Episode 143 - Voices From Krypton with Ed Gross
Case and Jmike are joined by Ed Gross to talk about his books on Superman!
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Superman: The Definitive History
Overview
In this engaging podcast interview, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike welcome Ed Gross, a prolific author known for his in-depth oral histories, particularly focusing on Superman. The conversation begins with an exploration of Ed’s background and his extensive work, including the recently released 'The Definitive History of Superman' and the ambitious 'Voices from Krypton,' which features insights from 250 interviews. Ed shares the intricate process behind creating oral histories, akin to piecing together a jigsaw puzzle, while delving into the complex history of Superman’s creators, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. The dialogue highlights Ed's personal connection to Superman and discusses the legacy of the character, as well as his experiences interviewing various actors who have portrayed Superman. The episode concludes with an announcement of a book giveaway to the listeners, further engaging the audience with Ed's work.
Notes
Introduction to Ed Gross and His Superman Projects (00:00 - 11:37)
Case Aiken and Jmike welcome guest Ed Gross to discuss his Superman books.
Ed wrote 'Voices from Krypton,' an oral history of Superman that includes interviews with Case.
Ed recently completed 'The Definitive History of Superman.'
Ed explains his background in oral histories, starting with Star Trek's 50th anniversary in 2015.
Oral histories allow presentation of multiple perspectives, including conflicting views.
Ed has written 14 books in 9 years, including oral histories of Star Trek, Star Wars, James Bond.
'Voices from Krypton' was a dream project that utilized 40 years of Ed's interviews.
Creating Oral Histories and Superman's Legacy (11:37 - 22:26)
Ed explains his process for creating oral histories, comparing it to assembling a jigsaw puzzle.
Interviews are structured to tell a coherent story while maintaining authentic voices.
The book includes 250 interviews in total, creating a 333,000-word, 750-page tome.
The Siegel and Shuster story was the most challenging section to research and balance.
Ed spent four months researching court papers and interviewing relatives to tell their story fairly.
Ed discusses how the creators eventually received credit for Superman before they died.
Superman has appeared in some form of production every decade since 1938.
️ Superman's Creation and Complex History (22:26 - 32:30)
Ed compares Siegel and Shuster's work-for-hire situation to actors in Gilligan's Island and Star Trek.
Despite selling rights for
130, Siegel and Shuster made equivalent of
6 million in first nine years.
Ed highlights Neil Adams' significant role in advocating for Superman's creators.
Ed discusses his personal connection to Superman since age 5.
Superman remains one of Ed's lifetime obsessions alongside Star Trek, Beatles, James Bond.
Ed notes he can trace his lifelong interests to a five-year period in his childhood (1967-1972).
Ed expresses gratitude for being able to write about his childhood passions professionally.
Superman: The Definitive History Book (32:30 - 43:07)
Ed was approached to create official Superman history after 'Voices from Krypton' success.
Initial deadline was only four months but was extended.
Ed co-wrote with Bob Greenberger, who handled comic book history sections.
The official book features extensive artwork including comics, production art, storyboards.
Book is oversized (16 pounds) and retails for
175 (Amazon
157).
Kindle version available for $19.99.
Ed discusses his interactions with Brandon Routh, who wrote the foreword.
Brandon embodies Superman's principles in real life, especially when interacting with fans.
Superman Actors and Future Projects (43:07 - 54:25)
Ed has interviewed numerous Superman actors including Dean Cain, George Newbern, Tim Daly.
Shares story of meeting Henry Cavill before Man of Steel and being struck by his Superman-like appearance.
Ed is currently working on second volume of Planet of the Apes oral history.
Ed mentions working on more Superman projects but can't discuss specifics yet.
Every person interviewed was enthusiastic about discussing Superman.
Ed shares anecdote about Kevin Smith's enthusiasm regarding a childhood Superman game.
People recognize being part of Superman's 86-year legacy.
Podcast hosts announce giveaway of Ed's book to Discord members.
Action items
First three people to DM Case on Discord will receive copies of Ed's book (52:22)
Transcription
00:00
Ed
So in that conversation with him, I mentioned. Oh, yeah, when I was a kid, you know, I used to play Superman with my friends. I was Superman. My friend was Lex Luthor, and he came up with a thing called kryptonite gum. And he put it in my. Pretend to put it in my hair and say, oh, he's got kryptonite gum. And. And Kevin Smith laughed and, you know, we're ready. I'm ready to move on. Right. He wasn't. He says. He goes. He goes, wait a minute. He goes, you got that gum in his hair. Crypto like gum, man. He's. He's got to get it out. What's he gonna do? It's like frying his brain. As he's trying to come up with a solution to get that gum out of his hair. I was like, okay, I didn't go that far.
00:37
Case
Cut out the hair. The hair is super solid still.
00:40
Ed
Exactly. So it's frying his brain. He's. What are you gonna do? Get peanut butter to get it out of me? What are you gonna do? So. But the fact that Kevin. Kevin Smith took it and ran with it, I thought.
01:17
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Jm. ike Folson.
01:24
Jmike
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show.
01:27
Case
Yes, welcome back indeed. Today we have a very special episode because we have a guest today who I've been trying to get on for a little while because it's a very cool guest with a very cool project, but it's one that I think timing got kind of weird in large part because I had a baby and things got strange, and. That'll do it. But today we are joined by Ed Gross.
01:52
Ed
Hello. Happy to be here.
01:54
Case
And, Ed, the reason I've wanted to get you on for a while is because you wrote. But it's a much larger project than that in terms of putting together an oral history of Superman. You put together voices from Krypton.
02:10
Ed
Yes, yes. Which is sort of the crowning achievement, I think, of my writing, of all the books I've done.
02:18
Case
And I was super excited about this, pardon the pun, because I was actually interviewed by you and included in. In the book, which is just fantastic.
02:26
Ed
Well, I was glad to have you. I love having the voices of people who spend a lot of time talking about the character. It makes sense to try to incorporate those views in. So it worked out very well.
02:36
Case
Yeah. But. But then the. The crazy part is it's been sort of a Scheduling nightmare in terms of. Of getting this recording. And in the interim, not only did you do the Unauthorized History of Superman, you have now actually done the definitive history of Superman. So that's just incredible. And I want to get to that. Let's start with your background. Talk a little bit about how you got into doing these oral histories.
03:01
Ed
Well, I mean, I had written a number of books prior to beginning oral histories. I had done regular narrative books incorporating quotes from people on different subjects. But then in 2015, with the 50th anniversary of Star Trek, my co author, Mark Altman came to me and said, hey, we should do this. Try to sell this as an oral history book. And I was like, what's an oral history? I have never had. Never seen one at that time. So he recommended two. One on Live from New York, which was a Saturday Night Live oral history. And then I want my mtv, which is an oral history of mtv. And I was blown away by the format and embraced it fully for 50 year mission, which was the Star Trek book, which was two volumes.
03:42
Ed
And from there we just started doing a bunch of these books. Like, I mean, I wrote 14 books in nine years, which I don't understand now, looking back how that's possible. But. But it was. And. And we did oral histories on Star Trek, Battlestar Buffy and Angel, Star Wars, John Wick, James Bond. I mean, just crazy. All the things I love in my life, those passions, you know, I was very lucky to be able to do it. And through it all, Voices from Krypton. I knew I wanted to do an oral history of Superman because a. The character's been a part of my life since I was about 5. It's a long time ago.
04:16
Ed
And it just felt like this would sort of be the dream because I had like, tons of interviews I have been doing over the last 40 years as an entertainment journalist. Every time a new Superman project came out, I was there doing interviews or retrospective interviews, unlike Superman, the movie and things like that. Yeah, so. So this became sort of the dream and the real driving force of these oral histories. And that's sort of how the oral histories themselves started to come together. And if I had my way, I'd never write another book without an oral not being an oral history because I love the format so much. But there you go. That answered your question. But the. That's sort of how it came about.
04:55
Case
No, I love it. It's wild to think of you having this sort of like being this like, packrat for all these quotes and interviews and so forth over Your career, and then finally being able to, like, pull them out and, like, assemble them as, like, the beginnings of putting together the voices from Krypton. So what's your process there then? Like, so you said that you had some of this data already before you started to assemble it. But when you are putting together an oral history, where do you start?
05:27
Ed
You know, it's. It's funny. You start with an interview, whatever that interview may be, whoever it is, if it's Richard Donner. Let's say I went back to an older. I want to emphasize my old interviews, my archived interviews, which are really a bunch of boxes with cassette tapes. And I'm just so. You know, they started with, let's say it's. It's Richard Donner in that instance. But my point was, I. There's so many new interviews that were done. The majority of these books of the book is new interviews. But you'd start with the transcript of somebody. And I'll use Donner again as the thing you say, all right, how did Donna get involved? You know, you do Richard Donner, and you put that quote, whatever that quote is about him getting involved, and the casting process.
06:05
Ed
So you break that into a couple of sections where, you know, he has different quotes until you get to Christopher Reeve. So you're mapping it out with just him. And then let's say, you know, it's the screenwriters. Let's say David Newman. And you say to David Newman, all right, talk to me about, you know, Christopher Reeves portrayal of Superman. And then he gives me this stuff. Then you match it up with whatever Donner said or whoever has said. And you try to put together this jigsaw puzzle where you're gradually adding more quotes to a particular section. But then you start saying, okay, this has to go in another chapter. This has to go down here.
06:41
Ed
And the more interviews you do, the more you have to really just look at how the flow of the story is and make it work in the sense of you're not changing anybody, of course, but you have to make it work where one guy or one person is leading into the next person. So if Donner says, oh, you know, I wanted to get Christopher Reeve because it's just so important to get an unknown in the role. Then you get Ilya Salkind saying, you know, the beginning, were looking for stars, you know, name stars like Robert Redford or whoever it is, you know, the names they threw around back then. And then you go back to Donner, adding to that. And then you go back to let's say David Newman.
07:16
Ed
And you get press kit stuff from Christopher Reeve where you can get his voice in there too. And you're just putting it together like a jigsaw puzzle, one after the other. And as the further you go on, then things are breaking themselves into different chapters, different sections, whatever it may be. It's kind of hard to explain because a lot of these books get dismissed by people as being a bunch of random quotes thrown together where nothing could be further from the truth. I mean, it is so hard to have those transcripts all around you and say, oh, this quote should go here, and that quote should go here underneath that one, and this one over here should go here. And as you're building it, then you suddenly say, this quote has to go up here.
07:58
Ed
So it's like this constant rearranging of blocks, if you will, or jigsaw puzzle pieces to make that story come together so that it's coherent when you're reading it. Even though in the end it should feel like you're in a room with 150, 200 people having a conversation about Superman. And it's everybody contributing to it and it's telling the history of the character. I hope that makes sense. You know, it's.
08:22
Case
It does. It makes sense to me because I've now read Two Point. Well, I read the 50 Year Mission, which is two books. So like. And then I also read Voices from Krypton. So, like, I know the format and in terms of how it's laid out, and I agree with you. I think that it's. Is you're telling the story by way of everyone's lines and recollections of things. And so you're piecing together, like, here's each person's memory of an event and working that together into telling the story for that portion and then taking that interview and whatever sections that you sort of get to. I guess it's interesting for me because I do have this insider knowledge because you interviewed me, so I had the chance to.
09:06
Case
And so I can see how, oh, were talking about this thing, and then we jumped over to this thing and then there was this thing that we talked about. And then there's like, pieces that are like, oh, like throughout the book. So I can be like, oh, that's. That's how you're kind of piecing it all together. Like you're allowing the conversations to flow. You're fine, you're. And you're finding how you can categorize all of these interviews in those portions. I Guess I'm now trying to convey this to the reader as well, or to the listener is.
09:30
Ed
Yeah, no, please. That's a lot clearer than I was. So. No, and that's it. Like with your quotes, for instance. That's. That's a great example, though. You have your quote there and whatever. Then you see what's surrounding you know, whoever. The people surrounding you and what they're saying and how you tie into what they're saying or they're tying in what you're saying, and you just. Again, you're. It's a steady progression to 333,000 words of this book. I'll never forget that number. But. And to me, it is a fascinating process, because the beauty of an oral history compared to when you're telling a narrative story of the history of something is this is purely from the point of view of the people involved, the people you're speaking to. So you're going to have conflicting views. You're going to have conflicting memories.
10:14
Ed
You're going to want one guy says one thing and the next person says something that could totally go opposite what they're saying. And that's what's fascinating about the oral history, too, because it really is the views of the people, rather than. You're telling. Yes, you're telling the history. But unlike other books, you can have that conflicting view of what the history was.
10:34
Case
Yeah, it's kind of like gonzo journalism in that regard.
10:38
Ed
Yeah, yeah, it is. But it is all, you know, thoroughly researched and spending hours and hours on the phone with people and then tying it all together somehow.
10:49
Case
So then with voices from Krypton, specifically. So, like, what was your process in terms of figuring out who you wanted to interview? Like, how did. Like, I guess I'm curious, like, you reached out to the fan community and, like, when. When did that process begin? And then how did you go about reaching out to the fan community?
11:08
Ed
Well, I just started. I mean, it started with, you know, I was doing a lot of interviews with people, like, I say, involved in the various productions of Superman over the years, or comic book writers I knew, like Mark Wade and Philip Kennedy Johnson and getting those guys to talk to me about their stuff. But the further I went on and, you know, I. I knew a lot of the podcasting people, yourself and Anthony Desiato and the others. I mean, so many others now that are doing these things and just basically reaching out. Look, I'm doing this history of Superman. I don't want it to be purely the people who were there. I want to get observations and views of people who have devoted parts of their life to covering this character in some form or another.
11:46
Ed
Because I think it's important to have that balance of the people who produced or wrote or drew or whatever it may be the Adventures of Superman, but then have the people who are the observers, who are the historians, basically doing the interviews or talking about different aspects of the character. It just, to me, seemed like a smart way to go, because, again, it just presents a variety of voices. I think, in the end, it was 250 people that were interviewed for this book. So it's like. A lot of people. Yeah, a lot of people.
12:17
Case
I mean, I believe it. This is a tome. It's like 750 pages, roughly.
12:22
Ed
Oh, it's crazy.
12:22
Case
Yeah.
12:23
Ed
And I'd still be writing it if I didn't have a deadline. Swiss. I did not want to get that book up. I said, no, it's not done yet. It has to be done. Okay, it's done. You know, so it's crazy. Yeah. The biggest part, I mean, I don't know if I should go off on a tangent on this, but I do. I do excel at tangents. Let me tell you the big. The most challenging part for me of the book really, was the whole Siegel Schuster, National Periodicals, dc, Warner Brothers aspect of this thing, of trying to find a way to tell that story where it's balanced and true. I mean, that's the thing I wasn't, like, saying, but there is no hero. There is no villain. There are definitely two.
13:02
Ed
You know, I get yelled at when I say this by certain people, that there are two sides to that story of what went down with them. But that was the rabbit hole. I spent literally four months in, I think, interviewing people, researching, grabbing court papers. I had permission from a guy named Tom Ant. I'm gonna mess up his name now. But I was given permission to use his interviews with Siegel and Schuster. So I was able to get their voices in the book as well. So that was the toughest thing for me is. And I kept going back to it because I felt it wasn't quite right yet, telling that part of the story. You know, that to me, was sort of. That was a challenge because, again, you want to get it right.
13:43
Ed
But the problem is most of the people who are alive, you know, were alive then, are no longer alive. So, you know, you're dependent on court papers. You're dependent on people who are observing or grandchildren of people who are there and that kind of thing. So just. Just a tough thing, but fascinating. For me to do because I was really focused on getting it right. And I think I did a pretty good job of it. We'll find out, I guess.
14:04
Case
But I mean, I think you did a fantastic job in that regard. Like the. The section discussing everything with Siegel and Schuster, I was. I was amazed at how many direct sources you. You got into that all just because it easy for it to be. Here's a bunch of comics historians kind of talking about it in the modern day, but it was an impressive number of people.
14:27
Ed
Well, thank you. I mean, it was important to me to get it right, because I'll tell you, when they got their credit back. And Superman, the movie came out as 18. When that came out, I sort of created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. I don't know why, but I got actually like a chill of excitement. And I have no idea why. And that was back when I was 18. It's like why I cared that these guys had their credit back, But I did. When that credit came on, it was just seems so significant that it was there. And of course, it's been there ever since. So I think that's pretty cool. Whatever went down between the two sides, that is cool that they got their credit back before they died, they were able to see their names on the big screen.
15:01
Case
I know it's such a messy part of the character's backstory.
15:06
Ed
It is.
15:08
Case
And a thing that is difficult to tackle with because we want Superman to be this, you know, symbol of purity for a lot of us. Like, you know, we want him to be a symbol of. Of good without the. The complications of, you know, the corporate world or anything like that. But when, you know that there's this. This, you know, difficult backstory of creative control and artistic freedom and. And, you know, and corporate rights and. And all that on what was a hit that no one expected to be a hit, you know.
15:39
Ed
Well, that's the thing. Nobody knew this was going to happen. And if DC or national periodicals didn't take it on, who knows if Superman ever would have clicked? Who knows if it ever would have happened if it didn't happen exactly when it came out? Because, let's say, gets they trying to sell it for another two or three years, that ship could have sailed. I mean, they would have been. It could have very easily missed it and not been anything, just another comic that came and went kind of thing.
16:02
Jmike
Could you imagine a world without.
16:04
Ed
No, no, I can't.
16:08
Case
But would that be a world with Wonder Man?
16:11
Ed
Maybe. Maybe. Yeah, that could very well be. But yeah, it was. I mean, because, like I say when I said earlier that there were two sides to it. There really were, because these guys, the company was publishing this thing, and they paid what they normally would pay, and it was, you know, she's work for hire. I mean, that's. That's all it was. I mean, that's. Everything was work for hire back then. I always use the comparison to, like, the actors who are on Gilligan's island, you know, they only got paid for five reruns of each episode. Right. And then it was over for them, really. Yeah. And same thing with Star Trek. The Star Trek actors. The same thing every show back then, unless you owned a piece of the show, if that was your deal.
16:49
Ed
But they would get paid for five reruns, whatever. They'd get paid. I don't even know how much it was. And these shows would go on and, you know, air for decades, millions of times around the world, and they wouldn't get another dime from it. So Siegel and Schuster had the same thing. Basically, they sold the rights and, you know, for that $130. But they did work for the company for 10 years before they decided to sue them. And they made the equivalent of $6 million in nine years. Actually, in the first nine years, they made over, if you were to adjust for inflation, $6 million doing Superman. That's a lot of money, you know, And. Yes. Should they have gotten more? Yes. Should. Should national periodical in D.C. Basically morally have given. Yes.
17:34
Ed
But at the same token, you know, they did make money doing it, and they did sell the rights. And that's an unfortunate part of it. But that doesn't take away from these poor men being destitute by the end of their life and needing something to happen to change that. I mean, so that's the other side of the thing. You cannot argue against that. They should have had something more, given how much money Superman made over the decades, in my opinion.
17:57
Case
Yeah, yeah. And I think you. You did a very good job of getting all the. The voices that really were pushing for it. I mean, it. I, I think it was like, for example, like, a great section on, like, Neil Adams support for them in it all, like, and really conveyed, like, how much, like, this person, like, really rode for them, you know, how much he, you know, you'll. He. He caped for them in that situation.
18:22
Ed
He did. He really did. It's. No, it's an astounding piece of the history. It really is. And their story weaves in and out of the history. You Know, because J work for DC again in the late 50s and early 60s. He's working there until he decides to sue again, and then he gets fired again, and that's the end of it until the Neil Adams situation, you know, so it's interesting how it weaves in and out of the history as the history is progressing.
18:45
Case
Yeah. And of course, there's that whole period where D.C. Wasn't even allowed to say, or to say, Schuster and Siegel.
18:52
Ed
Oh, yeah. People didn't even know who they were at a certain point. You know, once you get to the 70s and stuff, people even know who Siegel and Schuster were. Neal Adams did. But, you know, a lot of people didn't because their names have been stripped from everything. So that's why I say I think it's great that they got it back. And, you know, you watch Superman and Lois, you watch my Adventures with Superman, Whatever. There it is. Characters created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shoes. Yeah, that's wonderful.
19:16
Case
So, yeah, it's kind of a happy ending. It's nice that some of those are not, you know, horrible stories. Like. Well, yeah, it would have been better if it happened earlier in their lives, but.
19:30
Ed
Exactly. But they didn't die not being recognized for who they were. And I think that's important that they got the recognition finally as the creators of this character that has, you know, been alive. You know, I say this all the time, but it's true. Since 1938, there has not been a decade without some form of Superman in production. That's insane. You know, started with the radio show in 1940. Here we are in 20, getting ready for 2025, and the new Superman movie is coming out. I mean, that's crazy to me, that something could be in some form of production for every single decade. Not saying every year, but every decade since that character was created. So whether it's Broadway or cartoons or whatever.
20:12
Case
Yeah. It's been an enduring legacy. On the Zeitgeist, on that note. Was there. So what was the first thing that you discovered in doing this research that surprised you the most? I'm sure you came into it with your preconceived notions of what the story of Superman was. And then, you know, what. What's the first. What was the first, like, zinger that. That you encountered?
20:35
Ed
Well, I think it was. Again, I hate to harp on it, but the whole Seal Schuster thing, I didn't know that much about it going in. I really didn't. And those were the zingers for me, because, like, learning the ins and outs of it. And really looking at, like, you know, letters back and forth, I was gonna say emails, but that didn't exist. Letters back and forth between these national periodicals and Jerry Siegel and all that stuff, that, to me, was fascinating. And then talking to people who really studied that stuff, those papers, those court cases and getting their views of what went on, that, to me, was the most shocking thing.
21:07
Ed
Everything else, I mean, I have to be honest, I had a pretty good knowledge of the history of the character, so there wasn't a lot of that way that was going to shock me, you know, in terms of the production and stuff. The comic history, all of that stuff is, was pretty straightforward to me, because those sort of digging deeper into those things like Siegel and Schuster and speaking to people about that whole situation, that's the thing that really was like, the shock for me. Those man. Or shock's the right word, but a very surprising learning as much as I did about it. And whereas the rest of the history, like I say, I had a pretty good working knowledge of it, basically. So nothing really blew me away, per se, that way.
21:44
Case
Okay, that makes sense. I mean, for example, like, I, I, I recently finished the book, and when I was reading through the section on the making of the movies, I was just, like, chuckling to myself as we get into anyone discussing just, like, how corrupt by this behind the scenes the Salkins were, because, oh, there's that, you know.
22:03
Ed
And, you know, what's funny is, like, because I interviewed Donner prior to ever starting this book. I mean, I'm talking back in the 80s. I interviewed Richard Donner, and so he told me a lot of this stuff about the Salkinds. And of course, once you, you know, you dig a little deeper and you get corroboration from other people talking about what the situation was like with them, that you have a Salkheim clause in contracts. Because, you know, saying how many movies an actor is making because of what they did with the, you know, shooting the Three Musketeers are saying, let's make two movies out of it. And then now after that, every, you know, now every movie has, I think they call it the Salkheim.
22:38
Case
They do. Yeah.
22:39
Ed
Yeah. So, so that to me is, yeah, so that's quite a story there. But again, I knew a lot of it. Yeah. You know, I, as a little, as a quick tangent, you know, my introduction to Donner was. I was supposed to go into Manhattan. I was living on Long Island. I was supposed to go to Manhattan, interview him for Lethal weapon. Back in 87. And I got, like, this huge fever, and I couldn't go in. So I called the publicist and said, you know, I'm so very sorry, I can't make it in. And I'm sitting there in my little basement apartment. Also, my phone rings, and, you know, Richard, Donna has that deep voice, you know, and he goes, is this Ed Gross? Yes. He goes, this is Dr. Donner.
23:14
Ed
I understand you're under the weather right now, so why don't we just talk on the phone? I was like, okay, we did. And that just started a whole, like, level of communication where I could keep reaching out to Dick whenever I needed to.
23:26
Case
So that's amazing.
23:27
Ed
It was funny. But Dr. Donner, I never forgot that 1987. And. And you get this booming voice to saying, it's Dr. Donner. That's great. I love that memory.
23:37
Case
That is so cool. It's amazing that you had these resources to draw on in the first place. I can't even imagine getting started without having, like you said, 40 years of interviewing people.
23:50
Ed
Yeah, I mean, Al Goff and Miles Miller for Smallville. Back at the beginning of Smallville, I mean, I spoke to them again for the book, but in the beginning, I did, I think, was the first interview with Al about Smallville. And I was stupid enough to say to him that, yeah, I think so. Yeah. I'm pretty sure I was one of the. If not the first, definitely one of the first couple that interviewed him. And I just remember it back then, and I listened to the audio evidence. It's still there. I was stupid enough to say, how are you doing a TV show with a Superman show without Superman? I don't see how that's going to work 10 years later. How stupid do I look?
24:25
Ed
But, you know, the nice thing is I can go back to these guys, you know, a decade, two decades later, and say, hey, I'm doing this book. You know, you mind taking some time to talk to me? And they usually make the time. Everybody said yes, except for one person, but everybody said yes.
24:39
Case
I'm assuming you can't say.
24:41
Ed
I mean, I can say it. He said no, but John Byrne didn't want to do it. You know, he's politely turned me down, by the way, but. But he's the one person I reached out to that I couldn't get. So, you know, okay, sorry.
24:54
Case
So what era of Superman would you say that you were most excited to sort of explore? Because I figure you probably did deep dives into sections at a time. And. So what era of Superman. Were you like, oh, I can't wait to jump into this, or did you just go through different phases of being like, oh, I'm in the George Reeve phase right now? Or like, oh, I'm doing the Christopher Reeve phase right now.
25:17
Ed
It really wasn't. I mean, the funny thing is with a book like this, you can't really worry about the phases, like saying, oh, I'm doing Christopher Reeve, George Reeves. Because these interviews are coming, like at different times, different people. It's not like you're finishing one section, okay, now I'm going to do interviews on such and such. So you're constantly getting like new interviews so your brain doesn't get to say, I'm just focused on Christopher Reeve right now, you know, until you're ready to really sit down and write that chapter. But at that point, all the interviews are done, you know what I mean? Or most of them are done. You just, you just add to them as they go on. So. So that's sort of the approach of the thing.
25:47
Ed
But that being said, I will say the two errors that I was excited about was the Christopher Reeve movies, to dig deeper into those, because, you know, those I. Christopher is, you know, they say, who's your favorite? Well, if I have to pick a favorite, Christopher is my favorite.
26:00
Case
I mean, he is the central character on the COVID of the book.
26:02
Ed
I mean. Yeah, I mean. Right, exactly. And. And he is. And you know, and I always say, and it's already become a cliche with me that I follow the S. So it's just like, there it is. You know, I go with wherever the Superman is, whoever's playing Superman, I go with him. I mean, I'm just. I get very excited just the fact that there's a Superman adventure to watch. I don't really worry myself with who's making and who's filming. I mean, who's starring in it. You do it. So the reef thing, though, was just fun to dig into thing because it's so important to me. I think the George Reeves section was very important to me because that was my first impression of Superman as a 5 year old was watching reruns of the Adventures of Superman. So that was really important to me.
26:39
Ed
The 90s was. Was also that whole period of the Nicholas Cage, Tim Burton, all that stuff before and after them. I had done some interviews when I used to be with Cinescape magazine and we would, you know, I would speak to Jonathan Lemkin, the screenwriter that was on at that time, and be fascinated by what they were trying to do, hoping they wouldn't get to do it in some ways because of the whole Tim Burton, Nicholas Cage thing, because it was just going to be so different from anything that had come before. So that was a fascinating period for me.
27:09
Ed
But the real excitement, I think, was just all told, telling this story, bringing this story from the beginning, before there was a Superman, to, you know, where were at that point when I finished the book, because obviously the history is still unfolding, so you can only go up to a certain point. But Superman and Lois is in the book. You know, the Snyderverse stuff is in the book. I got Zack Snyder. Well, that was later for the second book, for an hour. But the point is, so to me, the excitement was just knowing that I was telling this story in a way that I felt had never been told before. At least that was my driving thing. My, my thought, you know, approach was that nobody had quite done a book like this.
27:51
Ed
Nobody's certainly done an oral history, but that was the exciting for me. So it wasn't a particular period. It was just knowing that I was going to go from the beginning to the end, or as much as the end was by, you know, by deadline time.
28:02
Case
Right.
28:02
Ed
Basically, that was the thrill for me is knowing I was just telling this story that I've been dreaming of telling and having the opportunity to do it and having all the cooperation of all these different people that allowed me to do it. So if that's where I really say, if you were excited about anything, that was it. Just telling the whole story, I guess.
28:20
Case
On that note, what was your media diet while you were working on this? Were you watching a lot of Superman stuff or were you. Was it just, this is your work mode, and then when you're off, you're just enjoying whatever else, like, kind of things that you would, like, pay attention to?
28:34
Ed
Well, I try. You know, the problem with this is like, my work thing too. Like, you know, I work for a couple of websites as my day job. I'm an editor on them. And my problem is I have the TV on all the time, but I can't watch something unless it's news. I can't watch something I haven't seen already because then it distracts me and I have to, you know, I have to, like, I keep stopping and rewinding. Like, me, oh, my God, it's terrible. I can't watch. So. So when people say, hey, do you watch this show? Yes.
28:58
Ed
Like, no, I can't, because, you know, I'm working all the time and I can't really fit it in, but I would put on a lot of Superman stuff, you know, I mean, the funniest thing is when I finished Voices from Krypton and I finished Superman, the Definitive History, both times people would say to me, you never want to hear the name Superman again. Right? And I was just like, no. As soon as I finished the books, the first thing I did on both cases was just blast that John Williams theme, like as loud as my awesome system would go and like, ready to go again. I'm ready to write more on Superman now. I'm just trying to figure out how I'm doing or what I'm doing, but I'm ready to do more. I can't. I can't stop. It's an illness. It is.
29:35
Ed
What can it take? Yeah, look, but the thing is, and this is important for people to know too, it's not just Superman with me. It's Star Trek, it's the Beatles, it's James Bond, it's. But Superman's the biggest of them all for me. But there are all these obsessions that I got when I was a little kid. It's like a five year period in my life as a kid where I can say I was formed in those five years and it never changed because those things are the things I fell in love with then. Superman, Star Trek, Beatles, Dark Shadows, Planet of the Apes, the Universal monster movies, whatever it is. And here I am, you know, all these years later and have written books on most of those things. So the fascinations never went away.
30:15
Case
Yeah, I did want to like at some point, like cover that because you are living the life that like I kind of dream about. Because you're doing like all these like oral history books about all the topics that I freaking love. Like.
30:25
Ed
Right. Well, that's the thing. It's. Look, you know, there aren't a lot of people who get to say they love what they do. And I have been very blessed to say that for 40 years I have gotten up every day able to do what I want to do, which is do interviews, write about stuff. Like right now I focus on classic TV for womensworld.com and first for women.com I'm their senior entertainment editor. And every day is like getting in front of this, okay, who am I going to write about today? I'll, you know, pick a TV show, pick a star and do a profile, you know, that sort of thing. And with all the stuff that I fell in love with in the 60s, you know, I always say that My, you know, my wife and I debate this.
31:03
Ed
You know, they say you're a child of like the decade after you were born, you're a child of that decade because it really formed you, basically. Well, I was born in 1960 and I can look at 1967 to 1972, where I was in this apartment in Brooklyn with my family and I met new best, you know, friends that became my best friends and stuff. And were all into the same stuff. So all the things that I love now were formed then I was, I fell in love with those things. Then Superman when I was five, that we moved to this place. Like I said then, like I said, it was Dark Shadows or the Odd Couple came out in 1968. How a 10, 8 year old falls in love with the Odd Couple.
31:41
Ed
But I did at the movie, I mean, I just, I loved it and it never went away. And so all those things that were there, a lot of them are still coming back in new forms. So they never really went away. So, you know, Star Trek, you know, the J.J. Abrams verse, Kelvin Universe, whatever they want to call it, Planet of the Apes in these new versions. And of course Superman, I mean, you know, and James Bond and these things just keep going. So all these things I fell in love with as a child have followed me and gradually become a career. And that's pretty cool. I'm very excited about that because it means the world to me that I've been able to do this.
32:19
Case
One of the things that's awesome about that is you get to talk to people who are like, just like super enthusiastic about these niche topics or niche isn't the right term, nerd topics like that. You know, like, there's lots of people who love this stuff. So I guess here's a question.
32:35
Ed
Who is.
32:37
Case
Who stands out as the most surprising interview that you were able to get in all of these, like, not just the Superman book, just in general, like, who that was like excited to talk to you about a thing that you just never thought you would actually get to.
32:49
Ed
Boy, I mean, I hate to lump a bunch into one thing, but you know, I'm very friendly with Ron Moore who created Battlestar Galactica, the, you know, the remake of Battlestar Galactica, where the exciting I didn't expect to get at all is Ron, first of all spent like 14 hours total on the phone with me talking about Battlestar Galactica. Oh, wow. I mean, it's just crazy, right? But, but he took, he did the same thing when I was talking to him about Star Trek. We, you know, his view was. And a lot of these guys views. And this is the nice thing nobody's saying, I'm giving you 15 minutes, you better make it count because that's all you're getting. Almost everybody's attitude was, we'll do this until you get what you need. And that's astounding.
33:29
Ed
And then I pointed out Ron Moore because with the Galactica book, he sent an email out to the entire cast and crew, said, I'm cooperating with Ed Gross and Mark Altman on this oral history of Battlestar Galactica. If you know, if it's something you want to do, I would appreciate you cooperating with them. Everybody said, yes. We got the entire casting crew of Battlestar Galactica. That was unexpected to me because you said, you know, don't limit it to voices from Krypton. The fact that we got everybody and everybody was so enthusiastic to talk about this project, just made that book. I mean, it just, it was just amazing. And I never expected to have everybody say yes and everybody be willing to spend as much time talking about it as they did.
34:13
Case
That is amazing.
34:14
Jmike
That's awesome.
34:15
Case
Again, another. Another one of these nerd topics that I freaking love. And I'm so jealous that you, I mean, like, I, I'm grateful that I get to read the book. I guess the bigger point. Jealous that, that gets to be your profession?
34:31
Ed
Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, like I said, I've been lucky. I'm not rich, but I'm happy. You know, my wife, I have three sons and my wife and I, and we've been together for 37 years, we've managed to get by on this career. And her, you know what, she does too, so. And that's a wonderful thing. That again. Yeah. You know, I don't want to put too fine a point because it sounds like, well, all right, now he's bragging. I'm not, I'm not bragging at all. I'm actually expressing real, genuine gratitude that I've been able to do this. And people have seen the. Seen fit to hire me to do these things, be an editor on a magazine or website, whatever it is, and write these books. It's just incredible.
35:07
Case
So let's pivot now to the new book, which is coming out not Tuesday after we're recording this, but by the time this episode drops, it will be out for months. Just, just so that we're upfront about that part. Superman, the Definitive History. So how does that come about? Because You've already done Voices from Krypton. Where is. Where is that process, like, coming?
35:29
Ed
Well, I got approached because, I think because of voice. I mean, I was told it was because of voices from Krypton. They also had a very limited time. Initially when were doing this book, I was told we had a deadline of like four months, which was insane to try to do. And it became a lot longer than that. So, you know, it started off in four months. That was not just because of me, but because of production issues and everything. I was trying to pull together that book, which we can talk about in a minute, sort of what went into it. So I was approached by them, and I think because of the fact I had done voices and they knew I had, you know, sort of a ground floor of research done and interviews that were done.
36:03
Ed
But then I ended up doing just like it was with Voices from Krypton. I started with a ground floor of my own interviews and then had to do a ton more. The same thing happened here. It's like I started with interviews I had, but the book was approached very differently. So you needed the voices to be different and to say different things. And I was able to go back to a lot of those people and say, hey, you want to do another one? Yes, I'm doing another book. Somehow I'm doing another Superman book. That's sort of how it started. And then it was just, again, it became a very fun process of pulling it together. Together. You know, I. I co wrote the book with Bob Greenberger, and I did that.
36:39
Ed
I mean, and Bob says this too, so it's not like I'm telling anything out of. Out of school here. It's that we reached a point where I was looking at what they wanted from me for the content of the book. And when it came to the comic book history, they were looking for a kind of minutia that, given the original deadline, I never would have been able to give them, because I know the history of the comic, but I don't know it the way I know the production elements of Superman, you know, the various versions of him and different media. And so we then they contacted Bob and they got Bob in to do the comic section, which he did a phenomenal job on. And he really captures the entire history of that character in comic form.
37:16
Ed
So between the two of us, and I needed a lot of, like, there's like, features, I guess, or four page, you know, inserts whatever, of different aspects of Superman, like Smallville and talk about Metropolis and whatever it may be, and it just worked out that's how that started. And then it was just that once we hit the ground running, though, I mean, we had a. This book, like I said, initially only had a few months deadline, so were writing very quickly to it. But that was. This book is more in the narrative form that I'm used. I used to be used to writing books in before I fell in love with oral histories and became obsessed with them. So it was fun exercising that old muscle again, you know, that I hadn't done in 10 years, 15 years, in terms of a book.
37:56
Case
Yeah. I have to admit, I was so amazed when I saw that you had the new book coming out, because, I mean, voice, you know, I'm sorry that you had to go through a degree of crunch in that regard. Like, that's a thing that people, you know, generally are opposed to. But I am glad that did give you the chance to flex those muscles and to put out a more traditional sort of journalistic production.
38:23
Ed
And it was. And. But the beauty of this one is, I mean, here's the difference between official and unofficial, ladies and gentlemen. Unofficial has no photos because, you know, you don't have the rights to them. You can't use them as few illustrations, but they're done more in caricature form than anything else. And they have a couple of comic book covers, which is legal. You get to the official book, though, the Superman, the Definitive History. And this thing is loaded with incredible art. I mean, I'm talking comic art, production art, you know, pre production art, storyboards, advertisements, everything from this character's history is there. I mean, and the size of the thing is huge. It weighs about 16 pounds. I was told, oh, it's ridiculous. I pick it up.
39:02
Ed
It's not me more than 60, because I don't think I'm that weak when I pick it up and I have to go, oh, that's, you know, that's. That's heavy. And moving it, like I moved it for the other day from one room to another, and it was like, it was really heavy doing so. But it's oversized and it is just loaded with incredible art. And that's. That's exciting to be involved with that book and. And seeing it again, that story told in a way visually that it's never been able to be told before. That's exciting.
39:30
Case
So, yeah, I guess that makes sense. When. Because when were talking about this, I did look it up on Amazon. I was like, well, I'm gonna pre order the. The Kindle version, which is like 20 something bucks. How much is the physical copy? Oh, it's like 150. Oh, okay, cool.
39:46
Ed
But it could. But, you know, I'll tell you, man, it's. It's got. It's. I know that sounds crazy. And they definitely did it for, like, I think more of the collector's market. This version of it. There will be another version.
39:54
Case
Oh, it's on my Elfster. Like, Like, I fully intend for, like, one of my parents to, like, get that for me for, like, holidays. Cool.
40:01
Ed
As well you should. And that's the thing. I got one copy. That's all I'm getting, is one copy. That's how expensive the book is to produce. So as an author, I got one. Usually I'm used to getting like 10 copies of books I write, you know, initially, and then you can get the rest, you know, discount price. Okay, great. This was one copy. And right now that's all I'm getting. So that just shows you how expensive it was to produce this book because the retail is 175. Amazon's got it. I think. I know. Believe me, when I heard that, it's like, how many books do you think you're selling in? But apparently they're selling them. And it's worth it. I mean, really, if you have the money to buy it is worth it.
40:36
Ed
And Amazon's got for like 157, I think, or something like that. And the Kindle, like you said, though, it's like 1999. So, you know, that might be the way a lot of people go. I don't know. But, yeah, so that's. I kind of got lost there, but I think it's. But that's. That's sort of the big difference with this book.
40:54
Case
J. Mike, I've been asking most of the questions. What do you have anything?
40:59
Jmike
Well, I was going to say, like, did he have a favorite. Did he have a favorite Superman that he interviewed or he'd like to talk to the most? Because the C I'm looking forward for the first book is by Brendan Rouse. I was like.
41:10
Ed
And he wrote the introduction of the second book, too, which was kind of cool, and said something cool.
41:14
Jmike
Is he.
41:15
Ed
He's great. I mean, Brandon is. You know, I've. I've gotten to know him a little bit, and. And we've spoken a number of times and, you know, through the years, and then when the books came up, you know, then we did zoom conversations for both books. And he's great because what I like about him so much Is that. I'm not saying he walks around pretending to be Superman in terms of embodying the principles of Superman, but if you listen, watch him on stage, you talk to him one one, he just conveys the powerful messages of the character, of inspiring people, of trying to reach people, of, you know, just being. Being real and looking at what that character represents. And I really do believe he was touched by what Superman represents to so many people, and he tries to convey that to others.
42:04
Ed
I mean, I saw him interacting at, you know, at Superman celebration last year. There's a handicap kid in. In, you know, and he was there crouched down, talking to this kid and making that kid's day. I mean, I watched this kid light up as he interacted with him, and it was just wonderful to see. And that's how he is with people. He doesn't. You do not feel that he's putting on an act, you know, that he. This is something he genuinely feels. And it's wonderful. Wonderful. It's really wonderful to see.
42:30
Case
That's so cool.
42:31
Jmike
Awesome. Because, like, within, like the. The culture is that guys, the Superman movies, it feels like his movie is kind of, like, forgotten about sometimes. So it's cool to see, like, him actually, like, portraying that character out in the open and actually like seeing what it means to be Superman to everybody who wants it.
42:48
Ed
Oh, no. And also getting the chance to reprise the characters he did in Crisis infinite Earth. To him, that was like the, you know, going back, in a way, and it closed the door, so to speak up for him personally, that it wasn't unfinished business with Superman when he got to do it again and it meant the world to him to do it again. And. And the reaction. Look at the reaction you say. I mean, your point is valid about Superman Returns kind of getting forgotten, but look at the response he got as Superman. So obviously people remembered because people were so excited about seeing him back in the role, you know. And again, John Williams theme playing he's there in the costume with. With Tyler Hoagland as. As Superman. Just an awesome, you know, fanboy moment, right?
43:33
Ed
It's like, oh, my God, he's black. You know, when he says, what's the line? He says, the thing is, oh, it's not the first time I've gone crazy and fought myself.
43:42
Case
Right.
43:43
Ed
Which is beautiful. Tying to Superman 3, which. It wasn't him, but it didn't matter. It's the same Superman. So it was just. Was cool. And watching it was just a thrill, you know, and then getting to talk to him. About it was just even better. So there you go.
43:56
Jmike
Okay.
44:00
Ed
I mean, I've spoken to a number of the supermen, but not, you know, certainly Christopher Reeva, I never spoke to before he passed away, unfortunately. But, you know, I spoke to Dean Kane. I spoke to many of the voice actors who have. Who have played Superman.
44:13
Jmike
Have you talked to George Newburn?
44:15
Ed
I have, I have, yeah. Tim Daly, George Newbern, all these guys I was able to speak to. And that was exciting, you know, And Henry Cavill. My first exposure to Henry Cavill was he was making a movie called Legends. And I was one of, like, 30 journalists who have been flown to the set. And we're in a trailer interviewing him, and he comes in, and I'm sitting there, and this is. This is where I know I am still such a geek. It doesn't matter. He got. Again, this is before man of Steel, and he comes into the trailer and he's got armor on, and he's looking really buffed up, and his hair is black, and he happens to have a curl coming down on his head.
44:53
Ed
And as he's talking to us, I'm staring at this guy thinking to myself like a little kid saying, it's Superman. I mean, it was. It was this feeling that I was looking at Superman the way he looked. I mean, there had been, you know, rumors and stuff that he might be approached, but then to hear him, see him in man of Steel and, you know that he was casting it and see the movie, and I got to interview him for that, too. It's just amazing, because I thought he was a great Superman. I'm not saying all his material was perfect for him, but it certainly. He was a great Superman. He really played that character well. So it's just very cool to know that. I've spoken to a number of the actors who have played him, so that was.
45:31
Ed
That was pretty cool for me.
45:33
Case
Yeah, pretty freaking cool. Living the life in the life.
45:38
Ed
It's just fun. I mean, it really is. I still enjoy. Every time I do one of these interviews. I'm thrilled.
45:44
Case
So, Ed, what is next for you? Right now you've got this book coming out in two days from when we're recording this, but again, months in the past from when this is actually coming out. But what else have you got on the horizon?
45:56
Ed
I mean, right now I'm trying to get a few other book projects going. There's one for inside editions that I can't talk about in terms of specifics, but the one that looks good and it'll Be another one of my favorite. Nothing I've mentioned tonight, actually, but it's another one of my favorite things movie wise. And if I get the chance to write the official story of it, that'll be another like dream come true. To do that, I'm finishing up volume two of an oral history of Planet of the Apes which I've co written. Volume one's out now, has been out for a few months. I was supposed to have this one done already. It's not, but it's almost done, so. So I've got the second volume, the Planet of the Apes and a few other things.
46:32
Ed
And yes, I am dabbling in some Superman stuff again, can't really talk about it because it's not solid enough. But I am looking at doing more writing about Superman because it is an illness, as I said earlier, and I have no cure.
46:44
Case
So kryptonite poisoning.
46:45
Ed
Keep writing about it, whatever you want to call it's there. And you know, one thing I do want to mention about this is the fact that every person I interviewed, and it was the same like I was saying earlier about the Galactica cast being so into it. The beauty of the Superman books. Of everybody I interviewed, there was not a single person that didn't want to talk about the character. Not saying what their experience with the character, not saying that everything was roses, you know, when they did their thing. But it didn't matter. They were so enthusiastic about talking about the character and talking about the history that they were a part of, basically. I mean, I did an interview with Kevin Smith back. This was back when man of Steel came out.
47:26
Ed
He done a promotional thing is how does he shave for Gillette. It was like, how does he shave his beard? Right? So in that conversation with him, I mentioned, oh yeah, when I was a kid, you know, I used to play Superman with my friends. I was Superman, my friend was Lex Luthor. And he came up with a thing called kryptonite gum. And he put it in my. Pretend to put it in my hair and say, oh, he's got kryptonite gum. And. And Kevin Smith laughed and you know, we're ready. I'm ready to move on, right? He wasn't. He says, he goes, wait a minute. He goes, you got that gum in his hair. Crypto like gum, man. He's, he's got to get it out. What's he gonna do?
47:59
Ed
It's like frying his brain as he's trying to come up with a solution to get that gum out of his Hair. Okay. I didn't go that far.
48:09
Case
Cut out the hair. The hair is super solid still.
48:12
Ed
Exactly. So it's frying his brains. What are you gonna do? Get peanut butter to get it out of me? What are you gonna do? So, but the fact that Kevin. Kevin Smith took it and ran with it, I thought was great. It was just again, that enthusiasm. Right, that fanboy enthusiasm. But everybody had that and that was incredible. Incredible. That I never expected. I figured some people, like, yeah, you know, yeah, I was involved with Superman, you know, whatever, but nah, everybody was so excited to be a part of this character's legacy.
48:40
Case
Yeah. You can really, you can really tell when reading the book that there. There's so many people contributing. You know, obviously not the, you know, the canned interviews that are from the past, but like the people who you speak to that are more modern. Like, there's so much enthusiasm coming through about the character.
48:57
Ed
Yeah. And that was across the board. I mean, I'm telling you, there was not one person I spoke to for either book that. That made it sound like, you know, it was. I was pulling them through hell trying to get them to talk about their experience. It was all so enthusiastic because I do think they recognize. Again, I use keyboard using the word legacy, but it is the character's legacy to be a part of it. You know, I always say that to people like, you know, you played even the small part, but you are forever now linked. It's like George Lazenby playing James Bond in one movie. Right. But he's part of the James Bond history. He always will be. And it's the same thing with each one of these people who have worked in some capacity on Superman.
49:36
Ed
They are a part of that legacy that will now has gone on 86 years and looks like it's still going to go for a long time. Hopefully.
49:44
Case
Well, Ed, gotta tell you, I love voices from Krypton. I'm so excited for Superman, the definitive history. Where can people find you and follow you to find out about all the projects you've got going on?
49:56
Ed
Well, I've got Ed Gross, writer dot com. I mean, that's my website, basically my blog on Facebook. I'm now on Blue sky and just starting to build that one. It's like, oh, I've got, you know, 25 followers. That's great. This new thing that I just joined. So. But yeah, so. So those are the places I'm at. And like I say it earlier, I am constantly writing about classic TV on womensworld.com and first for women. That's sort of my current gig that I, you know, my day job, so to speak. Yeah, so. So I'm still out there. I mean, somehow after all these years of doing this, I'm still out there, which is mind blowing to me, but I'm there.
50:33
Case
Awesome. Well, again, thank you for coming on and it was a delight chatting with you both for the book. But then to have you come back on for today, really great. I hope we can get you on again to talk maybe about a Superman story or something else that. That you just want to chat about sometime because.
50:51
Ed
Absolutely.
50:51
Case
You've got such a wealth of insider knowledge and perspective on all this.
50:57
Ed
I'd love to be back. Just let me know.
50:58
Case
Yeah. J Mike, where can people find you and follow you?
51:01
Jmike
I have officially switched over to BlueSky. So you can find me at J5BlueSky, whatever the rest of that part is. I'm slowly integrating. It's a pretty cool party over there so far and I'm having a blast.
51:16
Case
As am I. You can also find me on the Blueski Aiken. It's a good time over there. A lot of comics Twitter has migrated that way, so it's a great time at the moment. Should check that out. You should also check out our Discord server for certain pov. You can find a link, the description of our episodes or all over the Internet. Like we try to post that everywhere. Come join and interact with us directly. We don't bite. We're rather quite nice and I really enjoyed the conversations that we have going on there. On that note, we a while back announced that were going to be doing a giveaway for copies of Ed's book when he finally came on. And I have to admit I lost all the people who submitted at the time.
52:01
Case
This was because this was months ago and I'm very certain that I was dad brained out like crazy at the time. So here's the deal. I've got three copies that I'm giving away if the first three people to DM me on Discord will get those copies. So there you go. I'm sorry that we're restarting the contest, but I just can't find. I know people message me but I just cannot find the info and it wasn't that many. So we're just going to do it that way. But yeah. So Discord, it's a fun place. Meanwhile, you should check out some of the other shows on our network.
52:33
Case
I am going to plug my own show at the moment because Ed just was talking about Planet of the Apes and that makes me think about how I did a five part Planet of the Apes retrospective of looking at the original series over on Another Pass, which is a movie analysis show where my co host Sam Alice and I look at movies from the perspective of when they were created and discuss what could have been done to make it a tighter movie. Or in the case of every five episodes we look at how through creativity people overcame the adversity of the production to basically create a proof of concept of what the main show is about. So check that out. It's a really fun show that I've been doing for God, 170 some episodes at this point.
53:13
Case
So it's a really good time there as well. And if you've been listening to this show but never checking out another pass, that's a surprise. You should check that out. It's the one that I've been doing for a really long time and is not quite so niche a topic. But anyway, aside from that, you can find me on the blue ski, you can find me on all the other AT base symbol platforms and then you should circle black for our next episode. But until then, stay super man.
53:48
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Fsen and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Ricciardi. Our logo is by Chris Batista and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our theme is by Jeff Moonan.
54:08
Case
Hey Nerf herders, you sure you want.
54:10
Ed
To go with that?
54:11
Case
Hey everyone.
54:13
Ed
There we go. More inviting.
54:15
Case
Have you ever had a movie that you really wanted to love but something holds you back or one that you did love in spite of a flaw? Well, I'm Kate Sagan.
54:23
Ed
And I'm Sam Alicea.
54:25
Case
And on Another Pass, we sit down with cool guests to look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. And we try to imagine what could have been done when they were made to give them that little push. We're not experts, we just believe in criticism. Constructive criticism, sure. So come take another pass at some movies with us. And every now and then we can celebrate movies that did it on their own too. You can find us@crediblepov.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Pass it on cpov certainpov.com.