Another Pass at Magnolia

This week on Another Pass, Sam and Case are joined by Erin Callahan to dig into Paul Thomas Anderson’s sprawling emotional epic, Magnolia. We talk about intersecting lives, the weight of coincidence, and whether a few small edits could make this frog-filled fever dream even more powerful.

#AnotherPass #Magnolia #PTAnderson #MoviePodcast #FilmDiscussion

Another Pass Full Episode

Originally aired: November 14, 2025 

Music by Vin Macri and Matt Brogan

Podcast Edited by Sophia Ricciardi

Certain Point Of View is a podcast network brining you all sorts of nerdy goodness! From Star Wars role playing, to Disney day dreaming, to video game love, we've got the show for you! Learn more on our website: https://www.certainpov.com

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Outline

• Introduction to Podcast and Guests (00:00 - 02:47)

• Introduction of podcast hosts Case Aiken and Sam Alicea alongside guest Erin Callahan, comedian and performer based in LA.

• Overview of the podcast's goal of analyzing fascinating but flawed movies and discussing 'Magnolia' by Paul Thomas Anderson.

• Film Reception and Initial Impressions (02:47 - 06:41)

• Discussion on the film’s commercial performance (barely recouped budget).

• Observations on how the interconnected plotlines initially seem scattered but progressively reveal ties.

• Personal Reactions and Character Complexity (06:41 - 09:43)

• Sam expresses strong dislike for the film, citing an emotional aversion to nearly all characters except the frogs.

• Recognition of standout performances by William H. Macy and Philip Seymour Hoffman despite overall dislike.

• Overview of Film Narrative and Themes (09:43 - 19:46)

• Aaron explains the ensemble format, interconnected stories set in San Fernando Valley culminating in a biblical-style frog plague.

• Major theme identified: dysfunctional relationships between parents and children.

• Cops and Authority Portrayal (19:46 - 29:25)

• John C. Reilly’s character depicted as a well-meaning but incompetent cop, demonstrating systemic failures in law enforcement.

• The film’s critical stance towards police, contrasting with mainstream media depictions at the time.

• Character Analysis: Donnie and Stanley (29:25 - 39:23)

• William H. Macy’s character as a former quiz boy who symbolizes a lost potential and relatability to gifted child experience.

• Debate on whether his storyline is essential or expendable in a trimmed-down version of the film.

• Entertainment Moguls and Their Families (39:23 - 49:49)

• Comparison of Earl Partridge and Jimmy Gator as similar figures of industry power who have harmed their children and spouses.

• Tom Cruise’s Frank T.J. Mackey characterized as a 'manosphere' guru shaped by family trauma.

• Claudia and Themes of Control and Addiction (49:49 - 59:40)

• Claudia viewed as a victim of parental control, drug addiction, and neglect juxtaposed with her father’s manipulative behavior.

• Biblical allusion of plague of frogs as symbolic of parental failure to 'let their children go.'

• Frank T.J. Mackey and Masculine Performance (59:41 - 01:09:41)

• Spotlight on Tom Cruise’s versatile and immersive performance as Frank T.J. Mackey, exploring the emotional façade and trauma underlying his character.

• Mention of Cruise’s Oscar nomination for the role and the improvisation he brought to the emotional father-son scenes.

• Julianne Moore’s Character and Themes of Caregiving and Betrayal (01:09:41 - 01:20:56)

• Detailed discussion of Linda Partridge showing vulnerability, guilt, and emotional complexity amid caregiving for a dying Earl Partridge.

• Exploration of betrayal themes and intimate family dynamics.

• Film Length and Narrative Structure Discussion (01:20:56 - 01:32:27)

• Consensus on the film’s excessive length complicating viewer engagement.

• Suggestions to streamline or reimagine — either cut characters and subplots or expand into a miniseries format.

• Potential Edits and Streamlining Approaches (01:32:27 - 01:43:10)

• Aaron recommends removing William H. Macy’s character to focus tightly on key children and their relationships with their parents.

• Both emphasize retaining vital scenes such as the frog plague, quiz show elements, and key emotional arcs.

• Lighthearted Closing and Future Topics (01:43:10 - 01:53:43)

• Humorous tangent on frogs and Ninja Turtles.

• Promotion of next episode on 'Highlander 2: The Quickening.'
  
  
  

Transcription

00:00
Sam
And so I think that is actually like a really, if not a nice moment, but a good dramatic beat to the film, a good point of storytelling. I don't know if it's like heartwarming. You know, it's not like Superman. Like, it's not. This is not going to fill you with hope. This movie is not hopeful. Okay? This is not the James Gunn Superman. This is. This is the opposite of that.

00:22
Erin
I think it's hopeful because Luis Guzman plays himself throughout and he survives and he's still Luis Guzman in the end.

00:32
Case
We don't know what happened after the reign of frogs. Like.

00:34
Erin
Right, well, okay. But as far as we know, he entered Luis Guzman and he leaves Luis Guzman, like.

00:44
Case
Welcome to Certain POVs, another past podcast with Case and Sam where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Another Past podcast. I'm Case Aiken and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alicea.

01:06
Erin
Hi.

01:08
Case
Sam. We are going a bit crazy these days. I feel like life has kind of gotten into the way of things. It's making me have a very fractal perspective on the world. It's like I'm kind of intercutting rapidly between different plot threads.

01:22
Sam
Oh, I've been doing that forever. Add, but go on.

01:25
Case
Yeah, well, yeah, exactly like that kind of ADD is the kind of ADD that we need to talk about when we're talking about the Paul Thomas Anderson movie Magnolia. And to have that conversation, we are joined by Erin Callahan.

01:38
Erin
Hello, Erin.

01:39
Case
It is so great to have you back on the show. If people remember you were here for the Alien 3 conversation where I started off the Beowulf defense.

01:50
Erin
The classic litigious defense of that film. Yes. Of any David Fincher film.

01:58
Case
But it's so wonderful to have you back on. Where. Where can people. People know you from?

02:02
Erin
I'm. I'm thrilled to be back. People might know me from the comedy scene in Los Angeles. I'm a comedian, an actor, a clown in la, perform a lot in East LA at the Elysian Theater, at the Lear Kiperion and places like that. Cool.

02:19
Case
Well, and for the. And it's just wonderful having you back on because we've been friends for many years and podcasting has been a way to like reconnect, which is a great aspect of that. So today we're talking about Magnolia. And you brought this movie.

02:32
Erin
I did. It's. It's one of my all time favorites. It Was one of my. My first, I think, favorite films from when I was younger was one of the first things I earmarked as being like, I think I'm gonna love this for a long time. And I have.

02:49
Case
That's very. That's very fair. I have to admit. I hadn't seen this until you brought this as a suggestion. I watched it and I was like, okay. Yeah, because I knew when you suggested it, I was like, all right, well, it didn't. It made its budget back, but not by, like, a lot. Certainly didn't make its marketing budget back. So it's in that sort of nebulous zone of, like, it. You know, it returned its investment, but, like, did it really, according to Hollywood math, Like, who can really say? And credits in general are positive, but with, like, there's criticisms of the movie. So I was like, okay, yeah, they'll definitely be something to talk about, but it's one of those. Where I went in kind of blind, but with the approach of, like, what am I going to do on the show?

03:28
Case
And I rather enjoyed it. I rather like this movie.

03:33
Erin
Good. I'm so glad. You know, it's. It's of a certain time that I think people were really, or at least filmmakers were really into this, like, ensemble, intertwined, interconnected storyline thing. You know, Crash won the Oscar for whatever reason. And, like, I. I just feel like there was at the end of the. The last millennium, you know, there was this sort of trend of like, this ensemble drama, interconnected story thing, and a lot of movies did that sort of shoddily, and I think this movie does it really well. So at the time, it kind of blew my mind. And I think every time I've watched it since, it has still held up. I think the performances are so good. So good.

04:21
Case
Yeah. I was really taken aback by how strong the connections eventually unfold between everything. It was rather enjoyable in that regard. I did keep thinking about that episode of Simpsons where. What is it, like, the Thousand one Simpsons stories or whatever? Like the one where they, like, cut.

04:38
Erin
Between all the different 22 films about Springfield?

04:41
Case
Yeah, yeah, something like that.

04:44
Erin
Yeah, that.

04:45
Case
That was where my brain was going for a while there until it started to connect. And then I was like, oh, it's more like a herald. That makes more sense.

04:51
Erin
Yes, 100%. 100%. And I do think that there is, like, still an opportunity for the audience to be like, oh, there are things that don't connect, and then that makes them. That forces them to think about how do they connect? And it's not something necessarily that PTA is like, trying to force, but it's giving you an opportunity to draw these things together.

05:15
Case
Yeah. I mean, I'll have some thoughts when we get into didn't like and pitches for like, some of those, like, extraneous details that are of the world. But. But I. But the long story short, though, is that it's not a movie that is, like, easy to watch. Like, there's a. There's especially like when we get into the halfway point, into the. The later. I don't want to quite. There's a really distinct, like, one third mark in this movie, which we'll talk about. But.

05:41
Erin
But there's also a very distinct two thirds mark.

05:45
Case
Pardon me? Two thirds mark. Yeah, sorry. Like third act or third act is what I was thinking. Yes, Two third mark is what I was talking about. So there is a very distinct, like, 2/3 point. So, like, I. I don't want to say like the back third. It's really the back half of the movie, like, is where we get like, a lot of the emotional gut punches for some. Some of the characters.

06:02
Sam
And.

06:03
Case
And I enjoy it, but it would. It was definitely like one of those ones where I'm like, I kind of am glad I'm experiencing this alone. Like, I didn't want to, like, share the emotions of it all because, like. Like, you, like, end up feeling like, kind of scummy watching it.

06:20
Erin
Like, it's a little embarrassing. Yeah, it's a little bit. It's a little bit. You feel a little bit culpable. You feel a little bit implicated.

06:30
Case
Yeah.

06:30
Erin
I do think you. Yes, I think scummy is a great word for it, I think, because it. I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about Frank T.J. mackey, but, like, it takes you. His mindset a little bit. It takes you into Jimmy Gator's mindset a little bit. They're both kind of scumbags, you know, for various reasons. And I think. I think you understand why they are. But it. It is. It does make the audience very culpable. And I love that personally.

06:55
Case
Yeah.

06:56
Erin
I love anything that makes the audience feel, you know, implicated in things.

07:02
Case
Yeah. So that was my reaction to it. Sam, what was. What's your experience with this movie? What was your reaction watching it for this?

07:09
Sam
So I. I have to say that I feel terrible about saying this because, you know, Erin, the last time she was on, she brought Alien 3 and like, let's be honest, I'm a scaredy cat. And she felt very bad the Whole time. And. And I'm just gonna say I despise this movie.

07:26
Erin
I. Oh, no.

07:30
Sam
I like you so much, Aaron. This is not a reflection of how I feel about you.

07:35
Erin
I'm not. I'm not hurt or offended. I'm just sad that I put you through something that you didn't enjoy. I'm very sorry. It's okay.

07:42
Sam
Because I felt like I was like, the whole time, I was like, oh, no. Because the last time you were so apologetic. I'd be honest. I'd rather watch Alien Everything with you back over again.

07:53
Erin
Right.

07:53
Sam
Watch this movie again.

07:55
Erin
I. Oh, my God.

07:58
Case
Wow.

07:58
Sam
Hey, I did see this movie in theaters when it came out. I hated it then.

08:07
Erin
Different, though.

08:08
Sam
Yeah. I sat next to my. Who was then my boyfriend as he enjoyed the film, and I despised almost every single character in this movie. I had a visceral reaction, and when we left, I was like, what the. Did I just watch?

08:27
Erin
Like, what the was that? Like, it's like, you know, I only.

08:32
Sam
Really liked the frogs, and, I mean.

08:35
Erin
The frogs are great.

08:38
Sam
No, I will say.

08:39
Erin
And I understand that. I understand. Yeah, I hate everyone.

08:43
Sam
They deserved it, all of them. I will say that the second watch, which was literally for this podcast, I was like, I'm gonna watch it one more time because it's been years, and I have clearly blocked a lot of this movie out, which I really did on this watch. I was like, wow, I really don't remember a lot of this. Like, there was a trauma response. But I. You know, again, there are amazing performances in this film. And. And that was true when I saw it the first time, even though I hated everyone. And that was true this time. And, you know, probably my two favorite were William H. Macy and Philip Seymour Hoffman, because they're probably, out of all of the characters, the least despicable in their own right. And so this film is really interesting to me.

09:37
Sam
I don't even know if I have a pitch because, honestly, I could not bring myself to watch it again another time. But I definitely am here, and I'm going to try not to be too much of a negative Nancy, because I do think that there were definitely things also. Killer soundtrack. Like, I will say it was the one thing that I did absolutely enjoy even the first time watching it. I went home and I downloaded a lot of the songs, so I will give it that. So, yeah, see, I'm not totally negative.

10:07
Erin
But if you want to be totally negative, that's totally fine. I'm not bothered by that. And I agree. I think the Amy Mann soundtrack is one of the best things about it. And the fact that is sort of woven into the narrative is like, a huge selling point to me. And I also think it's, like, it's way too long. I mean, even pta, the movie. Yeah, right. He has said more contemporaneously. He's like, it's way too fucking long. Sorry to curse. But, like, he's like, I would.

10:40
Case
I don't know. By all means, fucking curse.

10:42
Erin
He's like. He's like, it's oppressively long. He has said that. So, like, I. I definitely.

10:49
Sam
It goes on forever.

10:51
Erin
Yeah, it goes on. It's really long. So I. I think, especially if you're coming at it from, like, an experience or a, you know, a relationship that, like, was not working or was not helpful, like, yeah, this is not going to be a good experience to watch this. So I'm certainly not, like, offended or upset that you don't like this movie. Like, it's. It's okay with me. I get it.

11:19
Case
This is kind of the perfect setup for the show where we have someone who is kind of new to it and enjoys it, someone who's an old hat enjoys it, and a person who despises it at the core of their being.

11:30
Erin
Yeah, I love that.

11:32
Case
Yeah.

11:33
Erin
I love the rich tapestry of opinion and experience. That's great.

11:39
Case
All right, now, for those who haven't watch this movie, like, and they probably should for this discussion, because it's going to be difficult to, like, really kind of get into it.

11:48
Sam
This is a confusing movie if you have not seen it.

11:52
Case
Like, does anyone want to try to explain what happens in this movie?

11:56
Erin
I'll take a stand.

11:57
Case
Yeah.

11:59
Erin
So I think that this is, you know, this is one of the movies that is sort of, you know, it was sort of germane to, like, the. The end of the last millennium. We had a lot of, like, ensemble driven stories where there were, like, interconnected plot lines. You know, Crash won the Oscar. There were all these other. Even Pulp Fiction, right? It's like, interconnected storylines. Babel, There's. There's tons of other movies around this time, like the late 90s, early 2000s, where I think there was this sort of, whether it was real or imagined, like, desire for these. For stories to, like, interconnect. Right. For people to feel a connection. And so it's an ensemble.

12:46
Erin
Magnolia is an ensemble drama where there are all of these storylines in the San Fernando Valley, which is, coincidentally, where I live now, it's all of these storylines that intertwine and you don't necessarily know how they interconnect until the end. And then there is this sort of, like, cataclysmic biblical event that ties everyone together and makes everyone sort of stop in their tracks and realize, or not realize that they are connected to the people around them. And so for some people, it was like, okay, who gives a. Like, there's frogs. Like, who cares that they think. They realize they're connected. Right. But for some of these characters, it's like they have really been operating as though they are an island. Right. They've been operating as though no one understands them, no one loves them, no one cares about them.

13:46
Erin
And then there's this event that ties them all together and it's an opportunity to be like, oh, maybe I'm not so different from everybody. Maybe I'm not going through something that is so different from what everyone else is expecting, experiencing. And yeah, that's the best way I can say it. It's an ensemble drama and there's this, like, cataclysmic event that ties everyone together. Yeah, Yeah.

14:12
Sam
I would also say there's a lot of thematic bad parents and their tortured children, for sure. That's. That's a thematic theme that goes through and that ties a lot of the storylines together.

14:25
Erin
Parents and children, for sure. Yes.

14:29
Case
Yeah. Going into the show, I knew that Tom Cruise played a manosphere influencer that had leaked into my zeitgeist. And I knew it was an ensemble piece. I knew that it was going to be a lot of characters being thrown at me. I kind of remembered once the movie started, people mentioned, oh, there's a quiz show element to it, which surprised me how invested the variety of characters would be in that whole scenario. And it not to be, like, part of the name or even part of your description of it, like, how much of that quiz show is important. But yeah, I think you summed up the big notes really well. There it is, this rapidly paced interpersonal drama where all the characters have interesting connections to each other.

15:19
Case
A lot of them through this quiz show in the form of really Earl Partridge being the producer of it and thus, like, all of his story arcs being connected by way of, like, his investments in it. I wasn't clear if the Frank TJ Mackie commercials were playing on the quiz show. I would hope that they wouldn't, like, that would be a really weird, like, that would be like, a RoboCop level of, like, satire about, like, the American world. And I don't think they quite had gotten to that point. In this.

15:47
Erin
But to me, the quiz show element of it, when I rewatch it, for me, theme that it sort of reinforces is that, like, knowing things doesn't protect you. That's the thing I get from that, right? Like, knowing information doesn't save you. It doesn't save your relationships. It doesn't help you with your parents, it doesn't help you with your children. It doesn't help you with your cancer. Right? You can know every fact in the book. You can be Luis Guzman, like on the other side of things being like, what the fuck? I know this answer. I know this. I know this. I know this. Right? You can be Stanley, the wunderkind, and you can know every answer and it's not going to save you. It's not going to protect you from the people who want to use you, the people who want to manipulate you.

16:39
Erin
And it's not going to give you the end result that you want.

16:44
Case
Yeah. So on my first watch of this, I kept thinking that Stanley was cheating and that's why he wanted to go to the bathroom, which was, I think on second point two five watches. After that I've sort of settled on like, no, that's not really in there. Especially because I don't think he's actually allowed to go to the bathroom at any point.

17:06
Sam
Right.

17:06
Erin
Yeah.

17:07
Case
Like, I, I just thought it was like the first time I watched it, I thought, oh, he's not allowed at the commercial break to go to the bathroom. And that's why he like, stopped answering all the questions. But it was. Is interesting how they like, juxtaposed like, Stanley then with like, Donnie, like, yeah, like, who is just Billy Quiz Boy from Venture Brothers. Well, for sure.

17:28
Sam
Oh, my gosh.

17:30
Erin
Yeah.

17:31
Case
Like, Venture Brothers must have aped.

17:33
Erin
This Bill Nacy character from Fargo. Like, yeah, same. I don't remember his name in Fargo, but it's, you know, it's the same guy.

17:42
Sam
Yeah, it kind of is. Yeah. But you know, I do think that, like, it's the. That is just interesting because you've got. So in the world of the bad parents and the children that have to deal with them, right? You. This is. Out of all of the children, all of the offspring, our Quiz Boy, he's the youngest, right? But he ties a lot of these other children whose parents are not real, even though they're adults now together. You know, William H. Pacey's character, his parents took all of his money, you know, and he's left as a. Has been. And his Scenes really play, like, clearly purposely against the quiz moments with the younger boy because it's looking back at himself, right?

18:30
Sam
Like his dad, they made a point to make sure that, you know, his dad is dropping this kid off, heading to an audition. That's super important. That, and especially the. I think actually, even though it's one of the things that could be cut in a massive cut, I actually think that one of the most, you know, telling scenes is when after he picks him up from the library, he's walking through and he's saying hi to all the producers and everyone backstage. And you almost have a moment where you almost think that this is the dad's job. Like, he picked up his kid from school, he was really sorry, but he's going to his job and he's acting like he's the big man on campus. Like this father is the big man on campus.

19:14
Sam
And then you realize his kids is one on the show and he's just going to the parents room and so he's living out his dream through this kid. And like that, that scene's actually like so good, right? Like, I mean, yes, it's a marathon of a movie. So maybe this is not the most. This is not the most important scene. But like, in terms of.

19:33
Case
Well, it is a pretty important scene. It is a one or right there.

19:35
Erin
I do. Yeah, yeah. No, I. I think, you know, absolutely.

19:38
Sam
Right.

19:39
Erin
Yes.

19:40
Sam
Yeah. In terms of character building and also just like the essence of what this is said, right? Because this is about parents. A lot of this is about parents not really, you know, giving that space for their children or outright abusing their children. This, this is a very strong. I mean, I think like later on in the film, when you learn about the quiz hosts. I mean, are we doing. I guess we have to do spoilers.

20:11
Case
We're doing spoilers. Yeah. This is a show that exists only for spoilers. Like we don't have a spoiler wall.

20:16
Sam
Like we just have a spoiler dancing around it.

20:19
Erin
It came out like 20 plus years ago. So I like. Right, yeah.

20:25
Sam
I'm dancing around.

20:26
Case
It's confusingly listed as like 1999 and 2000 because it premiered in December of 99, but was will open for wide theatrical release in January of 2000.

20:36
Erin
Right, well, but Sam, to your point, like, you know the thing, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but like parents not listening to their kids or not respecting their kids, right? Like John C. Reilly's character encounters this. This little black kid who's a rapper, right? And he's literally telling him who committed this crime. He's like, let me tell you about the worm. And. And he does this rap, right? And John C. Reilly is like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Like, I'm not. I don't care. And he literally tells him, and he's like, bro, you're not listening. You're not listening to me. Yeah, I'm a kid. And that is, like. That is so much a piece, a part. An essential part of what this movie is, right? Is like, yeah, telling the adults in their lives, like, you're not listening to me.

21:27
Erin
You're not crediting me as a reliable source, as, like, someone whose voice you should value. I'm telling you, I have to go to the bathroom. I'm telling you, right? Like, and. And they're consistently like, no, you don't. I don't care. Like, what. Whatever you're saying, like, it's not important. So. So anyway, I'm just, like, affirming 100 what you're saying. Yeah. Parents and kids, like, yes. That is shot through the. The entire movie.

21:55
Sam
Yeah. And all. And all the adults that are also, like, still stuck in this childlike state because of the neglect or the lack of sometimes right out abuse. Right? Those. Those people still are in that, like, state where, like, you know, so our wonderful female lead, our. The daughter of our quiz show host, you know, the scene where her mom runs to her to protect her when she finally realizes this truth, you know, that. That her father had molested her. Like, that is strong and awful, and this is terrible thing happening. But there's, like, this, like. And I will say that at least this movie ends on a. It is a mind of a ride for anyone who hasn't seen it and did not listen to us to go watch it. But it. But it ends on a. In this.

22:47
Sam
In this kind of bittersweet, almost positive end, because at least she's heard, she's believed. Like, we as the audience know that we have to believe her. We see that. Like, you know, it's in the painting. You know, like, he did it. Like, there's confirmation for us. Her mother believes her. Her. Her father's dead by frog.

23:13
Erin
Right? Like, you know, she's heard, but also, like, you know, at the same time, like, John C. Reilly doesn't get it now. Like, he doesn't get what her deal is. He doesn't get that she's addicted to cocaine. Like, he. He's completely oblivious to that. He's a bad cop. He's so bad at his job. Like, I'm obsessed with how bad he is at his job. Like, he drops his night stick down, like, two flights of stairs. He drops his gun. Someone else takes his gun. Like, you know, he also doesn't notice.

23:46
Sam
Anything'S wrong with her when he first comes in. Like, I was like, there's so many signs.

23:50
Erin
At no point. At no point. Even at the end, when he's. He's delivering the final monologue to her, he doesn't understand that she's a drug addict. Like, he doesn't get it. And so it's like listening but not listening. You know? Like, it's. It's. It's being an audience for someone, but without, like, really taking in what their deal is. So I don't know.

24:16
Case
Yeah. That gets into, like, sort of my biggest issues with this movie, which. Which is that there's this extraneous detail that doesn't get resolved, which is, like, all the stuff with the worm.

24:28
Erin
Yeah.

24:29
Case
Which was apparently Orlando Jones's character, who we only see, like, running away at one point. He's, like, the guy that, like.

24:35
Erin
Right.

24:35
Case
Well, we see him, like, a couple of times, like, in, like, from his back. That entire plot thread disappears at a certain point in this movie. And what sucks about that is that I am annoyed that it goes away. It also gives the one little bit of competency to John C. Reilly's character. Like, where he, like, finds the two. Like, was it two dead kids or something in the. In the closet? Like, two.

24:57
Erin
I think it's only one, but, I mean, I don't know.

25:00
Case
It looked like two people, but, like. But either way, finds dead people in closet. Like, but I don't see how you can remove. And the worm is supposed to be the father of the kid. And, like, I don't see how you could remove more of that plot thread without losing the kid entirely. Or at least, like, losing, like, the points that are important, which is the rap scene. Like, you. You could keep him at the end where he, like, saves Julianne Moore. But, like, you know, I. Like, it's just one of these things where the movie is, like, very bulbous, and it's one that doesn't actually tie into the rest of the connective tissue of the characters, but it connects with themes of the characters and is so important in that regard. And it's just frustrating.

25:46
Sam
Yeah. It feels like they wanted the payoff of the worm to just be him finding his gun that he lost again, because that's the only thing that really comes back to him. And that's just not enough when you're like, wait, but there were dead people. Like, I'm sure there are dead people are found all of the time. That's not what I'm trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that when we're in a movie where everything else is tied up with a bow and you've got like 12 different plot points and they're all tied up, you know, like I, and I wouldn't want to lose the kid because the kid was great, but it is hard to not especially. Because where William H. Macy finally does listen, or where John C. Reilly finally does listen is to William H. Macy, right?

26:37
Sam
Like, he actually has a comprehension moment which he hadn't had for almost the entire movie before that.

26:45
Erin
And still, even when he has it, he doesn't really have it. He likes a comprehension moment for what he thinks is going on, but he still doesn't really put together, like, what's actually going on. Like, yeah, and then he finds his.

26:59
Sam
Gun and so then he's not going to get in trouble with work. And, and that's where they leave it. That's where they leave his character. He's gonna.

27:05
Erin
But like, I like that because that's how the cops actually are. Like, the cops are fucking bad at their jobs. Do you know what I mean? Like, they're, they are like notoriously bad at their jobs. Like, and anybody listening to this who wants to be like, oh, you're antifa. Like I 100am Like, I hate the cops, I want them to all die. And I really, like, they're terrible. Anyway, I'm sorry, but like, no, it's okay.

27:33
Case
You're among friends here that this is.

27:35
Erin
Like a late 90s depiction of the actual cops. And like, he's a well meaning guy, but he's a terrible cop. And like that's what they're like. Like, that's the cops at their best. They drop their night sticks down two fucking flights of stairs, they lose their guns. They don't know who, you know, they hear, they report to complaints of a disturbance and they harass people in their homes, right? He harasses this black lady and like handcuffs her to a sofa, right?

28:06
Case
And then ask the white lady on the date, right?

28:08
Erin
Exactly. Like, like he uses his power over this woman who is high on cocaine. He doesn't know that, but like he uses power over her to try to get her to go on a date. He like handcuffs this other, this black lady to her sofa with no probable cause. Like, he just. Like, there was a disturbance, quote, unquote. Right. Like, anyway, he's a terrible cop. He's really bad. But, like, that's what the cops are like. And even in his meetings with. At his precinct, they're like. We can hear in the voiceover that they're like, yeah, protectants are. Blah, blah. Whatever it says on the side of the car, like, the cops are bad. Like, I love that. I love that.

28:48
Sam
Because no one would claim that this is a Copaganda movie.

28:54
Erin
Cops don't know what the. They're doing. And that is really significant for me for something that's coming out of 1999.

29:02
Case
And yeah, there's. There's even a. A part when, like, what is the kid Dixon is like, how do I become a cop? And it's like, it takes three years.

29:10
Erin
Right, Right. And this is not even. Like, this is not a movie about the cops. This is not a movie. But. Right. Like, that's. It's a. It's incidental. It's a secondary thing. So I love that. It. It's just like, yeah, this guy sucks ass. Like, he's not. He's not good at this. But where was I going with this? Sorry, what were we doing?

29:32
Sam
The gun, you know, it's fine. Because, honestly, it's really fun. We were talking about how we don't go back to the worm and.

29:40
Erin
Right. Yes.

29:41
Sam
How you only finds the gun.

29:43
Erin
Yes. But, like, that's. That's how he is as a cop. And it's a bummer to me that they did cut. Supposedly they had a bunch of scenes with Orlando Jones, and they cut all of those. Right. So we don't get to see those, which is a bummer. And supposedly there were also some scenes with Steven Root, who was in the original trailer, who was not in the final cut of the film, and that was somehow related to that. So, like, I am bummed about that because they're both great actors, but, like, yeah, I don't know. I. I think that the way that they have John C. Reilly's character dealing with, you know, the legal avenue of stuff. Yeah, I appreciate that. Like, he doesn't know what the.

30:29
Erin
He's doing, and he's posturing, and just like, all of these characters are posturing with these relationships that they have, and they don't know what they're doing. So. Yeah.

30:42
Case
Yeah, I. I found that the arc for. For Riley's character was. Was interesting. Like, the. The speech he gives about the law at the end. While at the same time, he's, like. He's not following the law. Like, he's letting Donnie off easy because he has, like, a degree of sympathy for him. And, I mean, at least he. He believes, and we know as an audience, that Donnie was actively trying to put the money back at the time when, like, he got smashed in the face by a frog. But.

31:11
Erin
Right. Yeah, but sometimes.

31:14
Case
Yeah, yeah.

31:14
Erin
Like, smashed in the face by a frog.

31:16
Case
We've alluded to it a lot, but, like, if anyone who has not seen this movie, there's literally a rain of frogs. Like, we have referenced this as a biblical event, but, like, literally. And it's a gnarly scene, like, when the frogs are, like, hitting the railing of, like, outside the pool at Partridge's house. Like, I was like, oh, man. Like, and there's, like, so many blood.

31:35
Erin
Splatters with so much frog splatter. It's crazy. It's crazy.

31:39
Sam
And it actually made me really sad in theater because I was like, oh, I know the frogs are fake, but I was just like, all these people deserve to die by frog, but the frogs don't deserve to die by killing these people.

31:51
Erin
But again, to make you feel better, they made something like 800 prosthetic frogs. Not prosthetic, but fake frogs. There were no frogs involved in any way. There were some cgi, but they made literally hundreds of fake frogs. And one thing I like about it is that there is this. So supposedly, PTA did not know about the biblical reign of frogs, right? He didn't know about that. He already had included it in his screenplay. And then somebody was like, hey, you know, like, this is a biblical thing from Exodus, Chapter eight, verse two. And he loved that so much that he includes eight, two over and over again in this movie.

32:38
Erin
So, like, even in the prologue when the guy is, like, trying to commit suicide but ends up being shot in the chest by Miriam Margulies, by the way, who is not credited in the movie because she didn't want to be credited. I don't know why, but she didn't want to be credited. And anyway, there's, like. There's, like, electrical wire coiled in the shape of 8 and 2. So there's like, 8, 2 over and over again in this movie.

33:06
Case
Yeah, There's a big billboard that just says Exodus A2 at one point in the movie.

33:10
Erin
Yeah, right.

33:11
Case
It's kind of like Star Trek with 34. Hiding. Hiding that all over the place.

33:15
Erin
Yeah, yeah.

33:16
Case
Anyway. Yeah, yeah. So there's, like, Legitimately, this. This huge frog scene. But what. Getting. Getting back to the morality of John C. Reilly's character. So I was thinking about how, like, how he fell on the D and D alignment chart as he's given this whole spiel about law and order while also letting Donnie go. And I'm like, does he qualify as a paladin, like, in older editions? Like, would he. Would he have lost his powers at this point because he performed a chaotic act? Because he was being chaotic good by letting Donnie go?

33:49
Erin
The nerdiest question I've ever heard in my life. I'm obsessed. Thank you so much.

33:56
Case
And I find that as an interesting moral conundrum for the character. Like, if he's trying to hold law and order as the thing that he. He most values versus the idea of doing good, necessarily. And I think that, like, it's one thing if it is a conscious act that he's making. I think if he's being subconsciously influenced by things like inheritance inherent or, like, implicit racism, like, that's another story. And we don't have enough evidence to really, like, go say how he would respond in most circumstances. Just that in the three calls that we see him respond to, the only one where he handcuffs a person is the black woman. So there's that.

34:31
Erin
But I also. Sorry to interrupt you, but I think that the other piece of evidence we have is that in terms of how he is real life versus ideals, you know, or versus, like, just, like, you know, concepts of morality. We have these scenes of him talking as though he's being interviewed. And then the wider shot is like, there's no one in the car except his gun. He's talking to his gun, right? He's. He's. As though he's being interviewed. He's preparing for these questions about morality. But literally the only other thing in the car is his shotgun. And the shot makes a point of showing the shotgun in the backseat. And he's like, so that's why I do what I do, right? Like, no one's talking to him. No one's asking him questions.

35:23
Erin
And so to me, that indicates that he's, like, really concerned with the appearance of his morality, right? Like, rehearsing these conversations about, like, what makes a good cop and, like, what makes a moral cop and what makes you. Right? And there's no one there. Like, there's no. And he has no prospect of being interviewed by the media, but he's like, he really wants to be ready for that. So he's rehearsing these things with his Freaking shotgun. So. So, yeah, so to me, that. That tells us something about his character in terms of, like, how he wants to be seen. Seen as a moral person.

36:05
Case
Yeah. Yeah. And, like, in that regard, like, I was thinking about, like, speaking of propaganda, like, Cops was still really big at this time, and, like, you could imagine that a lot of, like, Cops, like, have, like, this, like, ego trip of, like, wanting to be reality TV stars. Like, especially when Cops was the first reality TV show.

36:25
Erin
Yes, 100%.

36:28
Case
So there was a little bit of thought there. Yeah. I just think that he has an interesting juxtaposition of his actual actions versus the way that he wants to present his ethics and the way he wants to talk about his ethics. While he has some of the more dramatic scenes in the movie, I don't think he's really tested that much relative to some of the other characters in this piece. So why don't we move on to one of the less reprehensible characters and talk about Donnie for a minute? Because William H. Macy is great. I found this character a lot of fun. Yeah. Like, as a former Quiz Boy, and speaking for me as a. As a former gifted child, like, I certainly related to this whole scenario of someone who was like, yeah, no, I used to be smart and now I'm not.

37:16
Erin
That's so good. Yeah. Yeah. Relatable.

37:21
Case
Yeah. Now, I mean, like, he's apparently a severe klutz. Like, they. They talk about how he was struck by lightning, which I love is just, like, a character detail that, like. Yeah. He's famous for two things. One was, like, getting a lot of answers right on a quiz show and also getting struck by lightning one time, but even gets recognized, like, when he, like, drives through the. Is it like a 711 or, like a. Or something like a 7 11.

37:44
Erin
Right, right. Well, no, he gets recognized when he drives into the wall of the convenience store.

37:51
Case
Right.

37:52
Erin
Accident. He cr. And then some random guy is like, it's Quiz Kid Donnie Smith.

37:58
Case
Yeah.

37:59
Erin
Like, yeah. And, you know, of course, like, one of the. The key things that we know about him is that literally every time he's driving his car, there's that 90s song playing in his car. Dreams can come true, you know, and, like, it's so pathetic, it's so sad, and, like, hilarious, you know, that he's just, like, obsessed with this song that's about, like, dreams coming true. And, like, his dreams have not come true. You know, he works at a Jiffy Lube or a car dealership or whatever it is, you know, again, very similar To Fargo. But, yeah, it's a super fun character. And especially when he encounters. What's his name, Henry Gibson, in the bar and. And his crush, the bartender who has braces, which is why he wants braces. Yes, yes. He's.

39:01
Sam
He's so sad and hopeless, but he's so endearing. And that's partially because it's William H. Macy. And he's just very. He's just very good at putting on the layers there.

39:12
Erin
He.

39:12
Sam
He does. He does get a little.

39:14
Erin
He.

39:14
Sam
He does get a little creepy because he is a little obsessive with his crush. So he does cross the line, but he really didn't mean to. Listen, that sounds like I'm excusing his behavior.

39:27
Erin
Yeah, right. I mean, you know, when we're talking about. Because at some point, I assume we are going to talk about, like, how we would conduct, how we would shorten this film. Personally, I would eliminate this entire character. I love William H. Macy, but, like, this character to me does not add anything to the story or themes that is not established elsewhere. I think that, like, again, he's a great actor. It's very fun to see him, but, like, we. We don't actually need him. All the stuff about parents and kids, all the stuff about being gifted, being used by other people, being taken advantage of, I think that we establish that elsewhere. But I mean, also, it's like, you know, Willie Maech Macy, like, and his wife, who is also in this movie, they, like, manipulated stuff to get their kids into prestigious colleges.

40:21
Erin
So there's that element, right? Like, there's the little, like, William H. Macy, Felicity Huffman scandal about gifted children. So that's like a thematically relevant thing that wasn't relevant at the time this movie was made, but it is now. So.

40:37
Case
I love that you brought that up.

40:39
Erin
I mean, how can you not? Like, I went to a grad school where the foundational acting training was developed by Bill Macy and David Mamet. So, like, Bill Macy was, like, on. On our minds all the time. And his wife, she would, like, come around like our. Anyway, she was around all the time. They were around all the time. Like, we knew about them. And when that scandal developed, were like, oh, okay, we're just trying to learn about acting. Anyway.

41:13
Case
Don'T go on.

41:15
Erin
That's all I have. I'm sorry.

41:17
Case
No, it's okay.

41:18
Sam
I. I will say that I. I do agree with you. I do think. I. I think that the only thing I would miss is that I do think that he adds a little Point poignancy for just like, for the people who may not get the more subtle things of the film. I think he does add a view into the future of the current child who is on a quiz.

41:42
Case
He's certainly a direct foil to Stanley Spector.

41:44
Erin
I agree with that. Right.

41:46
Sam
And so I think in that way, like, when you're trying to hammer this thought home, which, I mean, it really does feel like PTA is really, like, there is a little bit of a rallying cry for children in the industry. Right. And so I do think that, like, when he's really trying to hammer home this part of what he sees as neglect and abuse with children will meet. Macy's character serves to kind of like, really hammer that home so that you can't ignore it or that you can't, like, you know, neglect it, like, you know.

42:28
Sam
And so then that moment of this child standing up for himself and deciding he's not going to get up, he's not going to answer, he's not going to be humiliated in people, and he doesn't care if that means the end of the show, you're rooting for him even harder because you see what his future could be. And so I, yes, if I had to trade and get some more of the worm back in and let go of something just so that could close up, yeah, maybe I would cut this character. But I do think that he serves a purpose. I don't know if it's the most important purpose, because the problem is there's so many stories in this very long film that I think that he. It's like the icing on a cake.

43:16
Sam
A cake is still good, but sometimes it's better with the icing. So I don't. I don't know. I don't like.

43:22
Erin
It's. It's.

43:24
Sam
I hear what you're saying, but also, I like icing.

43:27
Erin
No, I. I love that. I love that summation of it. And. And I agree with you. I mean, like, personally, like, again, I love this movie so much. I've seen this movie probably like five or six times. I don't mind that it's three hours long. Right. But I'm just saying, like, so, like, I love that Bill Macy is there, and I 100% agree with you about what his character accomplishes in terms of showing you what could happen if this kid is left to, you know, struggle and suffer and survive under these conditions for the next, like, 30 years or whatever. Like, I totally agree with you. I think that it's really enriching in that way. And then especially the fact that he's in this bar and he's so. Still inhibited, right? He's still not able to see.

44:16
Erin
Like, yes, I'm gay and I, like, have the hots for this guy. Like, I'm. I have to get braces to, like, connect with him in some way rather than just being like, do you want to go out? Like, you know, like, so sad. That's so, like, that's debilitating, that is. You know, he's about to get fired from this job by Alfred Molina with this, like, guy behind him, like, yelling at him. And they're both, like, doing accents. Anyway, that's. That's all very sad. And it's all very, like, you can see how, you know, Stanley's life could progress in this way where, like, no one cares about him and he is susceptible to all of these things. So, like, I admire all of that. And I personally, I like, I love that the movie is three hours long. Again. Like, I'm.

45:07
Erin
I'm happy with it as is. I'm just trying to imagine, like, for other people who are like, this movie is so goddamn long. Like, I need to leave. I need to get out even again. Even PTA is like. It's oppressively long. So, yeah, in that. In that framing, I would cut the Bill Macy stuff, but yeah, that makes sense.

45:31
Case
Like, it's a character that matters thematically because we. It helps set the stakes for Stanley Spector, which is this additional, like, level of tension because the. The record, which I think Donnie set, like, or at least it's implied, like, is. Is going to be broken. And so, like, that's, you know, why he's, like, being sort of, like, called out. Out again. Like, why they're showing, like, clips of him on TV again, that kind of stuff. But. But yeah, in terms of, like, his direct impact on, like, the. The bigger connections, he's more tangential.

46:06
Erin
And it's. And it's not strictly needed for Stanley because I. I do think that, like, the peeing his pants stuff is already, like, so high stakes. Like, that's so high stakes. The fact of his not wanting to play because he doesn't want people to know that he pissed his pants. Like, that's already. That's enough.

46:25
Case
Yeah.

46:26
Erin
You know what I mean?

46:27
Case
Like, well, why don't we move on to Stanley? Because, you know, like, in terms of characters, like, he, like, the Wikipedia page has this, like, nice little chart of everyone's relationships, and Stanley is actually, like, cut off from everyone aside from by way of the show itself. But he, by way of being a minor celebrity, like child wunderkind that they like, sort of like focus on. He is one of the background themes that everyone else is paying attention to. There's either the quiz show is going on or there's a TJ Mackie or Frank TJ Mackie commercial going on in the background of any audio at any given time. So Stanley is, in that regard. This chorus for the whole piece, which made my first viewing of it so interesting, where I was convinced that he was cheating.

47:20
Case
But like I said, I've come around that was just me, like, reading too much into it. But regardless, I think that it's an interesting character who is dealing with what Hollywood was becoming, or rather what the world was becoming, aware of Hollywood's child star abuse problems at this point and was more open to having conversations about it. So I think that there is a strong conversation going on there. Like you said, just like the. The fact that he pees his pants is like such a huge scene, right?

47:51
Erin
In that regard, I mean, to me, I'm not aware that, like, people were necessarily ready to. To talk about child actors in this way. I. I just, like, I feel like it was a. I don't know. I mean, maybe it's partly because of where I live. I mean, I live literally three blocks away from Magnolia Boulevard, which is part of why this movie is called what it's called. So, you know, it's supposed to be set in the San Fernando Valley. It's supposed to be set on Magnolia Boulevard somewhere. So I. I mean, there are a lot of people here who put their kids into this industry, and they are themselves like. Like Stanley's dad. You know, they're trying to be actors too, and they.

48:41
Erin
They have important auditions to go to, and they're trying to shuffle their kids off to stuff to help them get their own auditions. So, I mean, maybe people were ready for this conversation at this time or maybe it was just a coincidence. I. I genuinely don't know. But like, you know, the. The fact of just like a kid trying to do his best to please his parent, and his parent has a certain set of expectations, and then they're not met, and then the expectations change and, you know, the kid can't get his own needs taken care of. Like, literally he just has to go to the bathroom. I don't know. There's just something like really. I mean, there's something really tragic about that. And. And it plays out throughout this movie, right? Like, there's this bedridden old man who can't leave his bed.

49:38
Erin
He can't have his pain relieved. You know, he's trying to smoke a cigarette and he can't get a real cigarette, and Philip Seymour Hoffman has to give him an invisible cigarette. Right. And, like, I don't know, there's just. There's something thematic about that running through of, like, people not being able to have their needs met and, like, other people needing things from them. I don't know where I'm going with that, but. Yeah.

50:05
Case
Right. No, I mean, like, they make a whole case about how Stanley is sort of being used for his father to make money and for, like, the people to sort of, like, point and gain enjoyment out of him. To, like, treat him as a jester and that it's not fair is sort of like, the point that he, like, opines at the end. Yeah. Meanwhile, why don't we move on to what I see as sort of like two very similar characters, which is Earth Earl Partridge and Jimmy Gator, the producer and the host of the game show.

50:34
Case
I see them as very similar characters because ultimately, what it comes down to is that they're both shitty dudes in the entertainment industry that have had a lot of power and a lot of money, were terrible to their kids and were sleeping around on their wives, ended up in different relationships than they would have otherwise because of their being terrible. Now we find out the Gator is worse eventually. But I. They're. But they're both bad dudes.

51:01
Erin
Yeah. I mean, yeah. You know, arguably, one of them is bad enough that he triggers an entire empire of pickup artistry Right. In his son.

51:14
Sam
So.

51:14
Erin
Which, by the way, you know, a side note, if we don't have another chance to talk about this, like, the Tom Cruise performance, like, oh, my God, like, to me, whenever I watch this movie, I'm like, this is a whole other artistic path that you could have taken, which, like, not to say anything bad about, you know, the Mission Impossible stuff, like, that's great that you love, like, jumping out of planes, like, that's amazing. But, like, to see what he does in this movie is like, I didn't know you could act like that. Like, I didn't know that you had this in you. And I don't know, I. To me, it's. It's really just jaw dropping that Tom Cruise turns in the performance he does.

51:56
Erin
But anyway, to get to your point, right, like, there are these two media moguls, and they have kids and they have the impact that they have. And yeah, I. I think and they're.

52:10
Case
Both dying of cancer. You know, like, it's just. This is one of those spots where I'm like, it is cop. It is weird that there's the two separate forks from the same show that have very similar kind of setups. Like. Like, there's no way to edit out these two characters. But there's definitely, like, in a writing process to get it down to one. If you were, like, taking it all the way back to the script just because they're so similar. So similar from. From the. The stakes set up. They even mentioned that the. The host has two kids at one point. And we never. We don't really, like, focus on the other kid at any point in the movie. So, you know, that could. That could have just been Cruise or that, you know, or however you wanted to, like, rework the whole thing.

52:55
Case
I'm just saying that, like, thematically speaking, they're very similar roles and they play very similar roles for their respective families.

53:01
Erin
Sure. And I do think that, yeah, in a re. Envisioning of this, you could absolutely consolidate those into, like, the father, you know, trying to re. Engage with his estranged child. Right. Like that something that happens with Jimmy Gator and that's something that happens with Earl Partridge in this version. And you don't necessarily need both. Right. Like, you could have, like, the daughter and the son be one character and the estranged father be one character. And like, I agree with you, it's sort of redundant. Right. But I don't know, there's something about. To me, there's something about Melo Walters, like, the way that her character is with her cocaine out, addled brain. And then there's something about the way that Frank T.J. mackie is his supposed success. Right. Like, there's something about that.

53:58
Case
Yeah. Like, there's a lot of character stuff that's really interesting and there's. And you'd have to lose something in there. Like, I forget the actress who's playing Jimmy Gator's wife. Like, I find it. I find his whole, like, spiel when he, like, confesses that he's been, like, cheating on her over the years and all this stuff. I find that a very interesting, very scummy feeling speech that is similar to the one that Partridge gives about how he had cheated on his wife and so forth, but he also walked away and now he's got the young wife in Julianne Moore. So, like, they're like. They're very similar from a foundational standpoint that they are taken in different places in this movie. It's just so interesting that they're like. That they also are, like, effectively business partners.

54:38
Erin
Yeah, yeah. And. And there's something. I don't know, to me, there's something interesting about the fact that, like, Mellow Walters character is like, she's so unsuccessful by, like, every conceivable measure, right? But Frank TJ Mackie, he's like, you know, and the whole interview that he does, right. That whole scene to me is about shattering the illusion that he is successful, right? Guinevere from whatever news source she's from, right? She. She's done enough research to understand that, like, he's not happy. He has created this illusion for himself. And in the illusion, he's very successful, but in his actual circumstances, he's very unsuccessful and he's very threatened by that. So, I don't know, there's something about getting to see those two versions of the kids of that generation, right. Of one who is like.

55:41
Erin
Like, we can all agree that she's unsuccessful, and then other guy who, like, on the surface is very successful. He has a lot of money, but he's so unhappy. He's miserable. He doesn't want to talk about his mom and his dad. He's so threatened by that. He's so vulnerable to that. He can't handle it. That there's something that they have in common that's. That's interesting to me.

56:07
Case
Yeah. Yeah. Well, like, I wanted to talk about the kids next. So, like, in terms of aside, like, so, like, Gator is. Is terrible for, like, clearly molesting his daughter. Like, there's like, him trying to say, I don't remember is like, the point of it is like, well, how are you in a circumstance where you don't remember that the answer is no. Like, that's. That's the absurd spot right there.

56:31
Erin
Well, and also the. The first. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but the first time that we see them interact, he has violated her boundaries.

56:38
Sam
Yeah.

56:38
Case
He goes into her room. Yeah.

56:40
Erin
He invades her home, and she says, get the out. And he doesn't. He keeps saying, I'm sick. I'm dying. You need to listen to me. And she says, get the out. Like, it's not like, I'm sorry, I've invaded your. Your privacy. I'll leave you a voicemail. Like, no, he has no respect for her boundaries. Like, that's the first time we see them together. So that is pretty much in keeping with what we later learn. So. Yes, please.

57:06
Sam
Yeah.

57:07
Case
It's about him versus. I was just gonna say Like, Partridge is probably a more traditional kind of like he around on his wife. And then like, they. I. It's not clear if he like completely walked off or if he was kicked out just because we don't have the wife to sort of like, recount that part of the story. But certainly the relationship like fell apart and she had. She took the kid and like, did her best but died of cancer and like, you know, pretty fucked up situation there. So Earl has this whole, like, monologue about like, how his regrets about his like, infidelities. Infidelity plays like a really big part. And especially the older men of the story.

57:48
Erin
It.

57:48
Case
It interests me that is like, because it's the shared thread between these two characters. Like, it's like clearly like something that's on PTA's mind at this point. Like, I don't know specifically what if there's any life story that kind of goes into it, but clearly was a thing that he wanted to sort of address. And here's two takes on it. Someone who kept it secret for his entire life and only sort of reveals it at the very end versus someone who where it came out and disrupted his whole relationship then and now has his own fucked up family situation. Like that has changed gears on that one.

58:32
Erin
Yeah.

58:32
Case
Why don't, why don't we talk about Claudia for a minute?

58:34
Erin
Great. I love Claudia, and I love how obviously high she is all the time. And I love how completely oblivious John C. Reilly's character is to her being high all the time. And I don't know, just something I was thinking about as you were talking. This isn't necessarily like Claudia specific, but like, you know, like in this biblical. In the biblical passages about the frogs. Right? It specifically the. The. The passage that is referenced multiple times through this movie is Exodus, chapter 8, verse 2. And there's 8:2, over and over and over again. Eight, two. And it says, if you do not let them go, I will send you a plague of frogs. And to me, like, the interesting thing is this. This idea of like, let them go. And so intergenerational trauma to me is like the letting them go thing, right?

59:47
Erin
Of parents being like, you can live your own life. You don't have to do what I wanted you to do. That's to me, in this movie, that's what letting them go means. So I guess I just like, you know, Claudia to me is like, she hasn't been let go. He doesn't want to let her go. He wants to control her still. And even her mother maybe to some extent, like, wants to hold her accountable for their relationship, for their whole family. But, like, she's just trying to separate from them. And it's like, if you do not let them go, I will send you a plague of frogs. And that's what happens. Like, there's a plague of frogs and, you know, the children are not let go. The. The parents are trying to control them. The parents are trying to, like, hold on to them.

01:00:37
Erin
And even in the very beginning, in the prologue, right, there's this, you can see in the prologue the guy who's gonna, like, jump off the roof, right, who ends up being shot by his parents, who, by the way, Miriam Margulius is one of them. There's this coil of wire next to him that says 8, 2. And he goes to jump, right? And then they fucking shoot him in the chest. They don't let him go. They don't even let him die by suicide. They control even that. They control even his death by shooting him in the chest. So to me, Claudia is just like the ultimate victim of all of these, like, parents, like, trying to control their children, not letting them go. That's why we get the plague of frogs.

01:01:22
Case
Yeah, that.

01:01:23
Erin
Great, good talk.

01:01:27
Sam
But I can't.

01:01:29
Case
No, I mean, I think the relationship between Claudia and her father are, is one of the ones that, like, is the big, like, oh, shit moments in this movie. Like, as we sort of like, come to understand it, because it recontextualizes that earlier scene and it sort of like, makes this character who comes off as a bit of a fuck up. It makes it like, oh, now I understand way more about, like, why we are in that circumstance. And you're right, like, the fact that, like, even at the very end, like, her parents aren't ready to let go. And that's right when the plague of frog actually hits.

01:02:02
Erin
And I mean, she is a up. Like, I, I don't think it's like she comes off as a bit of a up. Like, she is a up. Like, she doesn't know what she's doing. She doesn't. Like, she's blasting her music. All of her neighbors hate her. The cops come. She doesn't understand. She literally can't turn down the music. She doesn't know how to do it because she's high on cocaine. Like, she's so high that she's screaming at John C. Reilly that she doesn't know how to turn down the music. Like, she's a mess she's not handling her life well. Like, yeah, that is across the board just true. But yeah, it's just interesting, like looking at that character in the context of, you know, the characters who made her.

01:02:48
Case
Yeah, I, I think that her relationship with John C. Reilly's character is gross as all hell. But I also understand how they get into the circumstance because John C. Reilly is a terrible cop and she is a fuck up.

01:03:02
Erin
He's the worst cop. He's so bad. He.

01:03:08
Case
The one, the one area will give him credit is that he's not at least as malicious as some other cops. But.

01:03:15
Erin
No, and, but I love that about, I mean, again, I said this before, but like, at this time weren't really examining Copaganda. Right. In media. Like, media was not taking that on for the most part. And so I love that the fact that the one cop that we are tasked with following in this story, he sucks ass. He's terrible at his job. He's the worst cop. He drops his nightstick down two flights of stairs, then he drops his gun. Someone else steals it. He doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. He's terrible. Like, and the fact that he's well meaning is irrelevant. Like, that's great for him, but like, he sucks ass and his institution sucks ass. Like, they're terrible. I love that about this movie.

01:04:03
Case
Yes, in agreement there.

01:04:07
Erin
It's realistic. Like his institution, they don't give a. They're. They literally say in a scene, in a voiceover, they're like protect and serve or blah, blah, whatever it says on the side of your car, just, yeah, do it, you know, and like he wants that to be true, but he's incompetent. He doesn't know how to follow through on that. He's terrible. I, I love that. It's great.

01:04:33
Case
Yeah, well. And his relationship with Claudia is like extremely unethical from the standpoint of like, well, you, I mean, even if you didn't know that she was like high as all hell, like the power imbalance of the situation, like responding to a call. And the only reason that she gets off effectively with just a warning is because he's into her. You know, like, that's like he's terrible. And she takes advantage of the fact that he's terrible. So I understand.

01:04:59
Erin
Say that in the text. Like, it's great. I love that.

01:05:02
Case
So I understand why she ends up in a situation where she goes on a date with him. Because, because she needed to get out of getting a ticket Like, I get that.

01:05:11
Erin
Like, I mean, literally the end of the movie is the Amy man song Save Me, and it's looking at her and like, it's. If you can save me. It's not like we. I don't think we're meant to think that these people are meant for each other. It's that this person is desperate to get out of their circumstances, and this is someone who can help them do that. Like, that's it. Like, he can save her. It's not specific to him. It's not specific to her. Like, she needs to get out of her circumstances and he can help her do that.

01:05:51
Case
Yeah, yeah. So why don't we pivot to the other kid that we wanted to talk about? Frank T.J. mackey.

01:05:56
Erin
The best.

01:05:57
Case
Yeah, so let's. He. Okay, so even though the. There was a big push to not have this be like a Tom Cruise focused advertising campaign, like, it's hard not to, like, remember that this is like a Tom Cruise movie. Like.

01:06:10
Erin
Well, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

01:06:13
Case
I'm just saying that, like, he's such a superstar and he does a really good job at this, like, completely crazy part for him.

01:06:22
Erin
Well, and I think that was what I was starting to say before is that, like, when I. When I watched this movie and still when I watched this movie, like, to me, gives me a window into, like, what his career could have been. And, like, he didn't choose that, and that's fine for him, but, like, I'm like, this is the one movie that makes me go, oh, he is capable of being great actor. Like, he could have gone on to do, you know, he could have gone on to have, like, a Jason Robards career to use somebody else in this movie.

01:07:02
Sam
Right?

01:07:03
Erin
Like, he didn't have to be like, the hot stuntman guy. Like, he actually has the capability of being a great actor. Like, this is the only movie I've ever seen him do where I'm like, oh, like, he's a really good actor. Like, all the other movies I've seen him do, I've been like, yeah, he's fine. Like, he gets the job done. But like, this movie, I'm like, holy. Like, he. He's doing it. Like, he's doing it.

01:07:31
Case
Like, yeah, there's a ton of stuff for him to like, ton of great scenes for him to work with. Tons of different styles of performance for him to do between his, like, manosphere kind of like on stage Persona, like the interview Persona, where he's, like, trying to hold back and then, like, his actual, like, Reunion with his dad.

01:07:50
Erin
Right. You know, which, you know, like, you probably know, but, like, was mostly improvised because he just felt like he wasn't connecting to whatever the script dialogue was. And PTA was like, you know, like, I guess Tom Cruise's actual dad had died just like a couple years earlier or whatever. And he was like, if you want to improvise something, like, whatever you feel connected to, related to your dad, do it. And he did it. And that's what's in the movie. And, like, that's crazy to me because that's not so easy to do. Like. Yeah, to improvise something that's that vulnerable and that raw and, like, he did that. He did that. And they put it in the movie and, like, it's really moving. Like, it's really affecting. And yeah, that was. That was Tom Cruise. That was his choice anyway. So I'm not.

01:08:46
Erin
I'm not hating on the Mission Impossible track. Like, he knows what he's doing. He's very good at that. But, like, it's really crazy to look back at this movie and see, like, oh, he could have just been like, a real actor.

01:09:01
Case
Yeah. I mean, he just does a great job in this. Like, there's a. He got an Oscar nom. For this.

01:09:06
Erin
Yeah, yeah, he's great. He's amazing in this movie.

01:09:10
Case
Yeah, that's. That's about all we can really kind of say, isn't it? I don't know where else I'm going to say this. My only real exposure to, like, a manosphere type character in the real world beyond just, like, being, like, made aware that they exist is like, Tucker Max. Like. Like, that was the only. Like, he was a writer from in, like, the 2000s, like, frat tire, I believe was the. The genre that they called it at the time. He would write stories about hooking up with chicks, basically, and first was a blog, and then it turned into a couple of books. And I purchased those books and read them, and for a while I was intrigued. But that's the closest exposure I have to anything like this. I know that these guys exist. I've seen some of the commercials for it.

01:09:54
Case
But for the most part, my awareness of them existing is usually people being like, can you believe these guys exist? Is the majority of my exposure to him.

01:10:03
Erin
Tame the cunts.

01:10:05
Case
Right?

01:10:06
Erin
I mean, that's like. It's so funny to me, but, like, that's, you know, that's what it's like. Tame the cunt, Respect the cock. Tame the cunt.

01:10:24
Case
Yeah, yeah.

01:10:27
Erin
Sorry. I mean, like, what else is there? Like, it's all. It's all nonsense.

01:10:34
Case
Yeah.

01:10:34
Erin
Right. Like, I mean, I love all of those scenes in this movie, though. Like, I love how committed he is. I love seeing, especially when it gets into the interview scenes with him. Right. Like, I love seeing how hard he's working to go to that stuff as a way to protect himself, you know, from real vulnerability and.

01:11:00
Case
Right.

01:11:01
Erin
Real relationships to be like, yeah. Women are all, you know, garbage objects. And like, women are all like, you know, he doesn't want to talk about his mom, he doesn't want to talk about his dad. He doesn't want to talk about any relationships that are not sexual. Right. But those are very easy for him to talk about. Those are very, you know, they're all commerce based. They're all transactional. It's very easy for him to be like, yeah, like, I leverage this and then she brings that and it's like tit for tat, like, whatever. And then he's actually faced with like, his dying dad. Like, he can't handle it. I don't know. I love that.

01:11:45
Case
Yeah, an excellent turn for the actor. So let's talk about the last character that I really want to make sure we hit in our individual character section, and that is Julianne Moore as Linda Partridge. Yeah, she's just having a grand old time, dropping F bombs like crazy and being that gold digger who has had a turn of heart on the whole situation.

01:12:08
Erin
Yeah, I mean, I think to me her pharmacy scene is like one of the best. Like, that monologue to me is just one of the all time when she's like, confronting the pharmacist.

01:12:20
Sam
Yeah.

01:12:21
Erin
Like, oh, this is like, you know, you could have a real party with this. Like, it. It kind of became like, it kind of became a joke, I think when that movie first came out of like, all of her dialogue about, like. Yeah. Like, you know, have you seen death in your bed? And all that stuff? Like, but like, it's so.

01:12:43
Sam
It's so good.

01:12:44
Erin
It's so good. And it's so like, I don't know. Shame on you. Shame on you.

01:12:50
Sam
Like, yeah, it's interesting because the first time I saw this, of course, I was much younger and I saw it in theater and I. I thought she did a great job. But this time, you know, on the other side of my life, not that I'm ancient, but, you know, I spent a year and. Well, I spent about 10 years being my grandfather's caretaker. And so this scene really hit me hard. Like, I had to pause and I cried because there is, like, a level of like, oh, yeah. Like, it is that difficult.

01:13:24
Sam
It is that hard when you're facing down, literally watching someone die, you know, no matter how you feel about them, whether she discovered that she loved him more because she was losing him, or if it's just in the moment, you know, because we could argue all of those things for her character, but watching that person slip away from her, someone that she betrayed, someone that, you know, gave her a space in this world and to be left by herself after that, you know, like, that was such a poignant. And, you know, just like. And because she was guilty, too, because she knew what she was going to do with those pills. Like, she knew, you know, but, like, you can't really blame her for wanting to kind of give him peace and give her peace in that way.

01:14:21
Sam
And as, like, as a caretaker, I was like, yeah, because there were definitely moments where I was just like, oh, my God, like, it would be just. Just so good when this is all over and feel very guilty about that. And so I thought she did a magnificent job in the scene. I thought she. She did it well. I thought she was good before, and now I think that this, like, it was fucking phenomenal. So, yeah.

01:14:43
Case
Yeah, I, Like, I. I share. And obviously I didn't spend as many years being a caretaker for my grandfather, but, like, the. The. The bits at the end, especially with, like, the. The oral administration of morphine, like, that really resonated because, like, I, like, that was, like, day he died, were like. Like, I was the one administering it just to like, keep him out of, like, pain at the very end. And, like, it. It was, you know, that was a scene and a plot thread that, like, definitely, like, resonated a lot.

01:15:15
Erin
Yeah. And I mean, I think one thing narratively that's so strong about that character is that, like, until, like, the last scene with her, I think, like, we only see her with extraneous people, right? We see her with, like, the lawyer who has, like, power of attorney. We see her with the pharmacist. We see her, like, outside, like, trying to negotiate this relationship that she's in. But she's not with him. Right. She's outside of the relationship, and she's trying to get outside people to weigh in on the relationship in terms of prescriptions, in terms of legality, in terms of whatever. Right. And increasingly, it's this feeling of, like, she can't cope with the reality of, like, the actual man in the bed. Right. And she has to be away from that. She is terrified of that. She's terrified of the reality of that.

01:16:14
Erin
But, like, finally she comes home, right? She almost kills herself in the garage, right? Like, she almost ends her life because she can't go inside the home and deal with him. And she's scared of him. She's scared of the intimacy. And again, I think this is something that comes up again and again. This movie is, like, the fear of the intimacy, the fear of either parents and children or, like, romantic partnerships, and is really significant and really meaningful to, like, see how she's struggling to reckon with the fact that she has hurt this man. She has betrayed him. And as she says to her lawyer, like, I've sucked other men's. And, like, it's like. It's a crazy scene, right? Like, people made fun of it a lot at the time. People were like, oh, my God, I've sucked other men's cots.

01:17:04
Erin
Like, you know, but, like, I think she plays it so well, and it. And it really is, like, really powerful that she's trying to reckon with the fact that when she got with him, like, she didn't think it was a big. She didn't think she was lying to him in a meaningful way. She didn't think she was giving something that couldn't be taken back later on. And she's now realizing, like, no, it did mean something. Something like, I. You know, he thinks I'm a good girl. And, like, he's built his now life around that.

01:17:42
Case
Yeah, it's this, like, theme of betrayal that, like, loved ones have for each other that, like, permeates this entire piece. And it's good to not just have it, just be. All the guys are scumbags in this whole scenario. But yeah. Yeah, when. When she's, like, all upset on behalf of. Of Earl and, like, slaps Phil about, like, making contact with. With Frank, like, that's like, an intense moment there where I'm like, oh, I kind of understand, like, because, like, you feel bad for Phil. And we. We haven't talked about Philip, so we should. We should actually. For a minute there. But you also understand, like, how terrible Frank is and, like, and. And how. How separated from their lives he already was. You know, like, death has. Yeah.

01:18:31
Case
Death is such a way of, like, bringing out, like, all the, like, everyone from the family and all of the things that have been swept on under the rug get, like, pulled out.

01:18:40
Erin
Yes. And. And the people who have been doing the caretaking and doing the maintaining, I think, are sometimes expected to put up with like last minute roster changes, you know, for lack of a better phrase. It's like, oh, this person is realizing now that this person is dying that like they actually want to make amends with them. And it's like, great, but I've been here for the last 20 years or whatever and like, you've avoided, you know, so I, like, I think it's very relatable that, you know, Julianne Moore's character, it's like, okay, even if I didn't actually love him more than anything in life, like, I've been taking care of him and now there's this person coming in at the last minute who wants to like horn in on this experience. Like you, like, get out of here.

01:19:28
Case
Yeah. But certainly strong presentations about like that end of life kind of phase of things. Like the, like both Julianne Moore's Was it Linda character and then Philip Seymour Hoffman's Phil Parma, which I can't help but read as Phil Pharma because he's a hospice nurse. Like.

01:19:46
Erin
Right. No, it, supposedly it's a reference to Parma, Ohio, or Parma, Illinois or wherever. Parma is like a city in the Midwest. It was something to do with Philip Seymour Hoffman himself because. Because of where he's from.

01:20:03
Case
Okay.

01:20:05
Erin
That role was written for him.

01:20:07
Case
Yeah. And he does a great job in that, like, being, you know, like trying his best to fulfill the last wishes of a dying man. Like, is. Is a very nice role there. Yeah. As Sam pointed out, he's like the least reprehensible character in this movie.

01:20:23
Sam
Yeah. Because he definitely goes the extra mile to try to. To give him his last wish. I mean, like, you know, he buys those Hustlers.

01:20:33
Case
Damn it.

01:20:34
Erin
Well, and that's the thing. I, I was gonna bring that up that. The fact that there is that one moment where we think he's being selfish. There's that one moment where we think he's just like horny and he's ordering all these, like, you know, magazines to be delivered. And then we find out that actually it's because he's trying to find Frank. Like.

01:20:52
Sam
Right.

01:20:52
Erin
That's so great. Like, but like on the phone, it really makes it seem like he's just like he's horny and he's bored and he's embarrassed that he just wants Hustler and Penthouse and Playboy, you know, but like, he's actually trying to do something for somebody else. Like, that's. It's great.

01:21:10
Case
Yeah. So I feel like we've talked about the characters, we've talked a lot about what we liked and we've addressed pretty quickly what we didn't like about this. And I think the conversation that we're about to have is very much like rooted in the like the length of this movie and how it could best be sort of either trimmed down or in a weird scenario, expand it if one really wanted to. But I think that unless you have other big things you want to bring up, I think we should go to break and then when we come back we are going to talk about how we would revise this movie at the time of production. But in the meantime, ads Are you.

01:21:56
Sam
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01:22:00
Erin
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01:22:11
Sam
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01:22:17
Erin
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01:22:24
Sam
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01:22:29
Case
And we're back. All right, so Aaron, we've got a ethos of the show and we've got a rule of the show and the ethos is that we are trying to come up with things based on the time of production. So what could have realistically have been done to change things? Now we can take that from the standpoint as a writer, we can take it as an editor, however, but we are trying to be realistic at the time of production. So I'm trying to think of a good example in this particular movie. But for example, it was written for certain actors in mind, so cast changes probably weren't going to happen because that was already a foregone conclusion on those kind of things. Now as for the rule, I am not allowed to go before Sam. So that is the one hard rule.

01:23:15
Case
Now you are our guest so you can decide if you want to go first. If you want Sam to go first, I just can't go before Sam so I can come in second or I can come in third depending on timing of things. But that's the basic rule and we're welcome to have this be a more collaborative, we're all joining in on the conversation kind of point.

01:23:34
Erin
Okay, I would love to hear from Sam first and case third. But you know, if it's necessary to jump in earlier, I'll allow it. But I mainly just want to hear from Sam first, okay, this is.

01:23:54
Sam
This is hard for me because, honestly, I actually. This movie is so massive that I feel like I really do not have a very strong pitch for it because, like, the main thing is it just has to be shorter. But the problem is it's one of those throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Right? Like, there's so many, like, really good small moments in each one of these performances that it. It feels sad to let them go. Except for the fact that watching all of them for three hours for me is torture.

01:24:31
Erin
So, so much. It's so much.

01:24:33
Sam
So unfortunately, so unfortunately, I do think, even though I love the kid, I don't think we get back to Worm. I don't think we get anywhere in there. I think that it's okay not to name the beat. I think we could have a different interaction with a child just so that we can bring the child back to save Julianne more if we want to, but I don't know if it's necessarily connected to a specific crime, because at this point, we're not going to tie that end.

01:25:12
Erin
It's.

01:25:13
Sam
It's never going to be fixed. The rap can be a different rap. It can just be a kid rapping about wanting to be a cop and him just dismissing him. We've got the same thing going on. But I'm saying, like, we're gonna kind of curtail a lot of that because it's just not working. After a lot of thought, I think Aaron is right and William H. Macy is gone. I. I do not think that it's enough. She made a good enough case during this podcast to convince me that he doesn't add enough. Although there are some really beautiful moments. And honestly, at the end, just like the frog hitting him in the face is hilarious, and it does add some humor to what is a very dark end because people are actually dying from the frogs hitting them and all the blood splatter.

01:26:09
Sam
It's nice to see him with his own blood and not just frog blood on his face, but I just. I don't know. I feel. I am conflicted about this decision because I feel like I lose some humor. I lose some humor by losing him, but we just. I'm gonna do it. You know, this baby needs to die. This baby needs to die, and he needs to go. And I'm just gonna tighten up, really focus on Christine and Frank. Hate him, but it is an amazing performance of a terrible character, and I think I'm gonna tighten it up to there. We can leave the quiz in because it still ties in with Christine's father. And it shows, you know, also Claudia. Claudia. Sorry, I'm renaming people. I'm tired. I'm sorry.

01:27:01
Erin
It's.

01:27:01
Sam
It's way past my bedtime, guys. And Claudia's dad. And so especially because, you know, especially once you learn what he did to his daughter, it makes it weirder that he works on a quiz show with children. So I, I like that eeriness. Like that this monster is out there still around other. It's not, it's never implied. And we don't know if he ever, like, hurt anyone else the way he hurt his daughter. But just the fact that he's a person who would do that to any child and is around children all of the time, it adds a little creepiness and maybe even spice to the story. And I, I, Yeah, a little trumpiness.

01:27:52
Case
A little less.

01:27:56
Sam
Yeah, a little chumpiness. You know, I, I mean, if we're.

01:27:59
Case
Gonna be acab and antifa on this, we might as well like, name drop Der Fuhrer in this whole situation.

01:28:07
Sam
And honestly, I think that this means that for me, at least in my edit, that William H. Macy's role would be a little more limited to just being like, basically to introduce the child and to basically be another man in Claudia's life who doesn't listen to her and literally just kind of be a supporting cast and really kind of just focus in on that main theme of those three children in this town, in this small block radius who had parents that don't listen to them and therefore kind of just streamlined the movie and keep the frogs, let it be biblical and keep Macy as a staunch Catholic so that he can still be there to be part of the church that is not listening again to a victim of assault and molestation and who just doesn't get it, who doesn't listen.

01:29:08
Sam
That's, that's how I would. I, I would just stream it down. We still get. We still have the Julianne Moore. We still have Philip Seymour Hoffman. We still have Tom Cruise being Tom Cruise. The interview is amazing. So keep that interview in there.

01:29:21
Erin
Still sucked other men's Cox, right?

01:29:24
Sam
Yeah, yeah. You know, in fact, I will say that definitely got made fun of. I could even cut down that scene. I don't need that scene. I don't need it. I need the pharmacy scene for sure.

01:29:37
Erin
Yes.

01:29:37
Sam
And, and she could, she could say I wasn't.

01:29:44
Case
It just smash cuts to her being like, I fucked up the Vince Cox.

01:29:48
Erin
Yeah, right.

01:29:49
Sam
It's like, honestly, it could be. It could be shorter. It could be out. It doesn't have to be there. I don't need that. But I do need her in this movie, and I do need the pharmacy scene, so she cannot be cut out of the film. So, like, that can't happen. Because there's also, like, part of the resolution of this movie that I think actually does work is at the end, Frank going to see her in the hospital after she tries to commit suicide. Because there's something that humanizes him, even though he's been a douche nozzle for the entire film. And there's something about it that gives.

01:30:28
Erin
Her.

01:30:31
Sam
Not even redemption, but, like, sees her as a human being, right? It's these two people that weren't necessarily human to begin with, connected by this other asshole, but they're there and they've both suffered loss, you know, and so there is not necessarily resolution or even them absolving each other of their guilt, but at least there's a connection there. And so I think that is actually like, a really, if not a nice moment, but a good dramatic beat to the film, a good point of storytelling. I don't know if it's, like, heartwarming. You know, it's not like Superman. Like, it's not. This is not going to fill you with hope. This movie is not hopeful, okay? This is not the James Gunn Superman. This is. This is the opposite of that.

01:31:18
Erin
I think it's hopeful because Luis Guzman plays himself throughout and he survives, and he's still Luis Guzman in the end.

01:31:28
Case
We don't know what happened after the Reign of Frogs, like.

01:31:30
Erin
Right, well, okay, but as far as we know, he entered Luis Guzman and he leaves Luis Guzman, like.

01:31:37
Sam
Yeah, well, you know what?

01:31:38
Case
That is.

01:31:39
Sam
That is very positive. That is. That is incredibly.

01:31:42
Erin
I don't know, like, to me, as a.

01:31:45
Sam
As a proud Puerto Rican, I'm very happy with that, for sure. But I will say that I think that that is a good mirror for what you see with on the other end of this, you know, our other child having a counselor talking to her, having her mother accept her, having her mom make this decision to choose her. I think that there's, like, there is a little bit of. Of hope in there for both. For all of these characters at the end. So I, you know, so that's why I would basically streamline it to them, because I think that's the heart and the meat of this film. And although there are other very great performances in the movie, I just feel like it's too long I'm sorry. It's too long.

01:32:37
Erin
You don't have to be sorry. I. I mean, again, the filmmaker agrees with you, so, I mean, he is on the record saying I would cut the. Out of it. It's oppressively long. Yeah, like, you know, so I, like, I'm not necessarily that bothered by it, but I definitely agree that, like, it would benefit from some editing and that there are some. Some, in my opinion, like, pretty clear ways to maintain themes, to maintain the narrative structure, but, like, streamline it.

01:33:16
Sam
Well, have at it because. Yeah, go for it.

01:33:19
Erin
Well, I mean, I. I mean, similar to what you said, you know, I think that, like, it. So much of the focus is on parents and children, right? And, like, I think that, like, I think. Okay, so I think that the Donnie. What's his name? Quiz. Donnie Smith. Quiz Kid. Donnie Smith. Right. I think his character and Stanley's father could be condensed into one character. I think that would potentially help a lot, like, if Donnie or if Stanley's father was trolling around bars, like, trying to pick up guys and was, like, closeted, you know, and, like. Like gonna maybe get braces because he has the hots for this bartender. Like, that would maybe help things that, like. Oh, yeah, like, being successful as a child actor didn't help this guy that much.

01:34:08
Erin
So, like, longing for, you know, this unfulfilled adult life that he doesn't have. And then he meets Henry Gibson, who has all this money to, like, throw at the bar, who's literal. Like, his character name is Thurston Howell. That's what they gave Henry Gibson. They made him thirst in Howl from Gilligan's island, right? And he's just literally throwing money at the bartender. And like, I don't know. There. There's something there that I think could have been streamlined, right? Of like, oh, the. The ambitions that you have for a child or. Or for yourself when you are a child that are put upon you versus, like, when you get older and, like, have to live under capitalism and you have to get a job and you have to work at Jiffy Lube or a car dealership or whatever. And, like, it's not.

01:35:02
Erin
It has nothing to do with your intelligence. It has nothing to do with what you spent time investing in as a child. You learned all this stuff, and now you're stupid, right? You used to be smart, but now you're stupid because no one's investing in you being smart. No one cares if you're smart. You. Like, it doesn't profit you. You might as well be stupid. So I definitely think there was something that could have been streamlined between that character and like, Stanley's father, who is an actor, slash aspiring actor himself, right. Who's still clinging to this fantasy. Like, that fantasy could have aligned with, you know, Bill Macy's lingering fantasy from his childhood. And they could have combined that. That could have saved some time.

01:35:50
Erin
So, I mean, again, like, you know, the filmmaker himself, a few years out was like, oh, I would cut the. Out of that movie. Like, it's way too long. So I, I totally agree, but it's. It's also like, I don't know, it's challenging because all the performances are so good.

01:36:06
Case
Right. And I don't want to, like, pull on threads and lose elements of it all because there's either thematic or there's narrative reasons for connecting the scenes as it is. I kind of wish that, like, we could have really, like, taken, like, here's a scene by scene breakdown of it. But, like, that would require, like, more viewings of this movie than I think any of us have the time for.

01:36:26
Erin
Or if you like. Sorry to interrupt you, but, like, as you suggested earlier, maybe like making it even longer, like if you made it like a miniseries or something. I don't know.

01:36:36
Case
Yeah, that would be a really interesting perspective of it if this was like an HBO miniseries that was like five episodes or something like that. Then you just like flesh out the worm plot and you flesh out a few other scenarios in there and you really sort of expand on it, which is certainly an approach to it all because. Because I think that currently the state of the movie has at the very least this, like, hanging place plot thread of like, the, like the dead people that John C. Reilly fights. And I find that.

01:37:03
Erin
But at the same time, like, sorry to interrupt you, but I, I feel like as a viewer, like, we don't give a. About that. Like, I don't. Sam, I don't know about you, but I just feel like when I watch this again, I'm like, okay, that's like a weird circumstance. Like, we don't actually care. Like, I don't feel like that's intrinsic to the story that we're following. Like, I honestly forget about that except for. For the kid coming in being like, you're not listening to me. Like, that's where I feel like it's relevant is the kid being like, I have information and you're discounting me because I'm a kid and you don't give a. About my point of view because I'M a kid.

01:37:38
Case
But, like, well, that's a big part about why I think it continues to matter in, like, every version of the story. But the fact that we see additional, like, shots of like, the character who's supposed to be the killer running around and, like, is the reason why the Gun Lost is. Yeah, Orlando Jones in that scenario. Like, I, I think that we get teased enough with him that it's, like, annoying that he's, like, removed from the movie. And, and so if I were making this a miniseries that was longer, I would, like, deal with a few more of those, like, kind of plot threads and probably spend some more time with Donnie on his own to, like, flesh out that role.

01:38:12
Case
Because, like, combining Donnie with the dad, on the one hand it allows for the scenario of the, like, the cyclical nature of abuse, but on the other hand, it then means that we don't get a stand in. We don't get a stand in for Stanley as an adult and we don't get a stand in for his parents or, like, for Donnie's parents.

01:38:35
Erin
I think we could, if Donnie was his dad, like, Donnie could have been the quiz. You know what I mean? Like, he could.

01:38:41
Case
Yeah, no, I, I, yeah, I totally get how it could be handled. And, and I think it would be effective, but I think that it's more effective with them split. And, and that's the conundrum of this movie, which is that, like, I don't know how much more I would necessarily cut because then we start, like, pulling on the threads of, like, do we lose Dixon the kid entirely? Like, Like, I don't want to lose that whole rap scene. And, but, like, if you lose the rap scene, like, or rather if you lose, like, the bodies, do you lose the rap scene? Do you lose, like, him finding Julianne more later on? Like, like, how do you start, like, trimming away at some of that?

01:39:16
Case
And like, I think it's like, legitimately, like, trimming away at random scenes to sort of, like, get this a little bit tighter than necessarily.

01:39:25
Erin
I mean, I agree. I think a lot of it is, like, internal cuts. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think you can easily say, like, wholesale, oh, we could easily lose this scene. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think that almost every scene is accomplishing something. It doesn't necessarily need to be accomplishing what it's accomplishing in the time that it takes. Right. Like, it could be truncated, but, like, I don't think it's super easy to be like, oh, this scene is not necessary. But like, you know, the kid being like, let me teach you about the worm. Like, that's great. That, that scene is great. And yeah, John C. Reilly being like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about because I'm.

01:40:06
Case
Hey, watch the language there.

01:40:08
Erin
Yeah, watch the, I don't need to hear that. I don't need to hear that word. Try it again without the lip. I think he says that. Yeah, try it again without the lip. You know, like that's ridiculous. But like, that's the scene. And you know that kid is trying to be understood. And that's so much of what this movie is, right? Is like kids trying to be understood by the older generations who just absolutely reject understanding them. Don't want to listen to them, don't want to empathize with them, just are pursuing their own needs and wants and agendas. And like, I'm trying to teach you about the worm. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I saw what happened. I know who did it. I'm trying to help you. I'm trying to teach you about the worm. And like, you don't care.

01:40:57
Erin
And like, that's, that's so great. That's so essential to what this movie is. So, yeah, I would hate to lose that. But at the same time, it's like, I get if you were trying to shorten it, right? Like, that's, yeah.

01:41:11
Case
And I, so I end up in the spot where I'm like, I know it needs to be trimmed slightly. I don't even think it needs to be trimmed that much. But, but I don't have great answers for how I would do it. I think that the, that it's a bit of a house of cards in that regard. Like pulling anything out is going to cause lots of narrative elements to collapse or thematic elements to collapse. So it's kind of a bummer in that regard. So, like, yeah, I'm kind of leaning towards making it longer.

01:41:43
Sam
No case.

01:41:44
Erin
No.

01:41:45
Sam
No. Bad case.

01:41:50
Erin
No. That's so funny. I've never seen thought of that before. But like, I, I get that, like, if you made this a miniseries and so the burden was less on any individual episode, right. Like, I, I, I see the appeal of that and I see the benefit of that because, like, the movie as it stands now is like so jam packed. And if you read about the development of this film, right, like, it originally, like, he was envisioning it as a short film and Then.

01:42:22
Case
Right. Just insane when you think about it.

01:42:25
Erin
It's insane. This, because the storylines became so complex that he was like, oh, man, this has to be at least a feature. Like, this is crazy. And it's crazy to think of, like, all the, you know, the novel adaptations that he's done. Like, There Will Be Blood and stuff. Like, you know, I think. I genuinely think he's one of the best filmmakers currently alive. But, like, this was a 100 original thing, right? So, like, I. I get that he was like, oh, this could easily be like a 20 minute short. And then he's like, wait, this can't even be like a two hour feature. This has to be a three hour feature minimum. So, you know, like, I. I get what you're saying about, like, turning this into a miniseries, right? Where it. Each character arc gets like a full fledged development thing.

01:43:15
Erin
Because as it is, it's. It's. Some things are sort of truncated and some things are maybe, like, excessive.

01:43:24
Case
Yeah. That's kind of where I'm approaching this from.

01:43:28
Sam
Miniseries, right? Not like a four hour movie that needs an intermission, right?

01:43:32
Case
No, no, no. Like four individual episodes that are an hour long. Long each.

01:43:37
Erin
Right.

01:43:37
Sam
Okay.

01:43:39
Case
And like, the fourth episode is mostly just frogs.

01:43:42
Sam
Are they doing flips? Can the frogs have swords rather than be, like, splatted? Like, can they, like, just wield a righteous sword to take people out?

01:43:53
Case
Can it can be like, link with the master sword, like, coming down?

01:43:55
Sam
Exactly, exactly. I just don't. I don't want to feel like, even though it's fake swords of fake frogs, I just don't want to feel like they're being hurt. Like, I want to feel like they're just there to bring righteous justice down.

01:44:09
Erin
I love that. And they will. They'll have two swords.

01:44:13
Case
Yeah. For their froggy in their forearms.

01:44:16
Erin
Not in.

01:44:16
Sam
Maybe a couple with ninja stars. Because I like the idea of them throwing things.

01:44:20
Case
Yeah.

01:44:22
Erin
Yeah, that's good. I love that.

01:44:26
Case
What was it from Ninja Turtles? The punk frogs. And it was like, Napoleon, Genghis Khan. They were all, like, named after, like ancient dictators.

01:44:35
Sam
Yeah. Those guys showing up.

01:44:39
Erin
That's great.

01:44:41
Case
On Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, there was at one point where Shredder mutated a bunch of frogs to use them as, like, rival. A rival group to face off against the Turtles. And he named them, I believe, the punk frame frogs, despite the fact that they're all, like, Hawaiian themed in their outfits.

01:44:58
Erin
Was this okay, I'm sorry, was this in the animated series? That was in the 90s, really? Because I watched that. I don't remember this at all.

01:45:06
Case
That show ran a really long time. I. I have the.

01:45:09
Erin
Like, the.

01:45:11
Case
The. Like, the turtle van collection of the entire DVD run, and it's like, I want us, like, now. Now I'm checking, because there's the red season or the red sky season.

01:45:23
Erin
I'm just remembering. Okay. Krang. Right. Was the brain in the thing. Yep. And then Bebop and Rock City. Right.

01:45:35
Case
Okay. It ran for 10 seasons.

01:45:37
Sam
Whoa.

01:45:37
Erin
That's so many seasons.

01:45:39
Case
That's so many seasons. And it moved to CBS at one point.

01:45:43
Erin
Wow. Oh, my God.

01:45:45
Case
So that's when I. Like. What I'm saying is, like, they ran for a long time, so there's pretty much any sort of, like, plot thread that you could imagine happened under the sun. So at a certain point, Shredder mutated a bunch of frogs to use as his own rival organizations of the turtles that he. He named the punk frogs, gave them barbarian weapons, named them after. After ancient warlords. Like I said, like Genghis Khan, Napoleon Bonaparte. Bona frog, I think, was.

01:46:10
Erin
Yeah.

01:46:11
Case
I forget the others. And, yeah, it was like, here's a battle axe.

01:46:14
Erin
Go.

01:46:15
Case
Here's a morning star. Go. Go. Fight the turtles.

01:46:18
Erin
That's crazy. Yeah.

01:46:21
Case
And, of course, eventually they realize that, like, this is actually kind of whack, and they become allies of the Ninja Turtles going forward.

01:46:27
Erin
Sure.

01:46:28
Case
Like you do.

01:46:29
Erin
Yep. And that's what all PTA movies are about, really, is the Ninja Turtles.

01:46:36
Case
Yeah. It's a reign of Ninja Turtles.

01:46:39
Erin
Yep. There will be Ninja Turtles there.

01:46:44
Case
There will be turtle blood. There will be ooze.

01:46:49
Erin
The Master Splinter. Master Splinter was really good.

01:46:57
Case
That's a really good one. That's a really good one. No, no, I golf clap on that one. That's a very good joke. I was distracted because I was trying to figure out the Boogie Nights portmanteau.

01:47:08
Erin
No. The Master Flinner. That was so good.

01:47:12
Case
Yeah. The Master Splinter is. Is probably the best. That one. That.

01:47:15
Erin
We're gonna come up with a joke that good ever again.

01:47:18
Case
Yeah. I'm just gonna stop, because that one was. Is too good. So we're gonna. We're gonna.

01:47:24
Erin
Great.

01:47:24
Case
We're gonna stop the riffing on this one because we're just going nuts. No, but, Aaron, thank you for. For coming on. Thank you for. For bringing Magnolia. Thank you for being a reason for me to finally watch this damn movie, because I did actually really enjoy it for. For the world. Where can people find you and follow.

01:47:42
Erin
You so people can find Me at Dingoes Ate My Baby on Instagram and TikTok. That's @D I N G O z. The number 8B A B Y. Because my real name is too common. There's too many variations of it. If you're in Los Angeles, you can see me performing comedy and clown various venues around town. I have a gig coming up. I don't know when this is gonna air, but I have a gig.

01:48:12
Case
It's gonna be a couple of months, so.

01:48:13
Erin
Okay, great. I have a gig coming up the end of August at the Elysian Theater. Beyond that, I'm not entirely sure, but yeah, you can follow me on Instagram Or. Or TikTok @D I N G O Z. The number 8B A B Y. And I post a lot on both of those forums there.

01:48:33
Case
Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. Unfortunately, this will be dropping well after. After that performance, but.

01:48:39
Erin
Great. That's fine.

01:48:40
Case
Yeah. But people should still check you out and find out what you're doing because you're a fun, awesome person. Thank you, Sam. As for you, first off, we should make a note that we need to keep remembering to ask you, how does this movie rank on your chores roster?

01:48:56
Sam
Oh, not at all. I can't focus, guys. This is not a laundry or sweeping or doing the dishes movie. This is a. Oh, God, this movie's on again. Turn it off. I'm sorry, but it is. It is a movie that if you love it, you're going to love it and you're going to want to pay close attention and not do any chores for or like me. You're going to see it, run to your tv, turn it off, and put on something that is better for chores, like the Terminator.

01:49:34
Erin
Okay. I mean, personally, I love that. I love that. I love the unapologetic, like, drawing of a line. That's great. And you know what I mean? Like. Like, if you are gonna watch a movie, like, you know what you want, and you either want something that's gonna draw you in or you want something that you're gonna say, fuck off. And I love that. I love Sam. I love how unapologetic you are and, like, the line that you're drawing in sand. That's great. That's great. I agree.

01:50:10
Sam
Thank you.

01:50:11
Case
Yeah. Well, on that note, Sam, where can people find you and follow you?

01:50:16
Sam
They can find me here on another pass every time we drop, you know, any one of our episodes. They can also find me at the discord. I'm lurking there. I may not answer you, but I'm there. I see what you say and then other than that, I am very busy trying to re forget this film. So if you have any complaints about anything I said about this film, especially if you loved it, you can find Case at and discuss it with him at these locations.

01:50:47
Erin
Case.

01:50:47
Sam
Where can they find you?

01:50:48
Case
The the best place to find me.

01:50:53
Sam
I'm sorry.

01:50:54
Erin
No, it's fine. It's fine. Do what you have to.

01:50:57
Case
The the best place to find me is the CPOV Discord, of course. Course. That is a great place that has wonderful conversations going on of all kinds of nerdy topics. Otherwise you can find me on the blueskiase Aiken, you can find me on Facebook if you're really looking for me, or you can find me on Instagram where I'm holding on for dear life to my aim. Screen name Quetzalcoatl5, which Aaron remembers from back in the day. And that's Q U E T Z A L C o a T L 5. For anyone who's curious, it is Aztec mythology and Legion of Superheroes reference because I was pretentious as hell in high school. But moving on, we should thank some people because we have a Patreon running now. We actually have some awesome people to thank who joined at the executive producer level.

01:51:43
Case
So we need to thank Micah McCaw, Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, Lee Greger, Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Mastropiero, Casey and Nancy Aiken, Adam Sampter and Keith Litnan, who are all wonderful people who joined at the executive producer level. But you can come and join even at the free tiers. We're doing all kinds of promotional stuff. I'm doing essays twice a week now, one on just Nerd topics and another one in D and D stuff every single week, Mondays and Tuesdays. But you'll also get, in theory, advance notices about the recordings. We're working on being like ahead of schedule on stuff, but currently we're on schedule at stuff. And at the very least you'll find out when anything that we're doing pops up. And it's a great way just to support, even if you're just supporting at the free tier.

01:52:29
Case
It's still wonderful that we've got people, but, you know, if you want to kick us some bucks, that's awesome. Like, I'm not gonna say no, but otherwise, Aaron, thank you again for coming on. It's wonderful.

01:52:41
Erin
Thank you both so much for having me back. I would love to come back anytime. And in the meantime, Sam, I will have someone come around to smash you over the head so you don't have to remember this movie.

01:52:54
Sam
Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.

01:52:57
Case
Yeah, I mean, Sam being smashed over the head might be the way to go for all the future movies on the show. Because, Sam, what do we have coming up next time?

01:53:06
Sam
Well, next time we'll be talking about Highlander 2 the Quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

01:53:18
Case
Thanks for listening to Certain Point of View's Another Pass podcast. Don't miss an episode, just subscribe and review the show on itunes. Just go to certainpov.com Another pass is.

01:53:31
Sam
A certain POV production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sophia Ricciardi. Our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri, and our outro theme is By Matt Brogan.

01:53:48
Case
CPOV certainpov.com.