Episode 89 - The Adventures of Superman Radio Show Dr Blythes Confidence Gang with Adam Lance Garcia and Steele Filipek
We’re back with more of the radio show, but this time we’re joined by Adam Lance Garcia and Steele Filipek, creators of the Green Lama audio drama! This time we’re looking at the second team up of Superman and Batman EVER (and the first is lost to time)!
Find:
Adam at @AdamLanceGarcia
Steel at @WordsofSteele
Their shows at @RealRadioRoom
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Outline
️ Introduction and Context of Superman Radio Serial (00:00 - 03:08)
Discussion about the audio cues and storytelling of Superman’s transformation in radio drama, comparing modern expectations and original methods.
Introduction of hosts Case Aiken and J. Mike Falson with guests Adam Lance Garcia and Steel Filipic, highlighting their work on The Green Lama and Queens of the Sapphire Sea audio dramas.
Background on The Green Lama and Radio Room Productions (03:08 - 07:09)
Detailed description of The Green Lama series as a post-war superhero drama with themes of morality and vigilantism.
Overview of Queens of the Sapphire Sea, an interwar-era seaplane pirate radio drama inspired by Miyazaki’s works.
️ Early Superman and Batman Radio Serial Examination (07:09 - 10:44)
Context about Superman and Batman's second radio crossover, which predates their comic book team-ups.
Discussion on Batman’s limited role in the radio series and its implications on the characters' portrayal and team dynamics.
️ Language, Social Context and Storytelling in 1940s Radio Dramas (10:44 - 20:34)
Addressing problematic aspects and language of the era, including racial and gender portrayals that reflect 1940s cultural attitudes.
Exploration of the production constraints of live or nearly-live radio serials, commercial sponsorship (Kellogg’s Pep), and serial narrative format.
Character Evolution and Genre Challenges for Batman and Superman (20:34 - 30:18)
Analysis of Batman’s nascent character development and narrative challenges posed by radio format limitations versus Superman’s better-established traits.
Discussion on how early Batman was perceived as less compelling and less integral in these shows compared to Superman.
Comparison of Audio Drama Techniques: Then and Now (30:18 - 40:16)
Contrast between original radio production techniques (live performance, minimal sound effects) and modern audio dramas’ layered sound design.
Voice acting styles from broad theatrical techniques to evolving nuanced performances.
Broadcast Conventions and Audience Expectations in 1940s (40:16 - 50:04)
Discussion on audience familiarity with radio serial tropes, such as minimal scene-setting narration, reliance on dialogue.
Challenges modern listeners face in understanding serialized audio dramas and suspension of disbelief on characters’ visibility and actions.
️️ Narrative and Character Roles in The Confidence Gang Story Arc (50:05 - 59:57)
Summary of the plot involving Lois Lane framed for murder and the gang’s carnival base.
Observations on Batman’s near-cameo role and limited utility in this arc.
️ Cultural and Storytelling Reflections on Gender, Relationships, and Tropes (59:57 - 01:09:19)
Analysis of gender portrayals, specifically Lois Lane’s damsel-in-distress role, and evolving understanding of male relationships.
Discussion of how social norms and media culture shaped these portrayals post-World War II.
Wrap-up, Reflection, and Promotion of Current Audio Drama Projects (01:09:20 - 01:20:38)
Recognition of the historical significance of these radio shows as foundational media for superhero storytelling.
Promotion of The Green Lama and Queens of the Sapphire Sea available on popular podcast platforms.
Transcription
00:00
Adam
Well, what's interesting though, it's like even then I was, and I was thinking about it just now, it's the while it was really like interesting to think it's like, and now it's time for Superman. Just trying to like create that visual in my head it was, you know, because we're so used to the either like shhh, like, or like a sort of sound effect of when he changes or like some sort of visual cue of like he's running into a phone booth or something. But it was always really interesting in this episode. Whenever he turned into super episodes, it was just like his voice shifted and I kept on wondering, is he changing in this? Is he not changing? I kind of hope that he doesn't. But like what is that? Like what does that look like?
00:48
Adam
And again that kind of comes to another sort of sense of how radio and audio drama storytelling has changed. You know, if we were to do that in the llama, like, you know, where for example, like we did make sure that our star, Gian Marco Ceressi, that when he has a Jethro Dumont voice and he has a green Llama voice, he hated doing the green Lamba voice because it really destroyed his voice and he did a great job of it. But you know, we had to sort of time that out either way. Like if were to do something where he actively changes costume, we would have to do some sort of sound effect to sort of to indicate that we would do something to sort of indicate like there is a transformation. Unless it's like, you know, like.
01:35
Adam
And there are moments in the story where he's like in the shadows, out of costume, you know, and we delineate that very clearly where in this it's just I'm Superman now and the kids just accept it.
02:13
Case
Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Aiken and as always I'm joined by my co host, J. Mike Falson.
02:18
Jmike
Welcome back everybody. Glad to have you.
02:20
Case
I'm glad to because we are digging into the radio serials again. It's been a while since the last time we talked about the radio show. Very time and that was stuff from the early days. We're jumping forward a couple years and for that conversation we are joined yet again by Adam Lance Garcia.
02:35
Adam
Hi, how you doing?
02:36
Case
And from the Green Llama Adams radio drama project we are joined by the co writer, co creator Steel Filipic.
02:43
Steele
Thank you very much for having me. Really appreciative and glad to be here to Talk this stuff.
02:49
Case
Yeah. So we had reached out to Adam because we knew that there was a new round coming out. And it was like, all right, well, what can we talk about now that we haven't already discussed? Because Adam had been on here to talk about Superman iii. He had been on my other show to talk about the rise of Skywalker. And I was like, hey, what if we did the radio show? That would be a lot of fun and feel like kind of in the right wheelhouse. And if we're going to do that, why don't we do the Superman Batman crossover?
03:16
Adam
It was a good choice. It was a. Yep, it was a good choice. I'm really excited by this choice that you've made, sir.
03:23
Case
But why don't. Since we're talking about the radio show and you guys actually work on a serialized audio drama format, why don't you talk a little bit about the Green Lama and. And that. Give some quick plugs here.
03:34
Adam
Sure. Well, Steel and I have a radio audio genre production company called Radio Room. We've been working together for. God, Steel. It's been. No, it's been six years.
03:44
Steele
It's going to be six years. Oh, it's going to be six years this summer. Yes, it is. Yeah.
03:47
Adam
Yeah. And we have two series going on. The Green Lama, which is a Buddhist superhero from the 1940s that we are the licensed audio drama producers behind, and Queens of the Sapphire Sea, which is an excellent radio drama series created by Steel. Steel. Tell us a little about those two projects.
04:06
Steele
Yeah. So the Green Llama, you know, is very similar to the topic that we're going to be discussing today. It's a superhero in New York, post war. It's dealing with morality and kind of this nebulous vigilantism that emerges post the end of the Nazi era. Where do superheroes go when they're not just hitting the chin of Hitler in every issue? And it's a lot of fun. It's an action adventure series. We kind of describe it a little bit kind of like the animated series in terms of tone. Not so serious, a little bit of levity there to it. And we. It's eight episodes long, about 35 minutes apiece, except for the last one, which is an hour. Thank you very much, Adam. And it's a punch in. And we have people in masks and crime and, you know, crime families, a gang war.
05:01
Steele
Very classic.
05:02
Adam
We have two vigilantes.
05:03
Steele
Yes. We have two vigilant. Several vigilantes. Classically themed pulp hero stories with a little more realistic, you know, Obviously there's superpowers and things, but a little more grounded. And Queens of the Sapphire Sea is my own project that Adam has helped, has co produced. That's kind of the aim of Radio room, that we produce each other's work and help alleviate the burden. And so it's a post war Interwar France. 1930s seaplane pirates, two seaplane mercenaries, Belle and Madeline Bernasse and their bounty hunting business very akin to Porco Rosso. If anybody is a fan of Hayao Miyazaki. We just did the first half of season two. There are a total of 11 episodes up online if anybody's interested. Swashbuckling Rat. A tat comedy. Guns flying, Bullets flying. Rather not guns flying. That would be interesting. You know, it's actually now I want to put that.
06:03
Adam
I now want to put that in an episode.
06:05
Steele
I think we have to you.
06:08
Case
And so yeah, they're all out of bullets now. They're just tossing the guns at us.
06:11
Steele
Speaking of Superman, that classic jiff, you know, the classic meme, throwing the gun at Superman and having him duck. Yeah. So it's a lot of fun. It's a lot. We just get together, we write, we get to tell our stories. It's essentially like we get to create a television series, but it's all audio and it's so much driven by dialogue and the times. You know, we wanted to evoke the era without necessarily going back to the production style of the era. I think we're going to be talking a little bit about that today. So it is set in the past and there are some tropes that are there, but we also kind of wanted to update some of the things and kind of give a more modern storytelling experience.
06:48
Adam
The biggest thing that we wanted to do with the Green Llama and Queensland Sapphire sees. How do you make these radio shows that felt like you were sitting down in front of a radio in 1945? You're a kid and you're listening to these and having these adventures, but doing it in a way that speaks to a modern day audience, you know, which, you know, we would never try to recreate the era because that's difficult. And the line between homage and parody is very thin. So what we did was basically as Steel mentioned, we tried to do the Batman and the Animated Series, but also kind of Indiana Jones. This idea of Spielberg and Lucas loved the serials, so they made a movie series that made them feel like they're watching the serials. And that's what we did with Llama and Queens of Sapphire. Sea.
07:33
Adam
And it's honestly, it's like, you know, if I could do this full time with Steel, I probably would because it's the most. And this is me complimenting him, not just because he's there, but my team, my work, my. My producing and writing partnership with Steel is the most satisfying experience I've had as a professional. It's just, you know, we challenge each other. We don't agree at any point on anything ever. But that makes us better writers and better producers. That's your spiel.
08:01
Case
Yeah. So I finally had a chance to listen to some of the Green Llama and I have to say, wow, this is exactly my jam. It, like, there were moments where I had to be like, wait, is this written explicitly for me? Because there were nice allusions to Doc Savage in there being like that bronze guy living in the Empire State Building. And it was like, nice here for this. And like, every now and then like a little bit of a, like, rah America. But wait, is it really, like having actually like that good sort of like modern questioning of the post war era? And like, I actually have a note for us to talk about how the story we're doing today is post war.
08:34
Case
And really it's just to be like, oh, it's interesting that they're kind of like struggling to find the voice of this era. So immediately after World War II, where it's like, okay, well, now we've lost this, like, major thing that was just going on in the real world that we couldn't help but talk about and trying to stay focused on it and have things like advertising that's still kind of focused on it. You know, we're going to talk about Kellogg's pep, but so specifically what we're talking about today is the Batman Superman crossover. It's not actually their first crossover. The first one was the Mystery of the Waxbin, which also was on the radio show. But there's only like two episodes that were preserved of that one.
09:15
Case
And like, they might find more at some point, but my understanding is that you can't listen to the whole one. So this is their second team up. And I mean, second team up ever. They had not, they had not done a comic book crossover yet at this point.
09:27
Adam
Oh, wow. I did not realize that. That's even more fascinating.
09:30
Case
They were appearing in World's Finest together, but they actually had separate stories. It would be them on the COVID and then like Superman story and a Batman story, but not actually a team up of them. So this is really early in that, like that voice of the character and like Batman is here and he doesn't really need to be frankly here. Like, he's useful. Like, you could have also had a cop. You could have had anyone who's like a particularly like, astute individual be in this part. Because, like, it's kind of, it's. It's the Adventures of Superman.
10:03
Steele
Yeah.
10:03
Case
Like, it's featuring an appearance of Batman and Robin rather than like a true, like, crossover between the two.
10:09
Steele
Yeah, very much, you know, like tuxedo mask, like, showing up. My work here is done, like. But you didn't do anything.
10:15
Jmike
You know, I was here, I contributed.
10:19
Adam
Yeah, it was utterly fascinating. Like I already mentioned at the top of, like, listening to this was really elucidating for so many reasons. And I'm. I'm hesitant to say that I really enjoyed this, but I really enjoyed this, if that makes any sense.
10:38
Case
I mean, like, look there. There are definitely aspects that don't really hold up just in general because it's a 1945 radio serial.
10:44
Steele
The.
10:45
Case
The. I mean, we're definitely gonna have to talk about how language has evolved it. Let's just talk about this. I got, I got really worried when I started listening to like the first chapter in the first disc of the DVD or of the CD collection because I was like, wait, did I just send them completely the wrong files? Because it's a serialized story, which means that the episode that starts the story is mostly the finale of the previous arc and it is involving little people and the language used for it is pretty free. And I don't think any of it's coming from a place of hate, but wow, did I feel real weird listening to it. And also there's a buried treasure subplot and it seems kind of just like, wait, did we just have a fantasy story?
11:26
Case
And I was like, oh fuck, did I just send them a racist creed instead of like actually the Superman Batman story? And no, it finally switches around at the end the of the episode, but it's like 75% other story and then 25% at the end being like, okay, how do we set up the next thing? And that's just like the nature of those kind of serialized stories where like, you do it, you do a 14 part story. But like the last episode sets up the next one so like, they have to come back for the next chapter. Like, you can't help it.
11:54
Steele
Yeah, they mean they were churning these things out. We were kind of chatting about this before the show, you know, they were doing it live or almost live with sound effects. It was a soap opera, like, every day or, you know, most days. Getting that stuff out there is, you know, is a way to sell Kellogg's. And you. You wanted people to stick around. You know, you had to. You had to have a reason for people to tune in every day so that, you know, the sponsors got what they wanted. And so, you know, I too, you know, there are some things about it that we can discuss. I appreciated the form. You know, it's hard to imagine now, but Superman as a radio show was so radically popular back then.
12:34
Steele
You know, so many of the things that we associate with Superman, Kryptonite, Jimmy Olsen, you know, certain subplots and points, you know, they come from the radio show. There's a whole interesting history about how Superman took down, quote, unquote, the KKK in the radio series, that they worked with the Justice Department to essentially satirize the Ku Klux Klan, you know, because Superman was so popular and there's so much around it. And so it's cool to kind of look back and to see, you know, storytelling has evolved, audio drama has evolved, but to see where this kind of came from. It is a time capsule of a sort. And while I don't like everything that happens in these episodes, I do appreciate and see what they were doing, why they were doing it, where it was going long.
13:26
Steele
Now that we can look back 76 years, 78 years, you know.
13:31
Adam
Yeah. And to that point, it's just like, even just seeing how people viewed Superman and how they used Batman. I mean, we've already said something like, mentioned Batman really kind of is. He's in the series, but he's not really in the series as we understand Batman. But just seeing how one thing that I've always loved about Superman and Batman as almost like, from an archaeological standpoint, is seeing how they evolve through time. And this is such an interesting time capsule of, oh, they. This is not even anywhere near what Batman is going to be. This is nowhere near what Superman's gonna be.
14:09
Adam
You know, there's all these choices that if you did in Anna Superman or in a Batman story today, you'd be crucified for, you know, just, like, little choices, like having Batman, like, get shot in the leg and not be able to do anything for an entire episode, you know, or like, he was throwing bricks. Throwing bricks. Or like, getting stuck in a well and shouting for help and just, like, opening a window because I need time to Think and are just like, okay, but isn't he in a mask and, like, he's in the. Yeah, there's all these little things that you never could do now, but it was just this nascent period of time that you could do these kinds of stories. And that's utterly fascinating. Yeah.
14:52
Case
And I think more so for Batman, like, I think Superman, the. The broad strokes Steel, like you said, were established with the radio show. Like Superman working at the Daily Planet for Perry White with Jimmy Olsen. All of those are radio show elements. Even Inspector Henderson who shows up in this is. Is a. Starts off as a radio show element, becomes the George Reeves TV show, and then doesn't actually make it into the comics until the 70s. Like, so there's a lot of, like, things that are, like, now just, like, parts of the character that, like. Yeah, this. That the. Most of the details here for Superman are not that weird. Like, he's got X ray vision by this point, which he didn't last time we checked in on the radio show.
15:29
Case
And they've never been that clear on if he can fly or just jump. You just, like, the radio show just was, like, not touching that one. We're just gonna. Just whizz us through the air.
15:37
Steele
Yeah.
15:37
Case
But Batman was not very popular at this point. You know, like, one of the. The fun things of trivia is just, like, how much the Adam west show really influenced Batman. Being well known to pop culture, especially beyond, like, comic book fans specifically. Like, Batman didn't get canceled like a lot of books did. But just because he was good enough to stay afloat during that period doesn't mean that he was the phenomenon that he is now. Like, were talking before we started recording, like, I just saw the Batman last night, and, like, it was a pretty packed theater that I wasn't thrilled about. And it's a couple weeks after the movie came out. You know, like, Batman is a thing like. Like, Batman is the. Like, Batman is the. The.
16:16
Case
The property of D.C. that, like, people associate first now in a way that Superman used to be.
16:21
Adam
Yeah.
16:22
Case
And it's so interesting to see that flip because here, like, he's never Bruce Wayne. At no point is he Bruce Wayne in this entire story. It's so weird.
16:29
Adam
But isn't he show up, like, as Batman?
16:33
Case
No.
16:33
Adam
Yeah, right.
16:34
Jmike
He did.
16:34
Case
He shows up as Batman. Grayson shows up. Dick Grayson has a secret identity, but effectively Batman is just Batman. Like, there's no other thing. And all the times that Dick slips up a lot, by the way, he keeps, like, keeps on dropping his Identity all the time. Every single time he just says Batman, he never wants things to say Bruce. Like, Batman may as well have no secret identity.
16:54
Steele
I mean, that's something that I find interesting. And it's something like 60% of revenue that DC Comics, you know, generates comes from Batman or Batman related products. Overwhelmingly, you know, he's the central character, as opposed to kind of the differentiation maybe that Marvel has or image or anything like that. But this is a time capsule once again, looking back when this character was a lot smaller. It's kind of like watching the Simpsons in season one. It was popular, of course, and people really liked it. But it wasn't really until season two and season three that it really exploded into the public consciousness. And so seeing some of the choices that are being made and you can see that this is the character that is now being played by Robert Pattinson. And, you know, there are things there, but it also is.
17:40
Steele
They're still trying to get their sea legs. And there are a lot of elements of the form of audio drama, radio drama that they kind of have to shoehorn in there. You know, all these different kind of weird things in a. Well, opening a window, trying to evoke the image for the audience. You know, radio serials had been popular for several years, but obviously, but post war America, soldiers are coming home, people are looking for entertainment and they're just churning these things out. And this was kind of like a, you know, a way like, maybe we can create another character. Maybe we can, you know, this team up is the perfect way to introduce a new character. And let's see where it goes.
18:16
Steele
Because the Batman film serials, they were popular, but not nearly as popular as any of the other adventure serials from the time, you know, Buck Rogers and anything like that. You know, Superman was the heavy hitter. And also, and you can see this in the early comics where the tone of Batman shifts pretty regularly in those in that first decade. You know, it starts out as kind of a crime noir kind of thing. And then it becomes a little more, you know, like Brave and the Bold. And then it takes another turn. You know, it's all over the place.
18:48
Adam
Yeah.
18:48
Case
And I think that Batman's power set, explicit, or lack thereof, I should say explicitly, is in opposition to the format for radio stories. Like a weird epiphany I had was when I realized that like, oh, functionally, the Shadow and Superman are the same in a radio serial in terms of how they function narratively. Because Superman shows up and you can't hurt him. The Shadow shows up. Likewise, you can't hurt him. Sure, there's like, you could have a trap or you could have like, something, but you can't see him. So he's effectively invulnerable. So the mystery has to not be just something that, like the character showing up and directly confronting a villain. Like, that can't be how you have to solve it. Like, that has to be something that they work up towards.
19:28
Case
Like, they have to build the character, build the drama around their civilian identity, having to sort of like, find them and get to them and then they make themselves revealed. And really the confrontation isn't that difficult once they actually get there. And that works for Superman in much the same way. But Batman doesn't have anything like that. Batman is just the same human.
19:48
Adam
Yeah. But to that point though, it's like, I don't think it's necessarily a. An issue of the format of radio drama. I think it's more of a format of what was going on at the time within the genre and the how people approach these characters. And speaking again from experience, like, you can have a vigilante superhero story where an audio drama that has a lot of action, that can have a lot of, you know, excitement that you would associate with like a superhero film. But I think back then they just didn't know how to write these characters. They were still learning. You know, there's this. The idea of, you know, well, we can't tell a story because we can't have like Superman show up until the very end to solve the problem because then there's no story.
20:34
Adam
You know, we've learned since then that you can actually tell us a really significant story with Superman being a main character. The Batman was a perfect example who. He's in character the entire way through the film. And, you know, he is the Batman from beginning to end. And the story still functions. I think just it's more looking back at this time, they're learning what they can do with these kind of superhero characters because they don't. Partially because of the production limitations, partially because they're so new, you know, like what this is. These characters are six years old, you know, so they really don't necessarily know how to tell these stories in this format just yet.
21:14
Steele
Not just those characters, superheroes as a genre, you know, in its early format, they're figuring out what to do. They're. They're throwing everything at the wall. And you can you see the explosion of these characters that, you know, had a. Have had a pretty centered villain or style for. For a four year period. You Know, where they're selling war bonds and, you know, kicking the tobacco juice out of Nazis either at home or abroad.
21:42
Case
And.
21:43
Steele
And now they're like, okay, so what's next? What are we going to do? And, you know, Superman eventually evolves to become not a science hero exactly, but he lives in Metropolis kind of post crisis. Lex Luthor, and he's from this faraway planet and the house of El and all this. And none of that's established right here. They're just trying to, you know, they're trying to figure out what this all means. Batman, all this other stuff, too. You know, what is a superhero story? What does it mean to tell a superhero story?
22:11
Adam
So, yeah, to that point, it's always so really just interesting to see. Like, there was like that whole episode where Clark Kent and Batman ask for help from an Irish cop and they just kind of walk around in a carnival. You know, again, it's that sort of nascent. We are learning what to do with this format. And today, to our ears, like, that is just absurd. I'm pretty sure that one of your listeners are like, has to like, rewind this to be sure that we heard this correctly, that Clark Kent and Batman in costume go into a carnival with an Irish cop to look for Dick Grayson and Jimmy Olsen. That is this thing that happens in the story.
22:51
Case
And it's like two episodes.
22:52
Adam
It's two episodes. Yeah. And that, to our ears, is absurd.
22:56
Steele
But back then, yeah, importantly, it's Clark Kent. You know, this is a big part of the. You know, it's. There's Superman. Yeah, but. But it's Clark Kent that is doing a lot of this stuff. And then there's Batman in costume, you know.
23:10
Jmike
Yeah, he just shows up in full costume. He's like, hey, Batman. Hello.
23:14
Case
Clark shows up as Batman. And it's just like, oh, like the cops. Like, oh, Faith and Begora. I almost took you for that Batman fella. And it's like, what. Why would anyone think that's the way to approach the situation?
23:28
Adam
It's funny because it's not just into sort of that larger point. It's not just the Batman and Superman. Like, the Green Llama had a radio show back in the 19. 1947. No, 19. And if you ever listen to that, some are available online, like Jethro Dumont, the Green Lama goes into a taxi and he's like, oh, you're Jethro Dumont, the Green Llama? And it's just like, doesn't he have, like, a secret identity? That isn't the whole point of this whole endeavor. So, yeah, it's just. It's a weird. It's a weird time, guys. It's a weird time.
23:58
Case
Yeah. I guess further, what I want to say, though, about my. My stance on Batman, it's also just the writing tropes of the time lent themselves to those sort of. That sort of narrative structure. And, you know, like we said, it was a D show that they were putting out, like, not recorded directly to wax like that. You know, like, it wasn't live, but it was like, effectively as such. So I don't know. I think it was just like, the way that they had conceived of it all. Like, and the fact that, like, we didn't have clear visions of these characters. Plus, the shadow was already really popular, so it wasn't like.
24:29
Case
Like there was a more popular thing on the radio that was the similar kind of archetype that I think just, like, kept Batman from being quite as effective here versus later, when you would. Could actually see him and have him be brooding and have like, you know, the silhouette of Batman, which is such a cool thing. And, like, you're just denied that here. Like, Batman could have just been a guy with a domino mask on. And, like, you wouldn't have. Like, there's no real point where they tell us differently in this.
24:54
Adam
Yeah, they. They do. I mean, they do say, like, he has, like, a bright blue hood, like, pointed hood, which is in Kate keeping cow. And it's like, wow. Like, it's. It's. It's. You can't help but it's just. It's so absurd when you think about it. Just. It's. It's. Again, it is such an interesting story. I'm so happy I got to listen to it because it puts everything in context in a really interesting context.
25:18
Case
Lots of context. Such as the fact that every single episode starts with Kellogg's Pep. This delicious cereal presents. Man, as soon as I started listening to this and because I used to, like, listen to this all the time and, like, re listening it to it for this episode, I was like, oh, right, yeah, those ads, like, oh, my God, they are pernicious. Like, they are everywhere throughout the whole thing. Every, like. And they. They're selling war bonds or not war bonds. The buttons as like the. The bonus that are in, like, in the. In each box of cereal where it's like, clearly they still have all the stuff left over from World War II that they're just trying to be like, no, check out our cool new sets of It's.
25:54
Case
It's the insignia for the Marines and then this one's for the army and this one the Air Force, like, and.
25:59
Adam
You can trade them with your friends.
26:04
Case
Mom by Pep.
26:07
Adam
But yeah, even to that, like, I mean, I've always known this. And like we. Steele's already mentioned, like, this is a soap opera. Like, this was a soap opera. Like, it is not actually the crazy. So it's the craziest thing is like, not only was it just like, it's Kellogg's Pep. And the reminding you about Kellogg's Pep, it's it. This is something that is produced by Kellogg, they've licensed the character to tell these stories so they can. So not to sell super. To sell Pep and I. Every time at the end of every episode, the last thing you hear, the least important thing is that it's a D.C. comic.
26:41
Steele
Yeah.
26:41
Adam
And that is the thing that kept on blowing me away. It's like, get by Pep. Listen to the, like, listen to the radio show. Listen to the radio show. Eat Pep. Also, it's in the daily. It's in the newspapers and.
26:56
Case
Right.
26:56
Adam
Also there's a DC comic book. Just like.
26:59
Case
Yeah. The announcer sounds so, like, tired and like exhausted by that point. Like, it's just like, oh, yeah. DC Comics publication, by the way, this is the Mutual Broadcasting Association.
27:09
Steele
Yeah. You want to buy one of those things that'll rot your mind, kids.
27:12
Adam
Yeah, it's just like, it's so strange to hear that Superman, a comic book character, like, the idea of a Superman comic book is an afterthought. I mean, it's kind of that case now, but, you know.
27:26
Case
Yeah.
27:27
Steele
I mean, like, let's look at something, you know, more recent, you know, and probably from our childhoods, you know, like animated cartoons in the 1980s, you know, they were a vehicle to sell toys. Oh, yeah, they had, they churned them out. Like, can you imagine putting out 65, you know, cartoon episodes in a year now? That's mind boggling. You know, you can't get five he man episodes out. Sorry, 10 in a row. You have to go five and then five because of the production process. And it's, you know, there is a. Of course there's an ulterior motive to it, but there are constraints and limitations to that as well. And so it's cool to look back at that and see some of that at the same time. I'm not one of those people who will go back and re.
28:07
Steele
Watch all of the original He Man. I liked He Man. When I was a kid, I liked Ninja Turtles, too. Now that there are more modern things and my tastes have changed, you know, things are different, but I can still appreciate what they were trying to do. I can still, like, look back and watch, like, oh, my God, J. Michael Straczynski wrote that. Yeah. Paul Dini was on that.
28:23
Case
What?
28:24
Steele
Like, you know, and. And you can see some sensibilities to that. You know, Michael J. Michael Straczynski on the Unreal Ghostbusters, you know, that's like, wow. Huh? Okay, that's cool.
28:33
Case
Yeah.
28:34
Steele
George R.R.
28:34
Adam
Martin on beauty and the Beast. But that's completely different. Like. Yeah, yeah. Because I like, when in talking about it, like, I always think about, like, Mighty Max, because Mighty Max was just basically to sell those, like, boy Polly pockets.
28:46
Jmike
Yeah.
28:46
Adam
Like, I don't know how well that show is, but Steel and I have talked about it a lot. Like, that is one of those licenses that if I could ever get my hands on, because that is perfect, like, side quest here. But, like, my favorite thing about Mighty Max is that it. It's a syndicated show, and it's just gonna. Just cycle forever. It's gonna, like, be on repeats on whatever UPN network that you're watching. And that last episode ends with a freaking time loop. So that the last episode was. Begins with the first episode. So the next episode you watch is episode one. I'm like, that is. That is. That's how you do it. That's how you goddamn do it. Sorry. I just. I. I love that. I love that. And I'll. I'll fight for that show to my dying day.
29:30
Adam
I don't know about the entire. I can't remember how good the entire series was, but that's a solid goddamn ending.
29:35
Case
I mean, it had an amazing voice cast. Rob Paulson was the main character. Tony J. Was Virgil, his, like, his advisor, and Tim Curry was the main villain.
29:43
Steele
It's a Skull Master.
29:44
Adam
Yep. Yeah.
29:46
Steele
You know, it's kind of like that Futurama joke about Star Trek, you know, 79 episodes, maybe three dozen or so good ones. Like, you know, it's coming from a place of loving realism. I love that show. I've seen every episode at least twice. I grew up with it. It was on my local channel, and I watched it every. Every morning that it was on. There are good episodes, and there are episodes that are like, oh, they're good for fans. You know, that's the way I like to put it.
30:11
Adam
And. And like to bring it back. Like, this is one of those episodes. Like, this story is good for fans because it's good for, like. Huh. Okay. Like, yeah, like, you know, just, you know, seeing Jimmy Olsen and Dick Grayson be friends or maybe more than friends. I know we. You know, were talking about this before we started recording, but my. One of my favorite aspects of this series was hearing how language evolved, specifically in the context of how we view male relationships. You know, you have the second episode. It's like, Jimmy Olsen's gonna go on a date with Dick Grayson, and they're gonna go hang. Go swimming at the Y. And, you know, it's these little choices that, like, in today's context, like, oh, my God, are Jimmy and Dick dating? That's really exciting. That's a really. Like, I'm. I'm here for this.
31:02
Adam
This fan, and I'm. I'm down with this. Like, let's ship it. I'm shipping it right now. Like, Jimmy and Dick. Why is. Been a thing before? That's hilarious. It's like. Like, that's, like.
31:12
Case
That's like a.
31:13
Adam
Like a quick layup. Like. Like, yes, of course it's right there. Like, the. Like, the two best friends are dating.
31:18
Case
You know, but especially when they're presented as the same age.
31:22
Adam
Yeah.
31:22
Steele
Like, yeah, right.
31:23
Case
Being allowed to grow up. But Jimmy has sometimes grown up and also reverted at times. And, you know, he's always young, but we're never sure what young means.
31:30
Steele
Jimmy and Dick have been together a few times. You just haven't been to that corner of the Internet, you know, venture out of your bubble a couple times.
31:39
Adam
Yeah, it was. Yeah. And I. Someone that commented, because I was. I was live tweeting it a little bit when I was listening to. It was such a fascinating listen. But I remember hearing that someone wrote, like, it was okay for Jimmy and Clark to, like, wake up together and have breakfast, but it was not okay for Lois and Clark to wake up together and have breakfast together, which just shows you how much things have changed.
32:08
Steele
I mean, look at I Love Lucy. Two separate beds. They weren't even allowed to say the word pregnant. She was in the family way. You know, it. It's that. And that's an extreme example, but you can. It's peppered throughout this episode. And when. When you're listening, once you hear one thing, you begin listening for more. Like, huh?
32:28
Adam
Or just, like, even how, like, Lois was portrayed in general. It's just like. I mean, look, we know that, like, how gender norms have evolved over time is a conversation that we're seeing today, but when you start Seeing like. Like, what, 80 years ago, how like. Like, women are just hysterical all the time and, like. Like, that can't be taken seriously. It's like, oh, my God.
32:51
Case
Wow. We've got a long argue that has gotten worse because we. So we looked at earlier episodes in the Superman radio show.
32:59
Adam
Yeah.
32:59
Case
And Lois Lane was much more assertive, much more aggressive. Hbi I see, like, the change in this. And part of it could be argued that a good chunk of the story, she is actively kidnapped, drugged, and then in jail. So, like, we're not seeing her at her best. The only time we're really seeing her in control of her faculties and. And control of her situation is when she, like, gets the dumb call that, like, the bait to, like, lure her out. She says the I still don't fucking understand this line, I'll see you in jail thing, where it's like, who wrote that if not to be like, oh, she's gonna be. She's about to be framed for murder.
33:38
Adam
Was it supposed to be like the. That it was the. The girl pretending to be Lois or something? Was that the.
33:44
Case
She's not the one who said that. Okay.
33:47
Jmike
That was Lois.
33:47
Case
Yeah, Lois who said that. And she's like, jail, Clark. You know, the place with the iron bars? Like, who. Who makes that joke? And it's like, oh, she's probably fooling you. And I'm like, no one has that expression. That's not a thing people say. If it was dumb.
34:03
Jmike
Clark brings up. Clark brings up later, too, when he's interrogating her in the prison. He's like, why did you say that?
34:09
Case
Why did you say this really weird thing?
34:11
Adam
Also, Clark doesn't really come off that well either. But anyway. Still, you're gonna say no?
34:15
Steele
Well, I was just gonna say very.
34:16
Case
Paternalistic in this, but in the same sort of way. Like, I. I think that this story in particular comes off that way just across the board more than some of the other stories. And in the Superman radio show, like, Clark Kent is the main character in all these stories. Like, he is the investigative journalist, like, figuring out everything. And he's the one talking to the police, talking to the local. Like, all the puzzles that are being put together are being done by Clark Kent. And then it's just for, like, once he figures out where Superman needs to be. That's where Superman shows up for, like, brief flashes. I think that the. That we have this weird situation with Lois that makes it her come off not as well.
34:52
Case
So behind the scenes, we're definitely going to keep listening to the sort of the next series of radio stories. Because the. The end of this. Of this whole series is the setup for the actual real first Kryptonite story arc. There's a. It appears briefly beforehand and is established as being a weakness for. For Superman. But the next story is like the first time Kryptonite is actually used against him. And that whole story is an unbroken link to the Atom man, which is like the first real Kryptonite villain that Superman actually has to deal with and fight. So we'll be checking in on Clark and seeing how he comes across and how Lois comes across. You know, like, he's dealing with a lot of like.
35:29
Case
Like he's dealing with Jimmy and Dick who are like kids, and he's, you know, just coming back from dealing with a bunch of dwarves. Like, it's a. It's a weird era for this whole series.
35:38
Adam
Yeah.
35:40
Case
I don't know if I like how I said that. I like. I'm not like, I don't.
35:43
Adam
You can edit this. It's okay. No one will know. No one will know.
35:48
Steele
I think a part of this is. Sorry, I just want to throw something out really quick. A part of this regression comes from the Fleischer cartoons. If you read the original comics, Lois is a lot more sort of. She's doing a lot more. Sometimes it's even two handers that really. These stories that are going on. And the radio. As much as I love those Fleischer cartoons, she's so much more of the classic damsel in distress that Superman has to go and rescue because they only have. They've got a reel or two in order to tell a story. Very visual storytelling, makes the stakes immediate.
36:20
Steele
Puts it in there similarly to why original or early video games, and even still video games to this day, use that as a trope as well, because it's immediate visual stakes that don't require a lot of words and a lot of complex storytelling to get across for an audience that they think is mostly for younger people. So there is that regression, I feel, in this and in other stories in this particular era, it's not quite the safety of the, you know, of the Post House investigation that's going to happen in the 1950s, where criminals always have to be punished and, you know, it's all about the nuclear family and whatnot. But there, you know, there is a little bit of this slide back here.
37:06
Case
This is post war. It's early in the post war era. But the post war era is characterized by this slide away from progressive ideals.
37:13
Steele
Right? I mean, no more women in the factories. You know, men are coming home and they're gonna. They're gonna provide. You know, there is the. You know, the happy days are here again. You know, women aren't, you know, asserting their rights anymore. You know, it's. You know, I say that as a joke, but you look at it and there's this kind of. I don't call it glamorized because we're. We're all. I wouldn't say we're all. We. Many of us are now looking back and realize, you know, the fake veneer that's been painted over all of this media at the time. But people don't remember just, like, how much. How much worry there was about atomic war and, you know, housing. You know, the people were literally living in boxcars because there weren't enough houses for the returning GIs.
37:57
Steele
And there was all this stuff going on and there was this kind of need to maintain a moral order of Americana. As the USSR was emerging, as America was putting its stamp onto Europe, and the quote, unquote, world was opening up post World War II colonialism coming back and dealing with all this, there was this need to kind of stabilize, which would continue on through the 50s until there was a radical realignment once again.
38:28
Case
Yeah. And it is unfortunate. And like I said, I will be checking back in with. To see how the story kind of, like, progresses with the. With these characters, because we'll be able to see if it's just this story where it's particularly bad for Lois and Clark or if it's more specifically just like the. The broader trend of the time. Because, like, there are some good moments in here for Lois, like when she, like when they offer to, like, send a car to pick her up, she's like, no. Now that the gas prices are lifted or whatever, gas restrictions are lifted, like, I'm driving again. And, like, she wants to. Like, she does all the. The rational things. She'll drive herself. She'll have her own exit strategy. Kind of stuff. She, you know, she offers after Jimmy is like, oh, we'll.
39:08
Case
We'll pay for dinner. She's like, we'll figure that out when we get there. Because she's the adult. Like, she knows that this is ultimately going to be her kind of thing. She's still an adult in most of these scenes, but. But, yeah, like, the fact that she gets kidnapped. She's missing for a good chunk of the first half of the story. And then when she's found again, she's actively in jail, being accused of murder. So I. I can. I can understand her being hysterical, but it does feel that, like, I have notes that she comes off very damsely in this. It's not a particularly good look.
39:36
Adam
I was gonna say, like, one thing that you just. The other thing I really find fascinating, the fact that like, if this is leading straight into the kryptonite storyline that leads into the Lex Luthor storyline, that like, it's kind of insane that these sort of big ideas and I mean, I'm sure you've talked about this before, but it is insane that these things that we now associate so much with Superman and Batman are coming in like six years after the facts on radio. You know, the relationship between Superman and Batman. It's clear that Batman doesn't know that Clark Kent is Superman, which is kind of weird. But like, Superman knows that Batman is Batman.
40:12
Steele
It's.
40:13
Adam
It's.
40:13
Case
But anyway, but like, he's Batman, so therefore he must be Batman.
40:16
Adam
Exactly. Yeah. But like. And like. But he knows it, but he obviously knows that Dick Grayson is the. Is Rob. Yes. So what's interesting is just seeing that, and I think this is something that's really lost on a lot of. Of fans now is how much the things that we associate. As always, there came so much after the fact. You know, a friend of mine was talking about how he's reading all like the. The Batman comics and how the. Like we all sort of assume like the. The grappling hook, right. The. With the. The pistol that he shoots out. And like that's always been there. But that really didn't come into like, I believe, 89 in the movie. And then it was like backfilled in. Into the comics. But like, he couldn't hold a gun.
41:00
Adam
So it was for a while that he didn't have that.
41:03
Case
Yeah, he would just like throw the Batarang with the cable attached.
41:05
Adam
Exactly.
41:06
Case
Yeah.
41:06
Adam
So it's like, it's. It is interesting, especially knowing that it's like. So I've always known that Lex Luthor and Jimmy Olsen came from the radio dramas, but like. And kryptonite. But to know that they all that and his relationship with Batman all came in within this very short amount of time on us on a licensed media. Kind of boggles my mind. And you know, that could be said for basically almost any franchise. Like, the things that you think were always there came after the fact in a book that you never read, you know, that you never saw or knew about. You know, as Case knows, I'm A big Star wars fan, but like a lot of my favorite things originated in a rolling plague role playing game that Steel and I happen to play. You know, it's just like, it's like all knowing what.
41:54
Adam
Like it's all comes after the fact. But again with the Superman thing, it's just had his. That blows me out of the water. That's.
42:02
Steele
This was consumable media. This was, you know, you were meant to listen to it. There weren't reruns. You know, you bought a comic and you read it and you were done. And it was an example of transmedia that we now call transmedia multimedia. Because the creators were just looking to wherever they could go to get a story to be able to pump that out. Comic book artists were doing two or three books a month. Now we can't even get a monthly book out for most artists because of the dedication to the craft or because of whatever these stories needed to be put out there. And so we remember these big points because they come from this. But there are lots of ideas that didn't quite make it, you know, and you look back and you're like, wow, you know, maybe not.
42:44
Case
Yeah. I want to talk about one that has survived, but I think actually hit its peak in the radio series which is Perry White. Like, he is a very strong character in this. Like, he's got like, particular, like, quirks in his vocabulary. Like he screws up his, like, analogies a lot. Like his metaphors, he like, reverses a lot of times. He's very passionate and invested in his reporters. Like Ed, he continues to be an important character in later media, but like, I don't think that there's ever been like, as strong. I mean, this is such a definitive take on a character that it was backfilled into the comics. But I don't think I've seen any of the movies, any of the TV shows where Perry White has meant that much to me as a character.
43:27
Case
And it seemed like that like, upper listed character in the Superman pantheon, you know, like all the movies. Like, he's there because he's kind of required to be there. And sometimes they do take on him. Like, I, like, I'm not, I'm really not trying to bash any of them. Like Superman or the 78 Superman, for example, that was recast right beforehand. So I know, because of a heart attack. So like, that was kind of coming in like a little blind, like Lawrence Fishburne in the, in man of Steel. I. I think they had some great uses for him in it. But, like, they kind of moved away from the Clark Kent secret identity, so, like, you don't focus that much on him. Like, he had a. You know, he had a place in Lo and Clark.
44:03
Case
He had a place in the Superman animated series from the 90s. But I don't think that any of those really. Like, those all came from the spot. From the perspective of, well, we need. Well, well, we need to have Perry White as opposed to. No, this. This character must be here. I don't know. Like, did that stand out to you guys?
44:19
Steele
Like, no, I know it's also, you know, it's radio. So the voices have to be distinct. You know, you can get away with a little more subtlety. You know, I, I. There's a great moment with Frank Langella's version in Superman Returns where he, like, looks at the crowd and just goes, well, go. You know, not the bombastic big Perry White that we see from Superman 78. You know, he's like, this is gonna be the biggest interview since God talked to Moses. You know, there has to be a little. You know, it's a little bigger. And that's something that we found while writing audio drama, too, that, you know, not that you can't have subtlety. You can. In fact, you need to have subtlety to allow for nuance, Be it morality, be it for, you know, anything that you want to discuss.
45:02
Steele
But the voices have to be. I wouldn't say big, but if you have four people in a room and they don't sound different, it's going to get lost. You know, even. Even if they are relatively differentiated. Two women, two men, you know, you. You can begin to lose that. And so Perry White here, you know, has that. He's doing stuff. He's saying stuff. He is that character. And these character and these writers who are writing this realize, you know, if we're going to. If we're going to do this, we have to differentiate a character. And sometimes that means that they come across a little bit as caricatures, a little bit bigger, a little bit weirder than we might be used to, because they need to have those literal voices be different from everybody else.
45:42
Steele
Very similar to animated show where the character designs, they have to be radically differentiated. Mac Groening said you can tell a good character design in animated show if you can see them in silhouette and you know who they are, because you have to be able to, at an instant know who they are, what they're gonna do. And it's the same thing in audio. You Know when they start. And that's kind of where, unfortunately, where Lois Lane is in this series of episodes, she is the stakes. So she has to be big and hysterical, which is unfortunate because of that. But that also means you know her when you hear her, and it's clear what the situation is in a particular scene.
46:22
Adam
And to that point, what's interesting. Cause it's like, then when I think about how Batman and Dick Grayson are portrayed compared to Clark Kent and Jimmy Olsen, like, I had trouble telling them apart. Like, when Dick Grayson and Jimmy Olsen were talking to Lois in a scene, I wouldn't know who was who. I would definitely know. Same thing with Batman and Clark Kent. I'm like, I don't know who's talking, you know? And I mean, partly that is because, like, they didn't have the idea of the I am Batman. You know, I, like, didn't have that thinking yet. But it's. It's. It is so curious that, like, they were so conscious of that in the way they wrote and designed these characters to be, you know, easily identifiable by the way they speak and how they speak.
47:08
Adam
But then you have Superman and Batman in a room together, and there's nothing really telling them apart. You know, Dick Grayson and Jimmy Olsen, and they're very similar. But, yeah, like, it was an interesting track. The other thing that I kind of noticed, and this is more of a. Like, a stylistic thing, is that because of the way that they were produced and the way that the stories were told, you know, it's a lot of people in a room talking. Like, there are entire episodes that are just two or three characters talking in a room. And then there's a surprise. You know, that again, that's partially because of the way these things would produce.
47:45
Adam
It was just a lot easier, basically, to have three people buy a mic or, like, off mic and then doing the sound effects on the day, as opposed to what, you know, Steel and I can do, which is, like, you know, have our characters running down a hallway and then out of the hallway into, you know, the middle of a street and get into a car, and then the car hit, like, has, like, planes flying overhead. Like, we could do that. Now. It makes for a better listening experience. But that's also because we can record everything separately and cleanly. And then we could layer it all in and make our. I'm gonna name drop here because he's great. Josh Wilson, our amazing sound designer, go, like, ballistic and have hundreds of thousands of sound effects to fill the skate, the landscape, the soundscape.
48:30
Adam
Excuse Me where back then they're just like, they're in water and there's a tub of water and they're just like we can't swim. You know, like. So it's interesting just hearing how what you could do in audio has changed from what they could do back then.
48:49
Steele
Yeah. And also it's an interesting point in evolution, just in acting. Voice acting is a brand new profession. Most of these people are theater actors or they were announcers or they were vaudevillians or they're very broad. And you'll see this in films too, that kind of men helenic accent where you're just kind of like rat a tat. And this is a point of time where more naturalism is coming. And it has been in theater for a while, but it's only beginning to appear in other media as well as things are shifting. And so you still have that overriding kind of stereotypical rat a tat style or the high and big. But you're beginning to see that. And I think that certain characters in here I felt were better than others in terms of acting.
49:37
Steele
You know, I, I, I don't think it was a bad job. I think that there is a, you know, there were constraints and I felt that, you know, it was kind of obvious what those constraints were. But there, I think people, some people dealt with it better than others.
49:48
Case
Yeah, I want to draw attention to Bud Clayton Collier, who is the voice of Superman and Clark Kent. Like he had a really interesting vocal delivery as having a distinct Clark Kent and Superman that would then go on to influence Kevin Conroy with Bruce Wayne and the Batman animated series. Like he has a much softer kind of like normal speaking voice and then goes into this much deeper like trying to evoke power kind of voice for Superman, which you don't really get when he reprises the role for the Fleischer cartoons. Like it's way more pronounced here than it is in those other things. Like we said, those are broader. You know, these we're going to, these areas where you actually can be a little bit more nuanced even though like it's not nuanced either.
50:30
Case
It's a 10 minute radio show, but like the serials only were like two reels and like real quick.
50:36
Adam
Well, what's interesting though, it's like even then I was, and I was thinking about it just now, it's the while it was really like interesting, distinct. It's like and now it's time for Super Bad. Just trying to like Create that visual. In my head, it was, you know, because we're so used to the. Either like. Like, shh. Like. Or like the. Like a sort of sound effect of when he changes, or like some. Some sort of visual cue of, like, he's running into a phone booth or something. But it was always really interesting in this episode. Whenever he turned into Superman in these episodes, it was just like his voice shifted. And I kept on wondering, is he changing in this? Is he not changing? I kind of hope that he doesn't, but, like. Like, what is that? Like, what does that look like?
51:25
Adam
And again, that kind of comes to another sort of sense of how radio and audio drama storytelling has changed. You know, if were to do that in the Llama, like, you know, where, for example, like, we did make sure that our star, Gian Marco Ceressi, that when he has a Jethro Dumont voice and he has a Green Llama voice. He hated doing the Green Llama voice because it really destroyed his voice. And he did it a great job of it. But, you know, we had to sort of time that out either way. Like, if were to do something where he actively changes costume, we would have to do some sort of sound effect to sort of. To indicate that we would do something, to sort of indicate that there is a transformation. Unless it's like, you know, like.
52:12
Adam
And there are moments in the story where he's, like, in the shadows, out of costume, you know, and we. We delineate that very clearly, where in this. It's just, I am Superman now, and the kids just accept it.
52:25
Steele
Yeah. I think also because we're reacquainting people with audio drama, you know, I would say that, you know, the vast majority of people who are listening to our show, you know, when they listen to our product, you know, they've. They. When they come to it for the first time, it's one of the first times they've listened to audio drama outside of something from when they were kids or they, you know, they listened in a class one time. You know, this is the first time they're coming to the show. And so it's kind of like we're reteaching them the way of the media of a medium, rather. Whereas if you're producing a show every day, there are all these shortcuts and linguistic twists and things that people just kind of accept.
53:03
Steele
In the same way that some people just can't accept musicals or opera, because people just break out into song. They're singing the entire time. All this stuff is on Stage. It's so ridiculous. But if you like that format, you don't think it's ridiculous. Ditto. Like pro wrestling. There are things that people just accept about pro wrestling. Kayfabe, the heel turn. All of these things that the outsider looks at and is like, that's. That's absurd. Or they just don't get it. But for the person who's on the inside, for the person who's listening to this serial, maybe not every day, but a lot of the days, they just, you know, they. They get it and they buy it because they're. They're involved in the form.
53:40
Adam
Yeah, that's a good point.
53:41
Case
Yeah. I mean, this is five years running on the show at this point. Like 1940s, something like that. Like, in the episodes, there was a lot of like, all right, to lock the door and out of these clothes. And now it's, look, this looks like.
53:52
Steele
A job for Superman.
53:53
Case
Like, there were more moments like that.
53:54
Jmike
He kind of does that. The courthouse too. Like, when. When was it? Robin rushes in, I think.
54:01
Steele
Yeah.
54:01
Jmike
And he, like, runs to the judge's quarters. He's like, I have these clothes. And now it's time for Superman. He, like, flies off. I was like, oh, that's kind of cool. That's a good.
54:09
Case
So you get some of those moments. But pro. Probably at this point, every, like, every kid knows this is the shorthand.
54:15
Jmike
He's doing the thing.
54:18
Case
We've been listening to the Shadow for a long time. We've been listening to all these other ones for a long time. This show has been running for five years.
54:23
Adam
Yeah. But it's also what's been really fascinating. And again, coming from sort of an audio drama producer standpoint, it is interesting re acclimating listeners to the format because there's some things that we're just so used to now when we're watching a TV show or like, we're seeing a movie or that you expect in the way a story is told that back then they just didn't really need to do because, you know, just in some ways, we become more media literate and less media literate over the last few years. I think that back then people could just, like, kind of accept it and, like, go with it, whatever they were going, and just kind of be bare bones where now people expect to see or hear more detail.
55:12
Adam
Conversely, they also need more things spelled out to them in ways that, like, you know, unless it's explicitly said this person's bad, they'll. They'll spend the entire, like, you know, five Years complaining about the bad guys saying, let the Jedi die, or, like, you know, like, let the past die, you know? You know, so it's weird. I have no idea where my point was with that. I'm just sort of frustrated.
55:38
Steele
Don't worry. I don't know where your point was either.
55:41
Case
I. I think to. To. If. If I do take what you were trying to say. There are. There. We're now at a point where. Because we've had deconstructionist movements in. In this kind of, like, genre literature, where we have taken tropes and, like, really tried to break them down or really reveled in them sometimes, you know, like. Like, God, I love a story that's like, how does the superpower work? And goes really into trying to have the science for it sometimes. And other times, no, I don't want it anywhere near there. But if this is so early on, like, there's no deconstruction of tropes. Every trope is just, like, face value on that one.
56:16
Adam
That's fair.
56:17
Case
And so people are primed just to take it that kind of way. Whereas now we. We have to even question, like, are we going into that trope yet? It, like, is. Or, you know, we're, like, a little. We're so literate that we're illiterate.
56:28
Adam
Yeah, yeah. And I think you're making a better point than I did, because then, like, a good example is just Batman showing up at places and, like, Batman in costume, looking through the police archives and things like that, like, where back then, it's accepted because there's nothing to sort of. There's no deconstruction of that idea. It's just. It is what it is, you know, so that's. That was. You know, case, you said it better than I did, and I'm just gonna stop talking. Always a good idea.
56:56
Steele
I mean, look to the television show from the 60s. We kind of brought that up at the very beginning. You know, all of these tropes are played, you know, for kitsch at that point. You know, it's fun. And, you know, Batman slides down a pole. Sorry, Bruce Wayne slides down a pole, and he gets to the bottom of the pole, and he's already dressed as Batman. Or, you know, he's having. He's having dinner with the mayor in full costume. You know, it's. They're playing it up for laughs. And then 20 years later, you have him fighting a mutant to the death in the mud, you know, just strangling him. And then you have a different completely different take later on.
57:32
Steele
We have the benefit of 80 years plus of this content and particularly with Batman, but also Superman being able to kind of pick and choose our favorite kind. You can have the Animated Series and then the. The Cartoon show and then the Batman the Brave and the Bold and then you can have just hop from place to place and depending upon your taste, you can tune in or tune out. I think that batman89 batman begins the Batman are a little more similar than people try to differentiate them. But there's a lot of stuff out there that we can kind of see and look at from different perspectives because we have all this media to act as a prism, whereas this is all happening in real time.
58:15
Case
So we jumped into character stuff and there's only two major ones that we haven't really spent too much time one of which is just one Robin slash Dick Grayson. Who is there to be Batman's version of Jimmy Olsen. Like were saying, this was the one that I had the hardest time telling apart from the other child in the room. Every single time. Like they're just two young guys. Like they just want to go for a swim at the Y. And then he's like, someone's following me. Like, oh, Batman. And I, I mean, sometimes I think about Batman so much, I feel like I've been chased. Like the majority of his plot structure is just to like hint that Batman's going to show up eventually and then when he does, he's like there to run information back and forth between. He's a squire, right? Yeah.
58:57
Adam
Actually, I'm kind of curious because you probably know more about this better what was based on what we know. What was like the first Batman Superman crossover, like on the radio show.
59:08
Case
I don't know very much about this one. I just, like I said, I know the name was the Mystery of the Waxman and I haven't listened to it, so I can't really speak to it. I know that like they reference it here because they like come across Dickerson or it's like, oh yeah, he's the one that we found. I think. So whatever that story, like, however that story started because sometimes it's like a person was on a boat and then we found them and then it took us to Borneo. And like, you know, like some of these stories would go real weird. So. But I can't speak to it, unfortunately.
59:38
Adam
No. Because I'm just kind of curious because it's like it is. Because clearly they have a pre established relationship and it's clear that they've known each other for some time. But yeah, I'm kind of curious as to how that was portrayed. But yeah, to your point, Dick Grayson, I don't know, man. What a turd. What a little turd in this.
01:00:00
Case
It's also sundial wristwatch. Batman gave it to me. I mean, not Batman.
01:00:05
Adam
Yeah, but not even that. It's just like. I think it's interesting. Again, looking at the sort of nascent experience of these stories is like what you viewed as a sidekick. What was the role of a sidekick without the benefit of like the deconstruction that we've had since that we've sort of touched on with the other characters. It is really interesting and I think you guys already hit a nail on the head. Like they were treated as squires and that's, you know, I never would have considered that unless until you guys said it.
01:00:35
Steele
Yeah, I think also it's, you know, I mean, these characters were created as, you know, POV characters for the young viewers. They're young. They get to hang out with Batman slash Superman. You know, they're not going to have superpowers themselves, but they're going to, you know, they're going to get to be there. And for a lot of kids, like, oh, that's so cool, you know, I wish I could do that. Compare to other sidekicks of the time where you have Tonto from the Lone Ranger, you have Tessa Trueheart from Dick Tracy, who are a little more agented. They're doing more things. They, you know, create conflict as happens in drama. Whereas, you know, these characters, sorry, they're kind of lame, you know, from these perspectives. Because. Because they're. They're just kind of. They're not doing much, you know, and they're.
01:01:18
Steele
They're just kind of whippersnappers.
01:01:20
Adam
I mean. Yeah, they are there.
01:01:21
Case
Just if you're taking it from the standpoint that you relate mostly to Superman or Batman, like.
01:01:26
Steele
Right.
01:01:27
Case
Yeah, like. Because that's exactly what I was going to say. They're audience surrogates, you know, like Jimmy Olsen especially. Like, you feel like this is like him pleading, like Superman, you gotta save Lois. Like, those are the moments where it's like, what, Trying to encourage the audience to be like, emotionally invested in these moments in the same way. And like for Robin is being able to participate. Go get help. Okay, I'll go get help. Those are things you could imagine telling a 14 year old or a 12 year old or whatever. Like in a situation like where there's a Fire or something. And, like, you're gonna go deal with it, but, like, you can't do it alone. So, like, send the person who can't help to find help. Like, though that seems like classic narrative devices that make them feel important.
01:02:06
Case
And, like, if you. If you relate them mostly to the child, like, there we go. Like, that's why, like, Captain Marvel worked so well because the audience surrogate is Billy Batson, who transforms into Captain Marvel. And like, that. Then you've got that. You've got it all rolled in one. Because, like, even though, like, Captain Marvel isn't necessarily Billy, like, he feels enough like it that the. But. But different enough that the child you're still relating more to, like, it's not an experience that feels alien, but you also get to live vicariously through the superhero.
01:02:35
Adam
Now I really want there to be a Captain Marvel radio show.
01:02:38
Steele
There was one at a time. He was more popular. Well, I know that, you know, it was.
01:02:43
Adam
I just. Wait, there's. There's a cat. I know. I mean, obviously, you know about the cereal.
01:02:45
Case
There was those cereals, which was.
01:02:47
Adam
Which is excellent.
01:02:47
Steele
I thought there was a radio show. Am I. Or am I thinking of. I may be thinking of something different.
01:02:51
Adam
Let me find out. Because I'm actually kind of curious because, like, you know, like, as, like, they're steel. And I have often many conversations of, like, what if we had got this character? What if we got that character? You know, we did this minor little licensed character. How do we climb the ladder to get the big ones? And it's. I was talking about this with another producer recently about, like, one of the biggest challenges with superhero audio dramas today is that why do I listen to a Spider man audio drama when I can just go see the movie? You know, why do I need to listen to, like, as much as I desperately want to do a daredevil audio drama? Because he's blind. What can you do with sound?
01:03:33
Case
Right?
01:03:34
Adam
That would be really cool. Like, what's. You know, how do I incentivize someone to listen to that when they can just watch the Netflix show? Same thing with Wolverine. The fact that the Wolverine audio trauma sucked is a completely different story. But, like, the. But, you know, it's like, why. What's it going to incentivize someone to listen to a Wolverine story when I can just watch Hugh Jackman cut people up.
01:03:58
Steele
But making friends and influencing people with that, you know, killer review. Wolverine.
01:04:03
Case
But I think that's a general problem with the push towards these bigger budget, big media experiences and especially now that everything is streaming and you can access it all the time, like, it. It makes it harder to sell the comics because it's. It's static images. It's making it hard. Like, it's made. It makes radio shows harder. And for. Except for specific things, like, radio shows work if you're driving because you can't watch a TV show when you're not driving or when you're driving a car like that. Or you should. At least you shouldn't.
01:04:29
Steele
Yeah, please don't.
01:04:30
Adam
Well, but it's like. Yeah, like. Like an idea for, like a Captain Marvel audio drama has a lot of potential because you have that idea of the young boy. Meet it, like, and the adult. Like, there's a way of making it really enticing, you know? But, yeah, like. Yeah, it's weird. Like, even today you listen, because I still. You listen to it more than I did, because I couldn't. I just, for whatever reason, could get into it. What was, like, the Batman audio drama that they tried to do with hbo Max, like, so it was good.
01:05:00
Steele
It's. Once again, a lot of this stuff is. It's coming from people who have written for television or they've written for film. They're not really writers of audio. And that's not a disparagement. You know, they're trying to woo audiences who are used to a very particular style of storytelling. And I feel that sometimes it's the acting. You know, these actors, they're much more subtle. It's much more nuanced. It's staged, you know, theater, film, acting. Whereas, you know, there does have to be a differentiation, and it's the roller coaster. Your voice goes high and it comes low, and you're emoting a lot more than you might otherwise do. Very similar to animated show, because so much of it has to come from the voice.
01:05:40
Steele
And if you don't have that, if you don't have the writing to be able to build out the world for audiences, then, you know, it's. It's hard because it's just kind of flat and you're just kind of. It's kind of an expanded audiobook. You know, the really good stuff from Big Finish from the Heavy Players, Red Panda, is another good one that I really like. You know, it does what it can with the form. You know, comic books, they had their time, and comics themselves, Sequential art is doing really well in the form of webtoons and tapas and comixology. But the periodical is not as strong as it once was because it was Kind of a. I wouldn't say an abrogation of the form, but it was a very particular form for a very particular time. Ditto radio serials.
01:06:23
Steele
Audio dramas as a form are kind of coming back and people are rediscovering them because there's the discovery of what can an audio drama do that you can't do with anything else? What are the strengths of it? Rather than, you know, I'm trying to just shove this television show into this format. And you can see that, by the way, in the early television episodes of the, particularly the Lone Ranger, where they're the old radio writers and they're just like saying things that you're seeing and like, yeah, no, duh, the guy is dead. I can see him there. But they're so used to this format where you have to explain everything that it leaks through. And so I think that's a little bit of what's going on here with some of these bigger budget productions. It's great that we're getting people interested in it.
01:07:04
Steele
It's great that we're having, you know, big time actors in it. It's cool that the form is coming back, but it's. It's still. People are still trying to rediscover what makes the form.
01:07:14
Case
Yeah. That makes me think about with like Marvel's what if? And people criticizing a lot of the voice actor, or rather a lot of the movie actors coming in and voicing parts on it as typically not, like, not getting it, quote, unquote, like, not getting the vibe of like, how to be animated voice character. But that's also the reverse, like, because that's coming from the other direction. Like this is the point where we're coming before we go into TV and so forth. And, you know, like, they. There is a narrator, but the narrator usually is not describing too much of the actual scene. Like, usually it's conveyed by the dialogue, which works here, but would be, like you said, terrible if you could actually see what's happening.
01:07:50
Adam
Like, yeah, I loved when Superman had to point out to Batman that a guy was stabbed. That was my favorite part of this episode. Like, it's just like he said, like, he's stabbed. Like, wait, Batman doesn't know this. And like, I, it was definitely one of those, like, I understand it's the needs of the format, but also it's like, oh, boy, this Batman's dumb.
01:08:13
Case
It is not a smart Batman.
01:08:15
Steele
No, no, absolutely.
01:08:16
Case
Superman was the way better detective in this whole thing. And part of that is that he has supervision. But, like.
01:08:21
Jmike
Like, you know, there was also the one time where they were on the. The boat, and Superman sees, like, something hanging off of a piece of cloth hanging off a piece of wire, like, 15ft in the air, and it's, like, pitch black. Everyone's like, how'd you see that? He's like, oh, I have. Really good.
01:08:38
Adam
I was looking for it.
01:08:39
Steele
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:08:41
Adam
But I also like how, like, he was. Speaking of, like, kind of not great at their jobs where, like, Clark is, like, actually believes that Lois might have actually done this. He's like, well, like, there's all this circumstantial evidence. I'm like, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence, buddy. Like, and you're just, like, sitting there, like, letting this trial go through, and you're just. Okay. It's also, like, even to that point, it's. It. I had difficulty. And again, because of all the stuff that we've since listened to of not imagining a story where Superman doesn't just show up and be like, this is not okay. Like, just this idea that Clark Kent would sit there during an entire trial and be like, well, I kind of think she did, because she said this jail thing, that makes no sense. And, like, I. All this.
01:09:34
Adam
You know, how do I. How you expect me to prove this? I'm like, you're fucking Superman, man. Like, do something. You know, I get it. I get it. It's a weekly thing. It's 10 minutes long, and you need to have, like, a cliffhanger. But it's. It was interesting hearing Superman be so. Just kind of like, well, the cops said she did it, so.
01:09:55
Jmike
Oh, well.
01:09:56
Steele
Oh, well, oh, well.
01:09:58
Case
I mean, it is a Superman that tries to work within the system as much as he can. Like, appearing as a deus ex machina to solve problems occurs in this all but, like, typically, he tries to not involve Superman in the situation if he can help it. Like, he shows up as Clark Kent to try to find Lois. Like, as opposed to just, like, trying to break through everything as Superman. Like, he could intimidate the guy who owns the river of horrors if he wanted to as Superman. Like, he could do all those things, but he's. He. He wants Clark Kent to handle. He wants. Like, there's kind of an element of the. Like, show them the way, like, have impressive people function within their society without needing that. That's.
01:10:39
Steele
That super God, truth, justice, the American way, you know, Very much this. Very much this character, which obviously has changed Radically, not just in the last year with, you know, the change of that, but also. But just over time. And this. It's indicative of the time of the late 40s. It's, you know, it's. You know, he's working within the system. You know, it's. And he's also. This character is much more Clark Kent than Superman. He grew up as Clark Kent. You know, he is not Kal El. He is not from this race of. He is from Krypton. But that's not the story that we have now associated, particularly post film 70, you know, the late 70s, but also post crisis, where there is this whole mythology around this. You know, this is. This kid grew up in Kansas, now he's in Metropolis.
01:11:28
Steele
He's got these superpowers. Yeah, he's from this other planet. But, you know, that's not the format of it. You know, he's Clark Kent first and foremost. And then he dons the visage of Superman. Whereas now we're more like, well, which is the real person? Is Clark Kent the mask, or is Superman the mask? Ditto Batman. Whereas if you talk at this time, of course, it's Bruce Wayne. And he just happens to put on the mask of Batman every once in a while. Now it's.
01:11:55
Case
Except in this.
01:11:56
Steele
Once again, yes, right, exactly.
01:11:59
Case
Except for this, he's just Batman. There's no. There is no Bruce Wayne.
01:12:02
Adam
Yeah. And I was thinking about that a lot when I was listening to this. Like, the whole. Who is the real. Like, who is Clark? Is Clark Kent the real person or Superman the real person while listening to this? And I mean, I think me, as both a listener and as a writer, my tastes have sort of skewed towards. I kind of think Clark Kent is who he really is and Superman is the mask and. Whereas the universe is with Batman. But that's me.
01:12:32
Case
Yeah. Despite all this conversation, we actually really haven't gotten into the plot because the plot is kind of basic. Like the. The. The majority of it all is like, Lois is accused, framed for murder because she looks like a woman who murdered someone. And there's this whole confidence gang that was, like, tied up with it. And they were using this, like, amusement park as their base of operations so that they could. Could set this whole thing up. It's 14 episodes. And like, that, like, that synopsis really could have taken three. Maybe like two. Maybe two. Like, like, it's incredible how much that they stretch this whole thing out. Like, Batman and Superman are wandering around a hall of mirrors for, like 20 minutes. Two episodes, like, they're. And that's not. That's not.
01:13:14
Case
When they're in the river of horrors where, like, Lois actually gets kidnapped. Like, they're like. Like all these scenes happen a lot. I will say the series is a little a cap. It's not. It's. It's still like leaning into starting to get into the whole, like, cops are always right, but, like, the Irish cop is not a particularly competent character. And Henderson, they. They shouted him quite a bit. Like, he's got a. Like he's just doing his job and he has evidence. But like, they're like, they are not completely like, oh, look, the cops are always right, but they are a little bit effectively. Yeah, I don't know. Like, this. The story is fine. It was like I was like, oh, yeah, it's the Batman, Superman team up. And it leads into kryptonite.
01:13:50
Case
But it's also kind of like Batman didn't need to be here. It could have just been like another reporter. It could have been literally anyone. Like Barry White, honestly, could have done that job if he really needed to. And yeah, it's sort of just like. It's interesting to see the snapshot so early in the Caped crusader's career. Like, he's not defined. He's not there. Superman is way more popular and has way more personality in this whole thing and is. Is a better detective, is more competent in addition to being Superman. He's like, on such a different scale. I don't know. But it was fun to revisit. And like I said, we'll, you know, we'll be talking more about it, but I don't know, closing thoughts for you guys.
01:14:26
Steele
I think it's a fun revisit looking at this particular period in time. You know, there's. There's a lot of stuff in this period where that is lost to time. We talked about that first crossover that's largely gone, and it's kind of. It's a time capsule. And I think looking at it from that perspective in the same way that not everybody has to like the classics, not everybody has to like Citizen Kane. But to understand where it stands in cinematic pantheon and understand why it is revolutionary, I think that's important. And I think that this is. It's a snapshot of what these characters were like. And it's cool to see all the permutations and changes that have come since then.
01:15:04
Adam
I'm gonna support that. I think my. I enjoyed this so much from a. Both from just like an audio drama producer standpoint of learning about where the. How the format evolved and changed within America at that time, but also just seeing how Superman and Batman evolved as characters in their nascent careers. I think it's so elucidating and puts everything into new context. And I, again, I would, as I said at the top, I wouldn't say I enjoyed it, but I really enjoyed listening to this.
01:15:38
Case
J Mike, this is your first time listening to this chunk while you're listening to stuff from the 40s or from like literally 1940 and then we jumped five years in the show.
01:15:47
Jmike
I love going back and listening to these things mainly because you get to hear like the old gangster. See, we've got this guy locked up, Steve Mira. And I was like, oh, this is awesome.
01:15:56
Case
We haven't even talked about the jive talking like henchmen, but like, nor will we. But just like I. Because of the voice actor, I can't not picture him as a white guy. But I did realize on this listen that like, oh, he's probably coated as black. None of that's cool.
01:16:09
Steele
Yeah, no, there's a lot of problematic stuff in this. Subtle and not so subtle. But it's. Again, it's a time caps.
01:16:16
Jmike
Yeah, it's good to go back and listen to stuff and yeah, also Batman sucks in this thing. I just had to put it out there. A little salt and nose. For all you Batman fans, he was not great in this series. That's it. That's my thoughts.
01:16:36
Case
Like I said, we'll be talking more about the next couple arcs of this show because it's some really important ones. The Adamant showed up recently in the Superman Smashes the Clan comic, which is directly based on the comics that we talked about where Superman smashed the Clan. So they're trying. They're definitely trying. This is like one of the high water marks of the era of like having some social progress and having some good stuff going on. But it's also still the mid-40s. Like, you know, anyway. But it was really fun to like dig back into the. These classic radio shows and to really think about audio dramas. And I'm really glad that we had the two of you on for that since it's. Since you're actively working on those kind of material. Like, I've always been fascinated with audio stuff.
01:17:22
Case
I did a play in New York that was about a radio show going on. Like, I love like playing with all this stuff, but you guys are actively making those shows. So give some closing plugs.
01:17:33
Adam
Well, you can listen to the Green Llama and the Queens of the Sapphire Sea on basically any of your favorite podcasters. Apple Podcast, Spotify, Audible. They each have their own separate shows, Green Llama with one L and Queens the Sapphire Sea. Or you can listen to our main podcast, Radio Room, which is available again on all podcasters such as Audible, Pod, Apple Podcast and yeah, everything really.
01:18:00
Steele
If you like Batman the Animated Series, you're gonna like the Green Llama. If you like Porco Rosso and Hayao Miyazaki, you're gonna like Queens of the Sapphire. See, they're both fun shows. There's a lot of episodes that you can binge your way through, particularly on a cross country trip or if you're on a commute. Give us a shot. We're, we're doing a lot of fun stuff. We got more episodes coming out and you can find me on Twitter at Words of Steel. W O R D S O F S T E E L E and.
01:18:27
Adam
You can find me on Twitter Mlance Garcia. Also Tick tock and Instagram. Though I probably mostly it's just cats on Instagram.
01:18:38
Case
J Mike, how about you?
01:18:40
Jmike
You can find me on Twitter mike101. I might have to do the Instagram thing. The cat, the cat memes are. They sound kind of fun.
01:18:49
Case
Always trying to step up your game, your, your gift game, your meme game.
01:18:52
Jmike
I know, right?
01:18:53
Case
Jmax a good follow. You should follow him. You should also follow the show on Twitter at Men of Steel Pod. You can follow me on Twitter at Case Aiken. You can find us@ certainpov.com where we've got more episodes of this show, tons of other shows. You can find a link to our discord where you can interact with us directly. And yeah, next time. I have no idea what we're talking about next time. J Mike, I cannot. Like we have recorded so many episodes in the last couple weeks, I. My brain is turning to mush. But we will be back in two weeks and until then, stay super man.
01:19:26
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo is by Chris Bautista. Episode art is by Case Aiken. And our theme is by Jeff Moon.
01:19:45
Steele
Cool.
01:19:45
Case
All right, so I sent you guys an outline of just to try to keep it a little bit tighter since I know you know, baby.
01:19:50
Steele
Appreciate that.
01:19:51
Case
Yeah, since as like the three hour episode we did on Superman 3 when Adam was on last time.
01:19:59
Adam
Oh my God, that was three hours.
01:20:00
Case
No, it was pretty long. I was like, holy.
01:20:04
Jmike
It's.
01:20:05
Adam
Yeah. Like we haven't even gotten to Evil.
01:20:06
Case
Superman when all these.
01:20:08
Adam
Oh my God.
01:20:08
Steele
Right?
01:20:08
Case
I think we cracked the hour and a half mark.
01:20:10
Adam
Yeah.
01:20:12
Steele
Hi, I'm Matt, aka Stormageddon, and I'm.
01:20:14
Adam
The host of CPOV autographs@ certainpov.com it is a bi weekly interview series where I interview folks from all over the arts, from writers to comedians to magicians.
01:20:24
Steele
To musicians, even actors, directors, historians, podcasters, pretty much anyone who's willing to chat.
01:20:30
Adam
With me for a little bit. If you like interesting conversations with even more interesting people, go to certainpov.com or.
01:20:37
Steele
Wherever you get your podcasts.
01:20:38
Adam
And remember, music is live.