Superman Got Another Pass
Look! Up in the cloud! Is it a livestream? Is it TikTok? It’s… a podcast about the 1978 Superman film! Jmike Folson joins Case and Sam for a crossover between the Men of Steel podcast and Another Pass. They’re looking at the movie that started the lineage of comic book inspired blockbusters and talking about how it almost didn’t happen.
SUBSCRIBE: Apple Podcasts • Google Podcasts • Spotify • iHeartRADIO • Stitcher • RSS
Another Pass Full Episode
Originally aired: February 17, 2022
Music by Vin Macri and Matt Brogan
Podcast Edited by Matt Storm
Certain Point Of View is a podcast network brining you all sorts of nerdy goodness! From Star Wars role playing, to Disney day dreaming, to video game love, we've got the show for you!
Learn more on our website: https://www.certainpov.com
Support us on Patreon! patreon.com/CertainPOVMedia
Join us on Discord: https://discord.gg/wcHHer4
PODCAST SHOWS: ▶ Another Pass - https://www.certainpov.com/another-pass-podcast
FOLLOW US: ▶ Website: https://www.certainpov.com
Notes
Impact and Production of Superman 1978 (00:00 - 06:04)
Discuss the monumental impact and troubled production of the 1978 Superman film, highlighting its legacy in shaping superhero movies and the depiction of Superman.
Casting Choices (06:04 - 11:33)
Analyze the casting process, especially the choice of Christopher Reeve as Superman and Marlon Brando’s involvement and behavior during production.
Technical Challenges (38:00 - 41:47)
Explore the technical challenges and innovative solutions for special effects, especially flying sequences, in an era before CGI.
Narrative Structure (53:37 - 55:06)
Review the narrative structure and pacing of the film, including the slow origin sequence and patchwork feel of time periods and settings.
️ Character Dynamics (01:00:35 - 01:08:09)
Examine the character dynamics, particularly Clark Kent/Lois Lane relationship and Lex Luthor’s portrayal, including costume details and motivations.
Production Environment (19:28 - 28:04)
Discuss the chaotic production environment, including the behavior of producer Alexander Salkind, director changes, legal and financial troubles, and cast hardships.
Musical Score (01:21:10 - 01:27:00)
Highlight the film’s exceptional musical score by John Williams and its lasting cultural significance.
Franchise Evolution (01:43:48 - 01:50:04)
Reflect on the broader franchise evolution, including sequels, spin-offs like Supergirl, and connected media such as the “Men of Steel” podcast.
Continuity and Character Details (01:25:30 - 01:30:00)
Address continuity and character details across the series, such as the fate of Martha Kent and Lex Luthor’s iconic baldness.
Cultural Relevance (01:27:00 - 01:30:00)
Discuss the ongoing cultural relevance of Superman as a project that merged comic culture with blockbuster filmmaking and set a model for future superhero movies.
Updates
Behind-the-Scenes Insights (02:27 - 03:07)
Multiple behind-the-scenes documentaries and books (Larry Tighe's, Superman vs. Hollywood) were reviewed leading to new insights into the film’s difficult production.
Marlon Brando's Salary (04:55 - 05:27)
Marlon Brando was paid $4 million during an era when that was a very large amount, reflecting his star power and on-set demands.
Film Budget (05:27 - 06:04)
The film’s budget was $55 million, with nearly a tenth dedicated to Marlon Brando and Gene Hackman’s salaries.
Visual Effects Techniques (39:44 - 41:47)
Early visual effects techniques were used, such as rear projection using the 'Zoptic projection' system by Zorin Perisic, pioneering flying effects.
Christopher Reeve's Transformation (31:32 - 33:58)
Christopher Reeve’s casting was innovative; initially a very skinny unknown accepted because of his look and acting; he bulked up to 240 pounds with help from David Prowse.
Production Relocation (27:41 - 28:04)
Production was relocated from Italy to England due to legal issues related to Marlon Brando’s warrant.
Director's Influence (28:50 - 30:49)
Richard Donner was hired as director late and was critical of the original script but worked extensively to improve it.
Awards and Recognition (01:40:16 - 01:42:31)
The film won multiple prestigious awards including an Academy Award for Best Visual Effects, BAFTA awards, and Golden Globe for its score.
Box Office Success (01:42:31 - 01:43:48)
Box office gross reached over $300 million, a financial success of its time.
️ Ongoing Podcast Content (01:50:00 - 01:50:04)
The “Men of Steel” podcast team shares ongoing content around Superman, connected storylines, and analyses.
Blockers
Financial Malpractice (19:28 - 01:24:36)
The producer Alexander Salkind was involved in money laundering and financial malpractice, leading to legal issues including Interpol arrest and constant budget instability.
Director Changes (27:41 - 28:04)
Multiple directors dropped out or were replaced due to legal constraints, personal legal troubles, or disagreements with production, affecting continuity.
Script Issues (28:50 - 30:49)
Script issues were significant; Mario Puzo’s original script went through over 15 rewrites and was considered terrible by the director Richard Donner.
️ Unsafe Conditions (43:01 - 22:55)
Actors faced unsafe conditions, such as stunt rigs dragging Christopher Reeve behind a truck and Margot Kidder’s on-set accidents, posing physical risks.
⏳ Delayed Quality Checks (01:21:00 - 01:21:10)
No sound screenings for test viewings were held because the producer withheld the film negative, delaying quality checks.
Narrative Confusion (55:06 - 55:06)
The patchwork nature of the narrative and inconsistent timelines confused some viewers, reflecting script and production challenges.
Character Arc Challenges (01:00:35 - 01:08:09)
Challenges with developing coherent character arcs; for example, the Superman-Lois relationship drew criticism for manipulative elements.
Lex Luthor's Hair Controversy (01:09:14 - 01:10:00)
Lex Luthor’s inconsistent hair vs. bald look was noted as a point of contention for comic accuracy and character design.
Production Challenges and Innovations
The making of the 1978 Superman movie was a chaotic yet groundbreaking effort that combined pioneering practical effects with a turbulent production environment (04:50).
Producer Alexander Salkind’s unconventional and risky financing strategies led to multiple lawsuits and delayed payments, yet the movie succeeded despite this instability
Salkind had a history of splitting productions to maximize profits, prompting the Screen Actors Guild to create the "Salkind clause" to protect actors’ pay
The production faced legal issues including Salkind’s arrest by Interpol during the film’s release, contributing to no official public test screenings before the premiere
The film’s extended shoot spanned over a year, complicated by location shifts from Italy to England due to legal and tax troubles affecting key crew
Cast and crew endured harsh working conditions and sleep deprivation, risking safety during complex stunt setups like the train running scene with Christopher Reeve suspended inches off the ground
Innovative visual effects techniques were developed in-house to create convincing flying sequences without CGI, setting new industry standards
Optical effects supervisor Roy Field and Zorin Perisic created the “Zoptic projection” system using zoom lenses and rear projection to simulate flight in-camera
Lightweight projectors (30 pounds versus previous 150-pound models) allowed dynamic background movement synchronized with actor zooming to enhance realism
Practical effects included real car crushing scenes with Margot Kidder inside, managed carefully despite inherent risks
These innovations earned the film the Academy Award for Best Visual Effects and influenced later blockbuster productions
Richard Donner’s directorial commitment was critical in salvaging the film’s troubled script and production
Donner rejected the original Mario Puzo script, insisting on rewrites despite resistance from producers who initially deemed it perfect
He worked tirelessly on set, often sleep-deprived, to keep cast energy high and push through delays and production chaos
Though he shot most of the first and part of the second film, he was later replaced, yet his foundational work enabled the movie’s eventual success
Casting and Character Development
The film’s casting combined unknown talents with marquee names to balance budget and star power, shaping its enduring legacy (31:00).
Christopher Reeve was chosen for his height (6’4”) and acting range despite being initially very thin at 170 pounds
Reeve committed to intense physical training, gaining up to 240 pounds of muscle with the help of David Prowse, Darth Vader’s body actor, to embody Superman convincingly
Early screen tests lacked scripted lines and focused on his appearance as Clark Kent with glasses, emphasizing visual believability over experience
Reeve’s theatrical family background added depth to his performance despite his relative newness to film
Marlon Brando’s involvement was pivotal in attracting other stars like Gene Hackman
Brando was paid $4 million, roughly a tenth of the $55 million budget, and reportedly delivered lines from cue cards held by an assistant walking backward for freshness
His eccentric behavior and legal troubles complicated production but his star power legitimized the project
Hackman’s portrayal of Lex Luthor, though criticized for the wig, was praised for its vanity and intelligence, fitting the era’s mad scientist archetype
Margot Kidder’s portrayal of Lois Lane balanced strength and vulnerability
Her accidental clumsiness during auditions was embraced to humanize the character
Production choices, like disallowing her to wear glasses on set for visual effect, contributed to Lois's endearing portrayal
Supporting roles were affected by unforeseen events, like Jackie Cooper replacing Kenan Wynn as Perry White after Wynn’s heart attack, showing the cast’s adaptability under pressure
Narrative Structure and Thematic Elements
The movie’s storytelling embraced a sprawling, episodic structure with a focus on origin and legacy, reflecting 1970s cinematic styles and cultural concerns (07:00).
The film unfolds slowly, dedicating nearly 40–45 minutes to Superman’s origin and Clark Kent’s youth before fully introducing Christopher Reeve as Superman
This pacing was typical of the era’s films and adhered to the superhero origin trope, emphasizing Krypton’s destruction and Smallville’s pastoral nostalgia
The origin sequence introduced a new vision of Krypton as a cold, crystalline world on the brink of environmental collapse, reflecting emerging 1970s concerns about pollution and global warming
The narrative was originally written as a two-movie arc by Mario Puzo with over 500 pages and underwent numerous rewrites to fit a single movie format
The final act was hastily restructured, incorporating the time reversal sequence from the planned sequel to provide closure due to uncertainty about producing a second film
Superman’s relationship with Lois Lane is foregrounded, sometimes at the expense of deeper conflict with Lex Luthor, highlighting early struggles to balance romance and heroism on screen
The film’s tone shifts between eras, blending 30s-50s aesthetics in Smallville and Krypton with 70s urban sensibilities in Metropolis, creating a patchwork effect that reflects its serialized origins and production complexity
Cultural Impact and Legacy
Despite production chaos, the 1978 Superman film became a defining blockbuster that shaped modern superhero cinema and popular culture (01:25:00).
The movie’s box office gross of $300.5 million against a $55 million budget established a profitable model for adapting comic book franchises into big-budget films
It demonstrated the commercial viability of superhero movies, paving the way for the boom of comic-based blockbusters from the 80s onward, including Batman (1989) and the Marvel Cinematic Universe
The film’s success helped legitimize comic book adaptations as mainstream entertainment, influencing decades of media across film, television, and comics
John Williams’ iconic score became inseparable from the Superman brand, delivering a heroic and emotional musical theme that remains a cultural touchstone
The score won multiple awards, including a Golden Globe and contributed significantly to the film’s enduring emotional resonance
The film inspired ongoing storytelling, including the current Superman 78 comic series which acts as a pseudo-sequel, demonstrating the lasting affection for this era’s portrayal
Its influence extends to later Superman adaptations, with Christopher Reeve’s portrayal serving as the benchmark for actors and productions aiming to capture the character’s balance of Clark Kent and Superman
The film’s production and legacy are celebrated despite its flaws, with awards for visual effects and performances underscoring its technical and artistic achievements
Process Improvements and Industry Influence
The 1978 Superman movie’s production introduced new standards in movie making practices and special effects that reverberate in today’s industry (40:00).
The film’s pioneering camera and optical effects techniques required extensive testing and innovation, establishing workflows for in-camera effects without digital tools
Creative use of zoom lenses and projection allowed dynamic realistic flight sequences, influencing the approach to practical effects in later blockbusters
The production’s willingness to experiment despite technical risk laid groundwork for future complex stunts and effects in superhero films
The challenging shoot schedules and multitasking between two movies’ worth of footage highlighted the need for clearer planning and contractual protections for cast and crew
The "Salkind clause" remains a legacy of this production, ensuring actors are compensated fairly when multiple films are shot simultaneously
The chaotic producer-driven financing model underscored the risks of Ponzi-style funding in filmmaking, prompting industry caution
The film’s approach to origin storytelling set a template for superhero narratives, emphasizing backstory and character development as essential components in franchise building
It influenced pacing expectations and narrative structures in subsequent superhero films and TV shows, establishing conventions still followed today
The partnership between director Richard Donner and writer Tom Mankiewicz (uncredited) showed the importance of creative collaboration in script refinement under production pressures
Strategic Talent and Franchise Planning
The film’s production decisions and casting reflected strategic priorities in launching a long-term franchise with planned sequels (10:00).
The choice to cast relative unknowns like Christopher Reeve and Margot Kidder for leads was balanced by securing marquee stars for key supporting roles to attract financing and audience attention
Marlon Brando’s involvement was primarily motivated by his high salary demand, but it was crucial in legitimizing the project and attracting Gene Hackman
Producers initially sought big-name stars like Robert Redford and Burt Reynolds, but ultimately prioritized physical suitability and acting ability for Superman
The producer’s insistence on filming two movies simultaneously was a financial gamble designed to maximize returns but resulted in a rushed and fragmented production
This strategy forced narrative compromises and complicated director assignments, with Richard Donner replaced during the sequel’s completion
The movie’s ending was altered to incorporate sequel elements early due to uncertainty of a follow-up, demonstrating adaptive planning under risk
The film’s franchise vision was supported by contemporary marketing efforts, including high-profile screenwriter involvement and publicized casting rumors to generate buzz
Subsequent franchise expansions included sequels and spin-offs like Supergirl, despite ongoing production difficulties and inconsistent quality
This approach marked a shift in Hollywood toward franchise-building around established intellectual properties, influencing blockbuster strategies through the following decades
Transcription
00:00
Case
Christopher Reeve has cast a shadow that has far exceeded the supermen who have come before. You know, George Reeves, arguably the most famous up until that point. But it was a TV show, it was low budget. A lot of it was black and white. It only was going to survive for so long in terms of the pop culture awareness versus, this was a big budget movie that like, had such a solid casting choice for these parts that could then become serialized, that could have sequels, that could be a thing that people would watch on Saturday mornings as they're growing up as kids and would continue to set the tone for how they depicted Superman in later media.
00:36
Case
You know, this is for a lot of the country and certainly the world, this is the exposure to an actual vision of Superman that wasn't just a hand drawing. Welcome to Certain Point of View's another past podcast. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review on itunes. Just go to certainpov.com hey everyone. Welcome back to another past podcast. I'm Case Aiken and as always, I am joined by my co host, Sam Alicea.
01:05
Sam
Hello.
01:06
Case
And today we are kind of doing a crossover with my other show because. Oh my God. In the studio we've got Jmike Folson.
01:13
Jmike
Oh my gosh, this feels so weird. What do I do?
01:18
Case
Yeah, and the reason that we are doing this crossover right now is because I was reading up on some movies and realized that Tyler Hoechlin, who plays Superman on Superman and Lois, has been in a bunch of stuff that I've seen and really liked. And I said, hey, Road to Perdition is a pretty good movie. And I thought that would be a lot of fun for us to talk about. And then I did some more research on it, and aside from the fact that it was an adaptation of an adaptation, every single step of the way, it was like a clear hit. It was a wonderful production that never had any flaws. And yeah, so we had to say, no, we're not going to talk about that movie.
01:55
Case
But this is a fifth episode and we wanted to talk about a movie that had a troubled production. And since we had Jmike here, we figured, let's talk about a movie that had a monumentally screwed up production that turned out to be kind of a trend setting movie that has defined honestly the later half of the 20th century and everything of the 21st century. And that is the 1978 Superman movie, Superman.
02:21
Jmike
Gasp.
02:22
Sam
Gasp. Gasp out loud. Gasp in Spanish Now.
02:27
Case
So for people who remember the earliest episodes of Men of Steel, this was actually episode two where we talked about the 1978 Superman movie. So I actually re listened to that episode, which, J Mike, you and I were there and so was Jeff Moon and our co host at large. And it was a lot of fun kind of just talking about in general. And I did some research at the time and I was familiar with some of the production issues. But since then I've read up more about the production. I've read Larry Tighe's book on the history of Superman. I've read Excerpts from Superman vs Hollywood. I've ordered it, but I don't actually have a physical copy. And I've watched a lot of stuff about the making of Superman and man, was this a fucked up production.
03:07
Sam
Yeah, that's. There are several I've watched. I think this week I watched five different behind the scenes movies that are cut into pieces on YouTube about this film. And they are all more batshit bananas than the one before. I watched. Like, it was like YouTube was like, oh, we're going down this rabbit hole. May I suggest this movie?
03:35
Jmike
But wait, there's more.
03:37
Sam
One of my favorite batshit like, facts that came out in these movies was they were interviewing Marlon Brando, talking about his process and how, you know, he insists on having a general idea. He insisted having a general idea of what his character was going to say, but not actually knowing the lines. And so he had the lines written on a cue card. So, like, he knew what the scene was. They would tell him, like, what the scene was. And then there was someone who was still standing next to the camera who had to walk backwards holding the cue cards with his lines because he thought only then could he give a fresh enough reading so that it would feel brand new to him and everyone else. And I was just like, you're on spinning things. You're making people walk backwards while you are.
04:34
Sam
Okay, yes, you're Marlon Brando. Fine. Oh, my God. That was fun. That was fun to learn today.
04:42
Case
Yeah. Marlon Brando, we'll definitely talk about a bit when we get into productions because, man, he's a character.
04:49
Jmike
Yeah.
04:49
Case
Oh, my God. Like later when he did the island of Dr. Moreau, he had an earpiece in just to feed him the lines because he just didn't give a fuck.
04:55
Sam
Yeah. Wasn't he, like, he got paid a lot of money?
05:01
Case
Oh, yeah, I think it was 4 million.
05:04
Sam
Yeah. Which during that time, I mean, like, now we hear about actors getting paid that all the time. But this is like 1977 when he signed on for this, because it took forever to make, right? So, like, that's a lot of fricking money. And during that time, like, that is a lot. I'm not going to do calculation to calculate for inflation, guys. You do the method.
05:27
Case
Well, I mean, it was almost a tenth of the budget.
05:29
Sam
Yeah.
05:29
Case
By itself, it was a $55 million budget movie for a movie that had to invent the types of special effects it was going to use. Like, this was the. This is the. The era of the beginning of Hollywood blockbusters. All these things that we now take for granted. This. This was its infancy. Like, early uses of blue screen, early uses of all these different types of techniques in terms of. I mean, the big stuff we'll talk about is the flying stuff, but, like, this is a movie that had to, like, just like, pull out every stop to make the production feel appropriate for a Superman movie. And they're still spending a tenth of the budget on their celebrities.
06:04
Jmike
Marlon Brando.
06:06
Sam
Yeah, yeah, mostly Marlon Brando and Gene Hack.
06:09
Case
Like, those are the two big ones on this one. Yeah. So normally we. We talk with everyone being like, what's your experience with these movies? What were your thoughts before you, like, started doing some research for it for. For these kind of fifth movies? J Mike, you and I actually did a full hour long podcast talking about it before, and we're Superman podcasters. We kind of have a different stance.
06:32
Sam
Is that guys do what.
06:34
Jmike
Yeah, I know, maybe.
06:37
Case
But, Sam, what was your experience with this movie before doing this deep dive?
06:41
Sam
Well, I watched it all the time on channel 11. Like, this is one of those movies that was always playing on network tv. Right. I did realize as I rewatched it today that I did not remember most of the half, like, first half of it, which means that I probably did not pay attention to most of the beginning, which I get because, like, as a kid. Right. That beginning part is fairly dry. Like, I found myself just being like, get to my favorite line already. Like, where. Where are we? You know, you've got me. Who's got you? Favorite line. Right. So, like, that's where I want to get. And like, 50 minutes in, that's when you finally get to Metropolis. Like, I actually looked at the mark. Like, I was like, what?
07:24
Case
Yep.
07:26
Sam
But, you know, this is, like, pretty essential. Like, this is an essential movie for any kid that grew up in the 80s. And, you know, definitely the 80s, maybe the early 90s. But this movie is always. Was always, like, playing on TV. Superman 2 is playing on TV. This launched a franchise, Right. And so there are, like, things that were, like, embedded into my memory, but it was Just really funny because there really. Honestly, they were only, like, bits and pieces, like small fragments of the beginning, meaning that I probably just ran around my apartment as a kid and then would stop and go, oh, God, they're flying. Finally. That's probably what happened. But, yeah, I mean, I think that, like, even to this day, I mean, I think Christopher Reeve is someone that I compare all my Supermans to.
08:19
Sam
Like, you know, again, this is my first Superman. You know, as a kid, this was my first Superman. So I think, like, you kind of go, oh, is this person, like, as good a Clark as Christopher? Is he as good a Superman? Because it's two different roles, right? So you're kind of like, oh, it's, you know, so this is, like, whether he's definitive for me or not. I don't know if that's the case, but I do feel like he is my marker, right? Like, I'm like, oh, like, this is like. And I think that's because he's one of. He was my first real exposure to Superman as a child.
08:55
Case
I think that's fair. I think that Christopher Reeve has cast a shadow that has far exceeded the supermen who have come before. You know, George Reeves, arguably the most famous up until that point. Because who really thinks about the Kirk Allan serials outside of Superman? Nerds. Like, but the George Reeves show had sort of, like, set a tone, but it was a TV show. It was low budget. A lot of it was black and white. It only was going to survive for so long in terms of the pop culture awareness versus, this was a big budget movie that, like, had such a solid casting choice for these parts that could then become serialized, that could have sequels, that could be a thing that people would watch on Saturday mornings as.
09:37
Case
As they're growing up as kids and would continue to set the tone for how they depicted Superman in later media. Like, now there's a comic book series running while we're recording this called Superman 78, which is just a fake sequel to the Superman movies in the style of, like, Chris Reeve as Superman and Gene Hackman as Lex Luthor and so forth. Like, you know, this is for a lot of the country and certainly the world. This is the exposure to an actual vision of Superman that wasn't just a hand drawing. So that makes a lot of sense. And I think that goes for a lot of people, especially because so much, like I said, came that came after it hearkened back to it. A lot of casting choices in later productions would be like, how does this compare to Chris Reeve?
10:17
Case
Not Just to Superman.
10:19
Sam
Yeah.
10:19
Case
As a concept, so that people would try to make it kind of look like that. Superman Returns is like an attempt at doing a pseudo sequel.
10:25
Jmike
Yeah.
10:25
Case
With an actor that they're like, oh, man, he looks like Chris Reed. Not. He looks like. Yeah. And, you know, Brandon Routh, I love. And he has gone on to do some cool stuff with the Superman property after that. But, like, that Superman Returns was like, yeah, let's do. We've got a guy who just looks like another guy. We can put him in the same. In a movie that's a pseudo sequel. Cool.
10:47
Sam
Yeah. Which is kind of not fair to him, but. Yeah.
10:51
Case
No, he got shortchanged by that.
10:52
Jmike
Yeah, he definitely did.
10:55
Sam
I'm glad we all agree on that. I felt really bad about that, actually.
11:01
Jmike
That whole story was. Okay.
11:06
Sam
Let's not get sidetracked.
11:10
Case
This movie is weird enough. I mean, for starters, the person who greenlit and produced this movie had never heard of Superman before. And then when he was convinced to do a Superman movie, he said, why don't we do two?
11:25
Sam
And so, I mean, that's logical. I don't know what you're talking about, Case. If I'm gonna do one, I may as well do two.
11:33
Case
Let's start with the beginning of this actual movie, because, oh, my God, this is crazy. And we didn't really talk about it that much on the man of Steel episode because we.
11:41
Jmike
This.
11:42
Case
I just wasn't as familiar with this part of the lore because, like, Sam, what you said in terms of, like, oh, yeah, it takes a while to get going. It takes all those things, like, exactly my experience, when I rewatched it for that, I was like, oh, wow, it takes 40 minutes before he's not young Clark Kent, before we see Christopher Reeves.
11:57
Sam
Well, I think. Here's the thing. I want to say this, especially for anyone who's younger, that the effects that you see in this film are astounding. And they're astounding for their time and for those of us who were children when this came out, or were children as it was playing on television, because maybe weren't young enough. This was like a magic movie. Like watching a person fly through the air the way that they had Christopher Reeves fly through the air was magic. The effects. Watching Lois Lane get trapped in a car and watch it almost get crumbled, that's magic. And so, like, I just, like, I want to say that for any of the young listeners, like Stephen, who would be like, I don't know, Sam, like, the effects now like, guys, what you can do with computers, amazing.
12:54
Sam
But all the things that they did without computers in this movie. And so for us, in our psyches, what we remember is the flying. So as an adult re watching this to go back to this very, like, very deep sci fi, weird feel of a beginning. That's a little bit trippy. I dig it. But I was like, what? What now? But I didn't realize, like, I forgot that Marlon Brando was in this much of the movie. Like, I just remembered him as a floating head. Like, I remember the beginning.
13:28
Jmike
He's Zordon for Power Rangers.
13:29
Sam
Yeah, I remember him. Like, actually, when I saw Zordon, I was like, that's just Superman's dad. But I. But I, like, I remember him, like, in the black suit in the beginning, like, talking. And I remembered him, like, holding the baby and. Or like, you know, talking to his wife with the baby and placing. And then placing the baby and, like, you know, in the ship. And I remembered that. And I remember the baby being shot into the universe. I kind of remembered the growth thing in this, you know, thing. I don't think I did. And of course, him being fine, found by his adopted parents. And then after that, just young Superman racing a train. And then I was in Metropolis. Like, that's what I remember. Like, there's a whole section of movie that I did not. Did not sink in.
14:21
Jmike
Yeah, because, like, you know what? This time I watched. I rewatched it. I didn't pay attention to it the first time because I was like, oh, I remember this part. Marlon Brando talking to General Zod and them. And I was like, wait a second. This looks very familiar. I've seen this part before. And when General Zod started shouting, I was like, oh, that's where they got it from. Okay, I see what they did here. You still are. Okay, movie, but I see where you got it from. Men of Steel. See, when this happens, can we talk.
14:49
Sam
About how unreasonable General Zod was at that moment? I mean, okay, like, I get it.
14:55
Jmike
To be my second in command.
14:56
Sam
This is not what the discussion's about. But I just want him to know, like, so it had to be unanimous, but he's gonna blame this one person. And I know it's like the final vote, but still, shouldn't you be mad at everyone? And, yes, I know they're gonna die, and so I get it. But also, like, no, this is not a fair thing for you to say, sir. Because you should be mad at everyone equally, not just me. And then you're Gonna offer me a job below you? Dude's crazy anyway. Come on.
15:23
Jmike
He didn't even get to like. We can rule it together. No, he can rule under me as like my second in command. It's up to you know, if you want to take it's there.
15:31
Sam
And then it was like, fuck your horse, fuck your children, fuck your whole generational line. I was like, bro.
15:44
Case
So that would be one of those scenarios where the script had different notes at different points. Because there were a lot of revisions on the script. Last time we, when we talked about this on Men of Steel, I was like, yeah, you know, it's a script by Mario Puzo. It's not like, it's not. He, he wrote a 500 page draft of the two movies and then it was rewritten like 15 times after that. It has nothing to do with that original script. But that means that there have been so many revisions that things that had plot points that were addressed in earlier drafts were removed. And by the time we get to this one, we like, they were cutting stuff to make this a movie because it is a long movie. Like it's 143 minutes. Yeah, it's two and a half hours basically.
16:27
Case
And it's. There's a lot going on in this movie and the stuff that's like sequel bait for the next movie that they weren't sure they were gonna get. They. They had to trim down some of that.
16:37
Jmike
Superman doesn't show up to like an hour and 10 minutes. Hour and 17 minutes into it.
16:43
Sam
Yeah, I think.
16:44
Case
Well, that depends on what you mean by like Superman showing up. Because there's the shot of him flying out of the fortress, which is out of the metropolis, and then there's the metropolis. Yeah, exactly.
16:53
Jmike
The helicopter scene.
16:55
Case
Yeah, yeah.
16:56
Sam
Clark shows up a little before that.
16:58
Jmike
But I mean.
16:59
Case
Right, but either way it takes 45 minutes before the lead actor is actually on screen. Yeah. Because it's just crazy. And you know, like some of that is the style of the time. Like movies were a little bit more slower paced at an earlier days. And some of that was an adherence to the sort of the structure of doing a Superman property. Like there is no Superman thing that doesn't open with the origin and like talk about the planet and try to like convey some of those details there. Like that's just how they do Superman stuff. The, the three part opening for the Animated series was like, all right, yeah, we're going to do a whole episode on Krypton and then a whole episode of Young Clark, and then the. And the very end of that episode.
17:39
Jmike
He'S where the trope started. Like, it's like every superhero movie after this, like, everyone always starts with, like, the beginning.
17:45
Case
I think there's some. There's some feet. Like, some actual backlash on that one, although not so much for Batman. And Batman has never started with the origin. Batman always does the origin later on to sort of set it up. And that goes back to the comics, too. It's like this weird element of, like, how they structure the narratives. Batman is always in media arrest. He's always there as a. As a crime fighter, and then you find out his origin mid story. Whereas Superman, we always open with. We're on Krypton. Here's Darrell. We're putting him in the rocket.
18:12
Jmike
Uncle Ben.
18:13
Sam
I mean, listen, Batman's a moody bitch. He's gotta be different. Like, he's just.
18:19
Jmike
He's gotta be that one person who's causing all the confusion. Yeah, of course.
18:25
Case
Well, and that would. I mean, that would be its own thing.
18:29
Sam
He's got real issues. All right. Got real issues.
18:32
Case
But going back to the origin of this movie. So 1973.
18:36
Sam
Can we just start a podcast just talking about the mental disorders of comic book characters?
18:42
Jmike
Batman is a billionaire who runs around beating up homeless people.
18:44
Sam
Exactly.
18:45
Jmike
Fight me. Fight me. I know. I'm right here. Okay.
18:50
Case
The cops aren't doing a good enough job beating up these people.
18:52
Jmike
Yeah, I'll take care of it myself.
18:55
Case
Batman's acab, but it's for opposite reasons. From what you think.
18:59
Sam
Yeah, he could just, like, open shelters and, you know, like, alleviate some of the issues that create these criminals, but he doesn't.
19:06
Case
And I know all the fanboys that are gonna be like, oh, he's got charities. He does all these things. And plus, there's all this additional. I know, I know. We all know. You don't need to go into it. It just. It is funny sometimes to talk about it. Yeah.
19:17
Sam
But he also builds guns to put on his car, so it's kind of like it cancels it out.
19:25
Case
But going back to 1973, when the.
19:28
Sam
Superman. Superman.
19:31
Case
So the producer for this movie, because we have to talk about Alexander Salkind, because we didn't talk about him when we did the man of Steel episode. Like, Alexander Salkind, the producer of this movie, had never heard of Superman before. His son was like, hey, this could be a good property. And Salkind is a crazy, messy bitch. Like, this whole production is full of messy bitches. But this is a. Like, this is one of the craziest ones. He is a producer who got into it mostly like half a Ponzi scheme. Like he just passes money around. He gets people to invest in things and then only if they succeed can he make money off of it or does producer style, like, oh, if it's a flop, then I can like pocket all this money kind of situations. Like, crazy guy in this scenario.
20:10
Case
So much so that the Screen Actors Guild had to create what was called the Salkin clause in contracts because just prior to this, he made the two part movie the Three Musketeers and the Four Musketeers by way of shooting two movies worth of material and then chopping it up in two and then releasing it that way. And SAG was. Was like, hey, none of our guys were being paid as if it was two movies. They were being paid as if it was one movie. And apparently that just became Salkin's like, modus operandi. And so tried to do it for this movie too, but by this point SAG had been like, no, you can't do that anymore.
20:41
Jmike
He caught on, but.
20:43
Case
But this guy's fucking crazy. Like, so traveled all over the world throughout his entire life. Never lived in Costa Rica, but had a diplomatic passport from Costa Rica, basically from. By way of bribing people. Was not able to be in certain countries at certain times. At the release of Superman, the movie was currently in jail because Interpol had arrested him.
21:02
Sam
Is this part of the reason why they didn't ever have like an actual screening or is that just because they ran out of money?
21:08
Case
I think all of the above, because.
21:11
Sam
They actually didn't do like. One of the amazing things about this is they went to box office without actually ever like doing test screenings of this film. Because I think by the time they were done with it, first of all, it had been in production so long. And second of all, because I believe someone mentioned that the issue with the producer had stopped them. They just needed to go ahead and sell the movie.
21:38
Case
Yeah, so there was a couple things that happened there. For one thing, Salkind was really nervous about Donner getting a negative of the cut of the movie because he didn't want it to be released without him controlling it. And he was holding it as leverage as long as he could for his contract to squeeze out more money from Warner Brothers. Basically, it was just this, like, again, it's a Ponzi scheme of a movie, which the fact that they made a good movie makes it even more insane.
22:05
Jmike
There Were so many ways this could have gone bad.
22:08
Sam
First of all, like all the new. There's so many ways this could go bad, but there are so many new technologies which we will talk about that were used and like practical effects where the actors could have been severely injured. It's one of the things that they talk about in one of the documentaries that I watched, which goes with like talks with a bunch of the effects crew and how they basically had a real, like a real car crusher, like crushing the machine that like Lois was in, like Margot was in. And they were like, but she was a real pip. And she just went with it. And I was like, wait, what? They were like, it wasn't gonna crush it all the way we had set where it was gonna crush.
22:50
Sam
I was like, but you don't know that this woman was inside of there. That's.
22:55
Case
Well, to be fair, she couldn't see how bad it could potentially get because they insisted that she not wear her contacts or glasses on set because it gave her a certain wide eyed glare as she walked around. That looked better for Lois Lane.
23:08
Jmike
Am I gonna die? No.
23:17
Sam
I mean just the fact that the guy was like. But she was a real pip. It was really simple. She was so brave and she was scrappy. And I was like, no, that's not scrappy. That's just like wanting to keep a job.
23:29
Case
Oh yeah. Because she and Chris Reeve, who were our two main characters were unknowns at the time. So like they didn't have any sort of arguing power, although they did sue the Sulkins, as did just about everyone in the cast at various points because they checks kept bouncing or being delayed. Money was just moving around like crazy. It was nuts. And part of this was that again it was kind of a producer style scheme to gather a lot of money. That's why an early investment that they did was they hired Mario Puzo to write this 500 page screenplay that was supposed to be two movies worth of script and that they could then advertise being like, hey, we've got Mario Puzo, the writer of the Godfather. And he wrote this like campy bit because he doesn't give a fuck about superheroes.
24:09
Case
And they could use it. And they would like, they would hire planes to fly over Khan with banners like saying like sulkind, Superman, Puzo. And like trying to advertise that like, yeah, we've got, you know, this famous writer and we're going, we're gonna put this production together. And like, you know, this was, this is why they were all about getting big names. And at first they couldn't get anyone for Superman because, like, man, the list of people who they looked at for Superman was crazy.
24:35
Sam
Yeah, Robert Redford, Burt Reynolds.
24:38
Case
Robert Redford's probably the best one in that list.
24:41
Sam
Paul Newman was offered the role, and there was like, a dream list that was never, like, offered the role, but, like, that Alexander Salkin wrote where he wanted. Muhammad Ali.
24:54
Case
Yeah. I mean, like, it wasn't offered.
24:57
Sam
Yeah.
24:58
Case
Arnold Schwarzenegger was on that list. They met with Sylvester Stallone.
25:01
Sam
Wasn't Clint Eastwood also, like, even though he was on the older side and like, James Caan.
25:06
Case
James Caan would have actually probably been pretty good for that one.
25:09
Jmike
Robert Redford, Superman.
25:11
Case
Yeah, yeah. Redford probably would be the best in that list. But, you know, part of the problem is that, like, you'd have to be Superman. Like, how do you have someone be like this big physical force and also behind all these special effects? The uncanny valley kicks in extra when you already know the person you're looking at. You know, like, if you can recognize them and, like, you can see that they are a human that is being held up in weird strings and, like, harness apparatus. That just is like, it's kind of crazy to think about that they lucked out and found anyone who could do the part. But for a while, they were like, yeah, let's get a big celebrity to be Superman. And when they realized they couldn't, they were like, all right, well, what about other parts?
25:52
Case
Can we fill it out with other people? And so the big linchpin on that was getting Marlon Brando, who was just wanted the money. Like, he didn't read the script until they were actually shooting the movie. And it was only then when he finally was like, oh, this might not be bad.
26:07
Sam
Yeah. And honestly, did he read the script or did they just tell him about it and then he read cue cards because that's what he admitted to.
26:13
Case
Well, knowing his lines is different. But Marlon Brando was the clincher in terms of actually getting casting like that, because then Gene Hackman agreed to do it because Marlon Brando was the attached to it.
26:28
Jmike
How much money am I making? All right, I'll pay attention.
26:31
Case
But they didn't. They didn't want a big name director. And they looked at a whole bunch of people, including Steven Spielberg, which I think would be the most interesting director that was on that list. But they were like, I don't know about this shark movie he's doing. Let's see how that turns out. And Then once Jaws came out and was a huge hit, he was too expensive for them and so they moved on. Yeah, but he was all about it before Jaws came out. He was like really into the idea of doing this movie.
26:53
Sam
So they say, I mean, yeah, anything could be true.
26:58
Case
Yeah, exactly. But that's a really interesting one to think about.
27:01
Jmike
Hey, could you imagine a Steven Spielberg Superman?
27:04
Sam
Yeah, it'd be amazing.
27:05
Case
I mean, certainly interesting stuff. But they bounced around to different directors until they ultimately got Guy Hamilton, who was going to, who was set to direct the movie. And it's like, all right, cool, we're going into production. And then it turned out that they were going to shoot in Italy. And it turned out that there was a warrant for Marlon Brando's arrest in Italy. So they're like, guess we can't do it there. I think it was, I think it was one of the movies he had worked on before was like declared like indecency or smut or something to that effect. And so it was like kind of like a more forgivable one. But like, I mean that, you know, that feels right.
27:41
Sam
Honestly, it's not really shocking when you say, like, Marlon Brando had some sort of warrant for arrest on the cavalcade.
27:50
Case
Of fuck ups that are involved in this movie is just incredible. So they had to move the shoot from Italy to England. And Guy Hamilton couldn't be in England for more than 60 days out of the year, otherwise he'd be in jail for tax fraud.
28:04
Sam
Wow.
28:06
Case
So they lost their director. And then they were looking to figure out who was the best director that they could get. And they had a couple of choices and they settled on Richard Donner. He had just had the Omen come out, so he was doing pretty well in terms of like being a rising star. And they called him up and infamously, Donner claims that he was on the toilet at the time when he got the offer. And so he gets the phone call and it's, my name is Alexander Salkind. Do you know who I am? And he's like, no, I have no idea who you are. He's like, I'm a big Hollywood producer, sure, I'm making Superman. I'm going to give you a million dollars if you can direct it. And he was like, oh, okay.
28:40
Case
And within an hour, a courier had arrived with the script. And Donner looked at it and was like, I can't make this movie. This is terrible.
28:50
Sam
And then he lived the rest of his life just making this movie. For the next two years no. Cause, like, in one of the interviews, right, they're interviewing. What's her name? Lois. Margot. And they're interviewing her, and she's just like, yeah, when were shooting in London, it was really terrible. You know, you'd go out to the location, and it was about 45 minutes away from where were staying. And then you'd get driven back, and, like, maybe you would sleep maybe 40 minutes, and you'd come back, and Donner was still awake. He hadn't left set. And I'm like, this is. Makes it even more dangerous that you're driving sleep deprived. Like, she's like. But really, he found a way to make us all feel more energized. And I was like, was he on uppers?
29:37
Sam
I can't prove it, and that's on speculation, but I just want you to tell that. Tell you guys that she stated that he still had so much energy and that he gave her the energy that she needed to keep going.
29:51
Case
Yeah, well, I mean, it was a brutal production in general, and, like, every step of the way had been kind of crazy. So, like, Donner, hating the script, called up his friend Tom Mankiewicz, who doesn't even get a writing credit on most of the sites. Like, if you look at Wikipedia, he's not on there. Let me check IMDb right now, because I'm kind of curious. Yeah. So Tom Mankiewicz didn't even get credited at screenplay. So, like, if you look on IMDb, he's not even listed. It's all the other writers who did the. The myriad drafts before that. But Donner was like. To talk to his friend and was like, can. Can we make this work? And came back to Salkind, who was like, no, the script's perfect. We don't need any rewrites. He's like, no, the script is not perfect. It is terrible.
30:29
Case
This is gonna be an awful movie. And Donner became convinced that he had to work on this movie because they were gonna destroy Superman. And he was like, someone who grew up loving Superman and so put the energy into it. And at this point, the Salkins having had, you know, multiple directors that couldn't work for various reasons, having had a meeting with Sam Peckinpah, apparently, where Peckinpah pulled a gun on someone.
30:49
Jmike
What?
30:50
Sam
Oh, my God.
30:50
Case
Yes, I know. Again, this is one of those productions where you're like, oh, my God. Every step of the way was just a giant clusterfuck. I can't get over that it was made, period. Donner, like, put forward, like, hey, we can do this rewrite, we'll make this work, and we'll shoot the two movies. And so they started shooting two movies worth of stuff while they were doing this like, crazy year long shoot that ultimately didn't even finish because of its own craziness. But so they go into it and they start working and they start looking at unknowns. And that's how they. They eventually like get Chris Reeve, who at the time was. He's six four and at the time he was £170, which is a very small person at that point.
31:32
Sam
Yeah, he actually describes himself as a beanstalk.
31:36
Jmike
Yeah, that's pretty true.
31:38
Sam
He was very thin.
31:40
Case
Chris Reeve, after, like really making an impassioned plea to do the part and claiming that he could put on the weight because he, quote unquote, was a jock in high school, convinced them to like, go check out an off Broadway show he was in where he played one character and his own grandfather in it. And they were like, oh, well, I guess he can act pretty well and he can do multiple parts. Like, yeah, you know what? This could work. But again, still beanpole. Like the right height, good face.
32:04
Sam
Yeah.
32:04
Case
Super skinny for Superman. Like J. Mike. When we Talked about Superman 3, we noted that, like, Chris Reeve by that point had actually put on enough muscle you could like. Weirdly, the best part of that movie is that he really looks like Superman there. Even more so than he did for the first two movies.
32:20
Jmike
He even had the beard and everything too. Your favorite Superman case.
32:26
Sam
Well, it's really interesting too, because he also said in one of the interviews I watched with him, he said that his initial audition for them didn't actually have any, like, script or lines. They literally, like, had him reached over and handed him a pair of glasses and told him to put it on. And then they were just like, okay, we'll call you. And that was it. They just let him leave the room. Like, they just wanted to see if he would have like a good enough face in the glasses. And they kept him on the list because he looked good as like in the glasses. So they would be like, oh, he'd still be handsome as Clark Kent. Like, that's what kept him on the list.
33:09
Case
Yeah, well, because I figured they could like pad out the suit or anything like that.
33:13
Sam
But my thing is, like, did they even have like a real script at the time that they put glasses on his face?
33:21
Case
Probably not. Although it also could just be. It was super uncomfortable doing the screen test with him because I don't know if you've seen the footage of his screen test, he's in the Superman suit and he is drenched through it. Like he sweats. Like, Christopher Reeve apparently is a very sweaty person and it's just like poured through the suit. Terrible blotches all over the place. And that was probably fairly uncomfortable for them, too. But to get him into shape, they brought on none other than David Prowse, who those who are familiar with the behind the scenes stuff will know, was the body actor for Darth Vader. Weird ass movie.
33:58
Jmike
Like I said, there are so many moving pieces in this thing, it's a miracle that it actually got done.
34:02
Case
Yeah. And he got him up in weight. He was like. I think he was at like 240 by the time he was actually like in the part. So they didn't even need to put padding in the suit.
34:10
Jmike
That's actually pretty good size for that. I'm 63 and I was very skinny in high school, so I can. Yeah, I can give credence to that. That's the fact that he got to 240. It's. I give applause for that.
34:23
Sam
Yeah. Apparently he said he ate four times a day, whatever he wanted, like high protein, high calorie diets, and then just.
34:31
Case
Did so much weightlifting because like 6 4, 170 pounds. Like I. The lightest I've ever been as a adult in quotes, because I'm still not really an adult. Was I was at 165 when I was like 22. And people would talk to me who had never known me before or really after, and they'd be like, you look unhealthily skinny and I'm five nine. Like, I'm not that tall. Like, so to be six four and that skinny is insane.
35:00
Sam
Yeah, yeah.
35:01
Case
Crazy to think about that. So he built up and he actually got that pause.
35:04
Sam
Was all of us imagining.
35:08
Jmike
Cat's very skinny.
35:09
Case
That's very skinny.
35:11
Sam
We were like, were all traumatized in that moment.
35:17
Case
And he was an unknown actor, so it's not like he was doing great. But his dad was a Princeton professor of theater and like, so it's not like he's a starving actor in the romanticized sense.
35:28
Sam
He got to play Audrey Hepburn's grandson in some play. So, you know, it wasn't like he wasn't working right.
35:36
Case
Supposedly when he called his dad to tell him that he got the part of Superman, his dad was like, man and Superman. George Bernard Shaw play. Great.
35:44
Sam
Awkward.
35:46
Jmike
No dad, not that one. The comic book superhero son.
35:55
Sam
No, no, it's. It's much more than that, dad. It's a serialized DC hero brought to life by an amazing, powerful Hollywood, I mean, producer. It's not a Ponzi scheme at all.
36:14
Case
Yeah, it's crazy to think like, so this was 78. So this is exactly 40 years after the character came out. There are people at this point who never really dealt with Superman. Like anyone who was like over 12 may have like actually been able to avoid it somewhat. I mean, obviously there's all the stories about like in World War II, them sending Superman comics to the troops and like, you know, there's the radio show, there's like a lot, there's a lot of media.
36:35
Sam
Right.
36:35
Case
But like, Salkin was like in his like 50s at this point and like was a refugee during World War II because he was Jewish in Europe. Like that was, you know, he just never dealt with that because he's like, I don't have time for that shit. Yeah, pop culture. What? I don't give a fuck. I'm running from Nazis.
36:53
Sam
I've been fighting for my life. Thank you.
36:56
Case
And now that I have survived, I am going to steal every dime that I can. Crazy guy. So they were Russian Jews. They fled to South America initially. So his dad's name is Mikhail Salkind and then changed his name professionally to Miguel Salkind.
37:12
Sam
I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do, but yeah.
37:14
Case
So then we're actually getting into the production of this movie and like we've alluded to several times, they, they found a Superman, they found a Lois Lane, who, like I said, Margot Kidder was this kind of. Also this kind of unknown, but she had the right verve and apparently she was very clumsy when she walked in for the audition and they were like, oh, we love that character detail and decided to sort of exacerbate that. Like, like being very strong willed but at the same time human. I guess it's the scenario of like, how do you, like, how do you humanize your adorkable girl in a movie? It's like, oh, you make them like a little bit clumsy in a way that like sort of makes them endearing and not like too, you know, too strong as a woman.
37:52
Sam
Yeah. I mean, she's got to walk into desks sometimes while she's making decisions. Yeah, yeah. Partially because you're not letting her wear glasses. I mean.
37:59
Case
Exactly. Yeah. It started off as an accident because she scratched her eye when she was trying to put her contacts in. And then they were like, no, that was the best take. And then that Just became the set policy.
38:08
Sam
Oh, Hollywood.
38:09
Case
Yeah. Crazy shit. Crazy shit. Yeah. And then they. Then they go into making this movie and they had to do all this stuff to make it work. Because the thing is, doing a Superman movie now doesn't sound insane. Superhero movies don't sound insane. But at the time, there wasn't like a CGI was not a thing you could just do. How are you gonna make people fly without it looking like they're attached to strings? Like, remember Star wars is the big movie that revolutionized the concept of green screen and using a camera moving around a static image to emulate flying. And that came out in 1977.
38:41
Sam
Yeah.
38:42
Case
Like, so all of our concepts of how you film something flying didn't. Didn't exist when they were making this movie. So I, I found some cool stuff that they did for this one. So obviously there's some shots where it's just like they. They are using trick photography to make a character look suspended. They. They do this thing where they create a body sculpt that they attach to your chest. And this is what they did for George Reeves for that, where you can be attached from the side. And so from one angle you won't see anything holding you up. But you can't, like, really move around. You can just have like a superimposed, like, moving background for like a side view kind of shot. But the. The thing that ultimately became this really cool thing. So the.
39:17
Case
The director of special effects, or pardon me, the optical effects supervisor Roy Field, developed this technique where what they would do is they would do rear projection. And they. They developed new types of projectors that were lighter than the ones that had previously been used. These are ones that were like 30 pounds instead of ones that were like 150 pounds. So that a person could theoretically hold them or that they could be positioned in ways that previously was not possible without, like, more intense rigs. So they would do. They would do rear projection, setting up the background that Superman would be up against. And the way that they would then make it work is that they would project the image of the flying background, but the projector itself was affixed to zoom lenses the same way that the cameras were.
40:03
Case
And in tandem, they would zoom and change the angles of things to make it emulate the. The effect of flight as if, like, so that the background would move in tandem with the way that the main character wasn't to give this illusion of the character flying. So, like, when he flies into the camera, they're. All they're doing is actually just zooming in on Chris Reeve, and then the background they're actually zooming out on. So they're doing all this, like, trick photography to. To create these, like, kind of simulations there. It's, like, really cool stuff.
40:29
Sam
Yeah, it's so cool. They. They. Basically, their biggest challenge, just to add to what Case is saying, their biggest challenge with all of these things that they had to do was to use as many different techniques as they had and try to mash them together to create the effects that they wanted to. And so this is, like, a brilliant way of taking two things that you already kind of know how to do, right? And that is being done and then mashing them together and coming up with, like, slightly new technologies or slightly new ways to kind of move these lenses around so that you're, like, creating something new out of something you have. Like, it is astonishing because all of these, in their own way, like, yes, some of them are camera, but it's all very, like, practical.
41:16
Sam
Like, people had to figure this shit out. Like, in fact, in one of the movies I was watching, they were talking about. Because at one point they had, like, a. Like, a wooden superman that they used for, like, tests and that kind of thing when they were working on the camera tricks and. And they were talking about it, and they show a clip of them testing, and someone wrote on the screen board, another damn test. Like, it wasn't even a number of a test. That was all it said was another damn test. And I was like, this is the level that they were. It was probably, like, so late in the middle of the night. And they were like, no, let's try it one more time and see if it works.
41:57
Sam
If we do this kind of, you know, if we, like, change the way that we're shooting in this angle and that kind of thing. And they were like, another damn test. I want to go home.
42:08
Case
Yeah. I want to refine what I said before. So it was Royfield, who was the optical effects supervisor. The person who actually developed it was Zorin Perisic, who developed the system called Zoptic projection, which is what. What we just described, using the zoom lenses and so forth. So forth. But I just want to make sure that we're crediting these people because they. These are groundbreaking people, like, developing technology that maybe not in full use today the same way it would have been at the time, because they had. They were just inventing it to do these effects. And we have CG in different ways now. But, you know, this is the early day of blue screen, green screen, I use that every single week, every video I make. I have some green screen element in there. It's huge. Like, all these.
42:47
Case
Even if we can do it more easily now in a computer, it's still a thing that you needed to figure out how to do in the first place. And the fact that they had to figure out how to do it in camera is even more impressive.
42:57
Jmike
It's a miracle. They perform miracles in this movie.
43:01
Sam
Yes, especially that no one died with the lack of sleep that was happening from all of these crews. Like, I was watching footage of when they do the scene with young Superman running along the train. This is like literally like o rig where they basically have him just slightly low enough to the ground so his feet are not touching the ground. And the camera's right on the truck and he's just hanging there. And they're basically like, okay, so you just move your feet like you're running, but it'll be okay because you're never gonna touch the ground. So, like, potentially your legs are not gonna break because we're basically. You're on a fucking truck. Like, you're like, that's how you're gonna do.
43:42
Case
We're dragging you at the tail of a truck.
43:44
Sam
That's how you're gonna do it, right? It's actually on the side of the truck, right? So like. So it's just like, it looked like this insane, like, look of a thing because they wanted the camera to be facing the train. And so they basically have him hanging like a hangman's noose on the other side from these, like, just like these extension. He's chained all the way in. And I'm probably sure that he was not comfortable at all. And he's just really, honestly inches from the ground. And then they're basically like, action. And he's just got to pretend that he's running. I mean, he's really running, but he's suspended in the air, kind of hoping that nothing happens to the truck. And, you know, one of the.
44:26
Sam
One of the people who was on the set was talking about how they had to survey the area that they were on because they were on a grassy part. And they wanted to make sure that they didn't hit any bumps because they were afraid that if the rig tipped over because it was a little top heavy, because he was hanging off the side, that if it went the other way, that the whole, like, the camera and everything would just tumble onto this person.
44:51
Jmike
Am I going to die?
44:53
Sam
No. Again, again, it was perfectly safe, guys. It was perfectly safe. But, you know, they made sure everything was flat and it was good. And we got a really good scene out of it.
45:05
Case
Yeah. So when we did the episode on Men of Steel about this, we talked a lot about the running scene. Because it is one of the more awkward special effects in this.
45:14
Sam
Yeah.
45:15
Case
On my rewatch this time, I. And I'm not sure because I. So this time I watched it on HBO Max. The previous time I watched it on the special edition DVD that I had. Maybe it's a shorter cut. I don't know. The scene seemed shorter and didn't bother me as much. So I don't really know because there are also a lot of cuts of all these movies. So that's also out there. Lots of unused footage, by the way, for reasons I will get into in a minute.
45:38
Sam
I mean, that makes sense. Makes absolute sense.
45:42
Case
But, you know, I think it looks fine for what it is. Running is really difficult to make look good. The best use of it I've ever seen, like, super speed running was in the movie Underworld, where Michael Sheen was running on a platform that they were moving so that everything around him was moving not nearly as fast because it was like running on a. Like a conveyor. Like at the airport conveyor platform. And that was, like, the best use I've seen of making a person look convincingly super fast. But, I mean, like, look at the Flash TV show. I enjoy that show overall. But, man, the running effects do not look good.
46:16
Sam
Yeah, I mean, I think. I think for the. One of the things that the visual effects team said in the documentary I watched was that they really wanted to make sure that his shadow was included. Like, they were very worried because they felt like they wanted that to feel as authentic as possible. And, like, I want to say that for the limited resources that they had and the fact that they actually used a real train, I'm going to say that I think that the scene still came out good. Like, I feel like the shadow is there. It's weird. But he's so light, you know, he's so light. He's running. And I think that it's an enjoyable thing, because why not Superman? He runs like feathers beneath him.
46:59
Jmike
Am I gonna die, guys? No, we're not gonna die. Listen, he'll be fine, guys.
47:06
Sam
Everyone in this movie could have asked at one point in this movie, am I going to die today? I feel like maybe, like, the people that were probably the safest was probably Marlon Brando and sometimes Gene Hackman. Cause their scenes relatively didn't require a lot of Whatever. But there was like, the unused spin. Like, there was a whole scene where there was supposed to be like a scene where it was supposed to be like this trippy thing where it was gonna show how Jor El and basically Superman's parents death. And so they basically spent hours spinning them on this rotating table thing just because they were pointing the camera down at them. And I was like, I'm getting motion sick just watching this. It's just the actors. Like, there was one where, like, Marlon Brando was on the floor and like. And.
48:01
Sam
And his wife was standing upright and she was like, standing over him and they were just spinning and she was looking up. And then there was like another where she was laying down and like, Marlon Brando was standing over. There was like several of these spinning disc scenes because I guess they were show. They wanted to show what was happening to them as Krypton was like, ripped apart. And this was going to be one of the things that they used and then they never used it. So for motion sickness factor, I say that was the one time that Marlon Brando could have been like, am I gonna die today? But mostly it was just his cube card guy.
48:34
Case
Yeah, well, Brando probably would have been on the horn for some money because the suits that they wore in the Krypton stuff apparently could not be touched by human hands. Like, they were these really reflective materials that if you touched with your fingertips, the oils from your skin would, like, destroy it. It was.
48:50
Sam
Okay, well, I take it back. He's. Everyone wearing those possibly should have asked, am I gonna die five years from now? Not today, but five years from now.
48:59
Jmike
Yeah.
49:00
Case
So I think this is a good moment for us to sort of shift into talking about the movie itself and what actually came of it in terms of the movie. Because we mentioned it's a little. On the long side, it's a little slow by some standards. But, you know, all those rewrites and so forth that went into it, all the. All these production hurdles. You know, a thing I find really impressive looking at it, is that there is very clearly an attempt to shoot each scene as if it is the type of scene you're trying to tell as opposed to one coherent movie. Like, Krypton looks like weird, crazy 1970s psychedelics. Like, all the characters have, like, Tron costumes so that they can be walking around and, like, reflective as crap and, like, looking like nothing from this world.
49:37
Case
The actual look of Krypton was codified here in a way that has been influential ever since by having this, like, sort of Weird crystalline structure designed to it, which crazy shit.
49:47
Sam
I heard they had one of the gentlemen who actually worked on Star wars work on that set specifically. Makes sense because it's kind of very Hoth like before Hoth. Yeah, yeah. He was just like, I'm just going to reuse this ice planet. Thanks.
50:03
Jmike
Nobody's going to use this anymore. I'm just going to take this over here.
50:08
Case
We've already shot our Superman. Krypton is destroyed. We can't go back to Krypton. So we can use it for a different world.
50:13
Sam
Reuse the figs you'd have and rewatching it.
50:17
Case
I was thinking about the point I made before the. The style of Krypton being this cold dead world is really first introduced here. It's not a thing. In earlier Superman mythos like Krypton blowing up was a tragedy because it was an advanced society of wonderful people. And they hadn't really done a look of this sort of like civilization on the end of its life cycle the same way. You know, I made a comparison last time to the Night Land where it is a. A world that is on the edge of even the natural resources, like preserving it, but they're like clinging to it all because they are advanced enough and have some desires, but they are kind of just also lying to the people being like, yeah, the world's not going to end soon. Like, we're smart enough to keep going.
51:04
Jmike
Are we gonna die? No, you guys are totally safe here.
51:09
Sam
No, it's fine, guys. There's a reality tv. The Bachelor is back. Sorry, guys.
51:15
Case
Well, and this movie came out at the beginning of our concerns about things like global warming, about things like environmental damage, like the idea that pollution was fucking up our world. The 70s is where we first start talking about it. You know, the EPA is established only like two years before that. So this is an era where people are actually starting to think about like, oh, can we destroy our world? Like, is it our fault potentially? Which, you know, I would argue was never thought of an earlier Superman property.
51:39
Case
But this at least creates the scenario where if at the very least it feels like the society as a whole is sticking their ears or like their fingers in their ears to like and go la la and ignoring it as opposed to, oh, it's just a big surprise, you know, like that was kind of the big thing of earlier stuff where just like, oh, yeah, there's some earthquakes, but like, who would think that this world would just like explode at random? And in this it's like, oh, well, you know, we are. We do have advanced technology. We are kind of being shifted off of our axis. Like the planet is no longer isn't in a decaying orbit getting closer and closer to the sun. And that's going to blow us or, like, cause us to blow up.
52:12
Case
This is where those ideas are first coming in and would then influence things like John Byrne's man of Steel Run and like, influence the Animated Series and all the things that would come after that.
52:20
Jmike
Yeah, because, like, I think it switches back and forth between those two storylines. It's like, I think I forget which movies and which TV shows have. Because the Animated Series has the earthquakes popping up everywhere. And I forget which other property has like the mining the core of the planet. And I. I never remember which second.
52:39
Case
Which one is the second one mining the core of the planet. I can't think of specific ones, but I. But like, those are discussed, like, as a thing that they're doing all the time now. It's all sort of become part of this, like, larger, like, oh, yeah, the Kryptonians kind of fucked up their world in a way that again, just wasn't part of the earlier stuff. The earlier stuff was just like, oh, yeah, it blew up.
53:00
Jmike
Oops.
53:01
Case
Only one person was smart enough to see that coming. But no one else could have possibly imagined it.
53:05
Sam
And he didn't tell no one.
53:09
Case
Well, that's because the Council said, don't tell anyone or otherwise we'll arrest you.
53:13
Jmike
Are you accusing me of treason?
53:15
Sam
No.
53:18
Jmike
Just don't tell anybody.
53:20
Sam
Keep your mouth shut.
53:21
Case
But of course, in the Krypton scenes, we do get the setup for Zod and for the super criminals. And that was because they were trying to make two movies at the same time. So there is Mo. That's the biggest spot where we're getting that, like all the. There's a lot of Marlon Brando stuff shot there, you know, as Dorel. There's all the stuff facade. It's all the sequel bait. And the original ending of the movie was supposed to be one of the rockets Superman was going to deflect into space and that was going to free them from the Phantom Zone. But that part didn't really happen. We get the Smallville stuff. It looks like a Norman Rockwell painting, you know, it does. It doesn't look like what a period appropriate, like late 50s, early 60s kind of era would be.
53:55
Case
It looks more like Pre World War II.
53:57
Sam
Yeah. This movie is very all over the place with its, like. I remember. So when I was watching this, you know, this first time, this first time as an adult. Adult. Well, you know, again, I use that term lightly. I pay bills. So I guess I'm an adult. So I think that's like the general like line now, right? Like the low bar. Do you pay bills? Yeah. Okay, you're an adult. I was like, really? I don't know, maybe it's because I watched this on TV a lot because I could see like Channel 11 or like TBS or any of those channels, like, cutting this off. Like, I didn't remember the comic book opening, like when they were like, they opened up and it was like in the 1930s. A new hero. Da da da. And then like, you. You're on Krypton.
54:43
Sam
It's just okay that Krypton feels different, right? But then you go to like Smallville and it kind of feels again, like you said, like Pre World War II. Like, it feels like, you know, like very like. And then you get to Metropolis and you get people that are definitely using 70s slang. And it's like, I'm confused. What, what era are we in?
55:06
Case
Like, yeah, everything feels like a little bit off. Like, the music that they play in the car, like Lana and like all the people when they like, leave Clark behind is rock around the clock. And like, that's like 10 years too early for like what would be an appropriate 26 year old man in 1978.
55:22
Sam
Exactly. Like, it's weird. It's like so like when his parents pick him up, it's like just like. It's like maybe right after the Great Depression or during. Right.
55:32
Case
It looks dust bowl.
55:33
Sam
Like, it looks like. And you're like, where are we? Are we in the 30s? Are we in the 40s? And then when he's like in high school, it's like everyone's going to the sock hop and it's like the mid-50s. And then you get to Metropolis and it's the 70s and you're like, did he spend that long in the Fortress of Solitude? Like, like, I'm like, I. It just. It's very jarring. And again, like, you said, this had so many issues. We're just lucky it had any continuity of characters.
56:06
Case
Well, I think it's deliberate. I think what they're trying to do is trying to make an argument of like, this is what you imagine that scene from the Superman comics looks like in each of each one of these, like, as contextualized in a movie. You know, like, the Smallville stuff has always been kind of period piece anyway because it was Always Superman's growing up period. And at this point, like, that had become so iconic that it made more sense to make it look like something from the. You know, like, anything prior to, like, the 60s, which is when it's actually set. It, you know, like, it. It wouldn't make sense for them to have, like, access to. Well, definitely not computers. But this is also on the early side for that.
56:43
Sam
Yeah, I was like, there's no. There's.
56:46
Case
Yeah. I'm not sure where I was gonna. What I was gonna say next immediately because, like, they don't explicitly say that Clark had an outhouse, but he probably had an outhouse. He probably didn't have plumbing at the Kent farm.
56:53
Jmike
Yeah, yeah.
56:55
Sam
I mean, they don't show it, so maybe he did.
56:57
Case
What's.
56:58
Sam
Let's not. What's that? That was also shot in Canada. So, you know, Lies all around. Lies all around.
57:05
Case
But my point is just that I think that they are making a deliberate effort to have each environment feel appropriate for the movie version of that environment. Like, a movie version of a story set in, like, a big city should feel like a 70s kind of, like, snappy dialogue. I've noticed that it feels very 9 to 5 at spots, which maybe. Maybe not quite as progressive as 9 to 5, but, like, Lois is, you know, a very take charge kind of person. Like, all the newsroom stuff feels, you know, like the kind of stuff that you would feel in like, a 70s drama. Like that, I think works really well for the setting that they're in and making it feel like a real place. Whereas, like, the.
57:42
Case
The Smallville that Clark comes from is this halcyon, like, flashback kind of thing that we just happen to be watching in chronological order. And likewise, Krypton is supposed to be like, look at this weird alien world. It looks like nothing that we have, and it really doesn't look like anything that we have. So, like, each. Each step is getting us to the point where we get to, like, okay, now we've got this, you know, tall drink of water, walking around, like, chatting, like, having, like, punchy dialogue with, like, his. His lady colleague. And, like, you know, like, one of my favorite shots is when Lois is lecturing Jimmy and she's saying, like, a good reporter. And then, like, she walks in and, like, Perry finishes off the line.
58:19
Sam
No, actually, the newsroom stuff is pretty great. And I feel like all the co workers are pretty great. I feel like actually a lot of the dialogue between characters is great. I mean, like, we haven't even talked about Lex Luthor and His band of merry men is what I'm going to call them. And just. Just like, you know, no one's going to get this but Kaysoni. But Lex Luthor and Vachon Trent are the same person in this film. And that's just for us. I'm sorry, guys.
58:52
Case
No. People may have listened to the Birds of Prey episode.
58:55
Sam
That's true. If you haven't gone back and listen to it and then you'll understand why. Because I think sometimes he thinks we're the idiots in the room and we're lucky to know him and Otis Berg. But I have to say that the film. You're right. That the film, even if from a practical, even a truthful sense, because they kept saying that in the documentary, is that they were like. They wanted this to feel as truthful as possible. It may fall short, like, if you're actually looking for real continuity of timeline, but it does look the way you think Superman should look. Like, in terms of like, the different eras of how long Superman has been around and like bringing. Dragging the character into this modern era by the time you get to Metropolis.
59:54
Sam
So I understand what you're saying and I agree with you, but it still ignored me.
59:59
Case
Yeah, no, it does feel like a movie that is a patchwork of. Of stuff. And that's, you know, like, again, there isn't a central plot to this movie. You know, on the Men of Steel episode, I kept talking about how, like, it's weird that Clark's not investigating Lex. Like, that's not. He's not on that beat. It's. Lois is investigating a separate thing that leads her to Lex. But it's like, weird that you, like, he's an investigative reporter. You would put him in some way that his, like, his secret identity has him clash with Luther. Also from a modern screenwriting perspective. And they don't do that. Like, it's more. It's more this, like, baiting between the characters.
01:00:35
Sam
Actually, in a lot of ways, Superman is the supporting character to Lois Lane in this film because she's the one that's really like. Because his main motivation is where is Lois, Right. Pretty much all of the time. Like, he's just here to romance. I don't even know if he's here to save Metropolis from a troubless. I think he's here to find a wife.
01:00:58
Jmike
Hey, Lois. Hey. Are you free tonight? I'd like to ask you out on a date. No, I'm kind of busy. You do?
01:01:02
Sam
Okay, guys. Being from a modern lens, isn't it a little bit Weird. I mean, just like, a tiny bit weird that he, like, has a date as Clark Kent, and then he, like, doesn't show up as Clark, but shows up as Superman, is like, oh, do you have plans? And she's like, no. And I know, like, this is a gift, right? Because, like, he's giving her the exclusive interview. Like, he's making sure that she's home. But also, it feels, like, weird and a little bit manipulative because then he shows up later as her date, and he's like, oh, sorry I was late. Ready to go out. We're gonna have a great time. And she's still, like, still in a daze over, like, being near Superman. Then she, like.
01:01:41
Case
And he, like, kind of gaslights her a little bit.
01:01:43
Sam
Yeah, he does.
01:01:44
Case
He's like, didn't you hear me knocking?
01:01:46
Sam
Like, he's like, did you hear me knock? And she's like, oh, no. Cause she's like, so, like, you know, in the days. Because Superman took her flying, which, by the way, yes, magical. But that girl, she would have been cold. It is cold up in the air. Like, that outfit was not flying appropriate. I just. I've always thought that since I was a kid. Like, I was just like, her hands would be so cold. Like, I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, okay, anyway, only me. So these are things that I've thought since I was, like, eight. So I'm so glad that I get to verbally vomit this to all of you now. And. But he shows up, and he's just like, oh. And then when she goes in her room to get her purse, he takes off his glasses.
01:02:37
Sam
And you think he's gonna be straight with her. He just can't do it. He just puts it back on, and that's fine. But he's still, like, really pleased at how giddy she is to be around Superman instead of the fact that. No, bro, the person that you're gonna have to live as is you. This is a weird kink. Superman. I'm not sure. See, from an adult perspective, I'm not sure that this is the route you want to go in. This seems unhealthy and toxic behavior. I'm fine now.
01:03:14
Case
It's always like, the Superman Lois relationship is a tough one to make work. Because for that reason, honestly, Clark Kent should be the one to win her. And win even sounds kind of like a woman as prize scenario. Hey, Sam Wilson. We've got that T shirt, by the way. If anyone wants it, you can find it@ certainpow.com that is always a problem with that dynamic, which is why I think works that I've tried to sort of explore the characters more recently, have done the right thing and, like, leaned towards them already being together. Like, it's a thing I really like about Superman and Lois. Like, they've gotten past that point. Like, that initial flirtation should happen if you're doing the. The big story from start to finish. But there.
01:03:57
Case
There are some difficult aspects of the trope that you kind of need to either move past or. Or put forth a convincing argument for why they're there in the first place. And, you know, a lot of people have written really good stories kind of exploring, like, the secret identity of superheroes and how that affects romance. But, you know, this is one. This is just doing the front side of it, and it's early enough in terms of, like, adaptations of it all. Yeah, it's a little gaslighty still. It's like. Still, like, there's a little bit of cringe.
01:04:24
Sam
Okay, now, second thing that was a little cringe. Lex Luthor's love, His. His hostage, his female companion, Ms. Desmocker, when she. When she saves Superman. Before she saves him, she kisses him. And when. When he's finally free of it, he said, why'd you kiss me first? And she said, because I thought you wouldn't let me do it after I released you.
01:04:53
Case
Yep.
01:04:54
Sam
Guys, that's not okay.
01:04:58
Case
It's not consent.
01:04:59
Sam
And then he, like, she's like, why can't I fall for a nice person? And would be like, because you fucking sexually assaulted him. You're not a nice person.
01:05:08
Case
Why don't the good ones ever go for me?
01:05:11
Jmike
I wonder why.
01:05:13
Sam
Possibly because, like, your boyfriend was like, hey, I'm gonna blow up a bunch of things. And you were like, okay.
01:05:19
Case
Yeah, yeah. She doesn't care about any of that except her mom.
01:05:23
Sam
She wants it.
01:05:23
Jmike
Yeah.
01:05:24
Sam
Yeah. She makes Superman promise to go save her mom first.
01:05:28
Case
Right?
01:05:28
Sam
Yeah.
01:05:29
Case
As opposed to all of California.
01:05:31
Sam
Yeah. Well, I mean, her mom does live in Hoboken, I guess. We want to save Hoboken. And this is coming from a New Yorker. I do. I know. Jersey. Whatever. But, you know, like, I feel like Hoboken's done some nice things some of the times, and I don't think they deserve to die, so.
01:05:48
Case
No. No one should die.
01:05:49
Sam
Yeah. I'm just saying. No.
01:05:53
Case
Yeah. No. And, like, he's also not saying, like, oh, more people live over here versus over here. Because, like, you know, the California one was gonna hit the fault and destroy everyone. There versus, like, the other one would just be like, blow up a hack and sack and like, you know it's going to be gone and like, whatever. But like, Superman's not saying, oh, but the needs of the many right there. He's like, no, but Jimmy and Lois.
01:06:14
Sam
It is an emotional to an emotional battle for him. So. Yeah, also, Lex Luthor is right about real estate in New York. Just want to back him up on that. He. They do have a great address, even if it's subterranean and you have to enter by the subway in a secret passage. Listen, dislikes Luther. He's brilliant. He's wonderful. Kudos.
01:06:42
Case
Yeah. I mean, like, from the real estate perspective, aside from like, you know, the actual science on, like, what would happen to the coast if it, like, were to occur. Like, it wouldn't be like a place that you could like.
01:06:51
Sam
Oh, yeah, no. His evil plots have no bearing on my stating that he's brilliant. It's all real estate related.
01:07:00
Case
That's true. Yeah. I mean, it's certainly at least an interesting supervillain plot, like, for him to do. And like, he's got a. He's got a cool base and he's a lot of good plans. He does exploit his female associate to get everyone to like, when they, like, stop the missile convoy. And it's like, oh, they should all give mouth to mouth. What the fuck?
01:07:19
Sam
Yeah, yeah. No, he. I mean, but he is a bad guy, so. And also, he does come up with a good plan with the high frequency to reach Superman. So I, I would say that there is, like a level of intelligence. I feel like there could also be like just a whole podcast ranking different level of intelligence of Lex Luthor's versions.
01:07:39
Case
But the Luthor cast.
01:07:41
Sam
Yeah, Luthor cast. But I would say. I would say that I'm gonna put him like, in a top high median range. Like, he's not like in the top five, but he's definitely smart. Like, he had a way to reach just Superman that I thought was like, oh, that's. Yeah. I did feel bad for all those dogs that were also annoyed by the sound and who were very confused by the message for Superman once he started to talk.
01:08:09
Jmike
Superman. And who's talking to me?
01:08:12
Sam
Who's Superman? And am I a good boy? That's what I need to know secretly.
01:08:17
Case
This was actually a crypto movie and were just built.
01:08:21
Sam
I mean, honestly, that's the only thing that could have made this movie better.
01:08:24
Case
Let's talk about Gene Hackman for a second. Since we're talking Luthor stuff. So he was the second big name that they brought on because heard how much money Marlon Brando was getting and he was like, they're giving that much money? Like, yeah. Some people complain about him not being bald throughout this whole movie. On the one hand, it. We are not getting like the proper bald Lex Luthor. And I would. Would like if in all future stuff he was appropriately bald, like Superman 2 stuff. But in this movie, I was okay with him being wearing a wig for the majority of it because he is very vain. And I think that's a good character trait for him. Like, he does come off as like a good antithesis of Superman.
01:09:00
Case
Like, he's got a cool layer like Superman, but it's like underground and it's kind of a stolen one as opposed to one, I was about to say, like a more noble one, like the one he inherited from his father, which is, I guess, yes, that's any good.
01:09:14
Sam
May I ask why Is it just like a preference for bald men or is like, do you. Is there a reason why you feel like you need your Lex to not.
01:09:25
Case
Have hair just from a standpoint of being comics accurate? Yeah, like, and I realize that's not a, like, look. I, I get that, like, hair color. I get it all these things, but bald is easy to do.
01:09:35
Sam
Oh, well, I was going to say that. I was going to joke that you feel that bald representation matters, but.
01:09:44
Case
But no, I don't. I have so many things wrong with me in general. But, like, physically. But like, bald, not my issue. That's like the one thing I've got.
01:09:53
Sam
Going well, I mean, like, I just like, for me, like, I guess the only time hair matters to me is like, when it's a real texture issue. So like, for instance, like in the future, like, they've already hired an America Chavez and she's not from the right island. The actress who's playing it, and her hair is bone straight. And I kind of feel bad because this was a good chance to have an Afro Latina representation in a Marvel property in the future. And so that's the only time that I really have that's a texture issue that I have a problem with. Like, the actual hair that's, you know, But I don't know. I don't personally care if Lex is bald or not. Like, do I feel like they look like a Lex that's bald looks a little shark? Like, and that makes me happy.
01:10:47
Sam
Yes. But like, as long as Lex has always looks impeccably dressed and is always like, vain. I'm fine with Lex having hair, but that hair better be like the most amazingly coiffed hair.
01:11:04
Jmike
Golden locks.
01:11:05
Sam
Like, it's gotta be like.
01:11:07
Jmike
No, like Fabio.
01:11:08
Sam
Even if it's. Well, I don't know if I'd go Fabio, but I mean, like. But it should look sleek at all times. Because I feel like Lex has to give you that sense of a very neat and put together. I like him bald, personally. And I know that I just made fun of you because I feel like if you commit a crime, your hair can be held as evidence, DNA evidence. So if you're bald, you leave less behind. But, you know, and I feel like Lex is just that kind of smart and also feel like he could be a germaphobe.
01:11:43
Case
Well, so I guess here's the other part on that. So Lex Luthor, going back to when he first showed up, had hair initially, and then it was an artist error that made him bald going forth. But they, rather than just be like, oh, we up. And either like, just like, kept him bald and didn't say anything about it or gave him back his red hair, they decided to make it part of his origin story as a supervillain. So, like, Lex Luthor lost his hair by way of Superboy accidentally putting it on fire in his lab.
01:12:14
Sam
Okay, now you convinced me. You can always be bald.
01:12:18
Case
That's why actually the best modern adaptation of that has been Smallville. He's bald. And that's like a big pain point for him. Like, that's part of his vanity. Like the. It is very much the same thing as Dr. Doom, but with a way more trivial issue.
01:12:32
Sam
So what you're saying is that Lex Luthor must be bald so that one of the things that he hates about Superman is hair envy.
01:12:41
Case
Yes.
01:12:41
Sam
Okay. Yeah, sold. Lex Luthor must be bald.
01:12:45
Case
So that's why I'm actually okay with the scenario with him having her in this movie. And if his. If the wig is taken off or whatever and he's unveiled to everyone as being a bald man because Superman captured him. Like, I think that I think works to sort of keep that element of that issue.
01:13:01
Sam
It would have been great if Hackman had the hair on and then the hair had blown off at some point. That would have been amazing.
01:13:08
Case
Yeah, well, and that's why I think, like, future stuff should and why I'm okay with them having hair in this movie. Like, I think that the end of the movie where it's the reveal works and it's just like kind of a bummer that he keeps putting wigs on later on. Like it's nice as a reveal point that I think that part works. But, but the big reason for why I like having Lex be bald in movies is because that's an iconic part of the look. And like some characters, it doesn't really matter. But for a character who's like famous for being one of many mad scientists and the bald one, like that's where it's like, oh, come all right, come on. Like you know you're not, you could cast literally anyone and have them wear a skin cap. It doesn't matter.
01:13:48
Jmike
Be it technically classified as a mad.
01:13:50
Case
Scientist this era of Lex. Yes, absolutely. A mad scientist.
01:13:54
Jmike
He's more of like a weird. Well, I guess, nevermind, take it back. He would be a mad scientist.
01:13:59
Sam
I mean I know that he definitely experimented on those poor dogs.
01:14:04
Jmike
Yeah, I'm always thinking of like the animated TV series where he's like more of a like real estate agent businessman.
01:14:10
Case
Lex came in the 80s and that in the wake of this where they did try to have some sort of like financial goals besides just being like super fuckery, which was kind of his whole modus operandi for like from the 40s through the 70s.
01:14:24
Sam
And it makes sense because the 80s was an era of greed and so there, you know, that was always like something that in media would kind of pop up. Right, like businessmen. Evil businessmen.
01:14:35
Case
Yeah, I mean like if you look at his 80s version, he's designed to look like Donald Trump. And then funny how that played out and took his brain and put in a clone body that had long Fabio esque hair. I just want to note, I was.
01:14:49
Sam
Listen, here's the thing. The next Superman, I want Lex Luthor to start with the Fabio hair. I want some sort of weird thing that happens around when Superman's around for him to lose all of his hair and for him to constantly bring it up that the fucking alien made his hair go away. And I want pictures on his wall of him with his hair looking like Fabio in the background of every movie.
01:15:17
Case
With an Australian accent. Because that was the other part when he faked his death and pretended to be his own son. But actually in a clone body he had listened to tapes that give him an accent so that he could pretend to be this other person.
01:15:28
Sam
Absolutely. All of this, I want all of this, all of those things. You know what, animated shirt would be fine for me. I'll take it. Anyone? Anyone?
01:15:39
Case
Please clone Lex. It's great. And it can tie into Con El Superboy stuff. You can do so many things with it. Side note, that version of Flex was also sleeping with Supergirl, who was an artificial reconstruction of Lana Lang turned into an amorphous gel that could take the form of a blonde woman. Comics are weird.
01:15:57
Jmike
Comics are very weird.
01:16:00
Case
But so was this production. And this production had other hurdles that we should talk about. One thing I wanted to reference is the casting for Perry White. I think Jackie Cooper did a great job, but he was not cast to be Perry White. The person that was going to be Perry White was Kenan Nguyen, who had a heart attack right before they went into filming.
01:16:16
Sam
Oh, my God.
01:16:17
Jmike
Wow.
01:16:18
Case
And so they. He had to drop out. And I survived, thank gosh. I mean, I have not looked up.
01:16:24
Sam
Yeah, we both stopped speaking, just so you know. We were like, I was about to start.
01:16:28
Case
Survived at the time, but could not continue being in the movie. So the cast. Jackie Cooper, who I think did a pretty good job as a Perry White. Like, I think that he sold the gruff businessman type. And he's one of the mainstays that then remains with the franchise for all the success of movies.
01:16:41
Jmike
Even number four.
01:16:42
Case
Yep. Actually, it's a big part of number four when we eventually talk about that on man of Steel.
01:16:49
Sam
You look like you're looking forward to that.
01:16:51
Jmike
Oh, man, I thought you forgot about that. I brought it back up.
01:16:55
Sam
Everyone listening. Mike's face is just filled with so much joy about this future conversation. I just want you to know he is looking forward to it. I hope you all tune in for it. It's going to be amazing because he is so happy.
01:17:09
Case
I mean, I've been seeing a lot of talk about the original cut of Superman 4 actually getting leaked at some point. So it might actually come out at some point in the next year or two because there's all of a sudden some movement, or maybe it's just people inspired by the Snyder cut being like, oh, well, any rumored cut could eventually come out. Yeah, who knows? Superman 4, giant clusterfuck of a movie. We'll talk about that at some other point. This movie pulled it off, but getting into the third actually didn't have a solution to how they were going to end the movie because they didn't know if they were going to finish filming on time. And in fact, they didn't. But. And they didn't know how they were going to write it all together. And just.
01:17:47
Case
It didn't seem like they had a third act. Like the movie again was written as two movies. And so the only end that they really had for this movie was the release of the Phantom Zone criminals. And that wasn't a guarantee that they were going to be able to finish and make a second movie. So they decided to do what Lucas did with Star wars and take the ending of the whole story and put it at the end of the first movie so they could get it out of the way. And because they had a lot of it already shot, so they took the ending of the whole two part movie that they were doing, which was Superman turning back time, and inserted that here as a way of like concluding the arc of this movie.
01:18:25
Case
And that was because they were not guaranteed that they would be able to make Superman 2. And if this movie bombed, they definitely wouldn't be. So they might as well just use the stuff they had and work it in. I would argue that is a pretty creative scenario in a world where they only made one movie, it is frustrating to look at it in a world where they never. Where they eventually did make the second movie and then had to have the memory wiping kiss because Superman can't stop gaslighting Lois Lane.
01:18:50
Jmike
Yeah, I think Robot Chicken made fun of that for like a whole season.
01:18:54
Case
Oh yeah.
01:18:56
Sam
I mean, that's bad. Yeah, I'm gonna wait a little while before I watch it because after I finished this I was like, oh, maybe I'll watch too. But you know what? Now that you brought that up, I'm gonna wait. I'm gonna wait a little bit before I watch it.
01:19:08
Case
Well, the version you could watch and not have to deal with that issue is you can watch the quote unquote Donner cut which is actually the beginning of all these. Like, well, maybe we can recut the movie to be the way that we wanted it kind of scenario because that was actually released in some forth because Richard Donner didn't finish the, this giant production. They, they just barely got Superman 1 out the door in time to make it to theaters as we had discussed before. And when Donner was going to come back to do the finished the basically reshoots, but like the actual finishing of the filming for Superman 2, he was fired. They were like, no, we don't want to work with you anymore. But he'd already shot like a shitload of the movie because they were shooting it all together.
01:19:44
Sam
Right.
01:19:45
Case
And Richard Lester, best known for doing a bunch of Beatles movies was brought in to do and he also directed the three and four Musketeers which is why he was working with the Falcons, was brought in to do those movies. So the Donner cut uses the original ending because at the time, they're like, well, we'll just write a new ending when we get there. And he never got the chance to write a new ending. So they only had the footage from what the original ending was, which was the Turning back time, or they used the. The Forget me Not kiss. And I don't think he even could use that because that was all shot that Lester shot. So, yeah, so that's. That's what happened there. But, yeah, so they. They were shooting. He basically shot one and a half movies.
01:20:26
Case
Barely got one out the door, and then the other one, someone else came in and got the credit as the director for.
01:20:31
Jmike
It's a miracle we got this first movie out.
01:20:33
Sam
I keep saying that. Yeah, it is. It is honestly a miracle that, like, people didn't get hurt, but no one died on set, and that, like, for the most part, people made it through with most of their sanity.
01:20:51
Case
Yeah. And, like, all the. All the screenings that they did up until the actual release of this movie was without sound because of how crazy the Salkins were about, like, holding on to the negative. So no one got a chance to look at what this movie was going to look like with the soundtrack. And that's the last thing we have to talk about, because it is the most amazing part of this movie and the most enduring part of its legacy.
01:21:15
Sam
Yes.
01:21:15
Case
Yeah. John Williams score.
01:21:17
Sam
Yeah. This music is Superman. I mean, at least for me. Like, as you know, like, this music is, like, when you hear that, I can't do more than that, probably. I was like a couple of notes. Just a couple. Don't finish the phrase. But you know, when you hear that, like, you're just waiting for that musical phrase to end, which I've probably annoyed some of you listening to this, who just want to complete that. Go ahead, complete it for yourself. You know the notes. Good job, everybody. So it perfectly encapsulates how larger than life this character is. Right. It's that big, booming sound that Williams is known for that's just heroic and heartfelt, and you just, like. It's still, like, hearing the Superman theme still makes me feel warm inside. Like it does.
01:22:12
Case
Well, yeah, like. So I rewatched the second half today, because I rewatched it earlier this week and was like, oh. At a certain point, I just stopped taking notes because I was just, like, watching the movie and enjoying it. I was like, all right, I need to watch and take some notes on this one. And you get to the end of that movie when he drops off Luthor at the prison and he says, like, we're all on the same team. And then the music swells and he takes off and it's fucking perfect right there. That's the exact moment. Because that is thesis of Superman, is that he's a beacon to show us all the way to be Superman. Like, that he's supposed to be inspiring us to better people and that our society can eventually get there.
01:22:52
Case
And, man, that music works so well to sell that point.
01:22:56
Sam
Yeah, absolutely.
01:22:57
Case
Fun fact that the two of you missed out on because you guys did not attend my wedding. But Matt, our editor, will know because he was there, which is that we had a string quartet playing. And one of the songs that they played was the Lois the can you read my mind song, which is a very beautiful song when you don't have the lyrics.
01:23:13
Sam
Nerd. I approve of it, but I still wanted to say. Nerd.
01:23:19
Case
Sorry. I just wanted to give the two of you guff because neither of you could make it.
01:23:22
Jmike
I'm sorry.
01:23:23
Sam
Hey, listen. Some of us had to work.
01:23:27
Case
I know, I know. I'm just. Like I said, I'm just giving it.
01:23:30
Sam
Because, you know, even though it doesn't seem that way, we are adults. Am I sitting in an Oscar the grouch T shirt right now? Yes, I am. But I paid for it.
01:23:40
Case
We pay bills. We all pay bills. We said that. That's the line right there.
01:23:43
Sam
That's the line.
01:23:44
Case
We paid bills. That the Sulkins were not good about paying bills again when they got to the actual screening. Alexander Salkin for. For not paying whatever fucking bills. I forget what specific ones had been arrested by Interpol. Like, such weird people involved in this movie. There are so many warrants out for people's arrests over the course of this production. There are so many people in the hospital, and somehow no one's technically at fault. No one's technically in the wrong in this movie. They somehow made this movie. They invented new types of camera techniques. John Williams did his. Like. This is like the third in his, like, sequence. But, like, so he did Jaws, he did Star Wars. Then he does this. And like, you know, this is the first movie that's like a straight up adaptation of a property, like, of a franchise.
01:24:26
Case
Because, like, Jaws was a book, but it was a book that no one gave a about. It was a shark novel. You know, like, Star wars is not based on anything directly. This is like, all right, let's take this existing thing and like, add a musical level to it that is so inextricably linked to the property that you can't notice. Discuss it either in how it's similar or how they differentiate on purpose. You know, like the Hans Zimmer score for man of Steel, I think is very good. But it is part of the discussion is how it is different from the one from this I've been rewatching. Or not. I shouldn't say rewatching. I've been watching for the first time because I didn't know this show existed. The Ruby Spears 80s Superman TV show.
01:25:06
Case
And they have like a synth version of this score because it's like that important. Important also that show apparently is an adaptation of the movies, basically, but with like a couple random elements from the comics turn in. Like, it's basically a continuation. It's actually shockingly good, but. Oh, J, Mike, by the way, re watching this, I realized that the question that we had when we watched Superman 3, is Martha Kent still alive? She is. At least in this movie.
01:25:33
Jmike
Yeah. Yeah.
01:25:35
Case
Because the whole thing about him setting up payment to go to her. So like, man, when does Martha Kent die? Because apparently she's dead by three, but we never find out.
01:25:42
Sam
Yeah, they kind of gloss over that, right? Like, they just.
01:25:45
Case
Yeah.
01:25:45
Sam
Cause she is. He sets up, you know, payment for his mom. That's something that's mentioned because, like, the.
01:25:50
Jmike
Last time you see her is like, when he goes off to the Fortress of Solitude, isn't it?
01:25:54
Case
Right. Yeah.
01:25:55
Sam
For all we know, someone wasn't allowed back in Canada and they could not shoot any more time. Martha.
01:26:02
Jmike
Oh.
01:26:02
Case
Oh. Martha Kent was actually a murderer. Actually, she was the mother of, like, the. I think the Ilya Salkin's girlfriend at the time, which is how she got.
01:26:13
Sam
Connected to this whole thing.
01:26:14
Case
Again, so much shady shit going on with this movie.
01:26:17
Sam
For all we know, they broke up and that's part of the reason why Martha just was not back in it.
01:26:23
Case
That fucking might be. Holy shit.
01:26:26
Sam
Like, honestly, like, if you told me that, like, she went to jail, I would totally believe you just based on every other fact.
01:26:36
Case
Oh, my God. It was so they got divorced in 1979.
01:26:40
Sam
That's why. Oh, wow.
01:26:42
Case
Oh, my God. That's why she got in three.
01:26:45
Jmike
So they wrote her out because she got divorced.
01:26:47
Case
Wow.
01:26:48
Jmike
Okay.
01:26:48
Case
Well, because her daughter got divorced from. From Ilya.
01:26:51
Sam
My mother's not gonna be in your movies anymore. That's fine.
01:26:54
Jmike
That's fine.
01:26:56
Case
Holy. Yeah. Again, crazy production like. Like, but super influential too. You know, like the fact that we didn't. That the sequel is as weird as it is, it's still a good movie. Like both versions, I think are good movies. Three has interesting points and four is infamous.
01:27:16
Jmike
We're not gonna talk about that case, but.
01:27:19
Sam
No, you are gonna talk about that. Yeah, I heard you are. I'm really looking forward to.
01:27:25
Case
But this 1978 movie being the first big adaptation of an existing franchise into a blockbuster, which was a new concept in the mid-70s at this point changed the way we thought about what movies we could make and what properties we could turn into. Big money makers. You know, star. Like Jaws and Star wars created. Created blockbusters. This is the one where it's like actually taking an existing franchise and making it into a blockbuster. And then from here again, like we get. The first three Superman movies happen late 70s, early 80s by the. The third one's happening in like 87, 88. Batman comes out in 89, as does Ninja Turtles, which are all of a sudden. Well, and Ninja Turtles is important. It's. It is one of the most successful indie movies ever. And it.
01:28:09
Case
It's only the reason I say one of is because it's debatable about where you draw the line. As Angela Bones Bullock kept on pointing out that Empire Strikes Back is technically an indie movie. But. But usually when people say the most successful indie movie ever, they talk. They're talking about Ninja Turtles. It's also based on a comic book. That was a huge thing that. And. And the Tim Burton Batman movie all of a sudden set the stage for Batman or for superhero movies. And you know, again, it's only like a year or two between Batman and Robin and then Blade setting up the three part Blade X Men, Spider man trifecta that get us into like the comic book craze that leads us to Iron Man. You know, again It's. Spider Man 3 comes out only a year before Iron Man 1.
01:28:50
Case
Iron Man 1 is the MCU.
01:28:52
Jmike
Yeah.
01:28:52
Sam
Yeah.
01:28:52
Case
And so there's a straight line like there's never more than a three year gap between superhero movies that are monumental in the lead up to the current era of all the money in the world is going to Superman movies like. Or to superhero movies like Spider Man. No way Home made so much money. And it shouldn't have because no one should have gone to see it because it's. It's a fucking pandemic. Don't go to the like, what the fuck are you doing, people? And yet somehow so much money. Well, it also depends on where you are.
01:29:18
Sam
And, like, what's very low? I'm sorry. It was my birthday weekend. I just wanted to feel normal for one day. I work. Hey. N95. I doubled up. I masked the whole time. It was my birthday. I wanted to see the Spider Mansion.
01:29:36
Case
J Mike and I are living in the D.C. area where we just had a 500% spike over previous heights.
01:29:42
Sam
I mean, I live in New York City. It's been pretty freaking bad.
01:29:45
Case
Oh, it's been pretty bad. Yeah.
01:29:47
Sam
It's been pretty. Well, let's just be honest. It's bad wherever you are in America. Honestly, we're really sorry if there's anyone who's listening to us globally, I hope it's better where you are. But we're drowning in, you know, personal responsibility. And so we are very focused on how we are drowning on personal responsibility. But it's been really bad up here. And it's definitely like. I mean, that's like, directly after that week, like, at least four of my friends were like, I'm COVID positive. They weren't people that were with me, but, like, people who were vaxxed were, like, coming back. Like, some friends online were saying it. And so it was just like a snowball. I personally, for the New York area, blame SantaCon. Of course I will blame SantaCon for anything and everything. Always. I hate it. I will always hate it.
01:30:40
Jmike
Terrible.
01:30:41
Sam
Taking that stand right here will die on that hill, but people will join me. It will be an army.
01:30:46
Case
Because I almost cited SantaCon when you brought up Hoboken. Because they have their own SantaCon and fuck that.
01:30:51
Sam
Yeah, no, well. But there's not a reason for Hoboken to be blown up. I'm sure regular people in Hoboken hate SantaCon.
01:30:59
Case
And there's a SantaCon in DC too.
01:31:01
Jmike
What is SantaCon?
01:31:02
Case
SantaCon is a bar hop where you dress up as Santa or one of his elves and just go and be drunk and rowdy and harass every bartender in the.
01:31:09
Sam
And the worst part is it's not like. It's not like a fully structured organization. Right. They say that they are giving to charity, but they don't actually disclose what their proceeds go to or what they're actually doing with their money. And also, it's just based on this website. So, like, the city of New York can't stop it from happening because it's not even, like, city sanctioned. It's just like some dudes that got together and got some bars to agree to let it happen. And it's basically a pub Crawl, where, like, you give them, like, 12 bucks and you can go to all the participating bars and get super drunk and stupid. And usually the people that are going, and I'm sorry, if you're listening, are the bridge and tunnel people. Long Island, New Jersey. They're coming into the city. They're infecting a Scatn Island.
01:31:54
Case
Hoboken.
01:31:55
Sam
Hoboken. And you're coming here and you're making us sick, and we'd like you to stay home. I hate SantaCon. And, yeah, if you want to visit New York, come here to work and please go home.
01:32:05
Jmike
I don't want to say this out loud, but I thought it was a Santa Claus Comic Con. I was like, you would think that would have been. I thought it was like, Santa Con. What is.
01:32:13
Sam
I think the worst part is that, like, I think, like, on, like, on the surface level, right, it's kind of like a cool idea. Like, a bunch of people dress up like Santa Claus and elves and they go out and they have a couple of drinks, right? But, like, on reality level, it's people dressed as Santa Claus throwing up on the middle of the street and elves while kids are walking. And it's a. It's a daytime thing, so it starts at 10am and it goes all day. Like a couple years ago before, in the before times, before the COVID 19. My birthday's in December, clearly, and I was heading out to go to a birthday dinner that I had gone in, and I didn't realize that it was SantaCon.
01:32:55
Sam
And I had gone off at 34th street, and I ran into a bunch of elves that were clearly running for their train back to Long island because that's where the elves come from. And one of them almost threw up on my shoes. I had to jump back. A guy behind me jumped back. He cursed her out. It was a New York moment. Santa Khan is awful.
01:33:18
Jmike
I can just see, like, a group of elves. Like.
01:33:22
Sam
Most of the time it's sexy elves, too. So, like, they're freezing their butts off and like, oh, my God, I'm so cold. You know? Like, it's horrible. It's awful. It's traumatizing.
01:33:34
Case
Yeah. One of the most depressing moments of my life is I was in D.C. making a delivery, and I saw a bunch of people dressed as Santa in Santa costumes. And I realized that SantaCon had spread to D.C. right after I had left New York. I, earlier that day, had the thought being like, well, thank God SantaCon is a new York thing and I don't have to Deal with it this year.
01:33:54
Sam
Yeah. I do want to say that I do have friends in Long Island. I'm very sorry for me portraying them that way, but you know who these people are. If you live out there, you've got some people you know from there just like this.
01:34:10
Jmike
I learned something new today. Yep, SantaCon is evil.
01:34:14
Case
Yeah.
01:34:15
Sam
Yeah.
01:34:15
Case
They're all on the naughty list. Every single one of them is on the naughty list.
01:34:18
Sam
They should all deserve coal and no alcohol. Like, honestly, like, if I was running Santa Claus, they'd come in and be like, I want my drink. And I'd be like, here you go. They'd be like, this isn't a drink. I'm like, yes, but I would like you to choke on this coal. Please go home. Children are in the street, you heathens.
01:34:35
Jmike
Now I'm imagining, like, that whole scene from Jingle all the Way where, like, the Santa Clauses and elves are in that giant warehouse and Arnold Schwarzenegger's trying to find a Turboman doll.
01:34:43
Sam
It's kind of like that, except imagine them all drunk and imagine it a bar and also spilling out into the streets of New York, which is already crowded by itself.
01:34:53
Case
The concept is not that bad. It's just how messy and terrible it gets, like, every single year anyway. And this year, it was a super spreader event.
01:35:01
Sam
Yeah.
01:35:02
Case
Anyway, so we're not gonna talk about people dressed in red. We're gonna talk about people dressed in blue right now who happen to have red trim and a cape.
01:35:09
Sam
You know, I wanna say that I definitely miss the underwear. Like, I was watching this, and I was just like, yeah, I miss this classic look. Yeah. I know it's weird, but I do. I miss it. I was just like, yeah, I like this classic look.
01:35:25
Case
Yeah. I think that the. The hate on the trunks became. Because the costume became less of a, like, circus strongman look and more of a. Like, we're painting on a nude body. Like, art for superhero characters from the 60s to the 80s really, like, shifted towards more just, like, very, like, so form fitting that it was impossible.
01:35:45
Sam
Right.
01:35:45
Case
Kind of as an excuse to sort of, like, have some sexy ladies who happen to, like, look naked. But, hey, they're wearing, like, red and white instead of, like, flesh tones, man. Some. Some of the art on that, like, in some comics, I was like, how does that even work? Is there, like, a sock that they put their boob in? Power girl. Power Girl's not even the worst example of.
01:36:03
Sam
That's what I was going to say. Like, she's. It's not always good but she's not even the worst example.
01:36:08
Case
Yeah, power. Power Girl's not even the worst example of the boob window. The, the 90s Sue Storm costume window on her costume was. That's terrible shit. Terrible shit. But, but I would say that probably a lot of people started to see it as underwear as opposed to trunks because like circus strongmen, gymnasts like wear those kind of trunks because like spandex can split, especially like where you're gonna have like your legs part. So that makes a lot of sense. And if you look at it more as like a costume that you're wearing, as opposed to I'm naked and I happen to be wearing red underwear, like, then it works better. But if it's blue skinned Superman, who you're, you know, like the spandex that's basically just like a blue naked suit. Yeah, it's kind of rough.
01:36:50
Case
And it does help to have something to kind of divide it. And especially for that older style costume where it is like strongman esque as opposed to like Kryptonian armor or whatever that it is sometimes. Like the, like the man of Steel look I think needed a little more color to break it up. But like they were doing something to break it up at least.
01:37:07
Sam
Every movie needed more color, though. Sorry, that also true, I have a hard time with the color palette or lack thereof in that movie.
01:37:16
Case
But like the point is like having something to kind of break it up I think helps a lot.
01:37:20
Sam
And it would have been same thing, judgy. It's totally judging of man of Steel. Like, I know, like, I just. Anyway, what I will say is, yes, Case, you're right about Spandex and any cosplayer can tell you I have stitched up so many crotches and behinds for different people in cosplay at con because spandex does split and it will split. But actually I'm just remembering I had a flashback of something that I saw in one of the documentaries. So Margot Kidder was talking about the red underwear and specifically like the piece that had to go inside and the fact that the production and crew kept arguing at like what size Superman's equipment should be like, and it's a little cut piece that they put in there. Right. To make sure that like, oh yeah.
01:38:12
Case
He'S man of Steel.
01:38:13
Jmike
Yeah.
01:38:13
Sam
And so also to make sure he doesn't get hurt.
01:38:16
Case
The Manhood of Steel.
01:38:17
Sam
The Manhood of Steel. And so they, and she would say that some days they would put a large, like a much larger piece in There. And she couldn't help herself. And she would just start tapping it and Christopher Reeves would get mad at her. She's just talking about this in a documentary. And I'm like, no, Margot is not okay. But also, it's kind of funny.
01:38:40
Jmike
Oh, man.
01:38:41
Sam
It was like a huge debate as to, like, how big they were gonna make him seem. And she said sometimes he would come out and it was just like, ridiculously large because they had decided for that scene that, like, oh, no, I think he should be bigger. And she would just be so weirded out by it that she just had touch it.
01:39:00
Case
I mean, that is kind of the way that power girl ended up with the giant boobs, where it was just the artist kept on trying to see, like, when the editor would say, hey, that's too big. You have to stop. And, like, the editor never did. So they just kept going. But, yeah, like, no, that's not okay. But it's kind of funny is sort of the ultimate description of the behind the scenes of this movie.
01:39:20
Sam
Yes, that should be the tagline for all of the many videos I watched.
01:39:26
Case
Like, that's, I think, about as good a synopsis as we're going to get. You know, we said, like. Like we said the movie has a lasting impact. The movie had a great score. The movie had a pseudo sequel, or had a. I mean, had a sequel, but it had like, it was almost, you know, was partially shot while they were making this movie. And the only reason that, like, the actors got paid for it is because that the producers were so shy that they had already pulled this before and the Screen Actors Guild had to come after them. And there's a rule named after the producers. Like the fact that the. The. The infamous Jor El should be a bagel.
01:39:58
Case
Conversation we didn't even bring up because, like, Marlon Brando just was, like, such a weird fucking guy who would be like, no, no, I don't want to do any work. Can I just voice over it? Can you just give me a script to read? And it'll just have a bagel represented on screen.
01:40:13
Jmike
A little bagel from Dangling from a Rope.
01:40:16
Sam
Also, this. This movie won awards.
01:40:18
Jmike
Yeah.
01:40:18
Sam
Like, it won Orton Academy Award for Best Visual Effects. It was nominated for Best Film Editing, an original score, of course, and Best sound. It won the British Academy of Film Awards. It won, like, Most Promising Newcomer in Leading Films, and it won the Outstanding British Contributions to Cinema award. Because it was filmed partially. One of its many locations was in London or right outside of London. And then it got A Golden Globe for its score, which makes sense. And it won for Saturn Awards too. So it's. This is. Despite all of the crazy moving parts and the many colorful characters behind this film was, you know, well regarded. You know, it was nominated by its peers for awards. And, and honestly, it deserved a win for visual effects. And I think Christopher Reeves deserved something for his performance.
01:41:17
Sam
And so, yeah, I mean, it worked somehow.
01:41:22
Case
Like, this is not Pulp Fiction. This is not something that people put out there just for the kids or for like a specific subset. Like, this actually was a, a blockbuster. This was a movie that was intended for all audiences because at that point, Superman's legend had grown that big. And like, it's important to understand how this is so important to the genesis of what we, what modern movies are. And it's easy to reflect, look back at it and be like, oh, it's like kind of small. It's a 55 million dollar movie. That. That's chump change today. Like, oh, there's not a lot of big names in it, aside from, you know, Marlon Brando, who had just done the Godfather. Like, so it's not like he's nothing.
01:41:59
Case
And Gene Hackman's also a huge star at this point, but no one else is really that big. John Williams obviously is huge, but, like, it's his third big movie that we're going to talk about. I'm sure he's done a bunch of stuff that I'm overlooking, but, like, third huge movie.
01:42:13
Sam
Yeah.
01:42:13
Case
You know, again, they invented all the special effects for it. Like, a lot of work and money went into this movie in a way that, like, they just wouldn't have done 10 years before.
01:42:21
Sam
And it was financially successful.
01:42:24
Jmike
Yeah, very.
01:42:25
Sam
Yeah, I was like, we're leaving that out too. Like, this made money. This made. It made its money back.
01:42:31
Case
And then eventually its box office was 300.5 million.
01:42:35
Jmike
Well, like, you got to think about all the stuff that came after that too.
01:42:39
Case
Yeah, well, this is the box office, not like, remember streaming royalties and movies.
01:42:45
Sam
Are less expensive to go to at that point as well. So, like, the price of a movie ticket is much less than what we're talking about now. Much, much less. My mom was telling me, she was like, yeah, my mom used to give me $2 and I would go to the movie and I'd get a soda and a hot dog and I would sit down and I'd watch, you know, the serial, the cartoon, and then the actual movie. So it was like an all day event. And I was like, when was this? She was like, the 60s.
01:43:14
Jmike
I was like, it was like $50. All that right there is like $50.
01:43:17
Case
Yeah.
01:43:19
Jmike
Like a ticket's like 14, $15. And like the food and drink is like 40.
01:43:24
Sam
Like, that was literally $2. My mom got popcorn, a drink, and a hot dog and paid for her movie ticket altogether. Now I spend $20 just to sit in theater with two masks on and pray I don't get sick.
01:43:41
Case
But you get to pick the seat before you go.
01:43:43
Sam
That's true. And charge the convenience fee.
01:43:48
Case
From Fandango. Anyway. Yeah, the movies have changed a lot since then. This movie is one of the early things to start that progression into where we're at now. And I think we. I think we've said to death, like, what. What we need to say about this movie, like, it's not okay, but it's really funny. Is so much that happened behind the scenes in this movie. There's so much weird money laundering. Like, again, it was probably supposed to be a producer's style. Like you can make more money on a flop kind of scenario that just happened to be a hit. And it was a big enough hit, but not quite big enough that Alexander Salkind was not in jail.
01:44:21
Sam
Yeah.
01:44:21
Case
And he then would go on to produce the next three or the next two movies. And then also Supergirl, so. Weird era of shit.
01:44:30
Sam
Jma, why does your face get like that when we mentioned Supergirl?
01:44:34
Jmike
No reason.
01:44:35
Sam
No reason.
01:44:36
Jmike
No reason at all. Oh, man, I'm just gonna remember that was that weird lightning monster that happened.
01:44:42
Case
And then I think Supergirl. I just can't stop thinking about the product placement for kfc. That's all over the place. Like, we're going to do a nice date with Jimmy Olsen at kfc.
01:44:51
Sam
Listen, Popeyes.
01:44:53
Case
Pardon me, Popeyes, Sorry.
01:44:54
Sam
Sometimes you just need some product placement to help you pay for the movie you're laundering money from.
01:45:00
Jmike
I mean, it's not as bad as Nokia man of Steel, but, you know, it's close enough.
01:45:06
Sam
Well, I mean, honestly, I want to say that Nokia did make the most indestructible phone. And being with the man of Steel, that's just synergy. I don't know why you're being cynical. That's synergy.
01:45:21
Case
Well, anyway, so for people who are not familiar with Men of Steel because they just listened to this one show, maybe because they like Sam and not me. J. Mike, do you want to talk about Men of Steel for a second?
01:45:31
Jmike
We are a Superman fan. I want to say fan cast. We are Superman fans who do podcasting about random adventures and things we learned from the Superman mythos from when were kids till now. Case is like a walking encyclopedia of all the Superman knowledge, and I am there for comedic support. But yeah, we, we. This is. Oh, man, we. How long have we been doing podcasts now? Three years.
01:45:57
Case
We are in our fourth year now.
01:45:59
Jmike
Four years of doing this.
01:46:00
Sam
See, Case just holds all the facts. That's the same on this show, too.
01:46:04
Jmike
I got him. No, I actually got him twice. I was like, I'm gonna take that to, like, I got him once.
01:46:10
Case
I just, like, I enjoy trivia that I find funny.
01:46:13
Jmike
I got him twice.
01:46:14
Sam
I feel like your job is probably similar to my job on this, and it's just basically to keep Keis on track and just make sure that he gets to the end of the thoughts. All the thoughts. So many thoughts coming at him, so many notes.
01:46:32
Jmike
It's been four years. Holy crap. Yeah, we've got a lot more coming out of the pipeline soon, so congratulations. If you like this show, you should definitely tune in to us, hear us ramble about Superman for about an hour every time.
01:46:45
Sam
Yeah, yeah.
01:46:46
Case
When this episode drops, we will have just done a bunch. We'll have done two. Well, I've done a bunch of stuff on Legion of Superheroes and we'll have just dropped our two parter on Miracle man about the Alan Moore and the Neil Gaiman run, which was a lot of fun to revisit and talk about and honestly addresses a lot of the things where like, oh, wouldn't she be cold when they're flying? It's like entirely a deconstruction of, like, how superpowers would interact with people.
01:47:08
Sam
I mean, like, honestly, she would be. She's not super.
01:47:11
Jmike
She's in like a. Was it a bath or bedrobe? Bathrobe.
01:47:15
Sam
It's not even. It's like a flowy dress. Like, it's not even like a real sweater. It's like a. It's. No, she's going out. So it's like 1970s thing, but it's like a. She's in a. Like a slip dress. But on top of the slip dress is a nice flowing, like, blue cafkan kind of coverall that's going on. That was like, very popular in the 70s. No, it's. No, she was going out for a date. Oh, she was in pajamas. Is it true?
01:47:48
Case
J. Mike, that's not okay, but it's pretty funny also.
01:47:52
Sam
Can I just say out of all the things, like, I mean, there's a flying man in it. There's a guy who lives in the subway. But I feel like the most unrealistic thing in that movie is that Lois Lane can afford that apartment on a reporter's salary. She's got a full balcony that's got, like, a garden. Like, who's tending that garden? You're a workaholic. How do you have a garden? Like, I don't understand how you're terrorist. Do you have someone come in. Can you afford to pay for this apartment? And also have someone come in to clean your house and take care of this garden? Because I don't know if you do, Lois. You're always at the office. What is happening? Plants just don't water themselves. I'm sorry. This is a lot. Sorry, guys.
01:48:32
Case
Yeah, I mean, she's a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. That's hard to say. And this is also before the Reagan era, so, like, people got paid fair.
01:48:41
Sam
Salaries at this point. Yeah, that's true. And the rent was a little bit better, so maybe it's more believable. Okay, all right. You know what?
01:48:47
Case
Yeah. Metropolis is very much New York in this. Like, yeah, there's like. Like, but. But remember, this is the era of, like, Gerald Ford saying, no, we're not going to give any money to New York. Drop dead. Like, so it's fairly affordable at this point.
01:49:01
Sam
Okay, all right, I take it back. I take it back. I don't know how she's watering all those plants, though, because she is a workaholic.
01:49:07
Case
No, that's true. No, she definitely has to pay for people to do that. She's got people.
01:49:12
Sam
I mean, she could have gotten the apartment rent control. Like, she could have inherited it from someone because that's very common. And that was more common in New York back then in the 70s.
01:49:21
Case
I don't think that apartment was rent controlled, though.
01:49:23
Sam
It could have been like. No. I actually know people who live in, like, still live on, like, 28th street in apartments that they cannot be kicked out of because of strange laws when they were rezoning it. So, like, half of the building is offices, but then the other half, these people are just living there till they die because they can never get kicked out. And it's so heavily controlled and the.
01:49:44
Case
Building keeps in the middle. That's pretty dope. It just looks like a little too modern. Like, it's like a very modern penthouse apartment.
01:49:49
Sam
You can renovate spaces.
01:49:51
Case
That's fair.
01:49:51
Jmike
That's fair.
01:49:53
Sam
I mean, she's A Pulitzer winning journal.
01:49:57
Case
Pulitzer Prize winning journal.
01:49:58
Sam
She can't use her prize money to renovate her apartment that she got from her great aunt who lived there forever.
01:50:04
Case
I was going to say, like, considering her dad is a U.S. army general, like, maybe he has that set up when he was like an attache for like the UN or something.
01:50:12
Sam
She's always had, like, now she can afford it in modern times. Never mind, like, we know who's paying the rent. We got it.
01:50:20
Case
Yeah. Maybe she's always just been living on her daddy's dime.
01:50:22
Sam
Yeah. That's why she can recklessly just kind of do whatever she wants.
01:50:27
Case
So for more of those kinds of discussions, head on over to Men of Steel, which is another podcast on the Search POV Podcast network. We got tons of great shows, but yeah, we'll talk about man of Steel right now because it's like it's a crossover, baby.
01:50:39
Jmike
Crossover event.
01:50:42
Sam
Yeah.
01:50:43
Case
And you can find all kinds of conversations. We've had some great ones. We had Yuri Lowenthal from the Legion of Superheroes cartoon talking about his time playing Superman recently. We had Chris Batista, who was a Legion of Superheroes artist, talking about a series he didn't draw, but he would later be the artist on that book on like, later issues of that book, and talked about a really big arc for it. So, you know, we're getting some cool guests over there. It's a lot of fun. Sam, you've been on a couple of times at this point.
01:51:05
Sam
Yeah, we talked about the George Perez run of Wonder Woman. Yeah, Wonder Woman.
01:51:11
Case
Remember that major Wonder Woman marathon that we did? Yeah.
01:51:15
Jmike
It's like we end a year in a marathon nowadays.
01:51:17
Case
That's like a year's worth of episodes right there. All because they kept pushing back the release date, for one. But check those episodes out. They're a lot of fun. Then head on over to certainpov.com where you can find all kinds of other great shows. You can find a link to our Discord server. We are not doing the call on Discord right now because we've been having some connection issues with that. But there's tons of memes being shared. There's tons of announcements about future episodes. There's all kinds of good stuff. And you can maybe like find all of us around there. So, J Mike, they can find you there. But if they don't find you on the Discord, where can they find you on TwitterMike101?
01:51:51
Jmike
I am very bad at the Twitters, so I'm trying to get better, though. That's my new aim for 2022 is get better on Twitter. And so far, but I'm working on it.
01:52:03
Case
And Sam, outside of the Discord, where can people find you?
01:52:05
Sam
Nowhere. I am just an alien that lives in Kace's head. I've come from another planet. I live in a crystal. I just talk to him. I give him advice. It's what I do. I just come out for this. I know I keep saying I'm from New York, but that's from when Keis used to live in New York. Keis also loves Oscar the Grouch and all Sesame street things. So yeah, no, they can find me on Discord and here on another pass and go listen to the episode where I was on man of Steel and we talked about Wonder Woman and George Perez's rug because it was wonderful and you know, he's wonderful. So yeah, that was a fun time. Something about Care Bear staredown, I think I remember saying. And that's yeah, Keis, where can they find you?
01:52:58
Sam
Oh, also, if you have any complaints about anything that I said, as always, you can find Kayse, can find me.
01:53:03
Case
On Twitter Aace Aiken, you can find me on Instagram etzelcoatl5 because I am a nerd for both mythology and the legion of superheroes. You can find the podcast n other passengers. We will have more coming soon because we have so many great new episodes coming out a little behind the scenes. We typically record well ahead on regular episodes, and fifth episodes are usually because there's not as many of them, we are usually a little bit closer to the actual release date. So we've got a ton of great episodes banked. You might hear me talk about Beowulf quite a bit coming up. So, because I'm sorry about Beowulf.
01:53:37
Sam
He's so obsessed with Beowulf. Everything is Beowulf.
01:53:40
Case
I keep finding ways to tangent back to Beowulf.
01:53:43
Sam
If I say Beowulf one more time, go ahead and take a drink.
01:53:47
Case
Be wolf, drink your mead. It's made from honey.
01:53:52
Sam
And that's okay no matter what.
01:53:54
Case
Apparently, regardless of your personal affiliations, it's not real alcohol.
01:54:01
Sam
That's a 13th warrior reference, Guy. You'll enjoy it. It's coming.
01:54:07
Case
But thank you, J. Mike, for coming on. Sam, thank you as always for being here. It's so fun having my two usual sparring partners here for this conversation.
01:54:17
Sam
I feel like this conversation went more off the rail than our normal conversations, and I want to apologize to anyone listening. And Matt who may have to edit this. And good luck.
01:54:29
Case
Yeah, just tell yourself it's not okay, but it's pretty funny.
01:54:32
Sam
Yeah.
01:54:33
Jmike
The model for this episode, Sam.
01:54:36
Case
I've teased a bunch of future stuff, but what do we have? Next time.
01:54:39
Sam
Oh, my God, guys, next time. You're not gonna believe this. We are doing Highlander 2 the Quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.
01:54:54
Case
Thanks for listening to Certain Point of View's another past podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on itunes. Just go to certainpov.com.
01:55:08
Sam
Another pass is a certain POV production. Our hosts are Sam, Alice, and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri. And our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.
01:55:24
Case
Looking through my notes, there's so many things. There's so many things to talk about.
01:55:29
Jmike
It's amazing.
01:55:30
Case
Yeah.
01:55:31
Sam
Later on, should we do an actual real opening?
01:55:34
Case
Like, yeah, we should do an actual real opening. We should do an actual real clap first.
01:55:39
Sam
Yeah. Who cares about Matt? I do, because he's wonderful. Sorry, Matt. I can't even joke about it. I'm like, I appreciate you too much. I'm sorry.
01:55:49
Jmike
Hey. Oh, hey, Jeff.
01:55:50
Case
What's going on, guys? Oh, you know, talking about Superman. Oh, cool. I could talk about Superman. I could talk some more about Superman.
01:55:58
Jmike
We know.
01:55:59
Case
I'll bet a few people would want to get in on this.
01:56:01
Jmike
I'm down.
01:56:02
Case
You know it. That sounds like fun. I'll do it. Cool. Let's do it. We can call the show Men of.
01:56:06
Jmike
Steel, and you can find it@ certainpov.com.
01:56:10
Case
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:56:13
Sam
Yay.
01:56:14
Case
Hey, all you amazing sentient beings, this is Case Aiken from Certain pov. And outside of podcasting, I work with a group that does Star Trek fan films called starship Farragut. For 15 years, we've been doing material inspired by the original Star Trek series, but now we're moving on to the movie era with our latest production, Farragut Forward. And that means new sets, new props, and we're gonna have to make those monster maroon uniforms. So we have a crowdfunder running right now. Backers can get access to our soundtracks, have their names show up on screen as part of a duty roster, or even get a walk on roll.
01:56:47
Case
Our hope is that this is just the beginning and that the assets we create with the money we raise will go towards future productions, including possibly a sequel that may just be written by a certain scruffy nerf hurting man of steel who'll take another pass at it. Wink wink. To back the production, go to Indiegogo and look up Farragut Forward or find us on Twitter aragat1921 and hey, while you're at it, check. Check out the three minute prologue we put together to show what we can do. But in the meantime, live long and prosper. CPOV certainpov.com.