Episode 157 - Supreme: The Return with Logan Crowley

This week on Men of Steel, Case and Jmike are joined once again by Logan Crowley to dive into the back half of Alan Moore’s Supreme saga — Supreme: The Return! We explore how Moore redefined heroism through metafiction, nostalgia, and some of the boldest Superman-adjacent storytelling of the ’90s.

Support us on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/CertainPOVMedia

Men of Steel Full Episode

Originally aired: November 8, 2025

Edited by Sophia Ricciardi

Scored by Geoff Moonen

Certain Point Of View is a podcast network brining you all sorts of nerdy goodness! From Star Wars role playing, to Disney day dreaming, to video game love, we've got the show for you! Learn more on our website: https://www.certainpov.com

Join us on Discord: https://discord.gg/wcHHer4

PODCAST SHOWS:

▶ Men Of Steel - https://www.certainpov.com/men-of-steel​

FOLLOW US:

▶ Twitter: @certainpovmedia @menofsteelpod

▶ Instagram: @certainpovmedia

Outline

Introduction and Context Setting on Supreme Comic Series (00:00 - 10:00)

• Discussed the Alan Moore run on Supreme comics, focusing on the second volume, Supreme: The Return and its relation to the initial story, Supreme: The Story of the Year.

• Introduced guest Logan Crowley and recapped the original Story of the Year to bring listeners up to speed.

Detailed Issue-by-Issue Breakdown and Analysis (10:18 - 01:56:09)

• Explored themes, characters, and narrative arcs of Supreme: The Return in granular detail.

• Noted meta-narrative techniques, cultural references, inconsistencies, tonal shifts, and artistic variations issue by issue.

Art and Production Quality Discussions (15:36 - 01:24:50)

• Critiqued the inconsistent artwork across different issues and artists including Rick Veitch, Chris Sprouse, Jim Starlin, Ian Churchill, and Matt Smith.

• Noted the impact of publisher issues and artist changes on overall series cohesion and visual storytelling.

Cultural and Social Commentary in the Comic (38:45 - 57:22)

• Discussed controversial storylines such as the Confederacy winning the Civil War due to Wild Bill Hickok’s actions and its culturally sensitive implications.

• Analyzed dated humor and some problematic depictions reflecting 1990s sensibilities.

Narrative and Thematic Observations (47:00 - 01:50:56)

• Discussed thematic motifs like closed time loops, meta-fictional elements, homage to classic Silver Age Superman narratives, and the contrast with other Alan Moore works like Tom Strong.

• Explored the balance between classic superhero optimism vs. cynicism leaking through the narrative.

Discussion on Supporting Characters and Legacy (25:00 - 01:40:16)

• Elaborated on the roles of various supporting characters enhancing the Supreme mythos like Judy Jordan, Diana Dane, and Radar the canine hero.

• Highlighted the influence on later comics and the impact on the Superman archetype and analog characters.

Guest Insights and Personal Reflections (00:00 - 02:30:00)

• Logan Crowley shared fresh perspectives, especially on the nostalgic value and unique features of Supreme.

• J. Mike and Case Aiken reflected on the series’ strengths and weaknesses as longtime fans and comic enthusiasts.

Promotions and Related Projects (02:28:00 - 02:36:00)

• Promoted related podcasts like Single Bound and Trade School and thanked Patreon supporters.

• Encouraged listeners to engage with the content and share their thoughts.

Transcription

00:00
Logan
I've had so many comic book shop fights with people being like, that dog stupid. What do you. What else do you want? You want pink kryptonite? Do you want, you know, do you want a bunch of robots in his closet or whatever?

00:13
Jmike
You know, like, you know, there is a horse too.

00:16
Logan
Yeah.

00:17
Case
Yep. There's Comet the Stallion. Supreme or Super Horse. It's Sirius the Stallion.

00:23
Logan
Sorry, friend, I think you just did a slip up. Supreme. Yeah, no, but and that like Comet.

00:30
Case
The Super Horse and I do.

00:31
Logan
I acknowledge that if were talking about bringing back Beppo the Super monkey. No, don't.

01:03
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Aiken and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Jmike Folson.

01:09
Jmike
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show.

01:12
Case
Yes, many happy returns indeed. Because we're touching back on a property that I love so goddamn much, even if it's really showing its age in the rereads, we are delving back into the Alan Moore run of Supreme. We are looking at the second volume, the incomplete story, the supreme, the return story that continued after his initial arc that ran for like the first year of the book. This picks up from there. It goes to the cancellation of supreme when the Maximum Press label completely collapsed and go and relaunched. And this is why it's called the Return, when Awesome Comics launched and brought the book back and it went for a few more issues and then completely fell apart and all that. But to have a conversation about this incomplete epic, we are joined by Logan Crowley.

02:04
Logan
Hi. Thank you so much for having me back. I can't wait. I love this comic.

02:09
Case
Awesome. Awesome. Thank you for just leading it off. So I've made no illusions about the fact that I am a huge fan of this run, just in general, and a massive fan specifically actually of this back half of the run. I think that the story of the year is really fun, but the best standalone issues are contained in this era of. Of the book, which I. I just freaking adore, like. So, Logan, before we started the call, you mentioned that you actually were not familiar with the back half of, or rather with the first half of the story, beyond the fact that you had listened to our episode on supreme the story of the year, or AKA the Supreme story of the year.

02:54
Case
So in a thing that we like to do, J. Mike, could you explain the story of supreme from just a CliffsNotes version of the story of the year and then a basic summation of what happens in this book?

03:12
Jmike
Oh, man, you want me to remember story of the year. It was a fever dream case. From what I remember, he started off in, like, the Valhalla of all the Supremes, where they go and they get rewritten or revised. Then. Oh, yeah, then I do remember that there was a whole showdown that went down when Dax took over his ex girlfriend's body and he rewrote her consciousness and took over her body and had been planning this huge master plot for, like, 60 years. And then when supreme came back, he put it all into motion and tried to take him out once and for all. That's what I remember from that book.

03:50
Case
Yeah. Yeah, that's a pretty tight. That's the big arc of the book. The thing that happens in between is that supreme, because he's coming from a fresh revision, re explores history. And so issue by issue, gives us a chronology going from the 40s to the 50s and forward in terms of flashbacks to periods of Supreme's history, which is basically like a lesson in terms of. Or a history lesson in terms of comic book lore, at least up until the 90s. But yeah, you nailed the big arc, which is that from the get go, Dax has taken over the body of Judy Jordan, which is the Lana Lang equivalent for supreme, who is a Superman analog with all the serial numbers filed off. And that's. That's as far as you go on the character.

04:41
Logan
They're not even that filed. Like, you can run your finger.

04:43
Case
No, no. Yeah, you can still, like, if you rub your finger over it, you can feel the impression of what the numbers were. Like, if you were Matt Murdock, you could definitely tell what. What it was. So, yes, Darius Dax, who is the Lex Luthor analog, had died of cancer, took over Judy Jordan by way of nanobots, and then abandoned her body to take over the equivalent of Amazo, which they called magno in the story, and then fused with their version of kryptonite called supremium to fall backwards in time as the supremium man, giving the powers to first Suprema Sally Crane, Supreme's adopted sister.

05:24
Case
And then he fused with even more supremium and fell backwards in time and turned into the meteor that gave young Ethan Crane the powers of the first Blade, thus creating a complete closed lo of time for the existence of this weird meteorite thing.

05:37
Jmike
Fever dream. I was right.

05:39
Case
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's certainly like. Like, this is a series that loves, like, closed time loops, as we will discuss, as in this volume. But yeah, so that's supreme, the story of the year. J. Mike, what then? Happens in supreme the Return.

05:55
Jmike
Oh, gosh. So it first starts off where they.

05:57
Case
You don't need to do a play by play. We're going to do a play by play.

06:00
Jmike
When we do there, he has more adventures with a cliff notes Mr. Misfitlik. And then they have an adventure like. How would I describe this? With all the villains escape the non Phantom Zone. That's kind of what that is. It's like a jailbreak episode. There is a fun episode with episode. It's a fun issue with his version of Crypto, where Crypto gets out and has a lot of fun at night and Then has like 3, 000 puppies the next day and they all go rampant. That's my favorite episode of this part. And then it kind of wraps up with his old friend Supremium. Was it Supremium man or what? I forget his name.

06:42
Case
Well, Darius Dax.

06:43
Jmike
Yeah. But he comes back and has like this whole like, confrontation that kind of like doesn't go anywhere but like Billy, who's been in prison most of this. Most of this arc comes out and tries like have like a one one conversation like, hey, man, I've been there. It's gonna be okay. And then he fuses with Dax and he. They fuse consciousnesses and they go through time again.

07:04
Case
Oh, oh, sorry. Not. Not that Darius.

07:06
Logan
Sorry.

07:07
Case
Darius Dax is part of that story. But. But the supreme man that we're Supremium questions is a separate character also called the Meteor Master.

07:14
Logan
I did.

07:14
Jmike
That's what it was.

07:15
Logan
I had a whiplash there for a second. I was like, was he Dax too? Did I miss that?

07:19
Case
No, no. That would be wild if somehow. And like, they. We'll talk about that more when we get to it. But then the book kind. And that is. Is sort of the unfortunate thing. The. There's a clear story they're building to because they set up the inverse of the. The Supremacy, which is like the Valhalla First Supremes. They have. I believe it's Daxor, the evil version of that, where all the Darius Daxes go and reside in. And so they set up that like. Oh, there's. There's an evil version of. Of this place that we've had as. As our sort of like, awesome place to go to. And like, only Supremes in his. His world can. Could be possibly taken to. You know, like, taken out of reality when it is revised and. And go into the space.

08:04
Logan
Nope, Nope.

08:04
Case
There's actually an evil version of that. And clearly they were setting up a. A giant war between the two of those.

08:09
Jmike
Right.

08:10
Case
Now here's the thing that gets kind of wild. The story does kind of have a conclusion and it kind of has two conclusions. So first up, Erik Larson took over the book like 15 years later and took the script for the issue that fell after this one or the following script, which was finished but never drawn, and did that issue and then went off and wrote his own continuation of the supreme story as a Supreme book. So that book continued until it kind of just petered out because it was fine. Eric Larson, I like, I, I love Savage Dragon, but the, the Supreme Run was trying to make a book that was very much of the 90s, fit into this like late 2000s, early 2010s kind of paradigm and do some interesting things.

09:09
Case
But it didn't have the magic of the Alan Moore run unto itself. And, and had lost some of its steam and was just, you know, a weird kind of vibe. Like they brought back the grim 80s supreme, basically, and he becomes the de facto supreme in our timeline. Like rewriting the rewrite that we had dealt with up until that point.

09:31
Jmike
The rewrite of the rewrite, yes.

09:33
Logan
Backlash to the backlash to the thing that's just begun as Bo Burnham.

09:37
Jmike
Well, there was that whole bit where he takes. Was it Diana? I forget her name to like the supreme thing. And all the Diana's from come together and they're all at the bar. Yeah. And so you have like Soul Sister and like a whole bunch of them are sitting at the bar and there's like that one depressed Diana who's.

09:53
Case
Like, yeah, traumatized 80s Diana.

09:55
Jmike
I was like, wait, what is this?

09:58
Logan
It's Alan Moore making fun of Alan Moore. Yeah. So.

10:04
Case
And then because that one was an unsatisfactory conclusion to the Supreme Story for a lot of fans, myself included, there is actually a fan edit which I believe has art by Chris Sprouse to wrap up the story of it all. I will put a link to that in the show notes when this goes up, which is also. It's a very quick wrap up to the whole supreme story, but it's there to wrap it up in some kind of way, which is admirable because this was a series that was really loved. It's also a series that is very much like the beta test for what would go on to be Tom Strong. Logan, are you familiar with Tom Strong at all?

10:45
Logan
Yes, I read the first two volumes of Tom Strong and I do. I like this better because I'm a Superman fan. But I think Tom Strong is objectively a better version of what Alan Moore was trying to do. I think in this, Alan Moore is trying to do classic superhero comics and turn off his cynical knob. And. And while it is, I love it, he just clearly can't do it like that. Cynicism pokes through, you know, a bunch of different edges like. Like the edgy, traumatized Diane Dane and. And some of the other stuff. Whereas in Tom Strong feels much more sincere throughout. Just a pure version of what. Of what it is.

11:32
Case
Yeah, I. I think that's a very well said sort of take on it. Like, this is of course using a full on Superman archetype versus the like Doc Savage archetype that they kind of go with Tom. With Tom Strong. So there's In. Is there? And it's like he's using a Rob Liefeld character. Like that's like sort of the funny part about this all. There's kind of a joke just in that this is such an optimistic book made out of the Rob Liefeld Superman knockoff that. That ran for 40 issues and no one really gave a damn about. And then Moore came on and turned it into the flagship of the awesome comics line for however long that actually ran.

12:14
Logan
No, it's. It's what Rob Liefeld supreme is. What if Stone Cold Steve Austin was Superman but with none of his charisma. Like, it's a really bleak. I can't stand it.

12:26
Case
Yeah, I like, I think there are pros and cons to it, but. But it was not a serious. But part of the reason why I think there are pros to it is because I. I'm a gigantic Superman nut and love Superman analogs. To the point that I have an ongoing YouTube series about Superman analogs. Like, it's a series that has no solid direction. There's a lot of revamps that happen just within the first 40 issues. Before we get to the supreme of Alan Moore, he becomes a very religious figure. At one point he is wielding the hammer of Thor. For a while there, I only recently.

12:59
Logan
Found out Keith Giffen takes over writing halfway through that. I might circle back and try that at some point.

13:06
Case
I love Keith. I need to go find those issues because I've read some of the, like some of that period, but I did not realize that Giffen was the writer for that chunk. And so I am really curious to go through that era specifically because I've read this era to death. And then actually I should note also outside of this being sort of like concluded in Some ways in Tom Strong, like a lot of the ideas that they're setting up, like the big amassing of forces that happens in this book, like where supreme has a whole world of automatons and a whole world of superdogs and he's got the supremacy and this whole thing that's all played out in Tom Strock. But then Warren Ellis did a series called Supreme Blue Rose, which we will look at some point on this show.

13:52
Case
And that is taking a very weird, cerebral take on the revisions cycle. It's like a noir story about Diana Dane trying to figure out what's going on as the world has just been revised.

14:05
Logan
Okay. I. I saw that in a store once, but I. But I haven't picked it up.

14:10
Case
Yeah, it's. It's very cool. It's.

14:11
Logan
It's very.

14:12
Case
Warren Ellis in very much is like. Is trans metropolitan kind of style.

14:18
Logan
Maybe not then. I, I sometimes. I occasionally like Warren Ellis, but there's a lot of. A lot of his trans metropolitan. Again, the. The cynicism.

14:28
Case
Well, it's not. It's not the shock kind of cynicism that Transmat has.

14:33
Logan
Oh, okay. But.

14:34
Case
But it has this sort of like the big heady ideas kind of space.

14:37
Logan
Oh, I can get behind that.

14:38
Case
Yeah. I'd say it's worth checking out. Yeah.

14:41
Logan
Well, I would give it a shot. Yeah. I love this. I'm in a very weird place with this because I've had. I've had this trade since high school and I love this trade. But supreme is so hard to get that this is all I've ever. This and the Liefeld stuff is all I've ever read. I've read this a bunch, but. But I've never been able to track down the rest of it. That.

15:06
Case
That is wild. And now. So the supreme series was one of those series that I spent a good chunk of my time being like a collector for like really getting into comics to collect. To collect those. Like, and like going to different stores trying to find back issues because I got into it after the first year had. Had run and so by that point, you know, trying to find that first. The first 12 issues was really difficult. And so it. It before it was the first big series like that for me, followed by Miracle man where I was like actively trying to like pick up all the issues and. And seeing what could be found at. At random stores. And that was, you know, probably given our age difference like 15 years before you.

15:49
Logan
So yeah, that they're definitely. By the time I came down the Pipe I did occasionally find supreme in long boxes. There was no Miracle Man. Miracle Man. Every. Every ad for Miracle man was on the backboard of a comic shop by the time I got to hunting.

16:05
Case
Yeah. But the good news was like, you know, not too well at this point. Fairly long ago, Marvel got the rights to it and was able to republish all the trade paperbacks.

16:14
Logan
Oh yeah, I've got all of them.

16:15
Case
Which at least made the story accessible. And it's also available on. On Amazon, formerly Columnixology. But that. That's a whole thing. Let's talk about this book. Let's talk about this book. So I want to do. I want to by issue on this one and like, we'll. We'll try to keep it quick on. On some of these, but I. I love all the weird stories that. That happen in here and I. I feel it's a disservice to the book not to like, at least address each of the cool ideas that happens in each issue. So J. You alluded to this already. The first issue in the arc is where we get a Mr. Mxy Spitalic analog in the form of Zaz the Sprite supreme, which I just adore. So it's.

16:57
Logan
We.

16:57
Case
We open this up with some fun details.

16:59
Logan
We.

16:59
Case
We get the mirror villains try. We. We set up the Billy Friday like computer device being in the mirror or the hell of mirrors because he's taken out of there. Apparently he's considered cruel and unusual punishment by the mirror villains, which I thought was a really great idea.

17:16
Logan
You know, I.

17:17
Case
And then.

17:17
Logan
Go ahead.

17:18
Case
Sorry, go.

17:19
Logan
I was reading that Billy Friday is apparently supposed to be Grant Morrison and that is part of their feud is that he is very insulted by Billy Friday as a depiction of him. But I feel like Billy Friday really serves as kind of all of the British Invasion writers.

17:40
Case
Yeah, I always took it as broader than a specific one. But it is well documented that Moore and Morrison have a bit of a feed and more of it going. Sorry, M O R e of it going in the direction of more m O O R e having a grudge against Morrison rather than the other way around, just by virtue of Morrison ascribing the due honors to more for the, you know, the stellar work that he created in the medium of comics. So that, yeah, it's one that I find frustrating because like I am a more ist. Like I very much in like I. I go Alan Moore first before Grant Morrison, but I do really appreciate Grant Morrison and like I find it very frustrating where there is that.

18:32
Logan
That.

18:33
Case
That grudge. Yeah, because, like, come on. Like, y'.

18:38
Jmike
All.

18:38
Case
Y' all are creating some of the best stuff in comics. Like.

18:40
Logan
Well, like.

18:41
Case
And. And from a similar perspective, unfortunately.

18:45
Logan
The bedrock of that disagreement, though, as I understand it, is how much body hair a person should have. Like, more. More clearly in favor of all of the body hair you could possibly amass in your entire life. And Grant Morrison is anti eyebrows, even. So, like, I don't think they're ever going to find common ground.

19:04
Case
No, of course not. But what I was going to say is that what one thing they do in this issue, which I think is just an incredible story device, is they have the issue within the issue that they've got. They have the physical comic book of Supreme. I think it's issue 53.

19:20
Jmike
Yeah, it's issue 53. Yeah.

19:21
Case
Yeah. So they have the actual comic book of Supreme. 53 Inside the book, and so you can see, like, panels of it. And at first, it's just a clever device for them to sort of set up like, oh, hey, there's this, like, weird thing going on here that is breaking reality. And then we get a fight with Omni man, the supreme, or the Superman analog within the world of supreme, that supreme is the artist.

19:46
Logan
Did this remind you guys at all of the Science Dog issue of Invincible?

19:52
Case
A little bit, yeah.

19:53
Logan
I felt like between that and the Omni man, old Bobby Kirkman may be owing some royalties. It's pretty close.

20:02
Case
Yeah. I mean, I always took Kirkman as a fan of a lot of the comic books that were coming out around this time. I see allusions directly to many of those sources. I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, Omni man clearly has a design language that echoes supreme just in his basic look with the white and red color scheme. Now, that said, Omni man as a name is not that hard to come to if you're looking just for some sort of generic Superman knockoff name.

20:27
Logan
Goodish guy. Yeah.

20:29
Case
But it's fun. We get a nice little back and forth between two characters who are on similar levels. And it's fun where it's like. Where it's like he's got these powers that you. You don't have, like, Omni exhalation. What the hell is Omni Isolation?

20:43
Logan
I think. I think that's a reference to the treasury edition, Captain Marvel vs Superman. Because in that. In that issue, the fight between them, there is a lot of that kind of thing brought up with. At one point, Superman just shouts Captain Marvel into a hole in the ground and stuff like that. And I. I thought that was a riff on that. It seemed very similar.

21:08
Case
Yeah, I could see that it certainly. That certainly would be in the. The purview of More to do. He loves doing those kind of those deep cut references. More to the point that I often didn't catch those when I was first reading this book. Like, I. I knew that's what he was doing, but it was like there were things where I. For example, the Shadow Supreme. I was not familiar with the negative Superman, so I just thought it was a Bizarro riff. And I didn't realize that it was like, yes, it is a Bizarro Rif, but it also a riff on this even older character who is a prototype for Bizarro. Yeah, we get the introduction of Carl Chambers in this, which is nice. It's basically the equivalent of Ron Troupe. I'm trying to be delicate in the way I'm saying this.

21:49
Case
It's because the cast up until this point has been very white, both here and with the character of Ron Troupe in the Superman books. So it was a necessary introduction because the supporting cast in this book was ridiculously white, and that needed to be changed. So that is why the character was introduced. As a additional editor on the book.

22:12
Logan
I hope. I. Unfortunately, I am afraid that he was only added and this is jumping forward a little bit, but I am.

22:19
Case
Oh, for the next issue.

22:20
Logan
I'm very afraid that he was only added for a very important joke in the next. In the next issue. That. That. When I. When I got to that next issue and saw what they did with him.

22:34
Case
Two issues from now, I just, like, I just.

22:36
Logan
Oh, yeah, yeah. But that. That one hit me like a ton of bricks. I was like, oh, maybe there's a reason this isn't getting reprinted as fast as you would expect.

22:46
Case
Yeah, there's. There's a few spots like that and it's. It is wild where. Where it's just like, oh, yeah, what?

22:53
Jmike
What?

22:53
Case
Honestly, I think. I don't think was in Malicious intent in a lot of spots, but it's just like, oh, time has marched on in terms of our. Our cultural sensitivities of things. But yeah, then we. Then we get the introduction of Saz the Sprite supreme. And that is a fun character. Like, it's very much a bat mite style character. And it's, you know, it indicates that there's like a bat mite equivalent for all the superheroes, but he does a bunch of, like, cool visual things. They do, like, a fun effect of flipping the city skyline and they turn all the clouds into sponges. But ultimately, the way they defeat him, I think is so cool. Which is that they just read the comic book.

23:36
Logan
Yeah. Skip to the end.

23:40
Case
Yeah. They turn to the end of the book and they figure out. And this is a fun detail, which is that what had already been established, which is that Sass the Sprite supreme can only exist in a prime number dimension. They realize, like, wait, but technically we're in the fourth dimension, which is not a prime number. And they point that out to him and all of a sudden he's like, oh, I guess I can't exist anymore.

24:00
Logan
Yeah. It's a fantastic Mixelplick style story. And the way that they get rid of him is the best versions of Alan Moore's stuff. Like, it's meta in a way that just absolutely works.

24:14
Case
Yeah. And then the last thing about this issue that I want to point out is that it is setting up the bigger world that is going on in the supreme universe. So it's setting up the Judgment Day arc that was going on as a limited series. That was the full retooling and establishing of everything that had been Rob Liefeld's extreme universe into this new awesome comics universe. Awesome comics. Being the publisher for the books at the time, which was the Rob Liefeld, like, rebranding of his. Of his line, but with Alan Moore getting to call all the shots. And so they. They talk about how there are advertisements and you can see the advertisement on the back of the issue when it's like, yeah, for Judgment Day, which was the actual advertisement on the back of the issue, if you had the physical copy.

24:59
Jmike
They think they're so funny.

25:00
Logan
Who. Who is that character? I. I don't know if he's a Batman analog or.

25:06
Jmike
Or.

25:07
Logan
But the Die Hard. Is that who that is in the blue and the white at the end?

25:10
Case
Yeah. So he's trying to think of the best description for him. He's android that has been fighting since the war. Since World War II, and. And has had upgrades over the years. So he. He has some kind of Captain America details because he sometimes rocks a shield. But he would be more like the Human Torch if. If he just continued being a superhero forever as opposed to getting rebooted into being Johnny Storm. This is by. By the Human Torch. I mean, the Android Human Torch, the original. Yeah.

25:40
Logan
So this is another example of Rob Liefeld failing at stop making Captain America ripoffs or draw 25 and uno and just dying in a pile of cards.

25:50
Case
Yeah, like. Like I don't want to like say that he's too much like he. He is part of the group that they establish are like the Allies, which is like their Justice League equivalent alongside Super Patriots. So he's not, strictly speaking, they're Captain America. Like I said, he actually doesn't have a direct analog situation. It's. I'm just trying to say, like, oh, he's the most like these following characters. But like the Android part is like kind of important too. You know what though?

26:15
Logan
Good for Liefeld. If he's at least ripping off a couple characters at the same time. That's progress. That's a lot better than Agent America or any of the other stuff he was doing at the same time.

26:27
Case
That is true. This is in the era where you got the fighting American rights as we will discuss as we continue reading through this. All but moving on to the next story. This is the story of Judy Jordan, which I remember and having here. So I. Before, before we move on to the Jujordan, let's back up for a second because I don't want to rush anyone's thoughts. But before we move on to the next issue, is any thoughts about this one that either of you guys have that we haven't covered?

26:58
Logan
No, I, I don't have much for this. I mean this is pretty much a straight over the plate Mixel click story and I like it, but I definitely don't have as much to say about it as I do the others.

27:08
Jmike
I mean, it's a cool story. I do like the fact that like, oh, if we just read the comic, it'll tell us how this all ends. Haha. Wink, wink. Not, not to the camera. That's a cool little stranger than fiction type thing, but you know, it's just like Logan said, it's very straightforward.

27:22
Case
Cool. Yeah. So, moving on to the next issue. This is our Judy Jordan story. And I think that the Ballad of Judy Jordan is a really fun three part story with the first part being this like whole flashback sort of establishing the history. Just in case you don't remember what the, the previous issues, because the story of Judy Jordan up until that point had been spread out over the course of the 12 issues of supreme, the story of the year. So this was a good chance to sort of like condense it all for anyone and just like catch anyone up in terms of like what happened and where we're at with this. And I think it's kind of fun. We get A.

28:00
Case
A very, very one to one Judy Jordan in a suprematon robot body who puts on a costume that is like just exactly what like Lana Lang wore when she was. When she was a super being.

28:13
Logan
Yeah, when she climbed in the. Well, yeah, I definitely picked up on that. And. And you basically get one of the superpowered Lana and superpowered Lois cat fights in this. Yeah, yeah. I will say that I. The first. I did not remember how many panty shots there were in that.

28:34
Case
So yeah, that fight Here. Here's what's wild. If you look at the trade, they are showing the art. So in. In the actual issue when it was published, it was a different art for the main issue that. That was here. And then this was backup art. So they had two artists go through this same chapter and so. And when they did the reprint, they took the artist from the. The second artist like that art as opposed to what they had rolled with. With the original. And I have no idea why really, aside from.

29:05
Logan
I. I do.

29:06
Case
I did prefer this art, the panty shots and stuff, because I was a teenager. Yeah, because it. Because it also had sort of like this a sort of a weirder style to it, similar to like what is in the first chapter. And I forget who it was. Oh, but I do.

29:23
Logan
I can look that up.

29:24
Jmike
I was like, there is an obsessive amount at certain points. So like, who.

29:29
Case
Oh, it's very cheesecake.

29:30
Jmike
Like. Yeah, I get like the demographic. Is he now?

29:35
Case
Yeah, no. Judy Jordan has some very cheesecake proportions in this all. And. And likewise, like Suprema has. Is also drawn to be attractive on the eyes.

29:46
Logan
There's no way this is. Right. This trade that I have is saying that issue was drawn by Rick Veitch. And I know the flashbacks are. But there's no way that's who's drawing that fight scene. Right?

29:59
Case
Yeah. Like I said, there were two artists who did that chunk and that might have been Veitch who did the original version. And then they swapped it out for the. The sort of backup artist. It's really weird. I like, it's just a detail. I know because I happen to like have had the issue like at the time. And it was a weird thing that they did where basically they're. And it might have been to fill out page counts, but it was just there were three chapters and then at the end of the three chapters there was a fourth chapter which was just chapter two, but by. By this artist.

30:28
Jmike
Huh.

30:29
Logan
Well, now I gotta track down the issue and see which one I like better. Good luck, I guess.

30:36
Case
But it's fun having this like little cat fight between two super powered beings. It's hard with a character like supreme and with like Suprema to like have like really engaging fights and so and more does a really good job of coming up with circumstances for them to be real fights. Like from the Omni man battle to this one with the Suprematon body to future ones like they set the stakes of like good confrontations very well. But yeah, so then we get the final chapter with the. Which is Return to Chris Sprouse on the art. Yeah, we. We sort of are reminded that supreme is not the most empathetic character. And it's very similar to what happens with Tom Strong. Like the character is just not a very empathetic individual.

31:18
Case
He's just like kind of cold and a little distant because he's so like impressively powerful and good natured but not necessarily like emotion smart.

31:27
Logan
No, but. Well, and he's very much like the Silver and Bronze Age Superman in that way. It's one of the reasons why I, as a. And I love those Superman comics, don't get me wrong. But as a Triangle era defender, I think that people who remember that version of Superman being very empathetic and outgoing, have not revisited a lot of that material other than Elliot S. Magin in a long time because it's very much like this of that Superman is kind ofish knucklehead a lot of the times when it comes to emotional stuff.

32:04
Case
Yeah. This is the same kind of Superman that put Kara Zor El in an orphanage rather than setting her up with any kind of actual family.

32:12
Logan
Yeah. Or knocked out Martian Manhunter because he didn't want to take the time. Because he literally, he wanted to get back to work and he didn't want to take the time to listen to Martian Manhunter explaining to him why the War World key was. Was locked up. So he just cold cocks him so he can get on with his day.

32:31
Case
But yeah, so we established that this is a existential nightmare for Judy Jordan, like her mind having been recovered. And I don't think we actually like said that out loud. So Judy Jordan her mind inside the body that had been over. Taken over by Darius Dax, they were able to recover her mind. And because her body was.

32:50
Jmike
Had.

32:50
Case
Had aged at that point like 30 years from the point where she had last actually had any memories. Rather than put her in this like elderly woman's body, they put her in a robot body. That, that's the story of this issue. But this is a nightmare for her because now she has no point of connection. She is like 100, never going to be with supreme, the man of her dreams, like the person that she's always loved. And she can't even have a normal life now. And what is the future for her like? And the answer to that is S1 the. The ultimate supreme Anton, the. The supremeaton, who has a mind copy of supreme, who in the first volume was acting out a life of being Supreme.

33:32
Case
And actually the fun part there is that's the explanation for characters having crossovers with supreme prior to the. The Alan Moore takeover, where the character comes back from being in outer space. Those adventures were. Were ones with the suprematon who was acting out the role of supreme in that. That period.

33:51
Logan
That's fascinating. I didn't know that. That's cool. I love when he renames himself in this. I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but when he takes.

33:58
Case
Yeah, yeah.

33:58
Logan
When he takes the name Talos, I thought that was great. And a much better name for a robot servant of a Superman analog than Gary.

34:10
Case
But it is a name. It is a name. And this is also like the straight up Tom Strong sequence of him giving a Hyper saucer to someone like for example, the Modular man or Tom Strange. This is exactly the type of sequence that we would see in Tom Strong just a few years later. Now what I do adore is that they have the whole convention that Ethan Crane supposedly knows supreme and is able to just sort of recount to everyone the tales of like, what happened with the superhero. And it's just so goddamn fun that they just like lean on the fourth wall of being like, yep. Like just like back in the Silver Age. He happens to be friends and no one questions it. They're just fine with that.

34:52
Logan
Yeah, well. And you know, even more egregiously in the burn stuff when they reveal that to Lois that actually Ma and Pa Kent raised Superman and Clark Kent. And she's still. And she still doesn't figure it out. She doesn't. Doesn't take that last step.

35:13
Case
Well, anyway, so the suprematons set up their own, like, little world that they can populate with their own robot children. And it's kind of a cool thing. It, it. This is a theme that Alan Moore really likes to do where he takes a thing from the Silver Age and it's like, would you like to set up your Own like colony world out there in space. Yeah. Cool. Let's do it.

35:35
Jmike
Let's do it.

35:36
Logan
Yeah. I. With this and the radar stuff later, I would love for somebody to actually come back to this comic universe, but like, I don't know, almost in like a 2099 or a Batman beyond level and just see like what's happening in this universe now that it has a planet of Superman robots and a planet of cryptos. Super intelligent cryptos, you know, and just hands.

36:00
Jmike
With robot hands.

36:01
Logan
With robot hands. You know, just like, what does that do? What does that do to the. To society to have that around? I think that would be a really cool comic if somebody wanted to do a follow up to this.

36:12
Case
Yeah. Oh, what if it would be a fun one?

36:15
Logan
Sorry.

36:19
Case
Well, the. The dogs would clearly mop the floor with them. The supreme batons are very tough, but not quite a supreme being.

36:26
Logan
Yeah. But level of tough they can manufacture infinite, you know. Yeah. It's be great the.

36:35
Case
The politics of space. I. I would prefer to think that they wouldn't go to war just because they're both like enlightened beings that are able to create post scarcity worlds. But, you know, it could be fascinating to. To have a war.

36:48
Logan
Yeah.

36:48
Case
Would certainly be fun, but. Yeah. So that this is the first establishment of one of these like, world of super beings that. That more just loves creating. Before we move on to the next issue, is there any notes that you guys have about this one?

37:01
Logan
Just that I really feel like this in a lot of ways, this is the best ending to Lana Lang that character has ever gotten. I think it's really beautiful. I think it's kind of like a slightly more grounded takeoff of the Superman red, Superman blue thing. Except that I. I really think they sell at the end that she's not really settling for Talos, you know, that. That she kind of realizes when supreme puts her in this robot body, the flaws that he has as a person is kind of.

37:35
Case
Yeah.

37:36
Logan
Inherent in humanity. And realizes that Talos S1 gets it, you know?

37:42
Case
Yeah. He, in his own way, S1 is more human than Supreme.

37:46
Logan
Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

37:47
Case
Yeah. Like, he certainly is more emotional intelligence than supreme does. J. Mike, did you have anything you wanted to say about this issue?

37:56
Jmike
I was just laughing about the whole. He mentioned the whole good ending for Lana Lang and I was like, wow, she really hasn't had any good endings, actually.

38:03
Case
No. No. I mean, well, she's ended up with Pete Ross and she's ended up happy at times, but. But it never feels like it's quite as happy as she should be. You know, if. If her otp. Well, no, actually, I take it back. Superman, Batman, Generations. She ends up as an immortal being living with Superman in the far future. So there. Although that gets weird with, like, the whole grooming thing that happens in the later volumes, which. Yeah, we don't need to talk about. What we do need to talk about is before we moving on, move on to the next issue. The. The trade has a page separating these, which is some Alex Ross art. And I don't like it.

38:42
Jmike
Old Man Supreme.

38:43
Logan
The.

38:44
Case
The Old man supreme stuff.

38:45
Logan
And it.

38:46
Case
I find it so frustrating because Alex Ross did a bunch of actual supreme, like, artwork. He did like, or at least like, at least a poster or two. But there's like, one distinct one which is like the Supremacy shot. And it's like all the characters from the supreme universe, including Saz for some reason. But it has like all the, like the full Supremacy, like, all the various versions of Supreme. And it's this like, wonderful, huge, like, super tall vertical poster which I just wish that they had used as the COVID for one of these two trades. And they don't. They use these. This weird concept art that he did that they never used. They never printed anything with.

39:21
Case
With this character, like, design, except for these two traits where they just, like, include it as, like, the COVID stuff because, like, they have Alex Ross artwork to use as covers, which, yeah, I realize it makes sense. Like, Alex Ross is like a very good thing to put on. Put on the COVID of a book because it, like, helps sell. But. But this costume just was never used. And it's the costume that the only place that ever actually was used was in goddamn Kingdom Come with Brainiac's daughter.

39:46
Logan
Well, that's my problem with it is it's just. It is just way. This costume is way too Superman to kingdom come.

39:56
Case
Right?

39:56
Logan
And I know that with the character like supreme, where you're really splitting hairs and what is and isn't too much Superman, but I do actually. I wish the only part of this that I want to keep is the belt portion, which I know is only on there because Alex Ross loves to blow everybody's logo up too big for the frame.

40:16
Case
Yes. I was about to say, like, once. Once you see that, you can't help but unsee it. Alex Ross just loves having giant versions of the logo. And in this case, it's just the.

40:26
Logan
Superman S. But Supreme's costume is one of my beefs with it. I'll tell you. Actually, this is a good place to Put this in. My biggest beef with supreme as a character is that I am a 90s kid and my first definition of the word supreme was not very excellent. Awesome word for cool guys. It was do I want sour cream at Taco Bell? That was the first time in my life that I heard the word supreme or had to register what it meant. And is that a problem in and of itself? No. Is that a problem with a character that is so white? Just white suit, white hair, he couldn't look more like sour cream. And it.

41:09
Logan
It definitely gets in my way with this character's design and name all the time, but I actually like the Talos costume that he takes when he flies away. I think that's a better supreme costume.

41:23
Case
You know what's funny is that clearly the character Apollo from the Authority was designed with supreme in mind. He and Midnight are very much look like supreme and Dr. Professor Knight. Pardon me, the Batman analog from the series. And it's like, it's obvious, like Apollo especially because, like, the design is like, so close. And the Talus design is actually closer to Apollo slightly because it's got the circle inside the. The sort of V shape that, you know, is the chess part of the supreme design. And I always just found that, like, kind of fun where, like, there's just little bits of design things that just sort of blend together.

41:59
Logan
I do. I. I think the little touches that they do to change. Apollo tends to have the little bit of yellow, like the kind of half belt. He doesn't have the cape. He's got the longer hair. Like, I. They definitely are very similar, though. I can see what you're saying there. I'd never made that connection before, but.

42:16
Case
Why don't we move on to the next issue? Because we get a costume revision at least up front, and then we find out more things are different. But that costume revision is that Supreme's costume all of a sudden has the stars and bars on them. Yeah, yeah.

42:28
Logan
That wasn't really what I was. This is a real monkey's paw wish of. I'm like, Supreme's costume's really blank. I wish they'd add something that really stands out to it and. No, no, no, no. That's not what I meant. Right.

42:43
Case
You know, this is the thing that kind, like. All right, I. I've said this, and this is like such a. Such a dangerous thing to say. Objectively. I think that the stars and bars is like a good looking flag. Like, I. I think it is abhorrent, like, social. Like it Represents everything bad. But I think it, like, looks cool.

43:02
Logan
Yeah.

43:03
Case
If that. Like, if that makes any sense. And, like, I. I think that this costume actually, like, looks pretty cool, but it. Again, it's abhorrent. It's awful.

43:13
Logan
I have. Let me. This is a good place to. Because I have to say this at some point with this issue. I have such mixed feelings about this issue because as I'm from Georgia, right. I'm raised in an area that is very, like, statues of Confederate generals until very recently. All throughout my Civil War monuments, everywhere. I can't tell you how many Civil War reenactments I was taken to as a kid, both by my family and through the school. So this is tapping into something that I have a lot of mixed, uncomfortable feelings with. Right. And on top of that, I. I am in general, you know, I. I don't. I. This is something I don't touch on purpose. I try not to, because I think of it as a real black eye in my culture, specifically, that it.

44:11
Logan
That it was something that was so foundational. And. And as a rule, I have a. I do have a real pet peeve with Southerners only ever showing up to be depicted as. As goons and villains.

44:27
Case
Yeah.

44:27
Logan
And having said that, this is such a great premise for an issue that it. It. I basically spent this whole issue getting won over and pissed off from page to page. Like, I'd get. I'd get to one, and I'd be like, oh, this is great. This is brilliant. Alan, you're back. And then I'd get to Roboy, and I'd be like, oh, no, no.

44:57
Case
Yeah. So what. What happens in this issue is that what has been established already, which is the League of Infinity, which is clearly a beta test for the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. And we'll talk about that when we get to the little, like, one shot that they have later in this book. But the League of Infinity, which is the Legion of Superheroes analog for supreme, has ready access to time traveling. And one character in the League of Infinity, Wild Bill Hickok, a real historical figure, is set up to steal the plans for the atomic bomb from the future and gives them to the Confederacy so that the south wins the Civil War.

45:31
Jmike
A girl will like him.

45:33
Case
Yeah, so a girl will like him. And that's where the story picks up. Like, supreme wakes up one day, and he remembers everything because he's gone through revisions already, so he doesn't. His memory doesn't get wiped. He's confused by the whole Situation. So even though his costume changed, his. His mind doesn't. And so he wakes up one day and just all of a sudden the world is just like. I was about to say more racist, but it's not really more racist. It's like, just more overtly racist.

45:57
Logan
Somebody pulled off the gossamer. But I.

46:03
Case
So sorry.

46:04
Logan
Go ahead.

46:05
Case
So before we go further into this one, J. Mike Logan and I are very white.

46:13
Jmike
And.

46:16
Logan
Speaking of.

46:16
Case
With sour cream. Yeah.

46:19
Jmike
So.

46:22
Case
I don't want to overstep anything on this one. So just, by all means.

46:27
Jmike
I feel like.

46:28
Case
How are you feeling about this issue?

46:30
Jmike
I feel like you set me up because you were like, I can't wait to see what you think about one of these issues. And I was like, what does that mean? And I was like, oh, this is what he meant.

46:39
Case
I don't think I said it as. I can't wait. I was like.

46:41
Logan
I was.

46:42
Case
I. I was setting you up that I was curious what you were. How you're going to respond to one of these issues.

46:47
Logan
He could have meant the one with the dogs. You seem like a guy who likes dogs. Could have been anything.

46:54
Jmike
Because I was like. Because you come from, like, oh, well, Talos and Judy have, like, this whole, like, okay, happy ending thing. Thing. And all of a sudden, like, the next thing is Stars and Bars. And I was like, word. And I was like, okay, cool.

47:09
Logan
It's.

47:09
Jmike
It's. It's. It's a fun concept, I will tell you that. Because I. I understand what they were trying to do. I was like, you just chose, like, the weirdest way of telling this story.

47:19
Case
I. I really don't think that the story could have been told by an American. Like. Like, I don't think an American would have felt that they could tell the story, like, full stop. Like, even the most culturally sensitive one.

47:30
Logan
I don't know that you should tell it. I'm like. I said, I keep going back and forth. For one thing, Wild Bill Hickok fought for the Union.

47:37
Jmike
Yes.

47:38
Logan
There is something really gross to me about pulling a real guy out and being like, actually, even though he fought on the right side of this war despite, you know, being from a border state, so he kind of got to pick. So he fought for the Union, but then he's going to go back in time because he's got a crush. You know, it's something that's very weird to me about. About the fact that he was a real dude with, like, emotions and values and.

48:05
Jmike
Which is weird about that character in this story. In this iteration of the story, because, like, I forget the other heroine's name where she was like, yeah, we're just like, it's not really him. It's like iterations of him through time that help us fight things. I was like, wait a second. So he's been dead this entire time?

48:23
Case
Well, but he has been dead this entire time. Like, he's a character from the 19th century. Like, he.

48:28
Jmike
Yeah, like, they're like. They're like kind of like echoes of him, basically.

48:31
Case
Well, no, it's just that versions of him from different points in his life are still going to be active participants in the League of Infinity. But, like, at some point in history, he dies. And this happens to be like, that.

48:42
Jmike
Part, too, because they're like, yeah, he dies with his back turned to the doors in the saloon. That's something he never did. And you're like, well, how does that happen? And they're like, oh, we get it now. We're the ones that kill him.

48:53
Case
Here's the other thing. That's wild. Wild Bill Hickok's death is actually an infamous thing. Like the whole him being shot with his back to the door while he's holding aces and eights as poker hands. Yeah, exactly. Like, that's an infamous part of, like, poker lore. So, like, the fact that Wild Bill Hickok has been a member of this team of superheroes from characters pulled from throughout time. It's always been like a sort of Damocles, that he was going to die at some point, infamously. And so the fact that they incorporate that into a story is fascinating to me because this is how I discovered the character. Like, I. I didn't know who he was until I read this issue because I was a. A dumb teenager. And then I found out, like, oh, no shit. This was actually a real story.

49:34
Logan
Oh, man. See, my. The way my dad is, I. I had these. Wild Bill Hickok, Wyatt Earp, Blackjack Ketchum, Billy the Kid, Bass Reeves. Like, these were guys that were around me as much as the superheroes were. Like, I was very much plugged into these characters. That's just my dad's thing, you know, like, from the jump. I don't. I don't know, though. The. The question of, like, an American probably wouldn't have pulled this off. I don't know. I think maybe in this instance, the American's right. I think there's some.

50:10
Case
I didn't say. I didn't say pull off. I didn't would have written this.

50:13
Logan
Oh, yeah, no, I. Yeah, I don't. I think it's one of those things where I don't. I think. I think that might be my disconnect with this is. I think that this is. This is somebody from across the pond writing about something very delicate, very indelicately. And there's something weird just as much as when we do it, you know, like, when we write about another country and. And turn all the Europeans into mustache twirling, you know, Bond villains. I. I think that there's some of that going back the other way. Although that. That very well may just be the fact that I'm from Georgia, like, and have. You know, this is an especially soft term, Tinder spot for me.

50:51
Case
I think. No, I think you're right to say that it's not handled very delicately. Yeah. So, like, for the readers, if they haven't actually read this issue, everything gets turned into as if it's like, Plantation era South. Even though, like, he's supposed to be in sort of like a New York analog or Newark analog, if we're going off of the. The DC lore of Metropolis being in Delaware. Yep.

51:19
Jmike
Yeah.

51:20
Logan
Anyway.

51:20
Jmike
So that still doesn't make sense to me. What?

51:23
Case
Anyway, no, it actually makes perfect sense. It's. If Delaware was like. Delaware is like a tax haven because it is super low tax rates on just about everything. And so there's all these businesses that have headquarters in Wilmington and Newark, Delaware, which are like the northern cities of the state. And they.

51:42
Logan
The.

51:42
Case
The hypothesis that I have is that Metropolis is as if they actually were forced to have, like, actual businesses there and not just, like, an office.

51:52
Jmike
Okay. I still, like, every time I see Metropolis, automatically think New York.

51:56
Case
Well, yeah, and Omegapolis is like that here, but here it's been turned into, like, Plantation era Southern scenario with, like, the. The main superhero being the Klansman, which actually is a weird detail because the clan wouldn't exist if the south had won.

52:11
Logan
That's a good point. I hadn't even thought of that. Why would they be.

52:17
Case
They also mentioned that there is a villain called the Carpetbagger, which is like, of course, like, just fun history references, but, like, also wouldn't exist if the south had run.

52:26
Logan
Yeah.

52:26
Case
Kind of thing.

52:28
Logan
Yeah. Sidebar. On the last thing, at some point, one of us should do an episode on where we think D.C. cities are, since James Gunn is apparently going to start giving us answers. Because I have very strong opinions about Gotham being in South Carolina. Just putting that out in the ether before it leaves my head.

52:46
Case
Well, Metropolis being in Delaware was An already established thing for DC lore.

52:51
Logan
Really? I didn't know that.

52:52
Case
Yeah, that was the thing, like, in those, like, those, like, guides to, like, the geography of D.C. that they've. They've put out over the years. Like, Delaware has been where Metropolis has been located, and I believe they put New Jersey as the location for Gotham.

53:06
Jmike
Yeah, well, that makes sense.

53:08
Logan
Unfortunately, they have a New Jersey there. Like, you could put it in South Carolina and it'd be new. We'll do that. That's another episode. Anyway.

53:17
Case
Anyway. Yeah, anyway. So supreme, having woken up to this. This whole situation, I'm really glossing over some of the, like, the. The references they make in here, because as we established, like, it's. It's not delicate, and I'm. I'm not the person to really, like, weigh in too much on some of this stuff, but he goes to the. The Tower of the League of Infinity, and it's all broken up. And that, I think, is like, a very cool representation of their. Their time traveling and. And how it's affected by the. The effect of Wild Bill Hickok.

53:49
Case
So it's established that Wild Bill, who in the original timeline didn't die by playing poker, eventually went nuts because of a crush and basically tried to have a midlife crisis where he tried to, like, win this girl's heart by winning the Civil War for the south by way of stealing the plans for the atomic bomb and bringing them to the Confederacy. I think it's clever how they establish how it works through a telegraph line and it's brought in by a wagon. I think those are cool details there. And the artwork for this issue is great. Chris Sprouse definitely doing, like, a great job on everything. And the League of Infinity, it's. It's nice having the different opinions of characters from different timelines. Like, witch Winch saying, like, no, we should cite it. Which winch.

54:40
Case
Yeah, but which went saying, like, we just got to kill the motherfucker.

54:44
Logan
Yeah, well, yeah, everyone's kind of, like.

54:46
Case
Staring at her, and everyone agrees. Except for supreme and Future Woman.

54:51
Logan
Yeah, Well, I mean, you do, though. I don't. Call me, you know, again, call me a Triangle era guy, but some. But sometimes you got to kill a. Like. And in the end, and in the situation where somebody is nuking Washington D.C. on behalf of the Klan. Yeah, that's a Kill a o' Clock occasion, certainly.

55:15
Case
So they go back in time and they, like. They do this, like, pageantry where Future Woman, like, is a. Distracts Wild Bill and they. And then Achilles shoots him. And then they come back and timelines have been restored and everything is good. And the issue ends with the mirror villains finding what in the televillain's words, is something that looks very much like a television.

55:38
Logan
Yeah, it's Billy Friday's laptop, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

55:42
Case
And then the next issue is the last issue of the original run of Supreme. This is the escape of the mirror villains. So the televillain, who is a character who's established, is able to go inside TV signals to the point where he can go into actual shows and interact with the characters of a TV show. Like not like the people, the actors filming it, like they established like he can go and alter the content of a TV show by way of traveling into it. You know, pure Silver Age, like kind of super villain kind of concept.

56:16
Logan
I loved about these bad guys that they were so Silver Age without being there. There aren't really any, but one character that you can be like, this is a pastiche of them. But they are so Silver Age DC in their gimmicks and their motivations and everything. I, I thought this is maybe my favorite of the character adaptations that Moore does in the whole thing because you're getting the vibe of the nostalgia that he's going for, but you're getting something really new with them too.

56:48
Case
Yeah, like they're all very cool and like we said, aside from this, the shadow supreme being like a direct nod to the negative Superman, they all are clever characters without necessarily being like one to one knockoffs of anything.

57:01
Logan
I mean, you can make arguments like Optilux is probably Brainiac.

57:05
Case
Well, Optilux is definitely Brainiac, but even.

57:08
Logan
Then his motivations are so different from. He's got this very like cult leadery more than gathering information. He is this very like cult leader attention economy kind of thing going on with why he's taking people. And then Corgo, you know, Corgo's probably Mongol. That one's pretty close. Yeah, but he really could be any of the space tyrant villains, you know, it could just as easily be the guys from the Muhammad Ali crossover or, or anything like that, you know?

57:37
Case
Yeah, we do get a little bit of the continuity that's being set up here. Which is Sentinel, which is a character who was a member of Youngblood but was Reveale traitor in the Judgment Day miniseries that we talked about earlier. He breaks out of the jail here when the Youngblood book that spun out of Judgment Day launches. He is a villain that encounters them I believe in issue two. So just. Just as, like, again, there's a lot of continuity being established between the supreme book and, like, everything else that. That Moore was doing in the awesome universe at the time. But then all the villains just, like, run rampant. They. They destroy all the suprematons. They. They go nuts on. On that. And then the television, the televillain kills Monica and Rachel from Friends.

58:21
Logan
Yeah. Which that. Is that dated? Yes. Did I cackle? Yes.

58:28
Case
Yeah. I mean, talk about, like, a specific pop culture reference right there. But yeah, this is what I mean when I say that the televillain is able to go into shows and affected because Courteney Cox, like, confirms that she's not actually affected by it. Even though, like, in the. The episode that was airing, like, she gets murdered on tv.

58:46
Logan
Oh, it's. It's very, very Silver Age DC Auto Bender, Gardner Fox. Don't think about it too hard. Dork kind of superpower function.

58:58
Case
Like, yeah, we get a quick flash of Professor Knight and Twilight's new outfit that will be featured a bunch more in the aforementioned Youngblood book that spun out of Judgment Day.

59:08
Jmike
Okay, so that's what that is who that is.

59:11
Case
She's the Robin analog.

59:12
Jmike
Okay.

59:13
Case
And Professor Knight is the Batman analog. But yeah. So the villains all break out. We get some very cool shots of the negative. Or I was about to say the negative Superman. The shadow supreme looking just menacing as hell, especially when he, like, confronts Suprema and then gets into a fight directly with Supreme. Again, setting up really good stakes for. For fights with Supreme. Like, the. The characters consistently are. You know, like, they. The. The actual confrontations that are being put out there. They're on the scale that supreme actually is challenged, which is impressive considering that he's so powerful.

59:49
Logan
Well, and you have, you know, if there's one thing that Alan Moore does maybe better than any author ever, is one page horrifying villain. Mike drops. And when Suprema comes around the corner and Shadow supreme is. I think he says, hello there. I killed your dog, by the way. Like, that is such an Alan Moore moment.

01:00:11
Case
Yes. With just wonderful art by Chris Sprouse. Like, just gotta shout out that.

01:00:15
Logan
Chris. Chris Sprouse and Rick Veach, I think are. And not to take anything away from Moore. I love. I love the stories in this, but I think they're the real MVPs of this series. Like, their work on this is so gorgeous.

01:00:29
Case
For real. And it becomes such a shame when because of. I've heard that Rob Liefeld did not treat his artist very well, which is not to be surprised from what we've heard about Rob Liefeld. And so it makes sense that Sprouse does not finish the tenure of the book. But it's a shame because his art.

01:00:47
Logan
Was so good and perfect for the series.

01:00:50
Case
Yeah. And Rick Veach doing the flashbacks is also just so good.

01:00:54
Logan
Chris Prowse has such a Al Plastino, Wayne boring look, Superman look to all of his work, really. But. But especially in this, that just really like, it perfectly captures that vibe while also kind of elevating the material. You know, it doesn't look old, but it looks classic.

01:01:16
Case
Yeah. And like his body work is. Is. It's. It's exaggerated, but it's not so exaggerated the way that, like, a lot of, like 90s comics, like, made the superheroes look like he. Like, there's like a realism to the anatomy that is. Is kind of Dave Gibbons esque.

01:01:32
Logan
Yes. Yeah, I can see that.

01:01:34
Case
But so we get a flashback with. With that. Rick Veach does that shows the origins of the. The. The hell of Mirrors, which is set up to be actually like, literally the mirror from like Alice in the Looking Glass.

01:01:46
Logan
Yeah.

01:01:47
Case
Which is kind of a funny detail. So. But then we cut back to supreme fighting with Shadow supreme. And supreme goes to like, round up the other villains. And that's where we get the. The. The cliffhanger for this one, which is the reveal of Optilux.

01:02:00
Logan
Great, great design on that villain. I love his look too.

01:02:03
Case
Oh, yeah. Like, I mean, so like I said, he is very one to one with Brainiac. And yes, he's got differences to him, but like, he, you know, he. And rather than miniaturizing everyone, he turns them into sentient bits of light in a prism world. And it's just such a cool design. Like the mirrors floating around him like he looks like Brainiac, but, like, only. Only if you squint, you know?

01:02:26
Logan
Yeah, I don't. I don't think you would know. I think he looks like Brainiac to the degree that I don't think most people would know unless somebody said it first. And then it kind of like.

01:02:36
Jmike
Right.

01:02:36
Case
But then the next issue picks up and the next issue is actually the first issue of Supreme. The Return, the relaunch of the series that would. That would happen. And this is where it gets kind of weird because it opens with President Bill Clinton.

01:02:49
Logan
Yeah, this. This blew me away. Let me say this is actually the first issue of Supreme I ever read. I got this issue out of A three for a dollar box at my local comic shop and just picked it up because it. Because it looked like Superman. And that led to me. That's the reason I bought the trade. And this is my favorite issue in the whole thing. I mean, I think. I think it's a blast.

01:03:11
Case
And yes, I think it's a lot of energy, and it's a beautiful issue.

01:03:15
Logan
Yeah. Yeah. And it has some great character moments. And unfortunately, there was an evil tree.

01:03:21
Case
In the Garden of Eden.

01:03:22
Logan
And there's a weird running joke with the Clintons in this otherwise great comment. Like, such is life. Yeah.

01:03:33
Case
Certainly the reputation that was going on for Hillary Clinton at the time pervades the. The actual content of the book.

01:03:40
Logan
Yeah. And I look, she's currently very much cheering on the Israel stuff, so I don't. I'm not in any way defending Hillary Clinton's honor here, but it's sort of the same thing as the Hickok thing of, like, hey, man, these are real people. Maybe, you know, maybe this could have been Hill and Billory. You know, it didn't have to literally be them.

01:04:03
Case
Yeah, it's literally Bill Clinton gets beaten up. I love that, like, Corgo, who initially was the space Bully in the 60s before he became the space tyrant, that he, like, needles Bill Clinton to eventually, like, punch him and engage with him in, like, a official duel so that he can become the. The President of the United States.

01:04:21
Logan
Yeah. And let, you know, let it be.

01:04:24
Case
Shown on the record.

01:04:25
Logan
I'm not gonna cry.

01:04:28
Case
But then it cuts back to the Shadow Supreme. Supreme fight. And that is a really cool fight with, like, some great. Just great action sequences that, you know, could have very well been, like, an Omni man invincible level fight. There's certainly a shot where they, like, fly right past a train where you're like, oh, that. That could have gone poorly.

01:04:46
Logan
Oh, yeah. I love the panel where he sticks Shadow supreme in the center of the earth's gravity.

01:04:52
Jmike
Yeah.

01:04:52
Logan
That is so well drawn and cool.

01:04:55
Case
Yeah. And this issue, I want to, like, call out, like, the. The inking or not. Just thinking the coloring that's going on here. Like, Shadow supreme is such a cool effect. Like the gradient where, like, when he bleeds ultimately where, like, red comes off of him eventually, but, like, close to his body is like, this, like, seeping darkness affixed to it. But very, like, very cool work that they're doing with the character.

01:05:16
Logan
Yeah, absolutely.

01:05:18
Case
We get the slaver ant, who is a. A fun villain concept. Well, this, like, ant themed villain who. Who abducts babies And. And tries to convince them to. Well, yeah, and she has this, like, mind control, like, secretion that she puts on the parents so that they, like, fight each other rather than trying to fight her. They think they're attacking this, the slavery aunt, but they're actually attacking each other.

01:05:42
Logan
Doesn't Erik Larson go on to do, like, a lot more with this character?

01:05:46
Case
I'm not sure if this character specifically shows up in anything Savage Dragon, but it certainly looks like characters that show up in Savage Dragon. I just can't remember for sure if it's the same one.

01:05:58
Logan
Savage Dragon is such a blind spot for me because I'm always like, I need to read Savage Dragon. But it's so. There's so much.

01:06:06
Case
It's like, it's such a huge world too. Like, there's so many characters. Like, that's why I'm like, I can't say for sure that he didn't, but I like, I don't think he used this character. But like, it's definitely like characters that are in Savage Dragon, but I can't say for sure that he didn't because there is some back and forth. Savage Dragon is used in like, Judgment Day, for example. Anyway, so we. We cut back to the. The. The duel with Suprema and Optilix, and it's kind of a fun way of defeating her by sending him back to Amoleth, the Prism world. And at this point they round up the Televillain, who gets beaten up by a crowd because he's the one who, who killed Monica and Rachel on Friends.

01:06:42
Jmike
I love it.

01:06:42
Case
And then we get the return of the Shadow supreme and also the reveal that Radar did not, in fact die. The Shadow supreme had lied about it using a Suprematon dog robot, which. I have one question, which is that there was clearly blood.

01:06:53
Jmike
Yeah.

01:06:54
Case
In the shot.

01:06:55
Jmike
Well, okay, I wasn't on the first.

01:06:56
Logan
Okay. They cover that actually in Auto Bender, Superboy, they have to have blood and human fluids in them in case somebody killed, like, injures one. It has to be a perfect double for Superman. There's a. I cannot remember what issue, but there's an issue where a suprematon is in an accident. So people think that teenage Clark Kent, not a suprematon, a Superboy robot, is in an accident. So people think that teenage Clark Kent has died and Superboy is like, tearfully getting ready to go live in outer space because he doesn't have a secret identity anymore. And I can't remember for the life of me. How they get out of it. But, like, this is. This is a very. This is a. I think Alan Moore is pulling directly on, like, Silver Age Superman, constantly overdoing it with that.

01:07:46
Case
Yeah, I mean, it certainly makes sense in that regard, but here I want to call out Radar. The Hound supreme is really fucking cool.

01:07:54
Logan
This is my favorite moment in the whole. In the whole thing.

01:07:56
Case
This is so goddamn cool. This predates them treating crypto really, as a dollar dog because Krypto always had super intelligence. And so, like, they had weird rules for him. Like. Like, sometimes, like, they would treat him as a dog in some regards, but he was always super intelligent, and so he never was, like, very vicious because he is part of the Superman canon, and it was part of the world of, like, comics code and all that stuff. Like, they. They. He never had the. The instincts of a dog until after this. And I think that this is such a important rendition of a superdog that this is actually like, Mind the Ifanboy who constantly talk about how they thought crypto was a Dalmatian. It's only goddamn Radar. The Hound Supreme.

01:08:38
Logan
Yeah. Yeah. You know something, too. You know what? This the only other moment of crypto really being like that before this. Also written by Alan Moore because there are real shades of. Oh, yeah, Death of the Kryptonite man and Whatever Happened to the man of Tomorrow.

01:08:53
Case
Yeah, no, that's a fantastic call.

01:08:54
Logan
I think. I think that one of the accolades you can. One of the weirdest accolades you can definitely lay an Alan Moore's feet is a best crypto writer. Between Radar and this, I don't think it's one he would expect to get. But my. But my two favorite. And I count this as a crypto story pretty much, but this is my two favorite crypto moments really are. Are. And I think this is even better because I don't want crypto to die. You know, I think. I do think that other scene is awesome. But. But the. I want to read the line verbatim. It's my favorite moment in this whole thing.

01:09:27
Case
Yeah, yeah, please.

01:09:28
Logan
He says, I know you. I know your smell. You depend upon your knowledge that the master would never kill you. He is too civilized. He is too humane. But I am a dog. And then he bites his arm off. Right. It's perfect.

01:09:44
Case
And then chases him to Washington so that they can round up the criminals there as well. It is such a perfect moment with. With that, like, it's. Again, I'm calling out the. The art. This is where, like, we get the. The Shadow Supreme. Like really bleeding. And the. The D of him.

01:09:59
Logan
Yeah.

01:09:59
Case
Which is such a cool effect there. But. But the drawing of. Of Radar is terrifying. He's a. He's a scary superdog.

01:10:06
Logan
This. I had an idea. I'm gonna put this out in the ether and somebody's gonna steal it from me, but I'm not doing anything with it, so. So still don't. But you know, but like, I had an idea for a comic a few years ago where it's a Superman world and their Superman analog dies and then a pet therapist gets abducted by the government and they're like. And he, you know, black bag over his head and they take him to a facility and they're like. So now the most powerful defensive weapon that we have in the world was actually that guy's dog. And he's grieving and we need you to get him off his ass before Brainiac or Darkseid or whatever comes back, because that dog's the most powerful superhero in the world now.

01:10:55
Case
I freaking love that as a concept right there.

01:10:57
Logan
So you have this human pet, you know, pet therapist who has to work with this dog before. Before the new gods descend or whatever. Yeah, I've never. I've never gone much more than a couple of treatments with it, but. But that idea came from this issue when I read it the first time when I, like when I was in high school of like, God, it. I would rather honestly read a comic about radar to a certain extent. You know, that would be a great else world story. Yeah.

01:11:32
Case
Yeah. Like doing. Just doing that with crypto.

01:11:34
Jmike
Yeah.

01:11:35
Case
Would be amazing. But anyway, so they round up the slaver ant, Radar leads the shadow supreme to Voram, which we haven't really talked about. He's kind of a. I think he's actually a pretty one to one character, but I don't remember for sure. But if I remember correctly, there was like a lion shaped villain kind of like him, but like I said, I don't remember for sure. Anyway, they drop the slaver ant on the shadow supreme and Voram. So they get pissed off at each other and fight each other into unconsciousness. And that's when Corgo the space tyrant emerges. And J Mike, do you want to describe how he handles this situation?

01:12:08
Jmike
Yeah. So you pick up with him running basically out of the White House, whispering to supreme, save me. Or something like that. This chick is driving me crazy.

01:12:17
Logan
Right.

01:12:19
Case
He had claimed Hillary Clinton as his wife or as his prize for having taken over the country, but apparently she drove him insane. And so he gives up, basically, and just says, make it look good. And gets fake knocked out by Supreme.

01:12:36
Jmike
The entire fight, they're whispering to each other back and forth. He's like, oh, man. Really appreciate you doing me this. Silence. I'll be good. He's like, yeah, no problem. I got you. Yeah.

01:12:44
Logan
Which is the most devastating part of it. It's like, it's insulting enough stuff that Mongol the cruel would foil his whole plan to get away from Hillary Clinton. But the worst part is when supreme whispers, forget it. It's okay.

01:13:01
Case
Yeah, but you got to remember just how hated Hillary Clinton was in the 90s.

01:13:06
Logan
Yeah.

01:13:06
Case
Yeah. Anything we want to say about. About this little arc, the villain breakout that we haven't already covered?

01:13:12
Logan
I. Go ahead, jmar.

01:13:14
Jmike
I got nothing. Like, it's a fun little arc. This is my favorite part about this entire thing is what's his name Running out of the White House. My favorite part, almost, of this entire, like, book. He's just like, so, oh, get this chick away from me, please. I'll do anything.

01:13:33
Case
Yeah, it's a good idea. I mean, it's insensitive, but it's a good guy.

01:13:36
Logan
Oh, this is definitely, like, this is my favorite issue in the whole thing. And, like. And other ones are great. That's. Not to put the other ones down, but this is. This is a damn near perfect comic to me. It's fun, it's serious, it's scary, it's uplifting. It's. You know, I laughed, I cried. It moved me, Bob. Like, it's great.

01:13:57
Jmike
I did have a question about. Was it the ant? What's her name?

01:14:00
Case
Aunt Lady Slaver Ant.

01:14:01
Jmike
Flavor Ant. Is she not control her pheromones or whatever or. Because she accidentally touches them and then releases the pheromones onto, like. I forgot his name.

01:14:11
Case
Vorium and Shadow Supreme. Yeah, it seemed. Well, she says, no, don't touch me. Like, she yells at. So it. It seems that she is not able to prevent them from secreting if she actually makes physical contact.

01:14:22
Jmike
Okay, cool. Because I was like. Because she was just like, touch, like, walking past people, like, oh, can you get some? You get some, too. You all get some. While she's kidnapping the baby babies. So I was like, maybe it's just involuntary for her. I don't know.

01:14:34
Logan
Yeah, I don't think I mentioned it before, but also the part where she's forcing the children to chew up newspaper for the nest is so dark and hilarious.

01:14:44
Case
Like, yeah, Also a good moment where the Supremes, like, track her down using their scent. Supreme which is a fun superpower that, you know, makes sense, but like, they. They never really talk about with like, Superman.

01:14:59
Logan
Yeah. Yeah.

01:14:59
Case
So moving on to the next issue. This is the inverse of the first issue of the Alan Moore run. This is the Darius Dax going to his version of the Supremacy, and it's pretty much beat for beat. Like.

01:15:12
Logan
We.

01:15:12
Case
The first page is just a quick recap of like, from Darius Dax's perspective. Like the events of the supreme, the story of the year where he fuses first as Magno with the supremium rock and then turns into the supremium man, falls backwards through time and then merges with more supreme, falls backwards through time and turns into the meteor that, you know, initially crash landed and gave supreme his powers in the first place. But then it picks up with him being accosted, like, straight up being mugged by the. The equivalent super. The equivalent Dariuses or the equivalent Daxes, I should say, to the Supremes that show up in the first place to bring out supreme to the Supremacy, we get the.

01:15:54
Case
We get the original Darius Dax, we get the Blaxploitation Darius Dax, and we get the weird future Darius Dax, and then we get the. The funny animal Darius Dax.

01:16:05
Logan
Yeah. Darius Duck is one of my favorite parts of this whole thing.

01:16:08
Case
Yes. The Drake of Darkness, the Mallet of Malevolence.

01:16:17
Jmike
Darkwing Duck. There we go. I said it.

01:16:19
Logan
Yay. But.

01:16:21
Case
But yeah, and then we go to, you know, they go to their like the great palace where like the 60s Dax is. Is the supreme character who is as designed like the 60s Lex Luthor is in a prison jumpsuit just because that is the. The style of the character. So we. We set up this world and. And sort of recap basically the. The Supremacy rules, but from the perspective of the Daxes. And it's like I said, it's just an inversion of that story. Like everything about it is beat for beat. The same right down to like him being introduced to like the giant one. You know, like, it's all. It's. It's all identical to supreme. 42, the first issue, or 41, I believe the. The first issue of the arc. But Logan, you wouldn't know that because you haven't read that issue.

01:17:04
Logan
No, yeah, that. That was news to me. Although I will say I. I did feel like. Not to say I dislike it, but this did feel like the most phoned in of the issues to me. Me like it very much felt and. And finding out that it's basically a retread of what they did before. But It. It just seems like a tour of. Of the same. Like, he does these same jokes again with Diane Dane, you know, like, it's always the same eras.

01:17:32
Case
Yeah.

01:17:33
Logan
And, you know, it's a good joke. It's a great joke, even. But. But, like, this was the one where, like, I. I had got a lot of mileage out of this up until the part where you meet the duck. And then after that, it kind of slowed down. I was like, all right, I get it. There's a lot. A lot of that guy.

01:17:50
Case
Yeah. It's not my favorite issue. And there's one thing that really doesn't age well, which is evil 80s transvestite Darius Dax.

01:17:58
Jmike
Oh, yeah.

01:17:59
Logan
Although I. I will give that a pass only because I really feel like that is more at his most. I feel like who he's really making fun of. There's is. Is not trans people. It's Alan Moore, you know, like.

01:18:14
Case
Yes, I. I agree with. With you there. I don't think that he's. I. I don't think he's being transphobic in that moment. I think that, again, he's making fun of. Because it's supposed to be making fun of, like, grim 80s, like, stuff. So, like you said, he's making fun of himself.

01:18:29
Logan
Although I actually the. The joker. The transvestite jokers from Arkham Asylum. Right. So I might be given more. Too much credit. This might be another Morrison shot, now that I think about it.

01:18:43
Case
I mean, it might be. It certainly might be.

01:18:46
Logan
Or.

01:18:47
Case
Or we. If you prefer, just. It's a shot at, like, the. The grim 80s, like, British Invasion. Anyway, sure, it. It might be that. That dark of one or like, that specific of one, but, like, I. I don't think it's a necessary jab. I do think that the art's not that great in this issue.

01:19:02
Logan
I. I hate to say that, because it's Jim Starlin, and. And I really think, looking at it, I think the pencils are there. I think the anchor let him down. I think it is inked so flat that you're not getting a lot of that. You know, like, if you look on the. On the 80s Supreme's face and the wrinkles that you see in the shirt, like, I think there's details there that could. That with a different ink job, really could pop, but everything is just flat, static, you know?

01:19:33
Case
Yeah. I do want to call out what is very clearly reused art from Chris Sprouse on the last two pages of the issue, where, if you look at it's exactly. They're Taking this, the penciling from the saz, the Sprite supreme issue, and just reusing it. Reusing it with different coloration.

01:19:51
Logan
I owe an apology. I just looked up. Do you know who inked this issue of Jim Starlin's art? Who? Jim Starlin.

01:19:58
Case
Oh.

01:20:00
Logan
Oh, sorry, Jim. I tried to stick up for you, but.

01:20:07
Case
I mean, I think it's, like, overly dark and, like, I think there's, like, a lot of, like, too much coloring going on, so it's like. Or too much liberal use of, like, this. This new nifty, like, handy dandy Photoshop effect because it's 1997 and people are like, oh, my God, gradients.

01:20:24
Logan
Yeah.

01:20:25
Case
I think this is the first issue where I noticed where, like, the. The text boxes at some points were, like, a little hard to read because of some of the color.

01:20:32
Logan
The trick. I have heard people say. And you can tell me this is true, Case, because you're one of the few people I know who has the original issues in the trade. I have heard that these trades are notoriously very poorly printed.

01:20:45
Case
Yes, they are. It's hard for me to say how bad because I haven't, like, dug up the issues in a while, but these are not good quality trades.

01:20:53
Logan
Yeah, well. And I can tell, like, in mine, there are pages where, like, the top. If there's a text bubble too close to the top of the page, it's cut a couple places. So, like I said, that kind of thing really makes me wonder what else, you know, what else was not the fault of the artists as much as it was the fault of the trade company.

01:21:15
Case
Yeah, well, but like I said, this is clearly awesome, is having its own financial issues at this point. Chris Sprouse, they've lost, but they. They're using. They're. They're using his assets on those last two pages. It's really weird. Like, if you look at the. The SaaS issue and you look at this, like, there. There are literal. They're just taking out his art and, like, recoloring it to, like, fit the scene here. It's the most egregious is the shot on the last page where Supreme's, like, running out. Like, that's the shot where he's, like, holding the. The comic book and looking at it as he's, like, rushing off to change.

01:21:47
Jmike
Yeah.

01:21:50
Logan
Yeah, it. Well, and, you know, awesome. You know, we talked about the Fighting American and Agent America and. And Liefeld had the whole team that was basically just the Avengers and was reusing, you know, his own art, but art that he didn't have the legal rights to. Right. Anymore and painting over it. So there was. There was a lot of sketchy going on with this company at this time.

01:22:12
Case
Yep, a lot of sketchy going on with Liefeld. What a shock.

01:22:15
Jmike
Yeah.

01:22:16
Logan
I'm trying not to go in too hard on that too much because this is a pretty good opportunity. Solai, if you're listening, I apologize again for. For having a little blow up in the Discord this week. Having a rough week. I shouldn't have taken it out on you. But I'm trying not to go in on Liefeld too hard because of that. But. Yeah, yeah.

01:22:34
Case
Like, not. Not trying to pick a wound there. But then the next story is a pretty fun one. This is the Three Worlds of Diana Dane, where we get a tour of cool shit that's in the Supreme Supremacy from the perspective of Diana Dane, Supreme's new girlfriend and also a writer on the. The Omni man comic book. So quote, unquote. This is for her to, like, get inspiration for the book.

01:22:57
Logan
This is my least favorite art, and I like the premise of this. I love the Nightwing and flamebird callback that's happening in this. This issue, though, is hard to look at in places in, like.

01:23:14
Case
Because the artist, like, changes it at a few points.

01:23:16
Logan
Like.

01:23:16
Case
Like the. The as a whole or, like, is any particular section that's, like, really the rough spot for you?

01:23:22
Logan
It's the doctor Dark and Duskwing part, really.

01:23:25
Case
Oh, really?

01:23:26
Logan
I. When it gets to the. I think. I think it's actually Rick Veitch, when you get to the fighting American stuff.

01:23:33
Case
That looks like it.

01:23:34
Logan
Yeah, that. And that's a lot better to me. And then Eric Larson comes in a little bit. Eric Larson is very competent. But just specifically this. This first part where they. Where they are in the Candor analog. There are some of these parts where I. I have trouble figuring out if I'm looking at supreme or the other Candorian or, you know, and people's pupils just disappear and. Which I think is part of the effect of the thing, except that it's happening before they go in, you know, on some of these.

01:24:09
Case
Yeah.

01:24:09
Logan
So, like, that. That's probably my. This. This was the low point in the art for me. Well, no, that's not true. In the very last issue, Rob Liefeld does two pages, and then I guess there's those other two pages that you just mentioned that were stolen. So that's not great either, but. Yeah, but this just doesn't really work for me.

01:24:31
Case
Yeah, I think the. The. The bummer of the Prism World stuff is that they weren't like, they. They so overdo their like, computer graphics effects in like, other. Other issues of this book. And this is the one section where they really should have used more than they actually got.

01:24:44
Jmike
Yeah.

01:24:44
Case
Like it like the way that they did the effects for Optilix where like, he had this like, very cool, like, glowing effect coming off of his mirrors.

01:24:50
Logan
Yes.

01:24:51
Case
Like, if they had something that looked like that here, I would probably be more forgiving of pencils that are a little more amateurish if we want to.

01:25:00
Logan
Yeah.

01:25:02
Case
Go into that.

01:25:02
Logan
But who did this one? Let me look and see. See if they redeem themselves or disappeared.

01:25:07
Case
I mean, I don't think it's like particularly like, it doesn't stand out as being like that bad to me. But like, I. I see what you're. Where you're coming from with it.

01:25:15
Logan
I have good news. It's Matt Smith, so. Oh. This depressed him so bad that he became Doctor who and did wonderful after that. Good for you, Matt. You were the best part of Morbius.

01:25:33
Case
I do like that we get a adventure in the world of Amoleth, the prison world, and that we get the Nightwing and Flamebird callback in the form of Dr. Dark and Duskwing. Yeah, I thought that was a. Yeah, it's a fun concept right there. I really love it. Like, I always love the detail of Nightwing and Flameburg being the. The Superman and Jimmy Olsen secret identities from. From Candor. I. I think it's a lot of fun. Like, does the adventure do much? No, because, like, they just go in there and like, oh, hey, they're bandits. Oh, cool, we'll go get them. And they immediately do. And it's like not. Not too hard. But it's part of the fun romp that we get with Diana Dane going to these different eras or these different, like, locations within these. The Citadel Supreme.

01:26:18
Case
But then they go into the future because he has just access to the. The time well of the League of Infinity and they go to this like, future time period where there is a version of the Fighting American. Fighting American 4 and also a descendant of Supreme.

01:26:33
Logan
Yeah, it's Supreme X. Yeah. Also, I. I hate, I. I hate to say it, but I like every supreme variants costume better than Supremes.

01:26:47
Case
Really? I like the supreme costume a ton. I'm so surprised.

01:26:52
Logan
I really love the golden belts and stuff that Supreme Ax has and the longer hair. Like, I. I think that Pops.

01:26:59
Case
I want to call out the fact that they were fighting Fesbola terrorists, which is Just like, hey, there's a lot going on in this section. The language that they use for all the characters is it takes a lot of deciphering. It's supposed to be like future jargon. So like instead of saying hello, they say give me skin. Which is supposed to be like give me some skin.

01:27:21
Logan
Yeah, it seemed like a great reference to the legion's grief and frack and you know, all that the. Their cuss word stand ins that they used to use.

01:27:33
Case
Yeah. But then they encounter Baxter Front newest villain of the era, and Diana Dane shows off that she's competent by kicking him in both sets of balls.

01:27:42
Logan
This is, and this is so Jack Kirby. Like, I don't know how much you guys have watched Thunder the Barbarian.

01:27:48
Case
Oh, a ton.

01:27:49
Logan
This is, this is basically the same gimmick that Thunder's Skeletor has. Jack Kirby did the character designs for that show. Yeah, well, all but Alex Toth did Thunder, Ariel and Ookla, but Kirby did everything else, which is if you've never seen. If you like he man type stuff and you've never seen Thunder the Barbarian, I highly recommend that you sort of seek it out if you're listening to this.

01:28:21
Case
Yeah, I will second that. It's a very fun series. But anyway, so supreme opines that it seems that whether you move forward or backwards in time, you somehow find out the business of the. The modern day. And so this is all leading into Diana Day and sort of coming to the conclusion that supreme is actually like taking her on a date as opposed to like showing her around for like professional curiosity. And the. This is. Is really emphasized when they go to the Supremacy as the next location where Diana is introduced to all these other Diana Danes who are, you know, like Logan, as you pointed out, they use the same periods because this is a callback specifically to the first issue of the Alan Moore run of Supreme. Yeah, we. So they come to.

01:29:03
Case
She comes to understand, oh, Diana Dane typically is a girlfriend of supreme in all these different realities. And so she realizes that and upon leaving the Supremacy, she like confronts him about it.

01:29:17
Logan
You know, something that I had never thought of until just now. This issue is so similar to the birthday date issue of All Star.

01:29:28
Jmike
Yep.

01:29:29
Logan
Yeah, like really close. And that's kind of fascinating reading. There's no way Grant Morrison didn't read this. Not a chance.

01:29:41
Case
I, I think that makes a ton of sense. And I have often seen All Star as being a A with the serial numbers like put back on version of Supreme.

01:29:50
Logan
Yeah. I can see that.

01:29:52
Case
But yeah. So this sets up that Diana like confronts supreme about like, hey, do you like me? And he's like, yeah. And they. They kiss. And Radar happens to be witnessing this. And this sets up like future trouble down the road.

01:30:04
Logan
You know, something that I do really like about this issue and Diana Dane in general is we talked about Judy Jordan is so close to Lana Lang. She's really not that Lois Laney, you know, other than being a professional who also types as part of their living. Like, she's not. She doesn't have that gruffness or that edge that Lois has a lot of time. She doesn't have that like danger seeking thing. You know, she's much more laid back and chill than Lois is in most iterations. And I. And that was something that was really refreshing about the end of this issue is like, I feel like in a lot of versions of Lois Lane or other characters like it, this ending would have led to tension that would have taken three issues to get resolved before they fell in love or whatever.

01:30:55
Logan
And Diana Dane just sort of understands this for the fumbly gesture that it is and, you know, embraces it. I thought that was really refreshing.

01:31:05
Case
Yeah, I mean, like, this is certainly a story that's. That's been speedrun so that, like, that might kind of play a part into in that. But yeah, she's. She's a very unique Lois Lane analog in a whole bunch of ways. She kind of reminds me of Karen Page. Early era Karen Page. And maybe it's just like the fact that she's a blonde.

01:31:22
Logan
Yeah, I can definitely see that. Especially with the eight. With what, the 80s Diana Dane. It's like. Yes. Yeah, there's some real Karen Page going on there too. Yeah.

01:31:33
Case
I thought that was a direct Karen Page reference right there.

01:31:36
Logan
Certain. That's what that was supposed to be. Especially with all the pill bottles around. Her hands are shaking and stuff.

01:31:43
Case
But before we move on to the next issue, anything that we want to address from. From the story, like, J. Mike, you've been kind of quiet about the.

01:31:49
Jmike
This also reminded me of the League of Lois's episode from my Avengers of Superman. Yeah, I was like, oh, this is. I can totally see that.

01:31:59
Logan
Did you guys notice they forgot to draw the spots on radar on the last page of this?

01:32:04
Jmike
Yes.

01:32:05
Case
Yep.

01:32:06
Jmike
Also, whose body is that?

01:32:08
Case
I think that's supposed to be Judy Jordan.

01:32:11
Logan
Yeah.

01:32:11
Case
Because I like the old body of Judy Jordan.

01:32:15
Jmike
You know, it was like, it's kind of awkward for them to be making out in front of her body. But, you know, supreme is very dense.

01:32:21
Logan
Yeah, well, and I think I. I actually. I think Moore did that on purpose. I think the idea of, like, I think the idea that they are kissing over the corpse of Judy Jordan is. Is another of Moore's critiques of Superman's indecision when it comes to that love triangle, which, of course, you know, whatever happened to the man of Tomorrow, is. Is riddled with his critiques of Superman's indecision.

01:32:48
Case
Yeah.

01:32:48
Logan
And it's one of the best part. You know, I. I think Lana Lange's issue ending in that is brutal, but it's. But it's very beautiful in its own way, too, of her not being able to accept. Of her finally learning that Superman's never going to love her. And this seems like a very similar thing of, like, Morris, once again, highlighting how kind of callous the classic Superman was with these women's feelings.

01:33:15
Case
Yeah. I think that is a perfect summation of what that. That panel must look like. Because if you've ever seen an Alan Moore script, like, it is so goddamn dense. Like, he covers every detail. Like, there's no. No part of the camera angle that is un. Like undocumented in that.

01:33:32
Logan
Yeah, but I guess he forgot to mention that Radar is a Dalmatian, and he probably kicked himself for that for years to come.

01:33:39
Case
Right.

01:33:41
Logan
It's like, I just thought he'd know at this point. This dog has spots.

01:33:49
Case
Yep. J. Mike, any. Any thoughts on. On your part from the. The. The various worlds of Diana Dane?

01:33:55
Jmike
It's a fun story with a happy ending, except for the dog Spots, but a very happy ending.

01:34:04
Case
Yeah. So that then picks up in the next issue. First of all, the fact that Ethan is still. Still the secret identity for supreme and Diana does not know is, like, kind of up. Right, Right.

01:34:14
Logan
Yeah.

01:34:16
Case
I mean, it's figured out pretty shortly after this, but, like, the fact that she feels like he's ghosted her when it's like, wouldn't you just, like, reveal it? Like, as soon as you get like, we're like, yeah, we made out. And we're like. Like, we. I like you, like, I want. I want us to, like, continue being a thing. Like, again, Supreme. Very dense and not. And kind of callous.

01:34:34
Logan
That's unfortunately very Bronze Age, though, Of, like, there is a. If you go back to the. The 70s, Superman stuff in the early 80s. It's not obviously explicitly said, but it's pretty clear that Superman and Lois are sleeping together, waking up and having breakfast in the same apartment and stuff. Like that. And she doesn't know that it's Clark.

01:34:55
Case
Yeah.

01:34:56
Logan
And it's one of those, you know, there's some things about a character that are iconic and you always keep them. That's one that, to me, I don't ever want to see a version of Superman that crosses that threshold. With Lois as Superman, I don't mind if he does it as Clark and hasn't told her that he's Superman yet.

01:35:14
Case
Right. Yeah. Yes, I agree. And that was the problem I had with the death of Superman. Or no Superman.

01:35:21
Logan
Doomsday.

01:35:22
Case
Yeah, yeah. Like that one. Like, Lois and he are very clearly sleeping together and she does not know. And it's just like, what the fuck, man? Yeah.

01:35:30
Logan
And they do the same thing in Unbound and Superman Unbound as well. And it's. It. It's very skewed. Superman Unbound, I think it's even a little more fucked up because that's not like it's. That's a very close adaptation of a comic that's not in. They could have just been married in the movie when they lobbed it in anyway. And in that movie, they kind of act. And in that one end, in Doomsday 2, they kind of act like Lois is the problem. Like.

01:36:01
Case
Right. Yeah. It's weird.

01:36:02
Logan
Both of those movies kind of have Superman looking at the camera like women. Right? Hey, man, this is kind of like a crime. I don't. It's at least very gray. Much grayer than the spots on Radar in the last issue.

01:36:17
Case
Yes. So anyway, Carl comes in with his dog and it's like, something's wrong with my dog. It's like it's. She's obviously pregnant. Like, and at which point she gives birth and the dog has superpowers. And apparently there are lots of puppies all over with superpowers. And this is pretty obviously Radar's fault because how else are all these dogs going to be conceived at super speed in if not for Radar, who flies off with his tail between his legs as soon as he realizes that he's in serious trouble?

01:36:51
Logan
I love it. I love it so much. This is like, if I was ranking the issues, this is my number three. And it's just a hair behind the Jack Kirby issue.

01:37:00
Case
You.

01:37:01
Logan
But. But I. This is maybe the best Crypto comic.

01:37:07
Jmike
He slept with 378 other dogs that night.

01:37:13
Logan
Yeah.

01:37:13
Case
No, I love the. The line I want to read verbatim was, I hope your 378 dog sex spree was worth it. It was the most blissful 12 and a half seconds I've ever known, Master. Although I regret it now. Yeah. So he flies around at super speed, impregnates a bunch of dogs because he's.

01:37:30
Logan
He's in.

01:37:30
Case
He meet. He's sort of promoted or he gets into that vibe because of seeing supreme have that kind of dynamic with Diana. And he's like, yeah, no, I'm gonna. I'm gonna try to. I'm gonna try to. And so he does. And then it go. It's at super speed because he's a supreme being. And which is an interesting implication for anything that supreme might have if he has a relationship with Diana.

01:37:55
Logan
Yeah, yeah. I'm hoping that the difference is somewhere between human and dog intelligence, because otherwise, that poor lady.

01:38:04
Case
Yeah. But yeah, so he flies around and has sex with, as we said, 378 dogs. And they all give birth to puppies a day later. Yes, One day later.

01:38:16
Jmike
A day later.

01:38:18
Case
And the solution is that radar communicates with them at a hyper frequency that humans can't hear. Promises them capes and mechanical hands if they get to. Oh, and speakers. Pardon me? If they travel with him to a new planet and they create a new planet called Fight or that is close by the Suprematon world and sets up its own civilization. And that's. That's a cool detail. That's exactly what. What Alan Moore is like, moving towards, like, setting up like, all these, like big bastions of power that exist out there. And so here's just a world of superdogs with little robot hands.

01:38:59
Jmike
Awesome.

01:38:59
Logan
It's. It's so good.

01:39:02
Case
And then the issue concludes with supreme telling the story about, like, what happened from the perspective of Ethan Crane, as if he was told by supreme to Diana Dane. And it's like continuing this whole, like, up situation. But at least here is where Diana Dane figures out that supreme is Ethan.

01:39:18
Logan
Yeah, I'll maybe on a. On the moral sense, I'll give them a night. I'll give Superman or Supreme a night after to go. Maybe that wasn't great. Right. I think my problem with those movies in the Bronze Age is that you're clearly. You're looking at a prolonged event. Also, the other problem with the Bronze Age stuff is it's also kind of hinted in the Bronze Age that he's occasionally sleeping with Lana and Wonder Woman at different times while he was sleeping with Lois.

01:39:49
Case
So, like, that's Super Lothario.

01:39:51
Logan
Yeah, yeah. Bronze Age Superman. Like guys like Mark Wade and Alan Moore love to be like, Bronze Age. That's the Peak Superman. And I don't. I'm. I love. I love a lot of it, but I'm not with you guys necessarily.

01:40:05
Case
But anything we want to say about this issue before we move on?

01:40:09
Jmike
One of the best issues in this entire book. Book, hands down, bar none.

01:40:12
Logan
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

01:40:13
Case
It's such a. It's such a fun story. Like, like, we. We aren't going to spend too much time on it because it's very simple, but, like, the idea of just, like, super speed dog sex creating, like, tons of super puppies is so.

01:40:23
Jmike
Robot hands.

01:40:24
Case
Well, with robot hands.

01:40:26
Logan
And I will say that while I have a soft spot for the Jack Kirby issue, that comes at the end. If I was only going to recommend two issues of this comic to somebody, it would be the first issue of the Return into this one, because I think the radar stuff is the stuff that works the best for me. And if you just watch Superman and you went, damn, I love that dog. I want more superdog content. I think these two issues are probably the best superdog content you can get.

01:40:54
Case
Yeah.

01:40:54
Logan
Or at least in contention for it.

01:40:57
Case
Yeah, it's such a. It's such a good issue and it's. It's such a fun take on a super dog. But moving on, we get a backup feature to the League of Infinity. And so this is why I wanted to say I think that the League of Infinity is a beta test for the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. I think that they both have the same basic gimmick, which is a. A collection of literary references that you can feel very smart about understanding where they're from. I think that's the key one in this issue, especially because you get so many, like, cool characters from throughout history, like, peppered in here. But I also want to start off by just like, shouting out the Long live the Legion podcast right now, because if.

01:41:32
Case
If Jay from the Long Lived Legion podcast was reading this, he would be losing his shit because the character Pilot Xu is very clearly modeled after Drake Burrows.

01:41:41
Jmike
Oh, yeah.

01:41:42
Case
From the Legion of Superhero. Oh, yeah.

01:41:43
Logan
Wildfire. I mean, 100%.

01:41:44
Case
Yeah.

01:41:45
Logan
Even with, you know, his name is I. I can never remember what the Wildfire's original name is.

01:41:52
Case
Oh, yeah, I'm blanking on it. But. But yes, I know it's an acronym.

01:41:56
Logan
That looks like someone fell asleep on their keyboard. Yes. And Pilot Xu is. Is, I think, a clear nod to that. That in just his look as well. Wildfire. I like, definitely. I'm not as big a Wildfire fan as. As Jay, but he's One of my top five Legion members too. Yeah.

01:42:16
Case
He's so cool.

01:42:16
Logan
Especially in the. The version of him from the reboot Legion. From the Dan Abnett stuff.

01:42:24
Case
Yeah.

01:42:24
Logan
From Legion Law that had a very kind of. He was almost. He almost had like a Ben Grimm personality in that. More than the kind of. Of, you know, Hawkeye jerk that he was in the Levitt stuff. That specific one. If he was like that all the time, he'd be my favorite Legionnaire.

01:42:40
Case
Yeah. No, they. The Legion lost and the Legion era version of Wildfire is. Is fantastic. And this character is very clearly modeled after it in design, not in personality, as we will go into. But it's a. This is a fun issue. I. I think that this is one of my favorite stories in here just because there's so many, like, cool references to actual history or mythological characters in the form of I am going to butcher this name Chu Kong or Chu Ko Liang. And then with Sigfried, son of Sigmund and Siglind, who is from the Ring of the Nubling saga. So just like really fun characters there. And it. This is just a fun Legion of Superheroes story. Like, but with the League of Infinity convention of them being from different points in history. And then it's revealed that Pilot Xu is actually Optilix.

01:43:29
Case
And the way that it's revealed is, like, really clever. I love that, like, him. Him ranting in front of the birds was his downfall.

01:43:36
Logan
Yeah.

01:43:37
Case
Because Siegfried's able to speak the language of the birds.

01:43:40
Logan
You know, I was. Which reminds me of a Billy Strings lyric that I love where he's like, I'd sing along with the birds if I only knew the words. I've been listening to that album a lot this week. But the only issue that I have with this is when it's revealed that he's Optilux. I for a second was like, oh, he. They. It's a bait and switch. You think he's going to be like their Wildfire, but he really is like their Brainiac 5. No, he really is like a shish kebab at the end of this. Because when they figure out who he is, Siegfried stabs him like, on the spot. If there's one thing you can pick up from these stories is more the Legion has a no kill rule and the League of Infinity has a kill.

01:44:25
Logan
If you with them, you're going down. Like.

01:44:29
Jmike
Yeah.

01:44:29
Case
So this is just a. Like I said, just a really fun story. And it follows up with what happened to Optilix because he. He says he imprisoned me in amoleth. And that indicates that for at least the bulk of time, the. When suprema, like, blasted him, that was, like, the end of optics as a threat.

01:44:46
Logan
Oh, man, I. I missed this somehow the first time. I just realized the kid with the ray gun is Tom Swift.

01:44:53
Case
Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:44:54
Logan
Do you know that is actually where we get the term taser from to this day? Oh, no, from the Tom Swift book. That's the acronym for. Can't remember what the A stands for, but it's basically Tom A. Swift's electric rifle. That's what he calls his weapon in those pulp stories. And. And that's why tasers are called that.

01:45:15
Case
That is very cool. I did. I had no idea. That's. That's so cool, J. Mike, any other thoughts about this issue before we move on?

01:45:24
Logan
I'm good.

01:45:24
Jmike
I just learned something new today.

01:45:26
Case
Yeah, this is one the thing I love with Alan Moore books, where he really loves having literary references. Speaking of literary references, when we get into this next one, we are dealing with our equivalent of Arkham Asylum. What is it? Miskatonic Asylum.

01:45:40
Logan
Yeah. Which is a Lovecraft in itself. A reference.

01:45:44
Case
Oh, perfect. I figured it was something I didn't know exactly.

01:45:47
Logan
Miskatonic University is from a Lovecraft story.

01:45:51
Case
See, Perfect. Like, wonderful literary references. But we get Jack and Dandy, who is basically like, the icon of the New Yorker as a supervillain, as the Joker analog. In the setting.

01:46:04
Logan
You also have a very highbrow literary reference. Dwayne the Rock Johnson.

01:46:08
Jmike
Yeah.

01:46:09
Logan
Yes.

01:46:10
Jmike
Okay, cool. I was like, is that the Rock?

01:46:14
Logan
It doesn't matter.

01:46:16
Jmike
Sorry.

01:46:19
Case
We also have Lounge Lizard briefly in the shot. Which is their killer or their killer croc Analog. This issue, by the way, is drawn by Ian Churchill. So we. We got that art style going. Yeah, It's a very jarring change from a Chris Sprouse art, but it is. It is, like, very. It is good art. Yeah, it's just a very different style.

01:46:42
Logan
Although that panel where it is Diane looking at supreme as he unzips his pants is crazy suggestive for the. For the tone of the rest of this comic.

01:46:55
Case
Yeah, that. That whole page, it's like, oh, they about to fuck. And then it's like, oh, no, actually, he's revealing his, like, super outfit.

01:47:02
Logan
You know what I just noticed? He adds a belt.

01:47:06
Case
I did. Yeah, he does.

01:47:08
Logan
I. I dig it.

01:47:09
Case
I. I actually really like the way it looks in. In the Ian Churchill design. I think that belt does a lot to sort of, like, complete it, and it's probably my favorite shot of Supremes, like, costume wise, even though I think the Chris Sprouse art looks the best. Yeah, yeah, but you're dead set. Like, that belt is very cool.

01:47:27
Logan
I. You know, I just. Like I said, I just. I feel like the supreme costume almost. It always looks to me almost like somebody edited stuff off of it. Like, if it had a logo that was trademarked or something, and then they couldn't use it in the reprints or something. It always looks like, like there's a space for a logo and they just didn't do it. Which I guess the problem is you can't put an S on his chest. Right.

01:47:52
Case
Well, I think what you're saying is exactly the intent, at least, of the Alan Moore era for the character. Like, he's supposed to look like he has a logo on his chest, but they've removed it. He's Superman. With the serial numbers filed off.

01:48:03
Logan
They could have put the Taco Bell logo on there. There it is.

01:48:08
Case
So this issue is a microcosm of the supreme, the story of the year. It is a time loop, like a closed time loop story with the character of the Supremian man. And I don't get it fully, or rather, I think that there's, like, something missing, which is an explanation for all the encounters that supreme has with this version of the supreme man outside of just the first in this one specifically. Like, I don't. I don't get how the timeline works aside from as a closed loop for just these two encounters, but we know that the Supremeian man has shown up multiple times since then.

01:48:42
Logan
Yeah, this. This issue really works for me in the Superboy esque flashbacks and less so in the modern parts. Like, yeah, I. I think it loses a lot of its steam when you get to that.

01:48:57
Case
And, you know, also a bummer is the coloring on it is. Is up. The. The supreme man, rather than having different colored supremium, like, chunks on his belt, they. Or on his chest, they. They just draw them all red.

01:49:11
Logan
Yeah. Which I will say, though. Yeah. And it looks.

01:49:16
Case
It looks good, but, like, it. It doesn't lose the cool. Right. You lose the cool detail of the costume.

01:49:21
Logan
And I hate that, too, because the supremium man's design, I think, is much cooler and more interesting than, like, the traditional kryptonite man look, which is always just, I'm a goblin in a leotard. Like, I think this is a much cooler way to do that same power set.

01:49:36
Case
And I love the idea of, like, having the different types of supremium to use against. Against Supreme. You know, I've been a big fan of like, anyone who, like, does like, cool versions of the different kryptonites and that is effectively used here.

01:49:49
Logan
Yeah. Oh, and I, I just. Like I said, I'm a big Superboy fan though. And like, that part in the middle, that art specifically is just. Just gorgeous.

01:50:00
Case
Yeah. The, the. The Rick Veitch flashbacks are such a great part. And Logan, I would highly encourage you to check out the. If you can find the. The original trailer for the story of the year. Because every issue has a flashback by Veitch in there specifically because they are setting up the whole history of the character. And they're more infrequent in this volume just because it's no longer doing that. Like the story of the. His story.

01:50:25
Logan
It's been on my grail list for over a decade now, but I've never seen one in person and I've never seen one on ebay for less than 100 bucks. Like, really?

01:50:36
Case
Yeah, it's.

01:50:37
Logan
It. I don't. I don't know how long it's been since you priced these or. But the last time I was looking, they were. The trades were still well over a hundred dollars each. There's been a couple of times when my pocketbook has been tight where I go to my shelf and I hold this trade and I go, I know what I have to do, but I don't have the strength to do it and put it back.

01:50:56
Case
You know, I don't remember I bought J. Mike's copy and I don't remember how much I paid.

01:51:01
Logan
Well, that means it probably has come down. That would be lovely.

01:51:03
Jmike
Yeah.

01:51:04
Logan
I'm sure that with the dawn of, like, digital comics, like, that's probably forced them to be a little more reasonable about this.

01:51:11
Case
Well, but the fucked up thing is that it's difficult to, like, they don't have, like, these issues available digitally in any sort of convenient form. Like supreme the Return is available like that issue and like, a couple random issues are as well, but it's like, it's not a very complete digital availability for this book. Book, which sucks. Like, it's one of the reasons why it took us a while to like, actually, like, cover it on the show. But yeah, like, so the supreme man fuses with Billy Friday and then goes back in time to have his first adventure as the Meteor Master and then comes back into the future. And basically it's a closed loop of these two events which, like I said, doesn't quite make sense.

01:51:47
Case
Because we know that this Supremian man has had adventures like encounters with supreme outside of these two events. So that's the only part where I'm like, what the fuck? But as it is, I think it's a perfectly fine issue. It's like I said, it's a microcosm of the types of stories that Moore was doing in this book. Just like all is a one and done with this one issue.

01:52:06
Logan
It's also of a great microcosm of Silver Age DC continuity. Isn't this guy dead? Nah, he ain't clearly standing there.

01:52:17
Jmike
Another version of this guy.

01:52:18
Logan
Yeah. Oh, sorry, you were thinking of Earth 31B. He died on that one. Retroactive. Shunt this off into some side pocket and keep trucking.

01:52:29
Case
Yeah, I did, J. Michael. Go ahead. Sorry. Oh, sorry. Logan.

01:52:32
Logan
Logan, I, I. Did you think you blew my mind earlier when you said that Darius Dax was a Supreme Man? Because it made me go, did I never notice that Billy Friday is Darius Dax before in this? For just a minute, I thought, God, that actually would be like a really smart, very Moore esque twist is Jimmy Olsen grows up to be the Lex Luthor. But it would be.

01:53:00
Case
But they even like speculated upon that in this issue. And like I said, it was just me misunderstanding because Darius Dax is Supreme man one, just not supreme man two.

01:53:09
Logan
Well, I wish we could get into a fixed time loop with when Alan Moore was writing this so you could tell him, yeah, that's a great idea.

01:53:18
Case
So then the next issue is the Jack Kirby issue. You. J. Mike, what was your response when you. When you came across this one?

01:53:24
Jmike
Confusion. I had to go back and read it like a couple sections. And I was like, what is happening here? And I was like, oh. Oh, it's a Kirby thing. Oh, this is pretty cool. Oh, I love this. I love Jack Kirby.

01:53:37
Logan
I definitely. This is my second favorite issue. The first time I read it was my first favorite. But you have got to. I think you've got to be pretty well versed in Jack Kirby already to get everything out of this.

01:53:52
Case
Oh, yeah. There's so much love letter to just various Jack Kirby things strewn across this issue. So for readers or for listeners at home, this issue supreme finds this valley in the Himalayas that all of a sudden has a civilization appear in the mist that is just made up of composite bits of Jack Kirby stories. So stuff happening in Brooklyn, stuff happening in weird space futures, stuff happening in the Kamandi timeline, like stuff happening In World War II, like, it's all happening here.

01:54:24
Jmike
Dr. Was it Dr. Dread?

01:54:28
Case
Yes. Who is that? That is a shameless Dr. Doom right there.

01:54:32
Logan
You know what's interesting? There's. There's a little Easter egg in that too, though. It's his gloved fingertips. Like, he's definitely Dr. Doom. Splash of annihilus in there. But those gloved fingertips are the destruction glove, I think is what it's called that Jack that Darkseid gets in the original New Gods. Run. Run. That shoots the lasers out of the fingertips. Like, that's what. That's. Oh, cool. And that part, it just like all the little. Like this is almost like a nesting doll of Jack Kirby Easter eggs. The more corners of this you explore, the more you're gonna find.

01:55:08
Case
Yeah, it's a super dense issue in that regard. I. Yeah. With love letters to the Guardian, love letters to Sergeant Rock, just like all kinds of things. And basically he comes face to face with, like, what they sort of establish is just the spirit of Jack Kirby, like, still like the imagination, because he had just passed away a few years earlier at this point. And so it's just the, like, the. The love that Moore had for all the stuff that Jack Kirby did just like, on full display here where he gets like, a treatise of just discussing, like, his thoughts about, like, archetypal natures for characters. Like, he. He describes Superman or describes supreme as a wily, like, as like the Gladiator.

01:55:52
Case
And like, I think that's like, such a fun concept and, like, honestly was kind of eye opening for me or at the very least, like, really like, cemented my, like, thoughts about, like, the Superman archetype, which, like, kind of is why I have the Superman analog YouTube series.

01:56:08
Logan
Did you. Did you guys notice? Because I just noticed it for the first time that one of Sergeant Strong's damn bustin dog faces is Popeye.

01:56:17
Case
I did not.

01:56:17
Logan
Which Jack Kirby did a little bit of work on for Fleischer Studios back in the. In the way back when animation design.

01:56:24
Jmike
Oh, I see it. Oh, okay.

01:56:27
Case
Damn. Yeah.

01:56:28
Logan
Also, I don't. It's not a reference to a specific Jack Kirby thing that I know of, other than just the Howling Commandos being multicultural. But the guy who's in a sombrero and is playing a guitar in the foxhole is my favorite member, for sure.

01:56:43
Case
Yeah. And then unfortunately, that's where the story ends. The. The series ran. It's. Or like there are financial issues. Liefeld is not a particularly good businessman. And this. This kind of the awesome comics collapse. And I remember this. I was really sad when that happened because There was a lot of announcements for upcoming books. There was the Alan Moore Glory series that ran for two issues. Youngblood ran for three or four issues and was actually a really fun book. But this was where it ended. And at this point, I was reading it month to month, so it was really upsetting for me when the series ended at the time.

01:57:23
Logan
Yeah, I definitely understand that. At the same time, this is such a good issue to go out on, like, if you had to pick one to be the last one.

01:57:33
Case
Oh, yeah. For sure.

01:57:35
Logan
Though it is weird that it ends with a gay joke.

01:57:40
Case
Yeah. Again, this is, like, very 1997.

01:57:44
Logan
I don't. I will admit this is the kind of joke that I can see, like, you know, like my wife making to me or whatever, you know, like, it's cute. I don't. I don't think there's anything mean about it. It. You know, but it is.

01:57:56
Case
Right.

01:57:57
Logan
But. But it is. It is a weird thing to be true.

01:58:01
Case
Yeah. Especially for the end of the.

01:58:03
Logan
The.

01:58:04
Case
The issue that is the end of the series. Like. Yeah, but. Yeah, so that. That was. That was supreme, the Return. I maintain that the individual stories in this are better than anything that was an individual issue in supreme, the story of the year. But the story of the year is one complete story, whereas this is not. And that is kind of a. One of the bummers of it. Like, the. The arc that were building towards was never paid off, at least in the Alan Moore run. Like, we got the Eric Larson conclusion of this and we got the fan edit conclusion of this. But that's. But otherwise, it. It's a series that evaporated, and I.

01:58:37
Logan
Hate that because I think that. I think that you can see Alan Moore having a lot of fun in it, and it's such a different lane for him. You don't. He doesn't have a lot of stories where he gets to be fun or. Or uplifting or inspirational, you know, And I. And I'm a big Alan Moore fan, too, so, like, getting to see that side of him and seeing that he's not just. Not just the Killing Joke and Watchmen and stuff like that is. Is one of the most interesting parts of it. I. I gotta tell you, if you ever want to do an episode on 1964, I would be down for that one, too. Another famously unfinished but brilliant Alan Moore work from his reconstruction era. Yeah, like, I also. Rick Veitch did the art on those.

01:59:25
Logan
Those are really fantastic comics as well. And I. I hate that the. This whole, you know, Tom Strong is really Good in its own right, but it's not really the same thing. And he kind of just closed the chapter on this when these companies folded and never went back.

01:59:42
Case
Right. Which is. Is just a bummer in. In the long run. Now, like I said, we. We do have a. A version of an ending for this, and then we have a continuation in the form of Supreme Blue Rose. So there is. There. There is some. There's a consolation prize, I guess, is really what I'm getting at.

02:00:02
Logan
A souvenir Supreme.

02:00:04
Case
Yeah, a souvenir Supreme. So why don't we talk about what works in this book? Logan, you have not had a chance to really talk about supreme as a franchise up until now with us. So what works for you?

02:00:22
Logan
For me, it's definitely the nostalgia to the era of Superman that it's riffing on, and I love that. I think you can see that the effect of this comic success brought a lot of that back to Superman. You know, the Loeb Kelly era borrows a lot, I think, from the tone and ideas and even the way that Superman is drawn in a lot of that. I think Hark is.

02:00:47
Case
Yeah. With, like, the McGinnis artwork. Yeah.

02:00:49
Logan
So I think that in that regard, it was successful, but it was just. Especially at the time that it came out. And when I read it, you know, I read this around the same time as, like, identity crisis, an infinite crisis. And so this was really like a. Like. Like a bottle of good water to me at that time in a hot desert, because there was not fun, classic comics like this coming out. And that. That's my favorite thing about it is it's. It's nostalgic without. Without being campy, without being trite. You know, it walks that line so well.

02:01:29
Case
Yeah. Like, when this was coming out, as much as I like the Triangle era of Superman, I do think it's a very specific era of Superman. And, like, this is coming out simultaneous with that and was a throwback to the silver age, which was just a breath of fresh air for what were getting at the time.

02:01:46
Logan
As much as I love the Triangle era, there's never been a good idea that didn't run out of road eventually. And this didn't. This came out in the Triangle era. But if. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was opposite, like, Electric Blue Superman and the Millennium Giants and stuff. So that's. Those are not. You know, I have a soft spot for Electric Superman because of my age and when I started reading comics, but those are not. Those are not great comics. And so this was probably. If that was all you were able to get for Superman at the time, I'm sure this was fantastic.

02:02:20
Case
Yeah, I mean, consider like Superman had a big family at that point, but it was Steel, it was Superboy, and it was the Matrix entity, Supergirl. That was his world at this point. And this was a very like, classic kind of Superman story. Just as a throwback. J Mike, how about you? What do you think really stands out as a thing that really works in this?

02:02:41
Jmike
The dog.

02:02:44
Case
Yes, exactly. Crypto didn't exist. Crypto was not around when this came out. Like it was the Loeb Kelly era that they brought back crypto. So he had been gone since Crisis on Infinite Earths.

02:02:55
Jmike
I hadn't been that long.

02:02:56
Logan
Yeah, he had showed up for a couple of cameos around like the suit, like the death of Superboy story and stuff. But. And then Superboy had a, a runt dog that Bib saved that ends up accidentally named Crypto, but has no power. But as far as a real dog in a cape with Superman's powers, that's around regularly. He didn't come back until the Return to Krypton arc in 2001. Around there, right?

02:03:29
Case
Yeah, somewhere like that.

02:03:30
Logan
So 86 to 2001, there's. There's no crypto in the books. Really. And that is one thing where I break a lot. And I'm never going to convince you guys didn't meet me until James Gunn Superman movie was coming out. I'm never going to convince anybody that I believe this first. But I'm just going to have to promise you guys. I have been a crypto defender as like he needs to be in the Superman canon. Since I was like nine. I've had so many comic book shop fights with people being like, that dog's stupid. You. What do you, what else do you want? Do you want pink kryptonite? Do you want, you know, do you want a bunch of robots in his closet or whatever? You know, like, you know, there.

02:04:11
Jmike
Was a horse too.

02:04:12
Logan
Yeah.

02:04:13
Jmike
Yep.

02:04:13
Case
There's Comet the Stallion supreme. Or Comet the super horse. It's serious. The Stallion Supreme.

02:04:19
Logan
Sorry, friend, I think you just did a slip up. Supreme. Yeah, no, but. And, and that, like Comet the super horse.

02:04:27
Case
Yeah.

02:04:27
Logan
And I do acknowledge that if were talking about bringing back Beppo the super monkey. No, don't. We don't need him. But crypto to me is as necessary to Superman, especially Superboy, as Robin is to Batman. There is something that really gets to kids and everybody about Superman having that dog, and it lightens the character and it adds a note of heartwarming that Superman has the market cornered on. There are no other dog superheroes, really. Kind of Jeff the Landshark now, I guess. And then Dyno Mutt on tv, but nobody was touching super dogs because of crypto. And then DC just went, no, crypto's dumb. We're not using it. You know, I think it's a real mistake. And I think this book probably highlighted.

02:05:25
Logan
I don't doubt in the least that somebody at DC looked at these radar issues and went, oh, yeah, we need crypto back. Yeah.

02:05:32
Jmike
Because I'm trying to think. I'm like all the animated shows. I don't think he was ever in there until. What's the episode? I'm always thinking for the man who has everything.

02:05:40
Case
The JLU episode. Oh, yeah. As the reference.

02:05:43
Logan
Well, there's a puppy, Krypto, that dies on Krypton in the first episode of the Animated Series.

02:05:50
Jmike
Yeah.

02:05:51
Logan
But don't forget, too, though, that crypto ends up having his own solo series, which is weird, but pretty good. In the early 2000s, Superman gives him to a kid that doesn't have any friends. And so crypto lives in this kid's backyard. And Streaky's in it, too.

02:06:11
Case
Yeah, that's on the list for us to talk about eventually on here. But, yeah, like, crypto got a push in the early 2000s after being gone for all the 90s. Like, the. The edgy 90s just were like, yeah, we can't. We can't have a super dog.

02:06:23
Logan
Yeah, he's such a good idea. But the biggest thing is that nobody else is going to do him because it's like the Flash, right. If you give another guy super speed, nobody goes, oh, what a great super speed idea. They all go, oh, you're doing the Flash. Right. And that's the problem with dog superheroes, my comic, that I'm trying to get off the ground right now. I have a super strong dog in it named Puddin. Right. Who is. Who is an old man who gets superpowers. Dog. Dog. And I'm constantly trying to figure out, how do I do this as just as not just crypto. And, like, when James Gunn announced that crypto was coming out, I very nearly just took her out of the book, you know, because crypto is. Is that.

02:07:06
Logan
And D.C. just refused to break the glass on him for whatever reason.

02:07:11
Case
Yeah. I mean, with dog superheroes, it's either Crypto or it's Lockjaw.

02:07:14
Logan
Oh, yeah, it is locked. Yeah. Yeah. Which lockjaw also is criminally underused.

02:07:19
Case
Yes. Lockjaw from the Inhumans. Like the giant pug with, like, the.

02:07:24
Jmike
Fork on his horn.

02:07:26
Case
But, like, from the Marvel Comics property.

02:07:29
Logan
The Inhumans never did that. Let me also say that if you want to enjoy the Inhumans, watch is definitely the wrong verb. Read the Inhumans. For the love of God. I'm trying to rescue you from.

02:07:42
Jmike
I mean, I know who they are. I just never got into their there stuff.

02:07:45
Case
Yeah, there's a pretty good version of the Inhumans on the Fantastic Four cartoon from the 90s.

02:07:49
Logan
Oh, that's true. I forgot about that. Yeah.

02:07:51
Case
Which includes a really funny sequence where the thing has to take Lockjaw for a walk. And Lockjaw is a teleporting giant pug. Like, giant pug. I mean, like, he's the size of the thing.

02:07:59
Logan
You know what's interesting? Do you know? So there's a comic from the 80s that famously tried to write Lockjaw out by revealing.

02:08:07
Case
Yes. Where by revealing that he was actually an Inhuman.

02:08:11
Logan
And there is a comic from that Superboy issue where Krypto is exposed to gold kryptonite, loses his powers, and then, as we talked about before, it doesn't appear in another Superman comic for nearly 20 years. Both of which were written by John Byrne.

02:08:25
Case
John Byrne.

02:08:28
Logan
When did John Byrne get bitten by a dog? What is his problem?

02:08:36
Case
Yeah, we talked about that when we covered the death of Superboy, where it was such a weird plan where he just opened up the gold Kryptonite for no apparent reason.

02:08:44
Logan
Yeah, well, it really just reads as a smug like, yeah, you can't have crypto. Yeah. Just. Look, I'm not. Not even in this pocket universe are we keeping crypto around. We're killing the dog, we're killing the boy. You know, everybody's.

02:08:58
Case
Which was a shame.

02:09:00
Logan
Which I. Which I hate so much. I don't know. I'm pretty sure, based on things that Marv Wolfman has said and frustration that he had because he specifically talked about how the Legion office really got in the way of a lot of his plans for Crisis on Infinite Earths. So I've never heard this explicitly said, but I'm pretty sure that the only reason Superboy prime exists is because that was supposed to be Legion Superboy with Earth 2 Superman at the end against the Anti Monitor, and the Legion office blocked it. And so Superboy prime gets created in a spin off issue halfway through Crisis if you look in those issues, Superboy prime has a very weirdly round belt buckle for Superboy, almost as if it's supposed to have a big L in the middle of it.

02:09:55
Jmike
Oh.

02:09:57
Logan
So I can't really like confirm this, but I've always had a sneaking suspicion that what that ending was supposed to be was Golden Age Superman and Silver Age Superboy teaming up to defeat the Anti Monitor and then going off into their. Their big rest. And that is such a better ending for that version of the character than what Byrne ends up doing. Doing. I really hate that the Legion office didn't let them do it if they were going to end up just doing it anyway.

02:10:28
Case
I mean, it's hard to really put, you know, say that it's Legion office's fault considering that they got fucked over by the Superman office following that. So I don't know necessarily, like, it does kind of make sense. Like, but maybe like it could just be them pointing out like, the rules of time travel are like, they can't be in the same era as themselves anyway in DC comics. So it could have been just as simple as, like, oh, well, you can't have Superboy there because Superman's around. Or it could have been like more of a full on fight. I'm going to say that we should get back to the comic.

02:10:58
Logan
Yes. Yeah, that's a good call.

02:11:02
Case
All right, so we like the dogs. I really like. I think that there's a lot going for the individual stories. I think that even the Confederacy winning story, which is like so fucking awkward, is at least a very interesting story, like in terms of like doing one off issues. Because, like I said, the supreme, the story of the year was a 12 issue like arc. While the issues have standalone properties to them, it was very clearly part of one continuous story. Whereas in this case we get all these standalone issues even though they have like serialization components of it. Like things like setting up like Billy Friday's laptop being in the hell of Mirrors or the relationship between Diana and Supreme. It still is.

02:11:44
Case
Each of these individual issues are really solid standalone stories of the character like that you could just pick up and be like, oh, this is a pretty dope story about a Superman type character.

02:11:54
Logan
Yeah. Okay, here's a question for you on that note, because I. Because I think you're right. I think the individual issues in this are one of my favorite things about it. It's a good time to plug that. I host a podcast that's all about how good an individual issue of a comic can Be. And all of. And almost all of these are on the list to do for single bound.

02:12:17
Case
Plug, Plug.

02:12:18
Logan
But if you guys could pick one issue from this that all of your friends will read and one issue of this to delete forever. What are your two picks? And obviously the, you know, I've already kind of said mine's the Confederacy. Well, one, yeah.

02:12:37
Case
I think from a deletion standpoint, the Confederacy one is the only one that I would. That I could delete and not feel like I was losing a huge chunk of the story.

02:12:45
Jmike
I like the Dax episode.

02:12:48
Case
Well, but then the. The Dax episode might actually be my least favorite issue, but I can't remove it because it's so integral to, like, what they were, like, building up towards. Even though we don't actually say it.

02:12:59
Logan
Almost sounds like it works better if you do delete it because then.

02:13:02
Jmike
Yeah, because, like, you don't get the payoff for it.

02:13:04
Case
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. You know, I probably end up going with your. With your pick, which is that supreme, the Return is the one I would like show a person, like, the first issue, or rather the issue that starts with Bill Clinton and whatnot being assaulted by Korg of the Space Tyrant.

02:13:19
Logan
Yeah, that's definitely mine as well, I think. What about you, J. Mark?

02:13:25
Jmike
I'm still going to say the. The Puppies episode, that.

02:13:29
Case
That's a really strong one too.

02:13:30
Logan
Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's a great.

02:13:33
Jmike
I pretty. That's my favorite one of this entire book.

02:13:37
Case
But I also love, like, the sass. The Sprite supreme issue. Like, I think that's a really, like, fun take on a Mr. Mixy Spiddolick issue. Like, and, you know, is. Is so innovative and like, so, you know, like, the fact that they could just like, this is like one of those, like, advancements that they could do because they could do digital art that they could put the tiny panels in as opposed to, like an artist having to go in and fucking draw it so that they could do this kind of miniaturization and mirrorings. So, like, all that kind of stuff. I think it's a very visually appealing issue that works very well as a standalone issue.

02:14:11
Case
But yeah, I think that the supreme, the Return number one, the issue where the hell of mirrors characters get actually rounded up is such a strong issue that you can just. That you get the gist of it pretty easily when you. When you pick up the issue. And it's just very cool.

02:14:27
Logan
Yeah.

02:14:27
Jmike
Yeah.

02:14:28
Logan
What's your. What's your Delete J.

02:14:30
Jmike
Well, I said it was a DAX episode.

02:14:32
Logan
Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like I said that one. I. I don't think I'd delete that one, but it. It was definitely the one that drugged the most for me. Of, like. Like I said, I was really into it up until about the duck. And then I was like, all right, this. So this is. It felt more like a tour than a story.

02:14:50
Jmike
I will say that it did have, like, some really interesting scenes in there, especially the one we didn't talk about where they have Doomsday restrained in the chair.

02:15:01
Case
Yeah.

02:15:01
Jmike
And I was like, oh, that's awesome.

02:15:03
Logan
Yeah, that's pretty cool.

02:15:04
Jmike
But because. But because it doesn't have the payoff, that's the one. I can go.

02:15:10
Logan
I. I hate that. So many writers, like Morrison and Wade and Moore that do these kind of big concept Silver Age Superman stories, they all tend to hate Doomsday. So, like, if they do anything with him, it's he's in a chair or Jimmy Olsen kind of turns into him. Because I feel like there is so much unmind potential from a writer like that with the idea that Doomsday is death, is the ever evolving nature of death always finding a way to get you personified. And all the. And it feels like all the writers who would tap into that are. Feel like they're too good for him, you know, And I felt that way a little bit with Doomsday. You could have done an amazing issue of this comic with supreme in a Doomsday.

02:16:03
Logan
I think Alan Moore would have knocked that out of the park, and instead he's an Easter egg in a chair.

02:16:09
Case
I think Alan Moore could have knocked it out of the park, but I do worry that would have been more of the Grimm style that Moore was deliberately trying to avoid when he was doing this book.

02:16:19
Logan
Yeah, I could definitely see it sliding.

02:16:20
Case
Into that because, like, he could, like, I could picture him doing something like the kid Miracle man fight with Doomsday. Yeah, like that degree of devastation, which they aren't too far away from when they did the actual, like, Doomsday fight in the Superman books. But, you know, like, really taking it up. Up to like this like, crazy degree. So I. I feel like he. He could do it really well, but he definitely just doesn't want to.

02:16:44
Logan
Right here. Well, yeah, and. And. And that's the answer with, you know, but like, with All Star, a lot of these, where these characters go on big tours of Superman, it feels like they skip that huge chapter in the character. And. And like, I said, I just, I would have liked to have seen what, what he does with it, especially if he kept it light.

02:17:03
Jmike
Right.

02:17:03
Logan
What does a light hearted doomsday look like? It could be done, you know, it could have been what Vor m was, you know.

02:17:13
Case
So here's a question on the flip side of what were just talking about. Where does this book kind of falter?

02:17:18
Jmike
In my opinion, if you have no idea what the heck is going on, it's kind of like hard to jump into at certain points. Yeah, I, I mean there's some cool concepts here or there, but like if you don't know who the hell supreme is, you're like, oh, so it's just another Superman type thing and you kind of like brush it off.

02:17:36
Logan
Well, I especially, I wouldn't give it to anybody who doesn't have a pretty like a journeyman's knowledge of Superman. Right. I think you would have had. I think you need to know a lot about the, his not about the history of Superman to really appreciate a lot of what's going on in here. Kind of like that Jack Kirby issue, like when we talked about it, you've got to have like, there's prereqs to this class, to the supreme class, you know.

02:18:03
Jmike
Yeah.

02:18:04
Logan
And then other than that, I just think the humor is. I, I think it is a lot more dated than a lot of Moore's work gets. And, and it's because of the humor. Like the.

02:18:15
Case
Yeah, the jokes are definitely of their time and some of them have not aged particularly well. I also think the book falters just because the art is inconsistent. And that is a, a problem. That is a production problem. Not like anyone's. Well, it's Rob Liefeld's fault.

02:18:29
Logan
But I will say though that is something where I think that doesn't bother me as much because like the first comics I ever read were essentials of the old Marvel stuff. And reading Marvel stuff in the 70s and 80s and the long boxes at the shop my dad worked at. So like, people, I know people right now especially get really been out of shape when artists change. But to me, I think that's just part of the beautiful collaboration of the medium is like getting to see the shifts. That doesn't bother me as much as it does a lot of folks.

02:19:05
Case
I mean, like for example, the Judy Jordan issue, I really like that they do different artists for the different chapters. But having Chris Sprouse as one of those chapters is really nice. I think that if we Had Chris Sprouse throughout a bit more of this issue or a few more issues of this, it would feel a bit more of a complete work. Yeah, that's true, because yourself cited that you didn't really like the art of, for example, like, the prison escape or like the prison world of Amalith, like that whole section like there.

02:19:37
Logan
I agree with that.

02:19:39
Case
And if it had been Chris Sprouse, that wouldn't have been the issue, 100%.

02:19:43
Logan
Well, let me say absolutely. If I could only pick one artist to have done the whole thing, not counting Rick Veitch's flashbacks. Right. But if, but for the modern stuff, it absolutely would have been Sprouse. I think his stuff in this book is when the supreme idea works the best. And you can see really what more is going for is when Sprouse is the one drawing it.

02:20:08
Case
Yeah, completely. Just gorgeous work. And it was such a shame that he only came on at the very end of the story of the year, because for a minute there was this identity to the book. It was like, it's Alan Moore and Chris Sprouse's book. And then that gets lost almost as quickly as it had been gained.

02:20:28
Logan
Something I thought of reading at this time a couple of times. Disney has tried to get an Incredibles comic off the ground. Boom. Had one and idw. Had one for a minute. It. And looking at it this time, I thought, God, a Chris Sprouse Incredibles comic would look amazing.

02:20:45
Case
Oh, yeah.

02:20:46
Logan
Like, his style blended with the art style from those movies. I mean, it just. Yeah, I would buy as many issues as they printed.

02:20:58
Case
Yeah. So, like, the art is, like, an area that I, I think, like I said, it's inconsistent. It's not that, like, I have, like, huge issues with any of the artists. Artists in the book. It's just that it doesn't have, like, a set style to it with. Which was unfortunate because this era of the book was promised as being, like, okay, now we've got Sprouse on board as like, a permanent artist going forward. And, and that just was, like, kind of a bummer there. And like we said, it's kind of dated in some areas. Like, I, I, I know that I have too rosy of an outlook on it. So, like, I'm just curious, like, where, like, you know, where else does this falter?

02:21:33
Jmike
J. Mike says it falter. Yeah, I think we kind of, like, hit the most the basic points that I had for that, or, like, it's, if you don't have a deep knowledge of Superman or the Superman archetypes, you can probably. This would probably be a miss for you. And the art is very Helter Skelter in certain places.

02:21:54
Case
Yeah.

02:21:57
Logan
I will say, just for my taste, and we got into this a little bit earlier, but just the version of Superman that Supreme is riffing on. I'm not a fan of the kind of passive, obtuse, Silver Age Superman. And supreme gets into that a couple of times. There's moments. There's moments in this, and I think it is the character. I don't think it's a mistake, but there's moments in this where you just want to shake him and be like, hey, man, if you were like, proactive and active, like you're. You're building robots with realistic dog blood, but you didn't think to try to like, check up on this prison, you know, or like. Or stuff like that. Like, if you. If you were taking this as seriously as you were taking gaslighting your co workers, maybe a lot of this crap wouldn't have happened.

02:22:48
Logan
And I don't think you have that as much with. They do a better job with modern Superman of finding ways for the hijinks to ensue that don't make him look as bad as supreme does at times in this.

02:23:01
Case
Yeah, I mean, that's the pastiche nature of this where, like, they are kind of riffing on that Silver Age Superman sometimes for humor.

02:23:08
Logan
Well, and I. And I think it's very like the panel where they're kissing over Shorten's dead body. I think it's very intentional. I think Moore's trying to say something about that, but I think that is some of Moore's cynicism kind of leaking back in a way that doesn't really happen with Tom Strong. Like, Tom Strong's kind of emotionally detached, but he is. But he is outgoing, you know, like, he doesn't. He doesn't let somebody. Somebody doesn't walk by. Tom Strong sad and Tom Strong go fuck was her problem. Like supreme does, you know? Yeah. Like, he at least tries to go and figure out why his wife is upset or his daughter is having a hard time or whatever. Ever. And just for personal taste, I just prefer that in a character.

02:23:52
Logan
And it probably would have escalated how much I like supreme if he had a little bit more of that All Star Superman kind of thread through him.

02:24:00
Case
Yeah. The passivity that you're talking about. I was thinking about this with the Confederacy issue. Supreme actually doesn't do anything in the issue he just shows up to the League of Infinity and is there while they respond to it. Like, he's present. Like, that's all you can say for him in that issue. And it's just him taking in, as a passive observer, the events of that issue.

02:24:25
Logan
I will say, too, and this is definitely me looking at this through a modern lens. It's not fair to say wild that he finds that costume in his closet and then puts it on. I would.

02:24:37
Case
Yeah. I mean, it's supposed to be that he's just, like, tired and not really looking.

02:24:41
Logan
I would fight crime in Fruit of the Looms before. Before I flew out the window. Although I do. I do agree with you from. From purely an aesthetic and not at all political or historical context, it does look kind of dope with the stars and bars.

02:24:58
Case
It's so. It's so annoying. It's so annoying because, like, it. Like, again, it's. It fucking the board, like, just awful.

02:25:06
Logan
You know, a little nugget of. Nugget of. Of truth that I'm not supposed to snitch about from the South. That's not the Confederacy's real flag, but there's a reason that's the one that they use, because everybody who sees it goes, that's pretty dope. That looks good. Pretty cool. That's way better than the, like, minimalist American flag were actually using down here. That's. Yeah. And, you know, I look at those. The swastika's history with pulp heroes before the Nazis. Right? Like, the Phantom's got it on his hand india. That's still a very common. You know, that. That is the trouble with humans. Love of iconography is most of the time, if somebody decides to abscond with a symbol, it's because it's important or as aesthetically pleasing or whatever. So we've got to.

02:26:02
Logan
We've got to then contend with, like, oh, man, I still really, like, I don't know, the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, but now it sucks, you know? And where do we. Where do weigh that? You know? And that is. That is one of the things I think, that keeps that flag around is there's a lot. There's a lot of people who wear it for very nefarious, evil reasons. But there are a lot of people down here who just do not put that much thought into it, who just looked at it and went, that's cool.

02:26:33
Jmike
That's pretty.

02:26:33
Logan
That looks great. I. I'm a. I'm a put it on every inch of this pickup truck. Like, Right. And. And that's something that I think humans aren't ready to deal with, that there are some people who are using wicked symbols just because they look cool and they. And unfortunately, this time, it does not. I'm not wearing one. I'm not going to fly around. Nope, nope. I'm not going to go. Go. I'm not gonna go talk to my black robot butler. The other stuff supreme decides to do after he finds it in his closet. But, yeah, but it definitely solves. Like I was again, like I said, there's some kind of weird monkey's paw thing with this going on here for me, where I look at Supreme's costume and I go, oh, man, I wish there was a symbol there. Oh, no, no, no.

02:27:20
Logan
It's like, one worse symbol you could have picked up.

02:27:26
Jmike
Yeah.

02:27:27
Case
All right, so final thoughts on supreme the Return before we call it for this very long episode. J, Mike, go read the dog episodes.

02:27:36
Jmike
They're awesome. So cool. Radar gets his time to shine.

02:27:42
Case
Yes. Logan, how about you?

02:27:44
Logan
You know, if you're not a huge Superman fan, that just short, I would maybe shore that up before you read this, but if you are a huge Superman fan and you haven't read this, do yourself a favor. And again, I've never read Story of the Year. I have a lot of nostalgia for this comic, but it's just this trade that's the only one I've ever had. I think that you could jump into this one having not read Story of the Year if you happen to find it first and still have a good.

02:28:09
Case
Time, I think so. Like I said, I think that there's a lot of standalone issues here. Like you said, you need to know more about Superman necessarily, than you do need to know about Supreme. Like, as long as you know that he's a Superman pastiche, you're. You're pretty good to go. And. And, yeah, I think it's a really worthwhile book. Like, it's like I said, I. I have so much nostalgia, and I'm not trying to, like, thrust my nostalgia on everyone. Well, kind of. That is what this podcast is like.

02:28:37
Logan
No, brother, you're talking to a damage fan. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna judge you for that.

02:28:46
Case
But anyway, so, yes, so I. I think it is a really fun story with, like, really fun individual issues that are. That were very inventive at the time and maybe haven't aged, like, 100 as well, but in general, it's still coming from, like, a place of creativity and of inspiration that I. That I find really rewarding when I look at this.

02:29:10
Logan
I. I mean, I like it more than. This is probably my hot. I'll end on a hot take. I like this more than I like Invincible. I like it way more and I like Invincible quite a bit. I like it way more than I like the boys. I don't like the boys at all. Like, if you're looking for a. If your criteria is Superman, but not Superman, this is about as good as it gets. You know, this or Mr. Majestic's pretty good. But I don't, you know, Miracle man in a very bleak way. But boy, go into that with your seatbelt on, you know, like. But. But this is a great option for that.

02:29:48
Case
For real. So I think we've said what we need to say about supreme the Return. It's. We. We've said it. We've said three hours of what we need to say about supreme the Return. So. So, Logan, where can people find you and follow you? Thank you for coming on.

02:30:03
Logan
You can find me and my beautiful wife Amy on Single Bound podcast. Her beauty will do nothing for you though, because we're currently only in an audio format. Well spoken though. We review single issues of comics that stand on their own. What we think is great about them. You can find us@singlebound podcastmail.com if you want to suggest an issue. We've currently only ever gotten one piece of fan mail. Shout out to Lorenzo, who I'm sure listens to this show as well. Yes, yes. And we read his comic on the air. If you are constantly a fan of these podcasts and you send in your submissions and they never read them, my brother, this is your moment. Do it now. We will take your comic. You will get through the door.

02:30:50
Logan
You are walking into an empty bar at this point and we would love to have you.

02:30:55
Case
Yes, everyone should check out Single Bound. It's a really fun concept for a show and I'll be on not too long from now.

02:31:00
Logan
You're going to be on pretty soon doing the Batman and Captain America crossover.

02:31:06
Case
Yeah. Also by John Byrne if we want to talk about noted dog hater the.

02:31:12
Logan
Poor dogs Ace run.

02:31:18
Case
But yeah, so everyone should check that out. Sorry, did you give your socials?

02:31:23
Logan
I think so, yeah. Single Bound podcast at Gmail and singlebound Pod on Instagram. Okay, cool. Yeah.

02:31:32
Case
So everyone should check all that out and just because you're awesome and single Bound is a really fun concept. So definitely want to. To shout out that J. Mike, where can People find you and follow you.

02:31:42
Jmike
You can find me over on the Blue Sky. It's a five bluesky social. Also kind of sort of on the Discord server as well. Mostly kind of around always lurking.

02:31:57
Case
Yes, the Discord is a great place to find us. You can find a link to our Discord server in our show notes and on the main page for certainpov.com just come and chat. We, we have really good conversations there. It's, it's a great time. So I, I, I would highly recommend people do that if you don't want to find me on the Discord server because you're not into Discord, which I can understand. Like, we don't, we all have like things that we just don't want touch. You can find me on most socials Aiken these days I'm mostly directing people to the Blue Sky. You can also find me on Instagram quetzalcoatl5 because I was pretentious in high school. And that is Q U E T Z A L C o a t l 5 yay. That, that's, there's that.

02:32:41
Case
We should shout out some, we should shout out a show on our network and I'm gonna shout out the new show that we're launching which is kind of like Single Bound, but it's not because it's about trade paperbacks and that is Trade School. That is a new program that I am spearheading which is like side quest from Fun and Games, if you're familiar with that one, where a guest host comes on and talks for about five to 15 minutes about a trade paperback that they really loved. Give some thoughts about that. We would really love submissions. By the time this episode drops, the show will have launched and I've got three months worth of back catalog already, which is great.

02:33:15
Case
But I would love to have more submissions from people because it's going to be a weekly show about comic books and really celebrating comic books and why they're cool. So check out Trade School. Like that. It's, it's on its own feed. It's on the same YouTube feed here. If you are watching this on YouTube but if you are listening to this as a podcast, it's got its own feed. So look up Trade School. And I'm really excited about that. So that's the thing I'm going to plug. But then we also have some people that we should thank because we have a Patreon going now and that is going really strong and really well. And I really want to thank the people who joined the Patreon at the executive producer level.

02:33:51
Case
And that includes Micah McCaw, Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, Lee Gregor Memento Young, Logan Crowley.

02:33:57
Logan
Hey, that sounds like a tool.

02:34:00
Case
Joe Mastropiero, Casey and Nancy Aiken, Adam Sampter, and Keith Letinen. So we just have to say thank you so much everyone who has contributed to the Patreon. It's, it's so wonderful. Even if you just sign up as a free member, we're still doing bonus content such as essays that I write on the weekly basis, both a nerdy essay and also a D and D focused essay that I've been doing every week. And that's been a lot of fun just to have a place to, you know, get my thoughts out there upon the world.

02:34:28
Logan
But let me say, as a customer, by the way, I love those essays.

02:34:32
Case
Oh, thank you very much.

02:34:33
Logan
The D and D ones are very dangerous for me because I do not have bandwidth in my life right now to get back into D D. But every time one of those crosses the thing, I'm like, oh, that's a pretty good rogue idea. That's a pretty good fighter Paladin. I could, I could do a Paladin like.

02:34:53
Case
Well, thank you for saying that. I. I've been having a lot of fun writing these articles and so I really would encourage people to check out our Patreon. It's. You can find it@patreon.com certainpovmedia and yeah, just check us out. We've been going strong and would love to see you there, but otherwise, just find me on the Discord, find me wherever, and until next time, stay super man.

02:35:24
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Ricciardi. Our logo is by Chris Bautista and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our theme is by Jeff Moonan.

02:35:44
Case
We love digging into epic comic book runs, but what about the art of the single issue? Single Bound is a new podcast series hosted by married couple Amy and Logan as they review single issues of comics. And if the title also makes you think of Superman and you're not alone as the man of Steel is Logan's favorite character and a regular topic of discussion on Single Bound. Listen and subscribe on Spotify and YouTube and follow the show on Instagram at Single Bound Podcast cpov certainpov. Com.