World's Finest (1990) with Kris Ingersoll
This week on Men of Steel, Case and Jmike are joined by Kris Ingersoll (Media/Lit, Batman By The Numbers) to talk about the 1990 World’s Finest miniseries! We dig into how this story redefined the dynamic between Superman and Batman, the tone of early ’90s DC, and why this team-up still holds up decades later.
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Men of Steel Full
Episode Originally aired: December 5, 2025
Edited by Sophia Ricciardi
Scored by Geoff Moonen
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Outline
️ Introduction to Podcast and Guests (00:00 - 02:51)
Hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson introduce the episode and guest Kris Ingersoll, who runs a Batman podcast and co-hosts Media Lit podcast.
Topic: The 1990 DC Comics miniseries World's Finest by Dave Gibbons and Steve Rood.
Contextual Background of the 1990 World's Finest (02:51 - 05:34)
The miniseries releases shortly after Crisis on Infinite Earths and John Byrne’s Man of Steel reboot (1986).
Post-Dark Knight Returns, Batman and Superman’s relationship had changed, characterized by distance rather than camaraderie.
️ Plot Overview (05:34 - 08:14)
Lex Luthor and Joker team up to take over Gotham and Metropolis with intertwined but largely separate schemes.
Batman and Superman investigate, culminating in events involving an orphanage, a nuclear reactor, and city-wide explosions.
Decompression and Story Structure Critique (08:14 - 11:34)
Discussion of story pacing issues: The narrative is elongated with side elements (e.g., orphan kids) that do not cohesively tie in.
Emphasis on character moments over tight plotting.
Initial Impressions and Artistic Elements (11:34 - 17:59)
Chris praises the visual storytelling and art, referencing the use of parallel imagery and distinctive flashback watercolor style.
Noted the deliberate design choices to echo Silver Age and Max Fleischer era Superman and early Batman.
️ Characterization of Villains and Supporting Cast (17:59 - 30:39)
Joker portrayed in a “zany," less menacing mode, more a prankster than murderously malicious.
Lex Luthor features a robotic hand and operates like a mob boss, balancing businessman and villain traits.
Character Dynamics and Relationships (30:39 - 40:21)
Lois Lane and Bruce Wayne’s interactions highlight mutual suspicion and gradual respect.
Batman and Superman’s knowledge of each other’s secret identities is subtle initially, revealed more overtly in third issue.
️ Themes and Continuity Notes (40:21 - 50:27)
Orphanage is a thematic midpoint between Gotham and Metropolis, symbolizing shared orphan backgrounds of Batman, Superman, and villain.
The book emphasizes orphans and legacy but does not fully develop these thematic elements.
Technical and Artistic Praise (50:27 - 52:58)
Art and character design praised for classic yet fresh look; great use of tableau pages showing Gotham and Metropolis.
Noted the Batmobile’s stylish design and Batman’s athletic, sleek physique.
Character in Action: Batman and Superman (52:58 - 59:55)
Batman characterized as efficient, brutal, and action-focused. His use of Batarangs and disguises recognized as authentic.
Superman rendered as powerful but more grounded Burn era 'cop,' balancing investigative journalism and heroic strength.
Artistic and Thematic Highlights (59:55 - 01:09:46)
Memorable moments include Superman carrying a nuclear reactor into space to save Metropolis.
Subtle details such as Clark Kent’s mannerisms and investigative approach noted.
Overall Assessment and Legacy (01:09:46 - 01:14:36)
The miniseries serves as a valuable snapshot of Batman and Superman dynamics post-Crisis and pre-mid-90s crossovers.
While the narrative is considered "vibes-over-story," the series offers essential character moments, iconic imagery, and era-specific continuity.
Conclusion and Promotions (01:14:36 - 01:19:44)
Guests share social media handles and podcast info.
Hosts plug “Trade School” podcast and Certain POV Discord for further comic discussions.
Transcription
00:00
Case
Yeah, and I think Superman is the one who's trying to give the olive branch here. Batman is just so much more closed off the whole time. But they both are warming up to each other over the course of the three issues.
00:14
Kris
Yeah, I mean, Batman in this scene in particular, he's literally leaning on the Batmobile, arms folded, legs crossed in front of him. He's got a real cool guy lean on the car. As Superman vulnerably pulls a gift from behind the cape where he was keeping it. I don't know, was it in the trunks?
00:33
Jmike
Because they had been like that. They had been very active up until that scene. All of a sudden he pulls, hey, I got you something. I was like, wait a second.
00:41
Case
Yeah, I mean, it's possible with super speed. He just ran to the store real quick.
00:46
Kris
He wrapped it, he bought it, he wrapped it. And it's tr.
01:17
Case
Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Aiken and as always, I'm joined by my co host, J. Mike Falson.
01:23
Jmike
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show.
01:26
Case
Welcome back indeed, because today we are digging into a story that I loved from my youth that was the reunification of a really important pairing of superheroes. Because today we are looking at the 1990 miniseries World's Finest. And to have that conversation, we are joined by a podcaster who has his own Batman podcast. We're joined by Chris Ingersoll.
01:49
Kris
Hey, Case. Thanks for having me, brother. Stoked to be here.
01:52
Case
Yeah, Chris, where do people know you from?
01:54
Kris
Folks may have heard my voice on the Batman by the Numbers podcast. It's a once a month podcast in the Pop Break podcast feed. Every single month we find a new way to go deep on the Dark Knight. We've been talking a little Superman this year, so this is a timely podcast for me to come on and join you all. Folks might have heard me on Media lit as well, where I'm the co host with my dear friend Randy Elaine over on Media Lit. We seek to treat every piece of media like great literature. Case, you've done us the great honor of joining us. There's. And sharing some of your, your thoughts. It's, it's a fun time over Media Lip and I'm excited to have some fun with you guys here in the Fortress of Solitude tonight.
02:31
Case
Yeah, I've been so great. Randy has been such a wonderful podcast friend and so I've been so delighted to come on Media lit and I'll. I'm not sure how podcast time is going to work out on this one. I've got an episode booked with y' all soon and I, I don't know who's got the bigger lead time.
02:47
Kris
This is why I fumbled for a minute because I realized that we're so Tommy Wimey in the podcast world. I didn't know like if been on had aired. And what you will be doing with us is sooner I got all lost in my own head.
02:56
Case
Yeah, we're fairly far ahead in our recording. But. But yeah, it's. It's timey. Wiminess of podcast Time is a real thing, folks. It's. It's wild, y'.
03:06
Jmike
All.
03:07
Case
But. But time marches on. And that is one of the reasons why we wanted to talk about this particular story today. We are Talking about the 1990 Dave Gibbons Steve Roode miniseries World's Finest or Superman, Batman, World's Finest. I'm not entirely sure how it's actually, like, printed. It's on the COVID it says Superman, Batman, and then World's Finest. But what have you. So this is obviously a world's finest. And World's finest is the time honored tradition of Batman and Superman teaming up, which is why it's good to have a Batman podcaster here. So I want to set up, before we get into the nitty gritty of this one, the era that this book came out in. So this is 1990.
03:47
Case
So this is coming out on the heels of Crisis on Infinite Earths, and therefore the man of Steel relaunch that John Byrne did in 1986, as well as it's coming on the heels of the Dark Knight Returns, which dramatically changed the dynamic between Batman and Superman. And so coming into 1990, we are looking at a point where we're only three or four years after these big shakeups in the comics world. And for that period of time, there wasn't a good camaraderie between Batman and Superman that had been sort of erased by the crisis. Now they were established as being potential allies of each other. That wasn't an issue. But they weren't buddy buddies and they weren't doing team ups at this point. And so this was the coming out party for like the new dynamic of Batman and Superman as friends. Question mark.
04:44
Case
So they turn this over to Dave Gibbons, who most people know as an artist. He's an artist I rather like. Most people really know him and probably don't think of him as the first person when they think about Watchmen, but he is the artist on Watchmen.
04:55
Kris
Ever heard of it?
04:56
Case
Yeah, exactly. And it's paired up with Steve Rood, who had. He was doing a series called Nexus prior to this, which is like a sci fi series. Yeah. The two of them, along with, you know, comics, is a collaborative effort. So there's a lot of people involved in this all. But they. They spearheaded this story, which was a fresh on the Batman Superman dynamics now that the two characters had been fairly changed from the dynamic that we had known up until that point. So on that note, the. The thing that we like to do on this podcast is we like to have one Mr. J. Mike Falson, describe what actually happens in this comic.
05:34
Jmike
How do I begin. In a world. I'm kidding.
05:41
Kris
I mean, you could go there.
05:43
Jmike
I don't have the voice for that. So this starts off kind of like a. Different retelling of the animated Rose Finest, where the Joker and Lex Luthor are kind of teaming up to take over Metropolis and Gotham at the same time. Like, Lex Luthor is trying to take over some orphanages. And. The Joker is somehow tied in there kind of ishly. They're kind of just working together just because they have to, because Lex wants property. And then Batman and Superman get involved because they piece together what's going on behind the scenes. It culminates with a nuke exploding in space in Metropolis. I'm skipping over a whole bunch because not a lot of stuff happens.
06:33
Case
Yeah, we'll talk about that.
06:34
Jmike
Yeah, it's kind of like they. Like, they. Like I said, it's kind of like a. Like a. An early retelling of. Of World's Finest, the animated version. But, like, not a lot happens. It's. It's some. It's some escapades in Gotham, some escapades in Metropolis. And then it culminates with a huge, like, reveal at an orphanage where they're like, aha, you were the person behind this for this so long. And your. Your dead father was alive here, but he was. He was alive. He faked his death. And then a house fire happens. Not a lot happens after that. And then New Year's Day happens, and all the shenanigans, they're like, the Joker sets off a whole bunch of explosions in Gotham. I'm sorry, Lex sets off a whole bunch of explosions in Gotham.
07:13
Kris
Right.
07:14
Jmike
Joker sets up a mass blackout in Metropolis to get back at each other. And it culminates with Superman having to take a nuclear reactor to space to have it explode instead of blowing up Metropolis. That's kind of like the main gist of the story here. Yeah, yeah. A lot of stuff happens. Lot of stuff doesn't really happen. And there's some cool set pieces. But yeah, there you go.
07:35
Case
Yeah, you hit on the two things that I really wanted to emphasize. One was the vibe is very similar to the world's finest episode of the Batman, Superman animated series from the 90s. I do want to make clear one detail, which is that this comes first. So it's not a retelling in that sense, but it. I think it's in conversation because that's also a period where that's a work that was trying to sort of come to terms with the re evaluated position of Superman and Batman and tried to figure out how do they gel together when they are so different from the sort of like Silver Age kind of version of it. You know, Dick Sprang drawing Batman and Superman playing baseball with Robin as umpire. Like, that's not a thing that these Batman and Superman are going to do.
08:19
Case
That's just a different kind of environment. So I love that you mentioned that and I love that you mentioned the decompression of this story. This story is decompressed as fuck. We just talked about Naomi on this podcast, which is a. Brian Michael Bendis joined and I ranted about decompression in storytelling. But that's happening here. It's not. It's not as bad.
08:40
Jmike
It's not as bad, but it's not. It's not great.
08:43
Case
Well, and I would say that decompression. So like, I. I have ranted about story decompression plenty of times. And Chris, what I mean by that is just taking a story that could have been told in one issue and yeah, spreading it out to six. And I don't think that this is the worst offender here. And I think that this is an example where it does some things really well, which is it has some really nice moments. Most of the things I remembered about the series were from things that honestly would have been cut if this was trying to do a tighter story.
09:11
Jmike
Yeah.
09:12
Case
That said, it is an offender of that. And. When we get into sort of things that we didn't love as much, like that is going to be a point that I bring up because the story is fairly. Like when you said shenanigans. I think that was a really good description for the Luther and Joker stuff in this movie or in this movie.
09:33
Jmike
But I'm like, there's a lot that. There's a lot that goes on, but 50 of it doesn't matter. Like it's little bits with the kids, like sneaking around and seeing stuff, but that doesn't really go anywhere. And then there's the parts where. Like, afterwards, there's, like, the blackout and stuff that happens in Metropolis. They're like, yeah, this is. People are like. They said there's rights out in the streets and everything. I was like, why?
09:59
Kris
Well, there's, like, these, like, pieces of ideas within the story. Almost as if, like, you could imagine a separate, like, you know, when they do crossovers. And there will be the side issues that explore a different facet of the crossover event a little bit more deeply, something that the main story doesn't quite have time for. It feels like those kids that were hearing a ghost up in the attic, they're a part of their own miniseries side story that, like, if you were reading that side issue along with this main story, you'd find out more about those kids and what they were up to and why that matters.
10:27
Jmike
Yeah.
10:28
Kris
In a bigger way here. Lots of those little, like, ideas that were thrown into this but never fully fleshed out. Never really quite woven into the whole tapestry as solidly as they could have been.
10:38
Jmike
Honestly, I feel like if they had taken that entire part out with the kids and just left, like, the. The. When they first get to the orphanage the first time for the big gala event, whatever. And the guy plays, like, his last. His final words, will and testimony about the orphanage. If you kept that and helped the reveal that he was still alive at the end and cut out the parts of the kids, I felt like it would have, like, a much deeper impact.
11:02
Kris
Yeah. Or just emphasize the kids more because, like, the device is interesting. Like, you've got these kids. You're wondering, why do we keep going back to them? I think there's a ghost in the attic. There's, like, something to that. It's a thread you want to pull on, and it does pay off. There was somebody in the attic, but the two kids aren't specific enough. Like, what this means to them. There was something interesting happening. One of the issues where they're both fans of Batman and Superman separately, and they have different opinions. None of that ever really gets played with in a way that makes it super interesting, Satisfying.
11:28
Case
Yeah. I think they're introduced, and they're interesting when they're introduced, and I think that they run out of steam by the end of the story.
11:34
Kris
Yeah.
11:35
Case
Before we go too deep, Chris, I blindsided you with this book. What are your opinion. Like, what are your first reactions to seeing it?
11:42
Kris
So, first and foremost, I just really enjoyed the read the exploration of the Batman, Superman, Dynamic is a ton of fun for me. When I was being educated into comics by my dear friend Matt Chang Madden, some of the first comics he fed me were, like, hush. An iconic Superman element to that story. The Dark Knight Returns. All these, like, great stories that Batman, Superman, Public Enemies, these great stories that help you understand these two in comparison to one another, how they complement and how they contrast. Right. And so this book was like a welcome home to me, especially because I'm such a fan of that Public Enemies comic book which does this wonderful parallelism. In the beginning, literal parallel panels of Batman and Superman in that book. It's their internal monologues happening that show the comparisons and the huge contrast between them.
12:31
Kris
This book does it without words. It's in the very first issue, they have these parallel. First you get Batman's action sequence and then you get Superman's action sequence. There's no words. They both culminate in a single word. Joker. Luther.
12:44
Jmike
Yeah, yeah.
12:45
Kris
You know, they're what. Drawn beautifully in parallel. And so that was also familiar to me. I really enjoyed the activity of this book. There was something else this book did that I thought was, like, elevated it in a significant way. And it didn't. It didn't quite carry all the way through. But for the flashbacks that belong to Monks. Reverend Monks, Maryland. He's both a reverend and a doctor.
13:09
Case
Yep.
13:10
Kris
Amazing guy. It's in this different art style altogether. It's almost like a watercolor painting, those flashbacks. And it really elevates.
13:18
Jmike
Yeah.
13:18
Case
It's coloring directly on the pencils, which is what gives that effect.
13:23
Kris
Just wonderful. And when. When the book first opens, it's easy to believe it's a Batman flashback that you see. Like, super familiar. Right. It's like a. It's a funeral setting. It's a sad kid in a cemetery. And I assumed it was Batman to begin with, so just the fact that I did, too.
13:37
Case
Yeah.
13:38
Kris
Because. Because that was subverted. This book kind of had me pretty quickly. I was very interested in what it had to say.
13:44
Jmike
Yeah.
13:44
Case
Yeah. I mean. I think that the book is doing a lot of very interesting things, particularly for the time capsule and where it comes out. But it is also very clear that Dave Gibbons, who, at least according to the introduction he writes at the beginning of the trade paperback, this was the first work he was doing for DC as a writer. And that's incredible when you think about that. But he is an artist first, and he clearly provided a script that gave Steve Rood, the artist on the book, a wonderful landscape to draw the Two page tableaus of like Gotham and Metropolis. When he's introducing those worlds to like, to the book. Like, look at that. Like, that's just a gorgeous shot setting up the city and there's such great parallelism between it. Like there's doves in Metropolis, there's crows or ravens in Gotham.
14:42
Case
You know, just a wonderful work there. And then we get such wonderful use of art and visual storytelling to set up all these differences between Batman and Superman throughout the whole book. And it just continues throughout that. You can really see that like this is a very visual piece. There's a, it's a text heavy work, but. But it's still a very visual focus. Kind of, kind of comic.
15:09
Kris
Oh, very much like I said, I think those tableaus, there are no words. The first several pages of these comics you get like the location label, Gotham City, a location label for Metropolis, but hardly any words for the first several pages of this first book, which is really satisfying.
15:26
Case
Now what about. Okay, so I like the orphanage concept as midway as a space between Gotham and Metropolis. I thought that was a cute sort of detail there. The orphanage was a good convention for why people from both cities would sort of show up together. You know, as far as like, well, like I get why Superman cares about an orphanage and I get why Batman cares about an orphanage for different reasons. But you know, nice to set up that reminders that they're both orphans. I don't get why Luthor, even as an orphan, that they remind us that he is. Because like the theme of being an orphan is a really big one in this book. But man, the, the plots in this one are just excuses for us to have like really good scenes. Like, it's like.
16:16
Case
Like Lois and Alfred together is a scene that I love. Like, it's fantastic. But it's like, why is it there? The story required it.
16:25
Kris
Yeah, the story is creating all kinds of excuses to create those fun pairings though. Like, how many social gatherings do Perry White and Jim Gordon actually attend together?
16:35
Case
Right.
16:36
Kris
I'm not, I'm not sure. But it was delightful every time they were on the page together in these books.
16:41
Case
Yeah, it was very nice setting up the dynamic. Now it took me a while to determine whether or not Batman and Superman knew who each other were.
16:49
Jmike
Yeah.
16:51
Case
Which I thought was actually very well handled. Like, they're extremely subtle for the first two issues. It's only in the third issue where they like fully come out and say, like, oh, you're Superman and you're Batman. The. The majority of their interactions are.
17:03
Jmike
Well, I mean it kind of tips you off. They're calling each other by the first name, where they're at the gala, like, oh, hello Bruce, hello Clark, blah, blah. And they kind of like stare at each other and like walk away. So. Oh, they kind of. They know who each other are, but they don't like each other very much. Yeah.
17:19
Kris
And they're already doing like little unsubtle hints at their differences. Their one's predilection for the night, the other's predisposition to be sunny sunshine and.
17:28
Jmike
Yeah.
17:29
Kris
And optimism in that first conversation. So.
17:32
Case
Yeah. And Clark in the white tuxedo and Bruce in the black tuxedo.
17:35
Kris
Yeah, yeah.
17:37
Case
I like someone pointed out that Bruce is in a much more like modern design for his outfit and Clark is in a much more old fashioned one and is also like a baggier design for his. And. And these are like details to sort of like help give like character elements all throughout.
17:52
Kris
You see that. I think in general I was really taken with the way both Superman and Batman are rendered both in and out of their costumes in these books. What a classic look. Batman almost has a. They both, I guess, almost have a Darwin Cooke kind of vibe to them.
18:04
Case
Oh, for sure. Brood in the introduction that he does in the trade paperback talks about how he very much wanted to ape the Siegel and Shuster and the Max Fleischer era for Superman specifically and really wanted to do that Detective comics like first appearance of Batman look and editorial shit canned the first appearance of Batman look and made him look more modern. But the Superman one rude didn't budge on and that's why he has this very Fleischer kind of design to him.
18:31
Kris
Speaking of character designs, I want to talk about the villains really quick in that regard since we're there. When I first saw Joker, he was like pure killing joke in his aesthetic and it immediately disturbed me. It's just unsettling that version of a Joker and how attached it is to that story. You do see a wheelchair bound Barbara Gordon helping.
18:51
Case
Yeah, I wanted to bring that up too. This is such a time capsule for when it came out. Barbara Gordon is newly crippled and so they need to focus on that as a character detail for her. Like I said, we've got all the weird elements. It's surprising that the Joker is not taken more seriously as a result.
19:08
Jmike
Yeah.
19:09
Case
In this like he gets away with a few things that he shouldn't. It's like, where. Where he wasn't directly caught doing a crime and is able to, like, walk away. And that sort of surprises me a couple of times.
19:21
Kris
Yeah, he gets away with just kind of zany prankster villain in this more so than truly deadly. I mean, it sets the tone that way. Batman takes on that first guy who, like, eats a poison joker card to kill himself rather than being taken. And it feels like a very deadly version of the Joker. But then that's not the Joker we end up spending a lot of time with. But anywho, that character design itself just immediately, like, chilled my blood when he came up from underneath the covers. But then I wanted to ask you to. Smart comic book guys, Lex Luthor has a robot hand. A robot I didn't know about.
19:53
Case
This, again, is part of the exact snapshot of when this comic came out. So this is in the period. Between man of Steel, which introduced Superman and Lex Luthor as the businessman Lex and the rotund Lex Luthor, a bit more of like, instead of a svelte mad scientist type. He's. He's got some girth to him.
20:14
Kris
Well fed.
20:16
Case
Well fed is a good descriptor for it. And it comes before the death and return era of Superman, where at that point, Lex Luthor has faked his own death and placed his brain inside his cloned self, one that has a full head of hair. So this is actually happening post Lex Luthor getting the kryptonite ring, which he took by carving a piece of it out of Metallo's heart in Superman 1. Superman 1 is the appearance of Metallo. I forget exactly when he makes the ring. It's like the next issue after that. But then that ring gives him cancer, and the first thing he loses is his hand. Oh, so this is in that window of time between Lex Luthor getting cancer, losing his hand, but before he fakes his death.
20:59
Kris
Interesting. Powered prosthetics will become a part of his legacy. You know, he'll outfit many a bodyguard in the future with a cannon for an arm. Yeah, I'm not surprised he did. He didn't skim for himself. That his hand isn't just a hand. It's crushes that explosive the Joker has for him.
21:15
Case
Yeah, it. Like, when I saw the hand, I was like, oh, right. This is when this comic came out. It was such a moment. Just wild on that one. Let's talk about Lex for a minute there. So I enjoy a lot of the way they handle him. Like, this is a good balance of businessman Lex with some criminal tendencies like he feels very much like a mob boss at a lot of points.
21:43
Jmike
Yeah.
21:43
Case
Which is of course a criticism of the day as well. But you know, in terms of like, who's the big threat? Like Luthor is the big threat in this book. Like ultimately Joker has the biggest play in that he sets off the nuclear reactor to go off. But, but prior to that, Luther's the heavy hitter in terms of like the villain kind of scenario. Like Batman has like real trouble dealing with him. And that's why they do the switcheroo, which is cute. Like the whole setup for the comic is that. Luther and Joker switch places first and then Batman and Superman switch places and then the last part is Luther and Joker going up against each other.
22:21
Kris
Yeah.
22:22
Case
As far as the three act structure goes. But yeah, like Luthor is good and menacing and he's got, he's doing like real estate deals which again, like we're in the post Superman the movie kind of era. So there's like the real estate broker kind of part of the character in there. Yeah, like I, he. He is legitimately villainous in this without being the cackling mad scientist. And that's a fun difference. Again, this is a book that's tackling with its own legacy, like with its place in the new continuity that they were kind of working on. And I think you can see where areas where it's uncomfortable for them, like Dave Gibbons coming from a Silver Age tradition or you know, coming from a tradition of pre crisis comics. Like he did whatever happens to the man or not a.
23:08
Case
No, sorry, not whatever happened to the man of tomorrow. For the man who has everything. The two that people always mix up. The Alan Moore he did for the man who has everything, which is a classic Batman Robin, Superman team up kind of thing. Like yeah, it's got the weird black mercy kind of element in there, but it, the. The dynamic between Batman and Superman is very much like what we. Well, what we would expect of them. And there are moments in this book where there's just this desire to be back into that sort of like older kind of comfort zone for these characters. And I think that's why Joker at times feels more like the zany kind of I can get away with shit kind of thing that. The Joker who crippled Barbara Gordon is not going to be the one to.
23:53
Case
You're not going to let him get away. Like when it's his henchmen that set off a bunch of bombs and then escape into a sewer and then he's just there. Superman wouldn't have just let him go. It's just sort of a weird moment there. But they are also leaning on the era that this came from for Superman. And this is the Burn era. Superman and that Burn era. Superman is very much a cop.
24:14
Kris
Yes. They say it at one point in the book. Right. You're still relying on truth, justice in the American way. Batman's kind of challenging that he doesn't think that works. And you do see that strain.
24:27
Case
Yeah. Like Superman says, we don't have evidence, and Batman says evidence and then hits him with the truth, justice, the American way bit. And that's. Yeah, that's such a weird dichotomy for the characters then, because we're having such different conversations about the characters now. Like they're. We. Like, this is an era where. I mean, this is post Reagan. So an era where there's a lot. A lot of rah, like, yay, America. And respect authority going on here in a way that, like, modern Superman is a much more. I don't want to say divisive figure, but a much more antagonistic figure to authority structures.
25:04
Kris
Yeah, yeah. He wants you to believe he stands for real morality, not just for authority, which is so corruptible. Right. I think have a Superman who's much more interesting today because he has detached himself from those more formal authorities and said, no, right is right. And sometimes the guys who say they are doing right do wrong. And I can't support them in that. I think it's interesting because today Superman, I think, is much more the fireman after the most recent film. That's a lot of what I've been hearing. He's out there saving people, like a firefighter. Right. Squirrels and. And citizens. He's as concerned about saving the people in danger as he is with taking down the bad guy. Whereas Batman, for anybody who liked the Blue Beetle movie, I think there were five of us.
25:45
Case
I'm one of the five.
25:46
Kris
I'm one of the five dot yeah.
25:49
Case
Three of us are on this call. We just need to find the other two. And then we unlock the power of the scarab.
25:56
Kris
Our powers combined. Yeah, he's the. He catches the bad rap. Right. Of being the authoritarian in the modern day, of being the fascist in the modern day. Batman does. So they've certainly flip flopped today and how we talk about those characters.
26:10
Case
Yeah, it's. I mean, there. There's always going to be the fundamental factor of superheroes, which is that they are extrajudicial forces operating in some cases with powers and abilities far beyond mortal man. That how we reckon. Reckon with them. And. And morality is always going to be kind of complicated. Because while it's not a huge deal for a person to run into a burning building and save them or even to stop a mugger, it becomes a different story when we talk about a person who's on patrol and is doing these sort of like cop kind of tendencies without actually being a licensed law enforcement. And so there's lots of stories where Superman and Batman have been deputized by the police so that they are effectively just. Just cops.
26:55
Case
You know, that's a way that they get around it for like the 66 Batman show, like that. It, you know, they. They directly go right up against it and it's just like, no, they're. They're working for the police. That's totally fine. As opposed to just sort of like a. A hush kind of agreement with.
27:11
Kris
Jim Gordon or Jim Gordon just walking him into a crime scene. Much to the chagrin of every other officer there, a la the Batman.
27:18
Jmike
Right?
27:19
Kris
Yeah. Circling back to Luther a bit, I. I did like the way in which his type of villainy was frustrating for Batman, prompting that switch. Right. It wasn't because he's physically formidable. Batman's used to a villain who comes right at you and owns their villainy, like the Joker, a villain that he can just punch in the face and nobody will look sideways at him. And Luthor is a villain with a public Persona of being good. And so when you have that. Have that little industrial destruction moment, it's like a construction robot of some kind. It goes haywire and it's destroying something. And Batman goes in and he's. He blows it up unnecessarily ultimately, because Luther sneaks in right at the last minute, kinds of turns it off with the remote control, makes himself look great, makes Batman look bad.
28:05
Kris
And that is not something Batman is used to dealing with. It was really interesting to see Luther in his sort of underhanded villainy in this because he has the public Persona really frustrate Batman. You don't see Joker do so similarly to Superman. We don't get to appreciate really how Joker is kind of a different league of villain that Superman isn't quite prepared for. But we do see it with. With Batman and Luther.
28:28
Case
Yeah, that's exactly right. Like Luthor. And that gets back to like, Luthor is the more effective villain in this whole piece, which is kind of frustrating. But like, also like, the Joker is everyone's favorite. So like I'm kind of glad to see a story where, like, he's not.
28:41
Kris
Yeah, well, like, they tied Luther to the main. The main plot. Like, whatever's happening with the orphanage and monks and the sketchy real estate deal, like, they tied Luther directly to that. Whereas Joker seems to really just be in to the idea of a vacation in Metropolis and going causing as much mischief as he can. He doesn't really have a driven joke or plot in this. And maybe that's. Maybe that's for the best because we either have to, like, really nerf him, or this is a different story altogether. If you have a true Joker plot happening, the kinds of lives that are in danger, what that would mean in Metropolis, what that would mean for Superman and the folks that he loves, It's a different kind of story that doesn't have room for the orphanage stuff.
29:20
Kris
So I guess it makes sense to me that there weren't any poison fish this time around.
29:25
Jmike
Right.
29:27
Case
I mean, I just think that this Joker hadn't fully evolved into the Joker that we know today. You know, like, while we did have the Killing Joke and while we did have the Dark Knight Returns, I just think that the reputation for the character hadn't fully cemented, at least in the editorial mind. That it's like, no, this is straight up a. Just a killer all the time.
29:48
Kris
Yeah. He's kind of more of just like a. A standard criminal thief, mob boss himself in this. He. He acts goofy, but the. The unbridled chaos that we know of the Joker today is. Is not there. We know. We find out in this that he owns multiple properties in Gotham that he runs as sort of slum houses.
30:07
Case
Yeah. And just able to, like, it's in his name, right?
30:11
Jmike
Or.
30:11
Kris
Yeah.
30:12
Case
Or it's in the name of Joker.
30:13
Jmike
Yeah.
30:16
Case
Which is wild. This gets back into my whole, like, at when Superman first crosses paths with the Joker in this whole comic. It should have just been done. Which is the only thing that drives me insane about this entire book. Because it's like, oh, he doesn't arrest the Joker because he doesn't have evidence at that moment that the Joker's directly responsible for the clown themed bombing that just happened.
30:39
Kris
Oh, God.
30:40
Case
I mean, it's. It's cute and all. And it's like, nice to have a scene with. With Joker and Jimmy Olsen, which is like, how often are you gonna see that? But it just doesn't.
30:48
Jmike
It.
30:50
Case
Luthor makes sense that he can evade Batman because he's protected, he's got people with him, he's got money he's got guards. He's like. He's got a reputation going for him. Joker just. It's just weird.
31:01
Jmike
I did.
31:02
Kris
I did forget about Joker successfully pying Superman in the face.
31:05
Jmike
Yeah, that was.
31:06
Case
That was cute. Like, that part's good.
31:08
Kris
And Superman later complain about, like, feeling laughed at. Feeling like he, like, kind of had lost the respect of the town in that moment because everybody was laughing at him. It's. It's almost there.
31:18
Case
It's just weird that Joker shows up right there. Like, if he had also just not been there, like, then that would have been fine. It's just that, like, Joker's even present for the whole sequence.
31:27
Kris
Like, in his. In his vacation garb.
31:30
Jmike
Yes.
31:30
Case
Let's talk about Lois and Bruce for a minute there, because I enjoy their. Their little tete a tet that they have going. Lois is not impressed with. With Bruce, even though he's doing his best to hit on her. Yeah.
31:44
Jmike
Because I think it started at the. The. The. The. The gala event where he kind of blew her off. And she was like, oh, screw you too, then. And after that, they really didn't talk or interact very kindly to each other.
31:58
Kris
Yeah. Until he stands up to Luther at the restaurant. Yeah. He's trying to. He's trying to wind down lower. She's still giving him the cold shoulder. But then he kind of shows his true colors probably more than he means to as Bruce Wayne when he stands up to Luther a bit. And now she's a little bit more interested in hearing what he has to say. She's a little more taken with him. I. I liked this. I liked this Lois, who's suspicious of the Bruce Wayne character more so than in the. The Batman Superman movie, world's finest in 97, where he steps off the plane and she pretty quickly goes to pieces for the playboy Bruce Wayne.
32:33
Jmike
Also, did she know that Clark was Superman?
32:36
Case
Not at this point.
32:37
Jmike
Okay. Because, like, there was, like, that whole interaction between Clark and Lois at the Daily Planet when they were talking about something about Luthor. And he was like, be right back. And she's like, cool, see you later, Clark. And I was like, wait. Like, does she know or does she not know?
32:52
Kris
I don't know.
32:52
Jmike
That was interesting interaction.
32:54
Case
I'm gonna say 95% certain that she doesn't know at this point in the story. I think it's still a couple more years before the engagement. That. And that's where he reveals. Or just before the engagement, he reveals who. His identity. Obviously, it's before death of Superman, which is 93. So in the. It's weird talking about these comics sometimes for me because some of these are like. This felt like ancient history when I first read it because it was 1990 and I was six when this one came out. So I didn't read this live. I read it in trade in high school versus comics that I was reading which only came out like two or three years later where like, oh, well, that was my active history. So it's.
33:33
Case
It sometimes is weird for me breaking my brain in terms of like, oh, time actually is very small. Like it's only been a couple of years. Like, again, the point that this is only four years after Crisis on Infinite Earths is wild to me because it feels like it's been forever, but it's only a small window of time in comic books.
33:53
Kris
It's so much happens, so much changes. Right?
33:57
Case
Yeah. Both Batman and Superman have four books going at this point.
34:00
Kris
Crazy.
34:00
Case
Or at least three at the moment that this comes out. And four very shortly after. I don't remember when Superman, the Man of Steel launches. And I don't remember. I don't remember all the Batman books from the 90s. They all have like. And there's one that's like a flashback book, like the tale or I forget.
34:19
Kris
A lot of Batman adjacent books like Gotham Central and all kinds of. Just Batman and Gotham centric books.
34:28
Case
Yeah. So. It is weird for me looking at it sometimes from just a. Like, oh God, like, this wasn't that much time. But again, like you said, so much happens in comics like year to year that it feels like monumental. J Mike, as a sneak preview for when we talk about the next World's Finest series that comes out, which will be having that conversation in a few weeks. POD or recording time. I have no idea how this is all going to stack up in terms of when episodes drop. But we talk about the 1999 World's Finest Series, and that is an issue by issue. Each story takes place at a different year in the timeline of the DCU that was existing at the time.
35:07
Case
So like, that's going to get even weirder when we start talking about like, well, what the fuck was happening at this year?
35:13
Kris
Yeah.
35:16
Jmike
Awesome.
35:17
Case
But circling back to Lois and Bruce, I liked that interaction where Bruce stands up to Lex and what's really nice is prior to that, she won't let him pour her a glass of wine.
35:27
Kris
That's right.
35:28
Case
And she won't call him Bruce. And she moves her hand so he can pour the glass and then toasts to him and calls him Bruce. And that's such a good detail right there.
35:38
Kris
Excellent detail. It's subtle. That's the kind of character work that you want in a decompressed story like this. If we're gonna spend the time. Right. Let's have these nice, intimate character moments where there's some subtext that can play out over the course of many panels.
35:52
Case
Yeah. Wonderful stuff there. We touched on the Lois Alfred relationship already. I very much like that she's encouraging him to not be on work mode all the time, which is really nice. And comes back around when Luther tries to boss Alfred around and he's like, I'm sorry, sir, it's my night off.
36:08
Kris
Yeah, that was one thing that threw me a little bit. And I was surprised by, again, kind of where our characters actually are in their histories together, because I am. I'm ready for a version of Lois, who knows all of Clark's secrets and has an intimate relationship with him and therefore knows Bruce's secrets and has a fairly close relationship with Bruce and his world as well. And so this very familiar Lois and Alfred dynamic, where there seems to be, like, an affection between the two of them, a known affection, was familiar to me. I was shocked to think that they may have been strangers at this gala or, you know, have interacted once or twice before. Not have the. The weight of history that I'm used to because it was such a fun and familiar dynamic between them.
36:53
Case
Yeah.
36:54
Kris
The.
36:55
Case
The Gotham and the. The Metropolis cast seem very buddy. Buddy in a way.
37:00
Kris
Very chubby.
37:00
Case
To the point where when we see Superman at Christmas time, I. I believe Jim Gordon is in the shot with him.
37:06
Kris
He's. Dude, he is. I had. I pored over that panel to make sure that they're making enough intentional choices. Is the mustache, the cigar in the hand? I was like, that. That is Jim Gordon. Why is he there? I don't know.
37:17
Jmike
Yeah.
37:18
Kris
Let's see.
37:18
Case
I'm just looking at the shot. Yep. Yeah. And you got Barbara in the background there. So you also have some of the kids. So I. I guess, might be at the orphanage.
37:28
Kris
Yeah. The orphans are there. It may. It may in fact, be at the orphanage. Yeah.
37:31
Case
But it does seem like they're all, like, really? It makes me think of crossovers. Like the Christmas special that they did where, like, Sesame street meets the Muppets.
37:43
Jmike
Yeah.
37:43
Case
Where it's just like, of course they all know each other. Like. Yeah, it's fine. Like, we. We all know them, so of course they. They know each other. Like, we know their inner secrets.
37:51
Kris
They have most of the same people's hands up their backs, you know?
37:54
Jmike
Exactly.
37:57
Kris
Yeah. But I think I already mentioned it. The Jim Gordon, Perry White one for me especially because professionally they have nothing in common. But we've paired them because they're both like the sort of older mentor partner to our heroes.
38:08
Case
Yeah.
38:08
Kris
That makes no sense that the police commissioner of Gotham would have any kind of buddy relationship with the lead editor of the big paper in Metropolis.
38:17
Case
Yeah, it would make sense if they were in the same city to a degree.
38:21
Kris
Sure.
38:22
Case
You know, like he used to work the crime beat now and now he's the editor, but like he, you know, still has his police contacts or something.
38:30
Kris
Yeah. Former B cop, former writer, now police commissioner, now editor. Sure.
38:36
Case
I mean, it makes sense that they'd be cordial with each other, but it's surprising like how. How much everyone is just like, yeah, buddy in this.
38:43
Jmike
Well, I think like Perry said that he grew up with.
38:46
Case
With Lex. Yeah, that. That's another thing about this window of time. So this is the period where instead of Lex being a contemporary of Superman, he's a contemporary of Perry, he's older. And so they grew up together in suicide slums. And they. They heavily imply in this that Lex, the way that he got to his fortune was by killing his parents.
39:07
Kris
Yes.
39:10
Jmike
Okay. I was the only person who heard that. Cool. Okay, cool.
39:13
Kris
No, that. That could have been really interesting for me. I thought that they were going to play with that more because, I mean, that's a key part of the Tommy Elliot Hush storyline. And the contrast between Hush and Batman. Right. That Tommy orchestrated his parents death in order to inherit the wealth, whereas parents were ripped away from Bruce. I thought were going to have some commentary on that here. Not quite. It's certainly something that is interesting to explore. The idea of Batman having to confront somebody who would willingly kill their own parents in order to make themselves an orphan and reap the benefits.
39:47
Case
Yeah. The themes of orphanages and orphans are a big part of this. I keep wanting to say movie because it's so visual. I don't man my brain. This comic is heavily. Like, obviously the orphanage is the. The main set piece for the whole thing. And the fact that we are going to remind ourselves that the two main characters are both orphans and the main villain is an orphan and the villain of the story is kind of an orphan. Like was set up as an orphan. Then it's like, oh, actually it's his dad. Or however that whole thing with monks shakes out. Like that theme is there. I don't know if it ties it together very well.
40:21
Case
I think that this sets up a lot of cool ideas and has a lot of really good scenes, but like I said, kind of peters out by the end where it just becomes like the Luthor vs. Joker shit show where Batman and Superman are kind of just trying to clean things up.
40:37
Kris
Yeah. If you were going to adapt this into a movie, say, you'd have to do a lot of work to fill out that core story and make it say something rather than just sort of referring to these various themes. You'd have to do some work to pick one and really flesh it out.
40:53
Case
Yeah. In screenwriting terms, this is third act troubles.
40:57
Jmike
Yeah.
40:58
Case
Which is very much the case because honestly, once we kind of resolve the orphanage story, which happens at the end of the second issue, the third issue feels like it's pure falling action.
41:09
Kris
Oh, totally. I had to double check that there was a third issue. The ways in which the second issue feels like it's wrapping up that. That main conflict and it's doing the big reveal of Monks. And I was unsure where we would go from there. And sure enough, it was now just. I like the. The turn for the villains to start in on each other now that whole thing is settled and Lex is like, easy to move on from that. It's no. No skin off his back what he's dealing with there. But he. Now he wants some revenge on the Joker. That is. That is fun.
41:40
Case
Yeah.
41:41
Kris
One other contrast I wanted to just quickly explore since we're talking about allies we're so used to. I suppose I'm used to some facet of the GCPD functioning as an ally for Batman or at least looking the other way at night as he does what he has to do. It was notable. Every panel of Batman operating in the daylight in Metropolis and having to confront Metropolis pd having to remind him of, like, we're not just going to let you do this thing that you do being a vigilante in our streets. Again, they didn't quite explore it to the point where they become a problem for Batman. But it is a fun little interesting contrast each time that it happens in the book to remind you that, oh yeah, Metropolis isn't Gotham. These aren't his same old allies.
42:22
Case
Yeah. And I wonder how. How new of a concept some of that is. Like they. They really hit home that Batman's not supposed to come out during daytime in this book and he ultimately has to. But that is a. Like, I don't know when that first happened for Batman. Like, because obviously we all know the 66 Batman, and we know that, like, he had plenty of stories where he has daytime adventures. And so. Was that the Denny o' Neill period? When did they start saying Batman only comes out at night? And I'm not entirely sure.
42:53
Kris
I'm really sticking to it. Right.
42:54
Case
Yeah. Maybe Batman year one. Frankly, if I'm going to say year.
42:59
Kris
One comes right after crisis. Right.
43:01
Case
Yeah. And that's the one where he's like, no, I can't go in the Batmobile at the end of the story because it's daytime. So maybe that sort of helped set the stakes for Batman being a creature. Not just a creature of the night, but being specifically. I don't work during the daytime because everyone can see that I'm a goofy guy in a suit.
43:20
Kris
Right. The whole fear and the shadows thing doesn't work as well during the daylight. The Batmobile is sweet in this book. Oh, it looked great.
43:33
Case
So there's one detail I keep coming back to. Well, okay, you know what? I'm gonna talk about the scene that I remembered the best before we go into just sort of minutiae that I enjoy. And that is the Christmas moment between Batman and Superman where Superman gives him a gift.
43:46
Kris
Yeah.
43:49
Case
It's such a good scene. It's so. It's such a. Like, Clark is trying to be so nice here, and he has no idea what the, like, the weight of the gift that he is giving in the form of. He's giving the Zorro movie that Batman was at when his parents died.
44:05
Jmike
Yeah, I've.
44:06
Kris
I. Yes, I have seen it. Batman says. Yeah, I like that. It was like, you can see the budding friendship. Right. It is helping in this 13 issue miniseries. Helping to take these two from. I suppose we could be allies. Like, you know, this is happening. I might check in with that guy from Metropolis to, like, they imply, maybe they'll spend Christmas together. Right. I think Superman says that he's spending the night with. He's spending Christmas with friends. Oh, sorry. Friends in Metropolis. Meaning to say, like, not that you're not a friend. I just, I. I have friends in Metropolis that I'm spending the night with. That. That was lovely that the book wanted to spend that time. To really say somehow in this process, they've built up both the respect and maybe even a little liking for each other.
44:53
Case
Yeah. And I think Superman is the one who's like, trying to. To give the olive branch here. Batman is just so much more closed off the whole time, but they both are warming up to each other over the course of the three issues.
45:08
Kris
Yeah, I mean, Batman in this scene in particular, he's literally leaning on the Batmobile, arms folded, legs crossed in front of him. He's just got a real cool guy lean on the car as Superman vulnerably pulls a gift from behind the cape where he was keeping it. I don't know. Was it in the trunk?
45:27
Jmike
Because they had been like that. They had been very active up until that scene. All of a sudden, he pulls, hey, I got you something. I was like, wait a second.
45:34
Case
Yeah, I mean, it's possible with super speed. He just ran to the store real quick.
45:39
Kris
He wrapped it. He bought it. He wrapped it. And that's true.
45:44
Case
So the next thing I want to bring up is just a piece of minutiae that I can't stop thinking about, which is. So one thing is that this book loves having parallel shots between Batman and Superman throughout the entire book. Like, we talked about how Gotham and Metropolis are introduced in, like, almost identical tableaus, just with, like, the key details being switched out. But when the Luthor Joker fight starts at the beginning of issue three and the power goes out, so there's a bunch of fires that happen, and Batman is seeing it, or Bruce is seeing it out the window. And so we've got fire, like, through the glass on his face. And then Superman just snaps his fingers. And because he's got diamond hard skin, it lights up the room.
46:26
Kris
Yes.
46:28
Case
It's such a crazy moment there because you can kind of see that everyone's like, what's. What the. Was that light in the shot?
46:36
Kris
It's so cool. What a fun little nod to his powers. Like those writing Superman could be so fun. Like, there's some writers who really get into it and make the most of questioning what. What could you do if you were the man of Steel? And this is a fun little detail. I also like that in these panels, they choose to do that thing furthering the parallelism. Bruce utters Luther and Clark utters Joker.
47:02
Case
Which is an inverse of the earlier in issue one.
47:06
Kris
Exactly. Right. We'll get. We'll get more of that. Those callbacks. Right. I think at the very end, we get the opposite of their banter from the opening gala, where Clark keeps insisting some sort of a good morning type of salutation, whereas Bruce keeps giving a good evening type of hello. And then at the very end, it's the opposite. Batman says to Superman, good morning. He says, good night, Batman. It's great. Great stuff. Just great stuff.
47:34
Case
Yeah. And the fact that this book has so much great stuff in it is. Makes it hard for me to like, then be like, oh, but then the actual story isn't very much because the orphanage story doesn't really add up very well.
47:45
Jmike
Yeah, that's a fun story.
47:48
Kris
No, no one's ever really in danger. Like, honestly, I don't know what.
47:51
Case
The Joker doesn't kill anyone. The only person that dies because of Joker is his henchman at the beginning.
47:56
Kris
Right. Yes. The guy who takes the poison.
47:58
Case
Now, it's not for lack of trying, but it's the goddamn Joker.
48:01
Jmike
Well. I mean, there is that security guard who was guarding like the propane tanks who blows up as Batman gets there because somebody sabotages it. But it's not because the Joker. Ish.
48:15
Kris
Yeah, it's like a Joker ploy, but we don't see. Yeah, it's not a Joker killing.
48:18
Case
Yeah. I just mean that like we said, this is a very different Joker from what we would sort of come to understand is the joker in the 90s going into the 2000s.
48:28
Kris
It.
48:30
Case
And this Luthor has a very small potatoes kind of perspective in terms of crimes. Like, yeah, he's much more like, he's got all the real estate stuff going and he's got, you know, he's got a Luthor robot thing or machine or whatever that happens at the start of issue one. Not start, but middle of issue one. But his crimes are relatively small scale as well. Like, it's not the grandiose schemes that we could see from Lex Luthor at times. And Joker is literally just on vacation. He's just fucking around for the sake of it. And because he pisses off Luthor and Luthor kind of pisses him off just by their very nature. Like, they get into a little bit of a fight, but like, that has nothing to do with the orphanage.
49:11
Case
And like we said, the orphanage plot ends at the end of issue two, which doesn't make any goddamn sense because.
49:18
Jmike
Like, the most we get that is that we learned that they've both been buying a property and then Luthor has been going around like, trying to buy people's property from them. But that's kind of it.
49:32
Kris
Yeah, we get. We're told he sort of wants to own a bunch of Gotham property. He's going to bring his operations to Gotham, establish his business foothold and therefore his criminal empire there. But that never really bears any kind of nothing.
49:45
Jmike
It doesn't go anywhere. No.
49:49
Case
And it's a shame because, like, I, I do have that same sort of warm Vibe when I look at this comic that I do that I have from the Batman Superman Animated Series crossover, where it feels like, oh yeah, this is a good. Not first meeting between the characters, but like first time they're really working together between the characters. And. And you feel like that a lot of effort was put into taking the different casts and bringing them together and making it a true crossover, not just a team up between the two characters.
50:18
Kris
Right, right.
50:20
Jmike
I kind of kept thinking like there had to be a reason that he was buying up all those properties. Like he found out there was something underneath Gotham, that Gotham property. Or like he was just trying to get rid of the orphanage because he hated it there. Or like there was something else going on. So I kept waiting for like the big like a shoe to drop to like let us know what's gonna happen. And then nothing.
50:42
Kris
Yeah. It really all seemed to be just so he could have like a more convenient way to between both cities. Like the Midway.
50:48
Jmike
Yeah.
50:49
Kris
Orphanage serving as his midway point. Literally his midway point. Like his base of operations.
50:55
Case
I kept also thinking it's. I think it's Midvale is where Supergirl lives. And I kept thinking about that. Where it's like how many Mids are. Are in the D.C. lore.
51:07
Kris
Right.
51:07
Case
And wouldn't that have been much more interesting? Although it would be kind of like Bloodhaven or apparently Blued Haven, as they said in Peacemaker recently.
51:15
Kris
That was killing me, dude. I mean, I guess got the two little dots over the U. Blue I everything.
51:21
Case
I've always said Bloodhaven.
51:22
Kris
It's Bloodhaven. Yeah, We've all always called it Bloodhaven. Yeah, they've called it Bloodhaven and the Animated Sear. Various animated series. Any other show where it's mentioned, it's.
51:30
Case
It's Bloodhaven, Blue Taven.
51:33
Kris
What really, what concerns me is that's like a thesis statement now for the James Gunn dcu, that means it's like officially James Gunn sees it as Blue Taven, Blue Tavern, Blue Heaven.
51:46
Case
Anywho. Yeah. So the idea of. Of Midway as a city between the two is like kind of fine. Like I. I enjoy that as a general concept because like, Lord, I live off of I95. There's so many cities that exist because they're on 995.
52:02
Jmike
Yeah.
52:03
Kris
Right. I think that like Hawkman and Hawk Woman would probably take umbrage to their city just being. It's now just the midway point. It's Midway because it's midway between Gotham and Metropolis. Probably doesn't feel great for the people who Live there and are proud to. To be from that city. But it works for this comic, that's for sure.
52:19
Jmike
Yeah.
52:20
Case
So why don't we. Why don't we talk about our two main characters? Because we haven't actually spent that much time aside from talking about the art for them, but why don't we talk about Batman for a minute, Chris? Chris, you're a Batman podcaster. What are your. Your takes on this Batman?
52:32
Kris
Yeah, I. This is a. A great Batman in action. He's drawn so beautifully. The swish of the cape, him leaping into action is what I found throughout. And one key element that this book gets so right, it's his Batarang. It's that big. More like bold. It's kind of vaguely bat shaped, but. Or bat wing shaped. It's not shaped like the bat symbol yet.
52:56
Case
And. Right.
52:57
Kris
He's. It's so iconic.
52:58
Case
It's still more of a boomerang.
52:59
Kris
It's much more of a boomerang still. Right. It's so iconic. He's effective with it. It's. As I said, it's the kind of Batman that you're used to being quick, inefficient, and brutal. He wants to get in, he wants to get it done and get back out. Like, he flies in at one point with just, like, no questions asked in a flying foot to the face of the Joker. That's how he enters the scene. And that's like, some beautiful Batman stuff for me. And I think that's why I found it so interesting when he was stymied by Luther in that moment where, again, Batman wants to be action oriented. That thing is destroying things. It's a one in a million shot to try and shut it down. I'm the guy who can take that shot. I'm going for it. Yeah.
53:37
Kris
This was a great Batman, for my money. And I think maybe we've danced around this a little bit in terms of the story, but these books succeed on vibes. We talked about the artwork. It's not just the costume choice, but it's the pairing of that costume choice with this particular Batmobile. His aesthetic is lean but muscular. He looks a little bit more like. A boxer than a highly trained martial artist or some hulking bruiser, necessarily. Necessarily.
54:06
Case
Yeah. It's like. It's like a feline's kind of physique.
54:09
Kris
Interesting. Yeah, he looks highly athletic in this, and that's. That's quite enjoyable. There's so much about this character that, for me, has always been intriguing. Like, when you see the contrast panel of Clark enjoying a hot cup of cocoa. I'm sure it is there, you know, by the Christmas tree with everybody else. And Bruce is in the Batcave. He's putting in the work. It's Christmas night, but crime never sleeps. He tells Superman. Crime doesn't take a holiday.
54:32
Jmike
Right?
54:33
Kris
He tells Superman. Yeah. It's a Batman that I really appreciate, Especially in that contrast to Superman in a lovely Bruce Wayne Persona.
54:41
Case
Yeah. So Bruce Wayne is interesting in this one. I. I find it fascinating that he takes on this sort of, like, investigator role in Metropolis and is like, you know, it makes sense. He's rich. He can kind of just do whatever he wants to a certain degree.
54:56
Kris
Yeah. It's like. He's like, It's like, for my charities, I'm interested because I do charity stuff.
55:01
Jmike
Right.
55:01
Case
Yeah. And they're just like, yeah, no, cool. We'll sign our top reporter and photographer.
55:06
Kris
Yeah.
55:06
Case
To be your liaison while you're here.
55:08
Kris
He acts like a playboy. He dresses like a playboy. I love that he's unabashedly wooing Lois while also, you know, doing the work.
55:16
Case
Yeah. And being addicted. Jimmy Olsen, like, the entire time where it's like, Mr. Wayne, my car's out here. So is mine.
55:23
Kris
He's, like, rocking a toothpick at one point for some reason. He just, like, looks cool with a scarf and a toothpick.
55:28
Case
I thought he was about to go off and be Matches Malone when he was doing that scene. Cause he. He's got, like, a toothpick, and he's. And he's like, oh, I have to go be, like, more incognito than, like, what you would allow Mr. Olsen. And then he pieces out, and then he's a homeless guy on the street.
55:41
Kris
Yes. Yes. But I was. That was the last thing. I'm glad you mentioned, Matches, because that. That costume work is just iconic Batman stuff. And you don't get. Not every story plays on all facets of him. The detective, the master of disguise, the martial artist. Right. The gadgeteer. And this story includes quite a bit of it in some fun ways.
56:01
Jmike
Yeah. You mentioned the Christmas scene. I ought to be laughed at that point, because, like, the kids see it first. And as soon as the Joker catches on to what's happening, he's, like, out of my way. And he's, like, tossing kids because he knows he's about to get clapped.
56:15
Kris
Exactly. Exactly.
56:18
Jmike
And I was like, oh, that's awesome.
56:20
Kris
He can hear the kick coming.
56:23
Jmike
Yeah.
56:23
Case
That's one thing that is very nice about these characters. Even. Even if Luthor is not, or rather even if the Joker is not the villain that I would want him to be. And Luthor is kind of pedestrian in some ways. Like, these are very effective Batman and Robins or Batman's and Superman's. Pardon me. Like, Batman is so dynamic and has such, like, great energy where like, as he like, explodes onto every scene and Superman is just this freight train like, every place. He, like, shows up, like, so much raw power as he, like, just pops in and solves the thing.
56:57
Kris
You get that pairing of their brain and brawn dynamic that way. Because I think it's Batman's idea. He identifies the river underneath Gotham, but Superman literally bores into the earth to create wellsprings to put up the fires. To your point, just an absolute freight train of power.
57:14
Case
Yeah, that was a really effective team up moment for them because it was like, yeah, no, Batman would have that sort of insight. And then we can have Superman be the powerhouse on here without it feeling forced. Because, like, the problem is you could also make the argument that wouldn't Superman just be able to see it with his X ray vision? But maybe not. And it's, like, nice to have a character just, like, know about it and point him, pointing him in the right direction.
57:35
Kris
And he's not like a strategist. You know, it's Batman who's the creative thinker, the dynamic strategist on his feet. Just seeing the river maybe doesn't inspire, like, you know what, because of the recent snow melt, it's going to be under a ton of. We can block it, create pressure and boom.
57:50
Jmike
Right. It is good to, like, see them work together with their. Their team abilities. It's. It's fun to see them actually in action and do things together because we don't get that very often anymore. It's very sad.
58:07
Case
Yeah. Well, and this book, like, teases it for a while. Like, you know, the first issue, it's like, oh, we're just going to switch places, you know?
58:14
Kris
Mm.
58:15
Case
And it takes a minute to actually have them be, like, fully together as a team. But when they do, then it's really effective.
58:20
Kris
Yeah, it's. And it's very natural. They. They fall into their respective roles pretty quickly. This book didn't spend any time doing, like, the ego trip thing where, like, one of them needs to get the up on the other or can't let the other one help them. Like, Batman even let Superman carry him in this without. Without comment or fight. I thought that panel was heading in a different direction. When Superman puts his hands out. And it's like a smaller panel than the panel I read digitally. And so, like, that was big on my screen first, and that shifted out of the way. I thought for sure there was going to be a different reaction from Batman. I was shocked when he was just.
58:53
Case
Like, all right, I'll ride with you.
58:56
Kris
Yeah, looks like my cat when I pick him up.
58:59
Case
Now, as for Superman, I think that the one challenge with Superman is that he is so capable in some versions that it becomes difficult. Again, this gets back to the whole, like, why is the Joker, like, any kind of problem for. For Superman in this book? But I think they do a good job keeping Batman as a. Foil for him in such a way that it doesn't defang Superman too much. Like, he's already defanged a little bit because it's the burn era Superman, who is a little less powerful, a little bit more of a cop. And, you know, just in general, like. A particular niche of the character. But I think this is doing a good job. And, you know, like I said, the. The art makes him look like this Joe Schuster or. Or like the Max Fleischer. Like, so much.
59:44
Case
Like, we end up with such a perfect rendition of this character. And especially in the Clark scenes, I. I like. I keep going back to, like, the way he, like, plays with his glasses, the way he, like, smiles or, like, looks at things. Like, it. It. Yeah, it. Like his Clark Kent is so perfect.
01:00:01
Kris
Totally. And they even use some. Some fun moments as Clark to help explore, again, Superman's powers. More interestingly, I said earlier how much fun it must be to write Superman. We get a scene where he's Clark, but he has to kind of slow things down a bit so he melts the pen with his. Yeah, his heat vision.
01:00:18
Case
No, but he's Superman in that scene, isn't he? Yeah, he's Superman because they have Superman in that scene.
01:00:25
Kris
He's there as Superman as a guest. Strike.
01:00:28
Case
I went back to that one where they're like, huh, it's weird. The pen just melted. I'm like, what the do you mean it's weird? Superman's right next to you.
01:00:33
Kris
Superman's literally right there. Right, right.
01:00:36
Jmike
I was like, how did. How did Lex not catch on to that? Be like, wait a second.
01:00:39
Kris
I forgot. Lex is all grumpy that Superman was invited as a guest to that same. Same gathering.
01:00:44
Case
That's right. No, that's such a weird one, because I read that scene, and I was like, that's so supposed to be Clark.
01:00:51
Kris
Yeah.
01:00:52
Case
And then it's Just like nobody is actually Superman because they needed to have an excuse for Superman to actually be there and not have Superman or have Clark duck away to show up as Superman.
01:01:02
Kris
But yeah. Why do you not immediately like, hey, Superman, did you just melt this pen for some reason? Because this pen just randomly melted somehow. Yeah. Some fun examples of both his small power and his big power. He isn't just a freight train. I did like the subtlety of that. Right. Of precision. Use of the laser eyes. Uses x ray vision. I think in pursuit of a criminal at one point to escape sets. Maybe it's Dumb and D who escape into the sewer and Superman's able to track him. But then you get big Superman power, too. I can't believe they did this. So, so close on the heels of. Of the four Superman films. But we get a classic Superman carrying a nuke into space.
01:01:42
Case
Yeah.
01:01:42
Kris
And irresponsibly throwing a nuke nearly at the moon. I thought he was really gonna throw that nuke at the moon, the way it was being drawn. I unfortunately rewatched all of those old movies quite recently, and I guess, actually maybe similar to this, these issues, like the stories don't quite hold up. I think the fondness that we hold for those things are very much. Vibes.
01:02:04
Case
Yes.
01:02:05
Kris
More so than substance. And so when I saw the nuke going to space, I was like, oh, not again. Superman has.
01:02:11
Case
Now we're going to get more Phantom Zone villains.
01:02:13
Kris
There. There could and should be a whole separate. Separate storyline about all the mutant aliens who come to Earth having been absolutely messed up by the number of nukes that Superman has sent into space.
01:02:26
Case
That's a wonderful pitch for a story, actually.
01:02:30
Jmike
Also, I do like to see. I like. I like that they actually let Clark do his investigative journalism thing because, like, one of my favorite episodes of the Superman animated series is the. Is the Superman noir episode, the late Mr. Luther. Yeah.
01:02:47
Case
Yeah.
01:02:47
Jmike
Fantastic episode. We don't really get a chance, especially, like, in recent times, we don't really get a chance to, like, see him do his. His, like, oh, Clark Kent here for the Day of the Planet type thing anymore. So it's good to, like, see him actually out and about and doing that, interacting with the crowd because he has that scene at the diner where he's sitting in the midst of everyone and everyone's just giving them the stories. He's. He's getting the gist of what's happening in the community from everybody there.
01:03:12
Kris
That's right.
01:03:12
Jmike
He's fantastic.
01:03:15
Kris
That is really good. And you see. You see Some of that skill set, too. When he goes to the. The power plant before he has to take the reactor out of there, he. First he's a. Confronting the scientists. He's confronting the folks who work there. And he's. He's kind of interrogating them very much in the investigative journalist type of way. He has the advantage of being Superman so he can stand there immune to the radiation that's like clearly filling. Filling the vicinity they're trying to lie to him about. But he's very much standing in his. His journalist mode there, even though he's in the red boots.
01:03:45
Case
Yeah. And I like that detail for how they figure out that the nuclear power plants involved that dumb and d. Have the, like, the, like the nuclear, like, reactor stickers.
01:03:55
Kris
Yeah.
01:03:56
Case
And by that I mean, like, it's like a film that, like, responds to the presence of radiation. So you know that you're in a dangerous space so you can leave kind of thing that they. They have, like. They have badges that have this, like, on it.
01:04:07
Kris
Right.
01:04:07
Case
I'm just trying to set up for. For people who didn't read this comment, like, what the hell am I talking about?
01:04:12
Kris
Yeah. Shocking to think that Joker would have provided that to them. I don't think Joker cares actually that much, but maybe they picked one up each from the. The power plant itself.
01:04:22
Case
Yeah. Chris, is there anything that we haven't covered that you wanted to discuss in this?
01:04:26
Kris
Well, before we moved on from Superman and I guess in contrast with Batman, but I found the Superman bit much more satisfying. In the closing pages, we get this wonderful editorial from Perry White, and he's talking about this great happening in this team up between the world's finest team. I think it's what he puts on the front page of the paper. And he speculates, will they learn anything? Will they adopt and adapt skill sets from the other or ways of working from the other? And you see Superman try out a nighttime intimidation tactic on Luthor.
01:04:59
Case
Yes.
01:04:59
Kris
That was that really fantastic. He doesn't say anything. He doesn't do anything. He just goes. And he scares the out of him at night. And doing his best Batman impression. I thought that was. I mean, Chef's kiss.
01:05:14
Jmike
Sits there and smiles at him. And I was like, what the hell?
01:05:17
Kris
Yeah, he's. He's drawn like. Like Batman. He's all in shadow. He's got nothing but white eyes.
01:05:24
Case
Yeah. I think you're even supposed to think that it is Batman in the first panel, because just white eyes on black.
01:05:28
Kris
It's just the white eyes on black. Luthor, he says, luther throws the globe and it smashes off Superman's face. He doesn't even blink. He doesn't flinch. He just smiles and flies away. That is some Batman ass stuff. And I guess Batman pulls a Superman 2, right? He's in the sky. He's using a spotlight as opposed to laser vision. But he identifies a weapon on Joker. He's using a more Superman tactic. And then rains a little fire from the sky. His own version.
01:05:57
Case
And then just lets the Joker get the fuck away. Which is just another weird detail.
01:06:01
Kris
Well, because they're both just doing the intimidate. They're both just. Vibes only.
01:06:06
Case
Yeah, it's vibes only. J. Mike, how about you? Do you have any final things that you want to bring up that we haven't talked about?
01:06:12
Jmike
I still, like I said earlier, one of my favorite scenes is the. There's the. The foot to the face of the Joker. But then there's this. I wouldn't say it's. It's a. My favorite scene, but there's an interestingly drawn scene of when they're getting everyone out of the orphanage while it's on fire. And it's like. It's Monk and the. The. What's the guy's name? I forgot his name.
01:06:41
Kris
But there is still Wiley. Baron Wiley or something like that.
01:06:44
Jmike
I think so. But there are still in. Inside the orphanage while it's burning down. And you get this weird scene of like Monk underneath the. The wreckage and like, Wiley is like, reaching out to him in some kind of nightmarish.
01:06:59
Case
Yeah, his like, face is like partially strangling him.
01:07:02
Kris
He's a. He's a burning skeleton.
01:07:03
Jmike
What the hell?
01:07:05
Kris
Yeah, he looks like that shot right there.
01:07:07
Jmike
Yeah, yeah.
01:07:08
Kris
Ghost Rider.
01:07:09
Case
I kept thinking you mentioned Wiley and we haven't really talked about him because he's like nothing of a character. I kept thinking about the. If there was any connection with Philip Wy, who wrote the Gladiator.
01:07:18
Kris
Oh, interesting.
01:07:19
Case
Which is often seen as like one of the really influential works that spawn Superman. I have no idea if there's like, there's nothing in the story that would connect the two. It's just like, the name just like struck me there.
01:07:31
Kris
If you. If you turn the page case, there's a. The top panel on the next page is Superman looking at the blaze. The way that was drawn was so striking to me. They do this quite a bit throughout. Like this color blocking almost to create contrast. It's Superman. His face is all gold, his chest and armor all gold, with the Glow of the fire. Just a striking panel with Batman behind him, hand on his shoulder. Superman wants to go in and do something. Batman's trying to tell him it's too late. But you've got, like, the glow of the fire on Superman. Really beautiful panel that is opposite the.
01:08:04
Case
Page with the Christmas thing. And it appears, looking at the Christmas thing, that there's a pocket in Superman's cape there.
01:08:10
Jmike
Pocket in his cape.
01:08:11
Kris
Is he actually reaching into a pocket? I see that. I see what you're looking at.
01:08:14
Case
Yeah.
01:08:14
Kris
There is a pocket.
01:08:15
Jmike
Yeah.
01:08:16
Kris
All right.
01:08:17
Case
So I think that explains what happened there.
01:08:19
Jmike
Is this canon. This is a canon thing. I've never seen this before in my life.
01:08:24
Kris
I can. I want to read the panels where he has the conversation with Ma Kent. It's like, ma, I need you to. Could you add a couple of little. I'm out and I'm hungry. I could use a sandwich in the cape. If you could sew a few pockets on the thing.
01:08:38
Case
I mean, I guess that explains it. Like, he's established that he carries, like, some money on him at all times just in case he needs it. And so I guess it could be in there instead of, like, his belt or whatever.
01:08:47
Kris
I suppose so.
01:08:51
Case
So for. Here's the question I have for. For both of you. How, like, we. We talk about how this is a lot of vibes. Would you call this essential reading?
01:09:01
Kris
Yes. So I'll take that on. I mentioned earlier my friend Matt Chang Madden, who, when I. He sort of educated me in Batman comics by feeding me some really iconic storylines. No Man's Land, Cataclysm. Hush. If I were to do the same thing for somebody else, and I wanted to really help educate them on the history of the DC universe, the history of these characters, this feels like the kind of miniseries that you sneak into the bundle, not because the story itself has something great to say, but because of all the iconography that's in this. Because of the vibes. I think you're. You're learning a ton about both characters in this. You're getting exposed to some classic dynamics between them, between their allies. Yeah. The story itself may not be essential, but everything. The pieces contained within certainly feel like they are.
01:09:51
Case
Yeah. And especially, like we've talked about the snapshot nature of it. Like, if you're trying to like it from your perspective of you're doing the history of the DCU or the history of the. The relationship between these characters. Like, this honestly, like, you're going to read this right after reading man of Steel's issue that has the Batman feature, which I think issue four, maybe three, you know, where they deal with Magpie. That's going to be a very jarring transition between like, in terms of the dynamic of the character because, like, prior to that, I guess you would look at Dark Knight Returns and then before that some of the world's finest that it ended pre crisis or you know, just before crisis happened. And then after this, you're going to probably look at.
01:10:35
Case
I'm not even sure what the next like big Batman Superman crossover is. Like there's the 99 world's finest, but I'm pretty sure that they've. They had, you know, like Justice League, I guess happen or like jla, the Morrison JLA happens between now and then. But like, I'm not even sure what the big ticket Superman Batman stories of like the mid-90s are.
01:10:53
Kris
Yeah, it's a really good question. I honestly, because for me it's. It's later than that. Like I said Public Enemies that comic arc is. Looms pretty large in my. My memory from my younger days. I'm not sure what fell between.
01:11:06
Case
Yeah.
01:11:07
Kris
Yeah. So I think in that way this is. This feels pretty essential to your point to snapshot. Yeah.
01:11:12
Case
Of what that dynamic between Superman and Batman was like in the wake of the Crisis on Infinite Earths.
01:11:18
Jmike
I'm trying to think of like the major crossover events between there and like, I don't really. Because Death of Superman is three years later. Right. And then after that it was pretty much like the animated stuff was the kind of the focal point going forward.
01:11:33
Kris
Yeah.
01:11:33
Case
I'm sure they had crossover issues. Like, I'm not saying that there's no crossover before we get to more prominent Morrison jla, but the next big thing I can think about in terms of like the run of comics. Like there were certainly issues where they dealt with like the. The Azrael Batman with Superman and with. Because I'm pretty sure I might be getting this mixed up with the world's finest that we're going to talk about soon, the 99 world's finest. Because there's a scene in that where we deal with like the. The four imposter Supermen and with the as Bats situation because it goes through the whole timeline. But I'm pretty sure there's an actual issue where Superman goes and talks to as Bats and like decides that he. That he can't tell for sure. But I can't remember that well.
01:12:16
Case
And I'm sure there have been other points where they talk to each other and have some kind of team up in their respective books. I just can't think of any big, like, cultural touchstone crossovers between them that happens before they're on the JLA together.
01:12:29
Jmike
You're right. I think you're right.
01:12:30
Case
And that's just kind of interesting. I think it does make this more of a specific snapshot to check out and to really see what these characters were like at that time.
01:12:39
Jmike
Well, yeah, I still prefer World's Finest.
01:12:43
Case
Which World's Finest?
01:12:44
Jmike
I was gonna say the animated version. There you go.
01:12:47
Kris
I was gonna say the modern world's Finest. I stay relatively current on that book right now.
01:12:53
Case
Yeah, that book is great. We've talked about that also here. It's so good.
01:12:58
Kris
It's really. It's a ton of fun. And their use of Robin in that book, Robin was always a fun third to this dynamic, and that book does it really well.
01:13:06
Case
Yeah. Dick specifically, like all the other Robins. Great. But, like, Dick is such a character. Like, this is why Nightwing is his codename. Nightwing is a Superman reference.
01:13:16
Kris
That's right.
01:13:18
Case
They have a strong relationship. Yeah.
01:13:21
Jmike
Like what? I'm like, yeah, Nightwing is. It's a superhero, a Superman thing that he like.
01:13:26
Kris
It's a vigilante from. From Krypton.
01:13:29
Jmike
Yeah.
01:13:29
Case
Yeah. From Kandor.
01:13:30
Jmike
They're like, what? I'm like, yeah, you could like, yeah, you learned something new today. Ta da.
01:13:35
Kris
And you're welcome.
01:13:36
Jmike
Yeah.
01:13:38
Case
All right. Well, on that note, I. I feel like I'm good as far as talking about this book. The problem with a decompressed story is that I don't have a lot of story beats to really, like, talk about. There's, like, all the orphanage stuff doesn't land for me, so I don't have anything really to say about it.
01:13:53
Kris
No. Agreed.
01:13:54
Jmike
I think.
01:13:54
Kris
I think we crushed it here, vibes wise. That's. This. This book was vibes.
01:14:01
Case
So on that note, Chris, where can people find you and follow you? Thank you. Thank you for coming on. And I want people to check you out.
01:14:07
Kris
Yeah. So first and foremost, please do check out the Media lit podcast with my dear friend Randy Allain. You can find us on all the socials. We've even begun posting some video content to YouTube Media Lit. Throw it in your favorite search browser. I promise you'll find us. And Batman by the numbers is once a month. It's on the Pop Break podcast feed. Go to the pop break.com, hover over that podcast tab, and you'll find Batman by the Numbers listed with my dear friend Dan Cohen. Aside from podcasts, I also an actor and I'm a voice actor. I'm a father and a husband. You can catch me doing those things on Instagram and bluesky@chris underscore Ingersoll. That's Kris spelled like Kringle.
01:14:51
Case
Awesome. Thank you again for coming on. It's. This has been such a great conversation and people should absolutely check out all the stuff that you're doing. Like, you're a wonderful podcaster and it's great getting to know you by way of the podcast community that we're building.
01:15:04
Kris
Yeah, thanks, man. It's been so fun podding with you. This is now, what, our third? Third or fourth?
01:15:09
Case
Third together. And it will be our fourth within this month.
01:15:11
Kris
Absolutely. Can't wait. I think next. Next week.
01:15:14
Case
I think next week.
01:15:14
Kris
We're talking Tarzan Tata's in next week.
01:15:16
Case
Yeah.
01:15:17
Kris
So, yeah, I have a blast doing this and I have a blast doing with you. Thanks again for having me on.
01:15:22
Case
All right, J Mike, where can people find you and follow you like Chris?
01:15:25
Jmike
You can follow me for the vibes. But I'm also on blue sky at J5 Bluesky Social and we're also on the Discord Coughlink Wink Cough that I'm occasionally on.
01:15:41
Case
Hey, you've been participating a lot more recently. I've been very proud of you.
01:15:46
Jmike
I'm there in the shadows, lurking everywhere all the time.
01:15:49
Case
Like Batman.
01:15:49
Jmike
Yeah.
01:15:51
Case
Well, as J. Mike mentioned, the Discord is a great place to talk to us. The CPOV Discord. You can find a link either on the show Notes for this or on the website certainpov.com that is a great place to get in touch with us to interact with people from all the different shows in the certain POV podcast network. We're having tons of great conversations there and it's a really good spot to get into a conversation on a thing. I'm going to plug in a second, but we're still doing socials at the moment.
01:16:17
Case
So you can find me on the Discord or you can find me at most socials at Case Aiken or if you want to do Instagram, you can find me at quetzalcoatl5 because I am still using my AIM screen name from high school and I'm holding onto it for dear life and that's Q U E T Z A L C o a T L5. So yep, because I was pretentious in high school and continue to be so. But I mentioned that were plugging stuff. And so if you are interested in the kinds of things that we're working on here and if you like comic books in general, the thing that I am plugging right now more than anything is Trade School. Trade School is a new comics podcast that we are launching as part of certain Point of view.
01:16:58
Case
And by launching, I mean it has launched. Podcast time is weird and I'm trying to remember how things work anymore, but the idea is that a guest host comes on and talks for five to 15 minutes about a trade paperback that they loved and that. That's it. That's the format for the show. So check out Trade School. It's really cool. And if you have a trade paperback that you really love and you want to talk about for five to 15 minutes, let me know and I'd be happy to have you. Come on, Chris, that goes for you too. But that is the biggest thing that I wanted to plug right now. I do need to give a shout out to our patrons. We have a Patreon going and it is wonderful and we thank the people who have joined at all tiers so much.
01:17:38
Case
It's so incredible having people who just want to tune in and support us. But I do need to give a shout out specifically to our executive producer tier. So I'm going to shout out Micah McCaw, Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, Lee Greger, Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Mastropiero, Casey and Nancy Aiken, Adam Sampter and Keith Lettinen. If you want to be like these awesome people, you can find us at patreon.com/ certainpov media and that is a wonderful place to support the show. Otherwise, you can find us everywhere you get your podcast, you can find us on YouTube, which is a growing platform for us. That is just incredible with the amount of feedback we've been getting. Assuming you're not watching this currently on YouTube, in which case we're available all the other podcast places like Spotify and all those. So check us out wherever.
01:18:26
Case
We'd be happy to have you listen. I'm assuming you're listening because you're listening right now for me saying this. This is all kind of a ramble at this point. Anyway, we'll be back soon with more Superman discussion. We'll be back soon with another world's finest discussion. I'm just not sure if it's the next episode or not. But until next time, stay super man.
01:18:52
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Ricciardi. Our logo is by Chris Bautista, and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our theme is by Jeff Moonan.
01:19:12
Case
Digging for Kryptonite is a weekly podcast series hosted by yours truly, Anthony DeSiotto, examining Superman's vast mythology across time and media. If you have a favorite story, creator or adaptation, chances are we've covered it over the past 200 episodes. I've interviewed creators including Mark Waid, Dan Jurgens, Jeph Loeb, Joe Kelly, and many more. Whether you're a lifelong Superman fan like me, or you're new to the character, we have you covered. Subscribe to Digging for Kryptonite wherever you get podcasts. And remember, it's about what you do. It's about action. CPOV certainpov.com.