Another Pass at Alien Resurrection

Case and Sam are joined by DJ Nik to revivify some Xenomorphs!

SUBSCRIBE: Apple Podcasts • Google Podcasts • Spotify • iHeartRADIO • Stitcher • RSS

Overview

In the latest episode of the Another Pass podcast, hosts Case Aiken and Sam Alicea, along with guest DJ Nik, delve into the complexities of "Alien Resurrection," the fourth installment of the renowned Alien franchise. They discuss the film's controversial elements, including its scientific plausibility, character dynamics, and Joss Whedon’s unique screenplay style. The conversation highlights the film's shift towards a more campy tone and examines the visual aesthetics brought by director Jean-Pierre Jeunet, particularly the impressive underwater sequences. The hosts critique the character motivations and propose improvements, with Sam suggesting clearer intentions for the scientists and more depth for the space pirates, while Nick proposes focusing primarily on the scientists and Ripley in a more claustrophobic setting. Case adds ideas for restructuring the narrative arc to enhance suspense. The episode concludes with a tease for their next discussion covering "Highlander 2: The Quickening."

Notes

Introduction to Alien Resurrection Discussion (00:00 - 10:27)

• Case Aiken and Sam Alicea host Another Pass podcast with guest DJ Nik

• They're discussing Alien Resurrection, the fourth film in the Alien franchise

• Nik introduces himself as a host of multiple podcasts including Whiskey and Cigarettes

• Case positions this film as less respected than Alien 3, which he previously defended

• Nick describes his love for the franchise, noting the Xenomorph as 'the greatest creature ever created'

• He appreciates how each film in the franchise has different directors with different visual styles

• Sam admits she only watched the Alien films because of the podcast, as she's 'afraid of everything'

Plot Elements and Science Issues (10:27 - 20:35)

• The group discusses the questionable science of cloning Ripley to harvest the alien inside her

• The movie is set 200 years after Alien 3, with Ripley having died in the previous film

• Sam suggests the genetic material might have been recovered like in Jurassic Park

• Case notes the first three films maintained scientific plausibility while this one stretches credibility

• The movie explores Ripley as a superhuman hybrid, shifting the franchise toward sci-fi adventure

• Nick points out that Sigourney Weaver was brought back as the flagship character

• Case questions the scientists' motives for bringing the aliens to Earth

Characters and Crew Dynamic (20:35 - 30:37)

• The movie features a crew of space pirates rather than soldiers or workers as in previous films

• Sam notes the villain motivations aren't properly established, raising questions about their plans

• The group questions why the aliens are kept together in cells where they can conspire to escape

• Nick suggests this is due to 'human hubris' and scientists wanting to study their interactions

• The movie has a distinct 'Joss Whedon' style, as he wrote the screenplay

• Case appreciates the lived-in world aesthetic consistent with previous Alien films

• Sam praises the film's beautiful visuals and camera work despite her criticisms

Alien Sequences and Visual Elements (30:38 - 39:45)

• The underwater sequence with aliens swimming is praised as visually impressive

• Sam notes the unrealistic breath-holding duration in the underwater scene

• The group appreciates creative kills and set pieces in the film

• They discuss how director Jean-Pierre Jeunet brought a different visual style

• The film is described as more campy than previous entries, closer to a slasher film in space

• The cast is discussed, with Michael Wincott as the captain and Ron Perlman as an abrasive character

• Winona Ryder is described as distractingly famous for her role as the android Call

The Xenomorphs and Newborn Design (39:45 - 49:46)

• The aliens show intelligence when escaping their cells by sacrificing one of their own

• The group discusses the alien queen's live birth ability instead of egg-laying

• Case questions how this is an 'evolutionary upgrade' when it seems painful and inefficient

• The newborn hybrid alien design is praised as appropriately freaky and different

• The theme of motherhood continues from previous films in the franchise

• Nick points out how the newborn looks more human than regular xenomorphs

• Sam simply finds the newborn 'gross' and disturbing

Improving the Film - Sam's Pitch (49:46 - 01:01:06)

• Sam suggests clarifying the scientists' motives early in the film

• She proposes establishing that the main goal is creating super-soldiers like Ripley

• Sam recommends making the pirates more likeable so viewers care when they die

• She suggests giving hints about Winona Ryder's character being an android earlier

• Sam recommends establishing a military base on Earth as the destination for the specimens

• For the underwater scene, she suggests allowing characters to surface for air occasionally

• She would keep the film's ending but focus on fixing the first act and character development

Nick's Alternative Approach (01:01:06 - 01:10:07)

• Nick proposes eliminating the space pirates entirely

• He suggests focusing on scientists, Ripley, and Call (Winona Ryder's character)

• He recommends a more claustrophobic setting with military presence to explore ethics

• Nick suggests adding communication between the space station and Earth

• He proposes showing how Ripley's DNA was extracted to address audience questions

• Nick mentions that Joss Whedon's original script featured Newt instead of Ripley

• He wonders how the film might have been different if directed by Danny Boyle, who was approached first

Case's Restructuring Proposal (01:10:08 - 01:18:51)

• Case suggests making the space pirates the focus of the first act, with Winona Ryder as the viewpoint character

• He proposes revealing Ripley later as a surprise, during the basketball scene

• He recommends establishing that scientists have been successfully cloning aliens already

• Case suggests the aliens should have been in captivity longer to justify their escape methods

• He likes keeping the back half of the movie mostly intact

• The hosts share that Sigourney Weaver actually made the backward basketball shot in one take

• They conclude by mentioning their next episode will cover Highlander 2: The Quickening

Transcription

00:00
Sam
Because for an Alien movie, I should be scared. I wasn't. Listen.

00:05
Case
Yeah, it's certainly the least horror focused of at least the original four, which is impressive considering the second one is more of an action movie than a horror movie. But yeah, this one is again, the science adventure kind of nature of it kind of takes hold.

00:20
Sam
Yeah. And I'll say until Case makes me watch more or this podcast makes me watch more Alien movies, I'm going to certify this as the least scary of the four I've seen so far. It's Sam stamp of least scary. The scaredy cat stamp of you'd probably be able to get through this if you're a coward like me.

00:47
Case
Welcome to certain POVs, another Pass podcast with Case and Sam, where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Another Pass podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alicea.

01:06
Sam
Hi.

01:08
Case
Sam. I heard you just now. And you know why? Because we're on Earth. But you know where I wouldn't have been able to hear you?

01:16
Sam
Space.

01:17
Case
That's right. Because in space, no one can hear you scream. That's right. We are back with the Alien franchise, this time to talk about the one that kind of. I don't want to say killed it for me, but certainly put a period in where I see the franchise kind of ending. Today, we are here talking about Alien Resurrection. And to have that conversation, we are joined by DJ Nick.

01:39
Nik
Hey, guys, thank you so much for having me on. Looking forward to talking about this movie today.

01:43
Case
Yeah, Nick, it is so great to have you on another pass. We have done a lot of superhero content both on your show, Happiness and Darkness, and on Men of Steel. You've been wonderful just to chat about superhero stuff, but you've got other stuff going on. Who are you? Real quick, just for everyone listening.

01:58
Nik
Well, I mean, since we'll begin the shopping list later on. I mean, I do host multiple podcasts, which you'll be hearing about later on. Other than that, when it comes to my day job, I host a country music radio show called Whiskey and Cigarettes.

02:09
Case
Which I just love. The. The amount of content that you're putting out, it is fantastic, both privately and professionally. You are. You're. You're living the dream, as it were.

02:18
Nik
We tried to stay busy.

02:20
Case
Yes, busy is better than slow, which my therapist tells me. Stop. Stop saying that. But yeah, so. So we are here talking about Alien Resurrection. And look, I'm the guy who, like, not only, like, was excited to talk about Alien 3 on this show, but also went on the Reels of Justice podcast to defend that movie and won my case for why it's a good movie and it's considered the bad one. That's because I consider. I, I consider this one the bad one. I, I have some problems with this movie, but it's still part of the Alien franchise, and I love the Alien franchise, so I, I, there.

02:56
Case
There's certainly stuff to like in this movie and stuff that I, I want to accentuate when we get into the pitch territory, but I kind of just wanted to see what your respective histories with the franchise are. We, We've gone over this, and we'll go over it again just for listeners, Sam and I, because we talked about Alien 3 before. But, Nick, what. You're, you're our guest here. What is your history with the Alien franchise?

03:16
Nik
Well, as you and I were talking about off air, I'm a huge fan of this franchise. I mean, the Xenomorph, to me is like the greatest creature ever created. I mean, if I could have, like, pets, I'd probably have a Xenomorph and McGorgan if I could. So I guess that's where I kind of stand with this. And I think the beauty about this franchise is you've had different directors for every single one of these movies, and that's probably why visually, they're all so different. I know a lot of people have problems with this one, but I think it's great. I mean, I equated the Alien franchise to the Alice Cooper discography because every single album that Alice does is different from the previous one. And I think that's kind of what happens with this.

03:54
Nik
Yes, there are, this is a, it is a problematic movie, and I'm sure we'll be talking about this, but by large, I enjoy this one as well. I mean, these are like kids to me. So even the kid that misbehaves the most is kind of more Problem Child, if you will. I love this one as well.

04:11
Case
You know, it's funny you said that, and it's so weird because looking at this movie, I was watching it and observing, like, oh, they're kind of trying to do the Alien 2, like, power dynamic, but they're flipping a bunch of this. Of the stuff, and they're making actually quite an effort at doing a different kind of movie. It's not the jingoistic like military one, it's the scrappy pirate underdog group kind of perspective on a crowd of aliens in this movie. And it occurred to me that like you're dead on. Like they actually have had very different dynamics each time, you know, with Alien 1 and 3 arguably having the most similar one in terms of it just being one alien. That's like chasing them in a facility.

04:47
Case
But, but they do all have like that different dynamic which is so funny because the joke about the Alien franchise is that it's always the setup for Aliens that like, it's always that like, oh well, the company's doing something with the aliens and now that there's a bunch of them and like you're a cult colonial marine, you have to deal with them. Like every single video game adaptation. All of the comic books, like the Alien vs. Predator movies have had similar kind of vibes where it's like, here's our team that's going in to deal with these. And it's interesting to note that is a reputation that the franchise has earned without it necessarily being true for the actual source material. So I do want to give props to this movie like right off the bat that you're right.

05:26
Case
It is a different dynamic than what we have seen up until this point. Nick. So how. I guess I'm curious because I, I have answer for mine. How old were you when you were first introduced to the Alien franchise? And which one was it?

05:39
Nik
It was actually aliens and I think I was about 12 or 13 at the time. I was actually at summer camp and it was a tennis summer camp. And basically we had this one TV room where when weren't, you know, playing matches and what have you, we just kind of chill in this room. There were like a stack of VHS tapes that were there, you know, that whoever kind of taped at the time and so you could just watch movies. And that was very first time I sat down to watch it and I was mesmerized by what I saw on screen. And even though 12 year old me reading understand much about the bigger picture, if you will, you know, cinema and what have you, I was just so captivated by it.

06:16
Nik
And even though I'm not a sci fi guy, I mean the only sci Fi show I watch on a regular basis, Doctor who and that's it. I really, I thoroughly enjoyed it. And I guess that's kind of how it kind of how my love Affair with this franchise came about.

06:30
Case
Cool. Cool. Sam, for listeners at home, can you refresh everyone's memory on your interaction with this franchise?

06:37
Sam
Yeah, I probably watched my first watched Alien and only Alien with my mom when I was maybe in my 20s, because she was like, this is a very good movie. I know you're afraid of everything, but you need to watch this movie. And she was right. It was a very good movie. And I proceeded to not want to watch any of the other movies because it was terrifying to me. I'm afraid of everything. I'm afraid of my own shadow. So I was definitely not in it for that. And then I had to watch Aliens because we had to cover the third Alien movie. So I had to do a double feature because you have to watch. So now, basically, I have watched these films because of you, Case, because of you and our guests.

07:26
Sam
That is why I have now watched four complete Alien films.

07:33
Case
Yep.

07:33
Sam
Because of you.

07:35
Case
Well, this is true. Haha. Haha.

07:39
Nik
I have to ask though, Sam, at this point, will you go and watch Alien? Romulus?

07:44
Sam
I don't know. I don't know. You know, I. I see the preview and I feel like it looks visually. You know, the thing about the Alien movies, and I will give it this, they always visually look pretty great. Like, like, it's always like this one. Actually, the movie that we're talking about, Resurrection, is actually very beautiful in some of the shots. Like, it's really gorgeous. There's some really beautiful shots in it. But I. I feel like Romulus looks a little too, too slasher for me. And, And I'm. I'm. I'm not about that life. I'm not about. I'm. I'm. No, no, probably not. Probably not. If we do it on the show, I will end up watching it for the show. I probably will not spend my money to watch creatures hug anyone's face. No, that will not be me. There's.

08:33
Sam
There's something in the water. I. First of all, I wouldn't even go into space to go. Like, I would be the person that'd be like, I want to stay on this spaceship. And you just let me know if you need a getaway driver. Like, I'm not. I'm not following Darth Vader down any road. I'm not brave guys. Like, I cannot. I'm not a space pirate at all. I am regulated ships. I am sitting in the. I'm working in the cafeteria on Star Trek. I'm not going on missions.

09:05
Nik
You're actually probably the wisest of the bunch then I think because usually the result of everything is messing around and finding out. So, you know, if you're not the type, mess around and find out you don't get into trouble.

09:16
Case
Yeah, like it's for me because I, I would go into space like I, I that, you know, if you presented the option for anything like that, I'm like, yeah, of course. Obviously I would want to experience these things or find out more. Even though this franchise is the franchise of my nightmares, I, I love this franchise. But God damn it, I saw Alien 3 on TV when I was like 10 and that has replace every monster that I, I see in my nightmares with the xenomorph. Like it is the thing that haunts me when I am in that kind of dream where you're just running from something that's chasing you. It used to bears or wolves or werewolves or things like that.

09:56
Case
And then, then it became the xenomorph and then it's never look back because the xenomorph is sufficiently scary to be terrifying all the time. But at the same time I, I have this fascination with the franchise and I really love the first three. Yes. And I said first three because even Alien three I have a deep love for and like strong feelings about. You know, I've talked about the whole Beowulf thing that it sort of replicates the Beowulf cycle with the first movie being akin to encountering Grendel and then the second movie being all about facing off against the mother of the monsters. And then last or in the third one, they, it's the dragon and they call the alien the dragon in that movie. And I get really hyped up about those weird parallels there that are possibly intentional.

10:39
Case
They seem to be intentional. But at the same time I've never seen anything that's confirmed that was the goal. Then, then talking about this movie I have weird feelings because doesn't have anything to ape the cycle off of. Like it's not like the Beowulf cycle is a three part story. And it concludes with the death of Beowulf because he's been poisoned by the dragon that he fights. Much as Ripley dies in theatrical cut, literally giving birth to the alien, but it sufficiently is poisoned by the alien in that should have been the finality of the trilogy, but they somehow figured out to do a sequel. So why don't we move into conversation about the actual movie And I'm going to open with a conversation of just like the what Part of the science, which is.

11:22
Case
So what's up with them cloning Ripley in order to have an alien that they can take out of her? Like, what is going on with that thing since that doesn't make a goddamn lick of sense?

11:34
Sam
No, I, I kind of was like, okay. So like, my brain was like, okay, we're starting off strong with the lack of science here. But I was thinking like, maybe it's like Jurassic park, right? Like, it's like the, the little bit from the amber, right? Because she basically like they said they like froze over the thing that melted her. Like, I don't know. It doesn't make sense. But that's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking very small genetic strains from lead or, you know, whatever was in that particular area that she melted down into. It doesn't work.

12:15
Nik
Yeah, because I think if you think about it scientifically, it makes no sense. But then again, I mean, I think if you try and analyze the whole franchise through a scientific lens, it barely makes any sense whatsoever at all.

12:24
Case
But, but that said, most of where the science is like kind of rough is when we're actually talking about the alien itself's life cyc, which is supposed to be like foreign to us and not really make sense, you know, Like, I think that the first three movies are very like, you know, the sci fi are not big leaps. Like, aside from the fact that like space travel is like something that can be done in decades as opposed to in centuries, like, it doesn't really like push the envelope too much in terms of what can be done. Like weapons are pretty much consistent with what we would expect in terms of modern age. You know, they heavily rely on like cryogenic spence in order to make these like, long journeys.

13:03
Case
It is still much faster than it should be under, nor like what we understand would be with relativistic speeds. But it's still, you know, it, it's still like a degree of verisimilitude because it is so limited. And this movie goes way more into being like a sci fi adventure kind of movie as opposed to the kind of sci fi horror that is sort of, that uses the limitations of the science to make it more claustrophobic. This one is a bit more expansive. And part of that is the fact that we get the weird science that produces Ripley and the alien as a cloning situation, and then we get then Ripley as a superhuman for the duration of this movie, which is at least an interesting pivot. But it is a moving into More of like that.

13:50
Case
That superhero kind of adventure, science fiction kind of stuff. Because it's written by Joss Whedon.

13:55
Nik
Exactly. And also, I mean, I'm sure that more than anything else, I mean, because it's hard to actually find an explanation for how they were able to recover any kind of. Any of Ripley's cells. If you obviously connect this to what happened in Alien 3. But I think it's more than anything just down to the writers in the sense that Ripley was the flagship character and so they wanted to have her come back. I mean, I do know that at one point they actually wanted it to be Newtown and not to be Ripley, but I think the main reason was since she's the mainstay character. And I think it also allows to a certain extent, I mean, the explanation of itself. Like I said, there isn't really one.

14:32
Nik
But it's more, I think, a question also of character development going from where Ripley started out in the first movie and moving up to here. And there certainly has been quite a bit of character development in the way she behaves, even though now she is a clone of herself and is more akin to the creature that she was fighting for the longest time. It kind of reminds me a little bit of what happens to Sarah Connor in the Terminator movies, where there is such a huge split switch and character development evolution, if you will, from seeing Sarah in the first Terminator to then moving on through the franchise. I think it's kind of a similar parallel, if you will, when it comes especially these two characters in this. In this style film.

15:08
Case
Yeah, I like. I actually think that the third act of this movie is pretty strong overall. And I, I think that at that point Ripley is sort of like, realized everything about who she is and like, what she is in this movie. So I, I agree that the character development with. With her remains strong just because, like, Sigourney Weaver has so much control over. Over her part and is like, thinking critically about, like, the development of the character. There is a really strong character there. I have thoughts about how we could get around the whole, like, dumb science of this. Like, the science that they present is annoying to me because they are. Because they're using it to be like, look at our. Look at our science.

15:49
Case
Look at our science and our science fiction and look at some of the body horror that we're going to use in the science fiction by. By, you know, like, cutting her open and us like, watching the surgical removal of it. Like, I, I think it's there so that they can do those kind of scenes, but at the same time it is in your face such bad science. Like, and they almost called. Call attention to it because it's like, why does she have memories? And like they're like, oh, it must be some weird part about the genetic mixing with the aliens. They must have some way of retaining memory on a genetic level. Okay, that's cool. That's like trying to provide an explanation there.

16:20
Case
So it's like annoying that they even have to call attention to the fact that like, it doesn't make sense that Ripley is necessary at all for the cloning of the alien. Like, that's not what is going on here. Unless, unless there's more going on with the genetic splicing kind of stuff, which they don't. They speculate on. But isn't the central thesis of what was going on like, as part of the plan, you know, it's more of a byproduct that they weren't expecting, which you know, is like, man, you almost have the solution right in front of you.

16:51
Sam
I mean, I think in general one of the big flaws of this film actually goes back to that science. And actually this, I think is the problem in a lot of movies and the problem that I find in a lot of movies is that the villains are just not properly drawn out. And I don't really feel that I fully understand what either of the scientists quite want. And especially towards the end when it's just like, yeah, we're going to send these aliens to Earth. I don't know why he wants that. And so like, I think along the way there's a lot of questions not answered about why, why the aliens? Why Ripley, Why taking them back to Earth? You know, all of these things are never quite answered fully.

17:42
Sam
Like there's like little hints in the script that maybe, and if you want to like headcanon it, you possibly could like force it to be something. And one of the scientists seems a little more altruistic in terms of the idea of like, oh, there could be vaccines from this. There could be like ultrasonic. But there's no real. I don't know, there's not real follow through. Like, are they building Ripley because with her mixture of the alien gene, now they've built a human that is more resilient. Like, is that. But that's never quite expressed, right? So like there's this. The failure to kind of like really draw out the villain's intention. And I think that sometimes Movies fall flat because of that. Like, if I had known why, really, why her?

18:30
Sam
Not just like, we want Sigourney Weaver and of course we do because she's amazing. Right. But not just that, but give me a couple of lines as to why and then give me a couple reasons why you're so determined for this vessel to go back to home base. Like, it, like, to me it's like, is there a lab there? Is there? Like, why other than like, everyone watching this is going to be really crazy that it's going to Earth. Because Earth is where I keep my stuff. Like, why? What, like what. What's there? What. What is going on? Everyone else doesn't want to go to Earth. Everyone on the ship is like, that's a. So. But the villain never quite tells us. And so. But I, I found that, like, annoying.

19:18
Case
Yeah. Bringing up the Earth thing. It is interesting that they go out of their way to point out that Earth is. Is a. In dialogue in this all when the threat of them not far from the truth. I.

19:31
Sam
Hey, that's where I keep all my stuff.

19:33
Case
You leave my stuff al this setting where like, we have colony worlds. And at this point, it's now 200 years after the last Alien movie that we saw, which means that we should have tons of colony worlds out there. It's not like Earth is going to be like, it might be where humanity came from, but it's not like we are looking at all of humanity being wiped out. And that's assuming that, like, the aliens are sufficient to do so if just on their own. Like, you know, the fact that they are a dangerous threat that everyone constantly, like underestimates is. Doesn't change the fact that like, they are still ultimately going to have to deal with like an entirely populated planet.

20:09
Case
Like, it's, you know, it's not quite the same situation, especially considering that, like, it's a technologically advanced population that seems to have dealt with aliens before. They've talked about bug hunts in aliens. It's not just that these are the first xenomorphs that they came across. These are the most out there, like, terrifying ones that have like, all this, like, interesting potential to them. So, you know, sure. Like, they get to Earth, they could do a lot of damage. They might like, even like, really destabilize things on Earth. In the worst case scenario, they kill every human on the planet, which is obviously bad, but it's not the end of the human race.

20:45
Sam
Right.

20:45
Nik
I mean, I think if you look at it from The Weyland Yutani perspective. It could very much be, once again, the fact that they wanted Ripley to. Because of the fact that she was the one who had the most contact with the Xenomorphs and possibly then maybe understood them and could almost be seen as the bridge between the two species, if you will, and hence maybe seen as why, ideally she could be that kind of weapon, if you will. Because my idea is, since we also have military people on this in this movie as well, I think that the ultimate goal is to weaponize the aliens and use the Xenomorphs and use them as weapons and oh for sure. And hence they're grooming Ripley to be the perfect weapon. And I think that's the ultimate goal comes to our villains.

21:27
Nik
And once again, you know, it being Weyland Yutani in the background, as always, and then wanting as, as us humans are want to do when we see something nice and shiny, we look to. We first look how we can weaponize it. And that's very much the case when it comes to this. They've done it in Jurassic park recently, they're doing it here, and they've done it multiple times. I think ultimately that's why they wanted Ripley, because the fact that she was the one who had the most contact with you, if you will, and intimate contact, for that matter, when it came to this species. And so she would be seen as a viable candidate to possibly create, I don't know, you can even throw it out. Super soldiers, for example.

22:02
Case
Sure. But I would like them to say that in the text of the movie itself because I think we can hypothesize about that, but it does not seem to be what the actual goal is. I don't, I'm gonna be honest, like their goal in this movie is interesting because another big question I have just like just looking at this film is in the. All the whys that it elicits is why do they put the aliens together once they've hatched? Like, they have those individual pods for each person with each face hugger egg. And then they're all like kept in a cell together so that they're able to conspire and break open one. Very cool, very cool that they do like that. Like, yeah, we're going to kill, you know, we'll sacrifice one to like melt through and escape. Cool, cool idea.

22:44
Case
But why would you even do that in the first place? It just seems like, oh, well, we're just gonna allow the the noted intelligent hive mind alien creature that we've encountered to operate in that capacity together rather than having individual, you know, cages for them.

23:03
Nik
I think it's human hubris is what it is. In the sense it's like everybody else failed, we won't fail. And the concept is also, it could almost be seen as you're looking at a giant ant farm. And that's why you want them all together to see how they interact so you can study them and so you can take notes and see how they behave. Of course it's doomed to fail. My, my thing is the, you know, we've seen scientists in films throughout the years on screens both big and small, and there's always human hubris of, yeah, they fail, but we won't. And I think that's very much what dominates this particular situation and why they do what they do.

23:39
Sam
Yeah, I think also to add to that, it's also been 200 years and as far as is said in the text, like Ripley basically pretty much worked to make this creature practically extinct. So in terms of human interaction with the xenomorphs, that hasn't happened. Right. So I think hubris and maybe some lost knowledge and no one has been alive really who has dealt with them since. You may have some files and they talk about it, but I think we see that regularly even today, where we have historical documents describing things that are very similar to things that are happening right now. And people just out and out ignore it and be like, oh, well, we figure it out this time. So, yeah, I think it's a little.

24:29
Case
Bit, Let me throw out that I have a doylist and a Watsonian counterpoint to what you just said.

24:34
Sam
Yeah.

24:34
Case
All right. So from a Watsonian perspective, they are familiar with the, the meat, like the breeding cycle of the aliens. That's why they have the individual chambers for them, for the eggs that they have to like, go through that whole thing. Like, they don't seem to just like spontaneously come up with the idea that, like, oh, maybe they lay eggs and maybe they might have face suckers, because at this point, the only specimen that they start off with is the baby queen that was inside the Ripley 8 clone. So they have to understand at least, like, roughly how the life cycle works. So in universe, they seem to be pretty familiar with a lot of the stuff.

25:13
Case
Then from a writing perspective, what would be nice is if the scenario that Nick presented where they want to study them in the, like the alien ant farm situation, like, if they wanted to do that kind of perspective, like, let's see some scenes like that. Let's actually like, you know, witness them, you know, kind of a Jurassic World kind of scenario where like, let's actually see them being like taught to like, you know, engage a mission or something to that effect instead of like the very limited testing that we get in the movie that we actually like, watch.

25:45
Case
And I don't mean to be like coming out swinging like too hard because like, ultimately these are questions I have that allow for the movie to take place as opposed to ones that I think are, you know, deeply like held problems of the actual structure of the movie. These are just like ones where I'm like, huh, that's weird. But like, I get it. Like, we need to have be in a place where we have Ripley ultimately because that's like a requirement of this. And they kind of wrote themselves into the corner by having her die in the previous movie die and have her body burned up in molten lead. You know, there's no like bringing that one back. There's no like, actually were able to get to her in time.

26:22
Case
We restarted her heart or something like that situation and the aliens have to escape. Like, those are things that have to occur for this movie to take place. So that said, I like the fact that we are dealing with a different kind of group that is responding to them. I like the idea of the sort of like plucky space pirates as being like this new kind of dynamic to face the aliens, you know, the fact that it feels very Whedon esque, you know, like, I have a note that's just fucking Joss Whedon where it's just like, it's his style of characters right down to the fact that like this is Ripley the alien slayer. You know, like, Ripley is like the slightly superhuman, like, woman. And then like, here's the Scooby gang, just like in Buffy, or here's the Firefly crew.

27:08
Case
You know, like, people make a comparison of the character Jane from Firefly with which particular Ron Perlman's character.

27:15
Sam
Oh, yeah.

27:17
Case
In this one, like, or yeah. And Winona Ryder as, you know, comparable in certain regards to like, to what's her face river in Firefly. So, you know, it's just like there's a lot of like, Joss Whedon esque characteristics about this movie. And, you know, it's an interesting one. I, I so Joss Whedon is a creator that has A complicated media history for. For people just because he. He wrote a bunch of works that are considered, like, really important to a lot of people, especially like, in like, the dearth of. Of media that we're getting in the 90s and early 2000s that like, really dealt with, like, strong female characters that so, like, Buffy the Vampire Slayer is important for a lot of people. It was important for me coming into this movie and not really liking this movie that much. I.

28:02
Case
I tried, I swear to God. And we'll talk about, like, things that I like when I really tried to like, to really get into this movie because I was so into the Alien movies. But like, I, I will say that when my first impression was, I don't like this, and then when my third impression was like, no, I was right the first time, I don't really like this movie. I. I remember reading interviews with Joss Whedon where he tried to distance himself from this movie because he felt that, like, creative, you know, like the studio, like, made too many mandates and he. His stuff was like, edited too much and he's like, annoyed that about it all. I'm like, no, but like, it's still the thumbprint of like, all the Joss Whedon kind of stuff is still in this movie.

28:39
Case
And like, there's a disconnect from the movie that, like, that he made and from what the rest of the franchise kind of had been up until this point. Like, it's a little bit more out there. It. You know, like the. Again, the various militudes, like a little bit dialed back. It's more of a science adventure kind of thing. And really it leans into the slasher movie ness that the Alien franchise has, like, in some ways really good ways. Like, it, like, some of the kills are very creative and I find that kind of amusing, but it definitely feels much more Friday the 13th. Like, what was it? Jason X, the. The one where he's in space.

29:12
Case
Like, it feels more akin to that than the earlier ones, which are, yes, like, effectively there's an Aliens, you know, serial killer on the loose kind of thing. Like the first movie is. Is that. But everything is ratcheted back so much like you're in this, like, very, like, lived in universe that it doesn't feel that way. And this movie just, you know, feels a bit more like, campy. But again, like, there's like, good points going on with the movie. I. I do enjoy how Alien ness. This movie, like, kind of feels or like alien styled. This movie feels like the. The world that they Live in. Like the technological, like leap forwards have not gone very far aside from the cloning stuff, which, you know, we don't really know like how advanced the cloning was in the previous movies either.

29:56
Case
You know, like everything, it's like crates, it's, you know, very. It's pipes, it's dirty. You know, everything kind of sucks. Like, it's not a world that I'm like, excited to like, live in.

30:08
Sam
Right. Yeah. I mean the shots are beautiful in this film. You know, there's some really, you know, just from camera work perspective, there's really stuff like that. And like, honestly, I mean, it's older CGI and you know, I'm normally a practical effects kind of girl, but the alien swimming does still look cool. Like, it still looks pretty cool. It's pretty a rad scene except for the fact that I don't think human anatomy has changed that much and people are down underneath that water for a little too long. But like, we definitely could not hold our breath during that scene. I thought about like rewinding it and seeing if I could, like, how long could I be underwater?

30:48
Case
I had the same thought because like, I, I like when the alien showed up and they were still underwater, I was like, oh, wait, hold on. I should, I should be checking to see how long one could hold their breath because. I agree completely.

31:01
Sam
I think it's like a 12 minute long scene. There's no, there's no way. There's like one tribe, one place that can hold their like, have enough lung capacity for that. The of humankind. We cannot do that.

31:13
Case
Yeah, but I totally agree with you. The aliens in the water scene is like one of the really cool moments in this movie. And, and it's a unique thing that we hadn't, like, we got the alien rising up out of the water in Aliens, but we hadn't really seen them like move in the water because like, it's the first movie that really had the opportunity to do like decent CGI with the alien. You know, like the alien in Alien 3 like had some CGI in there, but like, the less shown, the better for that movie. Meanwhile, this one we get. Yeah, it looks actually pretty good. I, I like the, you know, I mentioned, like, it's campier, but I do like the kills in this movie and the set pieces with the aliens.

31:48
Case
Like, I like the aliens killing the one just to be able to get loose. Like, I think that's cool as a sequence. I just wish they explained why they're all in the same room together in the first place. And that could because they're running an experiment. Like they just don't say it in the movie. I like when the alien figures out the, like, what is it? The, the liquid oxygen or liquid nitrogen.

32:10
Nik
Yeah, nitrogen.

32:11
Case
Yeah, yeah. Like that's a pretty cool sequence there, like where the alien first off figures it out that's what the button does. And then when they get loose, they like, you know, come around and like freeze the guy. I thought that was a pretty cool sequence. It does feel very camp, if you get what I mean though. Like in terms of just like, oh yeah, his whole body like breaks up and everything. And like, you know, it's, you know, aggressively non bloody violence and I think, you know, it's, I'm here for it. It just does feel like a different genre than the previous three movies.

32:43
Nik
And I think once again that's also to be chalked up because the fact you have a different director who was also, you know, doing very different things compared to, you know, David Fincher or Ridley Scott or Cameron for that matter. Because if you go and look and see what De Janeir did before this, he did these very sort of weird black comedy, spacey sci fi kind of things, but had nothing to really do with Alien. I mean, he did stuff like Delicatessen, which I strongly recommend because it's a very curious concept. It is a little bit gory and a little bit out there, but those. He'd come off two movies like that one, and this was only his third film. And as I said before, very different stylistically compared to his predecessors on the franchise.

33:25
Nik
So, you know, as we mentioned earlier, I think you're obviously going to get a movie that's very visually different when it comes time. Unless you have say the same writer or the same people who were there for the previous movies, you're going to get something completely different. You're going to have some of the same beats like the kills and you know, certain things you have to have like your heroine, you have to have your Android, you have to have these kind of things. But everything else is going to obviously change because of the fact that you literally have a whole different group of people working on the movie. It's like you fire a coach, a new coach comes on, they're going to use a completely different system compared to what you had before.

33:58
Case
Yeah, and it's not like the Alien franchise is unfamiliar with pivoting genres. Like obviously the pivot from like you know, Slasher in space that the first one was to, you know, a bigger action movie that the second one was, is. Is a thing that the franchise is known for it. Like I said, there is just a bit of a. A. A pivot in terms of, like. Like I said, the verisimilitude is the area where it, like, kind of changes up. That's the only thing that I find strange about that part of it. Can.

34:24
Case
Let's pivot to talking about the cast as a whole, because I think this sort of highlights some of the differences, which is that we do have, like, a crew that are not all soldiers or, you know, instead of, like, the first movies being like, well, these are all, like, the space truckers that are on it, and it's like just the crew of the ship. And then the second one was, like, a bunch of marines, and the third one are all prisoners. Like, this is a group of space pirates. And, like, that's kind of a cool, like, vibe there. It is. You know, if you say, like, oh, it's. Think it's a movie about space pirates and by Joss Whedon, people are like, oh, okay, cool. So we're talking about Serenity, and it's like, no, we're not.

34:56
Case
Like, you know, we're talking about a different movie. And that, I think, is, like, one of the spots where I kind of wish that we spent more time with them because we. We have some of the same kind of plays in this movie. Like, Michael Wincott is arguably, like, one of the more famous people in the group playing the captain, Frank Elgin. You know, I think for him, like, immediately my head goes to the crowd where he's, like, the main villain in that movie, and he's supposed to be same way as, like, the lead. What is it? Dallas in the first movie where it's like, well, that's the biggest star, and, like, that's supposed to be the hero group, you know, hero of the group. And then, like, it's actually the bait and switch that it's actually Ripley.

35:32
Case
You know, I feel like we don't get enough of that in this movie, but it's, like, fun to see him. Ron Perlman, I always love I. Another character who, like, he's extremely abrasive at the start, and we're supposed to warm up to him by the end of the movie. That I would have preferred, like, a little bit more time with him to. To be happy with him as a character. You know, he's, like, aggressively abrasive in this movie. Winona Ryder, I find so distracting in this movie. Like she's like too famous for the part she's playing if that, you know, like she, like, she stands out so much because it's Winona Ryder and that when. Then it's like, oh, well, of course, because she's the Android that.

36:12
Case
But like the whole surprise of her being the special in this group is sort of like Lost, because she is without a doubt the most famous person in the cast.

36:21
Nik
Yeah, I mean, I, I agree. I think it would be kind of cool had we had me more of a backstory. Maybe got to spend more time with this group of people. I mean, I agree with you, Kate. I mean, I think the fact that the casting choices were great. I mean, these are all people we love, especially when it comes to this group and a couple of others. You know, I'm sure we'll probably talk about as well. You know, Brad Dorif, who's another actor that I absolutely adore and I'm so glad he was on this film. But I think at the end of the day, I mean, they were. They were supposed to be seen as, yes, our plucky group, if you will. But the same time, I think they also wanted to play the role of just cannon fodder for the.

36:53
Nik
For the xenomorphs, as in, we're going to need a group of people to get killed off as we progress and we're going to be left with a smaller and smaller group. And to be honest, I didn't really care about these people because I'm like, I just was not. I mean, I just was not cool with them, if you will. I mean, it's just the way they behave and what have you and such. But I didn't find Winona Rider as distracting. It was interesting moving on when it came to another Synthetic because it's another thing that you kind of have to have when it comes to the Alien franchise. You know, you'd had Bishop prior to this. Now you have a call. And I think, by and large, I mean, yes, she was probably the biggest name in this next to Polisigourney Weaver.

37:34
Nik
The way she played the character. I enjoyed her performance. And I think that by and large, I mean it's. It sold the idea of her being a synthetic once again, coming off of the Synthetics we'd see prior to this especially, you know, my all time favorite. Sure. A lot of fans the. The franchise. Bishop. So it was. This was a nice, if you will, passing of the torch to. To the next Synthetic, if you will.

37:56
Case
Yeah. I just kind of wish that she had been better presented as the main character or. Or at least as, like, the Deuteragonist earlier in the movie, as opposed to just it. Again, it's just one where I feel like she's such a big star that you realize that she's going to be important, but they haven't, like, identified her as being the important one necessarily. I don't know. It's. It's gonna go. It's gonna go along when we get to pitch territories. I guess the. The thing I'm getting at here.

38:24
Sam
Yeah, I mean, I. I agree also with Nick that I. I didn't. So I think one of the thing that was so brilliant about Aliens in terms of character work is that they did such a good job really letting you get to know those soldiers in a very short amount of time in a way that was, like, you kind of understood kind of who they were. And I think with the pirates, this is, you know, kind of trying to recapture that magic in a way. But I think that a lot of times it falls flat. Like that first scene where, like, Ron Perlman throws his knives at Winona Ryder and the gentleman in the wheelchair, like, it just. They don't actually see.

39:09
Sam
Like, it just felt weird because then in a few scenes later, they all felt cool with each other, and it didn't feel like they were totally cool. Like, so a lot of the, like, friendship moment dialogue stuff was actually, like, awkward and stilted. And I didn't really get this idea that they were actually like, a real crew or even cohesive to the point that, like, even though the third act is very good, I was kind of like, is this just trauma bonding? Like, I didn't expect them to fight so hard for each other, like, not even because of humanity. It's just. I just didn't think that the crew was that much of a crew to begin with. And so, like, I don't think that the first half of this movie really sold that to me.

39:55
Sam
I thought there was a lot more tension between all of them than, you know.

40:01
Nik
I agree. I think being pirates, I mean, granted, we have seen pirate groups having each other's backs, but at the same time, I think here very much is a case of there is no honor among thieves to where, you know, if. If people start, you might have a member in the members of the crew that you're particularly more tight with, if you will, but others that you're just there on sufferance. And even if they die or if you have to throw them under the bus so you can make a bigger score, so be it. And I think that's very much the case when it comes to the dynamic within this group. Just like a dysfunctional family or criminals. That's because that's what they are at the end of day.

40:35
Nik
Is someone maybe going to have closer dynamics and others are going to be just like, yeah, I've got to work with this dude, but if he dies, I don't care. I'm not going to cry over him.

40:42
Case
Yeah, I like, I think I like the idea of what this crew represents more than the actual depiction of them. You know, it's one where I get what they're trying to do with all of them. And ultimately like, even like there were characters that I did rather like when I like kind of homed in on them. Like Christy, the first mate, I think is really cool. Like he's, he seems like very much like a stand up hero and sacrifices himself ultimately to save Dom, the paraplegic character. So like there are things to like in this group and like I like the idea of them as like a different type of group that the alien is now confronting.

41:20
Case
But you know, like I said, I think that like, while I really like Ron Perlman, I think that his character is extremely abrasive when we're first introduced to them. And then like they don't do the work to really make it that you like him by the end, but you're supposed to, you know, according to.

41:36
Nik
The movie, I mean, he's more similar to the character that he played in Blade 2.

41:41
Case
Yeah. So maybe that was just his era right there.

41:45
Nik
Probably. Yeah. Because he's playing, he was playing the unlikable school bully for a long time.

41:49
Case
Yeah. So that's fair. Why don't we move on to talking about the aliens themselves? We talked about the, some of the kills already and we talked about the swimming sequence. I thought those were really cool. I think that in terms of the drones, they do some good sequences with them. Like they show how smart they are when they escape. Like those are all pretty cool. But we haven't, they're not doing anything that's like wildly outside of what we've seen before in an Alien movie. The. Likewise, the alien queen we see while she creates a bunch of drones initially and then develops live birth, which they're like, oh, now she's perfect. She doesn't need a host.

42:24
Case
And I'm like, this seems like it's an, I mean not that it's, not that the previous system made sense necessarily, but it, you know, was great for mass production of shock troops versus what looks like an extremely painful pregnancy and birth.

42:38
Sam
Yeah.

42:39
Case
Doesn't seem like an upgrade.

42:39
Sam
Seems in a lot of pain. No. Seems like a really bad deal for the alien, honestly.

42:46
Case
Yeah, yeah.

42:46
Sam
No epidural either.

42:48
Nik
I mean, I think. Yeah, because I agree. I mean, you can tell that the alien queen is in tons of pain. And I think it's also once again trying to show you the advantages and the disadvantages of when you come to cross breeding two species which are probably not necessarily crossbreed in the case of, you know, Ripley possibly losing her humanity a little bit and becoming more like a xenomorph and the alien queen having those genes, if you will, becoming more human and thus suffering the pain that humans would suffer when it comes to the female women, if you will, is just that is that there is that trade off, if you will, that negative trade off where you will lose something when you come to crossbreeding these two species that are so diversely different to begin with.

43:34
Case
Yeah, man. It's just one where I feel like that comparison wasn't needed because we've already had it made in aliens. When Ripley threatens the eggs and we see that the queen is really concerned about her children. I think that we already established that the queen has this motherly relationship that was essential thesis of the previous one and this one. It's, it's cool. I, like, I do want to be very clear, like I think that the newborn is a cool concept. I, I, I, I think it looks appropriately freaky. I think that it is dangerous in an interesting way that is different than all the aliens that we've seen so far. I'm just saying that I, I think that the mother comparison, we're just continuing it as opposed to it being a new concept here. And I don't mind it.

44:20
Case
I, I think that like it being a thing. It's just interesting that they described as perfect because it seems like I said, like a downgrade. It seems like, oh, look at how your human blood has infected it. It used to be perfect and now it is stuck. It is trapped in this all. Or to have the queen have some sort of deeper understanding that comes from the fact that she gave live birth as opposed to laying eggs, change who she is, but instead she just gets murdered by her child. So I think that we lose out on at least some sort of interesting thematic elements that could have come from it all. But I like the newborn. I think. Think that's what I wanted to get to like. I think it looks weird in a really good way.

45:01
Nik
I. I very much agree. And I. I love the design of the newborn, for sure. And also the interactions that it has with, first off with its mother and then with Ripley herself. I mean, I agree with you, Case. The concept of motherhood has very much been an ongoing theme throughout the franchise. But then again, sexuality has very much been an ongoing theme throughout the. Throughout the franchise as well. But, yeah, I thought it was a very original design. I saw the first design they had for it looked even weirder, and I'm kind of glad they cleaned that up. But by and large, justice, this was, I think, was a great addition to the franchise, especially just how more human the newborn looks compared to the other xenomorphs.

45:44
Case
Right. You know, like, they've always made this whole thing about how the xenomorphs take on the. The characteristics of the. The things that it. It impregnates, you know, like the whole weird reproductive cycle on it. That's why they have mouths that are so similar to ours, like, that it is already taking on those features. That's why, like, their hands are like. Like they. They are five fingers. They're just, like, weirdly, like, stitched together because of their own, like, strange carapace kind of thing. So accentuating that. That detail with this is, I think, cool. And I think it does a good job of illustrating that it has, like, certain weaknesses that the. The regular xenomorph doesn' the hard carapace on the outside, so it's vulnerable when we get to the end of the movie.

46:24
Case
Side note, again, another one of those areas where it's like, science doesn't really work that way. Like, explosive decompression doesn't really work that way in terms of, like, sucking him out. But you know what, again, is. That is one where I'm like, I'm. It's fine. It's just the, like, the McGuffin way that they killed the thing. Like. Like, it's fine. I'm not trying. I'm not trying to yuck the yums when it's just, like, a necessary evil. I'm just. Just saying that this movie is too just whedney.

46:49
Sam
Yeah.

46:51
Case
And it does. And not alien y enough in that regard. But I do. I do really like the third act, and I do really like the confrontation with. With the newborn. And I think that the newborn being, you know, confused and, like, Weirdly affectionate and destructive at the same time is kind of a cool element to it all. Like, I don't know. Sam, what do you think of the newborn?

47:12
Sam
It was gross. That's what I think. It was gross. I was grossed out. So it was unnecessary. And I get why you guys think it's cool, but it was gross. And I didn't need the reverse and then the playback. I didn't need that. I need that. It was disgusting. I was grossed out. It was gross. That's what I thought.

47:32
Case
Okay, that is fair. So do either of you have things that you want to bring up before we take a break? Any like, major points about the movie that you want to address?

47:43
Nik
The only thing I wanted to add to what you were saying there case, about the newborn being both almost nurturing and destructive at the same time thing wasn't. It was a. Was a cool concept to have because the fact that this is literally a newborn. So it's also trying to figure itself out and its feelings, if you will, if we can, you know, and trying to sort of navigate this world, it's just come into. So I appreciate that. You know, it's not immediately hell bent on doing one thing or another. It's mind is all over the place because the fact that probably it's also asking itself why am I. And secondly, there's also this concept of trying to navigate its own world as, as a baby would.

48:26
Case
Yeah, yeah. Sam, did you have anything that you wanted to bring up about the movie?

48:31
Sam
No, no, I think everything will be discussed in pitches. I mean, I think like, in general, it's not the worst movie I've watched for this podcast. So I guess it's saying something. But yeah, I wasn't scared by it. And that's weird because for an Alien movie I should be scared, but I wasn't. Listen.

48:52
Case
Yeah, it's certainly the least horror focused of at least the original four, which is impressive considering the second one is more of an action movie than a horror movie. But yeah, this one is again, the science adventure kind of nature of it kind of takes hold.

49:07
Sam
Yeah. And I'll say until Case makes me watch more or this podcast makes me watch more Alien movies, I'm gonna certify this as the least scary of the four I've seen so far. It's Sam Stamp of least scary. The scaredy catboost camp of. You'd probably be able to get through this if you're a coward like Me.

49:30
Case
You know what? That's entirely fair. And on that note, we should take a break. And when we come back, we are going to discuss what could have been done at time of production to make this a stronger movie. But for now. All right, Josue, let's go through our new comic day stack. We have a lot to review.

49:46
Sam
I know.

49:47
Case
Maybe we've gone too far. Let's see. Marvel, of course. Horse. Dc. I got Image. Dark Horse, Black Mask.

49:55
Sam
Boom.

49:56
Case
Idw. Aftershock. Vault, of course. Mad Cave, Oni, Valiant, Scout, Magma, Behemoth. Wow, that's a lot.

50:07
Sam
Oh.

50:07
Case
All we need now is a name for our show. We need a name for a show about reviewing comic books every week. Something clever, but not too clever, like a pun. It's kind of cheesy. Yeah, it's something that seems funny at first, but we might regret later on as an impulsive decision. A few dozen episodes in. Yeah, we'll think of something. Join Keith and Osway for we have Issues, A weekly show reviewing almost every new comic released each week, available on Geek Elite Media and wherever you listen to your podcasts. And we're back. All right, so, Nick, we. We have a guideline and a rule for this portion of the episode. The guideline is that we are trying to discuss the movie realistically at the time of production.

50:49
Case
So, like, things like wild recastings, you know, we can't say no Sigourney Weaver, if she's the reason this movie got made, for example, and if. Even if she's not the reason, she was too big of a get that, like, they. They wanted her because she's the linchpin for the franchise. So we. We can't, like, just wildly speculate, like, you know, completely impossible situations. Like, the script is written by Jossweed. So this is you as a producer, maybe as an editor, you know, something to that effect, being able to, you know, pitch like, you know, some rewrites, some reshoots, some re edits. But were. We're not trying to go, like, completely off the rails into the impossible territory here. So that's the guideline then. The rule is that I am not allowed to go before Sam.

51:30
Case
So you are a guest and you are able to then pick if you want to go first or if Sam goes first or. And if Sam goes first, then I can go after her. And. And as such, I'm just not allowed to go before Sam. Him is the only hard role. So, like I said, you're our guest. Who would you like to take the first Swing at this movie.

51:47
Nik
I'll let Sam take first one at this one.

51:51
Sam
Fine. Because mine's gonna be short and sweet. So I. For me, I feel like my biggest thing is I just. We need to. This movie really needs to clean up a lot of the questions of the motive of everything. Right. There's a lot of things that we can guess are the motives, making weapons, vaccines, that kind of thing, but we don't really like, get that. And. And also why Earth? I need those to all be answered so that I can actually like make this into like a film that. Because honestly, at some point towards the end, I just feel like it's just a madman. A mat. Like, again, this is like the same thing with like the Jurassic park movies. It's like, if you know that dinosaurs can't be controlled, why the fuck are you building a theme park?

52:42
Sam
Like, I don't understand, like, I cannot wrap my mind because I am a coward and naturally very careful person. I can't understand why people won't see the pitfalls of this. So I do think that up top, we need to make it more clear that the main point is actually making a Ripley. Like, like making a state of the art soldier out of like someone like Ripley. So in order to basically create these clones, we still have to have more aliens to then harvest to kind of do that. So we need to make that very clear right up top. Like, we need to kind of really go through that kind of okay with some of the horror, like disfigurement stuff. Like, I thought that the scene where Ripley runs into her previous experiments, the experiments that came before her, was pretty poignant.

53:41
Sam
And I think also in the zeitgeist at that moment, cloning was kind of in the like, is it ethical? Kind of thing. In 1997. That was a big question. Still is. So I'm kind of fine with that because I like. One of the things that I do like about the Alien films, even though I'm afraid of them, is they're constantly asking these questions that I think good sci fi asks, right, Is like, should we be doing it? Like, just because we can, should we? And so I think maybe kind of like focusing more on that. Have the pirates scenes be more fun. They can still be a little treacherous, but at least let us feel like they're not all dicks that way when they start dying. Because that's the thing. They're essentially fodder for the movie. We're gonna have loss.

54:32
Sam
And in order for us to care, even if they're needling each other, even if they're kind of like, whatever, we want to like them. Ron Perlman at least needs to be more funny if he's going to be the bully. He at least has to have funnier lines as the bully. He needs to be a funnier guy, and other people need to laugh at the things that he does so that we know that the team in itself, they may not best friends, but that they genuinely can stand each other. And they've gone through a bunch of stuff together. I mean, even, you know, the scene with the coffee where Winona Ryder's asking him what he poured into it? He says he put mortar for color. Maybe have them talk about a previous job.

55:22
Sam
Maybe have them talk about how weird this job is, how weird the scientists are. Like, give us an. Like, give us an inkling that they kind of have a feeling that this is not really, like, a job's a job, but this is kind of going south for them already. And then maybe have wonder writer's character kind of start kind of bringing up her conscientious objections to this, you know, the possibility of what's happening. Like, we don't know what these scientists are doing. And I bet it's really dangerous. And people be like, hey, stop. Like, it's. You know, just to give us, like, a little hint of, like, what she is. And a little, like. Because I feel like her. Like her reveal, even when she was just like.

56:11
Sam
Like the person who was trying to, like, kill Ripley because she believed that she was this evil experiment, which she kind of is, you know, kind of felt a little more sudden than I wanted. I felt like I would have liked a little bit of a clue in there. And also, just because then we know that she kind of trusts some of her. It doesn't have to be Ron Permley. It could be anyone that she kind of. She could say it to. The person in the wheelchair whose name I never remember. I'm sorry, guys. Character names are flying over me. And so I just wanted a little more up top to kind of ground me. Like, I felt like I was, like, flying in blind in this film.

56:47
Sam
And there wasn't enough built in the beginning of these characters to kind of, like, see me through everything. And then if we could establish that there is a military base outpost on Earth, which is where these specimens and where all these experiments are supposed to go, then we understand the urgency of at least delivering these samples to Earth, which is why the scientist is so dead set on the fact that it's going to go.

57:20
Nik
Right?

57:20
Sam
It's a shithole. Most people are not there anymore. It's the perfect place to run secret experiments. It's the perfect place to house, you know, secret op kind of operation to build a whole army of super Ripley soldiers that are half alien, half human, you know, and be able to have the alien reproduce without a host so that you can then blend those two creatures together to then train them to work with the army. Like, that is the perfect place to go. So I think that's how we'd fix it and just kind of keep most of it, most of the beats the same because, again, we have some really cool stuff. I maybe make the water scene a little shorter or at least give places where people can come up and ask for air. That really bothered me.

58:11
Sam
Just, like, just come up, like, and then go back down, knowing that there was no out. Just so I think also that. I think that would actually add to the tension, right? Like, if you come up for air because you're frantically, like, needing to get that air, but then there is no actual out, so you have to dive back in to where the aliens are. I actually think that scene would be more dynamic and. And that scene's already really cool. It's really nicely done. I love that they make the aliens kind of move like crocodiles, you know, like that, like, serpentine kind of, like move to it. So that's really cool. So I would keep it for sure, but I would definitely give breaths. And I'm fine with the way it ended, so I would.

58:55
Sam
Basically, it's just more about fixing the first beats and fixing some of the characters so that I care and so that, you know, I'm not even going to fix the cloning. I'm going to leave the bad science the way that is. I'm going to assume that this is so far into the future, I just can't understand it. I'm going to leave it. It's the.

59:13
Nik
The.

59:14
Sam
The DNA came out of lead. They couldn't separate it because it was all leaden. So they had to make a hybrid Ripley, and that's what gave them idea to make a super soldier. They needed more aliens to do that. So, yes, that's my pitch.

59:31
Case
Yeah, there's a lot similar to how I would be approaching this one. But, yeah, I. I think talking about the breaths thing, just because I. I feel like we could really, like, pace that one out. Really cool is, like, it seems that the water is rising during this whole period, or at least, like, when they first, like, Approach it. So it'd be easy to have, like, grates that they could, like, breathe through at first. And then the water, like, rises up to be, like, over the great level. And then, you know, so that they. They couldn't get up and, like, fully, like, rise up enough to take a breath. But they could, like, get up enough, or they could get up enough to take a breath at first, but they couldn't, like, get out through those, like, kind of spaces.

01:00:04
Case
And then as the water rises, that they lose out on that, and then that allows for the tension to, like, get higher and higher, that they have to get to their destination.

01:00:11
Sam
Yeah. And as they're doing it, have them bang on the grates. Have them bang on, like, certain parts. Have them, like, really searching. Because I think you're going to have a nice. I think that's going to build the tension. Right. I feel like in a lot of this movie, it's missing some of the tension that you had. I speak as a person who feels existential dread very easily. And sometimes for me, like, even horror movies where I'm just waiting, like, suspense. Suspense kills me. Like, knowing that the threat is somewhere behind the corner, that usually kills me. And that was missing for me in this film. So I feel like. Like that would have upped the ante for me, you know, especially since Ripley is so super.

01:00:54
Sam
Maybe that's part of the reason why this movie was less scary because she was no longer just a human being. Like, she, like, she had, like, the DNA mixed it. So it just felt like, Ripley will take care of it. Like, she was a superhero in this one.

01:01:09
Case
She was Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

01:01:11
Sam
Right. And so it's like kind of like, well, don't worry, she's going to take care of it. So I think in lieu of that, we just need to have a bunch of physical barriers right. Where they're. They're trying to escape and then they're not, and they're put in these impossible positions. I think that would have really helped out.

01:01:29
Case
Yeah, yeah. I mean, like I said, I don't want to, like, say too much more because it's so similar to what I was kind of thinking. Nick, do you want to go next, or do you want me to take the next swing?

01:01:39
Nik
I'll take it. No problem. I mean, my one question is because since, you know, obviously I'm not new to this, are we allowed to eliminate characters?

01:01:46
Case
Yeah, yeah. By all means.

01:01:47
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

01:01:48
Nik
I would literally get rid of the space pirates, period. I mean, I think. I think that I think would have made more to what. What Sam was saying earlier on, maybe postulated more the question of science versus the military and done more of that and just had the scientists, Ripley and possibly Call, AKA Winona, Riders character. Because I think that would have made one. It would have made it even more of a tighter space, a smaller group of people. And the fact that you maybe have the military and as Sam was also mentioning, really sort of spell out, if you will, what their agenda is compared to what the scientists are trying to do. Because you do get various points of view of the scientists.

01:02:27
Nik
I mean, some, I think purely are out there for research in order to advance cures and what have you. You know, the other that may be a bit more enamored with the perfection of the xenomorph. But I think it would have been kind of cool if you had. You just had Ripley, the scientists, and a bigger presence of the military and made it more about that. And the questions of is it right to militarize something for our defense, or should we just, you know, study creatures in order to benefit us without turning them into weapons? So I think that would have been. That would have been kind of cool. And I agree. I think it would be kind of nice if we had maybe be cutbacks of communication between this space station and Earth, saying, you know, what's your progress? What are you doing?

01:03:11
Nik
And so on and so forth. Or heck, even maybe have had a scene at the beginning of the movie if you were showing us how, you know, Ripley's DNA was. Was essentially extrapolated. And that would, I think, would have been. Would have been made more people happier, if you will. It's like, how the hell is she still alive?

01:03:29
Case
She.

01:03:29
Nik
She just melted.

01:03:30
Case
Did.

01:03:30
Nik
So I think that is what I would have done. I would have made it more of a claustrophobic situation where these guys are literally trapped on this space station. And it's like scientists and the military and the whole Earth thing. I probably wouldn't have them coming to Earth, but I suppose it would have to. Either you do a super dramatic thing where everybody dies and that's the end of it, and so the alien threat is vanquished for good and that's it. Or you do have, you know, a pod or something where Ripley ultimately does arrive on the other side. I know that originally Whedon, as I mentioned earlier, had written a script where it was Newt. And part of me is.

01:04:11
Nik
Would kind of like to have seen that because that would have been something, I think, fascinating to see, almost a carrying on of the torch from Ripley to Newt and the whole, you know, mother to daughter, if you will, because that strong mother daughter relationship that Ripley and Newt had. I think it would have been a cool concept had the. The original script that was. That was written by Whedon was trashed and apparently that made him incredibly angry. I think that would have been. That would have been a. A cool thing to see as a cool concept. Also. The other thing I was wondering about is I certainly. Because I know there were quite a few directors attached to this and they all said no because, like, why do we want to do another Alien movie?

01:04:49
Nik
Part of me is like, I so wonder what Danny Boyle would have done with this, because he was the first director they reached out to.

01:04:55
Case
Oh, yeah, that would be really interesting. Like, I imagine it would feel a bit more like 28 days later. Yes.

01:05:02
Nik
That's why I think. I think would have been so cool had Danny Boyle, you know, officially said yes. But, yeah, he was the first guy they went to. I know they also went to Peter Jackson. That would have been a bit strange. I think maybe he would have been something more akin to his early horror films, maybe. But I think part of me is like, wishing that we could have seen Danny Boyle direct an Alien.

01:05:20
Case
Oh, yeah, that would be really cool. Yeah. Now. Now I'm picturing that, like, very claustrophobic, like when you were first talking about it and, like, removing the space pirates. Like, I started to picture, like, a found footage kind of movie. Like, like watching most of it from, like, security cameras and things like that.

01:05:34
Nik
Like a wreck kind of thing would have been nice.

01:05:35
Case
Yeah, but. But even. But just like really exploring, like, how claustrophobic and scary it could all be. I mean, it is doing sort of the same thing that Alien 1 and 3 did in that regard, but at the same time, like, that's a really winning formula, and I do really like that. So there. There's that. Oh, man, I. Yeah, no, I enjoy that. Okay, so for mine, like I said, there is some similarities to Sam and I. I do like the. The. The drawing out of, like, the actual alien experimentation on this all. But the thing that I kept coming back to was that the first act is focused, people. The first act is focused on, you know, Ripley 8. And I. I think that the. The first act should be focused on the space pirates. We should spend the movie with them.

01:06:23
Case
And it should have, like, Winona Ryder set up as being, like, the main character in this group. Like, not the leader of their group, but, like, the main character. That, like, the audience viewpoint character so that it's not weird that it's Winona Ryder, you know, she's so famous in this movie that, like, I think we might as well just like, lean into it. Like, yeah, like, yeah, we're following Winona Ryder. They go on this whole adventure. They like, you know, we could see them stealing the. The frozen bodies or like, doing like, whatever kind of run to get them. So we could have like a cool action sequence with them all and really kind of like, not focus on the fact that this is an alien movie up front. You know, focus on this group here and like, set them up and.

01:07:00
Case
And why they're so interesting and cool. And then you know, you could give a little bit more Runway for, like, the characters who are, like, kind of annoying to like, seem more human and to seem more like a part of a team and, like, really like, link this group up together, you know. Then they get to the space station. Side note, we didn't talk about how like, Star wars ass opening the shot is of like, their. That vessel, like, flying into frame and just being so goddamn long. But it, you know, it's. It works in terms of, like, having a big space that they can run around and for the aliens to chase them in so they. They arrive to drop off the. The cryogenically frozen people. When they arrive, I think the experiment should be underway.

01:07:35
Case
I think that the first time we see Ripley should be them going into, like, the basketball scene. And like that. It's like, holy shit. All of a sudden Ripley's there. Why is she here? Isn't she dead? Like, shouldn't that be a question that we're all asking ourselves when we first are introduced to her? And she shouldn't necessarily know the answers herself. What I think should be the deal is that they're running this experiment and they've been trying to clone the aliens and they finally have given up on cloning the aliens necessarily, and now they're going to try to, like, breed them. And that's why they bring in the bodies. But they've been cloning the alien successfully up until this point. Point. But the process is one where they're not just cloning Ripley and then, like, taking the alien out of her.

01:08:14
Case
Like, that doesn't make any actual sense. But what does make sense is that the aliens and merge their DNA with. With whatever their host is. And so the DNA samples they have. What I would say is that they can't figure out where Ripley starts and where the alien ends. And so They've been making clones of all different points on the map in between, trying to figure out how to create the alien, how. And, like, they keep on creating Ripley's by accident and then, like, more aliens. And that's why we have all these iterations of it. I think eight's probably too low. I think it should probably be a higher number for, like, how many times they've attempted recreating Ripley and then go from there with, this is why they have, like, I. I do kind of like the idea of an alien ant farm.

01:08:53
Case
I. Of the. Of the aliens running experiments and running tests, like, you know, running missions for. For this, like, military group. I think that would help set up one. I think the ship is huge. We could afford to have, like, a lot of aliens, and then we could have some cool action sequences where they kill a bunch of aliens. Because I think they said there's, like, 12 aliens in this, and, you know, we could do like, 30. Like, I don't think that would be too much. It's a big ship. Like, you know, we don't necessarily need, like, the automated turrets, but we do, like, have cool guns and stuff that these guys have. Like, they. They bring all the. You know, I enjoy that. The ways that they sneak their guns on, especially the wheelchair one.

01:09:28
Case
Like, I think that's a really cool gun, like, when he, like, snaps it together. But, you know, like, I. I think that the. The first half of the movie, roughly, is where we need to spend some more time with the experiment that they're running, set up. Why the aliens are in a position where they're able to, like, conspire and break out. Like, if they've, you know, if they've been working with them for a while and they've had them successfully in captivity for a while, it makes more sense. As opposed to. As soon as they create them, the. The, like the alien drones. The alien drones immediately escape. You know, like, set it up where, like, the aliens have had to spend some time figuring out the prison that they're in. And then we, as the audience have spent some time with this crew.

01:10:03
Case
And now we find Ripley, the weird part, as opposed to her being our viewpoint character. And I think that's better because we should all be like, why? What is this character's deal? Like, Ripley is dead, right? Like, we're in on that part, so we should all be like, who. Who is this person? Like, why? Why. Why do we care about this person? And, oh, she actually does have the memories of the original Ripley. That's pretty cool. Like, we should, you know, reveal those. Those things as we go on. But we wouldn't be able to have, like, the scar on her chest, for example, because, like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, that's not like what was going on, or like, that doesn't make any sense from the cloning process of it all. But it does mean that we can have a scene like the.

01:10:39
Case
The encounter with Ripley7, which is like that. The. The one that's like, begging for death. And like, you know, we can have a sequence like that because I think pretty much the. The back half of the movie is. Is pretty fine. I. I think it's doing all the jobs appropriately and like I said, it has some cool kills. It's shot in a way that is a little different than the other movies, but that's fine. I think if this movie starts off feeling more of a Guardians of the Galaxy style, like, adventure swashbuckling thing and then turns to horror when they get on the base and like, and the aliens get free. Like, I think that will feel a bit more appropriate for this franchise as a whole. And it'll allow for the.

01:11:12
Case
The disparate tones to blend in better with what we've seen so far. And it'll allow Joss Whedon to lean into what he's good at as opposed to, you know, just the. They. They get introduced too fast and that, like, they're. They're too abrasive at the beginning and like, it, you know, just. Just spend time with this whole. Whole team of people and put them together, you know, sell us on it being like a cool pirate ship that we want to be a part of and then make it sad that they all die. Not all die, but, like, a lot of them die.

01:11:40
Nik
I think that's exactly the problem is that nobody. You don't really care when it comes to these characters. And one thing I will also add, which I thought was really cool about this pro should mentioned this earlier, was that shot in the basketball court that said that Ripley makes Sigourney. We've actually made that shot in real life.

01:11:55
Case
Oh, shit.

01:11:55
Nik
Which I think is fantastic.

01:11:56
Sam
That's so cool.

01:11:57
Nik
She was actually. Apparently was, you know, practicing her basketball skills before the film because they told her they were going to do something like that. She arrived on set. First shot she took, she made the shot. Apparently Ron Perlman was so blown, we literally said, oh, wow. And he was looking at the camera. But they were able to cut away to where you don't have that moment. And so it looks more fluid, but I think it's brilliant that is actually Sigourney Weaver throwing the ball and actually it's, you know, being making the basket on her first.

01:12:23
Case
That is fantastic. That is so great.

01:12:25
Sam
Amazing. I love that.

01:12:28
Case
Yeah. So I feel like we're kind of coming at this from similar positions here. Nick, you had the more different one of no parts, which I think is really cool. The only reason I'm sticking with the Pirates is because it is a thing that is different in this movie and it does play to the strength of the writer to have them. I just think it was. They're set up too fast and as a result, they're very flanderized when they're set up. And I would rather like, spend some more time with them and have them be like more fleshed out characters. So, Salmon, you and I, I think, are actually like, very much in agreement on this one. But all of these are like, fun takes on this movie, which, again, is part of the Alien franchise. And I love the Alien franchise.

01:13:03
Case
They're so cool. Like, I, and you know, it allows us to keep the newborn at the end, which is like, so weird and creepy and. Yeah, and like a good, like, new villain to introduce for the franchise. We've dealt with an alien queen before. We've dealt with the drones. So, like, it's nice that to have this like, different thing for the end of the movie. But yeah, so I, I feel good about this. I, I feel like we had like two similar, but both strong and then like one separate but also very strong take on like, how we could approach this movie. So I, I feel really good about this episode. I, I, yeah, I, I still don't love this one. Like, I, I just, it's the one which made me see the flaws in Joss Whedon's writing.

01:13:45
Case
And it's also the movie that I, I was able to say, like, you know what? I'm good with just the trilogy. It, you know, it's not my favorite. Like, it just doesn't need to exist in my opinion. But I still like the franchise as a whole and like, you know, I was still happy to watch it and rewatch it. So. Nick, thank you for bringing this movie.

01:14:03
Nik
Well, guys, thank you so much for having me and thank you for allowing me to talk one of my favorite franchise. And I might have to terrify Sam again because if there are other movies from the Alien franchise you guys haven't covered yet, I'll be more than happy to bring them to the podcast.

01:14:17
Case
You know, we. Oh boy, I'm always interested in that. So we might have that conversation further. But for people who want to find you and follow you because you brought such wonderful takes today, where can people do so well?

01:14:32
Nik
Thank you very much for that. Well, I guess deep cleansing breath. So as I mentioned earlier, you can find me in my day job hosting the radio show Whiskey and Cigarettes where we play the very best and nothing but the best of country music for you guys from Alabama to Zach Brown. And for more information about that and where to tune in, you can visit our website, which is Whiskey and Cigarettes Show.com podcast wise, if superhero movies are your speed, myself and Keith Bliss can be found on Happiness and Darkness, the superhero movie podcast. Case has joined us and it's always great to have him on.

01:15:03
Nik
We are going to be going in the curious direction this time because we recently reviewed Deadpool and Wolverine and now we're going to come back and review Renegade, which is this odd French movie which I never knew even existed, but we'll see what we make of it. And also myself, Zan Sprouse and Rachel Friend can be found on Gold Standard at the Oscars podcast where we have reviewed all the best picture winning movies in chronological order. And now as we wait for the 97th best picture to reveal itself, we're reviewing movies that we have chosen. And Case actually joined us on that as well to review Train Spotting. And it was a great. It was wonderful having me on for that. We recently reviewed Showgirls, which was made for quite the conversation indeed. And from Showgirls, a huge tonal shift.

01:15:46
Nik
We're going to be reviewing Metropolis next, so definitely looking forward to that. And last but certainly not least, myself and Charles Skaggs can be found on the Fandom Zone podcast where we review superhero TV shows. And we're going to be coming back to review the latest season of the Boys. So that's me.

01:16:01
Case
Yeah. So you. There's a thing about podcasting where like, you just like find yourself doing too many podcasts and we've all gone through that phase, but you seem to be able to maintain it in a way that I was not able to when I was running multiple shows simultaneously.

01:16:14
Nik
It's like tattoos. You can't have only one.

01:16:18
Case
I think all podcasters know that feeling, so. And you have a wealth of them, so people should check out all of those and we'll obviously put all the links in the show. Notes Sam, where can people find you and follow you by the way they.

01:16:29
Sam
Can find me here or occasionally when I remember the Discord exists. Our Discord. You can find me there when I decide to show up. But mostly I'm just hiding from space adventurers so they never offer to take me on it. So if you have any complaints at all, I will not be available to hear it because I'm too busy hiding. And you can take all of those complaints and give them to Case and you can find him at.

01:16:57
Case
Yeah, if your chest is just bursting with complaints, you can find me. Well, first on our Discord server, like Sam said, you can find the link on our website or all over the Internet. We've got links available to come join our conversation. It's, it's a really good time, really active conversations. So yes, check out the Certain POV Discord or you can find me at all the, all of the platforms that have at symbols like Twitter and, you know, blue sky and there you can find me at Case Aiken. Meanwhile, over on Instagram, the. The big exception there is I'm holding on to my AIM screen name for dear life, where you can find me@quetzalcoatl5, because when I was in high school, I was pretentious just then. Even. Even then. So yeah, you can find me there at quetzalcoatl5.

01:17:38
Case
You can find the show either wherever you find podcasts, you can find the show on Twitter at Another pass. And you can find episodes of the show on our YouTube channel, the Certain POV Media YouTube channel. So check those out. Those are great places to watch the show. You can also find episodes of Men of Steel or my Superman analogs YouTube series. So that's a great place to check it all out. And then you should circle back to this feed and check out what we've got next time. Sam, what do we have up next time?

01:18:06
Sam
Well, next time we'll be talking about Highlander 2 the Quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

01:18:17
Nik
Thanks for listening to Certain Point of.

01:18:19
Case
View's Another Pass podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on itunes.

01:18:26
Sam
Just go to certainpov.com Netherpass is a certain POV production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Richardi. Our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri. And our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.

01:18:47
Case
CPOV certainpov.com.