Another Pass at Beyond the Valley of the Dolls
We're throwing a party at Z-Man's, so why don't you join Case, Sam, and actor/comedian/writer Sean Lynch. We're going to have a lot of fun talking about this Roger Ebert penned psychedelic cautionary tale/softcore porn/musical, "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls". Come when you can! When does any party start? "When ya' get there!"
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Another Pass Full Episode Originally aired: June 22, 2022
Music by Vin Macri and Matt Brogan
Podcast Edited by Matt Storm
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⏱️ YouTube Chapters
00:00 Content Warning
00:20 Cold Open
00:46 Welcome to Another Pass
01:17 Introducing Beyond the Valley of the Dolls
01:43 Guest Introduction: Sean Lynch
02:26 Crow’s Nest Memories
04:24 Why Beyond the Valley of the Dolls?
06:01 The Movie’s Basic Plot
07:43 The “Not a Sequel” Disclaimer
08:20 Valley of the Dolls Connections
09:18 Real-Life Inspirations
11:47 Z-Man and the Cast of Characters
13:00 Roger Ebert’s Screenplay
13:49 The Opening Credits and Smash Cuts
14:30 The Kelly Affair
16:14 The Music
17:43 Movie Influences and Homages
19:20 The Budget and Production
20:05 Day-for-Night and Visual Choices
21:46 The Movie’s Escalating Madness
22:33 Superhero Costumes and Pop Culture References
25:58 Z-Man Before the Turn
28:40 Sex, Softcore, and the Movie’s Tone
31:01 Magical Mystery Tour Comparison
32:13 Roger Ebert’s Idea of Cool
36:01 Production Notes and Sequel Connections
37:53 Aunt Susan and Baxter
39:32 Case’s Dad Knows This Movie
40:19 The Lost X-Rated Cut
41:07 Harris Is the Worst
43:01 The Movie’s Moralizing
47:29 Casey, Harris, and the Ending’s Priorities
49:11 Other Movies in the Shadow of Beyond the Valley of the Dolls
50:34 Casey and Roxanne
53:55 Tangent Trees and the Script’s Chaos
54:39 Pet, Emerson, and the Boxer
56:16 Beyond the Valley of the Dolls as a Telenovela
57:17 Race, Slang, and Awkward Dialogue
59:09 Z-Man’s Finale
01:05:11 The Trans/Gay Panic Problem
01:08:02 Roxanne and Casey’s Relationship
01:09:18 Why Is Harris There?
01:12:30 Otto and the Nazi Costume
01:15:14 Kelly as Main Character
01:19:34 Pam Grier’s First Feature
01:20:07 Gene Siskel’s Review
01:21:14 Critical Reception and Cult Status
01:22:22 Fun and Games Promo
01:22:56 Another Pass Begins
01:23:00 Case’s Stage Musical Pitch
01:26:50 Sam’s Another Pass
01:31:13 Reworking Z-Man
01:35:04 Giving Casey a Better Ending
01:39:59 Sean’s Sock Puppet Musical Pitch
01:41:32 Z-Man in Prison
01:44:09 Recasting and Reworking Porter Hall
01:47:24 Case’s Another Pass
01:49:28 Fixing the Finale
01:53:15 Making Harris the Villain
01:59:45 Final Thoughts on the Movie
02:04:59 Sean’s Love for the Movie
02:06:43 Sean’s Plugs
02:11:05 Certain POV Plugs
02:11:42 Next Time: Highlander II
02:11:58 Credits
02:12:27 Post-Credits: Talking About This Movie Anywhere
Transcription
00:00
Case
Hey, guys, this is Case coming in before the episode. Just to note that there is a bit of content that you can't help talking about this movie without giving some kind of a disclaimer. There is some transphobia here, there is some gay panic, there is some racism, and there is some talk of sexual assault. So if that is a concern, I would probably recommend skipping this episode.
00:20
Sean
All sarcasm aside, I adore this movie. I love its madness. I love how it's like. It's like reading. It's like this weird cross between reading Hunter s. Thompson's, like, early 70s work with, like, with, of course, you know, Russ Meyer's amazing Cinema de Memorais.
00:46
Case
Welcome to certain another pass podcast with Case and Sam where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another pass podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I am joined by my co host, Sam Alicea.
01:05
Sam
Hi.
01:07
Case
And today we are talking about a movie that definitely is fascinating but flawed.
01:13
Sam
My brain is melted from this. It's melted. It is goo. Go on.
01:17
Case
Well, it could have been worse. It could have been worse because we both actually had the wrong thing written down initially, and I caught it right before I rented it, so. So today we are talking about beyond the Valley of the Dolls. And for that conversation, we are joined by my former coworker at Crow's Nest, a bartender extraordinaire, but more importantly, actually a comedian and a successful writer. And currently appearing in an Off Broadway show. We are joined by Sean Lynch.
01:43
Sean
Hello.
01:45
Sam
Welcome, Sean.
01:47
Sean
I want to change that to my resume now.
01:50
Case
Bartender, Saturday night bartender or karaoke night at Crows Nest.
01:55
Sean
You got lead with that kid.
01:58
Case
You know, Cross House has had as much of an impact as just about any job I've had. Because it was you. It was Batista. Like, lots of, like, good connections happened at that bar.
02:06
Sean
I was literally doing a show in San Francisco three months ago, and Eugene Kaufman showed up with his wife, kid, like, every. And that's all we did, was talking about Crow's Nest all night. It's amazing. It was the nexus of, like, so many people's lives.
02:26
Case
In the late 80s, man. Yeah. So for. For listeners who. Who forget the mythology of Case. So I used to live in New York, used to be a bartender while doing theater stuff, while bartending. One of the places I worked for a number of years was this Upper east side dive bar. Dive bar is a harsh term. It was. It was a very nice bar.
02:45
Sean
Is pretty Apt, buddy.
02:47
Case
Well, because the second Avenue subway construction was going on, so there was always scaffolding right in front of it, so you could never really see out from it, even though it was actually a very, like, clean establishment. And I know because I cleaned that shit. But, but Sean was a working comedian at the time and would do guest bartending regularly on Saturday nights and we got to know each other pretty well. I, I think we dropped a Greek mythology reference and that was the first time we, like, really connected. I forget it was something literate, but I don't recall what.
03:16
Sam
That's shocking. You building a relationship off of that. No. Listeners, are you as shocked as I am? Yes, they are shocking.
03:25
Sean
All we had three of the most Eurodite bartenders in Manhattan working together. It was like, you, me and Eugene were pretty interesting barmen, you know, like, you would think usually at a place like that, it'd be like three guys named like, you know, Patty, who, like, I never had more than a third grade education, and I'd come over on a potato, you know, and the three of us would be like, you know, the interesting thing about Lady Macbethwit, sorry, I have to get a pint for, you know, some vomit frat boy. And we just go right back to talking about like, Richard Burton or something. It was, it was fun.
03:59
Case
Yeah, no, it was wonderful. That was really where I like, identified myself as being the philosopher bartender. Like, people would come in and I would be like, well, you know, like Plato would explain it this way. But I want to give a shout out, actually to pass guest Will Carey, who had you on his show. And when I reached out to you to say, hey, it was a great episode, that's when we got talking and ended up inviting you on for this one because we hadn't talked in probably what, like, six years?
04:23
Sean
Had to be. Had to be.
04:24
Case
But so wonderful to have you on. When we asked, you immediately said beyond the Valley of the Dolls. And I was like, that sounds interesting. Sam, what do you think? It.
04:32
Sam
Sam said, yeah, sure. I've never seen that movie. Which was not an understatement. I don't know if this is a movie or a fever dream, but it is something. It is, it is an event. It is a moment. It is so many things. I'm going to have to speak to my therapist about it. Definitely.
04:57
Sean
It just permanently imprints on your cerebral cortex.
05:01
Sam
Listen, I don't even know what my pitch is going to because I actually, when I was done with this, when I was done watching the movie. I had a couple of other things that I had to take care of. And so it was a few hours in between, and I decided to call a friend, and I wanted to explain to them the plot of this film to see if I really understood what I had said. And they were like, what is what? Why? And I'm like, wait, no, it's not done yet. Hold on a second. They're like, no more. And I'm like, no, it's not. I have to finish it.
05:33
Sean
But I haven't gotten to Superwoman yet.
05:37
Case
Right?
05:37
Sam
Yes, exactly. And, like, I gave everybody nicknames so that they would know. Like, I caught. I was like, so manager boyfriend, who's not really her boyfriend, but he thinks he's a boyfriend. Anyway, manager boyfriend is so upset that he was, like, told that he's a terrible lay, and he gets mad and he goes in and he throws a whole punch. But he's terrible at fighting. Probably as bad as he is at screwing anyway. And my friend's like, oh, my God, please stop.
06:01
Case
Yeah, I mean, like, the thing is, the movie actually has a fairly straightforward, like, base plot. If you really break it down, it's the arc of every one of these, like, biopics about a band comes to la. Like, they start making it big, but then the drugs and the alcohol and everything starts and all the partying, and they mix it up with the wrong crowd and whatnot. But that wrong crowd is so weird, like, from start to finish.
06:22
Sean
You mean beautiful. Also beautiful. Like, there's.
06:26
Case
There's a lot that if I was watching this movie when I was 14, I would have, you know, had to take it back just to appreciate the beauty of, like. There's a lot of good stuff going on here.
06:35
Sean
Oh, yeah, dude. I saw it. And I saw it while I was in film school at nyu. And I remember watching it, and everybody else in class was just tearing it apart. And I was like, you Philistines. This is the greatest cinematic experience of all time. This is like Fellini's Eight and a Half. And everybody's like, he's definitely on drugs. This dude is definitely on all the drugs. He's finally snapped. I was like, oh. Because I. You know, all sarcasm aside, I adore this movie. I love its madness. I love how it's, like, reading. It's like this weird cross between reading Hunter s. Thompson's, like, early 70s work with, like. With, of course, you know, Russ Meyer's amazing Cinema de Memorais and, like, just. I mean, what a great, loud boisterous way to capture, like, the beauty and ugliness of 60s, early 70s.
07:40
Sean
I mean, man. Yeah, I.
07:43
Case
Okay, so let's start off with just literally the first thing that they put on screen here, just in terms of conversation, which I found so funny, both because I was reading up about it before we hit play, and then it actually came on and I was like, oh, my God, it's real. Which is a disclaimer that this is not a sequel to the Valley of the Dolls.
08:02
Sean
Please do not sue us.
08:05
Case
Well, and that didn't stop it because they actually did get sued because.
08:08
Sean
Amazing. I love the idea that if the intro was like, please do not sue us. No, sir, please sit down. Please, sir, stop calling that lawyer.
08:20
Case
Yeah, so the. The author of the book Valley of the Dolls, Jacqueline Susan, tried to get an injunction to prevent this movie from being released because she thought it was sullying her work. And it's bad enough that at least in terms of the Valley of the Dolls, the previous movie, that this movie was greenlit as a sequel to. Let's be clear about that part. The Valley of the Dolls was commercially successful because it kind of had this cult status. Like, there's some performances in there that are, shall we say, over the top. And people responded and took it like it was a. A they. Everything is played so straight that it was taken as. As humorous in a lot of ways. And then. And then you get Sharon Tate, who actually died between this or between Valley of the Dolls and this being released.
09:12
Case
That kind of inspired the third act of this movie.
09:14
Sean
Yeah.
09:15
Case
So you've got, like, all this sort of, like, lore.
09:18
Sean
Let's not forget Ronnie Spector inspiring Superwoman.
09:23
Case
Yes. That's also a part of it.
09:24
Sean
I mean, there's a theory. I believe it's Ronnie Spector that character was based on.
09:30
Case
I saw a note that about it, but I. I don't know what this. The. The sources on this one are like, certainly it fills an archetype the same way. Like, the boxer character is like a Muhammad Ali type character without necessarily being like, you know, one to one. Like, there's not, like, specifically events that I think they're referencing. It just wouldn't. Wouldn't this type of person do this type of thing?
09:52
Sean
Right. But. But I think Muhammad Ali actually wore a shirt a lot more often.
09:56
Sam
Yeah.
09:56
Case
Yeah.
09:57
Sam
This guy has a shirt, like, maybe once. One scene in the entire movie. No, not even.
10:02
Case
No shirt.
10:03
Sam
No.
10:03
Sean
He has, like a cotton allergy or something. It's just weird. Yeah.
10:07
Case
He shows up without a shirt at the party.
10:09
Sam
But no, when he shows up to her door later on to be all like, creepy and weird, he's wearing a yellow jacket at the very least with flowers.
10:17
Case
That's how you.
10:18
Sam
I remember myself going, oh, he's actually wearing something on top. Because I was so shocked that like, he ditched the towel that like. And like, he like showed up at like to basically be upset that he'd been thrown into prison. And then like, he basically like threw the law student across the room and was like, take me back, baby. And she was like, no. And that was like kind of the end of it, which was weird.
10:44
Sean
And they sentenced me to this shirt.
10:48
Sam
Yeah, they made me wear a shirt. It's part of my probation headcanon. That is.
10:53
Case
You're right. He is wearing a jacket when he shows up again.
10:55
Sam
See? Yeah, but, but you're right for the rest of it. He is not. And I remember thinking the whole time, like, damn. I guess it's. Well, I guess it's la. I guess it's warm, so I guess he doesn't need one.
11:07
Sean
And I just love the idea that in like some sort of like feminist movement, they're like, well, if we have to take our tops off all the time, why can't at least one of the men take their tops off all the time? He's like Russ Meyer's like, he's. She's right. You know, you there, the boxer. Lose the shirt, kid.
11:24
Case
More skin. More skin for everyone.
11:26
Sam
He just has a towel. That way, you know, he's a boxer.
11:29
Sean
Right? Or either that or Mean Joe Green. But yeah, it's. It makes sense.
11:35
Sam
It.
11:36
Sean
I love the idea. I love the idea that they're like, he doesn't look enough like a boxer. Put a towel around his neck. Nice.
11:45
Case
Have him make a million boxing references.
11:47
Sean
Oh, my God. Yes. I mean, it's. I love how ham fisted all the characters are. I mean, I could literally. We could do an entire episode on Z Man. He's. He's amazing.
11:58
Case
Yeah. Every character is fucking incredible in this whole piece. Like, they're all crazy. Not a lot of them had careers after this movie. What the ones that did were mostly because they were like, all the women are playboy, like playmates, like across the board.
12:13
Sean
Listen, I can tell you what Lance Rock was up to afterwards, at least for the first ten years after this, because I followed him.
12:21
Case
Cynthia Myers, speaking of which, who is the sort of like the third girl in the. In the band. Casey, the. The lesbian. Because they all have like their One thing. So she actually. So she's got like all this stuff going because she was the first Playboy playmate born in the 50s. Because they shot her immediately in time for her to be legal. And apparently photos of her were on the Apollo 12.
12:45
Sean
Weren't even blown out on the cake yet.
12:47
Case
So much so that they shot it before she was legal. They released it after the date.
12:52
Sean
Good God.
12:53
Sam
Wow.
12:53
Case
Yeah. But apparently her photos were sent on the Apollo 12 mission. I know.
13:00
Sean
It's for good measure.
13:01
Case
Yeah. Go with a wild movie like. So Russ Myers is mostly known for, like, nudie pictures and was given a bigger budget than anything he'd ever worked on. And so he hired a young film critic, Roger Ebert, to write this script. And I don't know if we've mentioned that part yet, because holy fucking shit. This is Roger Ebert's movie.
13:24
Sam
Yeah.
13:25
Sean
This was his foray. Yeah. Cinema.
13:29
Case
This is his first feature.
13:30
Sean
I think it's amazing. I think it's amazing that I like. I'm like, you know what? If I wrote that and that the movie turned out that way, I'd retire from writing too. Because that literally. Just take your bow, man. This was it. This was your stairway to heaven. Time to go home.
13:49
Case
Like, just. Just a crazy thing. I mean, when this movie started. So this movie starts with this, like, weird opening sequence of basically the. The finale, but with the credits playing over it. So you can't really see the faces and you can't really see some of the details that are going on. It's like, that's a hell of an action sequence to open a movie on with the credits still playing over it. And then it sets up. Actually, one of the things that I really liked about this movie, which is the smash cuts between scenes are really interesting. So they. There. There is a gun and it looks like the trigger is about to be pulled and there's a scream. And that scream corresponds directly into our main girl band singing. And it's a really nice cut right there. I'm like, oh, that's awesome.
14:30
Case
At this point, they're called the Kelly Affair. Later on they're going to be called the Carrie nations, but it's the. The main girl band. And we sort of set up the dynamic of this, like three girl thing with their. With their manager, which I have a note which is like, was this supposed to be a Josie and the Pussycats movie? Because it's like exactly that dynamic.
14:46
Sam
It kind feels that way.
14:48
Sean
Yeah. Or was Josie and the Pussycats based on this movie?
14:52
Case
Because now the comics came first Although Melody wasn't black until they got to this, which I think it was a 70s cartoon. When they made Melody black, so. Or introduced Melody, there was a different character, was a redhead. You know, it's one of those scenarios of like, what's. What's the minority in this group who.
15:09
Sean
Knew Hanna Barbera was so woke?
15:14
Case
Well, and there's like an extra thing going on here because the actress who plays Ashley St. Ives, the porn star character, has real Parker Posey energy. And Parker Posey is in the Josie and the Pussycats movie.
15:26
Sean
When you say energy, do you mean cocaine?
15:27
Case
Something like that? Possibly. I don't want. I don't want to like, Parker Posey is just an amazing character actress, so I don't like necessarily put anything on her. But everyone on this shoot, definitely. Yeah.
15:37
Sean
I mean, it was. It like, there's a point where you're like, boy, this is some really, like coke fueled acting. And then you're like, oh, this might actually be method fuel. The energy, the energy level. It's like Russ Meyer just kept standing behind the camera going, more, yo, more.
15:54
Case
There's a line early in the movie where one of the characters says, I guess liquor is kind of square. And I was like, oh, that's. That's the kind of vibe we're going for here. That, like, the drunks are too boring.
16:06
Sam
Yeah.
16:08
Sean
Now I'm gonna go out, run a crosstown bus. Come see the magic people.
16:14
Case
Yeah. Oh, man. Oh, yeah. So the music. So, yeah, it's a. So it's technically a musical. I fucking love it.
16:21
Sam
For me, the music is the best part of this movie.
16:24
Sean
Oh, yeah. The Strawberry Alarm Clock. Are you kidding me? Oh, yeah.
16:28
Sam
Like, they do that.
16:29
Sean
How did Russ Meyer pull that off?
16:31
Sam
Like, all the songs are really good. I mean, they're definitely of the era. Like, you know, like. Oh, yeah. If you're tuning in, this is definitely going to be like, of that time. But the voice, like, just everything about the songs, they're catchy, they sound good. You're like, yeah, I can see people really digging this band. Like, yeah, I'm going to go watch these girls, like, sing and play songs. Yeah.
16:55
Sean
They would have been popular, like a real band, like, that would have been popular at that time. That look and that sound. I mean, it was. There was. You do get the feeling that some care was put into that end of the film.
17:08
Sam
Yeah. And seriously, like, because there's a lot of things in here that are kind of like, we're gonna make this really heightened kind of insane thing that's not quite serious, but totally serious, but not quite serious. But the music is very like, whoever did it was just like, I'm gonna do this with so much care. Until about the second half of the film. And then they started putting Scooby Doo themes inside. Moments where. Where they did not belong. It just made me feel wrong. And. And I get it. But.
17:43
Sean
Oh, yeah. Well, it also.
17:45
Sam
Very jarring for me.
17:46
Sean
It also. When it starts to get into, like, some weird, like, Midnight Cowboy vibes, like, between Lance Rock and Z Man, like, with the costumes and all, I was like, is it me or did, like. Because when you think about when this movie was shot, it was probably shot about maybe a year or so after Schlesinger made Midnight Cowboy. Because this was what year come out?
18:10
Case
This came out in 1970.
18:12
Sean
Yeah. And so a year before Schlesinger made Midnight Cowboy because that scene where Z Man and Lance Rock are having their, I don't know, BDSM costume kind of tete a tete that sort of folds into murder. I was just so reminded of that scene in Midnight Cowboy where John. God, I can't play Angelina Jolie's dad, Jon Voight is on his knees, and that guy and that crazy man standing above him being like, it doesn't have to be work, Joe. It doesn't have to be work, boy. And I remember just thinking, hey, are they stealing? Are they borrowing?
18:49
Sam
They're playing. It's an homage. It's an homage at that point.
18:53
Sean
And then they have another disclaimer. Dear John Schlesinger, please don't sue us from that scene.
18:57
Sam
Please don't sue us. Don't sue us. All of this is ideas from other places pasted together to make one fever dream of a movie. Please don't sue us.
19:05
Sean
Dear John Schlesinger, Strawberry Alarm Clock, Muhammad Ali. It's got a list of everybody. Like, it just keeps showing name after name of people that they're begging not to sue them across the screen.
19:20
Case
Yeah, well, that kind of makes sense because the movie was a very small budget. Like, the official budget was 900,000. It was probably closer to 2 million. But it. And then the. Like, after release and everything, it's four. And then it actually was It. So this movie technically was a success. It grossed 9 million at the box office. All right, so technically, technically did its job, but it was a micro budget. And apparently they wrote all the scenes for existing sets that were available at the Fox backlot so that they just.
19:53
Sean
Snuck on to I. I mean, they.
19:56
Case
Got approval for it. But. But, yeah, basically it was just like, okay, here's here. Here is cool vista for us to shoot at here. Oh, did you guys notice how, like, everything is shot day for night?
20:05
Sean
Yes.
20:06
Case
In it. And it's, like, aggressive. Like, there's, like, big shadows where you're like. There's no light source that would be doing that. And any sort of night shot throughout. Like, there's one shot where, like, they're on the beach. It's when. When Harris is, like, failing to get it up with Suffocated.
20:23
Sam
That's why, like, the whole time I was watching. The whole time I was watching that, like, scene, I was like, I am so uncomfortable for him. Like, take a hit, lady. Take a walk.
20:34
Sean
Like, right there was definitely.
20:37
Case
But the point is the giant glare of sun that is just on the ocean, like, right pass.
20:41
Sean
Oh, yeah.
20:43
Case
And it's a night shot.
20:44
Sam
Right. They've tinted it just a little bit to try to make it a night shot. No, that scene made me. I couldn't notice it because I was uncomfortable for other reasons. I was just like, oh, God, he can't breathe. I can't breathe.
20:57
Sean
I know. I remember just thinking, boy, I hope that guy who looks exactly like Greg Brady wears a condom. Because, holy God.
21:06
Sam
One of my favorite things about that was that, like, at some point, he was like, can't we just use a bed? Because, like, the thing is that she's, like, always, like, asking him to do it because he invites her in the first time that they have sex, and she's like, no, I want to do it in the car. And, like, so every time.
21:23
Case
And to be fair, it's a Rolls Royce.
21:25
Sean
Yeah.
21:25
Sam
Yes. And she's very happy about that. But, like, everywhere they do it, they have to do it somewhere that is not traditional. And he's just like, I just want a bed.
21:34
Sean
Children. Use this trampoline. Shut up, big boy.
21:39
Sam
Exactly.
21:40
Sean
As the astro glide. Oh, good Lord. No. Greg Brady, stop.
21:46
Case
Yeah, so. Oh, God. Yeah. And, man, I don't even know where to go with this movie because it jumps all over the place, and it's so weird. Yeah, man.
21:55
Sean
But it crescendos. Just when you think, like, it can't get any weirder, they stack that deck.
22:01
Sam
Yeah.
22:01
Case
Well, I mean, they set it up at the beginning where it's just like, someone's gonna be running around in a Nazi outfit being chased by someone with a sword at some point, and you're like, credits are rolling. You don't know what's going on, and eventually you get there, you're like, oh, that's how this plays out.
22:17
Sean
That looks like lots of drugs. Our friend Z Man is at it again.
22:21
Sam
Yeah, I, I was very jarred when I saw the Nazi uniform. I was like, nope. Do not like that. Not at all. Was I released relieved when he died? Of course I was. But.
22:33
Case
Well, because they, like, confirmed that he was an actual Nazi at various points.
22:37
Sean
Yeah. And also when, when the lesbian character gets dressed up like Robin, I'm like, that's another disclaimer. Dear Bob Kane, please don't sue us for, like, all of the, like, at least Superwoman. You're like, okay, I can see where you're going to get away with not being sued for Superwoman, because that's just kind of a DC and like, infraction.
22:57
Case
I don't even know if there was a major character that was Superwoman at that point, because, like, Lois Lane and Lana Lange had taken the name at various points. But, like, Supergirl is the main character. No, no, it's clever.
23:09
Sean
It was. Or instead of saying Tarzan, they said Jungle Lad.
23:14
Case
I was like, right up.
23:15
Sean
But that Robin outfit. There was no. We're talking four years after William Doger's Batman series. I mean, it is very obvious that woman is wearing a Robin costume. I'm like, how did CBS now.
23:27
Sam
I'm wondering, I don't know if there was an insignia. I think that's how they got away with it because it's just like the red. It's just like the color scheme, like in the right places, but I don't think there was an R on it. And then, like, I would not be.
23:39
Case
Surprised if those are the actual suits because it was 20th Century Fox that produced that TV show.
23:44
Sean
Oh, there you go.
23:46
Sam
And like, the. What I. Who I called the Ice Queen. The Ice Queen, in my feedback, she was wearing, like, all black and she kind of had kind of points. I think it was like a little bit Batman. Like a little.
23:58
Case
Yeah, that's true. That one didn't really look like the costume from the show.
24:01
Sean
But.
24:01
Case
But yeah, the Robin suit. And they call her Boy Wonder and there's no point.
24:05
Sam
Yeah, that's right.
24:08
Sean
Oh, man. Yeah. They must have. They must have had some kind of sweetheart deal. It must have been some kind of in studio deal where they were like, yeah, don't worry about it.
24:15
Case
Yeah. Although this is a point I have to reiterate about Batman in the time, which is that prior to the 66 Batman show, no one cared about Batman. Like, Batman was not a Big successful property. Like, it was a comic that didn't get canceled in the golden age to like going into the 50s, right. But like, it's not Superman. Superman was actually the big success. And it's really. It was actually the Adam west show that started to change that whole vibe and like, really in our modern pop culture, sort of influence on it all. It's the Dark Knight Returns going right into the Tim Burton movie, like, made Batman a big commercial property.
24:50
Sean
I agree. I mean, I in. And why not? I mean, I'd follow anything Adam west did ever. I was actually quite shocked that Adam west didn't show up in beyond the Valley of the Dolls. He would have been perfect.
25:01
Case
He would have fit in.
25:02
Sean
Would have been a better Porter hall than Porter Hall.
25:04
Case
Oh, yeah. Although I got to say, the Porter Hall's like the actor who played Porter hall is named Duncan McLeod. And just because this shows association with Highlander, I need to call that part.
25:14
Sean
He had to murder three other actors who looked exactly like him to get the power to play Porter Hall.
25:19
Sam
Well, there can only be one Porter Hall.
25:21
Sean
So how great would it be when it.
25:25
Sam
When. When.
25:25
Sean
When Z Man has that sword? Like, out of nowhere, Porter hall just pulls a sword.
25:31
Sam
I mean, the worst part is he's beheaded, guys. Like, we are burying the lead, right? He is beheaded. I make Z Man the Highlander.
25:43
Sean
That's true. And he absorbed Lance Rock sexiness. Think so. I mean, although I will say, like, nowadays, like, Z Man would have fit in so perfectly with HBO's euphoria. Like, he wouldn't have, you know.
25:58
Case
Oh, yeah.
25:58
Sean
Like, he. It's a weird thing because I look at it now and I'm like, oh, no, he would have been. He would. Like, Z Man would have been huge.
26:05
Case
He was huge then. He, like, he still would be huge. Like, honestly, the villainous turn of Z Man at the end of this movie and all the other things that we'll talk about eventually about Z Man.
26:15
Sam
At the end of this movie. We will never get to it. We're going to go around in circles, like, forever. Go on.
26:19
Case
This movie is a fever dream. Sam, you were completely right. It is so hard to talk about this movie because, like, I. I still want to talk about things about the opening, like disclaimer. Because there's to talk about still.
26:29
Sam
I do. I do want to say. I will give credit. That was my friend Elena who said it. So just in Case she listens. I want her to know she gets credit. Elena was right. Go on.
26:38
Case
But I will say Z Man up until we get to the finale is pretty cool.
26:43
Sean
Oh, yeah.
26:44
Case
First of all, awesome parties.
26:45
Sam
I felt very betrayed by Z Man becoming a predator in this because I loved Z Man up until that point. I loved him. I wanted to protect him. To me, he was a. He was a Shakespearean cinnamon roll. Okay. Like, yeah. Did he have lavish parties? Was lots of drugs of it? Yes. But he didn't even mind that random people were having sex everywhere he walked, even while he was giving tours. He was just like, pardon me. Don't let me interrupt. Keep going. So polite, Z Man.
27:17
Case
The bathroom in his bedroom, in his master bedroom, people were having sex in. And he was like, no, it's okay. I just want to show her the plants. Like, keep what you. Keep at what you're doing.
27:27
Sam
And listen, I love plants, and I approve of people who raise plants. So it was a huge betrayal once he became a predator.
27:34
Sean
That's what people. How would you best describe Z Man? I'm like, he's the sort of person who could. Who could actually play a harpsichord with his own penis while putting on a cravat, if that makes any sense.
27:47
Sam
After seeing this movie. It does.
27:49
Case
He's just.
27:50
Sean
He's literally like Dionysus.
27:53
Case
Yes. Actually, that. That is perfect. Like this. This sort of bacchanalia kind of thing. Like, these. These are very old tropes. Like, the idea that fame is, like, this corrupting influence. And, like, that's theme of Valley of the Dolls, too. Like, this one is meant to be somewhat satirical. Whether it's satirical because they started working on it and realized that between, you know, Ebert being a neophyte and Myers being a predator. Well, I was gonna. I was gonna say a pornographer, but, like, I'm like, I'm not trying to cast aspirations on that or aspersions on that. Like, I just want to know that, like, it's a B movie direction.
28:28
Sean
I actually love that Freudian slip.
28:32
Case
I do have a porn treatment that if anyone ever wants, it's called the Paradox with three X's, and it involves time travel.
28:40
Sam
Of course you do. But. But you know what? This is. We should say for anyone who hasn't watched this, we're talking about how insane this movie is, but it does have a lot of not, like, sex guys, but, like, basically implied sex. Like, soft, poor, like, corn kind of moments. Bodies mashing together, that kind of stuff. But by the end of the movie, you're so desensitized by it because it's all over the place.
29:08
Sean
Oh, God, here it is boobs again, right?
29:12
Sam
Oh, and. And here they are. They're getting it on. It's like a really bad smut fiction on AO3. Like, it was like, someone's like. And then they had stuff sex. And then she felt bad that her friends had a fight and then she had sex. Like, that's basically what this movie is.
29:29
Sean
Oh, yeah.
29:29
Case
I mean, from the start of the. I mean, not from the opening, like, credits roll or the party scene, but, like, they go into, like, as soon as, like, they leave, like, the party where they're, like, performing, Kelly and Harris, like, start getting it on and it just smash cuts to them doing beat poetry while getting, like, shots of la, which includes shots of literally people having sex. So, like, it's. It's there. I watched the trailer for this, and I do not know where they aired this trailer because there's so many tits in it. I'm like, wait, was this in theaters? Was. This is definitely not for tv.
29:59
Sean
It was actually put on right before Bambi. And, like, I couldn't.
30:04
Case
I couldn't figure it out because it definitely was not a modern trailer. It was. It definitely wasn't someone who, like, made it for, like, for Amazon, which is what I watched this on.
30:12
Sean
It was.
30:12
Case
It was definitely, like, at the time trailer. I mean, maybe a couple of years later, but it was still, like, of the. Of the era. And it's a fever dream, too, because it's all the smash cuts, or not the smash cuts, like, the erratic, rapid cutting of some of these sequences.
30:28
Sean
I know the exact trailer you're talking about, and it is one of my favorites. It is one of my favorite trailers of all because it captures the mood and the insanity that.
30:38
Case
But lots of actual boob.
30:39
Sean
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Now you want to know what you're getting into. You know, I mean, it definitely doesn't. It definitely doesn't gild the lily at all. It's like, you. You. You know what. You know what you're getting into when you see there's going to BE Lots of 60s movies, lots of smash cuts, lots of boobs, lots of acting for the rafters. It's. It's, you know, it's got everything.
31:01
Case
Yeah, it's. It's amazing that this is going to drop right after our episode on the Magical Mystery Tour, which is also a 60s, like, fever dream of a movie, but, like, a very different one. Technically. This one has more of a plot.
31:13
Sam
I actually feel really sorry for any of our listeners who decide to watch the movies. I am sorry. That's too back to back. That is going to make your brain feel like, ow.
31:25
Sean
Right.
31:27
Case
I don't know if you are a fan of the classic Lucy and the sky with Diamonds. I think you'll be a fan of both of these movies. Absolutely, absolutely.
31:36
Sean
If you. And especially if you. If you were born in the 70s and you just have sort of a natural nostalgia for that sort of. That sort of cinema. I mean. I know, I know. I do.
31:46
Case
I.
31:47
Sean
Anything from. Anything from the late 60s, early 70s, I automatically have like a. Like a nostalgia fixation on because I remember those clothes. I remember that music. I remember, you know, being of that time. So it's like, you know, I'm turning 50 this year and it's crazy to me that, like, people watching. Did anybody really dress like that? I'm like, my parents dressed like that, for Christ's sake.
32:13
Case
Yeah, I have some thoughts about that. I think it is accurate to an extinct. But I think that the screenplay by Ebert. I have a hypothesis that this is. I imagine that Roger Ebert is not cool or was not cool.
32:31
Sean
I know where you're going, man.
32:33
Case
I. I have this hypothesis that the. The extravagant, crazy parties that he's describing is his imagination of the. That he's heard. Well, kind of. Yeah. And like, probably Myers was at all these parties. So there's a certain element of like, well, but, you know, like, it's going to be reined in from being too crazy and out there and fake. But really, because, like, I. I think about a lot of the times when I try to write, like, either a romantic scene or a sex scene or a party scene when I was in high school and I was not cool. I'm not trying to pretend that I was like. And it's kind of like that where nothing is technically wrong, but the way it's all jammed together and pushed just a little too far.
33:12
Case
Like, yeah, there would be times you might end up walking in on someone having sex in. In a room, but it wouldn't just necessarily be like, oh, you're just parading around through it. And maybe one time they don't care that you walk in, but, like, it just. This is the status quo. Like, all the things that are like, the like, crazy stories that heard probably got like, amped up to an 11 and also were treated as just passe.
33:33
Sean
I'd like to. I'd like to. I'd like to amend that. And I agree with you a completely. Your theory is. I completely agree. I really do think it was him alone eating Cheetos in his Studio apartment in Los Angeles being like, this is what the beautiful people were up to. They're bad, you know? I agree. But I also will say I thought it was over the top. When I was, you know, this all happened within the same year. I saw the movie, laughed about how over the top it was. But that same year, this is like my sophomore year of college, I went to one of Michael Alex parties at the Limelight.
34:15
Sean
And I don't know whether it's a chicken and egg theory here, but that bacchanal that we saw at Z Man's place, that was happening in the basement of the limelight in 1994, make no mistake, maybe Michael Alec had seen that movie and it was a favorite of his. It would have made sense. Michael Alec loved camp. But that Disco 2000 party that he was having for years at the Limelight was the exact bacchanal. And I'm talking as a kid from Salem, Massachusetts, who'd been living in New York City for two years. I go into one of those basement parties that he had there, and there's a gladiator having sex with someone in a chicken costume. There's people on roller skates that are coked out of their minds that are fighting with swords. I mean, it was all there.
35:01
Case
Yeah. I mean, again, like, I don't want to say that this shit couldn't have happened. I'm just saying it's probably.
35:06
Sean
I'm saying it happened in the movie. And a young Michael Alex said, no, we're going to make this reality entirely probable.
35:14
Case
If you read up on shit like how, like, the Godfather influenced how the actual mob would operate or how Animal House influenced how fraternities behave. Like, toga parties became a big thing because of Animal House, not the other way around. Like, so there is certainly art imitating life and life imitating art going on here. I'm sure all of these types of things were like, oh, yeah, I heard these stories. These type of things occurred. This type of thing occurred and it's all being mushed together and then presented between, you know, this nebbish fellows, like, interpretation of it. And then amped up to 11 by Meyer's artistic eye. Like, and like, probably some of the, like, probably there's like a bit more nudity because they're like, oh, we can get boobs in here.
35:55
Sean
Cool.
35:55
Case
Let's like, get the boobs in here.
35:56
Sean
Well, I mean, if you're hiring Russ Myers, I mean, come on, man. You know what? You know what you're getting into?
36:01
Case
Yeah, I want to talk about two production things before we go too far into the fever dream of this movie.
36:07
Sam
What are you talking about? We've basically.
36:10
Case
I know, I know.
36:11
Sam
We are in the midst of the fever dream. I don't know what you're saying. Like. Like, the fever is at 103. We should be checking into a hospital. Okay, Like, I don't know. You keep saying before we get into it. Case, we're in this.
36:26
Case
No, I know, I know.
36:27
Sam
Seaman has spiked your drink. All right, bro, that's not alcohol.
36:34
Sean
Let the philodendrous tendrils of your mind get yourself into it. Case, tonight is our bacchanal, and we are but together.
36:45
Case
Okay, Sorry. So the two things I did want to bring up. So, one, going back to the whole Valley of the Dolls, beyond the Valley, the doll's connection, that existed but then didn't because of legal reasons. So apparently the. The Aunt Susan character was supposed to be one of the main characters from Valley of the Dolls. And because of the lawsuits and whatnot, they. They rewrote and recast the part because it was going to be Barbara Parkins reprising her role. Which is interesting because Aunt Susan is my favorite character from the standpoint of, like, oh, no, she's just good. She's just like, yep, she's successful in her job, and when a person who never gives any proof that they're related shows up, she's like, oh, I'm totally cool with giving you a third of a million dollars. Like, no questions asked.
37:29
Case
Like, everything is fine. She seems competent. She. At no point, seems like the worst thing that happens is because the. The guy Baxter is, like, is engaged to someone else and shows up, but they're like, long lost loves, and they, like, reconnect immediately that she goes for it without, like, having any sort of, like, concern about the other person, which is, you know, not really her responsibility. It's more Baxter being kind of shitty at that.
37:53
Sean
Yeah, that was a weird kind of, like, sea story in there that I was like.
37:57
Case
And that's the thing. That's a. That's a callback to Valley of the Dolls. Like, that is a reference to how the movie ends, where it's like, he proposed. It wasn't the right time, so that's why that was in there. And when it's rewritten, it's just like, all right, cool. And, like, it's kind of a fun trivia note and would have been really fun if it was the original actors, but I like them. Like, they're cool, like, I like them just fine. I love that he shows up as like this, like Brooks Brothers, like straight lace su. And then later on he's still wearing like jackets and whatnot, but the colors have changed.
38:24
Sean
The actor who played. Wasn't that Charles Napier who played Baxter in that, who would later go on to who he was in Silence of the Lambs and a couple of other great films in the 80s.
38:35
Case
Yeah, good call on that one.
38:37
Sean
Yeah.
38:37
Case
It's weird, I just had to note that he looks like the dad from Beethoven.
38:43
Sean
Charles Groton.
38:45
Case
He looks like it at this point in the movie.
38:48
Sean
I love that. That's your note. Looks like dad from Beeth Question.
38:53
Case
He fucking does. I didn't think he was. You know, it's 30 years off.
38:57
Sean
Like, I didn't think a young Charles Napier would look like a middle aged Charles Groton. That's. Yeah, that's. I mean, good on you.
39:07
Case
I know.
39:07
Sean
I love that. What's funny is whenever I get into conversations with like other filmmakers or other writers and directors and we start talking about the movie and people who've never seen the movie get so weirded out that not only do we know the names of all the actors in it, but we also know like who the producers were, who the directors were. And the third party always looks at the first party like, what's wrong with these people?
39:32
Case
I gotta admit, I. So I watched this movie twice last night and then today, and when I went. When I was turning it on for the second time, my dad called me and I was like, hey, we're just turning on beyond the Valley of the Dolls. We have to watch it for the podcast. And he starts cracking up and my mom was like in the room and could hear it. And they were like, that's like, that's the Russ Meyer one. And I'm like, haha, Yep, that's, that's exactly right. Did Roger Ebert write that? I'm like, yep. You know a lot about this movie, dad.
40:00
Sean
It was probably like a secret. A lot of people, I think a lot more people saw that movie than people let on at the time.
40:07
Case
Yeah, well, he was a senior in high school when this movie came out. Demo must have been like the Rocky.
40:13
Sean
Horror picture show of 1970.
40:16
Case
I mean, it kind of was. Yeah, like big cult film.
40:19
Sean
God, that would.
40:20
Case
But on that note, the other thing I wanted to bring up that production wise, so this movie was shot to be an R, it got an X, but it was shot to be an R. And Meyer apparently shot a second version of this movie for an X, but after they got the X, he couldn't go back and reinsert the scenes because the studio rushed it out. So out there in. In the world. But probably no actual version that anyone could ever find because it's somewhere in a vault.
40:46
Sean
Right next to Jerry Lewis is the Day the Clown Cried. There's the. There's the Russ Myers Extra Boobalicious.
40:54
Case
Right. There is a more pornographic version of this movie.
40:59
Sean
Well, it's something to look forward to, I guess. That's got. That's going on the bucket list Case.
41:07
Case
So I. I have a note that I write a bunch of times when I was watching this movie, both the first time and the second, which is. Harris is a. Yeah, total tool. I hate that guy. This is the. Sam, the band manager guy.
41:19
Sam
Yeah, no, I. I know who Harris is. I just like calling manager, not boyfriend.
41:23
Sean
I always called him Greg Brady.
41:28
Sam
You know what? Greg Brady's a better person, so. Poor Greg Brady.
41:31
Sean
He is. At least Greg Brady can sing. I mean, you know, he started the Silver Platters. Come on, man.
41:38
Sam
I mean, Harris is just a glorified groupie now. Well, you didn't make yourself useful, mother trucker.
41:43
Sean
I mean, he really was, like, just. He was just like a skin flap. There was. There was just no. There was no purpose to Harris. I mean, yeah, he wasn't a bad guy, but, like, what, what. What was the real use of him?
41:56
Case
Circle back on that one, because I am not convinced that he's not a bad guy. Almost everything that happens to him is his own fault. Like, he seems dissatisfied with being there, always is not trying to participate, is not thrilled for any of the. The success of his theoretical friend or whatnot. And I think some of this is the. The scenes are really fast and, like, time does not make sense in this movie. Weeks go by. Everyone's still wearing the same clothes at the same party. I don't. You know, like, there's. There's a lot of stuff going on here, but he. He's kind of just a shitty person to everyone. He tries to pick a fight, gets his ass whooped, and that, like, is kind of a part of it all. Like, he rapes a girl at one point.
42:36
Case
I mean, you know, he's also up. But, like, they call it. They call it that. And then he tries to commit suicide. And everyone, like, puts all their affection on him because he tried to commit suicide and is. Is paralyzed. And then, like, at the end of the movie when, like, their friends are Dead. They're like, harris, your legs are back. Yay. It's so great. It's a miracle. Like, you hadn't fucked this guy at every. Yeah, exactly. Like this guy.
43:01
Sam
Honestly, like, I think that this is. That that through line is one of my least favorite things. Like Harris in general. But the fact that the. The script itself, and we're gonna blame Ebert for this, wants his redemption. And, like, in fact, when my least favorite part of this movie, where they start expounding the moral lessons of the film, which is fucking awful, I'm gonna say it, guys. I fucking hate it.
43:28
Sean
It was like watching, like, a bad corporate movie, being like, your friends at GM know morals are what make America smile.
43:38
Sam
Well, like. And it's such a weird thing, right? Because you've got. And I get it, right? It's sort of making fun of the debauchery, but then it. It just comes off. So, like, you know what it makes it so that Case's theory of not cool. Ebert sitting in his room complaining, a real thing, like, well, you know, if they hadn't done those terrible things, they would be fine. And that's why at the end, everyone has to get married. You're welcome. Live a good life. And it feels, like, really fucking preachy, and I hate it. But one of the things that I really hated is at the very end, when they're doing the moral stuff, they. They're talking about our lovely porn star, and they're like, she toyed with men and she didn't care about their feelings. And they show like, Harris.
44:26
Sam
And I'm like, who the cares about his feel? No, no, she's fine. She. She told him exactly what she wanted, and he was just like, I don't want to have sex on the beach. I won't have sex in a bed. Okay, fine. You're not what I'm looking for. And then he started when it picked a fight. He is the worst. He's Ted Mosby. He's the nice guy who thinks he's the nice guy, but he's not really a nice guy.
44:48
Sean
Oh, yeah, He's. He was the proto incel or proto cuck. I don't know.
44:52
Case
That's like, everyone's having a good time, so he gets mad.
44:59
Sam
Honestly, like, he, like, I mean, okay, this. This is going to come off terrible, guys. I do not support suicide or anyone jumping. But honestly, like, how fucking selfish of it is of him to make sure to try to commit suicide while the girls are on TV in front of Their live audience.
45:20
Sean
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. That is kind of a dick move.
45:23
Sam
Like, like, I'm not saying that, like, Harris should have died. I'm not saying that he should have committed suicide. I would never say.
45:30
Sean
I'm just saying it's better television if he did.
45:33
Sam
Honestly, it'd be a better script if he did.
45:38
Sean
That's like the homage to network.
45:40
Sam
But, but I will say that, like, if he wasn't such a dick, he would have just taken care of it in his hotel room.
45:53
Sean
Yeah.
45:53
Sam
Like a normal lonely person. Like,.
45:59
Sean
Like a polite shut in.
46:00
Sam
Yeah, like a polite shut in. I mean, we, A lot of people have been there, and honestly, I say call a helpline, but honestly, like, are you're really like, what are you.
46:11
Sean
Too good for tranquilizers and boxed wine, Harris?
46:15
Sam
I mean.
46:16
Case
Yeah, well, especially because the song they're playing is specifically supposed to be like an olive branch to Harris.
46:23
Sam
I know. And, and hearing it doesn't make him, like, pause. Right? Because they're like, let's sing Find it. And they're like, are you sure? Yes, I'm sure. Are you okay with it? Because we know you've been raped by him. Yeah, I'm fine.
46:35
Sean
Yeah. My feelings aren't as important as Harris.
46:39
Sam
We have to reach out to him, to the man who disappeared after, you know, getting humiliated.
46:45
Sean
And meanwhile, he's about to pull like almost like a suicidal Phantom of the Opera move in the middle of there.
46:51
Sam
He's standing in those rafters and they start singing this song. And I thought, oh, maybe it'll touch him and he'll realize. But no, the motherfucker jumped jumps. Anyway, I, you know.
47:01
Case
Yes.
47:02
Sean
I'm starting to get a feeling that when he was going to jump, like your thumbs were starting to leave your fists and you started smiling. You're like, come on.
47:12
Sam
No, I, I, I, no. Only because I did not want to ruin the girls set. And also I wanted to hear the rest of that song. Because the best part of this are, the best part of this movie is the music. Like, honestly.
47:28
Case
Yeah, yeah.
47:29
Sam
But like, and oh. Oh, my God. Guys, the line. The line that was like a life. One life is gone, but a new one is reborn. I was like, you ableist. He was just in a wheelchair. Like, I, I was like, he's not dead. All right? He's not. He wasn't dead. He wasn't never dead. And it wasn't just one life. It was three, four lives. One of them was a Nazi. So I'm only gonna count three because Z Man may have killed people, but he was my favorite until he went crazy.
48:02
Sean
The whole crazy murder thing never changed my heart. Z Man consistently was my favorite character.
48:09
Case
Yeah, Z Man's parties are fucking dope. And I would like to hang out with Z Man.
48:14
Sean
I don't care if he murders Z Man's dope. There's your T shirt.
48:19
Sam
It's so funny because the murder, the murders actually didn't bother me as much as him trying to take advantage of Jungle Boy.
48:27
Case
I mean, like, yeah, that is a little bit weird when it's just like hands starting to slide down.
48:32
Sean
Like, like I will say, man, Lance Rock was being pretty damn mean to him before he chopped his head off. Like, he was easy. Oh, man, you're just some crazy, ugly, mixed up chick. I'm like, lance.
48:45
Sam
No, Lance is a moron. All right? Like, you don't insult someone that has a sword and is clearly having a psychotic breakdown in front of you. Like, that's just common sense. Like, like every now and then, like, you know, I'm a New Yorker. I read the subway. Every now and then you can be a little crazy and that'll back people off. But like, if they have a weapon, it's not a great idea. Just a survival tip to everyone listening.
49:11
Sean
Oh, yeah, man. And you know, the weirdest thing is, like, when I'm watching this scene, because I'm watching this scene for the first time in the early 90s, but for some reason, that scene between Z Man and Lance Rock right before the murder, I was like, this reminds me a lot of my own Private Idaho with Z Man in the Udo Kir role and Lance Rock in the Keanu Reeves role. I thought, wow, I wonder if they kind of borrowed a little because I always. I mean, this is may just meet me being crazy, but there's so many times I'll see other movies and I'm like, I wonder if they got that from beyond the Valley of Dolls. I don't know.
49:53
Case
I mean, it's a cult film. Like, there's definitely a lot of influence going forward. Like if. Especially when you look at things that are like, set in like the late 60s when they're trying to do that kind of like love style. Although also, again, this movie kind of sort of was supposed to be a satire. So things like the moralizing at the end or are potentially satirical in nature.
50:13
Sean
You know, I hope it was satirical. I really. Because it's so ham fisted. Like it Was. It was so clunky. Like, the movie was so perfectly, like, off the rails. And then that monologue at the end, I'm like, no. I remember being in my dorm with a bunch of my friends stoned out of our minds. And when that monologue came on, everyone in the room was like, shut up. Yeah.
50:34
Case
Oh, especially. Especially when it's like, when I. When we get to Casey and Roxanne, and it's just like. Like, though. Though their love itself was not evil. Evil came from it.
50:45
Sean
Even. It made Jesus cry tears. I mean, even.
50:50
Case
Even if you're gonna give them the benefit of the doubt and say it's the. The abortion that she had, which also, she was raped and.
50:56
Sean
Right.
50:56
Case
But, like, even if you're gonna go with that, like, what the. Guys. What the fuck?
51:02
Sam
I just. I just kept going. God, what was I saying to myself? I was just like, why are you victim blaming? Because even. Even with Lance, they were like, he was a taker. When you take all the time, karma has a way of getting back at you. And I was like, wait, wait, wait. Like, I know that he was kind of selling himself for the evening, but, like, there was no agreement on touching. And even if he was a dick about it, like, no is no, and Z Man should have understood that. No is no. Like, no, no, no. Lance was an asshole. Lance was an asshole from the beginning of the movie to the end of the movie.
51:40
Sean
Well, that seems like what Z Man was after.
51:44
Sam
Yeah, 100%. And Z man definitely tried to lay it on thick a couple of times, and he kept getting rejected. And, like, I was just like, you know, I know that Lance is not a good person. He's not. But, like, let's not say, like, karma's the reason he died. No. Z Man being high off his ass and losing it because he was rejected once again, like, you deserve to be decapitated.
52:09
Sean
What are you, John Wayne Gacy?
52:12
Sam
Exactly. I actually just finished a documentary about John Wayne Gacy. And so that whole rope thing, I was like, nope. Flashbacks of the documentary.
52:19
Sean
Yeah, man. Like, there was. You know, it's funny. Is, like, right around the time that, like, this movie came out was like, really, like, that was right towards, like, the birth of, like, the biggest boon in serial killers in American history. Like, 1970 to 1978 was crazy. You have John Wayne Gacy, you have Edward Kemper, you have Henry Lee Lucas. You have all these, like. I don't know. It's interesting. I'm not saying.
52:51
Case
Doesn't that correspond with the rise of leaded gasoline.
52:54
Sam
Does it.
52:56
Case
Like, there's, like, some weird stats on that one. Like, just in general. Like, the number of murders associated with, like, exposure to lead by the general populace is, like, fairly like. It's definitely a correlation, if not a causality.
53:08
Sean
That's one of your best tangent trees ever.
53:12
Sam
I would like to say that we don't actually have facts on that. Please do not quote us.
53:17
Case
But. But do look at it and let us know, because I, like, this is sort of just the general. Like, I remember, like, hearing about that kind of thing, and I'm curious. Like. Like, wow, are there numbers that match up to this one?
53:28
Sean
Well, I mean, think about it, Pete. This was the. These were the ages of the gas guzzler. Like, the cars that thought they were boats, you know, like the Chevy Nova, the Chrysler New Yorker. These cars that were, like, literally the size of tanks that were just guzzling entire. I mean, like, we're. We're. I can feel us going into the precipice of a tangent tree. So I'm, like, trying to, like, stand at the edge being like, casey, is it okay we go this way or we just. Are we going back to the film or we can.
53:55
Case
We can go. Honestly, we can go. Was just like, I. I was like, literally, like, clinging to, like, a. A. A thought. I was like, I. We. We can go wherever we want. But let me just get this one out. Which was the. The whole, like, it. It technically was a sequel to the original, but they had to do rewrites.
54:09
Sam
Sean, he. His drink is laced by Z Man. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
54:15
Sean
Then let your tangent tree grow. My brother, he has.
54:20
Case
Well, that's what you. With this movie. Like, the script goes all over the place and keeps adding new plots, spots, like, at random spots.
54:25
Sam
Oh, yeah, this movie is a soap opera. Like, oh, yeah, like, this movie is like a soap opera. Like, you know, like, there were a couple times that I was like, no, Mediga. Like, it was ridiculous.
54:39
Sean
Like, Santo.
54:42
Sam
Like, honestly, like. Like, even, like, okay, so the boxer, who may or may not be a very uncomfortable, possibly slightly racist interpretation of Muhammad Ali. He. He convinces Petty Pru. Pets. I knew it was something. Pets. I was like, of course she'd be named after. You know, something you'll keep pets. He convinces pets, you know, because she's so upset like that, you know, first of all, he asks her if she's dating a colored brother and says he's gonna take her out to the dance floor and keep her warm for her boyfriend. And then he basically convinces her when she's really upset, like, emotionally distraught over the fact that both Kelly and Douchebag not. Not Lance, the other have, you know, that, like, they've both been humiliated and so hurt. No. My God. And he's just like. Like, they don't need you.
55:46
Sam
They don't need you. I need you. And then she sleeps with him. And then her boyfriend comes home, and I'm like, oh, no, the law students. Like, it's so ridiculous.
55:56
Sean
Guys, the whole time you were talking, you had said something so inspirational at the beginning of that sentence that my mind exploded. I love the idea. We have to make the sketch the Telemundo version telenovela of Beyond Los Valleys, of the doll.
56:16
Case
Honestly.
56:16
Sam
Honestly, it would be incredible. And the acting would still be at the same level of heightened thing. And the only thing is that maybe the car scene might be even more violent.
56:31
Sean
But who would play Z Man, though? I mean, who? Like, what? What? Like, I think. I think Lin Manuel might. Might be wonderful. That is.
56:41
Sam
That is from.
56:42
Sean
From. From the Heights and.
56:45
Sam
Yeah, yeah.
56:47
Case
Lin Manuel Miranda.
56:48
Sean
He might be a great Z Man. Yeah.
56:50
Case
Although Z Man. Like, one of the things that's interesting is that he has this, like, ethereal quality. Like, he's Mediterranean. Like, the actor is actually Mediterranean. Native American. Oh, wow. And there's, like, this sort of, like, interesting aspect of, like. Well, like, aside from, like, some references of, like, you know, like, oh, is he a brother? Yada, yada. This is not a fairly. This is not a racist film. Like, there's. There's no point where any of the characters who are black are, like, put down by virtue of their race or, like, cast aside.
57:17
Sean
No, but there's definitely some white written black dialogue where I'm like, yes, take a bite of your watermelons. I'm like, dear God, no.
57:27
Sam
Yeah, yeah. It's funny because within the universe, no one is racist. However, the actual script itself has issues.
57:39
Case
Yeah.
57:39
Sean
I mean, there's so many. There's so many times there, like, whenever, like, I would get, like, really uncut because I. When I was watching it in college, I was watching it with one of my best friends who was black in the room. And every time two black people start talking, I get this, like, acid reflux in my stomach. Like, please don't say something awful. Please don't say something awful. Stay, soul brother. What's going on with that sister? And I'd be like, I'm sorry, Tony. I'm sorry.
58:04
Sam
I will say, going back to Case's theory, that a lot of the slang didn't work, though. Like, I think that Ebert threw in a you dig. You dig. Any time he didn't know what else to put in.
58:19
Case
Like, there's one point where Kelly answers the phone and she goes, it's your dime.
58:24
Sean
Knock on his neighbor's door. He'd be like, excuse me, Lamont. What is it, Roger? How would you say this? I'm in the middle of. Would you say that you dig it? Please go away, Roger.
58:37
Case
Literally cooking pasta right now. Please stop.
58:40
Sean
I'm writing my dissertation. Okay. Would you say that you dig your dissertation? Goodbye, Rod.
58:44
Case
But actually, I mean, like, again, like, good point here. Emerson, like, is a aspiring law student. So, like, again, I don't think that the universe itself is racist. I think that just Roger Ebert is trying to sound cool.
58:57
Sean
Roger. I don't think he's a racist. I don't think Roger Ebert ever had any friends that weren't white or nerds. Right.
59:04
Sam
It's just. It's not written authentically. It's the nicest way we can place it.
59:09
Case
Yeah. Should we talk about the actual finale? I mean, we've referenced a lot of it, but, like. Yeah, the thing that is probably the most awkward to talk about, especially in the current.
59:19
Sean
Baby.
59:20
Case
Oh, my God. Especially in the current, like, culture of today. And, like, I don't know what the right words to say are on this one. Like, it's revealed that Z Man has boobs and is. It's interpreted as Z Man has always been a woman in drag of some sort. And I don't know what the right kind of.
59:39
Sam
Yeah, it's.
59:39
Case
Anything is here to describe it.
59:41
Sam
It's kind of strange because the. The script doesn't let you know if Z Man is trans or if Z Man is intersex. It kind of leaves it up to your interpretation. But Z Man is saying that in the moment, Seaman is Superwoman. So I think from here on out, let's refer to Superwoman.
01:00:05
Case
Right.
01:00:06
Sam
So at the point that Superwoman reveals her breasts, what is a very awkward shot underneath of.
01:00:16
Sean
Oh, yeah.
01:00:18
Case
Also, to be clear, the actor is a man.
01:00:20
Sam
Yes. The actor is a man.
01:00:22
Sean
A very pretty man.
01:00:24
Sam
Yes. With incredible bones.
01:00:26
Sean
Yeah.
01:00:26
Case
Like, very. Oh, my God. Again, it's. It's this weird quality of just being, like, this, like, otherworldly beauty.
01:00:32
Sean
Yeah, it definitely. And it came around to the right point in my life where I started going, like, huh, Maybe I could flip that way.
01:00:40
Case
Yeah.
01:00:40
Sean
That Z Man ain't Bad, like a Kinsey too.
01:00:45
Sam
I mean, honestly, like with a bone structure like that, I'm pretty sure that Z Man could have had other people. And I think that he could have.
01:00:52
Sean
Done better than Lance Rock. Come on.
01:00:54
Sam
One thing.
01:00:55
Case
Lance Rock had a Jack Kirby face. Like, like I have so many notes. It's like that's exactly how Jack Kirby draws superheroes. And like if you're into superhero, which I think Zman, both the, both the nickname they go by in their day to day and their bedwar Persona and then how they dress all their other people for their special parties. Like I think Z Man's into superheroes. Like I can imagine. Imagine that. Jack Kirby is Z Man's kink.
01:01:24
Sean
Wow, man.
01:01:25
Sam
Yeah, that's probably. Yeah.
01:01:29
Sean
Now just stand in a pose with one fist up. Lance, leap forward.
01:01:34
Case
We'll call it your splash page. We'll call it the splash page.
01:01:38
Sean
Because I. Splash page.
01:01:41
Sam
You know, here's the thing. You can also make the Case that like Lance put himself out there for a lot of different people. I mean like he was dating women that were much, much older. Like, he's basically a gold digger.
01:01:53
Sean
Like that's, he's basically a scientologist.
01:01:56
Case
Well, it actually in the notes it lists Lance is a gigolo. But I don't know if that's really anything beyond just sort of like a moralizing component to it. Yeah, I think like gold digger I.
01:02:07
Sam
Think is right because in the first act when, when Zman is kind of telling Kelly all about everyone at the party, he does say that Lance is an actor and that he uses his body and his good looks to kind of try to advance that. But I, I assume that he's not actually like very good at acting. And so he probably.
01:02:30
Case
He's a part time actor.
01:02:31
Sam
Right. And so he's basically like dating all of these rich women and so going after Kelly. He goes after her because he knows that she's going to inherit money and she's at least more attractive and younger than most of the women he's been dating. And I think on some level for Z Mann, he's like, hello, I am bewitching. I am superwoman and I am so fucking rich. How much of my alcohol and my drugs have you had? Give some to mama.
01:03:04
Sean
Right.
01:03:05
Sam
Honestly, like I really.
01:03:06
Sean
Time to pay the pie for lands.
01:03:09
Sam
Yes, exactly. Like, I feel like that's. I think that's part of it, which is like very difficult for someone like me who wants to not become A Z Man apologist, but feels myself inching that way because. Because he really is so open and wonderful about like just accepting, like. Like just like Aunt Susan when he, When Kelly shows up and like starts telling himself, he shows her around again. Yes, she is gorgeous, you know, like, but he shows her around, he like, tells her the lay of the land and then insists that she plays his party. And he knows all the important people that are at his party. He knows that can be a boost. He's actually quite generous, even if he is, you know, a little bit out there and likes to use couplets and dramatic language. But.
01:04:00
Sam
But he's actually very generous to Kelly, who's Susan's niece, the minute he meets her.
01:04:07
Sean
True.
01:04:07
Sam
So like, you know, and this is why people like me and Sean are now trying to excuse him even though he's a monster at the end. I admit it. He's a monster at the end.
01:04:19
Sean
I know, but he is. But he's just such a beautiful monster, really. He really is. Usually I always think you're like. I think Tim Curry may have cribbed a little bit from Z Man in creating Frank N. Furter in Rocky Show.
01:04:35
Case
Oh yeah, absolutely. In terms of. I can see it.
01:04:39
Sean
I mean, even the accent, even his enunciation was like, oh, wait a second. Because it's only about three years difference. Four years.
01:04:48
Sam
I think where the script makes it complicated is the fact that it is revealed that Z Man has these breasts at the exact moment that Z Man is losing it, which creates a intersex slash trans villain which makes it in a today's light, not great.
01:05:11
Case
Oh yeah, right. You know, particularly because it was a last minute change. Like. Like it was written. They'd already started shooting the movie when they did because they started shooting it before they had like fully fleshed out the script. I know, right? Yeah. So that decision was made after they'd already started. Started filming a good chunk of it. So they couldn't go back and rewrite some of the scenes to sort of support that thesis. Like there are some like. Like you can tell some subplots are like there from the beginning. Like the stuff with Roxanne and Casey. Like they start alluding to Roxanne having a thing for European girls because they're more open from the first scene. She shows up and like Casey every single time there's any talk of sexuality is super uncomfortable. Except for when talking about it with women.
01:05:51
Case
Like, so they're like. That's set up throughout the entire piece. But the Zman stuff is really just like. Like, they got to this point, they're like, fuck, how do we finish this movie? What if Z Man actually a woman and murders everyone? And again, keep in mind, all the drugs. And they're like, yes.
01:06:09
Sean
You're not just saying that because we just finished the Z8 ball? No, I'm saying because it's a picture. This is gonna be the greatest. This is gonna be my Ten Commandments, my Ziegfeld Follies.
01:06:22
Sam
I think the only thing is that, like, so, again, like, the. The biggest problem seen from a modern light is that you're making a, you know, a. Even if. Even if it's done at the last minute, right, it's still making a trans character, the villain, when there's not a lot of trans representation. And so, like, that was an uncomfortable moment followed by a beheading. That was fine for me, apparently.
01:06:46
Sean
Oh, yeah. But, ooh, that Lance Rock,.
01:06:52
Sam
You know, and. And so, like, I. I think up until that moment, you know, Z Man being Z Man was fine. And even, like, being gay fine, like, you know, he'd never crossed really a line of. Of true impropriety other than just being like, anytime you want a space in my bed. Which was, like, kind of normal, actually. That was, like, the most chill everyone had been in this movie.
01:07:16
Sean
Absolutely. He was a gentleman compared to Harris.
01:07:20
Sam
He was. He was like the least skeevy person in this film in a lot of ways. Until he lost it.
01:07:28
Sean
Oh, yeah. Well, you know, it's funny. Even the first time I saw it, when, like, Lance Rock starts, like, egging him on, I remember thinking, oh, this won't end well.
01:07:38
Case
Right. I thought it first sucks because up until that point, the movie is actually like. Like, sure, there's some stereotypes. Again, it's the same problem that we have with, like, it's representation of black people, but, like. Like, it's fairly gay friendly up until you get to all of a sudden the gay Panic finale, right?
01:07:56
Sean
And then Z med eats all of them, because that's what they do them. Yeah, yeah.
01:08:02
Sam
And. And the super preachy end with the. The like. Because. Because up until the point, like, it's. It's actually like, you know, like, everyone is doing everything that they want. And. And I mean, the Ice Queen, her. Her relationship with poor Casey is very strange and also, like, wildly underdeveloped. It's. It's underdeveloped, but at the same time, the Ice Queen is definitely a manipulator and a predator. And, like. And it's very odd, like, that whole scene where, like, after she has the abortion, she's like, under the tree, and she's just like, thank you for being there for me. And then, like, the ice queen just reaches out and touches her boob. And I was like, how long has it been since she had her abortion? What are you doing? Like, lifeless tree. What the yo.
01:08:59
Case
Like, yeah, the timing on all that is weird. Cuz, like, I got there. I got there.
01:09:04
Sean
Didn't have a good time in this movie at all.
01:09:06
Case
No, Casey did not. No, honestly.
01:09:08
Sam
Honestly, the fact that Casey dies and Harris lives and he gets to walk again made me so angry at the end. Like, I was just like, you know what?
01:09:18
Sean
I can't believe I'm saying this, but what was the miracle that let Harris walk again?
01:09:23
Case
Well, they just said in some minor percentage. And then the stress of being there while the scuffling or scuffling was going on to try to, like, restrain Z Man. And ultimately Z Man dies, like, triggered Harris's walking. However, I have a giant question, which is why was Harris there? Like, they get the call, and they're like, we have to race over there. And they wheel out Harris, and then they help him get into the car very slowly, and they fold up his. His wheelchair and, like, stick it in the trunk. And then they, like. Then they drive on over. And I'm like, why did you waste your time? Why wasn't Harris just on the phone trying to call the police to get there while they were racing over there?
01:09:57
Sean
Tie Harris to the hood like a deer. You would have gotten there.
01:10:01
Case
I mean, just have, like, a ski line for.
01:10:04
Sam
Yeah, honestly, like, several mistakes were made. First, Casey, why would you call your friend? Friends call the cops. You got one phone call to me. Why are you wasting Kelly? I'm at Seaman's house and he's killing everyone. Come over.
01:10:18
Sean
Bring your guitar and tambourine.
01:10:21
Sam
And then she basically. And then Harris grabs the phone because apparently Kelly doesn't know how to listen to information. He's just a douche nozzle. And so he grabs the phone, and she's just like, oh, my God, it's happening. Call the police. And he's just like, guys, we gotta go. That's not what Casey said, Harris. That's not what she said. She said, call the police. And they get up and, like, Scooby Doo music. And I was just like, what? What is he? He's. He's Shaggy. He's. He can't do anything.
01:10:52
Sean
He's not even as useful as Shaggy. Like, Shaggy at Least. At least accidentally foils bad guys. Harris is jagged. Harris just screws everything up.
01:11:03
Sam
Like, Harris couldn't even do anything before he was in a wheelchair. Like, Harris has been ineffectual this entire movie.
01:11:11
Sean
Like, and now he's ineffectual with wheels.
01:11:14
Sam
Like, in fact, the wheels might make him more effectual, but, like, it doesn't matter. But not Harris, because it's Harris and.
01:11:22
Sean
He's the cousin Oliver of everything.
01:11:25
Case
My God, he's Scrappy Doo.
01:11:30
Sean
I hate him.
01:11:30
Case
Let me add him.
01:11:31
Sean
I hate him just as much.
01:11:34
Case
I know.
01:11:35
Sean
It's so funny. Like, I hadn't realized how much I hated Harris until he started talking about him. And then I was like, you're right.
01:11:40
Case
I always heard, no, fuck this guy.
01:11:42
Sean
Yeah, fuck Harris.
01:11:44
Sam
So, but, like. But, like, in my head, I'm just like, all of these people are morons. Like, what?
01:11:51
Sean
Like, I'm like, yeah, not a sharp knife in the drawer.
01:11:54
Case
I mean, oh, no.
01:11:56
Sam
Oh, no. We have to head over there. No, you don't. People are being murdered. Like, what is this? No, you call the cops, baby. You go and you stand at a safe distance. You don't know what this man is killing with. He's got so many weapons in his house and so much drugs. You know this.
01:12:15
Sean
If that film had been made today, they all just would have gotten out their smartphones and filmed it from across the street.
01:12:23
Sam
And for all they knew, like, his Nazi bartender was on his side.
01:12:30
Sean
What? Like, I mean, what was that? What was. Like, I'm asking you. I'm literally asking you, what was that? When the whole Nazi thing in there,.
01:12:39
Case
Like, well, so they set it up early. They. They do mention that he's got this Germanic con. Continence. And then they keep on having allusions to World War II throughout it. So it is set up.
01:12:50
Sean
Wow.
01:12:51
Case
And then they deck him out in Nazi regalia for the finale. Yeah. Which I like, frankly, if you want me to care less about you murdering a character who up until this point has only been nice. He has served drinks. He's been very friendly with the African American waiter, which is, you know, again, like. Like, this is actually a world that doesn't have racism. Which is interesting that, like, one of the villains. I. I don't know. One of the casualties of this whole situation is a Nazi. And you're like, I care less about this one because he's a natural person.
01:13:18
Sean
Nazis. The real victims was the polite Nazi. Really.
01:13:24
Case
I mean, he doesn't do anything bad at any point except for putting on a Nazi Uniform. Well, exactly. Except for putting a Nazi uniform at the insistence of his boss.
01:13:32
Sean
That's true.
01:13:32
Sam
But then his boss yells at him, like. Like, literally, when he's murdering him. He basically says something with, like, you're. You think you can get away with it and live?
01:13:42
Case
Oh, yeah, he does say killing 6 million Jews at one point.
01:13:45
Sam
Yeah, he. Like, he's like. Like, he's like. While they were in camps and, like, he. He's saying this as he's stabbing him. And I'm like, did they put this in here just so at the end they could stab a Nazi? Like, is that the whole reason why he was a secret Nazi all along? Like.
01:14:02
Sean
And that.
01:14:02
Case
I don't know about secrets.
01:14:03
Sean
That was a young Tarantino's inspiration for Inglourious Basterds. Once again, the giving tree. Creatively, that is Russ Meyer's opinion.
01:14:12
Sam
Office.
01:14:12
Case
Oh, yeah. Tarantino definitely likes this movie. Like, there's no question that this would be on his list of, like, inspirations.
01:14:19
Sam
They gave him, like, the name of a war criminal. I can't remember what it was. He was like. That is believed that he was possibly. And I can't remember what it was, but I was just like, are you guys. I was like, I don't. I'm not gonna Google this, because I don't want Google to be like, why is she looking up old Nazis? But I was like, is that an actual name?
01:14:40
Sean
I just love the idea of Google being like, samantha, listen, at this point,.
01:14:46
Sam
Every time I rent or stream a movie for this podcast, I seriously wonder if my Internet is like, samantha, do you need help? Are you sure?
01:14:56
Sean
We got another blip again, scrolling.
01:15:02
Case
Oh, God. This movie. I mean, like. Like, oh, man. There's. There's just so much. There's. There's just so much. Like, we haven't even talked about Kelly, aside from, like, as her relations to others.
01:15:14
Sean
Theoretically, try being a main character in that circus. I mean, like, how do you. How do you pull focus in that movie? You know? It's like, right? Oh, really?
01:15:25
Case
Well, not with that American accent.
01:15:27
Sean
Okay.
01:15:27
Sam
There.
01:15:27
Sean
Because there were some times where I was British. That was an odd inflection there. That makes a lot of sense now, actually.
01:15:35
Case
Yeah. Wow.
01:15:36
Sean
Because she did kind of look like Lulu, who was like, a big, like, buxom, redheaded British singer in the 60s. She was. She. Her big hit was to sir with Love with Sidney Poitier.
01:15:47
Sam
Oh, yeah.
01:15:48
Sean
And she does kind of look a bit like her. I don't know.
01:15:50
Sam
Yeah, I could see that. I will say about Kelly. And then we should probably break for as nuts because we're gonna, this is gonna be like a three hour episode if we don't curb ourselves. But I will say about Kelly that she, that like really her biggest flaw is just her ambition. And so like, I kind of didn't have a problem with her at all. Like, she just, she really is free wielding and she likes the place that she's living in and she's fine with free expression. And like, I kind of was just like, yeah, no, fuck Harris. Like, I didn't like Lance, but like, I was just like, yeah, you don't need that guy. Like, he's dead weight. He's a rock. He's bringing you down. You're a star, baby. Keep going.
01:16:39
Sean
Absolutely. Although when she sleeps with Porter Hall, I'm like, Kelly, Yeah, Kelly. Yeah, yeah.
01:16:46
Case
That was probably the one scene that I was like really dubious about. But she already had started to sort of be controlled by Lance, which was honestly her worst thing that she did in this whole thing because he started being like, no, you should try to demand more money.
01:16:59
Sam
And which honestly, like, I think she would have backed off a little bit had Porter not been such a dick when she finally went to the office to see her. Like, I think she had gone there to like actually have a conversation and maybe talk about the possibility, but the fact that he was just like, you dirty, You're a terrible human being. And she was like, now I want half you. And I respect that. I respect that. You know the worst thing she did, her line reading for her guilt about Harris. That's the worst thing she did.
01:17:31
Sean
I thought you were gonna say the worst thing she did was Harris.
01:17:35
Sam
That's fair.
01:17:38
Case
Also true. I mean like, yeah, all this, all the stuff with Porter, but like Kelly's just not the strongest actress in this whole thing. Which is good that she isn't given the most juicy parts in the song. Like, like, I, I can't imagine her doing like Casey's role. Like, I, I agree Cynthia Myers did a really good job in that part and like selling this. But, but yeah, all the stuff with her talking about her inheritance, about her relationship with her Aunt Susan, like, all this stuff's really awkward. She is a champ, however, because they have one shot, like there's a lot of really creative like camera movements and so forth in this movie. And there's one shot that comes up through a bed on her having sex with Lance.
01:18:21
Case
And you can see clearly that they are having sex on the bed springs of a mattress. Like, no. Actual. No. No fabric period. And then when it cuts back to them and it's more like traditional shot, like, there's sheets of.
01:18:32
Sean
The magic of bed bath.
01:18:33
Case
So they had this very clear shot that she was okay with, like, just lying there on bed, like, literal bed springs while they were doing the sex scene. And it was like, yeah, that. That. That girl is like, you know, put up with some. On this shoot. Yeah. Like, kind of man. Also, fuck Porter. Like, all of his scenes are like, I don't understand why he's such a dickbag. Like, he's like, you're in a rock band, a hippie. What would your father, the senator, say? And he's, like, sexually harasses everyone.
01:19:02
Sean
Keep waiting for him to, like. To, like, tie someone to the railroad tracks and twiddle his mustache.
01:19:07
Sam
Actually, Porter's the only person that's worse than Harris movie.
01:19:11
Sean
Wow.
01:19:13
Sam
Yeah.
01:19:13
Sean
Wow. I did not see that coming. But okay.
01:19:16
Sam
Yeah. Every now there's a plot term like, no me diga. Like, it's just like, there it is. There you go.
01:19:26
Sean
Well, thank God Charles Napier showed up and made it all better, you know? Yeah.
01:19:32
Sam
Oh, God.
01:19:34
Case
Yeah. It's. Yeah. Like, when he gets fired, I'm like, yes, thank you. That's exactly what we needed here. That's good. Good. I have two notes that I want to throw out before we take a break. One is that this is Pam Grier's first feature film. She's an extra. She's not, like, a big part. She's credited as Woman four at one of the parties. And I watched the second time. I knew she was there, and I, like, watched for her, and I didn't see her. So, like. But she's in the. Like, she's even in the credits, not just on IMDb, so that's pretty cool. Yeah. The other thing is that this is a movie, as we noted it, written by Roger Ebert.
01:20:07
Sean
Oh, my.
01:20:07
Case
Guess what Gene Siskel had to say about this movie.
01:20:11
Sean
Yeah, let her.
01:20:12
Sam
Please tell us. Please tell us.
01:20:14
Case
So let's see the. Gene Siskel gave the film 0 stars out of 4, writing in the Chicago Tribune that the film unfolds with all of the humor and excitement of a padded bra. And then he goes on to say, boredom of Plenty is provided by a screenplay which for. For some reason has been turned over to a screenwriting neophyte, which is like, that's amazing. Yeah.
01:20:36
Sean
I just love the idea of Roger Ebert sitting in his apartment and reading this and being like, Sisko.
01:20:43
Case
I'll get you someday, Sisko.
01:20:46
Sean
And it's. I love the idea that it just cuts back to a full head of hair. Gene Siskel being like,.
01:20:57
Case
Yeah. So this actually goes into my final point about this movie, which is that while it made its money, it was critically panned at the time. Like, it has become a cult film in retrospect, especially because of, you know, ample reasons that many of the actors might be presenting for perhaps fans who were looking for something like that. One of the great quotes, Charles Champlin of the Los Angeles Time had a great quote, which is, it is a grievously sick melange of hyper mammalian girls.
01:21:29
Sean
That should have been on the DVD cover.
01:21:31
Case
It's amazing. Like, just as a quote, but. But the point is, critics hated this movie, like, it did do, at the very least double its total cost, like, including publicity and media, but possibly even much better than that. So, like, from the standpoint of, like, financial success, it was well or did well. But, like, you know, what wasn't well regarded at the time and comes off as a fever dream to everyone who watches it. And sometimes you're in the mood for that. But. So why don't we take a break, shout out one of the shows on our network, and when we come back, let's speculate on how we could have possibly turned down the fever a little bit, just, you know, made it so that, like, you can, you know, hold down some water a little bit better for this one.
01:22:15
Sam
Yeah. Make it a little more dreamy and less nightmarish.
01:22:19
Sean
See, I'd go the other way, but that's just.
01:22:22
Case
Video games are a unique medium. They can tell stories, immerse us in strange, fantastic worlds, blur the very boundaries of our reality. But at the end of the day, video games are fun, whatever fun is to you. I'm Jeff Moonan. And I am Matt, AKA Stormageddon. And on Fun and Games, we talk about the history, trends, and community of video games.
01:22:44
Sean
It's a celebration of all the games we play and all the fun we find within them.
01:22:48
Case
And there's so many more games out there, so we hope you'll share in that conversation with us. Fun and Games podcast with Matt and Jeff.
01:22:56
Sean
Find us on certainpow.com or wherever you.
01:22:58
Case
Get your podcasts and happy gaming. And we're back. All right, so we're going to talk about how we could fix this movie. I'm going to throw this one out there at the top, which is that this is not the first time I've made this claim on the show. But I think that this is a movie that. That would do wonderfully as a stage adaptation. I think that as a musical. And sure, it can be a titillating musical. It can be a burlesque show. We know people who do burlesque shows. There are a lot of, like, people who could make a lot out of this. The music's. There's a lot of bangers on this soundtrack. Even if we can't get the licensed music, like, even if you're just taking the stuff that was written for it, which is most of the girls stuff, like.
01:23:37
Case
And you can fill it out a little bit. The unreality of a lot of the scenes are. Are amazing. Like, there's all this, like, time compression that feels really weird in this movie because it's like. Well, for one thing, there's all these shots where that they reuse, like, they show. They say they show us the same party a whole bunch of times. And so it's really hard to track, like, where scenes are, but on stage we're okay with that. Like, we would all be down for these, like, party scenes being like, oh, it's actually a stretch of time, and. And things like that. And I think it would just work. Work really well and go. Yeah, I think it would be a purifying effect on the sort of.
01:24:15
Case
Lots of ideas that are going on in this movie that didn't necessarily get boiled down to the right distillate. I think it would be a fucking dope show. I don't know of anyone ever doing it. I hope someone does.
01:24:28
Sean
Listen, I'm with you. I say let John Waters do the book and let Paul Williams do the music. Like, really just.
01:24:36
Case
Waters is cited as adoring this movie, so I actually could see that happen.
01:24:40
Sean
Oh, John Waters would do it so perfectly, like, so lovingly, you know, like hairspray. I mean, like. Oh, yeah, it would be per. And it would also. John Waters at the helm. You know, he'd be a lot more responsible about the gay panic and, like.
01:24:55
Case
Oh, yes, absolutely.
01:24:57
Sam
Yes, yes, 1,000%. He would fix that.
01:25:00
Sean
Paul Williams was writing hits when this movie came out. I mean, you gotta bear in mind, Paul Williams wrote all of the songs for the Muppet movie, including the Rainbow Connection. He also wrote the Carpenter song We've Only Just Begun. He was also an iconic 70s songwriter. And, like, if you can't get the rights to some of the songs that we had, Paul Williams, I bet, would jump right in there. I mean, what else are you doing right now? I mean, you know, it would be real good. It'd be real fucking good. And I love the idea of a staged version of this. Man.
01:25:29
Sam
Man.
01:25:29
Sean
That would be like a midnight show that you go to in some theater at, like, the Minetta Lane at, like, midnight. You know, it becomes like now.
01:25:37
Case
I'm, like, kind of curious if we should start like, working on this for, like, Nymph.
01:25:44
Sean
This thing would blow the doors off Edinburgh Fringe.
01:25:47
Sam
I mean, you could definitely show it at regular times. One of my friends, this was years ago, she was in Showgirls, the musical. And. And, yeah. And so. And it was. It was fun. It was great. It was wonderful. And everyone.
01:26:00
Case
I used to work at theater for Naked Boys singing.
01:26:02
Sean
Oh, right.
01:26:04
Case
We could definitely get into this and like that. But that is not the thing that they would have done at the time. This is me talking about an adaptation, which is why I'm just throwing it out there at the top, because I'm not allowed to go first.
01:26:18
Sam
So, Sean, he takes too many notes.
01:26:20
Case
Sam has a hard rule ever since she came on as co host that I. I cannot go before her because of my Conan the Barbarian pitch. So the 2011 remake movie. No, we're not. We have not talked about the 1980 classic or 1982 classic, because that shit is fucking gold.
01:26:39
Sean
But no argument there, pal. Yeah, I.
01:26:43
Case
So again, I'm not allowed to go first. But that doesn't mean that you have to go first. Sean, it can be. Sam, you are our guest. You are allowed to.
01:26:50
Sean
You know what I want to see. I want. I want to know Sam's take.
01:26:53
Sam
All right, well, then I will go first. So, you know, honestly, I think that this movie is a lot of fun, despite the fact that my brain had to process it later. It's definitely one of those. Those things that it's a ride and it's gonna throw everything at and the kitchen sink at you. And I'm kind of fine with that. I'm. I'm. I'm fine with all of that. I'm fine with the debauchery. I'm fine with. Well, we all know I love Z Man. You know what? I'm even gonna keep my least favorite characters in here. I might want them to look over the script and kind of fix some of the lines, because I think some of the. The lines are very clunky, especially when it comes to slang of that time. It's just very like.
01:27:43
Sam
And there are things that are very heavy handed. Like, Porter's character is very heavy handed. He's almost Cartoonish with the way that he is. So I would want to.
01:27:54
Sean
It's like he defecates Legos.
01:27:56
Sam
Yeah. It's ridiculous. So I would like, I would keep his essence the same, but I would fix some of his lines to kind of be a real creepy, you know, like to feel more real. And the way that he's trying to convey. Convince Susan that Kelly is someone that she couldn't trust. Feel more realistic because he never really feels like a full threat because he's so cartoonishly bad at convincing because he's just like, she's a terrible person. She's a hippie, she's a rock star. How could you, like, you know, even trust her? And it's like, okay, this kid already had like, she's. She's been in LA in a few days and she already has like a record contract. Like, clearly she's not here, James. Just for Susan's money.
01:28:40
Sam
So I just, I feel like I would like to make him feel a little more real so that the stakes feel more real for Kelly, giving her like a real reason to desperately sleep with him. Like, if we're going that route, I'm not changing much. I'm fixing, I'm polishing really is what I want for my another pass. We can still let Kelly because her main flaw is like this like blind ambition to get the inheritance that her mother never received. To get a portion of it and to live her dreams on stage. Right. Which is. This is a classic. This is a classic band. Gets to that lead singer. All fame goes to her head. That's fine.
01:29:27
Sam
And Porter being in the way and seducing him and realizing that her body, because of her experience first with Manager and then with Lance, this shows her that her body has power. That's fine. That's fine. She can, she can do that. I don't necessarily want to take that out of the script. I'm gonna put a shirt on the boxer because it's just ridiculous. And it's fine. He can take it off, but he should show to up to the party with the shirt on. And then when he's dancing, take it off. I just don't want him to be such a caricature that he's just always nude everywhere he goes. Until he finds his amazing yellow jacket.
01:30:10
Sean
Later on his court appointed yellow jacket.
01:30:14
Sam
He's court appointed.
01:30:16
Sean
I sentence you to a barracuda.
01:30:19
Sam
The end is a little troubling to Me, because of the gay panic. But I'm. I'm okay with it going down. I'm okay with like, it getting crazy. I probably wouldn't have introduced the added measure of trans, like, because that just takes it to another level where it's like, again, I understand, like, this is all stops pulled out shock. But I would feel like that's where I would pull back specifically and have. Have him just be really. Just have Z Man be really pissed off at being rejected. And I think he should like, basically slut shame, even though I hate slut shaming. But I think he should actually, like, voice his disappointment about the fact that he feels that Lance would. Would sleep with anyone and do anything for money, so why not me?
01:31:13
Sam
And like, make it like, rooted in a real, like, rejection and this fact that like, maybe like he throws all these parties because he doesn't think that people like him enough. And that's kind of why, you know, if he's supplying all the booze and all the alcohol and all that's the same thing, Samantha. The booze and the drugs and the music and. And he's doing all this stuff to keep people going. And that fleshes the man out even more. I mean, you do get a moment of him looking disappointed that the women decide that the girls decide to sing Find it at the show rather than sing one of the songs that he clearly helped them with on the album that helped support. And so I do think that he. There it. There is.
01:31:57
Sam
There are clues every now and then that Z Man may be more susceptible to the idea of just, like, rejection. Right. Like, even though he's this big time thing. So I would like to like, flesh that out a little bit for him and especially because I love him and I think that he's genuinely like a really great character. So, you know, expand Z Man's role so that you have a vulnerability for when he starts murdering everyone. Although I'm not quite sure why he murders the Ice Queen other than like, he's just got to get rid of the evidence now that he's murdered Jungle Boy. So I, I guess that's why. But she was sleeping and I feel like she might be the kind of friend that would help you hide the body. Like, I don't know. Like, I feel like.
01:32:39
Sam
I feel like there's a lot of stuff that happens just for the sake of Ghoul and I feel like it plays against the character types. Like, I feel like if he had woken her up and Like, I murdered jungle boy. She'd be like, I've got some shovels and I know where we can find some pigs. Like, I just feel like.
01:32:54
Sean
And then it just freeze frames on them, high fiving like.
01:32:58
Sam
Yeah, like I.
01:33:00
Case
Well, especially because Casey, like, he doesn't see Casey. Like, he sees Otto, like, spot him with a severed head. But like, Casey sees him and then runs away. And he has no reason to think that anyone saw him, aside from the Nazi. If it, like, it makes sense. If it's like, oh, Casey's run away and he goes and into the room and like, he's like, Casey's not here. But like, I don't know if she's just playing dumb or something like that. I'm gonna eliminate all the. All the witnesses, because that's already set up. But like, they. They're not witnesses at this point.
01:33:29
Sam
Yeah.
01:33:30
Case
And.
01:33:30
Sam
And also Otto basically called him his lord. And so, like, I don't. And he works for him. I don't understand why he was just like, oh, I gotta kill that guy. I feel like Otto would be like, sir, you've done it again. What are we going to do?
01:33:47
Sean
You laugh track. Everybody shrugs, looks directly at a camera.
01:33:51
Sam
But let's say I let everything play out the way that it did. I really don't want to leave Otto as a Nazi person, though, because it. Yeah, I get it. Stabbing a Nazi panic. Yeah, I get it. It. Stat. Stat. Stabbing a Nazi. You know, cathartic.
01:34:09
Sean
But sure, we've all thought about it.
01:34:13
Sam
I just, you know, punch a Nazi, stab a Nazi, fine. But I just felt like it was very jarring for me to see that uniform when there wasn't like a historical reason to see the uniform. Like, I was just like, what the. Why? What the. Like, and I don't care that there was like, hints that maybe he could have been like, it could have easily. He could have been like, I mean, I guess, yeah, we're in the middle of the Cold War. He could have been Russian. Like, that would have been less uncomfortable.
01:34:40
Sean
Joseph Stalin would have been actually a.
01:34:42
Sam
Nicer, you know, like, you know, make him a Soviet spy. Like, let's. Let's have this be like red scare panic instead. Like, let's have. Maybe Z Man is communist. Maybe that's why he's getting all the capitalists high all the time, so they can't be productive.
01:35:01
Sean
I'm with that, actually.
01:35:04
Sam
It's. It's fun. And. And so, you know, strike that. And, you know, Casey can still be dumb. She can still Call her friends. They can still be the Scooby gang. I still think it's dumb, but how many times have people done. Done terrible, dumb things? Here's the thing. When they get there, they manage to save Casey. But what's his name? The guy I hate? Yes, him. I've purposely forgotten his name because I hate him so much. Harris gives his life for Casey and Casey gets to live. Even though I hate redemption arcs, but honestly, I want him to die.
01:35:41
Case
It is a miracle he's able to stand just in time to catch the bullet.
01:35:45
Sean
To catch the bullet. That would honestly be one of the funniest moments. He's like, I can walk. And the bullet just goes right through him.
01:35:53
Sam
It would have been amazing. And then they subdue Z man and like the end of the movie are the three girls hugging each other, like, just being BFFs like they always were and picking up their instruments and making music and none of that preachy at the end that makes no sense. And goes back on everything and no one getting married because honestly, that's just a wet blanket. Like, I was just like. Like I was like. So basically what it, like, is this like a one of those, like, weird conservative fever dreams? Like, and they all had sex and now they're condemned and now we're all going to get married. See, guys, being in heterosexual relationships is so much better than being gay or having free love. You're welcome.
01:36:44
Case
Well, and we didn't talk about this,.
01:36:46
Sean
But thank God we're repressed, Mother.
01:36:47
Case
We didn't talk about this thing. But like, Harris is accused at one point of being gay and like, takes it really harshly. Like that sort of is why he tries to commit suicide. Or it's like. Or rather it's why he gets high and rapes Casey. And then Harris is trash. Let's be clear. But. But there is sort of a. An element at the very end of him trying to suppress it.
01:37:07
Sean
I'm getting you both T shirts. I'm having the mate. They're just gonna say,.
01:37:13
Sam
But. But I, I have to say that what I would really love is to. So the three girls, they're together at the end and they make the final song and we get to hear one more kick ass song from the ladies. And that's what plays us out.
01:37:27
Case
Yeah. Under new management, Aunt Susan can be their new manager or like the new money for it. So like, she could be funding their, like their newest album.
01:37:36
Sam
Absolutely. And then it's a feminist from the Ashes movie defeating communism and killing like.
01:37:47
Case
They write this like really awesome, some like ballad requiem kind of thing for the end of the movie to like mourn the. Mourn the dead and the people and whatnot. But they together.
01:37:57
Sean
But they don't mourn Harris.
01:37:59
Sam
I mean, they probably mourn Harris because they're lame. But that's not the point.
01:38:07
Sean
What I love is after this big musical, redemptive, like ballad number, you still just see Harris corpse in the driveway, like collecting flies. It's just his corpse in the wheelchair is just slowly rolling backwards down Laurel Canyon door while a slide whistle's going.
01:38:30
Case
Or like a coyote is tugging it along on the wheelchair.
01:38:36
Sean
Like a coyote's got his ankle.
01:38:39
Sam
He was the worst, but he did give his life.
01:38:42
Case
Now he feeds doggos.
01:38:45
Sean
He was the worst, but the coyotes found him delicious in the end.
01:38:52
Sam
Hashtag blessed.
01:38:54
Sean
I just love the idea that the now 80 year old actor who played Harris is watching it. It's like listening to this podcast. Like a single tear is going down his cheek. I did my best.
01:39:07
Sam
I will say that the actor himself was not the problem.
01:39:11
Sean
Oh, no.
01:39:12
Sam
I mean, it's just the role. So if you are listening to this, you did a good job.
01:39:16
Sean
You're a victim. You're a victim of Roger Ebert's script.
01:39:22
Sam
You're a victim of Harris the character. Like many people in this movie, including Harris himself.
01:39:29
Sean
Oh, my God, yes. Why? Why? I know Harris. I just wish it had ended with like Harris and Porter being tied together to a railroad track and just Z Man going by on. What do you call those cars where the two men.
01:39:46
Case
Oh, yeah.
01:39:50
Sean
It'd just be like Z Man and like, I don't know, maybe Pam Grier. Why not? She was an extra.
01:39:58
Sam
All right, Sean, your turn.
01:39:59
Sean
I gotta say, I like a lot of the changes. There's, there's. If I'm allowed to do.
01:40:04
Case
Yeah, yeah, no, it's a. It's a conversation.
01:40:06
Sean
Yeah, I would love to do this entirely as a sock puppet musical.
01:40:13
Sam
Yes.
01:40:13
Sean
Don't change a thing. We don't change a thing. We actually use the soundtrack of the actors voices, but you shoot it in 35 millimeter, lovingly, like it's a real film, but everything is replaced by sock puppets. You even green screen the actual shots of the sets and you put the sock puppets in front of it. Even the sex scenes are done by sock puppet.
01:40:37
Case
Do you have like golf balls, like under the sock puppet to emulate everything except for tennis balls for Casey.
01:40:47
Sean
And you make it look as fake as possible. So that way like, the gratuitous sex is somehow cute, you know, I mean, I will say you got. You guys got me thinking about the redoing the ending, though. You know, if you were to do it as a full blown musical, I would like to change the ending. I would like to take out the whole Nazi thing. I'm with you there. And I would like to. Maybe not. Maybe he does kill Lance, but maybe not decapitates Lance. But I actually loved the idea that Z Man would be tackled by the girls and they would foil him and there still would be that big redemptive musical arc at the end. But I also love that you have, like, that sort of addendum at the end where, you know, what happened to Z Man?
01:41:32
Sean
And you have Z Man directing a huge musical in prison.
01:41:37
Sam
Oh, that'd be amazing.
01:41:38
Sean
You know, he'd be like, all right, boys, take it from the top. You know, and then suddenly just goes right into, like, Jermaine Jackson's Tonight's Gonna Be Dynamite, you know, and he's still producing amazing music from inside Rikers island or something like, you know, because that gives you room for a sequel. Because I think everyone is bummed out that Z Man dies at the end and then he goes off the rails. I mean, who watches that movie and like, yeah, fuck Z. No one. Like, nobody.
01:42:07
Case
No one.
01:42:08
Sean
Yeah, no one. He's the best.
01:42:10
Sam
You know, you're right. Hashtag, where's the man's redemption arc?
01:42:13
Sean
Exactly. Not even just let him live. You know, it's like. It's like. It's like killing Willem Dafoe at the. At the end of Spider Man. It's like, why are you going to get rid of the most interesting character and the interesting actor in there? Come on, man. That's just bad business.
01:42:29
Case
Especially without setting up, like, a precedent. Like, if this is just one weirdly bad trip, like, yeah, it's bad. Like, I. I'm not going to pretend it's not bad.
01:42:38
Sean
We're not going to say that decapitating Lance Rock isn't right.
01:42:42
Case
It's not a sane move, but it is a really bad trip. And, like, it is the kind of thing where, like, I could see at least, like, having an interesting life in prison, you know?
01:42:52
Sean
Oh, my God. He would rule that thing. He would. He would be. He would be the kingpin, the musical kingpin of prison. There's your next move movie. There's your. There's your Valley of the Rikers, you know, like, beyond the Valley of the Rikers. That'd Be amazing.
01:43:09
Case
Locked up in the Valley of the Dolls.
01:43:12
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, man, I would watch that. God damn it. Why couldn't we.
01:43:17
Sam
Yeah.
01:43:17
Case
We just make it like a Planet of the Apes style franchise and get increasingly complicated names, like, as it gets longer and longer.
01:43:22
Sean
Oh, also, the other. The other change that I would want to make is that I would want Harris to. To be played by character actor James Harris, who, some of you might remember, he played Dr. Smith on the Lost in Space TV show the Pain of it All. Yes.
01:43:41
Case
Okay.
01:43:41
Sean
You can't leave me for Porterhole. Oh, no, no, no. You see, and Z Man gets increasingly jealous of, like, who can mince better? You know? I would love that. I would also love that if I had to. If I had to recap. Recast. Yeah. Porter hall, maybe I'd recast as, like, maybe Peter Laurie or, like, someone, like, more lecherous and less like Higgins from Magnum P.I. You know, it's. I don't know.
01:44:09
Case
I think it's mostly the scriff for Porter Hall. Like, it's just so.
01:44:12
Sam
Yeah.
01:44:13
Case
So in your face. And then, like, the. The time compression of this all. Like, he knows everyone's last names and everything about them, like, when he first walks over to talk to them at every point. So there's never any scene of sort of, like, dissecting it or trying to, like, root him out. The whole, like, oh, are they a hippie trying to steal all your money? Like, is just an underwritten character that is, like, pushed to do, like, the crazy scenes. Like, there's, like, this embezzling subplot that they never touch. Like, they never do anything.
01:44:40
Sean
Oh, yeah, they never really. They never really.
01:44:42
Sam
They.
01:44:42
Sean
Yeah, pull a. They pull. They pull a. A Tommy Wiseau move where, like, they just. They introduce something and then they just leave.
01:44:52
Sam
That's because so much is happening. That's, you know, just so much is happening.
01:44:56
Case
Sean, do you want to take a swing?
01:44:57
Sean
That was my swing, baby. The sock puppet version. And also having the ending, having Z Man live and it ends with Z Man having his own musical number at the end.
01:45:07
Case
Yeah, I love that idea right there. Like, Z Man, in whatever capacity, just being alive and, like, continuing to be, like, a promoter of the arts, like,.
01:45:19
Sean
Rise up, my breath, brethren, beyond your chains, and make the musical. Like, he's still talking in couples, even though he's in, like, a stripy jersey, you know, which he's also cut up into, like, a really fashionable looking sash.
01:45:32
Sam
Yeah. You know, for your. For your sock puppet idea. I did see a years Ago, I saw a production of Titus Andrenicus and it was puppets and it was cut down a bit, so it wasn't like the full four hours. But whenever they did the blood, they did silly string, like, you know, like so, like, like. So basically we just spray everywhere. They'd be like, it was great.
01:45:56
Sean
Oh, my God, it was amazing. Beautiful. Well, that's, you know, I gotta say, I borrowed from one of my own ideas the cartoonist buddy of mine a couple of years ago, he and I really wanted to do. For the. For the New York Fringe Festival, we wanted to do a sock puck musical version of the film Scarface. And now, because we never got to do it, I just wanna do a sock puppet version of every movie I've ever loved. Actually, you know, it's funny if you guys go. If you look on YouTube, me and a bunch of my old cronies from Celebrity Deathmatch put together a couple of Muppet green screen movies that we did. It's called Cult Comedy Picture show and basically it's Muppets in front of green screens. But the whole premise is what if famous directors directed movies they never directed?
01:46:50
Sean
Like, we have Woody Allen's the Dark Knight Schlepps. We have. We have Martin Scorsese's Star wars, you know, Spike Lee's he got Jaws. What are some of the other ones? Oh, yeah, and Werner Herzog's the Spider man, who was amazing. And they're all on YouTube, man. You can check them out. But we could not get someone to purchase it to go to series. But we made four episodes and released it into the wild of YouTube in 2012. You might get a chance.
01:47:24
Case
Oh, my God. I'm definitely checking that out after this. Let me throw out mine. So I have some structural things that are just sort of like table stakes just to clean up this movie, which is. I love all the smash cuts between scenes inside scenes. A lot of the rapid cuts are disorienting.
01:47:42
Sean
Editing is amazing.
01:47:43
Case
Like, there's. There's these moments where there'll be dialogue bits going on and no one could get a full sentence out before you've already cut to a reaction shot. And it's. It really throws off the rhythm of some of the lines. And I wouldn't mind a little bit of just an editorial pass, like have a couple shots be a little bit longer. I'm not saying remove it for all the spots, like the beat poetry bit, like, where it's like showing off element la. Great. I love those bits. The. Again, these smash Cuts between sequences are amazing. Like when the. The taxi driver flips it and it goes to a record being pressed when it's, you know, the scream before the gun and it cuts to the singing. There's a bunch of shots like that are amazing.
01:48:19
Case
But like I said, some of the actual dialogue I just like it's. It's too frenetic. Like it's hard to really track the scene. And it wouldn't be bad just to like kind of slow those bits down. And then most of this is the stuff with the Porter hall character and that whole subplot. But like a little bit more explanation of. Of like the passage of time. Because like the first time they. When they first arrive at Z Man's party and it's jumping around from everyone. Those are great because that's like here's one line of this conversation. And then pairs are moved around and so forth and you get. You're just getting all these like weird snippets of conversations.
01:48:48
Sean
And the fact that you have the strawberry alarm clock in the background underneath these snippets, it's awesome.
01:48:53
Case
But then there's like. It doesn't really ever stop that point. And I need. I feel like there needs to be some spots where we allow for better understanding of the passage of time. Because there are some locations where it's been like, it's been a few weeks or like, oh, you've been dating for a while and I, I feel like a couple more lines like that and then you know it. To counterbalance the fact that it's a little less crazy. Do the X rated cut. Like throw in all the tits, like go for it. Because you know what, like they got the X rated anyway. They might as well at this point. Yeah, it. That's like the table stakes of it all. I feel like you can make it more coherent and also more titillating.
01:49:28
Case
And this would all be good for why people would watched this movie more then the finale. The finale is the part that's like what the going on here. And so I see it going one of two ways. One, we keep Zman as the ultimate villain, in which Case Zen Zman needs to be toxic more earlier in the movie. Like there's the implication of it. Like Sam, what you were talking about, like there's spots where Zman seems possessive of them and like there's shots of them like in the recording studio, like where that's kind of going on. And Zman actually just like kind of comes off as being like very pro. Even though Harris, like, looks at him suspiciously and I. I feel like, have some moments where, like, Z Man really feels like he's pushing Harris out.
01:50:04
Case
Like, where he's like, really trying to muscle in and like, control the band a bit more. And like, in that scenario, you can start to justify Z Man flipping out at the end if it feels like he's not getting his way ultimately. Like, if he seems to be in complete control and it keeps on kind of slipping. That's one way to do it.
01:50:20
Sean
You.
01:50:21
Case
You set up at least the Z Man is not just a cool guy who has drugs and like, gives people jobs, like, up until the end of the movie. Movie. So you at least have like, some reason to be like, oh, I. Okay, I can see that. I. I guess I see him being kind of like a control freak and like, all that. Or Harris. And that the miracle of Harris being able to walk is actually that he learned, like, he actually was able to walk and he's behind them all dying. And either he slips a shitload of extra drugs and causes he man to go crazy, or Harris is actually like, the one secretly murdering everyone. And like, because the open. Like, you can even keep the opening sequence and have it be a misdirect because Harris, like, the.
01:50:58
Case
The Harris looks enough like Zman from the. From the long shot that we get of the. In the opening credits of like, a person in a King Arthur type outfit running around with a sword. Like, you could mistake it if, like, and have it be a bait and switch. So you think Zman's gone crazy and. No. Oh, no, it actually is Harris. What? You can walk? Yeah. A very slim percentage of people spontaneously regain the use of their legs.
01:51:20
Sean
And also I can walk because I'm a werewolf. But, like, the Nietzsche turns into a werewolf and murders him.
01:51:26
Sam
Or maybe you cut the whole scene where he jumps all together, but you have him fake something else, like from a smaller place and he fakes an injury and then he turns out to go and kill everyone.
01:51:38
Case
But. But regardless, have Harris be this toxic fanboy. Like, so mad that he's been ousted from the group of his own. Like, failure to act like he. He is not a good band manager. He doesn't do anything for the band and he feels so jealous and possessive. A thing that we establish in the movie. Like, he has multiple scenes of him being toxic outside of anything to do with Ashley St. Ives. Like that weird B plot right there. Side note, Ashley St. Ives is played by the director's wife. Just throwing that one out there. Also, the only character Whose boobs we don't see, despite being the porn star that they talk about all the carnality, like, wow, she's always in a bikini.
01:52:14
Sean
Did not realize that.
01:52:15
Case
And I'm assuming that there's no footage like that, so I'm not like. But. But my point is just that, like, Harris is a shitbag. Harris, like, is super toxic to them. The whole time he tries to dissuade them from going to la, he seems, like, pissed off the entire time they're singing on the ride to la and I don't know how far they're driving, so it could be a lot. I get that, like, he may not have really enjoyed them singing nonstop the whole road trip in his face. His face does not look.
01:52:40
Sean
With no air conditioning, driving down Route 66. Yeah, but you're starting to make me stupid.
01:52:46
Case
Have him just be pissed off about this whole situation. Have his manhood be thrown, threatened, have. And be like, well, like, you know, I mean, if we. I don't know if I would want to keep the abortion subplot. But, like, it is kind of the Valley of the Doll, so, like, it's probably going to be there somewhere. So you might as well, like, say, like, she killed my baby and I'm a toxic man and I'm good, You know, like, have him, but, like, paint him as the villain, like, in that scenario.
01:53:09
Sam
I mean, also, you can just, like, totally have him try to. And I'm sorry to.
01:53:14
Case
No, no, by all means. Come on.
01:53:15
Sam
You can totally have him. Like, actually kind of maybe even once try to kind of weasel his way to ingratiate himself to Z Man. Because he knows that Z man is just like. And everybody else is kind of playing these, like, you know, like, psychological sexual games. And he thinks, like, maybe he could get in it and have Z Man.
01:53:37
Sean
Oh, yeah. He actually tries to talk to him. He tries to, like, entice Z Man with a lame couplet.
01:53:43
Sam
Yeah, yeah. Like, like. Or like. And it just ends up being a dad joke. And, like, Z means, like, no.
01:53:49
Sean
Yeah.
01:53:51
Sam
No, no. And just walks away. Just, like, you know, because, like, I mean, honestly, like, I feel like if, like, Z Man, like, seriously rejected you, like, in that tone of voice, which is his basic tone of voice, it would feel really bad. So I just. I think that could, like, feed into that, right? So he's been, like, kind of ousted from being the manager, and then the guy who became the manager, he couldn't even ingratiate himself to become, like, that guy's assistant or Even, like, screwed by that guy. And then the porn lady told him to find a boy, but he can't find a boy because even Z Man doesn't want him. And that's great.
01:54:32
Sean
Yeah, he gives him like, a really bad dig at that. Like, I wouldn't fuck you with Bea Author's dick and Estelle Getty. Like, he just finally, Harris is like,.
01:54:42
Case
Yeah, and that's better set up by the text. Like him having licked the. The flip out at the party where he attacks Lance. Like, these all support it better. Like, when I saw him up in the rafters, I thought he was gonna, like, cut a light and, like, maybe drop it one of the girls. So maybe like, he. It. You set it up like he's about to.
01:54:58
Sean
Certainly the funnier.
01:55:00
Case
Well, he set it up like he's about to. And then they start playing the song and he, like, pulls back and then you have another, like, fight between him and one of the characters. And that pushes him, like, fully over the edge, you know? And, like, we actually get to this point because, like, again, he's a really toxic fucking boy the whole movie already. So it's either we make Zman more toxic to support the fact that we had this whole, like, weird twist at the end of Z Man having a homicidal rage, or we have someone, the character who's already established as being toxic and actually likely to do something which Porter Hall, I don't feel would going with that idea.
01:55:33
Sean
Cage. What if Harris does turn out to be the villain and does. Does the. Does the killing spree thing. But maybe it's Zman who redeems himself by saving them from Harris.
01:55:44
Case
Yeah, like, again, I like Zman. I think Zman having a heroic turn here is fine.
01:55:50
Sam
I. I think everyone here is just like, yeah, Zman is fine. Like, we should go rework this entire movie.
01:55:56
Case
Murders multiple people and, like, kind of molest someone. Like. And we're still all more on Zman's team than Harris's. Yeah, in the movie we got on the rear.
01:56:10
Sam
And I want to stress again, this is because in the first half of the film, right up until the point that he has his private party, he's a pretty cool dude. Like, he, like. Like, honestly, like, he even shows respect to Harris after he's a. And jumps from the rafter to selfishly murder him, kill himself on national TV and kill people's joy. Because, like, honestly, like, your friends are there performing and you're like, I don't care. I'm going to make this about me. And like, Harris, I think partially seeing the, like, bad PR that it is because he is a PR genius is like. But also because he's like, that's not cool to show a possibly dead body on screen. He's like, cut. And like, the late night guy's like, no, keep it on, Keep it focused on that.
01:57:04
Sam
Which is, like, terrible and awful.
01:57:06
Case
Yeah, that scene I felt we needed to cut to what the feed was like, we needed the black and white of the camera.
01:57:12
Sean
When Harris jumps from the scaffolding and he hits the floor. I just think it would be really funny if you just see Z Man look into the frame. Like, you don't see what's happened to Harris when he hits the floor. You just hear the girl scream and everybody moves away. And Z man just looks into the frame, sees Harris's dead body, looks to the camera, and it's like, Bud Dwyer did it better. He's not even original. In death, we just completely move on from.
01:57:46
Sam
Kelly totally moved that body. I'm sorry, Case. I, I, I know that you're, you're in the middle of your pitch, but, like, I just no one do what Kelly did. If someone falls in front of you and there's a possible back injury, do not touch that person and flip them over and cradle their head, rocking it back and forth.
01:58:08
Case
Well, and Baxter does say, like, stop moving the body.
01:58:12
Sam
Yeah, yeah.
01:58:14
Sean
I love the idea. What if when he falls from that, from the light, you don't even see his body. You just see, like, a Kool Aid man type outline of his body has gone straight through the floor. There's just an imprint of Harris's body shape in the floor. And you just hear him falling, falling.
01:58:35
Sam
He's basically Wile E. Coyote now. Thanks. Yeah.
01:58:39
Case
Because basically, fuck this guy. Like, you know, I want cartoonish levels of violence to occur to this character who is just fucking terrible. So either, like I said, either we make the, we make the character who turns out to be the villain at the end actually have supporting evidence throughout the movie to allow them to be a villain. Or the character who has the supporting evidence to be the villain, let them.
01:59:01
Sean
Be the villain would be way better. I love the idea that he falls through the floor. You just see the imprint. And then it cuts to these two 60s character actors like Jonathan Winters and, like, you know, Don Rickles. They're like, I wonder what he wants us to do with this vat of acid. Goes Harris. And scene.
01:59:23
Case
And that's the end of the movie. And then everyone Else is just, like, hanging out at the party, being like, remember Harris? Yeah. And then they all just like, light up a J in his honor and that's it.
01:59:34
Sam
And nothing else happens. And Zman lives a happy life. And so does Casey. She gets to live. She got, she went through enough. Damn it.
01:59:45
Sean
No, man. Like, that was like, you know, you make sure wonder like, Ebert, do you hate, like, women? Like, what is your deal?
01:59:52
Sam
Honestly? Honestly. Poor Casey.
01:59:56
Case
But I will say I'm so happy I saw this movie. I do need to be very clear about that. Like, I'm probably gonna buy it because I did it as a rental on Amazon. Apparently there's a Blu Ray of this and Valley of the Dolls. I just gotta think, like, well,.
02:00:13
Sean
I know what's going in my stocking this year. Yeah.
02:00:17
Case
Like, Jacqueline Susan must be rolling in her grave at this.
02:00:21
Sean
Like, she must be spinning like a Maytag.
02:00:24
Case
I wanted a serious conversation about the dangers of immorality.
02:00:29
Sean
Instead, I got Z Man and ass.
02:00:32
Case
It's a weird movie. Like, it's not a movie I would watch regularly, but it is a movie that I'm like, I am so glad I saw this. It is so weird. Weird. It's the music. Like I said, there's some real pops. Yeah, like that. I, I, I hadn't seen it before we started talking about it, and I was really weirded out. And a lot of my notes are, what the is this? But I'm real glad I saw it. Sam, how about you?
02:00:55
Sam
Yeah, I, I am glad I saw it. I, I def. It took me some time to process it. And it is a wild ride. And so if anyone, after hearing this or if anyone saw the, like, what were watching and then ran to go rent this and watch it beforehand, I hope you enjoyed our analysis. That could not stand in a straight line because I'm not even sure I know up from down after seeing this movie, but it was wild. And I think that you do see the influence on other movies that came after it. Like, you can't, you can see that. You can see, you know, kind of the things. And it's also like a time capsule. Like, this movie is, like, really oddly right on the mark of late 60s, early 70s.
02:01:47
Sam
Like, it is, even with the clunky writing and the awkward dialogue, it just, it still speaks to that time. And I, and I will say that the costumes are great. And the music is phenomenal. And the music will get you through. Even, even when the music doesn't make sense when it's comically misplaced. Like, it is a. It is like a comic theme that you would hear in Scooby Doo. And there are people being shot. Like, literally, oh, beheading happens.
02:02:19
Case
And then they play the MGM theme or. No, the 20th Century Fox theme.
02:02:23
Sam
Yeah. Yeah. It's. It's. It's so batshit bananas. And I do think that it is an experience. I would go into it knowing, especially now that you've listened to it, that there are things that, like, from a modern perspective are gonna make you go, oh, God, no. But I think, like, for the most part, it's such a wild ride that you kind of get through it all because you might just be in shock for the rest of the actual things that are happening. So, like, it's only afterwards when you're kind of going through it and. And you're like, yeah, this movie, there's so many boobs. But it's really preachy against women. Like. Like, you know, like, the first half feels like it's okay. And it's like, yeah, you guys. You guys, free love. Free love. It's cool. And then by the end, they're like.
02:03:16
Sam
And that is why they died.
02:03:18
Sean
Hi, kids. I'm Dwight Eisenhower.
02:03:22
Sam
This is the problem. Problem with drugs, sex and rock and roll.
02:03:26
Sean
When you leave theater, there will be military men here to shave all that long hair off.
02:03:31
Sam
Yeah, I actually thought. I was, like, so fooled because, like, at the end of the movie, there's, like. You know, like, the last scene, and there's, like, an old. You know, there's like, an older judge, and he's. It's clearly a judge. And he's sitting there, he's like, wow, this is the first time that three.
02:03:49
Case
Three.
02:03:49
Sam
Three. Three people are getting married in my court. And I thought he was gonna talk about murder because three people kind of died, you know, like, that were murdered by Z Man. But no. No, that wasn't it. And I was just, like, no closure. And they never, like, say sad things about Casey. It's just Harris and fucking Kelly walking through a field, like, where's the justice for Casey? Casey, She's. She. You know what? That's. That's. That's the biggest tragedy. I know we talked a lot about Z Man, but, like, out of all of the characters in this film, she was the least out of everyone. And she did not deserve to die. Her and Aunt Susan. Although Aunt Susan did live, but. But, like, she really did not have it come in. And. And I'm. You Know, I'm still sad for her.
02:04:40
Sam
As far as I know there were was no funeral for her.
02:04:43
Case
Just, just coyotes.
02:04:46
Sean
They gave her a Viking funeral. They just put her on a raft and filled it with gasoline and pushed it out into the San Fernando River.
02:04:53
Sam
Yeah, just. Just Kelly and Harris going hiking. Oh my.
02:04:59
Case
So Sean, thank you for bringing this movie. Clearly it affected us.
02:05:03
Sam
At the very least it gave us feelings if nothing else. We, we have feelings.
02:05:10
Sean
Well then, well then it was all worth the journey, I suppose.
02:05:13
Sam
You know, that's the mark of art, right?
02:05:15
Sean
And we all love the music. Come on.
02:05:17
Case
Yeah, we love it. It was great. Like again I so glad I watched this movie.
02:05:24
Sean
I'm so glad I can introduce it to you. Listen, if there's one thing I, I want. If there's one. If there's one Book of Mormon that I want to bring into the world, it is definitely this film. I saw it as a 19 year old film student and I remember so clearly because it was like the perfect storm. I watched it with like a bunch. While smoking a lot of grass with like a bunch of other film students and like two of like my bitchiest, queeniest acting buddies who of course were like the Peanuts Gallery throughout the film which made. I would highly recommend this with you know, to watch this film with. Very funny, very bitchy. Like, like if you have like a gay friend who is incredibly funny take watch this movie with him and a bunch of marijuana.
02:06:14
Sean
You will laugh harder than you've ever laughed in your entire.
02:06:16
Case
We have many on this network. It's great.
02:06:19
Sean
I mean that is definitely the way to go with this film because I. Oh my God. I still remember like the first time I saw that. I remember just. I remember having to like leave the room and have a glass of water because I was afraid that if I laughed any harder I was going to have aneurysm. I'm so glad you guys liked it or enjoyed.
02:06:41
Sam
Was a ride.
02:06:43
Case
Sean, since that time of being a 19 year old film student you've done a lot of stuff tell the listeners about you where they can find you. I know you've got some very cool projects going on right now.
02:06:53
Sean
Now. Oh yeah. I, I've got a couple of movies that I've. That I've written and directed or written or directed on Amazon right now. One is a 911 drama called Greenpoint Tavern that's sort of about Brooklyn and the months after September 11th. And then there's a comedy called Every Other Sunday That's a little more like sort of like a bunch of 40 something college friends who get together every Sunday to get drunk, play a board game and eat dinner together. And you sort of see how their lives and their romantic lives and their career lives sort of progress from 20 to 40. And then I have a new movie coming out this fall on Amazon about COVID 19 called the laws of Motion and that we just locked picture on the edit like about a week.
02:07:50
Sean
So I'm thinking we're going to take it over the summer and the early fall. We're going to take it on the festival run and then that's going to. It most likely is going to be coming out late September, early October. So that's. That's that. I'm looking forward to that. And if you're in New York. Yeah. I'm doing this off Broadway show called the Girls who Walked on Glass. It's written and produced by Gordon Farrell, who had this huge Broadway hit a couple of years ago called Lifespan of a Fact Act. It's an incredible play. It's a really good cast. It's in this really cool theater that kind of reminds me of Andy Warhol's the Factory over in Union Square.
02:08:26
Sean
And the cool thing about this play is that you watch it kind of like you would watch a haunted house or a carnival where the audience gets divided into groups of five depending on what color your ticket is. And you actually go from set piece to set piece around theater. Theater to watch each scene in the play, which is kind of neat. It's kind of like sleep no more or something like that. And.
02:08:50
Case
Yeah.
02:08:50
Sean
And otherwise you can just see me yucking it up at comedy clubs from New York to Philly to Cleveland to LA to wherever they're. Wherever laughter is needed. Yeah. Was that a good plug?
02:09:03
Case
No, that's perfect.
02:09:05
Sam
Yeah, it's perfect.
02:09:07
Sean
No, it's. You can check out my stuff on Geezer lynch on Instagram or Sean lynch comic at Twitter or Sean lynch at Facebook or I think Sean lynch on YouTube. They have a bunch of my puppet stuff and some of my old celebrity deathmatch stuff.
02:09:29
Sam
And.
02:09:31
Sean
My channel on YouTube is mostly my animation stuff and my puppet stuff. And you know, you can see where. Why I want to do a sock puppet version of this movie.
02:09:41
Case
Well, I think we can see the through line of genius sprouting out from all this.
02:09:46
Sean
Yeah, there's another word for it, but that was kind of you to use that word.
02:09:50
Case
Well, sock puppet beyond the Valley of the Dolls Sounds amazing. So right Wouldn't it be fun? So listeners should go check you out on all of the those possible modes, particularly check out your movies on Amazon because that will be a little bit more timeless. This episode's probably going to drop after the run on your show, so small bummer on that one. Just we bank a lot of these ahead, but you've got tons of stuff that is evergreen, so definitely fans. Check that out. Look him up on Amazon, look up his social media links. That's. Yeah, just support Sean because Sean is a friend of the show and like, it's so great to chat with you because, like, I miss having a regular appointment just to like hang out and shoot the shit for, you know, 10 hours a night.
02:10:40
Sean
You forget how like how much fun we used to have. Like, it's so funny the things you take for granted. You know, it's like 10, like 10 years ago, 12 years ago, you know, it was like I knew I would see you every week, so I didn't realize like how long it would be in between times we'd get to have some. This is like, this is great.
02:10:58
Case
But thank you for coming on the show, man.
02:11:00
Sean
Oh, thanks for having me, pal. This is awesome. I love your show.
02:11:05
Case
Well, we've got a ton of great backlog. You can find all that over@ certainpov.com where you can also find a link to our Discord server. We are not doing this call on Discord right now, but if you want to just come and interact with us, that's a great place to do it. You can also find tons of other great shows like Fun and Games with Matt and Jeff, which is a wonderful video game announcement analysis show. It's not a review show so much as a discussion of video game culture. And then they have a the series side quest that is on the same channel where people just talk about a video game that they have really passionate thoughts about. So check that out. It's. It's a wonderful time. But then you can come back here for our next episode.
02:11:42
Case
Sam, what do we have on deck?
02:11:44
Sam
Well, next time on Another Pass, we'll be doing Highlander 2 the Quickening. But until then, if you enjoy, pass it on.
02:11:58
Case
Thanks for listening to Certain Point of View's Another Pass podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on itunes. Just go to certainpov.com.
02:12:11
Sam
Another pass is a certain POV production. Are hosts are Sam Alice and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.
02:12:27
Case
We try to shoot for an hour, and we typically are closer to two.
02:12:32
Sean
That's good, though. That means. That means you're having fun, man.
02:12:35
Sam
I feel like if Sean suggested this movie, he's really prepared to talk about.
02:12:40
Sean
Anything to the point of annoyance. Yes. I have gotten into conversations on airplanes with strangers about this movie, and I realized it's not the movie that's making them uncomfortable, is how excited this grown man is getting over this movie.
02:13:01
Case
Let me tell you about this titty flick from 1970.
02:13:03
Sean
Oh, my God. It was Russ Meyer's opus. His opus.
02:13:11
Case
You can't take a thing Roger Ebert says. Seriously. Look at Valley of the Dolphin.
02:13:14
Sean
Oh, my God. And I'll get into, like, the weirdness. I'll be like, you know the guy who played Lance Rock did a cameo in Electro Woman and Diner Girl only five years later for Sid Marty Croft? And they're like, who is this guy and why is his life so strange that he this movie, like, non stop. Yeah. I mean, there's friends of mine that will randomly call each other, and when the other person picks up the line, we'll just burst into one of the songs from the soundtrack. One of my friends, he's the rare bird that is a theater producer in Los Angeles, which is literally like owning a tanning bed in Alaska. But I'll call him and he'll pick up the phone and I'll be like, come see the. The flower people. And he'll. He'll know exactly where to pick it up.
02:14:14
Case
Cpov certainpov.com.