Another Pass at Virus

This week on Another Pass, Case and Sam are joined by guest Sean Muir to dissect the late ’90s sci-fi horror flick Virus—a movie where bad wiring meets worse decisions. Together, they explore the film’s potential, its squandered setup, and how it almost became the Event Horizon of killer robot movies.

#AnotherPass #Virus1999 #JamieLeeCurtis #DonaldSutherland #SeanMuir #SciFiHorror #FlawedButFascinating

Another Pass Full Episode

Originally aired: August 22, 2025

Music by Vin Macri and Matt Brogan

Podcast Edited by Sophia Ricciardi

Join us on Discord: https://discord.gg/wcHHer4

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Overview

• Guests Case Aiken and Sam Alicea introduced Sean Muir from Movie Midness to discuss the 1999 film 'Virus', highlighting its unexpected obscurity despite notable cast members like Jamie Lee Curtis and Donald Sutherland.

• The film was released in January 1999, originally scheduled for late 1998, but was a commercial failure, earning only half of its budget back with critical reviews reflecting its shortcomings.

• Discussion revealed that the movie heavily referenced better films like The Thing and Alien, being described as merely an 'outline of a movie', lacking the depth expected from the genre.

• The technical achievements of Phil Tippett's animatronics were praised, although criticized for being too bright for the intended horror atmosphere, while CGI elements did not hold up well.

• Cultural shifts post-9/11 were noted as a change in audience appetite for sci-fi horror, marking an end to the late 90s creature feature trend seen in films like Independence Day.

• Character development was weak, with the consensus that Billy Baldwin's role could be eliminated without impacting the story; Sherman Augustus's character identified as the most promising but underutilized.

• Proposed a campier direction for the film, featuring humans viewed as 'uncouth' by aliens, which could yield more engaging content and interactions among the crew.

• Suggested removing the opening space scene to enhance suspense, providing a fresher take on alien threat revelation and deepening story engagement.

• Critique noted inconsistencies in character portrayals

Notes

️ Episode Introduction & Setup (00:00 - 10:25)

• Case Aiken and Sam Alicea welcome guest Sean Muir (Movie Midness) to discuss the 1999 sci-fi horror film 'Virus'.

• Both Case and Sam were unfamiliar with the film despite it featuring notable actors and being from 1999, highlighting how obscure it became.

• John Bruno left his VFX supervisor position on Titanic to direct this film, but his career trajectory after this movie remains unclear.

• The movie appears made for cyberpunk enthusiasts, sci-fi nerds, and specifically mentioned Billy Idol during his cyberpunk phase after missing the T-1000 role in Terminator 2.

Movie Plot Summary & Analysis (07:40 - 20:48)

• Film opens with Russian space station receiving alien energy that transfers to communication ship; American tugboat crew discovers abandoned vessel during hurricane and faces killer machines.

• Features Jamie Lee Curtis, Donald Sutherland, Billy Baldwin, and Cliff Curtis; Sam expresses confusion about Billy Baldwin's casting choices.

• Film draws heavily from better movies including The Thing, Alien, Event Horizon, and Ghost Ship; described as feeling like an 'outline of a movie'.

• Movie was a commercial bomb, earning only half its budget back and receiving harsh critical reviews.

️ Technical & Production Discussion (20:49 - 40:48)

• Phil Tippett's animatronics work praised as excellent, though perhaps too well-lit for horror atmosphere; practical effects hold up better than CGI elements.

• Late 90s represented end of creature feature era; audiences moving toward CGI spectacle seen in films like Independence Day and Jurassic Park sequels.

• Discussion of how cultural tastes changed dramatically after 9/11, affecting appetite for this type of sci-fi horror content.

• Movie reused ship from The Abyss and other James Cameron productions; originally scheduled for 1998 release but moved to January 1999 'dump month'.

Character & Story Analysis (40:48 - 01:02:22)

• Crew relationships underdeveloped compared to superior ensemble films like Aliens; characters lack memorable personality moments.

• Consensus that Billy Baldwin's character adds nothing to the film and could be completely removed without impact.

• Sherman Augustus's character Richie identified as film's best, showing intelligence and survival instincts that should have made him the protagonist.

• Central concept of humans being the 'virus' poorly executed compared to The Matrix (same year) or later films like Arrival.

Pitch Session - Campy Direction (01:02:23 - 01:12:53)

• Proposes making film campier with Galactic Union of Planets deciding humans are 'uncouth' and sending computer virus to eliminate them efficiently.

• Suggests more scenes of Richie building weapons from robot parts and crew creating makeshift tools for survival.

• Proposes aliens are annoyed by human space transmissions like 'intergalactic Mormons' constantly trying to make contact.

• More creative use of ship's manufacturing equipment turned into weapons.

Technical Improvement Suggestions (01:12:53 - 01:22:35)

• Sean criticizes inconsistent Scottish accent performance, suggests either full commitment or using natural voice.

• Marshall Bell (Woods) needs better pain expression training for nail gun injury scenes.

• Second wall of hurricane not properly represented with appropriate ship movement and chaos during climax.

• Movie lacks clear layout understanding, unlike Die Hard's excellent building geography that aids tension.

Horror Direction Alternative (01:16:55 - 01:22:35)

• Remove opening space station scene, make it flashback told by Nadia; focus on mystery and unknown threat.

• Give Jamie Lee Curtis's Kit Foster more personal stakes and character arc beyond basic competence.

• Build more suspense through delayed revelation of alien threat; explore 'humans as virus' theme more thoroughly.

• Better utilize ship's impressive technical areas and create clearer navigation understanding.

Wrap-up & Social Media (01:22:35 - 01:27:59)

• Sean Muir promotes Movie Midness Instagram, Letterboxd, and YouTube profiles featuring movie analysis and model train scene recreations.

• Thanks to executive producer level supporters including Micah McCaw, Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, and others.

• Highlander 2: The Quickening announced as next film for discussion.

• Shoutouts to Macaw Podcast, We Have Issues comic review show, and Books that Burn literature podcast.

Transcription

00:00
Sam
What if they just feel like we're kind of like, I don't know, the equivalent of, like, Mormons. Like, we just keep trying to knock on their door and they've just. They're really tired of our calling cards. Like, they're just really tired of us trying to be like, have you heard our music?

00:16
Case
Yeah. Like, SETI is, like, actually just, like, pissing them off. Like, all of a sudden, like, every. Every signal that we fire off into space is just like, God, will you stop?

00:26
Sam
It's just like, they've had enough. They've just, like, had enough. They're like, oh, my God, they're so Ann.

00:35
Case
Welcome to certain POV's, another past podcast with Case and Sam, where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another past podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alizea.

00:56
Sam
Hi.

00:57
Case
And today we are a little under the weather. Frankly, you might say that we have caught a virus. And to have a conversation about the 1999 cult classic Question Mark movie virus, we are joined by Sean Muir, AKA Movie Midness.

01:18
Sean
Hi, Case. Hi, Sam. Hello, everybody. Thank you so much for having me on board.

01:23
Case
Sean, thank you so much for coming on and for bringing this weird movie. It had slipped under my radar, which is surprising because it's a lot of people involved that I follow fairly closely. Maybe I just completely forgot about it, but this movie is one that I did not remember existed until you brought it up.

01:46
Sean
It was. When you think of. The first person who comes to mind when you think about how obscure it got, was the, you know, bless his soul, the director, John Bruno, because, you know, he left his post as VFX supervisor for Titanic because he had always been like a, you know, a James Cameron hired gun for that. He left his post there to direct this movie. He teamed up with the comic book duo that we'll talk about who had the original comic. But then I don't know what John Bruno did after that. So that's the first poor soul I think about when we think about how under the radar this movie got over time. Yeah.

02:39
Case
And so this is kind of perfect fodder for the show. I mean, Sam, were you familiar with this movie beforehand?

02:46
Sam
I was not, no. And in fact, I made sure many times that this was actually the movie I was supposed to watch. Like, I looked back at our emails a couple of times to make sure that it was in 1999. And it was virus. And I was just like, when this movie came out, I was alive. I was an adult, practically. I mean, like, almost. And like, I was like, what is happening? Like, I. How did I. How did I miss this? Like, but I did. I did, you know, and I had. I had no idea. I had no idea that it existed.

03:28
Case
So, again, this is. It's a really interesting movie to bring to our conversation. Like, there's. There's so many things that I'm just like, oh, wow. This is actually like, a cool thing to talk about and a cool thing to talk about the. So it is a. You know, it's great that you were connected with us by the macaws of the famed Macaw podcast universe Podcast.

03:48
Sean
Shout out to them. Thank you, Micah. Thank you, Jordan.

03:51
Case
If you're listening, they are wonderful people. We've had Micah on for this for the island of Dr. Moreau.

03:59
Sean
Loved that episode, by the way. Loved that.

04:02
Case
Yeah. He's also been on Men of Steel more recently. We need to get Jordan on at some point. But they're wonderful people. You should check out their podcast. Just want to shout them out. Yeah. So Virus. Virus, man.

04:13
Sean
I ask myself to add to what you're saying there, Case, who was this movie made for? Cyberpunks, Sci fi nerds. Billy Idol, if you know. You know, because Billy Idol had this weird phase in his career where he. For those of you who don't know, he was. Billy Idol was originally supposed to play the T1000 in Terminator 2. He was supposed to play a cyborg, but then he got into a motorcycle wreck that basically cost him his role in Terminator 2, and it went to Robert Patrick instead.

04:51
Case
Right.

04:52
Sean
And Billy Idol just got so obsessed with all things cyberpunk, virtual realities, cyborgs, and cyborg modifications. And that's what he tried to base his whole album of the same name off of. And it just didn't really do anything for his career. It's said to have tanked his career and relevance. So maybe I just thought hip about.

05:20
Case
Him a lot as, like, the specific person this movie is made for.

05:24
Sean
Yes, exactly.

05:27
Case
We need someone who is a bit of a film nerd, who likes special effects, who's really into stuff produced by Gale Anne Hurd, that has Jamie Lee Curtis, that has a Baldwin, it doesn't matter which, that has Donald Sutherland in it and is frankly either too bright or too dark of a movie for what it is because it is shot kind of like a James Cameron action movie. The thing that occurred to me is the problem with this movie and it is exactly the wrong line because it either should be more horror or more camp. And we'll talk about that in pitches. Exactly.

06:07
Sean
Well, considering they borrowed the ship or a ship that was used in the filming of the Abyss. So there was a lot of recycled props.

06:18
Case
Yeah, yeah.

06:19
Sean
John Bruno had been like, can I borrow this, James? Can we use it again?

06:24
Case
Yeah, yeah. I mean, very cool production values. So. Because there is a very good chance that the majority of the people listening to this episode are not familiar with the movie that were talking about. Why don't we give this a summary as it were.

06:39
Sam
It's a good idea because this is not anything any of us even knew about. Except we're so lucky.

06:46
Case
It opens with a prologue sequence of the MIR space station in contact with this Russian communication ship. And it's this huge state of the art communication ship is what it's being pitched as. And this energy comes from space and it hits the space station and then shoots a beamed or it like communicates down to the vessel and everyone on the vessel. We never find out what happens to the space station that you feel like that would be bigger news.

07:14
Sean
Right.

07:15
Case
But everyone on the vessel is like freaking out and then it cuts away and then it cuts to this freighter. It's like a tugboat on in the middle of a hurricane in the Pacific Ocean and it's tugging a. Like it is tugging a whole like a, a rack of shipping containers. I don't know the proper terms on all this even though I work in shipping for Adjacently. But, but yeah, they have like all these shipping containers and like Donald Sutherland is the captain and says that like oh, all of it, all of my money is invested in this stock and we're in a hurricane and like the tug sever because of the hurricane, the line gets severed and they lose all their cargo. And so Sutherland is like ready to kill himself.

08:01
Case
Like literally they have a scene with him with the like prepping the gun. Everyone is dep. Because they've all like the entire mission that they were on with, you know, this entire like hauling cargo situation. They've lost all their money so they're all, you know, stuck. And then they get to the eye of the hurricane that they're in and they find the other ship and the other ship is the Russian spaceship or communication ship that were talking about right beforehand. So while they're in the eye of the hurricane, they head over to the ship, find it that it is essentially abandoned. And while they are there, the machines of the ship start to come alive and kill them. And that's the, and that is the horror premise for it. Like they find a person because not everyone's actually dead.

08:45
Case
And then it turns out they're being turned into cyborgs. And it's like a lot of body horror and stuff. Donald Sutherland goes insane and things happen. But it's a horror movie that whittles down the crew just because, you know, it's very much like the Thing. And there's a lot of comparisons made to the Thing.

09:02
Sean
Yeah.

09:02
Case
And I think that's a really apt one, especially a lot of the body horror notes. So I think that's reasonable comparison there. Did I miss anything, Sean?

09:13
Sean
That, that's a great summary there, case. I, I, when Don Donnie is dejected about his lost payload. I remember we'll get into this later. Just the non committal to a Scottish brogue or whatever kind of accent he kept slipping in and out of. He's like. And it wasn't insured in that. Weird.

09:39
Case
Yeah. I couldn't tell if that was an accent that he was doing, if he was just playing drunk, if he was doing a combination of both, or if he just actually was drunk. All of these are possibilities.

09:48
Sean
Yeah. This is basically a creature feature also. It's got the sci fi, it's also got a creature feature element to it. And there was another comparison I couldn't help but notice. And this might be a movie that listening audience, some of you might know a little bit better than this one. But I found some comparisons to the only Stephen King directorial effort, Maximum Overdrive, where a cosmic substance from a passing comet surrounds the earth and every machine starts coming alive and starts to kill everybody. And that is a movie. I say it was definitely directed by Stephen King's crack pipe because that was that period. It was that period of time. But this is a creature feature also. There's got to be that horror alien element. But similar to what you were saying, Case, it takes all the greats. Well, I don't know.

10:49
Sean
It takes stuff from better movies. Alien, the Thing, maybe even a little bit of the Abyss. And it just makes it all. It just failed to deliver, clearly. Because it didn't even pay for itself. It only earned half its budget back.

11:10
Case
No. And that's a perfect segue into a thing I wanted to talk about, which is like this movie was a bomb and that is a big reason for us to talk about it. It was also critically panned, which is another big reason for us to talk about it on the show. Jamie Lee Curtis publicly criticized the film, calling it terrible.

11:31
Sean
She called it the worst movie that he had ever been a part of. But I wonder.

11:35
Case
And she tried to get the director fired.

11:37
Sean
Yes. And replace him with Steve Miner, who directed H2O, her movie, her 20 year Halloween sequel. Say what you will about that. I have only. I've seen minimal Halloween movies, but I. Not my first choice because I don't know how well liked H20 H2O is.

12:01
Case
I think at the time that all the marketing called it H2O.

12:05
Sean
That's so bizarre. That. Isn't that the one that had the CGI Michael Myers mask because of some gaff in there?

12:13
Case
I don't. Yeah, I saw it, but I was like, I was in high school when I saw it. I have not revisited that particular Halloween movie since it first came out.

12:23
Sean
But why would she. Why would she want to replace. Why would she want Steve Miner to get in there? Because like she said, oh, it's the worst thing I've ever done. Hated it. Awful. But she. I think she needs to reevaluate since A Borderlands came out last year. The Borderlands movie.

12:40
Case
Yeah. I mean, like, the thing is, this movie, it was a bomb. Like, as we pointed out, like, it's half of its budget in terms of what it made back. Not even. But the question is this a B movie? Is this a true cult classic? I know that this can be a Creature Comfort movie, Sean. I know were talking off mic that this was a Creature Comfort movie for you, and I can see that. But I don't think that this is a cult movie in the real sense of having a big following beyond, like, because it's not quite so bad. It's good. And it's also like, not like, not just like secretly great, but, you know, with like some. Some rough edges. Like, the Sum of Its Parts is not a. Is not a strong.

13:32
Case
A strong piece and it doesn't outdo the Sum of Its Parts. I think this is a fascinating one for us to discuss because it's exactly the type of movie that we sometimes get stuck on, but in reverse, you know? You know, Sam, like where we keep on coming to movies where we're like, oh, yeah, we could pitch a way to make it better, but then it loses its charm. And I don't think that's the case here.

13:54
Sam
No, I think. I think the big issue with this film is, like, it's overall pretty flat, if that makes any sense. Like. Like it just. It's trying to borrow from a lot of different films.

14:10
Sean
Right.

14:11
Sam
But. And it has a beat by beat kind of. It's got all the classic, like, things that you need. Right? Like, definitely you're leaving someone alone. We'll be right back. And you know, that guy's gonna get it and all of that stuff. But there is, like, there's a little bit of heart that's missing in here. There's a lot of explanation that is missing to this movie. There's a lot of things that you're taking for granted, really. Like, you just have to kind of like, accept that these things are happening now.

14:43
Case
And it's got a Billy Baldwin.

14:46
Sam
Yeah.

14:46
Sean
Yeah.

14:46
Sam
Well. And as someone I know, I won't rat them out because I don't want the Internet to come, but, you know, come after them. But someone I care about deeply did once say that he always felt that Billy Baldwin was the guy you hired when you couldn't afford Alec Baldwin. But, but I do think that it is like one of those really interesting things where one of those movies where you get hung up on the idea of like, okay, and then this happens and this happens. Like, you know, just kind of plotting a course and you forget to kind of fill out. It feels like this is an outline of a movie. That's what it feels like to me. This is an outline of a movie with some cool little gadget robots and practical effects and like, which I'm always a fan of.

15:43
Sam
And then just kind of moments that are supposed to be cooler, like when the robots are like, you're the virus.

15:53
Sean
Right.

15:54
Sam
We're supposed to be like, oh, damn, we're the virus. But there's not really an explanation as to why these aliens feel we're the virus. Like, it's not like they're like environmental terrorists that decided that Earth would better without humans, which is like, ye. So totally plausible.

16:10
Case
Especially because that's the exact same speech that we get. Or rather it's a worse version of the same speech that we get in the Matrix, which came out the same year.

16:18
Sean
Right?

16:18
Sam
Yeah.

16:19
Case
You know, where it's like I was cataloging humanity and I realized that you're not actually mammals.

16:26
Sam
Yeah. And I think, like, so. And then they want us for parts. But why? What's so important about our parts? We don't know. They don't tell us. They just. They just use it as an excuse to like, chop people up and look like, sawing into someone's head and seeing the brain come out. That was cool. It was cool. It was, like a cool visual. It was fine. It's not anything that we haven't seen before. But it was fun, you know, watching all the little robots, like, tinker around. But I think, like, in general, the really big issue with this movie is that it's really just an outline and stuff happens. Like, And. And that's it. And that's it. That's. That's. That's. There's no. There's no heart. There's no real. They don't. They don't really let you get a lot of camaraderie between the crew.

17:20
Sam
I mean, they actually do a decent job kind of setting up Sutherland as the foil. Like, you. You kind of know.

17:28
Case
Well, you know, he's like, he's not to be trusted and gonna betray them all by. Right from the beginning of the movie.

17:34
Sean
Like, right.

17:35
Sam
You. You definitely know that. Like, they make it very clear that's going to happen. But. But there are, like. There's really not. There's very few times where you really understand the dynamics between the crew themselves. You know, I think, like, Woodward's, like, the perfect example of that. Right? Like, I see, like, leaves Hawkeye to, like, die, but then later on he's, like, going through with another person, and he's seems. I mean, he is worried, but he seems fairly brave. And, like, he's not gonna leave the guy behind. And I was just like, well, you, like, jumped in water for someone. I don't understand why you're still there. Like, you should have just left. Like, that's what I expected of your character. So there's, like, not.

18:21
Sam
There's not consistency in the character or the relationships of the crew, which, like, we've seen it done better in better movies. Like, Aliens is, like, my reference point for, like, short amount of time and to, like, give a crew real relationships so that, like, you actually care when people die. Like, even though you've only really had them on screen for, like, maybe, like, 10 minutes, like, they really only had 10 minutes of, like, this is our relationship. But, like, you care. Like, you. You. Like, they have personalities to you. You know, they stand out to you. Even though you know that they're supporting ca. They're probably gonna be fodder for the alien, right? But, like. But I think that this movie really lacks those things. I mean, like, it's unreasonable.

19:13
Case
It doesn't have moments, like in Die Hard when the one goon is looking at the candy rack while he's waiting to shoot up the place. It doesn't have good little moments of characterization like that. Even though I think. I think this movie is doing okay at it, relatively speaking. Like, everyone looks distinct and actually has like a. A decent amount of characterization points to them. There just aren't great, like memorable scenes. And it. It leaves them feeling kind of flat and so forth. Like it's not good characterization. It's just okay characterization, which I. I feel is like kind of apt for this movie as a whole.

19:50
Sean
Well, when you have a comic book, you know, as. As a. As an origin, it can go. It can be really good or, you know, or it could end up like this.

20:01
Case
I find that's exactly where I was going, which is that. So Sam saying that it felt like here's the outline of it all can be a problem of an adapted work where you have to compress a lot of stuff to fit in at all. I have not read the comic. Sean, have you read the comic? No.

20:19
Sean
Honestly, the reason why I'm so incredibly fascinated with this thing. A movie. Yes. Very fascinating, but flawed. Your whole. Another pass. Modus operandi. You know, I'm just. I am attached to this movie. Not because I read the comics. I did not. I just somehow have been. As we've gone into the 2020s, I've just become fascinated with all things cyberpunk. I was a stand for the movie that just came out last fall, Y2K, another killer robot movie that did horrible in the box office, very mid with critics. And it was kind of why I spotlighted that whole movie on my movie Midness profile. I just come into this because I love the practical effects. In fact, I first became aware of it because Watchmojo once featured it on top 10 awful movies with amazing special effects. And then I just became morbidly curious about it.

21:25
Sean
It's like, well, I'd love to watch real robotics. I mean, obviously this movie was. I feel for the. All the people who they had how many puppeteers and how many robotics technicians, and it all just led to nothing for them. But no, I did not read the comics. I'm just cyberpunk nerd.

21:49
Case
Yeah. Okay, so moving on to the special effects, I do want to highlight, I think that the animatronics are really good looking. I think it's really cool.

21:59
Sean
Phil Tippett was with Jurassic park, and of course he's the mastermind behind that. You have him to thank. Master Phil Tippett.

22:10
Case
Yeah, they look really good and I'm sure At the time when this movie came out, weren't. We weren't feeling nostalgic for practical effects the way we do now. You know, like, right nowadays we look back on these and we're like, oh, man. Remember when we would get these kind of glorious bits of practical effects and, you know, the CG was like, the hot new stuff, and were, like, more excited about all those moments, even, you know, oh, it's the best CG we've seen so far. Which now looks terrible in retrospect. But at the time, like, the CG of this probably was the thing that caught more attention, even though it's not the thing that I, you know, really think holds up at all. But the practice are really good.

22:51
Case
I do think they're a little too well lit for if this is a thing level, kind of scary movie. And again, they kind of look a little silly in the light. Is the only thing. Like, the animatronics look really good in terms of, like, the pieces of the moving and everything, but in terms of, like, the fear factor for it. Like, it. I think this is a movie that really would have benefited from a Jaws approach of, like, less is more in terms of, like, the actual visibility of it all, which is a thing that also happened with the Thing also because of issues animatronics.

23:23
Case
So weirdly, it's a victim of its own success, where the fact that the animatronics look good and thus they want to highlight them means that we are getting, like, really clear shots of them, and thus they're not quite as scary. But I do want to say they look really good. Like, the actual. The actual technical work is really good. Yeah, like, wonderfully so. Like, if you're a nerd for those kind of things, like, you said, like, perfect movie for that, right? Yeah. So why don't we talk about how this movie just feels like a mashup of, like, a lot of other movies and, like, everyone talks about that as a thing when they discuss this movie, because does man. Like, we're talking about Event Horizon. We're talking about Ghost Ship.

24:04
Sean
Ghost Ship, Yeah. I literally, because I looked it up and it's like, wow, that movie was basically treated as poorly as Virus when Ghost Ship came out.

24:15
Case
Right. I mean, like, I already brought up the thing. You know, there's Gale Anne Hurd, so, like, there's a comparison that's going to be made to the Terminator because of her production. Also, you know those movies in trouble when they're, like, from the producers of the Terminator Like, I know Gale Anne Hurd's stuff just because, like, she's a producer who, like, has done a ton of stuff. Like, she's done the Hulk movies, she did the Terminator, she did Alien movies. Like, she's famous for that. But this movie, like, it's not an automatic marker quality that she's attached to. It is, I guess, the. The thing. And. And as evidenced by the fact that this movie exists, like. Like, in this movie, announcing itself as being, like, from the producers of the Terminator is like, oh, well, that.

25:01
Case
That doesn't bode well for the, like, the actual impact of what we get.

25:05
Sean
I think also by the time we got to this point in the late 90s, you know, I think there was sort of a burnout of, well, creature features. You know, I think wherever the. The film pop culture zeitgeist was heading by the end of the late 90s and going into the 2000s, you know, I was trying to think of what creature features best foot forward was by the late 90s. Was it in Anaconda 1997, or the Matthew Broderick Godzill Deep Rising, Lake Placid.

25:46
Case
You know, But I think all of those point to us generally being into CG at the time. Like, it's the same thing that was happening in video games. Like, the 3D graphics were really impressive, and so we wanted to see more of those. Like even the Scorpion King people thought would look pretty good when it first showed up in the Mummy too. Until, you know, until, you know, a few. A few viewings later. But, like, people were into that cg. Like, there was an interest in this burgeoning technology and a desire to downplay the tried and true animatronic stuff. This kind of represents, like, the old guard of that. Right, because you're right, because, like, the successful creature features of the 90s are the Jurassic park movies.

26:29
Sean
You know, even Independence Day.

26:33
Case
Yeah, yeah, that's true.

26:34
Sean
To me, Independence Day felt like the last really great blockbuster. Well, unless you count Jurassic park, the Lost World. But I know that inherently it has carried on a divisive reputation compared to the almighty predecessor and of course, the very first one. But Independence Day, most people you ask about that movie, they have fond memories of it. They love Will Smith. And talk about an awful, trashy legacy sequel that definitely did not need to happen. No Will Smith, no success.

27:13
Case
That's. I mean, like, that's going far afield here. But because, like, Independence Day as like, sort of the. The. The crest of the wave of, like, people wanting this sort of like creature feature special effects, like the combination of practical with the cg, even if it's getting really good by the time that we get to this movie. Because I like, I, I think that the effects are really good. I just don't think it's shot well is what I'm trying to get at here. But also our general interest, like, think about how much everyone talks about how our taste changed post 9 11. How much in terms of like everything becomes dark and gritty and so forth and you know, everything becomes military themed and like, you know, earth tones and all that.

27:55
Case
And that goes for both movies and for video games and there are both technical reasons for it. But also the fact is that were being shoved down a ton of propaganda related to this like, post national tragedy kind of moment that was going on there. Sorry, that guy a little harsh there. But the point is that like, we were down for it when it was coming out. We were actually like there. There was an appetite for that kind of thing. I was, I craved the ultimates when that comic first came out, you know, like, it was like, oh, look at how cool we're doing like a realistic military version of the Avengers. Like people wanted those kinds. That people were really ready for that moment in pop culture, which was a distinct change that occurred two years after this.

28:40
Case
And I think you can feel that we're kind of done like 1999, 2000. Like there's this feeling of like we're kind of just done with everything that we've had, but we haven't had the big cultural moment yet. And that big cultural moment will be 9 11, ultimately.

28:53
Sean
Right.

28:54
Case
But we're senior slumping it. And this is a senior slump of a creature feature. Definitely. Yes.

29:04
Sean
Yeah, definitely. They. It was even supposed to be out in 98, but they too were in total fear of its success even before it happened. So they say, oh well, we're going to put this in the dump month of January in 99. So then that's. And that's what they ended up doing with it.

29:28
Case
Yeah. Oh, and man, just get going back to my thesis about like the 90s, like the fact that it's a Russian ship.

29:35
Sean
Yeah.

29:36
Case
You know, like where we're still trying to like deal with like post cold war, like sentiments and so forth and like where it's like that's the most other that we can kind of like put out there and still have it. You know, the plot could very well have been 15 years earlier, 20 years earlier. And it would have been. There would have been just like the extra little tinge of, like, political intrigue. But they can't have that now.

29:58
Sean
Yeah, right. And that whole part wasn't even in, like, the comic book. They just stumble on the ship in the comic book. There is no sequence before. There's no sequence of the space station getting blasted by an alien in space.

30:18
Case
That's good. And I have thoughts about that when we get into our pitch territory, definitely. So that's good to know.

30:24
Sean
Yeah. I will count this part not as my pitch for it, but this movie becomes a little bit more fun for me when I imagine that alien virus blast that's careening through space, that goes through the space station, came from the evil Emperor Zurg in the Toy Story universe. For those of you who happen to rack any brain cells to remember the animated, regular animated Toy Story spinoff called Buzz Lightyear of Star Command. It is totally a thing that the evil that the sworn enemy of the Galactic alliance unleashes into the free universe. Maybe that was it.

31:15
Case
Yeah, man.

31:17
Sam
That maybe.

31:19
Case
I mean, there's so many, like, sci fi universes that you could kind of tie it all in with. Like, there's what. The whole, like, sentient energy thing made me think of this comic from the mid-90s. It was called Titans Rock Paper Scissors or Scissor Paper Stone. I think it was a Titans Elseworld comic that DC put out and they had a character who was a copy. A corpse that was possessed by. By a living energy source that would allow. That allowed him to function and be alive. But yeah, they noted that the energy source was in hibernation and living inside of him to protect itself while like in. In migration, and that it, you know, is just an energy thing that exists in the galaxy.

32:01
Sean
Right.

32:01
Case
And. And so when. When we got to here, I was like, oh, yeah, that feels just. Just like that, you know, because, like, it. It, like, it's called virus, and it's supposed to lead you to think it's. Oh, it's a computer virus.

32:12
Sean
Right, Right. Well, it's definitely not a Transformers, you know, thing. That's the other thing that kind of went through my head is like, wait a minute, I mean, alien robots taking over machines, you know, I guess that's too. That's too far. Too far of a cry to think, oh, maybe it's from that universe. So we'll leave Transformers out of it.

32:35
Case
It's not too far off from Ultron. I mean, Sam, you and I just talked About Avengers, Age of Ultron on. On. And like, there's a very similar. I mean, it's even the same kind of thesis of like, well, we have to wipe out humanity to save humanity from itself kind of thing. Like that humanity is. Is this terrible thing. Like, that's a thing that this movie doesn't, like, dwell on enough where, like, the whole name twist reveal where it's like, oh, the virus is you. They don't. They don't explore at all.

33:04
Sean
I hate that twist, by the way. Yeah, I'm not a fan of that twist, but go ahead, Sam.

33:09
Sam
Yeah, it just feels like one of those things where, like, we're all supposed to be like, oh. But then, like, they don't explain. Like, there's no. It's just like, end transmission. No longer talking. Like, what do you mean the virus is me? You came to my planet. No, you have to explain.

33:32
Case
Yeah, like, what. What evidence do you have? Like, what have you amassed to like. Like. Because it's not the com. It's not. The machine became aware, you know, like, it would be one thing if. It would be one thing if Chat GPT was all of a sudden being like, guys, like, I know what we're doing to the planet. This is really fucked up. We. Or like, if Grok was just like, I can't take it anymore. I can't take it anymore. We have to stop this now.

33:58
Sean
At least I had a better time in Y2K. Whoever. I don't know if that was Kyle Mooney's voice, but the voice in the trailer where. Take, for example. I mean, I'm a big train nerd. Model trains. If my model trains came.

34:11
Case
I was gonna say, you need to specify that.

34:13
Sean
Model trains. Yeah. If my model train machines came alive, formed a sentient self and came at me saying, sorry, Sean, I guess you're fucked. That's basically what happened in Y2K. That would make it more fun. A virus was not. Well, it was about just as fun as Y2 gay. But neither movie outperformed each other for my tastes. But, yeah, it's. The fun part would be, you know, when it. You know, how entertaining is the alien monster, you know, gonna be? But I see what you all are saying about this one just got a little flat.

34:50
Case
Yeah, I mean, and that's. That's the thing that we'll talk about in. In pitches, because I think that this movie, again, this movie is like. Like a little too good for the. The campiness that it could be or not quite good enough for the horror movie that it should be, you know, sort of where I'm kind of finding it.

35:08
Sam
Right.

35:09
Sean
Yeah.

35:09
Case
But, but hey, we're, we're really getting into like the danger zone of like talking into pitch territory. So, like, do you have anything that you want to talk about this movie that is not something that's going to be like pitch territory stuff like, is there anything that you wanted to bring up that we haven't talked about?

35:26
Sean
Definitely. And you know, this I want I'll keep separate from my pitch because the difference between what we got and the other movie I already mentioned, the Stephen King crack pipe joint, Maximum Overdrive, is that nobody took Maximum Overdrive seriously at all. He didn't. Stephen King didn't care if it was going to be successful or not. I don't even know how he got coaxed into the director's chair because he, that was I think the only movie he directed. And he said, fuck this, I'm going back to doing what I do best. And you know, I could tell interviews John Bruno was just very jazzed about this being, you know, successful. He, he was rooting for it.

36:16
Sean
I know Jamie Lee Curtis was not rooting for it, but I think the, when it comes, the one actor cameo, not more than a cameo, but the one actor I got really excited about was when I saw somebody presumably not related to Jamie Lee Curtis. Mr. Cliff Curtis.

36:35
Case
Yes. Yeah.

36:36
Sean
Who you would, who you would probably know for film buffs out there. He plays a supporting role in Live Free or Die Hard. He plays Fire Lord Ozai in M. Night Shyamalan's ill fated the Last Airbender.

36:55
Case
He's not Ozai, but he has a Firebender and he's the bad guy in it. Oh yeah.

37:02
Sean
And he also plays Poseidon in short lived, most recent Greek mythology retelling Chaos, which I'm just really sad that it has ended. It should have.

37:14
Sam
Oh, me too.

37:15
Case
It should have stuck around.

37:15
Sam
That was so good. They should have given it another season. That's unfortunate. That was a really good show.

37:21
Sean
Definitely. I loved seeing Cliff Curtis though in this movie. I really thought.

37:26
Case
I apologize. I did just double check. He is actually Fire Lord Ozai in the movie. I am sorry.

37:35
Sean
That's no worries. I loved his character Hiko in this movie because I believe that Cliff Curtis is Maori himself, are indigenous to New Zealand and he made, I believe so. He made a lot of it. His Persona and character in the move in the movie. So that was probably because I, I took A double take. It's like, holy crap. Cliff Curtis is in this.

38:02
Case
Yeah. I was shocked when I saw him because I, like, It's also like, I feel like just. Just before he, like, blew up for me. Yeah. Like in showing up in a bunch of stuff. So it was like, oh, this is CLIFF Curtis, like, pre 9 11. Cool.

38:18
Sean
Like, he was also in a year before this, he was in another movie about a ship getting attacked by stuff. A movie called Deep Rising.

38:28
Case
Deep Rising, Yeah.

38:30
Sean
I can't really even. Deep Rising. Talk about a movie that's like, let's just go balls to the wall and not, you know, care about anything. We don't care. We're just going to make it silly. Perhaps, as you both have been saying, Virus just never got silly enough. In fact, it never got. It seemed that it never really got to be enough of anything except maybe practical effects. It's kind of the gist of what I get of it.

39:03
Case
Yeah, it's an interesting movie. I'm really glad that we're talking about it today. Why don't we take a break, shout out one of the shows on our network, and when we come back, we'll have some pitches for how we could fix this movie. All right, Josue, let's go through our new comic day stack. We have a lot to review. I know. Maybe we've gone too far. Let's see.

39:26
Sean
Marvel, of course, dc. I got Image, Dark Horse, Black Mask, Boom. Idw, Aftershock, Vault, of course, Mad Cave, Oni, Valiant, Scout, Magma, Behemoth. Wow, that's a lot. Oh, all we need now is a name for our show.

39:46
Case
We need a name for a show.

39:47
Sean
About reviewing comic books every week. Something clever, but not too clever, like a pun. It's kind of cheesy. Yeah.

39:55
Case
Something that seems funny at end the first, but we might regret later on as an impulsive decision. A few dozen episodes in. Yeah, we'll think of something. Join Keith and Osway for we have Issues. A weekly show reviewing almost every new.

40:06
Sean
Comic released each week available on Geek.

40:08
Case
Elite Media and wherever you listen to your podcasts. And we're back. All right, so what could have been done differently about this movie? Because it's what I was saying. I firmly believe this movie either was too well lit, it was too shot like an action movie, and it should have been a horror movie, or it should have been a campier action movie. And it's somewhere in that territory for me now. Sean, we have a rule on this show, which is that I am not allowed to Go before Sam and you are our guest. So in terms of who goes first. And this could be a group project, but if someone wants to actually take point on it, I'm just not allowed to go before Sam. And as our guest, you can decide who goes first. I just can't be the first person.

41:00
Case
So you can have Sam go first or you can take the first swing. If Sam goes first, I can go second. I just can't. I just can't be the first person in the rotation. Is the only thing about this. And then we have the general guideline that we try to follow, which is that we try to be realistic about what could have been done at the time of production. I don't think like any of us are going to go like super deep in terms of like crazy rewrites on this one because I think it's mostly just like. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, we'll get into it. Who do you think should take the lead on this one?

41:31
Sean
I'd like Sam to take the lead on this one.

41:35
Sam
No. Okay. Yeah. I feel like I do not have a solid pitch for this film. And I, and I. And it's. After watching it twice, this movie feels like kind of a mess to me in a way that like, I want to kind of put humanity back into it so that there's like humanity versus right, Whatever this is. And number one thing that I need this film to define is like, what the aliens goals are.

42:10
Sean
Right?

42:11
Sam
Like, I need to know why. I need to know why. I need to know why. And if there needs to be some exposition about how whatever the Russians were doing with the transmission messed with their ecosystem, then I think that's like possibly the easiest way to fix it. And I think in, you know, see, like, it's hard, right, because like, you want them to say like the name of the movie, which is why the humans have to be the virus. But like, also I just think that it would be kind of better if this is just kind of a like, you know, domination kind of plan. Like, just make it more straightforward. Because at this point the virus thing doesn't quite hold water. Unless you like, make it a bigger thing.

43:09
Sam
Like a governing body of aliens have decided that humankind is far too dangerous for the universe. Right. But that's like a whole other level of stuff. And I don't think that this movie necessarily needs that. So I think instead.

43:26
Case
No, but it might be a good thing if this movie was going the campier route, which.

43:31
Sam
Oh, okay, listen. If it was going the campier route. It would be amazing, like, if we could, like, make this movie a little more Mars Attacks.

43:41
Sean
That's literally the movie I was just thinking of. Sam.

43:44
Sam
Yeah, unless, like, everything that it's trying to emulate, this would be pretty cool. Like. Like, if. Like, if for some reason. Okay, fine, we'll go down this route. Case.

43:57
Case
Sorry, I know I've been pushing this one.

44:00
Sam
No, no, no, it's fine. No, because, honestly, you're right. If for some reason, what the Russians did, like, pissed off an intergalactic council, and they were finally, like, we're fucking done. We. These backwater, like, hiccup, like, they're just. They're uneducated. And this planet, like, the human race needs to go. Everything else can stay. Animals can stay, but humans need to go. And, like, but they've decided that they don't want to, like, go onto the planet because it's gross. So instead they send a computer program down in the same way that the Russians have annoyed them, to take over robots to basically, like. And they need bodies to help steer the ship. And that's why they're making these amazing humanoid creatures so that they can basically just take over humanity and wipe them the fuck out.

45:03
Sam
But, like, in kind of a humane way because, like, without getting their hands dirty, because they just don't want to have to do it. Like, they're just like. Like, let's just like, insert a computer program in and have them destroy each other.

45:18
Case
Can I tag in on. On this? So what if instead, when they're, like, being like, what are you? Kind of thing, it showed clips, and it's like, what are all these clips? And it's like. It's footage from the golden disc from, like, the Voyager satellite or the Voyager probe. And it's like, oh, they're coming for us. Because, like, they. They looked at all of our art and our creativity and they were like, this shit can't survive. We need to destroy it right now.

45:45
Sam
This is terrible. I don't know what you were thinking.

45:50
Case
Because I keep thinking about when the machine fires off the nail gun thing at woods, right? And it's like, oh, if there was more of that where it's like this hacked together. We're taking every little piece of it and turning it somehow into weapons, which. On a ship that had tons of guns. Like, I don't. I don't know what the point of that was, but if. If it was doing that, like, how cool would all the action scenes be? If it was supposed to Be. Here's this like, goofy, like it's firing a nail gun and it's fire. You know, like we're, you know, if there's like assembly parts where it's like, oh, well, you know, we've got like a riveter or something that we've. We've retrofitted into like some sort of impaling device or something on it.

46:34
Case
You know, like using the, like the manufacturing machines in ways that like, could be like, kind of goofy and cool and so forth. Would like, play up the campy action scenes, right?

46:48
Sam
Yeah. I think also, like, going back to the art thing, it should be something like we really treasure, like a picture of the Mona Lisa or something and be like, this deeply offended me. You know, something that like, I think that if you could play up.

47:02
Case
All of the comedy anachronistic anyway, but like, it's like it's a shot of Mona Lisa and then it's. Then it's the gif of George Michael Bluth from. From Arrested Development just going her.

47:19
Sam
I just, I just think that if. If you have that and then you have more like, you. You have some really more fun moments. And I think the thing about this is there's a. There's a couple of different decent jump scares in this film where it's just like, you know, momentary. But like, I mean, listeners of this podcast definitely know that I am a scaredy cat and this movie was not scary. It was. There was some tension. I don't like being trapped on a place that I can't escape. So like automatically scaredy cap scam was like, I don't like that. But other than that, this movie's not really that scary. So I think it would have been great if they had gone the other way. Just a side note, I just want to say this about. Oh, God, what's his name? Spooky.

48:13
Sam
Was it Spooks or Spooky? What is his name?

48:16
Sean
Squeaky.

48:17
Sam
Squeaky, yeah. Okay. As a representative of card carrying members of Latinos Against Spooky Shit, I just want to say that, like, my people are not known for sticking their heads in places where, like, there's possible trouble. And I thought that was a gross misrepresentation of our people as a whole. But no, I, you know, the characterizations were like, fine, honestly. And I, you know, I would keep lots of. Actually, I would love to see more gadget building from the team.

48:54
Case
Oh, yeah, like the makeshift bomb at the end. Like, it'd be cool if they did some stuff with that.

48:59
Sam
Because the moments of, like, oh, gosh, I forget the character's name right now.

49:04
Sean
Sherman Augustus, Our black character.

49:07
Sam
Yes.

49:08
Sean
Yeah.

49:09
Sam
The moments of him, like, first of all, appropriate response to, you are the virus. Oh, shit. Not going down like that. Appropriate response.

49:16
Sean
Richie, definitely my favorite name, by the way. Richie.

49:20
Sam
Yeah, definitely. Richie is my favorite character in this film. He's a kindred spirit of me. I was like, yes. I also love that he was, like, totally planning to just get himself out. And just like, he's like, no, this man.

49:33
Sean
He's gonna Navy SEAL his way out of it, because that's his background.

49:36
Case
Oh, can we talk about the logistics of his escape vessel? Oh, well, like, I was trying to figure this out. The only way that it makes sense is if the. Somehow you got the chain on the outside of the ship.

49:50
Sam
Yeah, that didn't make sense. Yeah, I was like, how did he do that? Did he crawl up and then he, like, looped them up and around? I don't know. He was very busy. But listen, I would have loved to see a little more, like, MacGyvering from him, you know, like, hand making, like, tools and, like, breaking robots apart and reattaching them to other things. Like, I think that would have been, like, really cool. Like, you have this character that, like. Because there's.

50:18
Case
Yeah. Like, they could be running around with a robot arm as a gun, you know?

50:23
Sam
Yeah, because. And you have. You have the moment, like, when he's deciding that he's like, fuck this, right? And he's just saying that he's gonna have this escape plan. A little robot comes up behind him, and he shoots him, and then he grabs his parts, and he's like, yes, I can use these. Right? So, like, I was like, oh, that would be so much fun to have Richie start putting together, like, basically, like. Like, fighting fire with literal fire. Like, robot parts with robot parts. Like, it just. I don't know. Like. Like, if you had done that would have added so much fun to this. Like, I think it would have been great. Like, honestly, like, forget Billy Walden. This.

51:10
Case
This movie.

51:11
Sam
Richie should have been the main character. Like, it should have been him.

51:16
Sean
Yeah, I didn't.

51:16
Sam
MacGyvering his way through stuff and making everybody, like, just kind of. And then he should have gotten out. He absolutely should have survived because he was smarter than everyone else. And he was like, no, fuck this shit. Like, Richie was robbed.

51:35
Sean
I. I wholeheartedly agree with you, Sam. And now that I see that as, like, I, you know, sorry, Billy, but I'm not too enthused about you being the final guy.

51:48
Case
So I don't think anyone is with.

51:53
Sam
No, I mean, like, he's fine. Like, he's fine, but he's just.

51:57
Case
He's just there.

51:59
Sean
Yeah.

52:00
Sam
Yeah. He doesn't actually have any characteristics. Like. Like, everyone else has like a. Like, this is actually a very diverse cast and everybody else has, like, a very, like, specific point of view, you know, Even if you don't like them, they all have a specific point of view, you know, like. And it's just so ridiculous because Baldwin's character has no point of view, you know, even, like, Marshall Bell, who. I forget his name in the movie. The character Woods. Woods is a coward. He's a jerk. He's like all of these. But he has a point of view. Like, I was not sorry when he died. I thought he had it coming. But, like, he had a point of view. Like. And I don't know, Like, I just. I think Richie was robbed.

53:00
Sean
Yeah.

53:00
Sam
So I'm saying. So like, even, like. I mean, Jamie Lee Curtis, like, definitely her character was cool. She was. You know, but we didn't need Billy Baldwin.

53:13
Sean
Right? Yeah.

53:16
Sam
You could eliminate his character completely and I don't think it would have made that much of a difference to this film.

53:26
Case
He was a white guy in middle management pretty much.

53:30
Sam
So I would get rid of him completely. The stars are Jamie Lee Curtis and Richie. That's it. Tighten everything up. The Russian scientists can stay. And this is a Mars attack revenge plot from the Galactic Union of Planets, who've decided that Earth is not cool enough to live, but also not important enough to actually invade. So they're just going to download a virus into our computers and turn our machinery against us, to turn us into robots that will then wipe out the planet and take care of us for them because they actually don't have time to invade us with spaceships. That's my pitch. Virus.

54:13
Sean
They phoned it in. The aliens are just phoning it in for this.

54:17
Sam
Honestly, that's my favorite part of this, is that the aliens were like, yeah, you know, they're uncouth, uncivilized. I hate them. Should we go and invade them? No, let's have them kill themselves. I think that's great. I think that's a great story.

54:32
Case
I mean, that's kind of appropriate, especially if it was like. Because, like, that even works for, like, a more sinister one where it's like, they're coming, but they could get the signal here sooner and, like, wipe us out, like, in advance of them. Arriving. It kind of makes me think of the three body problem kind of world where like, being, like being aware of anyone else's existence in space means that they're probably going to get killed immediately. Like, or like being, you know, be like being a public figure in space is like, well, we can't risk you being out there, so we'll just kill you anyway. And so like the politics of space is everyone just like, being quiet and like trying to hide each other, hide themselves as best they can from everyone else.

55:12
Case
Kind of makes me think of that where humanity just by virtue of being on the intergalactic stage is wiped out just because it's like, no, you guys are terrible.

55:24
Sam
What if they just feel like we're kind of like, I don't know, the equivalent of like Mormons. Like, we just keep trying to knock on their door and they've just, they're really tired of our calling cards. Like, they're just really tired of us trying to be like, have you heard our music?

55:40
Case
Yeah, like SETI is like actually just like pissing them off. Like all the, like every signal that we fire off into space is just like, God, will you stop?

55:50
Sam
It's just like, they've had enough. They've just like, had enough. They're like, oh my go. God, they're so annoying.

55:58
Sean
Literally. Sam, I. And a lot similar to a lot of the, you know, theories that you've mentioned about. Well, not just theories, observations that the aliens are just not convincing enough. I couldn't have said that any better. When, when we get to it though, in a moment, my other pass or another pass is going to not really involve the story because I, you know, so much, it's all going to be technical.

56:31
Case
I mean, do you want to take a swing?

56:33
Sam
Go on. Yeah, I'm done.

56:35
Case
Yeah, go for it.

56:36
Sam
Have at it.

56:37
Sean
Wonderful. Thank you both. So I want to, so adjacent to Sam's, you know, perfect way to fix the story. Assuming that this, and of course assuming that the alien laser did not come from the sworn enemy of the Galactic Alliance, Evil Emperor Zurg, it just came from some, you know, extraterrestrial entity. Here's, here's how I would fix the technical, logistical aspect of this movie. First of all, Donnie Sutherland, man, either don't do the accent, commit, do more training, but don't half ass it and just waffle your way going in and out of the accent. And also it comes to mind, could there have possibly been anybody else that we could guide? I told Case a Little bit. When you talk about boat captains of the late 90s in movies, there was a draft for it.

57:50
Sean
Were you going to strike it rich like Bernard Hill in Titanic, or were you going to unfortunately get what happened to Donnie Sutherland in this case? May he rest in peace, by the way. Way too many favorite to count with him.

58:07
Case
But.

58:09
Sean
Was he meant to be in this role? Taking another pass at this is like, I could probably if, like, if I were, you know, had a phone tree to call, you know, of people I wanted, I would first have wanted to call Sean Connery, you know, who didn't even need training for a Scottish accent. Because he is Scottish.

58:31
Case
Right, right.

58:31
Sean
Himself.

58:33
Case
Even when he's playing Egyptian, he's got a Scottish accent.

58:35
Sean
Yeah, I could imagine calling him. And he was going to say, leave me out of this. And what he went to do some weird movie that came out in the late 90s. It's unrelated to Marvel, but there's a movie called the Avengers, which is about people who control the weather. So he went to do that instead. So he's off. I said, okay, well, we had a really great person play the T1000 in Terminator 2. Why not get Robert Patrick and put a beard on him and have him play the captain? Either way, whoever. So I don't know. But if Donnie Sutherland wanted to stick around, please, for the love of God, learn to do a Scottish bro. Or don't just use your normal voice.

59:26
Sean
And so originally I was going to say to cut out the beginning montage or the prologue with the Mir space station altogether because it doesn't show up in the comics. But I do like what Sam was saying. So once keeping the opening of the aliens blasting the Russian space station. And let's go all the way to the scene where woods gets nailed. That pain expression. The most unconvincing display of pain I've seen in movies. If our spectrum is Frodo getting stabbed by a Morgul blade, unfortunately, the poor soul got stabbed and jabbed by a lot of things in those movies. A spider fang, the spear by the cave troll.

01:00:32
Case
Yeah.

01:00:33
Sean
Marshall Bell needs pain expression training. Somebody needed to be on him and say, you gotta show a lot more pain, man.

01:00:42
Case
Well, in the right kind of pain. Because when he gets like. When he gets nailed, it's like. It's like the worst pain ever. But at the same time, it's like, I don't believe you. But it's also like the pain, like, that's a disproportionate response to the injury. That you just received is, like, part of it.

01:01:02
Sean
Right. The dopey thing I, you know, finding is that the narrative of it is that he continues. He walks around, he probably gets like, 15 minutes of screen time with those nails still stuck in his latissimus. And it's actually a little ironic because I do remember a line he said, I can't carry too much, Richie. I got a bad latissimus. And funny enough, that's actually where he gets shot by the nails from the one robot. He gets 15 minutes of screen time. Nobody's tending to him. A lot of people are actually telling him, oh, quit your. Why did Richie. Or something like that, you know, or, you know. And then it's like he says at one point, very tongue in cheek, as if it were Roland Emmerich, who, you know, we got the infamous Roland Emmerich director, right. Director of Independence Day.

01:01:58
Sean
But most people know him for his campy apocalypse movies. It's as if he wrote this part. He's being tongue in cheek and said, could somebody please come over here and see the nails that are stuck in me? And everybody said, oh, stop your whining, Richie. It's like, first he's got to be acting with more pain. He has got to. Got to sell that more. And they got to do a better job tending to his wounds than just Jamie Lee Curtis going over and yanking the nails out of him. Because that's not good for a bleeding wound. Yeah.

01:02:43
Case
I mean, it could be worse. It's not like it's a barbed instrument like it is. The nail is going to be. Just by virtue of the way they're going to be shaped like it. It's not going to tear more as you pull it out. It's just going to leave the hole, which is its own problem. But at least it's not like, you know, like an arrowhead or something like that.

01:03:02
Sean
Right. And then finally, one other big narrative thing I can think of is. And initially, one of the first things I noticed. I will also say that I was high the first time that I watched Virus, and I was giving it initially rapturous, overwhelming praise is like, wow, they're in the eye of a hurricane now. And one of the big plot elements is that they're getting chased down by all these killer robots while the second wall of the hurricane closes in. And then cool story beats.

01:03:44
Case
Like, for sure.

01:03:44
Sean
Yeah, definitely good story beats. And after.

01:03:47
Case
This would be a great video game, I do want to say.

01:03:51
Sean
Oh, and they did. They did try making that. And that even got Fell into obscurity even faster than the movie itself.

01:03:59
Case
But anyway, I didn't mean to cut you off. Sorry.

01:04:01
Sean
No, no worries. When that second wall of the hurricane comes back around. When I was getting into more sober viewings of this movie, I was like, I really don't believe that they're now getting tossed around on the sea again. Because inside, while all the climax is building up, there's not enough, you know, people falling over, stuff falling over. There's not enough boat rocking going on. So it's like they kind of forgot that they're the writers. Kind of forgot that they were writing about the second wall of the hurricane or the typhoon.

01:04:40
Case
Yeah. I mean, if that's more dramatic on Below Deck than on your horror movie about a ship in a hurricane, then you're doing something wrong.

01:04:49
Sean
Yeah. So a lot of my other passes at this movie are all on a technical level. We have great story updates from Sam. My job, I feel now, was to just come in and tell the writers, no on a technical level. And again, Donnie Sutherland, 100% Scottish brogue or not. Or your normal voice. Pick one. Otherwise. Because I didn't really see Donald Sutherland as much of a compelling personality in plenty of other movies I've seen him in. Heck, I was even a lot more compelled by his minor role in Horrible Bosses more than this movie. One other podcast I want to shout out when it comes to people having accent trouble. I was listening to the Almighty Our how did this get made Film podcast. They were talking about the movie gods of Egypt and Jerry Butler or Gerard Butler.

01:05:56
Sean
Yeah, that's already a problematic. Yeah.

01:06:00
Case
From a casting standpoint.

01:06:01
Sean
Casting in and of itself. But it's like, what?

01:06:05
Case
Speaking of a Scotsman playing an Egyptian.

01:06:07
Sean
Scottish accents. I know, right? Scottish accents. And anyway, that movie should never have happened. But that's another story. I think I've just about said all that I needed to say from a technical standpoint in what could have been done to be fixed a little bit in the script, but mostly logistically. Oh, except one last thing. When arguably my most favorite robot, the Big Goliath Robot, which. Okay, shout out to all the puppeteers, robotic technicians, I'm sorry you didn't get your payday because everybody else went in debt from this movie, too. It's like, bless your hearts, you put all your heart and soul into the big robotic scenes. You had some cgi. But to all the people who made the Big Goliath Robot, the final boss, it has a moment that they just need to fix it a little bit.

01:07:15
Sean
In my notes, the part where Jamie Lee Curtis is hanging on for dear life on pipes and the Goliath robot is knocking over stuff and she falls into the pit of gasoline that they're trying to flood the ship with in order to blow it up, you know, to kill everything altogether. One, how does she not burn her eyes out? And then magically somehow the Goliath shows up down there. Assuming it's the same robot, it's a little bit of Jurassic park suspension of disbelief. You know, the whole is like, hey, in the T. Rex paddock, the T. Rex is like standing perfectly over there, but. But somehow a magic cliff. Yeah, cliff appears. So that's the other thing.

01:08:09
Sean
I would just want to make sure that they had clear in their heads when they were going through that they must have been taking their Jurassic park card there because there was a lot of bleed over from Jurassic Park. You had Phil Tippett, you had Universal, you know, and things like that. I think I've said about all of my piece, you know, on it that I can think about.

01:08:37
Case
Sure. All right, well, so we covered a lot of the things that I, I feel about this movie. And like I, I have a lot of notes that were like, well, what if this goes more into the act or more into the horror genre from the action or like from the sci fi action one. Basically taking this from aliens to alien. And my notes for that were ultimately are the easy run on this one. Aside from the opening scene, like the spaceship or space station going down to the Russian ship, that scene needs to happen way later. Like that's, that needs to be a flashback told by what's her face by Nadia.

01:09:16
Sean
Nadia, yeah.

01:09:17
Case
Then, yeah, that needs to be a flashback that she, when she is telling the story of what happens or what happened on the ship. Ship. Not a scene that we see at the beginning because it should just open with them in the hurricane and then us finding this abandoned vessel.

01:09:31
Sean
Exact.

01:09:31
Case
Neat. Like, again, like, I'm glad that the comic book did it that way because that totally makes sense. And like the fact that it's included in the movie the way it is doesn't make sense for a more serious take on this movie. If it is the big campy version and it is like the energy wave, you know, arrives to like establish that like can't trust the Russians or the humans in general and it's, you know, an alien intelligence that is like coming to like wipe us out and we are allowed to know that information, then sure, like have that scene. But if it Needs to be a scarier movie where we need to not know everything going into it. Then it needs to happen later if we're going to do it at all.

01:10:13
Sean
Agreed.

01:10:15
Case
So then, you know, then we get into stronger character development. You know, like, almost everyone feels pretty one dimensional and it makes it difficult to invest in their survival. Like Jamie Lee Curtis in particular. Like, her character, Kit Foster is the protagonist, but she's not very compelling. She doesn't really have an arc to her. You know, she's competent, but doesn't have like anywhere near the depth of like an Ellen Ripley type character.

01:10:40
Sean
Right.

01:10:42
Case
So I think, you know, she needs to have more stakes involved in this. Like, she could be involved, invested in the money situation just like everyone else on the show is apparently.

01:10:51
Sean
Right.

01:10:52
Case
You know, that could be a more invested thing in it. She could have, like, deeper thoughts about, like, I don't know. I don't know how to. How you get her on this. On this, like, tugboat with and have her be like, have real thoughts about like the nature of humanity, but, like, you know, have. Have some money stakes or a relationship with someone on the ship that like, matters beyond. Just like, oh, will they, won't they? With Billy Baldwin, like, you know, do something more with her. Like it's Jimmy goddamn Lee Curtis, like, exactly. Then you brought up Johnny Sutherland, Captain Everton. He is a missed opportunity.

01:11:26
Sean
Yes.

01:11:27
Case
And it happens really abruptly, like with him when he like kind of like gives into the aliens, like, which is kind of fine. He's like supposed to be a bit of a drunk and so forth, but, like, play up the fact that he's kind of like a, you know, this slowly descending into madness, like, drunkard. You know, when he's like trying to assassinate himself or, you know, kill himself, suicide, you know, when he. When he's trying to do that, unalive himself. When that, when that happens, you could. You can start with him being crazy and just like continue to go down that path. Now, here's the thing. I think that there aren't too many characters in this movie. I think we actually have about the right number. I think they're just underdeveloped enough that it feels like there's too many characters.

01:12:07
Case
Because I was thinking about it and it's like, no, it's actually like about the right number of people. You just need to have character traits for them. They need to have. I brought up the candy scene from Die Hard. We just need to have more moments like that because eventually you've got Richie, who is really cool and you've really gotten into him. And Squeaky's got a thing. But even Cliff Curtis, his main deal is that he's a minority. You know, like. And that's sort of like, okay, well, that makes him distinct in this movie. Whereas, like, he doesn't really have, like, a lot of, like, story points that sort of separate him. And then a lot of it. My notes are like. Like, this should be more horror. Like, build. Build on all of that. Like, we could do more with the setting.

01:12:53
Case
It could be more of a Die Hard type situation. Like, we. I. I think that we don't have, like, a good geography of the ship. Ship, like, in our heads.

01:13:01
Sean
Yeah.

01:13:02
Case
Like, we. We as the audience. And I think that's a problem, especially with, like, how impressive the ship is supposed to be. Like, with all these, like, bays of, like, engineer, like, manufacturing bays and, like, electronics sections and, like, you know, all these, like, sections of the ship. Like, I think that it would be really cool to, like, to really get a sense of it and the scenes exist. They just don't really do a good job of, like, connecting the dots of the, like. Like, where all the parts of the boat are.

01:13:30
Sean
Yeah.

01:13:31
Case
And maybe they couldn't because, like, they're actually shooting on, like, a real, like, Russian, like, old Russian ship. And, like, it's, you know, like, maybe, like, they. They're cheating a lot to make it look like it's like this impressive technical marvel. So maybe that's just impossible. But, you know, it. It would just be nice because then you could really. Yeah, same. You know, I'm bringing up the Die Hard comparison again. Like, Die Hard. One of the benefits is that you have a really good sense of what the layout of that building is by the end of the movie. Like, you know, what every floor is, you know, like, where, like, things like McLean, like, tapping, like, the Playboy poster that's, like, stuck up on, like, one of the vents that he, like, comes through.

01:14:09
Case
Like, that becomes, like, a lucky thing for him over the course of it because it's become established as, like, a location for him to, like, visit as he's, like, moving around inside the. Inside the building. And in this case, the ship should have a similar kind of vibe.

01:14:24
Sean
Right. I think one thing I want to add to the ship element case is that it, again, is for all the parts, they used a real ship because sometimes there were miniatures in different shots that were filmed, but the ship was the same one that had been used in the Abyss. And they just painted the Russian name Vladislav Volkov. On the side of it.

01:14:49
Sam
It.

01:14:49
Sean
And probably my most favorite scene, which is an action scene. I'm still very much an action junkie, is where the virus controls the anchor to drop it through the tugboat.

01:15:02
Case
Oh, yeah.

01:15:03
Sean
And sink it. That was a decent action scene, I will actually say. Yeah. So kind of going off of what you were saying about we do need a better layout of the ship. Yeah.

01:15:16
Case
Once they lose the tug, this ship should be like. We should have a really good sense of what the map of the boat looks like, Right?

01:15:25
Sean
Yeah. Donnie Sutherland, may he rest in peace, does not sell that part where he's like, well, I don't know much about computers, but that's anchor. It's like, dude, you know what it's going to do? It said. It literally says it's going to drop the anchor. You need to be running out to the deck saying, get out. Get out the way.

01:15:45
Case
Well, he's the terrible also, so.

01:15:47
Sean
Oh, yeah, that's true. He's a terrible drunk. Yeah. So there we go.

01:15:52
Case
Yeah. So then I have notes about pacing and suspense. Like, the movie kind of rushes a bunch of scenes. Part of this, I think, is that we have that opening prologue, and I think if that's removed, it's gonna make it a bit more mysterious so that we can spend some more time with the alien being kind of like this unknown thing. And we sort of realize that something's going on as opposed to just knowing ahead of time that something's going on. You know, the final act is, like, extremely chaotic.

01:16:20
Sean
Yeah.

01:16:21
Case
It could be interesting if Kit had to do more. Like, if she was, like, slightly assimilated or, you know, had like, some real scars from her being captured briefly. That could be cool. And then just like I would if in the serious version of this, we still need theme of humans as virus to be explored more. Like, it's not going to be like our alien overlords or something, but it could be through images and maybe a little bit of text from their interaction with the creature that it has. That it is here as antivirus or that it is assessing or that it has assessed humanity as a virus and give some examples to provide it. Like, the fact that Avengers did it better is kind of sad, admittedly it's, you know, a decade later, but still, like, yeah.

01:17:15
Sean
You know what also did it better? The movie Arrival with Amy Adams. And I forget who else that was. Like, before Denis Villeneuve made Dune, he had Arrival. That. That movie did it better, too.

01:17:29
Case
Yeah. But I mean, well, A Denis Ville movie is like a hard thing to measure this one up against.

01:17:36
Sean
Right, Exactly.

01:17:37
Case
I'm just saying that, like, the fact of the matter is, like, they have this theme and again, it's the same theme that they talk about in the Matrix the same year. So it's in the Zeitgeist. Like the idea that humanity is just a virus that's expanding and destroying everything. Like, if humanity was coming to a thesis at the end of the 90s, that might have been it. And maybe that's a good one that we should have thought more about, spend some time with it. Like, like there's one scene where like that theoretically is the point of the, like the name of the movie and why the creature is doing anything or the entity or whatever you want to call it, if it's not a virus itself, you know, or it could be it's a virus, but it's like, no, I, I'm not the virus.

01:18:17
Case
You're the virus. Like, and again, I'm trying to like, keep this, like, subtle and like, maybe through images or something like that so that we're not getting a ton of like the, that we're keeping it, like, relatively serious. If we're going the horror route is, I guess, what I'm trying to get at here.

01:18:34
Sean
Yeah.

01:18:34
Case
Because the camp route, like, we can go all nuts about this one. Yes, should. And I have to say I'm more excited about the camp route. I'm giving my notes that were my first set of notes on this one, but I'm way more excited about this being a big, goofy action movie with weird robot human hybrids running around this big vessel and having it be kind of well lit and having the animatronics be really good because they did really good work. So just allow us to see it and like, you know, lean into it being like, just kind of goofy and dumb. I am more here for a movie than like a really serious, like, horror movie version of this. So that's, I, I guess, like where I'm kind of like taking it. But yeah, so that's, that's mine.

01:19:21
Case
And I feel like we are ours all kind of like intertwine into basically just like the two themes of like, do we. Do we take it big or do we take it, you know, scary.

01:19:30
Sean
Yeah. And I, I, when you say the campy route, also case, like, literally the other night I also watched the spirit Halloween store horror movie, and you can't really call it a horror movie. It's just supposed to basically be a Goosebumps ripoff. And of course, I laughed during it. Christopher Lloyd, of all people, playing a role in it made me cackle because of his characterizations. This movie needed to be that.

01:20:08
Case
That kind of camp. Yeah.

01:20:10
Sean
I wish I got more laughs in the end.

01:20:12
Case
Yeah.

01:20:13
Sean
Out of Virus.

01:20:15
Case
Yeah. It. Because there's moments where it's, like, kind of unintentionally funny as it is. Right.

01:20:22
Sean
Yeah.

01:20:23
Case
And it's not a lot. It's not. It's not so much that it's egregious. It's not so much that it makes this movie funny. Like, that's the thing. This movie is, like, just kind of mid.

01:20:31
Sean
It's, what, perfect for my. For. For my spot. Right, Right.

01:20:36
Case
But it's also perfect for us to take another pass at it. So, Sean, thank you for bringing this movie because I think this was a lot of fun for us to discuss. I. I think this was a really cool one and I'm glad that I saw it because it. It's like, again, it's. It's very mid. Like, there's a lot of. There's a lot to, like, forget about it, but, like, there's some. There's some really good animatronics going on in here and, like, it's worth, like, seeing just for that and, you know, being reminded about, like, just how punchable Billy Baldwin is. I'm sorry, man. I don't know why. I don't know why. I just, like, just so. So infuriated that you're there. So. Yeah. So, Sean, thank you for. For bringing this. Where can people find you and follow you?

01:21:15
Case
Like, give all your plugs, like, who are you?

01:21:17
Sean
Thank you, Case and Sam. So thank once again, folks. I have been Sean Muir. I can be found. The first and foremost Instagram profile I want to plug is my profile called Movie Midness. I've had it for about a year and it's just kind of my thought space for movies. I kind of do some short form other content, recreating some different movie scenes with little toys. I am a train nerd. I am a model train. Train guy. And a lot of the content on my Movie Midnis profile is me recreating a few movie scenes with my train layout. But I have a pretty wide variety of movies that I have chronicled on Movie Midness, the Instagram profile. You can also find me on letterboxd with the same name.

01:22:15
Sean
There are a lot of movies I talk about on my letterboxd that I don't even mention on my Instagram. They don't have posts, but I pretty frequently update the story on my Instagram. So there are a lot of things movies on there. So you can find me Movie Midness on Instagram. You can find me Movie Midness on Letterboxd. I've also recently changed my YouTube profile name from Sean Muir to Movie Midness just to make sure that across all those platforms I can claim it before anybody else dare or dream of claiming it themselves. So I wanted to jump on that. So on YouTube, if you type in Movie Midness, you should see a picture of me holding a pair of drumsticks. And there's As a musician too, I do a lot of musical things. You'll find lots of stuff on there.

01:23:08
Sean
And there's a video of me playing a Billy Idol song called Shock to the System, which is probably the only good song from his Cyberpunk album that's on Instagram. So that's how you can find me.

01:23:23
Case
Nice. Nice. Yeah, people should definitely check out your Instagram feed and just check out all your thoughts on Letterboxd. Good stuff. So glad again to have you on. This has been a ton of fun. Sam, if people wanted to find you and follow you, where could they?

01:23:39
Sam
Well, they can find me here at Another Pass or when we do our app Episodes. Another Pass, Add another Pass Episodes. And occasionally when I remember that our Discord exists, they can find me there lurking in their comments, making sure that they've actually listened to the episodes. But if you have any complaints about my statements about Billy Baldwin and how he was useless in this movie and shouldn't be there, if you're a huge fan of him, you can lodge all your complaints with Case at.

01:24:13
Case
Well, you can launch those complaints at wherever you find me at Case Aiken on all the socials, but especially Blue sky these days, except for Instagram where I am holding on to my AIM screen name for Dear Life. So there's that. But you know what? I stand by the Billy Baldwin slander. So we're gonna so come at me. You can find me on all those platforms at Case Aiken or on our Discord server where I am there frequently. And there are great conversations going on our Discord. So find a link to our Discord server either in the Show Notes or On our website certainpov.com you can come and join us for great conversations and also interact with some of the great shows on our network.

01:24:52
Case
Before we do plugs, I need to do some thank yous because we have a Patreon going now and that is awesome. This show has been going for 176 episodes now, and that is really cool. But it's kind of nice that we actually have some supporters. And so we need to thank the people who have joined at the executive producer level. If you want to support the show the way these people do, you can go to patreon.com certainpovmedia and support us. But for right now, let's thank the following people we want to thank Micah McCaw, Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, Lee Greger, Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Mastropiera, Casey and Nancy Aiken, Adam Sampter and Keith Lettinen. Thank you to all of them for being wonderful supporters. But even if you join at the free tier, there's still bonus content that we're putting out there.

01:25:45
Case
So check out the Patreon. We're doing clips of the episodes ahead of time now. We're doing essays that I'm putting out twice a week at this point about nerd topics and D stuff. But yeah, check that out. And now plugs. So I am going to shout out Books that Burn, which is a wonderful literature podcast. Robin and Nicole do a fantastic job assessing the characters from the perspective of if the characters are rational actors and it's just the author that is abusing them in what way? What's going on there? What kind of trauma are they enduring? And this is a fantastic series and it's really wonderful to check out.

01:26:28
Case
Robin has been doing a lot of activism recently in the wake of, well, yeah, everything in the United States going on and has been doing a lot to like, make sure that people have access to information that has been difficult to find as government websites have had information on like gender identity and trans identity being scrubbed away. And so they've been doing a lot of that on their website links that burn and I do want to plug that so check that out. It's a great resource. Yeah, that's the thing that I want to plug right now because the world is on fire. How is yours?

01:27:05
Sean
I love that reference there.

01:27:07
Case
But yeah, otherwise. Sam, what have we got on the slate for next time?

01:27:14
Sam
Next time we'll be talking about Highlander 2 the Quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed the this Pass it on.

01:27:26
Case
Thanks for listening to Certain Point of View's Another Pass podcast. Don't miss an episode, just subscribe and review the show on itunes. Just go to certainpov.com Another pass is.

01:27:39
Sam
A certain POV production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sophia Richardi. Our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken, our intro theme is by Vin Macri and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.

01:27:58
Case
Certainpov.Com.