Another Pass at Shazam! Fury of the Gods
This week on Another Pass, Sam and Case are joined by Zorikh Lequidre to revisit Shazam! Fury of the Gods. We break down the sequel’s mythic swing, its tonal tightrope between family comedy and divine spectacle, and whether this lightning strike deserved a brighter fate at the box office.
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Another Pass Full Episode Originally aired: February 13, 2026
Music by Vin Macri and Matt Brogan
Podcast Edited by Sophia Ricciardi
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Notes
Shazam Franchise and Character Legacy
The discussion highlighted the complex evolution of the Shazam character and its multiple incarnations, emphasizing the challenges of maintaining clarity in the franchise (02:00).
Complex Character History and Naming (02:43)
The Shazam character has undergone multiple renamings, now sometimes called "The Captain" to differentiate from original versions.
Comics have introduced variants like Mary Marvel and Junior (Freddie Freeman’s hero name) to expand the lore.
The character’s fluctuating comic presence, with cancellations and restarts, impacts fan engagement and continuity.
Zorak’s project, Captain Marvel Culture, explores these variants in cultural and historical contexts, highlighting the character’s societal relevance.
Actor and Fan Perspectives on Shazam (07:30)
Sam Alicea shared her positive cosplay experience as Mary Marvel, emphasizing the character’s wholesome reception in fandom.
Both Sam and Case Aiken noted that the first Shazam movie was colorful and fun, appealing to casual viewers with good pacing and humor.
Case's personal connection to the character goes back to childhood superhero creations, reinforcing the deep fan roots.
The first film balanced the youthful and superhero personas well, unlike the sequel where the older cast created dissonance.
Challenges with Sequel Timing and Casting (14:00)
The four-year gap between the first and second Shazam movies caused problematic aging of the cast, making the characters less believable as teenagers.
The COVID-19 pandemic limited crowd scenes, affecting the movie’s atmosphere and fight sequences, leading to a “COVID movie” feel with socially distanced extras.
The sequel’s timing made character maturity inconsistent, with Zachary Levi’s older age conflicting with immature superhero behavior, reducing audience sympathy.
The lack of continuity in character growth and the absence of younger kid scenes weakened the family dynamic established in the first film.
Plot, Powers, and Mythological Elements
The movie’s story and mythological adaptations were discussed, focusing on the Daughters of Atlas and their powers, plus how mythology was reinterpreted (28:58).
Invented Mythology and Powers of Atlas’ Daughters (29:00)
The film introduced three daughters of Atlas, a creative deviation from classical mythology that was accepted as a fun concept.
Helen Mirren’s character uses force fields and telekinesis, Lucy Liu’s character employs “chaos” powers resembling mind control, and Rachel Zegler’s character has axis-based powers, visually impressive but not well explained.
The powers were often scene-dependent rather than consistent, especially Helen Mirren’s varying abilities.
The dome barrier served as a plot device to isolate the final fight and prevent intervention from other heroes, a trope common in superhero films.
Mythology vs. Comic Lore (31:33)
The movie used traditional Shazam power origins (Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles, Mercury) rather than newer comic variations.
Discussion considered linking the characters to the broader DC mythos, such as the New Gods, but the film stuck to simpler concepts.
The film’s magic and powers were occasionally connected to Dungeons & Dragons references, reflecting the script’s mix of fantasy influences.
The casting of iconic actors like Helen Mirren and Lucy Liu added gravitas despite the powers being plot-driven.
Narrative and Visual Critiques of Powers and Effects (35:00)
The dome and powers’ visual effects felt forced or inconsistent, serving more as story contrivances than meaningful world-building.
The chaotic power, mainly mind control, lacked thematic clarity despite being the most consistent.
The movie struggled to integrate powers into the plot logically, often introducing new abilities at convenience moments.
The limited impact of the dome on the city was noted, with little attention to realistic consequences of such an event.
Family Dynamics and Character Development
A major theme was how the sequel mishandled the Shazam family dynamic, focusing too much on superhero forms and not enough on the kids’ human sides (40:00).
Underused Supporting Characters and Forced Representation (40:00)
Pedro’s gay reveal felt forced due to minimal screen time and lack of character development.
The less prominent kids, especially Eugene and Pedro, were overshadowed by their superhero forms, weakening emotional engagement.
Darla remained the heart of the family, carrying much of the emotional weight and humor, consistent with the first film.
The sequel relied heavily on superhero personas rather than showing genuine child characters, harming the family’s relatability.
Mismatch of Actor Ages and Character Portrayals (46:30)
The aging cast, particularly Zachary Levi, struggled to convincingly portray teenage characters, making immature behavior less palatable.
The lack of contrasting younger versions of Billy and other kids reduced the dynamic tension present in the original movie.
The sequel missed chances to explore Billy’s growth and his struggles with leadership and abandonment issues meaningfully.
Sam noted the film’s good attempt to show Billy’s fear of aging out of foster care as a motivation, but this was not fully developed.
Lost Opportunities for Emotional Payoff (53:00)
The film failed to create a satisfying emotional journey for Billy, especially regarding his insecurities and leadership challenges.
The family’s support was underutilized in key moments, leaving Billy’s character arc feeling incomplete.
The sequel lacked the sense of belonging and acceptance that made the first film’s family dynamic resonate.
Case and Sam suggested that a powerful second-act scene showing Billy’s vulnerability and the family’s encouragement was needed to strengthen the story.
Critique and Proposed Fixes for the Sequel
The panel proposed several realistic improvements to the sequel’s structure, pacing, and character focus to enhance its emotional and narrative impact (56:00).
Strengthening the Second Act and Family Bonding (56:00)
Add scenes where the kids remain in their human forms to highlight their vulnerabilities, creating richer character moments.
Insert a confrontation scene where Billy expresses frustration at the family’s lack of unity, followed by reassurance from siblings.
Shorten or remove the cringy Wonder Woman date scene to maintain tone and pacing.
Show more of the lesser-used kids at school, depicting their struggles balancing normal life and superhero identities.
Improving the Final Battle with the Dragon (31:30, 56:00, 01:32:50)
Make the fight more dynamic by having Billy repeatedly say “Shazam” to power up the staff, requiring him to transform back to human form intermittently.
Introduce stages in the fight where the hero tries different tactics, fails, then devises a winning plan.
Include moments of vulnerability where Billy dodges attacks and avoids damage, adding tension and realism.
Use the environment inside the dome better, possibly including some civilians or other stakes, if COVID protocols allow.
Enhancing Character Scenes and Emotional Arcs (01:40:00)
Show the kids’ defeat when Helen Mirren’s character escapes by turning back into their child forms, emphasizing their youth and fallibility.
Add a scene where Billy admits to failure and receives encouragement from his siblings, reinforcing the family theme.
Develop more natural, character-driven moments such as a school scene involving Skittles, tying in humor and personality.
Streamline the plot to reduce the number of major events, allowing more screen time for character interactions and growth.
Long-Term Franchise Vision: TV Series Format (01:14:30, 01:49:00)
The panel agreed a TV series would better suit the story, allowing the actors to age naturally and explore the characters in depth.
Proposed dividing the cast so Billy, Mary, and Freddie attend college while the younger kids remain in high school, creating parallel storylines.
This approach resembles a “Happy Days with superpowers” format, supporting gradual character evolution and maintaining audience engagement.
The TV format would also allow passing powers to new kids as the original characters grow up, ensuring franchise longevity.
Production Context and External Influences
The discussion recognized COVID-19’s major impact on production, release timing, and overall movie quality, affecting creative decisions and execution (14:00, 01:52:00).
COVID-19 Pandemic Effects (14:00)
Production delays and social distancing protocols limited extras and crowd scenes, affecting the movie’s atmosphere and fight choreography.
The necessity of a smaller dome and fewer characters in scenes was a direct result of COVID restrictions.
The four-year gap between movies was unplanned but forced by the pandemic, causing casting and story continuity issues.
These factors contributed to the movie feeling disjointed and less cohesive compared to the first film.
Script and Franchise Challenges (25:00)
Multiple script rewrites were needed after Dwayne Johnson’s Black Adam was spun off into his own movie, forcing major plot changes.
The absence of Black Adam as a villain removed a key expected antagonist, weakening the sequel’s threat level and fan expectations.
The movie was released amid DC’s shifting cinematic universe plans, reducing the likelihood of future sequels or franchise expansion.
Despite plans to connect with the Justice Society and tease Mr. Mind, these elements remained unresolved, signaling franchise uncertainty.
Casting and Political Context (01:06:00)
Gal Gadot’s performance as Wonder Woman was noted as uneven and disconnected from the main cast’s energy.
The panel acknowledged Gadot’s political stances have affected her reception among some fans, adding complexity to her role’s acceptance.
The awkwardness of Billy’s romantic scene with Wonder Woman was criticized for tone and appropriateness, detracting from character coherence.
Zachary Levi’s personal controversies and public persona complicated audience reception of his performance, especially given the film’s tonal demands.
Transcript
00:00
Case
And if you're not going to do that, then have the next best thing is have his human form come into play a little bit in the fight. Not. Not again. Like, this is a Captain Marvel fight.
00:08
Zorikh
Maybe throw in some innocent civilians.
00:12
Case
Also a possibility. I think that they were having issues with that because of this being a Covid movie. Like, there's only so many civilians and like that final fight getting. I think they wanted to not have to deal with. I wonder if there was a reason.
00:26
Sam
For the dome because then no one would be inside and you wouldn't have to worry about, let's put a dome and then make it smaller and then we don't have to put people inside of it. Oh, that's a great idea. Woohoo. No social distancing.
00:45
Case
Welcome to certain POV's Another Pass podcast with Case and Sam where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Another Past podcast. I'm Case Aiken and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alicea. Hi, Sam. We are digging into a movie today that I have been excited to chat about because it's a property I love. Like, this is my favorite superhero property we're talking about.
01:20
Sam
I feel like when you see this, people are going to be so shocked. I think all of our regular symbols. Like what? He's excited to talk about this. No, never. Oh my God. Totally not his alley at all.
01:34
Case
No, that's true.
01:35
Sam
This character at all. Or any other related property at all. So total shocker, guys. Brace yourself. Brace yourself.
01:43
Case
Yeah, so brace yourself. Today we are talking about Shazam. Fury of the gods, aka Shazam 2. And to have a conversation about a Captain Marvel movie, because I'm going to be calling him Captain Marvel quite a bit on this call because I am an old school Captain Marvel. The Big Red Cheese fan. We are joined by a great fan of the Big Red Cheese. We're joined by Captain Zorak.
02:06
Zorikh
That's right. And here's the thing. I choose to call the character in the movie, the character that they called him in the movie because he is different enough from the original Captain Marvel that by simply calling him by the name by which they refer to him, saves time in explaining which variant of the original Captain Marvel he is.
02:29
Case
Yes. Man, this movie does a lot of damage in terms of keeping it straight in people's heads because the comics have even given up on the whole Shazam Thing. They've called him The Captain now.
02:38
Zorikh
The Captain now. They even had one moment where somebody said we could call him Captain Martin and gets interrupted. And the actor who played Billy Batson on tv, Michael Gray, popped up in his red and yellow customade shirt and said, hooray for Captain Marvel. So they got that out there.
02:55
Case
Yes.
02:56
Zorikh
You know, and Mary, they. DC found justification to get Mary's superhero Persona be named Mary Marvel. So they got that done. And I'm. And in a recent issue, somebody did actually call Freddie Freeman's superhero variant Junior. So they're working their way through. But in comics currently, which. And there haven't been any Shazam Comics for a few months now, the. The other Shazam kids, Pedro and Eugene and Darla, have lost their ability to transform. And we don't know if they'll ever get those abilities back. But there. But Darla had a very significant role to play in this movie that I liked. And I also have a. It may be a fan fiction dream, but it would have been so perfect when this guy shows up.
03:53
Case
Right.
03:54
Zorikh
That Darla would play. Because Darla's last name is the same last name as the fake. As the fake Uncle Marvel. That Darla would serve the role, would serve the job of that Uncle Marvel played in the first and only Golden Age appearance of Black Adam to defeat him. Because she's the smart one.
04:21
Case
Yes. Okay. So, as you like, eventually got there, but I was just gonna say out loud for listeners at home, Zorix stood up and is wearing a black Adam T shirt. I think I have the same black Adam T shirt, but, like, he's decked out in Captain Marvel paraphernalia at the moment. He's got the Marvel Captain Marvel jacket going. He's got the DC Shazam symbol right there in the black Adam T shirt. So here's why I wanted Zorek to be on the call, because Zorek and I knew each other in the New York Brooklyn comedy scene. Like, we met at a Rift Tracks event years and years ago. But I knew that Zoric was a giant Captain Marvel fan.
04:57
Case
And so, Zork, why don't we just set up a little bit about who you are and what your interest in the character is, and then we'll talk about the movie a bit. Okay.
05:05
Zorikh
Okay. Well, I was born in a log cat. No. Yes. I'm a lifelong New Yorker. And when I was very young, I asked my mom who her favorite superhero was, and she said it was Captain Marvel. And with our good luck, that was 1974, I believe. And there. There was the tabloid sized edition of Shazam. The one with Jackson Bostwick on the COVID And within spitting distance of that date was the 100 page Shazam book that had all the reprints in it that was dedicated to the seven deadly enemies of man, which was a great way to introduce a new reader to Captain Marvel, the Marvel family and all that. And so I was always a fan. As the years went by, I, you know, kept on collecting comic books, watching how.
05:54
Zorikh
And as Captain Marvel, as DC's Captain Marvel kept on getting canceled and then restarted and canceled and disappearing and not being there, I kept on watching for them and researching them. And then when the Internet happened, I thought maybe I can make some money by teaching a course. And somebody suggested teach a course on the history of soup of comic books. And like, that's really big. However, thinking about that there are all these Marvel Comics Captain Marvels. Why don't I just do a course about the history of the many Captain Marvels? Because unlike Marvel, Captain Marvel is the most important name of a superhero in comic books to follow. Because unlike your Superman, Batman, Spider Man, Wonder Woman and everybody else who all evolved over time, every Captain Marvel was created from scratch to serve the market of their day.
06:47
Zorikh
So just to figure out who was Captain Marvel when and why, you basically got to tell the story of comic books and while you're at it, tell the story of America and other countries around the world. And so I'm working on a project called Captain Marvel Culture, which basically, by which basically does just that. We go through the history of all the Captain Marvels and how they relate sociologically and historically to our culture.
07:09
Case
Yeah, so again, perfect. Jumping off point for a conversation about a Captain Marvel movie. Even if it's Shazam and even if it's like there's so many things, it's so far afield in so many ways from the original like whiz comics character, but at the same time it is still like sharing some of that lifeblood. And so it's. It's hard not to at least be interested in how it does. I will say, what are your thoughts on the first one actually, for both of you? Because we talked about the first Shazam Movie quite a bit on Men of Steel, my Superman podcast, but we haven't talked about it that much on here. So. Zork, you were just talking. Let's give you a break. Sam, what is your experience with the Shazam property and with the first Shazam movie and this movie for that matter?
07:49
Sam
So, you know, for Me, I was not very familiar with Captain Marvel from DC at all until my friend Vash actually decided that he wanted to cosplay as Captain Marvel and have Mimi Mara Marvel, which, by the way, was my favorite cosplay to do because everyone was so nice to Mary. I mean, like, literally, like, I can't even tell you some characters when you're dressed up like them and you're a woman. They're so sexualized. Like, I will never, ever cosplay as Black Cat again. The amount of disrespect that people thought that they could do while I was in that cast in that costume was insane. But Mary was my favorite because everyone treated me like I was their special sister. Like, it was like people were like, oh my God, it's Mary. Mary Marvel. Like, every.
08:43
Sam
Like, it was so interesting, the amount of like, kid sister reverence I had. Like, like people literally were looking at me like I was part of their family. Like, so nice. So after that I was like, oh, wow, this is so wholesome. And I did read a couple of comics, but I wasn't quite as into it. So when went to see the first film, I enjoyed it because it was colorful. It had a lighter tone than a lot more of the DC movies. And you know how I felt about the Snyder diverse. I just. Too dark for me. Not really my. My bag. I also just like color in movies. Please, no more sepia tone stuff. Just putting that into the universe. But so, like, the first movie I actually thought was fun because the kids were actually great.
09:29
Sam
There were good jokes and the pacing was good, you know, and so it was like a light hearted film for a person that was not deep in lore. Right. Like, I didn't have to contend with any historical or personal feelings about these characters or the origins of that. This second film for me kind of dragged on and I think it really suffered by the kids being a lot older and the space between the two movies and we'll get into it, but I did go see it in theater for sure. And I just. There were a lot of decisions that were made that I was like. So for me it kind of dragged on. But, you know, I think I disliked it more when I saw it in theater rather than when I rewatched it this time.
10:17
Sam
And I think maybe like a little bit of time and distance was like, oh, it wasn't as bad as I felt when I walked out. But I think I was disappointed because I thought the first movie was fun and that this one wasn't.
10:29
Case
Yeah, I'll just jump in with my own experience with the property and with the first movie and then this one in a nutshell, which is I got into Captain Marvel being comic book nut, but even before I knew who Captain Marvel was, I had created a character that was basically Captain Marvel. I. As a kid, I remember creating a superhero named Lightning man that was red with a lightning bolt symbol and was basically Superman, but with. But had the shtick of being a kid who could turn into an adult because it was a fantasy of me when I was like, four. And so I was always primed to, like, this character.
11:01
Case
And then when I finally encountered him, roughly when the Power of Shazam series was running from Jerry Ordway, just to put some dates on this one, that's when I, like, truly fell in love with the character. That graphic novel that Ordway put out was just so fabulous. And just, like. I just, like, became transfixed with this character after, like, brief, you know, because he was appearing a little bit in the early 90s. Like, he appeared in the. The DC Marvel crossover, which I think is my first time actually, like, seeing him for sure, just because, like, he. There have been doubt or there have been gaps.
11:32
Case
I. I recently did a video on our YouTube channel where I was doing commentary about my Superman analog stuff, and I noted that the common state of a Captain Marvel fan is that the book has been recently canceled and that we're kind of bummed about it, but at the same time, there wasn't enough support to keep the book going. And that's sort of the.
11:48
Zorikh
The. I bought every issue.
11:50
Case
Exactly. Same, same. But, like, that's the thing. There's only us. And it just doesn't keep up as well as. As it used to when the character was the most popular comic book character in the world. And so I was a fan in the. In the 80s or in the 90s is when I got into my fandom of the character and stuck with the character super hardcore. And when the first movie came out, I think it does a really good job. I think that like. Like Sam said, it's bright, it's colorful. It overly emphasizes the whole, like, he's a boy. It's big, you know, with the, like, the. The shtick of a kid being trapped into the adult body, which isn't always the case for the Shazam Property, like, in the 40s.
12:32
Case
There is a lot of evidence to support the fact that this is a character who is two separate individuals. It's not 100% evidence, but they're.
12:40
Zorikh
It's completely in there. They actually have a couple of stories.
12:43
Case
In which, well, they're separated. Yeah.
12:45
Zorikh
They actually talk to each other. Yeah.
12:48
Case
Like when he. When he, like, sheets on the college exam by having Captain Marvel, like, tell him the answers. Like, not even that.
12:54
Zorikh
We're talking about when Captain Marvel was dating the girl Billy Batson would say, damn it, Captain Marvel, I got to get some rest. You're. You're out with this girl every night. Shazam. And Captain Marvel goes, oh, Bill, you're just jealous. You don't know what it means to be in love. Shazam. In love. She's. She's just a gold digger using you for your popularity. Shazam. Oh, stop. Stop being that you. You're. You just don't want me to be happy. You're just jealous.
13:16
Case
So I. What I would argue is that while there is a ton of evidence that supports the case, there's also evidence to the contrary where it sort of indicates that they are the same person at times. There are scenes where they're sort of played off similarly. And certainly. And this is the thought experiment I went through recently, which is Black Adam, if they are separate people, and if Black ad a separate person from Teth Adam, who was transformed, then in his one golden age story, an innocent man dies.
13:42
Zorikh
Well, yeah, but that was back in the 40s, and people could kill people. But no, even we don't have to overthink this because it was magic in a comic book.
13:50
Case
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that's. That's why I'm not too worried about it. That's why the. The different versions of it. I like the. The Ordway version, for example, I really love. Because it was the whispering of the gods in his ears that he. So he had, like, a little bit of a different personality as an adult. Like, he had the wisdom of Solomon whispering in his ears at all times. And that, I thought was a really good way of sort of balancing out the different takes on it, because, like, when he's straight up a kid like he is in this movie, it's uncomfortable at times. Like, you know, he's just not as capable of a superhero as you're sort of hoping for. But I think they did a pretty good job balancing it in the first movie. This one, I think they go overboard.
14:26
Case
And like, Sam says, the cast is too old.
14:31
Zorikh
They're not kids anymore. They waited too long.
14:34
Case
No, like. And that's the big problem with this movie. Like, it's four years after the first one.
14:41
Zorikh
There was all that time that they could have Been doing stories. Maybe they should have made it as a TV series instead of movies.
14:48
Case
Yeah. I mean, like, let's be honest here. Like, and let's just get into the larger conversation about the movie then. Like, this is a. This is such a fucking Covid movie. Like, it came out in 2023, and if you look at any goddamn shot, every crowd shot, the crowds are socially.
15:02
Zorikh
Distanced and noticed that.
15:05
Case
Yeah, I like rewatching it. I was like, man, like, yeah, like, there are people who get close together, but that's because you have COVID protocols. But, like, almost every group is at most four people, and then they have at least six feet between them and anyone else. And that's part of what slowed down the production on this. Like, the first one came out in 2019.
15:26
Zorikh
There it is that. Yeah.
15:28
Case
So there's lots of issues that go into this movie, but, like. But the biggest thing that actually really hurts this as. As a cohesive work with the first movie is that it is so much later. Like, I rewatched the first one today after rewatch or after rewatching the second one while I was taking notes, and then just the immediate juxtaposition of the kids between movie one and movie two and seeing just, like, how much the aging has occurred for. For all these people. Like, Darla doesn't feel that bad when you're watching the movie in a vacuum. Like, when you're watching Shazam 2 by itself. But when you watch it next to, like, next to her appearance in Shazam 1, it's like, man, she's so much older. And, like, everyone's so much older in this movie.
16:13
Sam
So much.
16:14
Case
Yeah. Like, I mean, Mary's so much older in it that they didn't even bother having a separate actress, which is probably the right call. Like, we. We all.
16:22
Zorikh
You looked that up.
16:23
Case
What do you mean?
16:24
Zorikh
I mean, you looked at it in the cast. They didn't have a separate actress for.
16:28
Case
It in Shazam 1. Mary has two actresses in Shazam 2. It's the same actress.
16:32
Zorikh
It is.
16:33
Case
Oh, it's great. It's Grace Curry the whole time.
16:35
Zorikh
Oh, all right. Missed that they changed their hair or something.
16:39
Case
Yeah, they. Well, one. One thing they do is that they make her noticeably more enhanced in a certain area in. In her. Actually in both costumes. Like, I was. I was observing this one, and I'm not trying to be like, man, I was just staring at her boobs the whole time. But, like, I've seen pictures of this actress outside of the context of this movie. Like, I Follow her on Instagram. I followed the entire cast of this movie on Instagram. And they, like, she's just not that developed.
17:07
Sam
Right?
17:07
Case
Like, and it's. It's kind of uncomfortable that even in her, like, kid sister format, like, they're still, like, over emphasizing, like, certain details, and it's just like, okay, cool.
17:17
Sam
Yeah, it is weird. It's.
17:20
Zorikh
Yeah.
17:21
Sam
Yeah. I mean, I think the other thing about the. The timing of this film is they clearly, like, this movie's coming out four years, but, like, these events should have happened right after because the thing that sets it off is Billy breaking the staff. And that happens in the last movie. And so now you've waited four years. Like, I feel like they had a script and they were like, well, we'll just roll with it. Like, instead of being like, oh, too much time has gone on, let's rethink this and maybe, like, rewrite, like, what we're gonna do with this film.
17:56
Sam
Like, what the motivation is, because had this film come out a year or two after then the kids would have been closer in age and you would have had, like, it would have felt more plausible because these Titans, you know, the Titans, daughters showing up four years after the fact. You had four years and the barrier was broken and you were just like, oh, I just figured it out now.
18:22
Case
Well, they were socially distancing in Olympus as well, actually.
18:25
Sam
Right.
18:26
Zorikh
Gods must be lazy.
18:29
Sam
Time is different for immortals. I get it, but it just. I think it would have worked a lot better. And I think also Billy's character is still. He just feels so dumb for someone who's supposed to be 17 and, well.
18:44
Case
Even dumber as Shazam. Like, that's one of the problems of these two. Of both movies. Is that the difference between Billy and the Captain or. And Shazam, if we're gonna call him for this year, is just like, he's more immature in his superhero Persona, which is like, such a weird detail for the character when one of his powers is basically maturity.
19:06
Sam
Yeah. I mean, the fact that he can.
19:07
Case
Say, Solomon, wait, Zorgo.
19:10
Zorikh
Yeah, Let me go on a. Let me go on a track on that. See, because you remember when you didn't have any money, right? And you were going there and you were going into the. The supermarket and you were comparison shopping the pasta sauces by calculating calories per dollar, because you just didn't.
19:30
Sam
You.
19:30
Zorikh
Because you had that little money. Billy Batson is an orphan. He's got nothing. He's got to be clever. He's got to be smart. He's Got to be mature just in order to stay. Then all of a sudden, you got yourself a job that actually paid more than a single digit per hour. And all of a sudden. And you're still paying the same rent that you've been paying. So all of a sudden, now you can get the good pasta sauce, not the stuff that came in a can. You can get the stuff that comes in the square jar, because that's the good stuff. Because now I got money.
20:01
Zorikh
When you have superpowers, Billy Batson doesn't have to be clever and smart and, you know, and intelligent and mature to be able to negotiate, use his brain to negotiate ways through things to sneak into cop cars and using their computers. He's Captain Marvel now. He's a superhero. He can just pick up the car and move it out of the way. Holy crap. And that power corrupts, or in this case, spoils. That could be a justification for the less mature Captain Marvel.
20:30
Case
You know, I would like that justification if they actually, like, paid some lip service to something like that, because that works as a headcanon of, like, he's just, you know, in a similar way to. So there's this comic, Miracle Man, Marvel man, which is an adaptation of the. It is an evolution of a 50s Captain Marvel knockoff from Great Britain called Marvel man, which in the 80s series where it was revived. One of the things that they present is this idea that there is sort of like, even though the same memories and mind is technically being shared between the two forms, the minds themselves are so different.
21:07
Case
And the fact that their powers exist in this super form means that the human one is sort of like a release valve, and that there's, like, this, like, just for their own humanity, and that there is this much more like, cold, calculating kind of thing that operates when they're in their superhuman form. And you could make an argument that, like, the impact on the human psyche to have all this power can't help but make you sort of lackadaisical about things like. And this is a great movie to have a conversation about that because we're talking about the gods. Like, you could easily have a conversation about, like, the. Like, the fact that the gods take four years or three years in the story, four years in the. In the real world to actually show up after the staff got broken.
21:46
Case
Like, you could make an argument that it's just like, oh, yeah, like, being in our divine forms, being in these powered forms causes us to lose touch with things like time.
21:58
Zorikh
That's cute. Yeah.
22:00
Case
Because, like, here's the thing I. I don't hate this movie. I think it's. I think it's okay, but there's just a lot of, like, little quirks in it that keep it from being greater than the sum of its parts. And the sum of its parts are fine, but it's just like, you can see that it's like, super old or like the actors are super old, that they should have done this movie sooner. And then it's not written to sort of conclude the story, which you kind of need to do with the age of these actors if you're going to.
22:31
Zorikh
Be doing the Shazam stuff. Yeah, yeah. And they left a lot of the Easter eggs and the little hints and things like that they were dropping in the first movie. The tiger cabochons that were holding his. Heck, yeah.
22:47
Case
Yeah.
22:47
Zorikh
The repeated tiger imagery, the patch on his backpack, the fact that he loved a tiger when he was a child and everything like that. And I swear, the old. The old homeless looking guy when he was having that whole bus adventure there when he met Savannah, that was either. No, that was Mr. 20 in his human form, because they were going. I. I believe that the backstory of that was that Mr. 20 was one of the. Was an effete or whatever you call it, one of those. Basically a kind of a mythological shape changer. I forget which mythology it was. But he can choose to be a human. He can choose to be a tiger. That's. And he's got some kind of mystical connection to the Rock of Eternity and all that. And that's why we got all this tiger imagery. All of this.
23:31
Zorikh
This as in one in the Return of Black Adam animated cartoon version that came out in the DVD with, like, five DC cartoons, and that was the lead Superman. Superman and Shazam Against Black Adam. Yep. That's who Mr. Tony was.
23:51
Case
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good thing to bring up. The first one has a lot of the tiger imagery and Takitani is like, a very important part of the Captain Marvel mythos. This movie has a single call out to it, as far as I can tell, which is when. Not Mary, when Darla gets the kitten, she names it Taki or names it Tawny.
24:08
Zorikh
There it is.
24:10
Case
But. But yeah, like, Billy having that, like, affection for tiger iconography and. And all of that, like, was a really nice part of the first movie. And we lose a lot of that in this movie. Like, admittedly, if it's three years later, like, is he still going to be hung up on. On his foster mom? No. And we get enough of a reference to it.
24:28
Zorikh
You know, like there were so many other little things. There was the alligator people. You saw an ibis stick in the Rock of Eternity. And course the after credit sequence of Dr. Savannah meeting Mr.
24:40
Case
Mind. Yes. And we still don't have a goddamn Mr. Mind movie.
24:44
Zorikh
And. Nope. And all we got in the end was another after credit sequence.
24:49
Case
I mean, it could have been a worse after credit sequence at least. They joke about how we're literally just doing the same after credit sequence again, but. But yes, it's. It's at least acknowledging the fact that it's like that they had teased this thing and didn't do it. But yeah, it sucks. And, and this movie had to know that they weren't going to get a sequel at this point.
25:07
Zorikh
Point.
25:07
Case
Like there was no scenario where this movie was going to launch a franchise unless it somehow was way more successful than the first. Which they knew wasn't going to be the case. Just like, just from all the circumstances that go into this movie.
25:22
Zorikh
Sure. And of course, and as I mentioned, as I mentioned before we got started, you know, this whole thing, they kind of had to. It took like four to four completely different scriptwriters till they finally got one that they were going to make a movie out of. The original plan was. I don't know if it was the original plan, but once they got. Once they got Dwayne Johnson on board several years after the MTV online survey that said that Dwayne Johnson ought to play Black Adam was going to be the villain. But then Dwayne Johnson got bigger than Captain Marvel is and so he got his own movie. And so they had to completely redo the thing. We don't have Black Adam. And now Black Adam is supposedly a villain of Superman. But since they're never going to make those mo.
26:11
Zorikh
But darn it, to use wrestling terminology, Black Adam would have gotten Shazam. Over.
26:16
Case
Over. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we all were looking forward to that Black Adam movie. I mean, honestly, coming off of the first Shazam Movie, were expecting a Mr. Mind, black Adam team up of some kind.
26:26
Zorikh
Sure.
26:27
Case
Or some sort of interaction between them.
26:29
Zorikh
Like there was in Shazam a new beginning. That was a Mr. Mind, Black Adam team up. Although I wasn't a big fan of New Beginning. It was. No, I'm sorry, you're right. It was Dr. Savannah Black Adam. But I wasn't a big fan of a New Beginning. That was the first that they. That. That was Roy Thomas's idea to basically take. To make Captain Marvel have the Mind of Billy Batson.
26:52
Case
Yeah, that was the relaunch, like, post crisis, and that was really where they really brought that idea into play and overdid it, I think the first time.
27:02
Zorikh
That was exactly when they brought it into play. It was Roy Thomas. Yeah. It was basically the original Captain Marvel is a fantasy version. Well, Marvel's cap. Well, it was his idea to merge Rick Jones with Mar? Vell as a science fiction version of the original Captain Marvel. So now he took it back, and he always wanted it that way. So that's Roy Thomas. Roy Thomas is a nice enough fellow, and he's been a very kind. Very kind and generous with giving me information and stuff. So I can't really say anything bad about him, but I disagree with that choice.
27:36
Case
Yeah, Like, I have a lot of love for Roy Thomas. Nerd tendencies. He's what I consider the first writer who grew up as a fan of comics. Really brought in the sort of, like.
27:46
Zorikh
First comics writer who wanted the job.
27:48
Case
Yeah, exactly. That's his reputation. So regardless of stuff, there's certainly a lot to love about his career with both DC and Marvel. Yeah. So, okay, let's talk about the things that we. Okay, why don't we talk about the actual plot of this movie? Let's talk about the Daughters of Atlas as a concept. So first off, we should note that Atlas has many daughters in mythology. None of them are these three.
28:19
Sam
Yeah.
28:21
Case
And that's not a big deal. I'm fine with inventing some characters. It's already, you know, it's not like we're inventing, like, the. The 12 Olympians. Like, we're creating, like, peripheral gods in.
28:33
Zorikh
You know, any movie that's got Helen Mirren and my fellow alumni of The Class of 86 of Stuyvesant High School, Lucy Liu in it can't be that.
28:42
Case
Right. That's amazing. You did. You went to school with her.
28:46
Zorikh
Yes. We didn't really, you know each other, but, you know, were on the same. She was in the chorus. I was. I always had that featured but not lead character role in the play, you know, that's awesome.
28:58
Case
I did not know that. And that makes us even more. More special to have you on this episode. So. All right, let. Let's talk about these three. So Helen Mirren, like, I adore. I love her.
29:13
Zorikh
Ever since. Ever since Excalibur.
29:16
Case
Yeah, she's great. And, like, the scenes where she's just, like, throwing Billy around are a lot of fun. So the idea, like. Okay, so first of all, like, the Daughters of Atlas as a concept, I think is actually pretty cool. Like the idea that like, oh, not only did we like, you don't just have the stamina of Atlas. Like, you literally took his stamina, which is not the version I prefer in like the comics, but for the purpose of this movie is like an interesting idea where it's like, oh, the gods who you've claimed their powers are coming for you is a cool idea. Like, I think that's good right there.
29:50
Zorikh
Yeah. And they develop their powers as they need them. So that explains why he can be an idiot. And then when he. And in both the first and the second movie, at the climax, boom. Solomon shows up as his head and he goes into a pattersong. That solves the whole thing. Wooden dragon, which is, when you think about it, kind of a weird flex.
30:14
Case
Yes. He has a lot of smarts in like, he has. He. He figures out the solutions at several points in. In these movies. Which is just sort of why it's so weird that he's like, so immature and dramatically more immature ashes am over Billy. But getting back to the daughters of Atlas, so as a concept, I, I like the idea of the Atlas's daughters being like, you stole our. Our father's strength. Strength or stamina. Like, we're coming for you. Yeah, like that. That I think is an okay idea. I think that the casting call is. It's an interesting spread. Like they call it out in the movie. It's like, oh, wow. They are dramatically different in ages. Which makes you wonder if. If Ann is 6,000 years old, like, how old does Helen Mirren have to be to look like that?
31:00
Case
But not a huge deal in. In that regard, I think their powers are batshit. I think that they invented them for the sake of the scenes that they wanted to do. The only one that I think is the power of chaos, which is Lucy Liu's power, which at least she says something weird and you just have to kind of do it. I don't know why it's chaos necessarily. Like, the first time we see it's chaos, but like, it's mostly just mind control. Which doesn't strike me as chaos necessarily so much as the opposite of chaos. Inclination towards chaos maybe, but it feels like the anti life equation, I guess, is what I'm getting at. Which gets back to a note that I had, which is that while I love that we just have these like, random daughters of gods.
31:39
Case
Wouldn't it be fun if, since we're trying to set up the DCU as Being part of the larger like Kirby verse kind of stuff. Like wouldn't it be fun if they were just new gods instead? Like they could be the daughters of Atlas, like the like and just be new gods. I know it gets really weird, like because the whole Kirby thing, it was like the old gods gave way to the new gods. And like there's a whole birth rebirth cycle. Just the thought I had there.
32:04
Zorikh
And the whole of Shazam is they are the old gods.
32:07
Case
Right.
32:08
Zorikh
Until you got, until you got that new 52 thing where they had where Sha Zam went for completely different gods, three of whom were historical and three of whom were just made up for the fiction. That concept thankfully disappeared.
32:24
Case
Yeah. We should note Shazam also means a bunch of different things. The movie goes with the traditional one, which is what Captain Marvel has, which is Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles and Mercury. But Shazam can mean various things for various characters include Mary. Mary has her own female sextet, except.
32:41
Zorikh
For Zephyrus, who will just say is non binary.
32:45
Case
Right.
32:46
Zorikh
And then of course, what's his name? Black Adam is all Egyptian gods.
32:50
Case
Yes.
32:50
Zorikh
And then when they talk about the wizard was a young man, he had a bunch of made up for the comics. Proto Semitic, Right.
33:00
Case
He said Levram. Right? That was the word that you said to transform.
33:03
Zorikh
Levram was his word. Was his word. And yeah, at least one authority describes them as proto Semitic as in like pre Jewish poly, deity, whatever you want to call those things. Right. It was Levram and not Shazam. And then somebody wondered, somebody actually asked, I want to have a Viking Shazam. And I did the research with those letters. You really don't get the right gods out of Viking mythology.
33:30
Case
No. Unfortunately when you're trying to backron him into the like into the gods name like, or into the Shazam name like, you run out of options. That's why we end up with Zephyrus and the Mary Marvel sextet.
33:41
Zorikh
They need someone for speed.
33:43
Sam
Yeah.
33:43
Zorikh
And so the wit.
33:45
Case
But getting back to the daughters of Atlas and their powers. So Helen Mirren's powers are basically Sue Storm abilities, but she can also like heat metal. They say she has elemental powers, but most of what we see is like force fields and her like doing telekinesis kind of things. Lucy Liu of course has the power of chaos, which is like a mind control. She speaks into people and they turn into like weird thought zombie kind of things. Side note, rewatch the movie today with my two and a half year old daughter. And as soon as that first like Lucy Liu freak out everybody with their words thing happened. I was like, this might have been a mistake. But then the. The one that gets me is Rachel Zegler's character and having the power of Axis. And I don't mind that.
34:28
Case
It is a concept and the. It is visually interesting the way they. They show. Show it. What I mind is that Freddy calls it out without being part of the group earlier that, like, read through the list of their powers and it's just like, oh, power of Axis. As if that makes any sense. Right.
34:44
Zorikh
He's the one who reads all the stuff.
34:46
Case
Well, he clearly is a DND nerd. He starts, like, referencing DND spells and, like, potions when he's asking Shazam the wizard Shazam for magical help. He starts, like, saying, like, gaseous form. And he just starts rattling off, like, D and D things as if they're true magic stuff.
35:03
Zorikh
So there is. So. So it would. So it'd be perfectly. Although the wisdom of Solomon would have given any of them the answer. It just so happens that they hadn't accessed it yet, but Freddy's got it.
35:16
Case
I just mean it's like a weird. Like, it is a visually interesting power set to use from a moviemaking standpoint. Like, once they figured out whatever sort of algorithm or whatever special, like, whatever after effects template, they do the sort of weird shifting everything around. That's a. It's a very cool effect.
35:33
Sam
Yeah.
35:34
Case
But, like, I have never heard anyone talk about, like, the magic of Axis as a concept there. And so for Freddy, just to catch it, I was like, oh, that's. That's weird. But. But, like, her powers are. Are distinct and cool. I think Helen Mirren's powers are whatever the scene needs.
35:54
Sam
Yeah.
35:55
Case
And I think Lucy Liu's powers are the best to find as well.
35:57
Zorikh
Result.
35:58
Case
Because she's got the. She uses those powers when she needs to use those powers. And that's sort of it. Whereas Helen Mirren just sort of develops new abilities every time a scene calls for it. Most notably, of course, the dome, which is a necessary thing for the third act and also to keep other superheroes out of it. And it just felt. That scene felt like writing where it was like, we need to have the dome so that the circumstances play out the way we want them to play out, but it doesn't have very much impact outside of that. Such as, like, Philly isn't, like, cut off from power and, like, people aren't freaking out the way they should be. By all rights, if you were trapped inside of a city and like your suburbs couldn't get into your. Couldn't come inside or like that.
36:45
Case
Like, how much. How long is the infrastructure going to work?
36:48
Zorikh
Well, I mean, the filmmakers of this movie couldn't be everywhere.
36:55
Case
Yeah, it's. There's a lot of don't worry about it in this movie. And I don't mind. Don't worry about it. Just acknowledging that there's a lot of don't worry about in it.
37:02
Sam
I mean, it seems like the people of Philly in. In this world are dealing with a lot of bullshit anyway. They may not freak out as much about the dome. They've already lost a bunch of bridges. They call the superheroes the Philly fiascos.
37:16
Case
That's true.
37:16
Sam
I mean, honestly, at this point, it's just like, what else is new today? Well, hopefully in a couple of days, the dome will be gone. Let's see if what's left at the grocery store.
37:27
Zorikh
You know, it's like New York city in the 70s. Yeah.
37:30
Sam
You know, I grew up during that period. Your body just gets used to being alarmed.
37:37
Case
That's fair. That's fair. And of course, like, the people are respond. I'm not saying that they don't respond appropriately when, like, the monsters show up and so forth. It's just like I said, I think the dome is there for the benefit of. In the earlier part of the movie.
37:48
Sam
Movie.
37:49
Case
No other superheroes show up. And at the end of the movie, no one else can get involved in the last fight.
37:54
Sam
Right.
37:54
Case
Yeah. I don't think it actually serves a lot of purpose outside of those two elements. And. Sure, you could say that. And I know I just keep saying Helen Mirren because I'm not bothering to learn. What is it? Calypso and. Yeah, it's Calypso and Hespera. So Helen Mirren is Hespera.
38:11
Sam
Yeah, And Anthea.
38:12
Case
Yeah. So I know it makes sense to prevent champions from showing up. So that makes enough sense. It's very much like what happens in whatever happened to the man of Tomorrow with Brainiac, like setting up a force field around the Fortress of Solitude. So it makes sense to prevent support from showing up. But we don't see anything about that.
38:31
Zorikh
Yeah, the invisible barrier is practically a trope in science fiction and these superhero type movies. John Byrne did that in the Fantastic Four. And then there was that movie, the Incredible Invasion of Planet Earth.
38:44
Case
Earth.
38:44
Zorikh
And then there was a whole TV series under the dome. So it's almost like here we go again with an. With. With an impenetrable dome.
38:52
Case
Yeah, yeah. And like, again, like, this is not the franchise that is trying to necessarily do all the revolutionary things. Like it's supposed to be just sort of, here's an earnest superhero with some light hearted, fun kind of concepts in there. It's supposed to be good old fashioned superhero stuff. So we don't need to necessarily reinvent the Wii feel here. It's just, you know, like I said, it feels like her powers are very much the powers that she has for the sake of the scenes throughout the whole thing.
39:18
Zorikh
Well, I kind of thought the bit about the book that kept on writing down every single freaking thing they said was cute was funny, but was a little forced and overdone.
39:27
Case
It was a little. I mean, it was very funny. The scene where Helen Mirren's just reading the letter and it's just like it's too much. But like it's funny when she's like reading it all. It's like, now, who wants a Gatorade?
39:39
Sam
Yeah.
39:41
Case
Enjoyed that. It did real. So it occurred to me, this movie came out in 2023. This came out like right on the precipice of AI becoming a thing. And that magic pen is exactly what like AI is modernly for people. Where it's just like, yeah, we're gonna just like have it write the essay for me. Especially for Pedro.
39:56
Zorikh
Yeah. And I thought the reveal of Pedro being gay, I don't know, it also, it seemed like it also little forced. I mean, I'm all, I'm all, all supportive of, you know, him being gay. Great. The last line. Sure. Where it's like, you know, everybody's like, it's been two years. We can spoil it where everybody says we're superheroes. And he goes, I'm gay. And they go, we know. But the little hints that they were dropping, I don't know, it just kind of felt a little, you know, not that there's anything wrong with it. This felt a little like they were forcing it in there.
40:30
Case
Well, I kind of see, like, because I think what you're getting at is a problem I have with the rest of the family in general in this movie, which is that like we don't get enough of them.
40:38
Zorikh
Them.
40:38
Case
Like there's certainly a lot. But like comparing it with the first movie, the dynamic with the kids was so good. Like they all had like, much better, like developed personalities and like we still have like little bits of that in this movie. You know, they're sort of Replaced by their superhero selves too much throughout the whole. Whole thing. And. And that's just like the. The. The problem of this movie is like, balancing the fact that we've got a character like a comic book doesn't have the same problem that a movie has, which is that if you're doing. Seeing a human actor playing the child self and then the superhero self as a separate human actor, they're going to be different people just by virtue of the fact that they're different actors.
41:18
Case
And that it's going to create a break in terms of we as the audience assessing them as the same person. And so when we are deprived of the human form of Eugene for the majority of the movie, then it doesn't feel like we're getting scenes with Eugene, even though we get a bunch of scenes with him and is superhero form. It's like. It's the same. Like, it's the. The thing that the first time the air, like the Eric Bana Ang Lee Hulk movie came out was the first time I ever saw the Hulk on screen kind of feeling like the same person as he was like, in the different forms. And like, that was like a revolutionary thing for me where I was like, oh, I've never really thought of, like. Because the Hulk is also sort of a separate person in the.
41:59
Case
In the comics. They've been. They've been separated plenty of times. They talk to each other in their mental states all the time. And artists just draw them as entirely different entities. And artists have limitations on that. So, like, the. The Hulk has always been, like, two separate characters. And then the movies have all of a sudden been able to make them kind of the same. The Shazam properties have the exact opposite problem because they're not doing CGI superhero Personas. So they just. They, like Zachary and Levi looks very different from Angela Asher. And so that's just a problem that we have with all of these characters in this movie. Movie that we. I just don't like, especially Billy. I don't feel like we spend enough time with him in this movie.
42:36
Sam
Like, yeah, not at all.
42:38
Case
But all the kids, I don't feel like we spend enough time with them. It's a little like, we get at least the unicorn stuff. Like Darla we get a good amount with, I should say. But Eugene and Pedro, I think we don't get enough. And like, as a result, the little bits that we get with them do kind of feel forced. So, like, Pedro has, like, one scene where he's just like he's watching baseball with Rosa and is staring at the hot picture of the guy in the magazine.
43:03
Zorikh
And that's basically his only moment.
43:04
Case
Yeah, exactly. It's his only moment. And so as a result, it feels kind of forced because that's his only. It's the only moment he gets.
43:09
Zorikh
So we don't get to learn anything else about him. We don't get to feel any other part of his character.
43:14
Case
Yeah, I mean, we get the reminder that he's dumb also. Or at least can't read, which we get more with Super Pedro when he puts the Hot Pocket in the box in the microphone wave.
43:24
Zorikh
Or just didn't bother to read.
43:25
Case
Yes, also possible. But like we established in the first movie. And, and that's just the thing. The first movie does a lot of heavy lifting for this movie. Like the kid stuff, like the shazamily, all of their characterization is. Is holdovers from the first movie.
43:41
Sam
Yeah. I honestly feel like it's a disservice to not have. I. I know. Like the kids are older and I think this is why when we spend a lot of time with the youngest. Right. Because she's still like, she's still kind of a kid. She's still cute. She's still like kittens, unicorns, you know, so you still get like that feeling of like children.
44:04
Zorikh
Yeah, right.
44:05
Sam
But. But I feel like we miss out on the dynamic that was so fun in the first movie. You're right. Case, like the. It's part of the thing and then, then it's replaced by things that don't quite work. And like for me, like the date with Wonder Woman, like I didn't find that scene funny. Like it was played for comedy, but it was just kind of cringe worthy. And Billy was like, I don't know, using like pickup artist kind of stuff. Like negging Wonder Woman, which I was like, really? Like, I was like, really. I remember like in the. Really hating that. Like I was just like, I was like, Billy just can't be like a nice boy that's like, oh, wow, Wonder Woman, you're amazing. You're, you know, oh, you're so pretty.
44:57
Sam
Like, no, like we have to be like, I'm not ready for a commitment, Wonder Woman. Like, that's what's funny. Rejecting Wonder Woman at dinner. And I don't know, like. But there were a lot of moments that were like played for comedy with Zachary that I think would have been like, even in their layer. Like, I don't know, like maybe some more scenes of the parents. I Just wanted to see more of the kids. Yeah, for sure.
45:22
Zorikh
So make a comparison of sequels and character development and character interplay and so forth. Shanghai Noon and Shanghai Nights, two great movies. My favorites. Shanghai Noon was basically Star wars in the old West. I mean, you can break it down plot point by plot point. And then Shanghai Night you already had the establishment of the characters, so you didn't have to spend any time in the movie establishing the characters. And how do they become friends? They already were. So you got to spend the whole movie enjoying the interplay between Owen Wilson and Jackie Chan as their characters. And that's what the movie was. The movie was about them. And everything else was just excuses to get their characters to relate to each other in different scenes in different scenarios. But in here, not only do we have more than two characters, we've got.
46:12
Zorikh
Got five, we've got six characters. Was it six or five? Six. Six kids. But we've also got the grown up versions and the kid versions. And so that's. We didn't have time to enjoy what, what we're saying that we enjoyed about the first movie because there was so much stuff which is endemic of a lot of these epic superhero movies now is too many superheroes. That's what they're saying about all the Batman movies and all the Superman movies and the Justice League and the. And the X Men movies. Well, maybe not the Avengers, because the Avengers still have their core and everybody. And the Avengers movies are twice as long, so they get enough time. But you get what I'm getting at, right?
46:52
Sam
Yeah, yeah.
46:54
Case
Like I think that all the time that they're in the Rock of Eternity, that they're all hanging out, we should have just had them as kids. Like if the super forms were less. And this is not pitch territory here necessarily, but like if the super forms were like what we saw less of, like when they. They needed them, they transformed into the super forms, but most of the time they were in the kid forms. And maybe that was the thing that was different about Billy, that he had a hard time giving up his super form. Even though I really like. Here is where we're going to. Here is where we're going to take out that. That unspoken pin and we're going to have to talk about Zachary Levi right now.
47:26
Sam
Oh boy.
47:29
Case
So this is a fairly left leaning podcast and Zachary Levi has kind of gone off the deep end over the.
47:34
Zorikh
Years and I share his initials and I also share Ash's birthday.
47:39
Case
But. But yeah, so like he's kind of gone crazy and his performance is so over the top in this kind of childish way, which was called out in the first movie too, that his antics in the real world just sort of can flow into the sort of weird immaturity of the character that has become rough to deal with. He's anti vaxxer. He, he's like, you know, said some conservative stuff in general and just like, it is just not, you know.
48:16
Sam
Yeah.
48:17
Case
Cool.
48:18
Sam
Yeah. I, I, I think also, like, I, I think there's like something, I will say this, that I think that in the first film, even though he was like, you know, still called out for it, I didn't find it as, you know, annoying or grating because, you know, we're really, we understand for sure that Billy's a kid, right? Because his opposite is on screen more and like, he's a kid and things like that. And if you don't have the knowledge or the background with any of the Captain Marvel stuff beforehand, you just feel like, oh, Billy is this guy. And this guy, he's still a kid even though he looks like an adult. And, and that's part of the comedy of it. But in this film, because now we know that Billy is 17.
49:11
Sam
If he's acting even more immature than the actor who is 17. And you're looking at a guy who, I mean, and this is not me being like, ageist at all, but it's been four years. Zachary Levi looks four years older. He is an older man. And so he looks older. And so to have a man look his age be that angsty, you just want to be like, bro, shut the up, like, grow up. And so it's almost harder for the audience to like, have a natural affinity for Billy without the, I think he played a little more like, wonder when Billy was younger. And this was a little more bravado, angst. And I don't think that, like, a man that age can just get away with doing that without being more charming than Zachary Levi is.
50:05
Sam
You know, some people can get like, Harrison Ford can get away with being a curmudgeon because he's charming. Like, he can say things and you're like, oh, Harrison, you know, he can tell someone like, you look terrible today. And you're like that guy. You know what? Thank you. You're right. I do. Zachary Levi doesn't have that. He's not Harrison Ford. And so I do think that because the, the cast is generally older and we have this expectation and he is adjusting for that. You know, he is adjusting for that, but he is playing more bravado, false bravado and angst. And I don't necessarily want to see that in a person that's almost 40. I don't. I, you know.
50:50
Case
Or over 40 when this movie came out.
50:51
Sam
Oh, yeah, over 40.
50:53
Case
But also a thing that we're missing in this movie that was in the first one was the balance of having older Billy with young Freddy like that I think helped keep the relationship honest in a lot of ways. And now we're not getting a lot of those moments of Billy having someone to play off of.
51:15
Sam
Yeah. And you don't get a lot of scenes in them together anyway, to be honest with you, because Freddie's off with Anna for a lot of this movie and yeah, it's kind of interesting. You're right. You don't really get as much of that dynamic.
51:32
Zorikh
Yeah. I'm tracking movie Billy's journey here as he was, you know, basically he was an orphan and basically he was he was in and out of the orphanages because he made sure that it was explained more in the comics about how he was a real jerk in all his, the family's positions that he was placed in, but also what was redeemable about him and that made the wizard say, what the heck, I'm not going to find anyone else better in short notice was that he did care about his fellow young people. And that was brought forth in the movie when even though he was, you know, kind of keeping the family, the family at arm's length, when he saw Freddie getting beat up with the car, he picked up the crotch and beat up the other kids.
52:19
Zorikh
That gave Billy a sense of importance and a sense of success and a success of well being of himself. But once he got into this full family where he's with a bunch of people that don't need the help that he knows how to give, that he loses his sense of well being because what he's good at is not needed here. Because he's usually the one who says, okay, look, you're in trouble. I'm going to help you, we're going to get you out of this. But now nobody's in trouble. So he's like, okay, so we're going to be in charge. I'm in charge and we're going to do these important things. And it was like, Billy, we got it. Okay. It's like. So he's sort of. And I'm actually kind of identifying with this as I realize this sometimes where it's like. Like I'm. I'm.
53:06
Zorikh
Where I wind up in a place where I'm not the.
53:09
Case
The.
53:09
Zorikh
The smartest, most accomplished and. And competent and useful guy around. And I have to change. Spin my wheels and I have to change my steering wheel and I have to say, okay, I'm going to be a passenger and not a driver here. But Billy doesn't know how to do that. And that's why Captain Marvel, the first of the Shazamily to have the superpowers, kind of is. Is having this angst. He is having this insecurity because everybody else is comfortable, more comfortable with this family relationship. Even after four years, he just doesn't have it in himself to just ride it. He still thinks he's. He still just wants to. A part of him just wants to be the. The guy, the hero, the one who made the right decision and he isn't, and that's tough for him.
53:58
Sam
Yeah, Yeah.
53:59
Case
I think the movie does. Sorry, Sam. Go.
54:01
Sam
I was actually going to say probably something similar. I think that the movie. I'm going to just steal your light. I think that one of the things that the movie does really well is using the idea that Billy's about to age out of foster care rather soon as a motivation for him to be kind of all over his family, to be with him as much as possible in a way that's a little overbearing, although some of them have accused him of being controlling. And I do think that is. Is like a nice touch to talk about because I think that it's a strong motivation and especially because we already know that Billy has abandonment issues and inability to attach himself to people. And that was all established in the first film.
54:51
Sam
And so the fact that he has these people and he doesn't want to let them go so much that he's running drills, trying to do, you know, after talks about. About the things they did. I think that's all good because it's one of the times where the movie shows us Billy's insecurity rather than telling us. And. And I think that. That the movie does a really good job with that, actually, which is also gives us added motivation for Freddie to like, not necessarily listen to him and do what he wants anyway by talking to Anna and not listening to Billy when he cautions him, you know, about not getting too wrapped up in like, being a superhero and like, you know, just be cool, like, you know, that kind of thing, like.
55:36
Sam
And it's just like, no man like Finally, I get to talk to someone. I get to do something. And you're. You keep controlling me. And, like, it's. Because everything for Billy is, like, holding on so tight to his family and to this group that he's kind of been able to create by, you know, sharing his power. You know, I think that. That. That one thing they definitely got right, that was such a good touch because it, you know, having. Especially before he goes in to give his sacrifice, now he's secure. Right. His parents are letting him know, no matter what, you're ours. Like, we don't care what the status is. You're our kid. And because he knows that he's got that family now, he knows that, like, he can do whatever he needs to do for his family. And that's when.
56:20
Sam
When Solomon kicks in for him and he's able to figure out the sacrifice he needs to make and the plan he needs to make.
56:29
Case
Yeah. I think the movie supports a lot of this with the character. I think that there's a lot of stuff going on that is established in lines of the script, but doesn't necessarily feel as satisfying. Like, the third act is not a particularly satisfying third act for me. Like, the fight in the dome home, I like.
56:47
Zorikh
Yeah, the fight had an imbalanced storyline.
56:50
Case
Yeah. Like, we should note that we haven't talked about the dragon yet. And technically, the dragon is the big bad of this movie.
56:56
Sam
Yeah.
56:57
Case
Like, that's the big fight that he has to deal with in this whole thing. Lucy Liu is the person controlling it. But, like, yeah, you know, it's. This is a movie that does a lot of really good work that isn't executed very well.
57:14
Sam
Yeah.
57:14
Zorikh
Yeah. Well, the big fight in the first movie also had us. It would just kept on going back to the. And now he's Billy Batson into trouble. And he says, anyways, Billy Batson. And that was also an imbalanced, poorly paced fight.
57:29
Case
Which is funny when we get into pitch territory and I talk about my thoughts on the third act, we'll see how my notes resonate with you.
57:35
Sam
Say that I really. And this is like, yes, the fight itself was imbalanced, but I really hate that. And again, this might be, like a cgi, you know, cleaning up the edges. You can do it really fast. But I really hate that the dragon was, like, burning him to make him gray. And then everything in the final, like, final act was, like, shades of, like, white, gray, and black. Because, like, it would have been so much nicer to have that red, like, that bright red in juxtaposition. Of everything that was happening and then do a shot where, like, the people. Yeah, so that, like. And so, like. And then have a shot where people who are outside of the dome can see him, like, flying up. Like, just so they see the hope that's happened, you know, like, they can kind of follow him.
58:21
Sam
And I just felt like it was such a visual disappointment. And again, I've already established that I am very anti sepia. I like black and white movies, but, like, I just feel like if you had. Have the ability to have color and contrast and all of those things, we should have it. And the tone of these films have been colorful and fun, and I feel like we lost it in that final battle even more so. It was just like this whole movie was leading up to the moment where it was all drained out a bit for me. And so that's one of the reasons, visually, it was really disappointing for me as well as just. It was just a means to the end. Like, it was just like, okay, let's end this.
59:12
Case
Yeah, he looks like Black Adam by the end. He's, like, so burned up and everything. Like, you know, it doesn't look like Captain Marvel.
59:18
Sam
Yeah.
59:19
Case
This movie has a sepia tone to it. I notice. Like, it's the same thing, and it's. It's. I don't know what the specifics are, but it has the same sort of color balance that. Between it and Shazam wanted that Avengers 1 and Avengers 2, Age of Ultron has. Where the first one has this, like, sort of, like, blue kind of hue to it. Like, it's. It's saturated in a way, and the blues stand out. And then the second one has an amber kind of color scheme to it that's sepia tone, like, throughout. And even if it's colorful, like the Avengers, Age of Ultron is a colorful movie. It has this, like, kind of yellowish kind of tone to it. And this movie does too. And I don't know why.
59:55
Case
Like, I don't know why the second superhero movie and these, like, franchises, like, are all of a sudden just more golden. And it doesn't look bad. It just, like, has, like, a. A hue to it that is different than the first one and makes it less, like, saturated as a result. So I want to. I want to shout out a thing that I really like. It's in the. It's in the commercials. But I really like Darla with the unicorns, specifically the joke where she says, taste the rainbow, mother. And then it cuts to the horse winning. Like, I Love that. Like, yeah.
01:00:23
Zorikh
See, Darla's. Darla's the. She starts out as being the problem. Make the troublemaker simply by her. Her personality traits, you know, can you keep a secret? Moderate, you know.
01:00:37
Sam
Yeah.
01:00:37
Zorikh
But winds up being the. The central rock of the family, the one who makes them remember that they're all supposed to be a family together. And as I was saying earlier, and that's why I wanted Black Adam in this. Our Darla's last name is Dudley.
01:00:54
Case
Yeah.
01:00:54
Zorikh
In the original comics, Uncle Dudley was Uncle Marvel. Not really the uncle, but that he was a charlatan. He was a. He was a con artist. After his first adventure with Mary Marvel, he realized it was more satisfying to use his skills for the service of good than just for self, than just to make money and stuff like that. And that's why he and Mary Marvel had a lengthy. He was. He was Mary Marvel's sidekick in the 1940s for many issues when the original Black Adam came out. Now, every appearance of Black Adam in animated Shazam. Cartoons, whether it's Brave and Bold or Superman and Shazam. Or something else they all fall back on, he's defeated the same way. And that is, someone figures out that the way to make him not be powerful is to make him say the magic word.
01:01:48
Zorikh
And the original was, there's the hero in the tunnel, which had not been established as being Rock of Eternity in the Golden Age. It was a separate thing. In the tunnel, in the cavern of Shazam, they're all fighting. And Captain Marvel, Mary Marvel, and Captain Marvel Jr are all just as strong as Adam, Black Adam himself. So nobody's going to do any damage. Uncle Marvel is a fraud, so he doesn't have any powers. So he lights the brazier. The ghost of the wizard appears. He says, how can we defeat Black Adam and evil? And Shazam. Says, make him say my name. And he goes, kids, kids, stop, stop. Now, we all know that we can't beat Black Adam. After all, he got his powers from old Mashaz. I mean, Shamhaz. I mean Mashaz. I mean. And Black Adam goes, you sputtering old fool.
01:02:32
Zorikh
You mean Shazam? No, wait. Stop. Crack. Thumb. And it makes me wonder if Monty Python saw that before they made the Holy Grail scene. Darla Dudley would be the person to do that.
01:02:44
Case
Yeah, she would have been great for that. That moment.
01:02:46
Zorikh
So waiting for that. And in the comics now, Uncle Dudley has become a character in the comics, but it's going to be interesting to see if and how they Managed to make white Uncle Dudley and black Darla Dudley be related. They got to be. They can't not be.
01:03:03
Case
Well, Wallace west and Wally west are apparently related. And so that, you know, the. The race bending that goes on in comics can. Knows no bounds.
01:03:13
Zorikh
Anything can happen.
01:03:14
Case
Yeah, we can connect those two now.
01:03:17
Zorikh
I'm thinking of Brewster's Millions.
01:03:19
Case
Before we take our break, I want to shout out one more character that is in this movie, and I have a note, which is Gal Gadot. Sigh. For so many reasons. Now, we have been very effusive with our praise of the first Wonder Woman movie, But notoriously, the lore of Sam being on this show is because of the second Wonder Woman movie. Sam, would you care to remind people about how this whole you being here happened?
01:03:52
Sam
Oh, yes. So I had thoughts on Wonder Woman, and I knew specifically 1984. Yeah, 1984. I saw it with my family.
01:04:04
Case
And.
01:04:04
Sam
Okay, so, like, I had, like, this, like, weird. Like, it was such a weird thing for me because I love Wonder Woman. And so I am, like, I am prone to, like, be a Wonder Woman defender. Like, no matter, like, how bad something is. I'm like, no, it's a little airborne, but it's still good. Like, it's like, you know, like, I don't care. Right.
01:04:25
Zorikh
Simpsons reference. Yes.
01:04:26
Sam
Yes. So I. So I had seen 1984 with my parents. Parents. And I. I. Oh, God, I really wanted to like this film, right? Like, I re. Like, I really wanted to like this movie.
01:04:38
Zorikh
When it started out, it wasn't all that bad.
01:04:40
Sam
It was. You know, it was like. It was colorful. You know, let's.
01:04:43
Zorikh
That's.
01:04:44
Sam
That's what I love. And. And so I'm thinking about it, and I'm thinking about it, and I get home, and I was like, I need to talk to someone about who can I. So I send case. Like, basic. Basically, what starts out as, like, it was fine. It was fine except for. And then I start listing a thousand things, and I must have sent him so many paragraphs of, like, and what about this and why did they do that? And, like, it could have worked out this George Perez run and blah, blah. And, like, he came back, and he was like, hey, you know, this is a lot like the podcast that I do. Do you want to watch a movie and come on for an episode? And I was like, oh, yeah, that'd be cool.
01:05:31
Sam
It wasn't for Wonder Woman, but this is what got me the invite to actually be a guest on another path.
01:05:40
Case
Which then made me A so slight amendment on the. On the timeline because you had guested before the 1 on 184 came out.
01:05:45
Zorikh
Had I?
01:05:46
Case
Yeah. No, because you came on.
01:05:47
Sam
We'd already done Killing Joke.
01:05:48
Case
Yeah, we did. Killing Joke. The animated killing Joke.
01:05:51
Sam
Sorry, I just. I thought that came out after.
01:05:54
Case
No, no. What happened was that you guesting put you like, I already was going to ask you, and then you texted me this whole diatribe about Wonder Woman 84 and I was like, hey, I've been meaning to talk to you about this Anyway, do you want to be my co host?
01:06:09
Sam
It's so funny though, because my first like paragraph was like, yeah, it was fine, you know, but also. And then it just. I digress.
01:06:22
Case
Yeah. So compared to the first movie, I like that we actually get Gal Gadot as opposed to just like a headless person. And you think that's how it's going to be after the dream sequence, right?
01:06:32
Sam
Yeah, yeah.
01:06:33
Case
So like that. It's kind of nice that we're actually getting more of like the larger universe, even though this universe is crumbling at its foundation as this movie comes out. So that's all nice. She does not feel like she's in the same movie though. Like, her performance just is not on the same energetic level as Zachary Levi. And so they just feel like they're in different scenes when they're talking to each other.
01:06:56
Sam
Yeah, I actually, like, while we're watching it, I was like, are they even in the same room?
01:07:01
Case
I doubt it. That they were.
01:07:03
Sam
It didn't feel like they were. It did not.
01:07:05
Case
Again, such a fucking Covid movie. Yeah, so there was that. I also have a note just about the end of this movie, like, because Gal Gadot is just like Christ, man, when talk. Talk about an actress who just. Social politics of the day have destroyed her credibility. Like the fact that she's a supporter of the IDF has changed entirely our ability to.
01:07:27
Zorikh
To be fair, she's Israeli.
01:07:29
Case
Yeah.
01:07:31
Sam
Yeah. I mean, also.
01:07:33
Case
But she's gorgeous. She looks the part great. Like, and it's nice that she's here, but man, like, again, her performance is really like different energy levels with Zachary Levi. Like, it's not automatically bad. It's just like they're just in different scenes with each other and it's. You know, there's just so much more baggage with this actress than there used to be. At least in my. Like, there always was this baggage, but like, I just wasn't as aware of.
01:07:55
Sam
It because I think also the scene is kind of. It's not just. It's not just, like, the. The levels. The. The scene to me is just, like, kind of awkward. And I. I know. I know that we're looking at Zachary Levi, right? And he's an adult, and he's hitting on her. And I know that teenage boys have crushes, but again, it was just, like, the level of the way that he was hitting on her and in front of his parents and. And, like, his parents making the joke of, like, what's with our boys and the older girls because of, like, the Immortal who's now dating their other kid. And I'm like, actually, CPS needs to be called on you guys. Like, what is going on? Like, there was. Was, like, a little bit of, like.
01:08:35
Sam
I was like, oh, this is, like, weird messaging for a movie that's geared towards young men. Like, I was like, I'm not sure that I like any of this. Like, I would have preferred Billy to, like, be gobsmacked and not be able to say much. Like, that was like, oh, it's just dead, or something like that. And then just.
01:08:56
Zorikh
And that would have been more in character.
01:08:58
Case
It would have been more in character.
01:08:59
Zorikh
With it back in the 40s.
01:09:00
Sam
And then just have her, like, what. Her be like, well, no, you're not, and walk away. And then have everyone be like, really? Billy? And he'd be like, yeah, I don't. I don't know. You know, Like, I think that would have been funnier than what happened with the spider in his teeth. And it was like, as the young people say, really cringe. And so I did not, like, at least that last part of the scene. It was really cool getting part of the universe in. Like you said, like, having Wonder Woman show up, like, there are no gods left. And then she shows up and you're like, yeah, this exists in a larger DCU universe.
01:09:38
Case
Yeah.
01:09:38
Sam
And she's here and kind of like, have that happen. And, you know, and that was great. And the flowers growing. The effects were nice and stuff like that. And having everyone be happy, like, having a happy end was not nice. But, yeah, the. The scene overall afterwards was just like, a little. It was a little weird.
01:09:59
Case
Yeah. But it's followed up by a rather good joke because we haven't talked enough about. And I'm going to butcher the name Digimon Housen.
01:10:06
Sam
Yeah.
01:10:08
Case
As the wizard is great. And in this movie, he's so sarcastic in a way that I really enjoy.
01:10:14
Sam
Oh, yeah.
01:10:14
Case
But. But particularly the very end was like, who wants their powers back? We can do that, right? And he's just like, yes. It's such a good delivery of the line right there. He makes. Yes. Or he makes. Right. What he actually says somehow so funny that I, like, lose my shit at the end of the movie.
01:10:31
Sam
All of those jokes are good because when the parents were like, what are a better house? He was like, can we do that? Like the whole. Can we do, like, can we get the house back? Can we do that? That stuff was really funny.
01:10:41
Case
Yeah, yeah, we cut you off. So our goat.
01:10:43
Zorikh
When I first saw Jim and Hounsuit come out in that hat, my first thought is Shazam Is going to be the Phantom Stranger.
01:10:52
Case
Oh, nice.
01:10:54
Zorikh
That hat. Oh, yeah. But no, they, they, they. They went the superfly route with it or whatever. And, but which I still liked, but it would have been nifty to make Shazam the, the. The Phantom Stranger.
01:11:08
Case
Yeah, I made a nice little bit of headcanon right there. Yeah, yeah. Last things I want to mention before we go. Go on break. So the first post credits with the Harcourt economist coming to recruit Shazam As a member of the. The Justice Society. That entire scene is so much weirder now, thanks to the Justice Gang situation because he's like, being like, why is there a Justice League and a Justice Society and now there's a Justice Gang in the dceu? It gets weirder. But that scene so, like, solely exists because this is. Comes out, you know, just after Black Adam, and they were trying to do the Justice Society thing for a minute. And, like, I actually like the Justice Society as a concept in the first. Or in Black Adam.
01:11:52
Case
But, man, like, they're just like all the plans that D.C. had have shuffled so much since then. It's hard to look at that scene as any kind of teaser because it's not even a teaser for anything that, like, actually happened. It was just a little bit of a connection to Black Adam.
01:12:09
Zorikh
Yeah, we could. We hoped. And Black Adam didn't do as well as he wanted. And it looks like Dwayne Johnson has moved on with his career.
01:12:17
Case
Yeah. And then we get, of course, the last post credits, which is the Repeat of the Mr. Mind scene from the first one, which I appreciate that they at least acknowledge that we're still waiting on this thing. And Mark Strong is very funny in it. But yeah, like, they just teased this Mr. Mind goddamn thing again. I was so excited at the end of the first movie. I'm like, they. They did Mr. Mind.
01:12:39
Zorikh
Yeah. Okay. And I'm just gonna say this because it needs to be said, it's just gonna go. I'm just gonna throw these things out here right now. I actually didn't like Gerry or his first thing because every beat of, of. Of Captain Marvel's first appearance was exactly not what the original Captain Marvel was. I didn't like Savannah as being tall and good looking kind of guy, but at least at the end of the comic, the evil magic had turned them into the ugly little man that we remember, that we know and love to hate from the original comics. But here it's just like Mark Strong. Is that his name? Yeah, yeah. He's just. Even when he's a subservient or secondary character, there's an inherent stolidity and badassness about that guy. And there is nothing badass about Savannah. It's just. No, no.
01:13:35
Case
But that's also redesigned stuff of like the Geoff Johns era of Shazam. And, and yeah, you know what? This all kind of pays tribute to.
01:13:44
Zorikh
Yeah, adapted from. It was flat out adapted from, you know, page for some of it. Yeah.
01:13:52
Case
For the first one. And this one doesn't have that sort of framework to go off of, which is why it is more awkward and which is why when we come back from our break, we are going to discuss what we would have done at time of production to fix it. Hey, Jay.
01:14:06
Zorikh
Hey, Jim.
01:14:07
Case
You're a fan of the Legion of Superheroes, right? Yeah, I've been reading their adventures for decades. Me too. It was tough at first with all the characters, but now I think I'm an expert. It's not too hard to get into the Legion. And to make it even easier, we have a podcast called Long Live the Legion. We talk about different aspects of all its history to help you out. So whether you're a new reader in the Legion Academy or have your own flight ring or anywhere in between along live, the Legion podcast should be on your playlist. And we're back. All right, so Zork, here's the deal.
01:14:40
Zorikh
How we fix it. We make a TV series.
01:14:42
Case
Yes, yes. Well, oh, well, that would be one way to do it, but we have a rule and we have a guideline on the show. So the rule is that I cannot go before Sam in terms of pitching ideas is here. So Sam can go first or Sam can go second. I just can't go before Sam is the only thing on that part. And then the guideline is we generally are trying to be realistic in our conversation about, like, what could have been done at the time of production. Now this is a special effects heavy movie. So, like, from the standpoint of, like, any.
01:15:12
Case
Any sequences, like, we can speculate, you know, till the cows come home, in terms of, like, what could have been done special effects wise, in this movie, like, it's a green screen extravaganza, but things like, you know, Zachary Levi is the star. You can't recast him. He's. This is the sequel. This is the sequel to a fairly successful first movie, or at least a successful enough first movie that they got a sequel. They're not recasting the main star in the movie as an example of how this goes. So, Zork, you're our guest and you get the opportunity here to decide who goes first in terms of this conversation that we're going to have about speculating on. On the F. Whether it's you or Sam, I just can't go first. You can go after me and have Sam go before me. But that's.
01:15:56
Case
That's sort of the structure there.
01:15:58
Zorikh
Well, I'm not gonna pretend that I actually understood all that, so. So I'll just, like, follow along. But we kind of sort of actually sort of did all that in the first half. Basically, we figured out that everything that they were trying to do, all they needed to do was do it better.
01:16:15
Case
Yeah. Again, this movie has a lot of good stuff going on. It's just not more than the sum of its parts.
01:16:23
Sam
Right.
01:16:23
Zorikh
Yeah, sure. Let's, like, for instance, give it. Give the movie an extra 20 minutes. Give the movie an extra 20 minutes. So that way we have some opportunities to have the kids as kids, have their own adventures or have an adventure as kids. First, make it so that for some reason they can't transform or they don't want to transform or they're not supposed to transform. Find a reason for them to not transform, and they, as kids, can't fall back on their superhero selves in order to get out of the trouble they're in.
01:17:02
Case
I certainly agree in terms of the timing and the circumstances. Like, this movie is very singular in terms of the story that's going on. The first movie has a lot more meandering time as Shazam sort of figures out how his powers work and what his family dynamic is this movie just picks up with it already in place and doesn't spend a lot of time with our heroes, which we discussed before. I mean, like, we get scenes with the heroes, but, like, especially with them as kids, like we said, like, we're not getting good moments with them. So I. I agree with you. That, like, have some scenes where they're stuck being kids. And I don't mean stuck the way they are at the end of the movie when they've lost their powers. I mean, like, where they just can't get out of it.
01:17:43
Sam
Yeah.
01:17:45
Zorikh
Well, while you were just talking there, you brought me back to the Shanghai Noon, Shanghai Nights thing. By the end of Shanghai Noon, we had established that all the problems will be solved because Owen Wilson is. Roy o' Bannon is an idiot. Jackie Chan is an. Is a very lucky idiot. And Jackie Chan is brilliant enough to clean up after him. So the point being that they had. They had their dynamic, and every problem will be solved that way. And that's fun to watch. And so we get to watch that. How the hell are they going to get out of this problem? And that's how they do it. Something like that. We got the opening scene where everybody use their phone power, their powers to try to save the bridge, but they failed.
01:18:32
Zorikh
So we got to see how they try to work together, but we got to see them fail. Did we see them actually figure out how to work together to save the day?
01:18:41
Case
No. I mean, we kind of see them, like, at least. Least, like, round up the unicorns. Like there's an argument to be made there. But they, as a. As a super team together, we don't really see them effectively function. Argu. We saw it in the first movie. What we don't get in this movie is that.
01:18:56
Zorikh
Yeah, yeah. If this is about the family, we've got it. We gotta see. Okay, I got little. I got a little smoke in my eyes when they. When the family showed up, you know, all in their super costumes and like, we're doing it as a family, you know, that kind of got to me. You know, I'm an only child of a single parent and whatnot. So. So, you know, and. And have often been the end. Ever since second grade, I've been the outsider because in the second grade I discovered my name was weird. Because when you grow up with. When. When you grow up with someone with a weird name, you don't know it's a weird name because he grew up with it. But when someone with a weird name shows up in second grade, it's a weird name.
01:19:33
Zorikh
And so when I see an outsider being accepted by a group, that always gets to me. That's why the original. That. That was the emotional payoff for the original. Shazam. Give me that in this movie. Give me that at the end of this movie. And I'll be happy yeah.
01:19:51
Case
Some kind of big emotional payoff for the characters. The third act really is missing that.
01:19:55
Sam
So I would say that I do think that what the movie's trying to do. Because listening to you guys, I feel like. I think the movie's trying to do something that's the opposite of that. I think the movie is trying to establish that now that Billy has fully been accepted, Billy can actually accept that he can do things on his own.
01:20:17
Case
Yes, I agree that the movie supports that because of the whole all or nothing thing at the beginning of the movie.
01:20:22
Sam
I think what really needs to happen is that needs to be strengthened in the rest of the movie. Right. So I actually feel less. Like, if we actually feel. Have a couple of moments, it could actually even just be a scene. And, you know, maybe. Maybe it would be the one of the youngest or maybe one of the other young kids that are not as much, like, utilized. Because I think we. Pedro. Or. Yeah. Or you. Here's the thing, right? We've got these two kids that really don't get a of. Lot, lot of screen time. And I think, like, there should be, like. Because there are moments in this film where, like, you see, like, shazam. We see our adult Billy kind of, like, have these moments of, like, fuck. Like, this is. Like, this is like, I'm not keeping this together.
01:21:24
Sam
And I think that it would have been really nice to have one of the kids. Kids in their kid form, so that we get a little bit of that dynamic that we had in the first movie. Kind of just be like, you know, we're just all doing the best that we can and you're doing okay. We're doing okay. We're gonna figure this out. Like, just to, like, kind of have a moment of, like, acceptance. Like, we're. We're in this together. Like, a reminder to him of, like. Like, this is a family and I. I believe in you. Like, I'm not the best at dodgeball, right? Pedro said, I'm not the best at dodgeball. And maybe we're not the best at figuring stuff out together, but, like, we're gonna get it eventually. We've saved the world numerous times.
01:22:11
Sam
And to, like, have something like that, to have one of the kids remind him, like, no, we are a team. Because the whole time he said, you know, it's. It's all of us together. It's all of us together, but everyone else seems to be pulling away, which is important. So I think, like, once we get close to the third act, second act, if we can insert a Scene. And I don't think it should be Mary. I think it needs to be one of the younger kids. Because Mary is very, like, enough already. Like, you know, like, so it would be too much of a. A180 for her. I think it needs to be one of the younger kids, and it needs to be like, hey, we're gonna figure this out. Because we have to figure this out, and we're with you.
01:22:53
Sam
And that way we have kids have.
01:22:56
Zorikh
To remind the grownups, right?
01:22:57
Sam
And then we have that moment of, like, this belief. Because the truth is, like, that's one of the great things about, you know, kids is that they believe that anything is possible, right? And so maybe because Billy's spending so much time. Time as Shazam in this adult body, trying to run everything, trying to organize everyone, he's forgetting that, like, part of him. So we have a kid remind him, right? Santa Claus does exist. And. And that'll set us up for the third act where we've got Billy basically saying, like, we did have this, but now in order to protect you, I have this. And then you have, like, an emotional kind of, like, arc that's a little bit. Because he. You know, you can even in that scene, have him say, like, what is. Why isn't no one listening to me?
01:23:54
Sam
Like, we need to have a moment where he's like, more than just, like, guys, we need to deprive. Like, it needs to be like, a real. Like, we're not on the same team. And now he's gone. And now instead of. Of six, we're five. And, like, the whole thing is falling apart. And I can't keep us together because without that scene of vulnerability in the second act, the third act doesn't work. Because what we want to get is to a Billy that is confident enough that he can leave his family behind and know that no matter what, they still love him and they still belong to him, even if he goes out into the world independently of them. Right? Like, that's what we need. But because we don't get that in the second act at all, we. We don't really have anywhere to go.
01:24:40
Sam
And so, like, we're always leading to this place. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, right, because the first movie is all about Billy being accepted into his family. And then this movie can be about him accepting that no matter what he does, no matter where he goes, even if it's by himself, he's always going to belong to this family. And that's, like, a beautiful Mirror to the, you know, it's like a reverse mirror to that first film that if they had landed, it would have been so good, but they didn't land it. And so I think what we need is in the second act, I think number one, we shorten the date with Wonder Woman so that it's just not as long and not as cringy.
01:25:26
Sam
And then we, and then we add in a scene to make the movie just slightly longer, but we add in a scene with Billy confronting his siblings about like now he's gone, now he's been kidnapped. And it's because you guys wouldn't listen to me. It's everybody or nobody all in one. And now we're only five. And now we're. Because no one will listen to me and them being like, we're here. We did listen. We're sorry. But we believe in you. You know, we believe in us. You know, we'll figure this out because it's just kind of like they do it very lightly. It's very like, oh yeah, let's write a letter. Like letters are how we do it. And that's fine. But we don't have that emotional moment, you know, A vulnerability, really. Too much false bravado for Billy.
01:26:22
Zorikh
Wait, I'm just trying to, to wrap my head around this because I, I may have just missed a, a punctuation mark in there somewhere.
01:26:31
Sam
Sure. Sorry.
01:26:33
Zorikh
At the, at the outset, everybody's leaving Billy because they're sick and tired of his attitude and how he's trying to be the boss. But in the end, everybody's encouraging Billy to leave them because he actually is powerful and grown up enough to not need them.
01:26:55
Sam
Well, not that he doesn't need them, but that he has the confidence to know that even when he's flying solo, he's got their belief in him with him.
01:27:07
Zorikh
So.
01:27:07
Sam
Because I think eventually, okay, so like when we're kids, right, we have, we stay in the cocoon of our parents safety of, of our home, if we ideally have that, right? And the idea is that we have this unit and we grow up and we're raised in a way that we learn eventually to be self sufficient. In the beginning of this film, Billy wants to rely on he, he's having imposter syndrome. He is relying completely on his family, right? He knows that he's Shazam. But he's relying on false bravado to get him through. He Is not. He is not.
01:27:55
Zorikh
He's relying on this family to make him feel better about himself.
01:27:57
Sam
And he's relying on their, the power of all six of them being together to be the thing that gets him through. Like he gave them the power to share this responsibility, but at the end of the day, he's the one who was actually given the responsibility. Right. Like this responsibility actually belongs to him. He is the champion. And so in order for him to protect his family, he has to take that responsibility. And because his family, because he knows now for sure. Door without a doubt, 100% by the end of this movie, by the end of the second act, by the. By his parents telling him that they love him, that he's not going anywhere, that it doesn't matter if he ages out of foster care, it doesn't matter if they're paid for him. They want him no matter what.
01:28:45
Sam
His siblings want him no matter what. Now he knows that he is secure, right? He's safe, he's. He's wanted, he's needed. So those things are met. And now he needs a little boost for his own self confidence to know that he can accept that responsibility and the responsibility of protecting his family and going on off on his own right by himself to do that. Because his love for his family and the people that he feel secure in will always be there. No matter where he goes, no matter what he does. Like, that's there. And that's what we all want. We want to be able to be independent in this life knowing that there's always a place to go back to, that there's a safe base.
01:29:37
Zorikh
That almost sounds like it's Mary's story.
01:29:40
Sam
Yeah, but you know, it could be his story in this movie because that's where he is in this movie.
01:29:49
Zorikh
Yeah. Is that what happens? Or they do they keep their powers?
01:29:54
Sam
No, they can get their powers back at the end. It's fine. It's just like he just needs to know, right? He just needs to know that like he can do it because he has to do it.
01:30:07
Case
Yeah. The opening of the movie has this element of like, this diffusion of responsibility that Billy is going through where he wants them to operate as a team, because it doesn't. It means that he can't be the one to fail. Like the team fails, like not him necessarily. And so like the end of the movie when he is the sole champion going up against the dragon, like that is a moment where he needs to be shouldering the full responsibility. Like Atlas unto Himself and sort of accepting it that he doesn't have anyone to turn to. He's got their support, but it is all on him. Like, no one's going to save his bacon.
01:30:41
Sam
Yeah.
01:30:41
Zorikh
Wait a minute. So. So he was. He was. So he was actually afraid of taking on the challenges by himself.
01:30:49
Case
Right, because there's solace in operating as part of a team.
01:30:53
Zorikh
Yeah, right. Because he. Because he'd made so many mistakes in his early days as a superhero, he was uncertain of his ability to not make mistakes. And thus, that's why he needed to have his team around with him. So that way, if I tell them what to do, then they'll be able to do it. And if they don't do it's because they weren't good enough to do it. And if they couldn't do it, that nobody could do it because I was the guy who knew what to do and they were the people who could have done it. So that's why I won't feel bad because we fail when I told them what to do. Something like that.
01:31:26
Case
Something like that. Yeah.
01:31:27
Sam
Yeah.
01:31:30
Case
Sam, I love that you're tackling Act 2 because my issues are, like, I share a of. Lot, lot of these. These thoughts. But the notes I have are a lot to do with Act 3 because I think that the fight with Ladon or whatever the dragon is underwhelming as hell.
01:31:44
Sam
Oh, agree. Hard, agree. Hard, agree. I was just going for, like, the emotional journey of it all because I felt like that needed some clarification. But, yes, please fix this fight, because it needs to be fixed.
01:31:59
Zorikh
The fight didn't have an emotional journey. Yeah, it didn't. Yeah.
01:32:03
Case
So what I would like to do with the fight is that I would like to bring in him having to say Shazam earlier into the fight because I think that the staff should be absorbing. Should need a more powerful source of lightning than just, like, the little bolts that he's able to shoot off. And what I was thinking would be a really interesting fight if he was constantly charging it up, but that was forcing him back into his human form. And so it was, you know, so we could have some dynamics of Asher angel, like also dodging the dragon and moving around and doing stuff like that.
01:32:38
Zorikh
We had that in the first movie.
01:32:41
Case
Not to the same degree, though. Like, not what I'm talking about. Like, we, we are.
01:32:45
Zorikh
We had him changing. Well, okay, his changes into. Well, every time he changed back into Billy Batson was for a different reason. But the result Always was the same. And now it's Billy Batson with no powers. So how is he going to figure out a way to get his powers back?
01:33:01
Case
So this isn't a fight about him losing his powers or anything like that. This is just a fight where he has moments of vulnerability that he has to dodge the dragon as a human, then continues to power it up. Was my thought about making it stronger, specifically doing the Seven Thunders thing from. From Kingdom Come. Like seven Thunders ring their voice. So have it. Have it. To have him say Shazam seven times over the course of the fight, ending with him transforming into his human. Human form and in the process of destroying the dragon, which is what happens at the as. As the fight actually goes well.
01:33:30
Zorikh
Oh. So like he grabs the dragon by the back of the neck, holds his chest up to the sky and says shazam. And the lightning bolt hits the dragon, right.
01:33:39
Sam
And.
01:33:40
Zorikh
But it doesn't kill the dragon. So he does it again and again and then the last he'll, you know. But the dragon gets weaker and smaller and weaker and smaller, but still just a little bit too strong. So he finally. So he. But so the blah, etc stuff happens. And he finally grabs him. Finally gets back behind the dragon's neck and the lashes and boom. Blast the dragon into a million splinters. And there's Billy sitting in the middle of all the wreckage.
01:34:09
Case
Something like that. Yeah. I just think the fight could be more interesting than what we're getting. And some of that is like, it's boring. Just saying that. Oh, the dragon fire happens to hurt Billy and then he still flies through it and doesn't like really like.
01:34:21
Sam
Yeah.
01:34:22
Case
Get bothered by too much of it. Like the fight should be more dramatic and if the magic fire hurts Billy then he needs to avoid every shot. And if you're not going to do that, then have the next best thing is have his human form come into play a little bit in the fight. Not, not again. Like this is a Captain Marvel fight.
01:34:37
Zorikh
Maybe throw in some innocent civilians.
01:34:40
Case
Also a possibility. I think that they were having issues with that because of this. Because a Covid movie, like there's only so many civilians and like that final fight getting. I think they wanted to not have to deal with extras at this point.
01:34:54
Sam
For the dome because then no one would be inside and you wouldn't have to worry about civilians. Let's put a dome and then make it smaller and then we don't have to put people inside of it. Oh, that's a great idea. Woohoo. No social distancing.
01:35:09
Case
Yeah, I mean, the other way to approach the inside the dome fight and to keep the human aspect without it being him saying shazam. Is that all the lightning flying around could be striking him every now and then and he has to avoid it in addition to like his own lightning, as in addition to the fire breath. I just think that final fight is. Is underwhelming considering that like, in theory the movie builds up to this thing and it's like, it doesn't. Like, it's such a. Like the dragon by itself is like kind of a nothing threat. I mean, it. Yes, it's a dragon, it's big, it's scary, yada, yada. It oozes fear from every pore. But it, like, it feels like a construct. It's a wooden dragon. You know, it's.
01:35:52
Zorikh
It doesn't have much of a personality.
01:35:53
Case
Right. It's the fucking rancor from Return of the Jedi. You know, it's just the thing that they keep in the pit that happens to be dangerous. And so for that to be the third act big fight, the fight needs to be good.
01:36:07
Zorikh
Yeah. There has to be, you know, it has to start out with. Start out with the hero surprising the dragon. Start out with the hero doing something that surprises the dragon. But then the dragon comes back and proves that beating up on the hero. The hero tries this, it doesn't work. The hero tries that, it doesn't work. The hero tries another thing. It doesn't work. And then finally he has to take. Take a breather, take a moment. He has to hide for a second. He has to think. He has to come up with a brilliant plan. And then he comes up with the brilliant plan that he has to do. First this, then that, the other thing, and then it all works out and then boom. And then he wins.
01:36:37
Case
Right? There should be stages. Yes, yes, exactly. Like, and as it is, the fight is fairly short. And, and like most of this movie, it's fairly direct. Like, there isn't a lot of twists to this movie. I mean, there's the whole Helen Mirren getting captured for the sake of getting captured, which. Why don't they have a guard? Like, like, and I get it, they're all immature and whatnot. You know, we. We see plenty in this movie to sort of support that. They are just like having a good time being superheroes. And I like what they do to the Rock of Eternity. For example, like, I, I love them bringing in a generator and putting their Own shit in there. Like that's fun. But they are not effective captors of Helen Mirren when she is captured.
01:37:18
Sam
Well, to be fair, the only person who plays D and D was already captured. So they had no one to think about the fact that they should have put a card on.
01:37:26
Case
That's true. So Sam, I like your thoughts in terms of the second act making this stronger. I think the challenge of this movie is that is fairly long. It's 130 minutes. So it is cracking that two hour marker. And so in terms of adding scenes like man, we should have.
01:37:45
Sam
We.
01:37:46
Case
I wish we could spend a lot more time in their house before. Before the parents find out that they're superheroes. You know, like I, I wish we could deal with them there. I wish we could deal with some more school stuff. We did. We didn't talk about Diedrich Bader being in this movie for nothing. Yeah. Like he's in two scenes and then he goes himself.
01:38:03
Sam
Yeah, he got fridged hard.
01:38:05
Case
Yeah.
01:38:07
Zorikh
You know, maybe instead of making it longer, could have made it shorter. Instead of having quite so many plot points coming in. Plot points coming in. Streamline the plot a little bit and that. And by that means give us more opportunity for characters doing stuff.
01:38:25
Case
Yeah. I mean if there was like, if there was. Was more of. I'm going to call just a split. So Eugene, Pedro and Darla I consider the successors to the Lieutenant's Marvel.
01:38:39
Zorikh
Sure. Right. Like is fat. One of them is. Well none of them are tall and.
01:38:45
Case
None of them are hillbillies. But yeah, like, but I consider them sort of the spiritual successor to them in like the more modern state of it all quadrant of justice. And they are very much the lesser thing three in the dynamic like Freddy, Mary and Billy are the main three. So if we spent some more time with the lesser three, the Lieutenants like I, I would have appreciated that and gotten some more emotional resonance. Like if we saw them in school that would have been nice. Like we don't really check in with much of those three outside of Darla putting Skittles in her pockets all the time. And like unicorns, right?
01:39:15
Zorikh
Yeah, like a cute little scene where each of them have the same. Have something on their mind about their superhero selves. But they're all have to be school. So you see each of them, there's a little scene of them in their class trying to, you know, sitting in the class and just trying to fit in and not disrupt anything. One in each class. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. And then something happens and each of them have to try to hide it.
01:39:41
Case
Yeah.
01:39:41
Zorikh
You know, like. Like a, you know, a lightning bolt or something outside and that, you know, all of a sudden, each of them, like, has a lightning bolt come out of the back of their neck or something thing. And each of them have to have. Has to come up with an explanation. And each explanation would be in character.
01:40:01
Sam
You know what I. I think we could do. So, you know, when Helen Marin escapes, right? This. This actually wouldn't be like, adding so much a scene as changing a little bit of the scene. So, like, you know, so when Helen Marion escapes and they figure out that she's gone, I think it would have been, like, kind of a cool moment for, like, them to feel a little bit defeated. Because they. They do, right? Like, it's like, how did she get gone? Instead of, like, heading away. I think it would have been cool if in that moment, in their defeat, they all turn back to their kid self to kind of have a moment of, like. Like, because they. Sometimes when you mess up, like, you feel like a little kid, right? And it would have been, like, so great if, like.
01:40:47
Sam
If, like, Shazam. Turns back into Billy. And then, like, one by one, all the kids turn back and they're like, how did she get out? Where did she go? And then you have the kids go into the room, you know, where all the doors are, and be like, yeah, it figures. And then you have these tiny kids, like, looking up into, like, the things and, like, just giving us, like, that one moment of. Of, like, oh, my God, we're kind of defeated. We're in our lair. But, like, we feel small. I think would have been. Just give us another moment of, like, the kids dynamic. And also, like, remind us that, like, they're just kids. Like, they messed up because they're just kids.
01:41:32
Sam
And I think maybe that would be a moment where we don't actually have to add another scene, but we could instead assert, like, to send the message home to the audience that. That these are kids. And also to, like, instead of just saying the defeat, right? Like, like, not just telling. Showing. Right? Because we're physically showing. We're, like, actually of that moment. Right? We're, like, literally, like, bringing them down. And we're showing them as the kids that they are, which is why they didn't put a guard on. They thought they were invincible. They thought they had her. They thought they were so smart about it. And now they're just kids. And they're kids that are up against a goddess.
01:42:16
Case
Yeah. Some recrimination would do a lot to make it feel like they are, you.
01:42:23
Sam
Know, and then you add a two minute thing where they say, don't worry, Billy, because he, like, he. That's his vulnerable scene right there. Right there. That's where you put it in. That's him being like, guys, I messed up. I f. You know, I messed up. I can't believe I did this. I'm a terrible leader. And you can even have one of them joke you're the leader. And then someone else go, shush. And be like, no, come on, Billy, we believe in you. Like, it's going to be fine. We believe in us and have that moment. And like, this is not time to despair. We got to take care of this. There's no time to be sad. Let's. Let's take care of this. And then. Then have them go back into being superheroes and then cut to the next scene.
01:43:04
Sam
And that way you have the confidence boost there. We don't really have to add that much, but that gets it in the second act and we get more kid time, which we all desperately want. And then that way we can have that. I say also, we can throw in one more scene and cut down the end scene with Wonder Woman just a little bit it. And by just like, honestly, the scene. Instead of having Billy, like, go on and on, like, literally h. Have him be like, I was just dead. And then just stare at her and go, yeah, you were. And now you're alive. Have a good one, King. And then him, like, nod and then go, wait. That saves us like two, three minutes of cringe. You can add something else in, guys. That alone. You cut that down.
01:43:55
Sam
We can have one more kid thing happen, even if it's just someone stealing someone else's Skittles to get the Skittle product placement in there one more time earlier in the.
01:44:07
Case
That's true. A rule of three is missing from the Skittles thing. It's established at the opening and then it's used for the unicorns. But some Skittle, there should be.
01:44:15
Sam
A fight over Skittles between two of the other kids that are underutilized.
01:44:21
Case
Or Darla should just offer Skittles to someone.
01:44:23
Sam
Yeah, Darla should give Skittles to everyone when they're feeling sad. Yeah, there should be a moment people are feeling sad and she should offer them Skittles.
01:44:33
Zorikh
I just got an idea. Probably. Probably there are no bad ideas, although there probably is a better one than this one. In Stuyvesant High School, the football team would sell M&MS. And Skittles to raise money for the football team. And so in every class, you always knew if I wanted M and Ms. Or Skittles, I would just go to the football player, which. Well, we could have a thing like, where they're all. They're all in the school. They're in the class. They can't cut class because they've been cutting class too much, so they got to sit in their classroom. So they're sitting there thinking, how am I going to get Skittles? How am I going. And then the football player comes in with his boxes of Skittles. Who wants Skittles? And one by one, each of them.
01:45:09
Zorikh
But they have to do it so that the teacher doesn't notice because it's in the middle of class. So each of them has their own little one of them. So, like. Like, Eugene folds up the perfect paper airplane with a dollar in it and throws that. That for the Skittles or. And has, like, a string to pull it on the floor underneath Eugene. Pedro. And like, Pedro is. Goes over to the football player that he really likes and is really nervous, so he just orders Skittles and doesn't say a damn thing and stuff like. Stuff like that.
01:45:42
Case
Yeah. Which would be more. More natural kind of ways to sort of, like, hint at the.
01:45:48
Zorikh
The character. Yeah. The gay reveal. Yeah.
01:45:51
Case
Yeah.
01:45:52
Zorikh
Actually, was that. That actually might better than I thought it was going to be.
01:45:55
Case
Yeah. Like a good scene in the high school, I think, is. Is what's missing from this movie. Like, we're. We're not. We just don't have enough time with the kids.
01:46:02
Sam
Yeah.
01:46:04
Zorikh
So let's, you know, I mean, how many times did the kids. Kids come up with a plan that went to heck? How many times did that happen in.
01:46:11
Case
This movie as kids? None. But. But as. As. As a group, they. The whole plan with the. The.
01:46:18
Zorikh
Yeah. You know, plot turns or plot twists or. We're gonna win this now. Oh, we failed. We're gonna win this now. Oh, we failed. How many times did that happen?
01:46:26
Case
At least twice of big moments.
01:46:30
Zorikh
Okay, well, find something that we could just take out and. And that way we can expand. I mean, like Rocky movies are after the first one, they're just super simple. And so they got plenty of time for him working out and, you know, doing the training montage. This movie's got, like, seven. So we get rid of one of those moments and replace it with. With a kid scene. Yeah.
01:46:55
Case
You know, the. The problem I have, looking at this movie is that it's fairly long, but like I keep saying, it's fairly straightforward. Like, I'm not even sure what scenes we would miss so much as just like spend a little bit more time with them. Like, again, this is a movie that I think is like a, B minus.
01:47:11
Zorikh
Maybe C plus, like passive grade, but not top 10.
01:47:15
Case
Right, exactly. Like I, I enjoy, like, I enjoy the property. I. I enjoy a lot of the stuff that's going on in it. It's just like I keep saying, it's not more than the sum of its parts.
01:47:25
Zorikh
It does.
01:47:26
Case
It doesn't elevate the material here. And I think the first one did. This one is just sort of like scenes for the sake of scenes with characters that we've established.
01:47:34
Sam
Yeah.
01:47:37
Case
I don't know. The honest answer in this kind of conversation is that this movie, if this movie had been made as a direct sequel to the original right afterwards and it didn't have Covid as an issue, that would have been fine. Or if this movie was done as.
01:47:52
Zorikh
13 instead of 17, you know, if.
01:47:55
Case
If this movie was done as a. Here we're gonna. If they understood the writing on the wall being the DCU was on its way out and they were like, this is our way of being a send off to the Shazam Family and having, you know, like, I had a thought that I don't know how I would fit this in the pitch necessarily, but like by the end of this, like you could have this. You could go with the whole Captain Marvel scenario of being. Being like the idealized self form for their adult selves as opposed to just being transformed into separate people or adult things. And you could do a whole argument about that's why Mary looks like Mary in this movie.
01:48:32
Case
That she is at the point now where she is mature enough that she doesn't need to sort of idealize a separate person. She just becomes herself, but with superpowers. If you wanted to, you could end this movie with Asher angel actually becoming the sole person because he's like 21 in this movie. He's playing 18, but he's an adult man. And you could have it by the end of the movie, have him sort of come to understand who he is enough that he doesn't need to transform anymore. He just goes between superpowers and non superpowers. At least for a moment there.
01:49:04
Zorikh
Wait, I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. Billy, Mary and Freddy are all seniors and high school. They go off to the same college while the other Three stay home and still got a couple of years of high school. So the TV series will have the parallel stories of Billy, Mary and Freddie in college and Pedro, Eugene and Darla in high school.
01:49:27
Case
Oh, yeah, that works. Like the TV show scenario would be great.
01:49:31
Zorikh
Like, you know, and that way they can have little adventures every day as the actors get older and we get used to it. And it'll be basically Happy days with superpowers. We went from big with superpowers to happy days with superpowers.
01:49:45
Case
Yeah. And that's a much more viable kind of long term project as opposed to like the first movie was, did, did great with the concept. But you know, the second you try to do a sequel where there's like the real passage of time, all these actors just don't, you know, you can't keep the status quo going for that long.
01:50:02
Zorikh
Yeah, yeah, they're saved by the bell with superpowers, whatever. But with Happy Days, he actually saw the passage of time as the actors got older, their characters got older, and, you know, Richie got drafted until basically the only carryover character was Mr. And Mrs. Cunningham and Fonzie. So. Shazam. Will in the end will be the story of Mr. And Mrs. Whatever their names were. And Darla. Even darla. It'll be Miss. It'll be Mr. And Mrs. Whatever their names are and Uncle Dudley.
01:50:31
Case
Yeah.
01:50:33
Zorikh
And a whole new bunch of orphans will go in as the kids grow up and grow older and go into their careers. It was like. Got it. As the kids grow into and up to their heroic idealized selves, the powers must be passed down to other kids.
01:50:53
Case
Would be a great premise for it. It is making this way more Power Rangers.
01:50:56
Zorikh
Ish.
01:50:57
Case
Like the early seasons of Power Rangers where like the cast would just sort of like rotate out at like a couple actors at a time.
01:51:02
Zorikh
I'm okay with that.
01:51:03
Case
Yeah, I'm okay with that too.
01:51:06
Zorikh
Because this is Power Rangers is science fiction. This is magic. And there is one Power Ranger based on Captain Marvel. I forget which exactly version of the Power Rangers it was, but he was like a Captain Marvelous or something.
01:51:20
Case
Not shinking. It's. It's the pirate themed one that was the inspiration for Super Megaforce is Captain Marvelous in the. The Super Sentai.
01:51:28
Zorikh
There you go. Yeah. So it's all connected.
01:51:31
Case
And I, I feel like we have sort of hit a lot of the good ideas that we have for this movie. Like the limitation of this movie is the time like they hit. The first one came out right before COVID and then Covid happened and then everything got halted for a couple years and then it took a couple years for them to get everything together. And that's just what happened with this movie and like it. That's the biggest weakness for it. And because of COVID you can't do all the high school scenes that you have in the first movie or at least like far fewer kids. Yeah, not with all the kids. And, and you end up with fewer crowd shots.
01:52:05
Case
And just in general because the kids are older, they are trying to avoid using them as much because it's so obvious how much older they are.
01:52:12
Zorikh
Well, it's not as bad as Greece.
01:52:14
Case
Also a trip. There's no like 30 year old man, but there are some, several like late twenties in this whole slew of actors here. And that's just the limitation of how they cast it in the first one going into this one and having that big time jump that they couldn't have predicted because no one saw Covet coming in Hollywood. I mean, yeah, like you could make an argument that were like primed for some sort of global pandemic just based on how lax were being about diseases, but no one saw it coming specifically. And no one in 2019 was like, well, next year we're all going to be locked down and so we're not going to be able to shoot anything for a year and a half.
01:52:56
Case
So I feel like we are hitting up against the realm of we're going to get loopy and start just coming up with weird ideas if we keep going. So I think this is a good place for us in this Zorak. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for. We've been trying to make this episode happen for a couple months now. So thank you for finally making this happen with us.
01:53:18
Zorikh
It's a blast. It was a blast.
01:53:21
Case
Yeah. Where can people find you and follow you?
01:53:23
Zorikh
Oh, right. Well, let's see. The name is spelled Z O R I K H and in most instances I'm the only Zoric with that name spelled that way in English on social media. Although there are a few online games that have that I've seen use my name. And the trouble is every time I see that the player sucks. But. But yeah, pretty much. If, if you see Z O R I K H and the picture is this, it's probably me. So that's Instagram, YouTube, Facebook. I haven't done anything to mySpace in a while and I never did get onto Friendster. But I do miss going.com and tribe and of course captainzoric.com and the Captain Zoric YouTube channel.
01:54:10
Zorikh
And for what we're talking about, there's captainmarvelculture.com and the Captain Marvel culture, Facebook and the Captain Marvel Culture YouTube where you can actually see some of my lectures about the history of the many different Captain Marvel. So if you're trying to figure out where do copyrights and trademarks come into play and who sued who and why and what the result was, that's the only YouTube channel that gets it right. Even the cartoon history of the cartoon history of comics. I was like, yeah, but they made such a good effort at telling the story. I'm just like, I'm not gonna go say no. That should be a he, not a thing. You know, stuff like that, as in one person instead of plural. Just everybody knew what I was talking about. Okay.
01:54:59
Case
That probably was a useful clarification on that one. In today's culture. No, but Zark, you're our wonderful informational bastion for Captain Marvel material. So I'm glad that you've got your YouTube channel. I'm glad that you've got all the stuff going on that people should absolutely check out.
01:55:17
Zorikh
Yeah. Also I have these old pamphlets that. But I don't have it with me. I have these little pamphlets like basically that are a three pamphlet series that outlines the history of the many Captain Marvels. And I'm working on rewriting it into a larger volume or into basically a subscription service where every month or so you're going to learn a little bit more about another Captain Marvel and about how they relate to our history, to our society and to our culture. Like the anti communist witch hunts of the 1950s are referenced in no fewer than three different Captain Marvels. The Alien Activities Commission, for instance.
01:56:01
Case
Yeah, and you make extremely astute points about Captain Marvel. So I think people should check out your stuff and then they should check out what Sam's got going on. Sam, what have you got going on? Where can people find you and follow you?
01:56:16
Sam
They can find me here whenever our episodes drop. And I do lurk on our discord. So if you say mean things about me, I will know. So only say nice things about me. But if you have any complaints about anything I said today, which I don't think that I actually said anything to complain about, but if you have any complaints about anything I said today, anything you can find ksat.
01:56:39
Case
Oh, you can find me on most social media platforms, Aace Aiken, except for Instagram, where I'M holding on for dear life to my aim screen name from high school which is quetzalcoatl5q u e t Z A L C o a T L5 because I was pretentious as fuck in high school and continue to be so you can find me on most social medias Azaken As Sam mentioned, our Discord's a really good place to find us and interact with us the certain point of view Discord. You can find a link on our website site or in the show notes for this episode. It's a really good place to come and interact and chat.
01:57:13
Case
Otherwise you can find me on my other podcast which is Men of Steel, which is a Superman and Superman adjacent podcast where we talk about all things that are in the wheelhouse of flying bricks, just going about out there and.
01:57:26
Zorikh
Being more and Captain Marvel is Superman adjacent.
01:57:29
Case
Oh for real. He's the first episode of my Superman analog series. And you yeah. So on that note, the Superman analog series just hit episode 150 and so we just put out our and by just I mean it's going to be several months ago by the time this episode drops, but we just put out the hundred or the Compilation of episodes 51 through 100 on the Superman analog series. So check that out on the YouTube for certain point of view media, certain POV media. Check that out on YouTube. Also check out our Patreon, which I need to thank some people so I forgot to put up the notes for that.
01:58:04
Zorikh
While you're looking, my tribute to your high school screen name. We shall worship Keps a coat Our devotion to him's total at our service is we yodel. It's good enough for me Give me that old time religion Give me that old time religion it's good enough for me.
01:58:22
Case
I I love that you just have that ready to go.
01:58:25
Zorikh
I mean, name a God, there's a verse.
01:58:28
Case
Okay.
01:58:29
Zorikh
And if there isn't, you can make one up.
01:58:31
Case
Fair enough. On that note, so we have patrons to thank. And so I need to thank the people who joined our Patreon at the executive producer level. If you want to support the show, you can join at any tier. The free tier is great. We do essays every single week. But honestly, if you joined at the paid tiers, that would be extremely appreciated because that would help the show go. Especially considering the that I am having child number two right now and that's going to get a little hairy soon. But in the meantime, let's thank the people that we have to thank which is Micah McCaw, Carter Hallett, Sean Muir Lee, Gregor Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Mastropiero, Casey and Nancy Aiken, Adam Sampter and Keith Letinen. These are the wonderful people who joined at the executive producer level.
01:59:13
Case
If you want to join at that level, you'll get your name read off and every episode of our podcasts and we very much appreciate those who have supported the show. It's wonderful that we've been able to go for now Christ 180 some episodes. We've been going for a good long time so appreciate all the support and want to thank them. Zork thank you again for coming on.
01:59:36
Zorikh
Sure. One last plug Big Apple Comic Con November 22nd I host the costume contest prizes for everyone judged by audience applause meter.
01:59:47
Case
Sounds great. I do have unfortunate news which is this episode will be dropping well after.
01:59:50
Zorikh
That but well if you were there you remembered it. We'll have another one.
01:59:58
Case
But everyone should check out Zoric. I appreciate you coming on. It's been too long. It's been like 15 years since last time I saw you in person. So it's wonderful. It's wonderful getting a chance to chat with you and then they should check out other shows. Certainpov.com We've got a ton of great shows. Zork, you might like the new one that we just launched called Trade School, which is a show where people submit a a rant for five to 15 minutes about why they love a particular trade paperback. Just one guest host each episode. There's no it's no back and forth, it's just five to 15 minutes. This is why I love an episode. The show launched now four weeks ago. It's been go. It's a weekly show. It's been going strong. We've got months and months of backlog already recorded.
02:00:39
Case
But anyone who wants to submit I am actively trying to take it on. It's a weekly show. I need a shitload of episodes so I do appreciate anyone who wants to submit. Please let me know. You can find me at Case Aiken on most social medias or you can email me case.aikenmail.com is also a good place to send those. So yeah, Trade School would be a great place to check out and it's a wonderful show on certain POV podcasts network and then people should tune in to our next episode. Sam, what have we got coming up next?
02:01:10
Sam
Next time we'll be talking about Highlander 2 the Quickening. But until then if you enjoyed this, pass it on.
02:01:22
Case
Thanks for listening to Certain Point of View's Another Pass podcast. Don't miss an episode, just subscribe and review the show on itunes. Just go to certainpov.com Another pass is.
02:01:35
Sam
A certain POV production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Richardi, our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken, our intro theme is by Vin Macri, and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.
02:01:51
Case
Cpov certainpov.com.