Episode 145 - Thunderbolts* with Joe Mastropiero

Marvel's Most Wanted are here to deliver some Justice like Lightning! Case and Jmike reflect on the latest MCU entry, Thunderbolts*, with friend of the show, Joe Mastropiero.

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Overview

In the latest episode of the podcast, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson, along with guest Joe Mastropiero, delve into Marvel's Thunderbolts movie, connecting its themes to the recently released Superman trailer. They discuss the film's characters, including Yelena, Bucky, and the controversial Sentry, addressing how the characters' darker backstories lend themselves to a redemption arc that deviates from their comic origins. The hosts explore the movie's structure, its exploration of trauma through the lens of the Void character, and the significance of the Superman archetype in modern storytelling, highlighting a potential cultural shift towards more hopeful narratives. The episode concludes with updates about the podcast, including upcoming episodes and ways for listeners to engage through Discord and Patreon, while emphasizing the importance of community interaction in discussing these themes.

Notes

Introduction and Superman Trailer Discussion (00:00 - 15:45)

• Hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson welcome guest Joe Mastropiero to discuss Marvel's Thunderbolts movie

• The hosts explained the Superman connection to Thunderbolts: the Sentry character is a Superman analog

• The group discussed the recently released Superman trailer featuring David Corenswet

• Logan Crowley provided audio commentary praising the trailer's rural American portrayal of the Kents

• The trailer shows Lois Lane interviewing Clark Kent and Superman's moral conflict with authority figures

• Group discussed potential Justice Society appearance and Nicholas Hoult as Lex Luthor

Thunderbolts Team History and Setup (15:46 - 29:34)

• Original Thunderbolts comic (1996) featured villains disguised as heroes after mainstream heroes disappeared

• The comic team was led by Baron Zemo with members including Moonstone, Atlas, Mach 1, and Songbird

• The team evolved over time from redemption-seeking villains to government ops team (similar to Suicide Squad)

• The movie roster differs significantly from comic versions, causing initial fan confusion

• The Sentry character is a controversial Superman analog with bipolar disorder and a dark alter ego called 'The Void'

• The Sentry has extreme power levels that create storytelling challenges in the Marvel universe

Movie Characters Review: Part 1 (29:35 - 49:41)

• Yelena (Florence Pugh): Burned-out assassin who serves as the audience viewpoint character

• Bucky (Sebastian Stan): Former Winter Soldier, moved away from his congressman storyline

• Red Guardian (David Harbour): Soviet super-soldier who brings enthusiasm and comic relief

• Ghost (Hannah John-Kamen): Character with phasing abilities who had plot elements removed

• Taskmaster: Briefly appears in the film but is killed early to establish stakes

• All characters are government-created weapons now without masters, seeking purpose

Movie Characters Review: Part 2 (49:42 - 01:00:08)

• US Agent (Wyatt Russell): Portrayed as a physically powerful but unlikeable douchebag

• Val (Julia Louis-Dreyfus): Manipulative politician/spymaster who brings the team together

• Mel: Character who unexpectedly survives despite seeming setup for death

• Bob/Sentry (Lewis Pullman): Mild-mannered man who transforms into the golden-costumed Sentry

• The Void manifestation was effectively portrayed through shadow effects and 'Hiroshima-style shadows'

• The film effectively handles Sentry's extreme power levels by keeping him sidelined for most of the story

️ Movie Structure and Themes (01:00:10 - 01:10:23)

• Film has strong setup and payoff elements with well-structured action sequences

• Team is brought together when 'they are the evidence' that needs to be eliminated

• The movie differs from expectations of being a Suicide Squad-type government contract story

• The Void serves as vehicle for showing characters' trauma and psychological issues

• Despite differences from comics, film maintains core theme of redemption for characters with dark pasts

• Characters take on 'New Avengers' name by the end, connecting to comic history

Superman Archetype Discussion (01:10:26 - 01:21:42)

• Discussion about why both dark and hopeful Superman archetypes resonate with audiences

• Joe highlighted importance of Superman's moral compass coming from supportive family/community

• Dark Superman versions explore 'what if' scenarios without those support structures

• The group noted a possible cultural shift toward desiring more hopeful superhero stories after a period of darker interpretations

• Century briefly shows Superman-like qualities before reverting to darker nature

• Film effectively portrays the burden of power on someone with mental health issues

Show Updates and Promotion (01:21:43 - 01:27:49)

• Case announced upcoming Men of Steel episodes (#146-150) including Hulk vs Superman and Supergirl from Krypton

• The hosts promoted their Discord community as the best way for listeners to interact with them

• Men of Steel now has a Patreon at patreon.com/certainpovmedia with various support tiers

• Case thanked their first ten executive producer-level supporters by name

• Carter Hallett

• Sean Muir

• Lee Greger

• Memento Young

• Logan Crowley

• Joe Mastropiero

• Casey Aiken

• Nancy Aiken

• Adam Samtur

• Keith Lehtinen

• Case mentioned writing essays for Patreon subscribers (even at free tier)

• Final promotion for 'We Have Issues' podcast reviewing weekly comic releases

Action items

Listeners

• Join the Men of Steel Discord to interact with hosts and discuss the Superman trailer and Thunderbolts (01:21:42)

• Check out and possibly support the show's new Patreon at patreon.com/certainpovmedia (01:23:07)

Case Aiken

• Schedule essay releases more consistently on Patreon going forward (01:25:57)

• Complete and release the Naomi episode that was previously mentioned

Transcription

00:00
Case
But. But thank you for. For being here. Thank you for. For giving us this excuse to chat about this movie because, like, I wanted to chat this movie, like, it. It. It is Superman adjacent enough that it was worth us talking about. So, yeah, let's. Let's. Let's do it. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Jmike Folson.

00:31
Jmike
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Glad to have you.

00:35
Case
Yeah, glad to have everyone here. This is a good situation, a situation where everyone is happy to be here, which is not related to the movie that we're talking about today, because today we're talking about the movie where everyone is perennially pissed off to be in the room together. We are talking about Thunderbolts from Marvel. And to have that conversation, we're joined by Joe Mastropiero.

00:57
Joe
Hey, y' all. Thanks for having me. Super happy to be here.

00:59
Case
Joe, welcome to Men of Steel. We're so glad to get you on here. You have been a wonderful fan of the show, as we'll go into detail later on, but you've also been a fan of the network and have been a regular contributor to our Discord server. So it's great to actually get you on Men of Steel.

01:18
Joe
Yeah, thanks, man. I'm actually really excited to talk about Thunderbolts and about the way it ties into Men of Steel.

01:27
Case
Yeah. Yeah. This is the kind of movie that we'll get into. Why. The reasons why. It makes a lot of sense to be in a conversation about a Superman podcast in a moment, just in case anyone has avoided the spoilers so far and it's still, like, new enough. There will be spoilers in this whole thing. And so we'll. We'll get into that whole conversation. I do want to take a minute because this is one of the rare times that we're actually, like, putting an episode out kind of ahead of schedule. Like this. This is going to be episode 145. Last night, we recorded episode 150.

02:01
Jmike
Case. Spoilers.

02:02
Case
Pastime is weird.

02:03
Jmike
Spoilers. Case. Oh, my.

02:04
Case
Yeah, we actually have the benefit of this coming out in a timely fashion, which means that we can talk about a little bit of news that happened recently, and that is that the first official full trailer, as opposed to the, like, what, three teasers or two teasers that we got?

02:19
Jmike
Two teasers.

02:20
Case
Yeah, two teasers. Yeah. The first full trailer for Superman came out, and we want to talk about that. Right?

02:30
Speaker 4
Episode one.

02:31
Case
A lot of People want to talk about that, including, we put out the call on Discord, and our friend Logan chimed in as well with a little bit. So we're going to play a clip actually from Logan and then we're going to just talk about the trailer for a minute before we get into the episode's topic. So here is Logan Crowley with his thoughts on the Superman trailer.

02:52
Speaker 4
Hey, Case, this is Logan. All right. Thoughts on the Superman trailer.

02:57
Case
Wow.

02:57
Speaker 4
I just. Glowing, effusive love. I guess right off the bat I was so happy with the colors of all these trailers are the biggest thing that I think I keep coming back to as just like, this is gorgeous. This is perfect. I feel like there is a very intentional decision to make the colors in this movie look like the way DC Comics were inked post crisis in the 80s. And you can tell me if I'm crazy on this, but I feel like if you look at the frames of this trailer and you look at John Byrne art from man of steel or Kevin McGuire Art from Justice League International, it just so captures that palette. And I don't think that's getting enough attention and enough praise.

03:55
Case
God.

03:55
Speaker 4
And I am so excited in here for actually rural Jonathan and Martha Kent. I'll get your boots. Was the. That sounded like it could have come right out of my grandmother's mouth. And as a guy who grew up in a farming town, like, and as a fan, and I'm a fan of Superman because he is the only superhero that is that rural American that the home he grew up in looked like the one that I grew up in. That was so important to me to finally see that because that has been, I think, a neglected part of adaptations for so long. You get it a lot in the comics, but a lot of times in the movies, they. They tend to shy away from that.

04:44
Speaker 4
And if they do it, it's sort of like Zack Snyder did where like they go home and he has a horse and buggy for his funeral. Like, why do the Kents have a horse drawn carriage that looks like it time traveled here? I don't. I'm really not a Man of Steel hater. But. But that kind of thing has always frustrated me about presentations of the Kents. And from the minute I saw that gun was putting them in a converted trailer, which is so many. The homes of me, my parents live in a double wide, you know, like a nice double wide, which is something that I think if you're not from the parts of the country like me and Superman are from, that might sound like an oxymoron to you.

05:32
Speaker 4
But to me, seeing them live in a nice converted double wide that is well taken care of was just one of those little things where I was like, God, that is. That is perfect. That is the Superman version I have been waiting to see for my entire life. And this trailer also showed me that I think Coren Sweat is going to wear that cape so well. I think he cuts such a great Superman silhouette. I think the trailer is honestly maybe good enough to just give Brosnahan best lowest Lane ever. I know that sounds like crazy hyperbole, but just in that brief performance, I mean, I. I think she's the best Lois Lane casting we've ever seen. I just. Glowing praise, glowing praise. I. Are there things I could nitpick and be frustrated by? Yes.

06:24
Speaker 4
But you're only going to have so much time to play this audio clip, so I'm just going to use it on being positive. God, I can't wait for this movie. I'm so excited that it and Fantastic Four come out on my birthday. Just love it and thank you for this opportunity also. I can't wait to see you guys next time.

06:44
Case
And we're back. So the thing I love about Logan's insight into it is that he is coming from a more rural background. So there's a lot of the things about the character hints that really stand out.

06:54
Jmike
Yeah.

06:55
Case
That don't necessarily immediately jump out to me. And I. I love his appreciation of that detail and the fact that this movie is getting into that detail. Like, the Ma and Pa Kent look. Very true. But they don't look like Ma and Pa Kent have ever looked before. Right.

07:10
Jmike
Yeah. Like, I was like, that brought into a conversation of like, I know this is like early Superman, but like, is it like year two, year three? Like, how's it up? Because they look a little bit older than I thought they would look from the trailer. I want to say I thought it would be a little bit younger, but, like, they look like towards the end of the line for them, almost.

07:38
Case
Well, that. I mean, that's pretty consistent for a lot of Superman lore. I mean, the. The original Superman stuff has his parents dying of old age before he even gets, like, out there. You know, I. I think they do a good job of having them look like a, you know, like a. A lower income family in middle America. Like, I. It's doing a really good job of just like, not looking. I mean, as much as I love Smallville, like, they, like, they. It's. There's some really pretty parents of Superman in that. That show.

08:13
Jmike
What do you mean?

08:15
Case
Dukes of Hazard and former la.

08:20
Jmike
I was also hoping that we could see a little bit more of the farm, too, but that was just me.

08:25
Case
Yeah, I. I was kind of hoping for, like, a good shot. Kind of like in. In Superman Returns where. Where we get, like, the big. The big, like, sweeping shot of the farm.

08:34
Jmike
Yeah.

08:35
Case
Which. Which we don't so much here. We do get a lot of good detail. Like, we get Lois in a way that we haven't so far. And it opens on that, which I think is really good.

08:47
Jmike
Yeah. We haven't had, like, her do that since, like, the first Superman movie, basically, which is a great thing.

08:55
Case
Much more modern, like, updated take on it. She's asking really hard questions and he's squirming, which is a great detail. We also get, like, a. A chance to see corn sweat, like, do, like, the difference between Clark.

09:12
Speaker 4
Yeah.

09:12
Case
And Superman. And, like, that's a really, like, his lean forward and shifting into Superman mode is. Is really good right there.

09:18
Joe
Yeah. I was really impressed with the way he shifts his voice up and down depending on who he was trying to portray at the time. And talking about that interview, I really did enjoy how it started to fall away when he kept getting asked these really difficult questions by Lois.

09:37
Case
Right. And. And that sets up what is going to be. I think, one of the big conflicts of this movie, how Superman doing the right thing is stepping on people's toes.

09:48
Joe
Yeah.

09:49
Jmike
I feel like that's where we're going to get the major butting of the heads with, like, GL and Mr. Terrific and Hot Girl. Because the Justice Society is going to be like, yeah, you can't do that. There are rules, regulations. He's like, no, it's got to do these things to help people.

10:07
Joe
Because in the trailer, you can already kind of see that there's moments where they're wearing monogrammed decals, the three of them. So there's definitely some sort of group already there. And he's gonna be the one, like, trying to deal with them while also trying to keep everybody safe.

10:24
Case
Yeah. And so in that regard, we got a look at more of these heroes. We got to see, like, Guy Gardner, Green Lantern looks good using his power ring, which looks awesome. I mean, we saw him do, like, an energy blast before, but, like, we got to see him do, like, a very, like, douchebaggy, like, hand wave gesture with it, which is great because, like, it shows that they're paying attention to the type of character that Guy Gardner is supposed to be. I'm excited there. So is Lex Luthor the President of the United States?

10:56
Jmike
No, I don't think so.

10:58
Case
They have a line that super feels like it, where it's like, did you check with the President? And they're like, it's cut to Lex Luthor right at that moment.

11:07
Joe
It cuts to him, but I don't know if he would still be in his. In his tower, if he would be. If he would be in the Oval Office more often. Like, there would be. It's possibly. Maybe he's running.

11:20
Jmike
That's super early, though. Like, please don't do that this early. Please don't do that this early.

11:27
Case
Without a doubt, Lex Luthor at least has the president's ear, if he's not actually playing the president. But it is interesting that they. They do that little. That little cutaway. And of course, everyone knows, like, the whole joke about, like, Lex Luthor versus, like, real presidents who are, like, insanely corrupt. Lex Luthor actually, like, divested himself because of the emoluments clause, whereas, say, I don't know, other presidents have decided not to do that because there are no rules, apparently, in this world.

11:54
Jmike
I did have. I did have a slight question, though. So with the Justice Society, and, like, they kept hinting that, like, you know, you can't do that. There are rules and everything. I was like, wait, is the Justice Society, like, a branch of, like, the military at this point? Or, like, are they, like, a faction that works with the government to do certain things?

12:13
Case
Well, we don't know exactly what organization this is. Like, is it the Terrifics? Is it the Society? Is it the Justice League? Is it Justice League International? As opposed to, like, Justice League of America? You know, like, what. What version are we looking at here? I don't know. It does seem that they are, at the very least, like, towing the. The status quo, and Superman is bucking it.

12:38
Jmike
I will say this, and I hope if James Gunn ever hears this episode, that now that we have Hawkgirl, please make it the. The Thanagarian hawk girl and not the Egyptian hot girl, because that means, you know, we can might possibly down the road, have a Thanagarian invasion happen that would be great to see on the big screen. Everything. But that's just me. No one likes the Egyptian version. Just stick with Thanagarian version.

13:09
Case
Oh, come on. There's plenty to love about the Egyptian version.

13:11
Jmike
No, no.

13:15
Case
No, no, no. So great music in this trailer. I was very excited about it. Still. Still echoing back to The Christopher Reeve theme, like the John Williams theme, but very updated. I loved the like string section when it's like you stopped a war and it like is showing like the slow mo, but like with these really like fast strings for it. Like, really excellent use of that. Like, got my heart racing in those shots. Like, just very happy with the. The way action is being conveyed in this trailer. Very quotable, by the way. Like, I've. I've watched this enough that now I'm like pre saying lines like the. Hey, buddy, eyes up here. Like, and then like flying off into space. And it's like, it's not a superman. It's not a man. It's an. It.

14:06
Jmike
Somehow captivated the entire conscience of the world. I was like, oh, this is going to be good.

14:12
Case
Yeah. Nicholas Halt. I was not like, really like chomping at the bit for him as Lex Luthor. I know a lot of people were like, I know a lot of people like him. But like, I, I honestly think that this just comes down to like when he and Jennifer Lawrence broke up. I like, sided with Jennifer Lawrence in the breakup.

14:31
Joe
I gotcha.

14:34
Case
But I thought he looked pretty good in this and his delivery was like, very good at doing an all star, Superman esque take on Lex Luthor.

14:41
Joe
Yeah, definitely. I've been a fan of his. I really liked the way he was in Nosferatu and I feel like he has the chops to do it. And I don't think he's afraid to be that kind of character on screen either. So I'm looking forward to Ron. I think he'll do a good job.

15:02
Case
Yeah. Superman fans are eating right now. We've got what looks like a really good movie. Certainly has the pedigree to be a really good movie. We have just gotten off of a really great live action series and we have a currently running really great animated.

15:17
Jmike
Series, season three coming up hopefully this summer. Right?

15:21
Case
Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. And we're getting enough good stuff that it actually makes sense to do kind of commentaries on the Superman archetype. We're seeing that with Invincible. We're seeing that with the boys. And now circling around to the movie that we're talking about today. This is your last chance. This is your last chance. We're gonna start doing spoilers right about now. Right about now. Yeah. So anyway, the. Obviously we're gonna talk about thunderbolts because obviously we have to because the goddamn sentry is in this movie.

16:00
Jmike
What? No.

16:05
Joe
What about Bob?

16:08
Case
What about Bob? So let's back off before we get into discussing the movie and how they sentry in it. I want to talk about thunderbolts as a property, and I want to talk about the sentry as a character. So Joe and J. Mike, how familiar are you with the thunderbolts?

16:25
Jmike
Not very.

16:27
Joe
Yeah, I mean, I knew of them up until now. I knew that there was the Red Hulk team. I didn't know exactly how far back it went, but I always knew it comprised usually antiheroes or. Or villains very similarly to something like Suicide Squad, but I never really looked too deeply into it before.

16:50
Case
Yeah. So the original team goes back to the 90s, around. I want to say around 96. I forget the exact year, but it was right after the onslaught story in X Men, which is a story where all of the mainstream Marvel superheroes died. And they went off and did what was called Heroes Reborn, where they brought in Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld and their creative studios to take over the big Marvel books, or big, in quotes, the books that were actually, like, kind of floundering at the time, but that they wanted to like, give a shot in the arm. In that case, it was Iron man, the Avengers, Captain America, and Fantastic Four. But the. The event led with them wiping the slate clean of everything that you. Any character that was like, up for grabs in the mcu, basically, they.

17:34
Case
They took off the board. So the X Men were still around, Spider man was still around. You know, just like, you know, lesser characters were given some space and. But the idea was there was this big void of superheroes going on, and Thunderbolts opened up with like, this new team of superheroes showing up to save the day. When I believe it's the Wrecking Crew, like, they. There's like a small incident at the beginning of the first issue. Then the Wrecking Crew shows up and they. They handily deal with them, even though they have, like, some concerns about it. Which at first you're supposed to think is that the. The Wrecking Crew are tough. The Wrecking Crew are all like humans that have been enhanced with Asgardian magic to like, be like, able to fight Thor.

18:15
Case
And each has like, a weapon that is like something you would use in construction, like a crowbar or like a wrecking ball. And they're all. They're all enchanted in such a way that they are. Are invulnerable, kind of like Thor's hammer. They're, you know, they're not quite Thor caliber, but they're tough enough that Thor has to like, actually like, put some effort in it.

18:38
Jmike
He has to try?

18:39
Case
Yeah, he has to try.

18:40
Jmike
Yeah.

18:41
Case
And so, like, when they show up, the Thunderbolts are like, oh, no, how can we face them? And it's like, well, we have to. And then at the end of the issue, it's revealed that the Thunderbolts are actually the masters of evil in disguise pretending to be superheroes. And so the first, like 12 issues of the book is all about this team of supervillains pretending to be superheroes and finding that they kind of like it. And it's difficult to keep the mask going for so long without the mask kind of becoming them. And so it's led by Baron Zemo. He's playing this Captain America type character called Citizen V. They've got Moonstone, who's taken the identity of Meteorite. Moonstone is in the caliber of a Captain Marvel type character.

19:29
Case
She has taken on the role of Captain Marvel at various times when she's impersonated her and Ms. Marvel, for that matter, she. She's tough. She's. She, She. I have done a Superman analog video on because she's in that camp. She. She's extremely durable. Flight energy powers, can phase through walls. Like a really cool power set that I, I used to, like, dream about having, like, legitimately, like, Thunderbolts was a great comic. And I, I was like, oh, man, it'd be so cool to be Moonstone. Another character that's like a good Superman analog is Atlas, who previously was Goliath. He has the same powers plus Pym Particles. And by the time that Thunderbolts rolls around, his powers have become very. Based entirely on his ionic powers. But his deal is at human size. He's basically a human.

20:18
Case
But as he gets bigger, his ionic energies become more and more so. So when he gets bigger, he actually becomes more like a Superman. So he becomes more invulnerable and more super strong in addition to becoming bigger and he can go to larger sizes than like, what Pym Particles can do. Normally, Pym Particles cap out at about 40ft and easily to 60ft and even larger if he's angry enough and is able to concentrate. So he's in that power camp. There is Mach 1, who continues to get upgrades over the course of the series. I believe it ends at Mach 5, but like Mach 5.

20:56
Joe
I thought the.

20:56
Jmike
Music'S going to start playing.

20:59
Case
But he's the Beetle, the Spider man villain. Then there is Songbird, who is the breakout character of the original roster of Thunderbolts. Who is she? She's able to Create solid sound constructs based on claws technology. And she used to be the villain screaming Mimi. And then there is techno. Who is there? Like cyber guy who used to be the Fixer. And his old. His old deal was really great with technology. And then he dies at one point and his brain gets backed up into a robot body, but also his body gets restored and they split off. So techno becomes a separate character from the Fixer at a certain point. But yeah, anyway, that series runs for. Runs its course. They. They try to do it like a reboot where it becomes like a fight club book for a while and then it ends and.

21:48
Case
And then it comes back. And I, I really like that whole run of it because the heroes or the villains who decide they actually like being heroes more than being villains arc I thought was really interesting. And for a good chunk of it, they're on the run and no one trusts them because they're like, you guys used to be the masters of evil. And it's. It's a cool book there. Then Warren Ellis takes over and turns it into more of like a Suicide Squad type book with. With Norman Osborn running the book. And that's a lead in to his Dark Avengers book or that Brian Michael Bendis writes that is basically doing the Thunderbolt story all over again. And just with the Avengers title. And then later is like, there's the Red Hulk version of it.

22:29
Case
Like it slowly turns into a government like, ops team. And that's sort of what it's been in the most recent versions of it basically doing Suicide Squad. But it started off as this idea of like villains pretending to be heroes and then finding that they want redemption along the way. So that's like, that's the big history of the team. And that is a reason why when this movie was announced and they showed the roster, it was like, what the fuck? I mean like, Taskmaster has been on vers like versions of the Thunderbolts recently and so has us agent at various times. But it's like this isn't like this doesn't like scream the Thunderbolts. And like they're not known for like, they're. They're honestly not known for being like street level characters. Like, they're usually actually like pretty good, like heavy hitters.

23:15
Case
Like, Hyperion has been a member. Luke Cage has been a leader of team Surprising. Hawkeye wasn't on it because he was a leader for a very long time of it. And he actually would fit the like the power scale really well here. And the MCU Version doesn't have this detail, but the original, like the comics, Hawkeye is a reformed villain, so that would, like, make him fit the mold very well. In fact, he would fit it better than, like, Buckeye or Buckeye. But Bucky is, like, very much filling that role in the movie. When we. When we actually get into talking about the movie. On that note, character who feels weird to be in the group because he's not really a. A thunderbolt is the. The century. Who is in this movie? He's in this movie. The Century is in this movie.

24:06
Case
Who is the century? Well, Art, same question. Are. Were you guys familiar with the century beforehand? Like, yes. Yeah.

24:18
Jmike
Oh, go ahead.

24:20
Joe
All right. I was just gonna say that. Yeah, I will. I. I've come across the Sentry before, and I found the character and the concept of the duality very fascinating. So I. I did, like, a deep dive reading into its history, and just the way that this character has this really nasty dark side, and it's just. It's a. It's a really. It's a really interesting character that I've been a big fan of.

24:52
Case
So I am not a big fan of the Century. I'm gonna. I'm gonna just be honest there. The Century is probably one of my, like, least favorite Superman analogs. I think that the. I think that describing the Sentry makes him sound cooler than the stories that he's actually from.

25:10
Jmike
What do you mean?

25:10
Case
I think that the original miniseries that he was introduced in was fine as a limited run thing where at the end of it all, he has to sort of go back into retirement because he can't exist without the void existing. Yeah, I think that worked pretty well, especially considering that it was a comic that came out with the whole premise being that they were going to gasless, gaslit comic book fans by way of a huge marketing push, claiming that this was a lost character from the 60s that was finally getting a miniseries, including having a Stan Lee interview in wizard where he was like, I like, oh, I. I vaguely remember this character. But, like, you know, we had so many things going to press and just, like, it just slipped through the cracks.

25:51
Case
We never, like, got the story finished, and so we never really put it out. And so, like, you think, oh, this is actually like this. This. This miracle man style, like, reinvention of this character. And then, no, we're just with you the whole time, and that's fine by itself. But here's the thing. It was popular at the time to do those kind of stories. There's triumph over from DC when Zero Hour occurred who was take the place of Superman in the pre crisis continuity stuff like all the like the foundation of the Justice League and all this stuff. He was a character who was just a Superman knockoff but with magnetic powers that like you. You put into that slot. You know, like the idea of we're just going to have a character who is like no, he was always here.

26:37
Case
Happens a lot because of the reinventions that D.C. Has done a ton of. They've tried to insert a whole bunch of characters to be. To be the fit in for Superman because they keep on trying to like update Superman to be a newer and newer character. So that part isn't new. And Marvel has another character who is very much like that, the blue Marvel who I think is a more effective version of the century story because they have additional complexities due to the fact that there was just inherent racism in a black superhero in the 60s. And like I think that is a cool, a cooler version of the character and is kind of just one of those things where like when he was brought back after his initial miniseries like they kept on trying to be like look how powerful he is.

27:23
Case
He can take on Terex the Tamer and not have any goddamn problem. And like that's very powerful because we're talking about a Herald of Galactus level of power. And like that's. That is power creep that I just don't care for in the Marvel U. Because there's like a tier system in like of things that care about Earth and things that don't give a shit about Earth. And if you are dealing with the things that don't give a shit about Earth and you're just winning, then you don't give a shit about Earth. Like that's the, that's the tier you're in at that point. And so why the fuck are you around the planet? Like, like why are you like what are you doing? Like shouldn't you be doing way bigger things? Where were you when the annihilation wave happened? Jesus Christ, motherfucker.

28:08
Jmike
I was busy, you know, off doing busy things.

28:11
Joe
So.

28:12
Case
So the sentry is a character who has the potential. Again, when you describe the character it sounds really good. I just don't really like most of the miniseries that they've done for the character. I did not like the New Avengers run. I, I'm not a big fan of Brian Michael Bendis as a whole. Like he has done books I've really liked. I really, I, you know, like Ultimate Spider Man. I really, like powers I really liked. But like, I, you know, like, I. I think you put them on. On team books especially where every character is supposed to have their own voice. And Brian Michael Bendis just doesn' voices for characters. They. They all talk with the same Brian Michael Bendis voice. Like, like, that's just the thing. Like, you know, the. The moment I like noped out of.

28:55
Case
Of his writing was when we got to Ultimate 6, where. Which was the. The Ultimates crossing over with Ultimate Spider Man. And all of a sudden these characters that had been distinctly written with their own voices, like, whatever you will say about Mark Millar, he at least is able to like, give characters, like, unique voices in their. In their appearances. All of a sudden they all just had the Brian Michael Bendis voice. Like when Nick Fury just went from being super spy to just being Brian Michael Bendis, I was like, I mean.

29:25
Jmike
I liked him with Naomi, but I've only like, read the first two books again.

29:30
Case
Isn't the worst thing in the world. I have liked plenty of books that he has done. I liked Naomi. Like when we read that like that and still have to do an episode on it, like, yeah, I know, I know. That's on me. We keep on having other things to talk about.

29:46
Jmike
That's fine.

29:49
Case
But. But yeah, the sentry has just not been used very well consistently. And his power creep gets. It gets into a bit of a way. And how he fits into the greater Marvel universe is questionable. And. And it's like, okay, so is he rewriting reality so people don't remember him? Jesus Christ, how powerful is he? Oh, my God. This movie sidesteps all of that, for the record.

30:12
Jmike
Yeah.

30:12
Case
In a way that I find very pleasing. I think that they do a great job with all that.

30:18
Jmike
That was my main concern because when we heard about him being in this movie, I was like, oh, God, how are they going to handle the void part? I was like, you can't really have somebody that powerful, like, just floating around the MCU doing whatever he wants because, you know, he's just too strong. And I like the way that they kind of like redid his character for this role because I was joking with Case after I watched it. I was like, this is like, basically mental health. It's important, the movie.

30:48
Joe
Oh, absolutely.

30:49
Case
100 really good. Before we, like, get in fully into movie discussion. So the. The long story short, for anyone who's not familiar with this entry, I'll just give a quick explanation of his origin. Drug addict with bipolar disorder who gains Access to what is supposed to be, like, an upgraded version of the Super Soldier Serum, and that turns him into a Superman type, but also manifests, like, all of his anxiety and depression into this, like, shadowy entity called the Void, that. That operates independently of the Sentry as long as the Sentry is active. And so in order for the Void, who is this, like, Dark Phoenix level threat to be suppressed, they have to suppress the Sentry as well, into his human form. But that human form is a manic, depressive person with, like, with substance abuse issues.

31:38
Case
And so it can, like, spiral out at. At a moment's notice. Yeah, he. He was brought back into the mainstream Marvel U. In the New Avengers run. You're welcome to read that arc, but I warn you that there will be multiple issues in a row where the same cliffhanger occurs, because it's just like, Brian Michael Bendis. He just has to add an extra issue. Like, I swear to God, there's two issues in a row where it ends with, like, them at the Sentry's house with, like, the military being like, we'd like to talk to Bob. Because he, like, fucks off for, like, the rest of an issue and then comes back to it. And it's just the same exact situation. Anyway, Anyway. All right, let's talk about the movie. I'm gonna start off by saying I really like this movie.

32:23
Case
I liked it enough that I wanted to re watch it so that I was fresh coming into this conversation because. And. And so I did. I. I got a chance to. To re watch it when I had a day off in the middle of the week and I went and saw a morning movie projection of it. They. I was the only person in theater, and they forgot that I was there and almost.

32:45
Joe
Oh, no.

32:48
Case
Yeah. So I like the movie enough that I. I went and saw it twice, and that was a lot of fun, and I. I just rather enjoyed it. Like, is it a perfect movie? No, but in terms of Marvel movies, it's. It's a lot better than a lot of what we've gotten since.

33:05
Joe
Yeah.

33:07
Case
Yeah, I thought that was really good. I thought that the characters in it were ones that I actually enjoyed, and I enjoyed bringing them together. You know, there's the whole. There's the twist at the end where they. They rename the movie the New Avengers, and that's apparently what's been going on for, like, some amount of theaters and so forth. Like, I don't know. It's still listed it as Thunderbolts. When I went to go See it again. But I. But supposedly it had been renamed the New Avengers. This is a new Avengers movie in the sense that it is bringing disparate characters together from multiple movies and uniting them as a team. That actually happens here, subtly considering that none of these are the headliners from movies. They're all the backup characters from either the Black Widow movie, but it's not Natasha or.

33:56
Case
It's characters from Captain America and the Winter Soldier or Bucky and the Winter. Or Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Sorry, what?

34:09
Jmike
I said Black Falcon. I mean, I didn't. I didn't mind that much. It was like. It was, it was a lot of fun. He said it was much better than like that other movie that came out. New Cap.

34:27
Case
No, substantially like, substantially better. I, I watched it pretty close because I didn't. I didn't see Captain America, Brave New World in theaters and. And then I did see this one in theaters and I was like, oh, wow, that is a night and day difference. Yeah.

34:45
Joe
One of the first things that really stood out to me is like, wow, this actually feels like a real movie. It's not just like nostalgia bait. It's not just pandering the audience. It's giving us characters with some pretty deep flaws, trying to work through their. Their trauma and kind of bonding while trying to deal with all of that. And it ends up becoming a pretty, in my opinion, a major focus of the film is all these characters who had all this really messed up stuff happened with them and how they're dealing with it in a very non traditional way, I guess.

35:23
Case
Yeah, I mean they say this in the trailer. It's like, what are do? All we do is punch and shoot. And. And that makes for one good fight scenes. Because it doesn't feel like it's like overly CGI for the majority of it. Like, there's only one like truly crazy CGI fight scene. And that is the one that's supposed to be the truly crazy CGI fight scene. Because they're supposed to show off like the sentry as a character.

35:46
Jmike
Yeah.

35:48
Case
And then it also supposed to show off like how ineffective they are when things get that big and how they're able to overcome it by not doing the big crazy fight sequences. Like they don't. They don't beat the sentry. They talk to Bob. And I think that's really good. Why don't we work our way down the characters and just sort of like give general thoughts about them. So why don't we start with Yelena? So Florence Pugh Obviously, she's coming in, having a decent amount of performances in this role. Before, she was obviously in the Black Widow movie and then she was in the Hawkeye TV show doing the role. I. I dug the character who's just kind of burned out on this. This terrible job. You know, I.

36:28
Case
I really appreciated, like, her, like, sob story about, like, how she, you know, goes to work and then she comes home and she drinks and then she, like, just, like, keeps this, like, cycle going of it all. And I'm like, man, that is, you know, really relatable in it. And. And to make her the viewpoint character, like, yeah, you. You. You get it. You still get great action scenes. Like, we get that, like, awesome hallway sequence at the opening of the movie. And like, her that. That the whole break in, which I do really appreciate that it's set up for the Sentry stuff there. But. But we. We get good sequences with her, and I believe that people are going to warm up to her. Like, she's. She has great humor. Like, she. She's funny. She's funny in universe funny. Like, she.

37:16
Case
She doesn't feel like. Like when she, like, makes a joke that, like, when she's like, I'll call an Uber. Like, when the. They're like, convoy gets, like, blown off. Like, you feel like that's the kind of line that someone would say in the real world. So really appreciated her.

37:34
Jmike
Definitely see her taking over. I was like. I made this comparison earlier, like, when were talking about how they're gonna try to, like, use her to be like, the. The anchor for. For Bob later on because they might try to redo the whole, like, Black Widow Hulk relationship where she's like, it's getting. The sun's getting kind of low there and bring them back. I don't mind it because it works great. But, like, they. They're trying to keep that whole dynamic there with them.

38:07
Joe
Yeah, I can definitely see that. One of the. One of the things I really enjoy, and this kind of just kind of an aside, but that first few minutes with her monologue at the beginning and having her leap off the building, the fact that they did that, completely real. Letting Florence Pugh jump off a building was almost to. Almost kind of saying, I'm sorry for the incredibly bad CGI jump that she had in Black Widow.

38:40
Case
Yep.

38:41
Joe
They're like, it's okay. We got it. This is different. Trust us. And when I saw that and how, like, just the way that she was talking about how that there was something missing and this. She just Effortlessly drops off of the building. I knew that there was going to be a bit more to chew on in this film.

39:02
Case
Yeah, for real. Again, she's a great viewpoint character. And having her experience this sadness that. This depression that. And having that be something that she can relate with Bob. When we get to the end of the movie, like, it's so much more effective than just we're gonna fight our way through this all. But Yelena is still a great fighter. And like, they do a lot. They do. They make her, they make you believe that she's a really capable fighter in these sequences. Even though she's like one of the. I think looking at the. Yeah, she's the only non, like, superhuman in the group. Like, everyone's low power, but like, they're all superhumans. Like us. Agent is very much so. Like, Ghost obviously can walk through walls. Red Guardian is a weaker superhuman. Bucky, they.

39:54
Case
They have made clear over time that he is much more superhuman than were initially led to believe.

40:02
Joe
Yeah, I, I kind of like that. This is like analog the movie, because we have a Superman analog. We have a couple Captain America analogs. That's nice. It's like the stand in movie.

40:16
Case
The B team.

40:18
Jmike
Wait, are they like a ct go.

40:22
Joe
Around like an FG team?

40:25
Jmike
The C minus team, where like, there is it. Is there no one else? Is there really no one else? Well, I guess we gotta use these guys.

40:31
Case
Yeah, well, I like the headline where it's like the bee vengers at the end of the movie. On that note, why don't we move on to Bucky, who, thank God they're moving away from this whole stupid he's a congressman plot thread. Some people have been like, man, he's done. And sure, he might be done. We don't really know where he is at the end of this movie, but he's a member of the Avengers at the end of the movie. So, like, I guess he's no longer a congressman. Val says that, like, not even a full term, but like, I, I'm assuming that's because she's implying he's about to be arrested. Like, it's like he hasn't really done much to like, say, I'm not a congressman anymore. But, you know, fun use of him in this movie. Like, I, I appreciate the motorcycle sequence.

41:22
Case
That's a huge throwback to like, his introduction in the original Winter Soldier movie. Right down to him having the, like, the bowcaster, like, magnetic grenades that he like, fired so that you know that's appreciated. I. I like him trying to be an espionage guy in Washington where it's like, we can stand here away from those cameras and what she says, she's pliable or something like that. Like when. When he's like, oh, yeah, I know.

41:54
Jmike
What you're talking about.

41:55
Case
Yeah. When he's talking about Mel, who I.

41:58
Jmike
Totally thought was gonna die halfway through this movie.

42:02
Case
Well, we'll talk more about Mel in a second. But, yeah, fun use of Bucky. Nice having him sort of feel like the adult in the room after being the guy in the run for so many movies. So interesting transition there. I really adored Ryan haupt on the iFanboy podcast when talking about this, joked that, like, he. The. The one, like, DC shot of him that is like, oh, yeah, it's exactly like someone who's new to dc. Like, he's eating Ben's chili bowl.

42:33
Jmike
Oh, yeah.

42:37
Case
But I'm just always happy to have him. And it felt good to use the character in an effective way. Like, so later in the movie when they, like, go through, like, Bob's, like, mental, like, palace or mind palace of like. Of torment. And it's like, no, it's great. I had a great life. I didn't need to see it. I was. I was perfectly happy with that. I thought they. That was a good joke right there.

43:04
Joe
I don't know.

43:05
Case
Any other thoughts about Bucky?

43:10
Jmike
I was hoping we'd get to see him argue with Sam a little bit. But, like, I was like, oh, wait, like, they mentioned it at the end that he and Sam didn't really agree on the whole Avengers thing. And I was like, they missed an opportunity.

43:23
Case
Well, we still might see it, like, the. Supposedly that footage was shot, like, on the set of Avengers Doomsday. So they're certainly thinking about how they're gonna, like, play off the two teams against each other.

43:37
Joe
Oh, definitely.

43:38
Case
And getting back to the, like, where this comes from, the comics, like, the new Avengers went hand in hand with the mighty Avengers being rolled out. So, like, it makes sense that there would be two teams operating simultaneously. Red Guardian, David Harbour was a lot of fun coming back.

43:55
Jmike
Hilarious.

43:56
Case
Yeah, yeah. Like a lot of fun. There was a moment there where it's just like, it's like moving to dc. Best decision ever. Isn't this technically Baltimore? No Baltimore stuff. Baltimore and D.C. Are not actually right next to each other.

44:09
Jmike
No.

44:11
Case
There is definitely a line. And the charitable interpretation of it. There's a line for where you, when you are considered in the D.C. Metro area versus the Baltimore metro area. But like, but like they are just not quite that close. Like they are an hour drive from each other.

44:28
Jmike
Yeah, there's big hour on a good day. Yeah.

44:32
Case
Like I live directly between them. Like I am 30 minutes either way for.

44:39
Joe
Yeah, okay. Well, if you ever need a limo.

44:44
Case
That's true.

44:46
Joe
I love the, I love the passion that David harbor brings to every single role he's ever in. And he really, he shows it with Red Guardian. I love the way he portrays the character and I, I love the, the fan girling he does over the Winter Soldier. He knows history. It's so good.

45:09
Case
I, I love the running gag about the Thunderbolts name in this movie. Like, yeah, it's like, no, he didn't have money to pay for it.

45:22
Jmike
You told him about the name.

45:26
Case
You pooped right in the middle of the. This girl, she pooped. Yeah. David harbor is having so much fun in this role. I, I only wish that he got a little bit more action sequences to show off what he could do. Like, it's nice that he opens the sequence of them just helping people and that sequence in general, I, I, we'll talk about just because I, I think it's good. But it's nice having Red Guardian being a hero and opening that up and we have those moments again. I just like, would like a little bit more action with him. We just don't get quite enough of that. But you know, he's effective enough when they bust into the room with. Oh yeah, or like into the, the foyer of Avengers Tower. That, that's cool. Ghost.

46:24
Case
Ghost apparently had a plot thread that was kind of removed because it was supposed to heavily involve Taskmaster. So she's really a little less used than she would be otherwise. I, I think she's fine. I, I think that it was a, it's fortunate that she was the one that was chosen for Yelena to be stalking so that we could be like, she's stealing and we can see her just like phase through the wall because like anyone who's like observing Yelena is going to be like, how did she like just walk in here? And it's a good thing that the douchebag who it doesn't pay attention to details is the one who is watching her. But Ghost fun to bring her back. I really enjoy, I really enjoy all of the Ant man movies, even Quantum.

47:08
Case
She was a great part of Ant man and the Wasp. Like, good use of her. Like Good limitations on her power, but also really good for, like, interesting fight choreography. Like, her phasing through people was really cool. Like, really useful stuff there without it being like, you know, game breaking. Like, she's got a distinct power, but there are real limitations. To.

47:36
Jmike
Was like, is it one minute? She said, yeah, okay, cool. I was like, I hope she's counting or she has a counter.

47:46
Joe
There's like a hud.

47:48
Jmike
Oh, sucker. She was like, oh, snap. I got time. They pull up Mr. Incredible. I got time. And then like, half in and half out of a wall.

47:56
Joe
Oh.

48:01
Case
But moving on to Taskmaster. All right, so I don't think this is a controversial take. I did not care for Taskmaster in the Black Widow movie. I will say.

48:12
Jmike
Well, Case looks like they agree with you.

48:16
Case
The limited use of the character in this movie somewhat redeemed the character for me. I was actually, like, on board when she opened up her visor and she's like, I'm not here for you. And then, like, went back to fighting using, like, all the different styles of different Avengers. I was like, oh, okay, this might be, like a good, like, reset for the character because, like, my problem was there's like a drone in. In the Black Widow movie. And yeah, like, it felt gross, like, what they did to her in the movie. And then, like, how they like and like, how like, it relates to the character. And like, all that, like, none of. None of that worked.

48:54
Case
But despite the fact that they have, like, a pretty good use of her for the very introduction of the character, she then dies to set up the stakes for everyone else. So that. That's the. Another big spoiler in that one. So hopefully if you actually care about this, you checked out when I said that we had spoilers coming. But also not a big surprise because, like, aside from like one or two shots that they, like, superimposed her into in early press material, like, it was pretty obvious, like, when you look at the marketing material that she's not in most of the movie.

49:26
Jmike
Yeah, she got like seven, maybe eight minutes of screen time. I think that's how long that fight sequence lasts about there.

49:36
Case
Yeah, something like that. And we'll talk about that fight sequence as a whole, because I think that is pretty effective. Moving on to US Agent. I love US Agent in this movie. I like. I. I like US Agent a lot more than most people and, like, more than you would think for considering, like, that. U.S. Agent is supposed to be an example of right wing Reagan era politics going to the extreme. And I am Like a big old lefty. But I actually enjoy him as the satire that he is and think that the character is often overwritten. Like, he's often Flanderized and that, like, he is supposed to be a douchebag that is, like, very annoying, but you want him on your team. And that is what he is in this movie. Like, he is really goddamn strong.

50:24
Case
Like, he is a super soldier who can do quite a bit, but he's a prick. And I love it. Like, I love that he's such a douchebag that like. Like, everyone, like, picks up on that pretty goddamn fast. Like when Bob laughs and it's just like, you used to be Captain America. You're an asshole.

50:47
Jmike
It was. It was. I was like. I was like, oh, look, it's him. And I was like, I wonder if they fix his character. Nope. But, okay, it works. It totally works for this movie because like K said, he is that lovable, mostly lovable asshole to everybody in this movie.

51:07
Joe
Yeah. It never feels like it's directly pointed at anyone. It's just you. You realize he just has this aura of douchebaggery.

51:15
Case
Yeah. Like the way that he calls Bob.

51:18
Joe
Bobby, you know, Like, I've known guys like that.

51:22
Case
Yeah. There's just this, like, extra layer of just, like, you know, like I said, just being a prick. Just like.

51:31
Jmike
And when they're climbing up the. Was that the. The elevator.

51:35
Joe
Elevator shaft.

51:36
Jmike
The elevator shaft, yeah. And he's like, okay, no, just give me a thing. And he automatically, like, pulls the. The baton out and everybody almost dies.

51:43
Case
Yeah. Made a tactical decision to secure my own safety. We should note that this is that he is played by Wyatt Russell, the son of Kurt Russell, MCU alum, and also the son of Goldie Hawn. And I rather like Wyatt Russell. Like, he has recently been playing more of these, like, military types. And by that, I mean he's played U.S. Agent, but, like, I know him mostly before that from. From 22 Jump street and from anybody Want or from Everybody Want Some, where he is playing the stoner jock in. In the Group in both of those movies, and very different character.

52:26
Joe
Yeah.

52:26
Case
Like, as this, like, surfer vibe, as opposed to this, where it's just like, yeah, man, I. I happened. I have shaken the hands of two US Presidents. Obviously, I'm supposed to bring you all in just final notes on this one. So I. I think that the best looking version of US Agent was when he first appears at the end of Falcon and the Winter Soldier. But I do like his look in this. The Captain America design in general and the UFC agent as a subset of that is very difficult to, like, get right. And they have consistently done that in the mcu. Like, a big, patriotic uniform, like, that could look very bad. But they. They do a good job with U.S. Agents, like, looking just like. Like, additional armor points on his, like, chess piece. And I.

53:17
Case
I like his reliance on a gun. I do. I love the whole joke when they're, like, comparing guns and he's like, I got a.45 with a long barrel. Yeah, it's kind of long. Let's move on to Valentina.

53:38
Jmike
Yeah, she did a good job. She did a good job of making everyone hate her.

53:43
Case
Yeah. Literally. Drive is, like, just excellent in this. Did you guys ever see the. The Amy Schumer sketch that she was in for your last year?

53:55
Joe
No.

53:55
Jmike
No.

53:56
Case
It's a. It's a really funny sketch where she's like. Like, Julie Louis Dreyfus is, like, being sent off on a boat because she's attained her last year, and that's no longer going to be, like, in. In men's eyes. And it's very funny. She's. She's just such a great comedic force. And, like, you know, if you're a Veep fan, this is, like, a great, like, use of that, but even more evil somehow than she was in Veep. For those who have seen the end of the show.

54:27
Jmike
I was like, man, she's really like. I really like her. And I was like, man, she's really making me hate her.

54:34
Case
But you buy it that this is, like, a twisted, evil politician character who is in that sort of, like, spy master kind of area. And you also buy that she's good at her job.

54:46
Joe
Yes.

54:47
Case
Like, I. I find it. I find the whole setup for how this team comes together really, like, really good. We'll. We'll talk about that in a minute. But I just want, like, every time Julie Louis Dreyfus is on stage, like, I'm just, like, enthralled by her performance on this Mel. So Mel is the girl from Cockblockers, and I. I enjoy this. There are people who think that she is supposed to be screaming Mimi Songbird because her name, her real name is Melissa. And people are like, oh, is that supposed to be that? And, you know, it's entirely possible. Probably not, but. But. But entirely possible.

55:30
Jmike
I. I totally thought she was going to die. I thought Val was going to offer off screen and be like, oh, no, Mel or Mel can't make it because, you know, she can't be here. And I was like, oh, yeah. When she got caught, I was like, she's done. She's dead. I was like, oh, she let her off easy. Interesting.

55:50
Joe
Exactly. I feel like just. Just off here of you almost too on the nose for. For the. For Val's character. I. I feel like she has. She's to. To quote a different movie. She plans within plans. She's incredibly ready to go, or at.

56:10
Case
The very least, ready to, like, pivot with new information as we. As what comes up when she gets her hands on Bob and Bob. All right, so, for one thing, I didn't know that this was Bill Pullman's son when he walked on screen, but the second he walked on screen, I was like, this is Bill Pullman's son? Yeah. So I dug him in general. He's not as schlubby as, like, Bob Reynolds is supposed to be in the comics, but you know what are you gonna do? Trying to explain that kind of transformation was gonna be way more effort than it's worth. And I enjoyed him throughout, like, him being kind of nice and kind of just like, self deprecating and whatnot. You're like, I. I can see why he's, like, charming, why people want to protect him.

57:02
Case
And then when his powers start to manifest, like, I like the. I love the void concept in it. I love him having these, like, runes that he's, like, hiding within. Like, I thought that was really. Yeah, I was surprised at how effective he looked as the Sentry. You know, like, they did, like, when they color his hair and put him in the sentry outfit. I'm like, oh, yeah, he actually looks like the fucking Sentry. And I didn't really expect that based on what he looked like up until that point in the movie. He. He doesn't look that assuming. And then you put him in this, like, Golden God costume, you're like, oh, yeah, no, I guess so. Never mind.

57:39
Jmike
Yeah, the costume totally worked. I was. When he. When he finally came down those stairs, I was like, holy balls, that looks awesome.

57:47
Case
Yeah.

57:50
Jmike
Because before that, you had. You had Val. Like, you know, you could do this. You're. You're an amazing person, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, this can only end badly. Then he walked down the stairs and I was like, oh, pretty good. Pretty, pretty good. I'm impressed.

58:07
Case
Yeah. And then the void effect, I think, was so good. Like, making him just like a pure shadow upon himself with them rolling eyes, like, really good look. And then, like, the. The growing darkness out of him was a good, effective feature and the, like the Hiroshima style shadows as their way of ye. Once it starts becoming a lot of people, you're like, oh, this can be reset. But it, but when that little girl first gets like, shadowed.

58:37
Joe
Yeah, when that little girl gets that, I felt things. Oh, especially dad.

58:44
Jmike
There were. There was someone in our theater who was like, oh, yeah.

58:51
Case
Like again, like once a few more of them happen, you're like, oh, wait, this is reverse. It has to be. But. But you don't feel that, like, when it occurs and like it's. It's pretty freaky in those moments, especially leading up to it.

59:04
Jmike
Yeah, because I was like, the whole point, I was telling you guys earlier, like, I was concerned about how they were going to work his actual powers head into the movie. And I was like, is this, this works? Because usually it's like with every good thing he does, like the Void does something equally as bad. And I was like, okay, cool. How are they going to explain that in the mcu? Like, how are they going to have somebody that powerful? But they found a way to make it work, you know, like, this is pretty awesome right now. And then I was like, you have to immediately sideline him because you can't just have somebody stronger than everybody together, like walking around New York City. Yeah, somebody very unstable walking around New York City like that.

59:43
Case
So, yeah, I think they do a really good job of setting up, like, how powerful he is. Like. Like what? Like, you can imagine the circumstance when he's necessary to like, break out and take the risk of the Void coming out. But in the meantime you're like, I understand also why he's not like, inactive because that is so bad if he does, like, the terribleness of that all. So I really like the setup and payoff of this movie. I think it is structured very well. You know, we mentioned that the fact that they go to a century base earlier on as being this like, striving or like, you know, starting point to. To everything going on with the century and like, why it connects to everyone else's story.

01:00:28
Case
I really love the convention of getting them all in the room together to like, set them on fire. Like, like we're the evidence. Like, that's really good. Like, like it. It made for a really good fight sequence and then a really good escape sequence. Yeah, Someone compared it to the raid and I'm like, oh, yeah. I could see this as being like a reverse version of the raid. They're like trapped in the basement of this building and they have to fight their Way out. Like there's a little bit of that in the middle act of this movie. You know, we set them up, how they work as a team together and like, who can trust whom and who, you know, like how, you know, how they all play out with each other with little bits of humor in this all.

01:01:08
Case
Like the, like the cucumber bit, like when it's like if I confuse my brain, I won't sneeze. And they're all like shouting it out. Like great setups for the character and. And then, you know, Bucky gets a really dramatic introduction scene and then we get your, we get our third act of the movie. Like it flows really well.

01:01:31
Jmike
Red Guardian, Winter Soldier.

01:01:35
Case
Yes.

01:01:35
Jmike
And then.

01:01:36
Case
Oh no.

01:01:40
Jmike
Yeah. I did enjoy the bit where they're trying to like where he comes up out of nowhere in his little limousine.

01:01:48
Joe
Yeah.

01:01:48
Jmike
It's like, oh, that's awesome. And they're just like driving across the desert areas and like this, this beat up limousine trying to make it back to New York. I was like, oh, this is hilarious. I love this, man.

01:02:05
Joe
And Yelena's reaction to his arrival.

01:02:08
Case
Yeah, had that.

01:02:11
Joe
Just, don't just go.

01:02:17
Case
I don't want to die today, so maybe someone else should drive. Yeah. Fun introduction for the character for both Red Guardian and for Bucky when he ultimately shoals up. Yeah. Solid piece. And you know, it's different than what I think I expected this movie to because I thought this was going to end up with them like working together like for a government contract type thing. I thought this was going to be more Suicide Squad and it ended up being much more different in that regard. Like it is still anti hero team up. Like, you know, they're all the rejects and the losers who have got a lot of blood on their hands but are, yeah, all wish that they could better people.

01:03:05
Case
And you know, I think that the void as a vehicle for showing off people's trauma, like, you know, like getting our little bits with us Agent there is really good. You know, like showing his bravado is like crumbling before we get like the reveal from Bucky that like, yeah, his wife like left him and took the kid.

01:03:27
Jmike
That took me a while to figure out what was actually happening because like up until that point I wasn't fully sure that Bob was a sentry. I thought he was like some like mutant. They are not mutant. Sorry, we can't use that yet. There's some special project they had been working on because I had gotten Hints from people before I watched the movie because people like to spoil things. They're like, hey, Bob is special. And I was like, shut up. But he kept, like, touching me when I was like, oh, okay. I get it now, because I think the first person he bumped into is Elena.

01:04:00
Case
Yeah. And we see that version of her leading her friend who was, like, the. The person underperforming in the white or in the Widow in the red room, like, widow program.

01:04:09
Jmike
Yeah.

01:04:10
Case
And having her, like, killed as, like, one of her tests.

01:04:16
Jmike
I was like, that's dark. We were having such fun. And then it went super dark, and I was like, oh, my feelings. But it was just like you said, it's a really fun movie. I was not expecting this. I went in with low expectations, and I was like, wow, this is awesome.

01:04:32
Case
Yeah. I. I want to talk a little bit about Bob as a. As a role. Like, they. A lot of these characters are super soldiers. And, like, what I mean by that, as opposed to superhumans, is that they are specifically created as government programs to be soldiers. I mean, actually, all of them, in a certain sense, are, like, Yelena is a part of the Red Room, this, like, training program to create the Widows. Bucky is a Hydra created super soldier. Red Guardian is a Soviet super soldier. Ghost was a program that, like, wasn't intended to be a super soldier, but, like. Like, kind. Kind of was, like, trying to deal with, like, the whole phasing material was like, a whole government experiment thing. Taskmaster was a Russian super soldier programmed to emulate things. US Agent is literally another super soldier. Like, they're all weapons.

01:05:25
Jmike
Yeah.

01:05:27
Case
And I find that interesting because, you know, it's like, they're. They're all weapons that have been cut loose. And initially, they're all being cut loose so that they can be killed. But all of them are weapons that no longer have a master, and they define their purpose in being an Avenger.

01:05:46
Jmike
Yeah, they just want to be, like. They want to find out what it means to, like, have a. Live a life, because they haven't had a chance to. Up to that point. Like you said, they've all been forced to do things that they didn't want to do but didn't really have a choice.

01:06:00
Joe
Exactly.

01:06:01
Jmike
But, you know.

01:06:02
Case
Yeah.

01:06:02
Jmike
Like, the whole Red Guardian thing, like, he's trying to, like, no, you could fix this. You can be who you want if you can be a hero. And I'm sorry. He's my favorite person this whole movie.

01:06:13
Joe
Put my name in before me.

01:06:16
Jmike
He's trying to, like, he. The Entire, like, he has his own flaws and things he's dealing with because he's been a bad father, but, like, he's trying to, like, get the best out of everyone and make them see that they're more than, like, what they've been. Their past, basically.

01:06:31
Case
The point I want to make is I think that despite the fact that this movie doesn't really share much DNA with, like, the original Thunderbolts material, it still has that same core idea of people who have a lot of blood on their hands trying to find redemption in the role of being a hero. And I find them taking on the New Avengers name at the end of this movie appropriate in that regard, because the New Avengers kind of ties into, like, Bendis's, like, attempt at doing the Thunderbolts again with, like, the Dark Avengers stuff. And it's a little bit more uplifting than, like, them being the Dark Avengers.

01:07:05
Case
Like, by the end of it all, like, you know, Taskmaster is out of the picture, and everyone else has had, like, enough of a heroic arc that you kind of believe that they could do that. They can be a true hero in this role, as opposed to a villain pretending to be a hero. So I. I find that the. The arc works. It. It's just more nuanced than what I've come to expect from MCU movies. Like, this exactly goes back to, like, the first three phases. Like, in terms of, like, oh, they actually, like, did a surprise. Like, it goes back to, like. Like, Age of Ultron, which somehow did, like, a perfect version of Vision, who also was Adam Warlock. And they combined all this comic lore into a way that was really creative. This movie is doing similar things.

01:07:55
Case
It combines comic lore in a creative way. It simplifies the things that's overly crusty, and it has a solid through line for these characters.

01:08:04
Jmike
Yeah, I have no complaints.

01:08:08
Joe
No, the writer they got for this film is impeccable. Some of the most emotional episodes of the Bear were written by her, and she's very good at just. Just, I guess, exposing a character's flaws and their vulnerability, really getting to experience it usually in, as, like, almost as simplistically as possible. So you get that in the scene with Elena and Red Guardian, when they have their. A very heartfelt conversation. You. You could feel, like, the weight of everything they've been feeling and how they shed it in that moment. To a degree. There's. There's so much more substantial as far as writing and character goes than anything we've seen in a very long time.

01:09:11
Case
Yeah, that, again, like, this. This was a surprisingly solid Marvel movie. And. And supposedly this is a, like, the. The first movie of, like, the new direction for the company, which I'm excited about, because if. If they can do something that asks this many questions about, like, the archetypes that they're playing with, I'm going to be very happy with it all. On that note, one final thing I wanted to discuss is, like, so the sentry is part of this wave of, like, unstable or dark Superman. And, you know, it's interesting for us to be looking at that as we are gearing up for a proper, bright and shiny Superman, as we discussed with the trailer. So, Joe, this is your chance to sort of wax poetic.

01:10:09
Case
Why do you feel people are responding to both the dark Superman and then also to the more traditional, positive view of it? Do you think there's something in the zeitgeist that really speaks to either version of the character?

01:10:26
Joe
Oh, yeah. I mean, I feel like for. For quite a while, people wanted. Didn't want just, I guess, hope for hope's sake. I feel that a character of such power needed to be flawed to a degree to make them human. And one thing that I learned to love a lot about Superman is he. One of his most powerful aspects is his moral compass that was given to him by his family and his support structures, his network of people that he can rely on that don't need to have powers, but they're what give him both his hope and his. His duty to protect them. And I think sometimes people just kind of want to see, well, what could happen if Superman didn't have that. What if he grew up with a very abusive family? And then you get something like the century or just.

01:11:25
Joe
If the characters didn't really want to follow along with what everyone else is doing. And once this really grows into selfishness and anger and. And hate, and you get characters like the young boy from Brightburn or Homelander. It's important with a character of such immense power that they also have some sort of support or guidance. And I feel for quite a long time were more interested in seeing the what if that didn't exist. But nowadays I kind of feel like we're all due for just a little bit of. A little bit of hope and a little bit of that support structure. And I'm. I'm raring to go. I'm really looking forward to seeing just a person willing to put themselves in harm's way and to protect as many people as humanly possible.

01:12:23
Joe
Whether or not that means you're doing exactly what's expected of you and what might be perceived as right. I, I think that's. And it's a. It's going to be more unifying. And I think that's another thing that those more negative and more flawed supermen don't really have. They don't have a unifying force. And I feel like we've been in a world of division for so long. We could certainly use a bit more unification in that regard.

01:13:01
Case
Yeah, hopefully that the movie coming out is going to be a thing for us to rally behind. Hopefully superhero movies in general are taking a turn in a more hopeful direction. I think that the MCU had its peak within game and then has been sort of floundering and hasn't really known what kind of message it was trying to tell. And so hopefully we, with the new Superman movie that we kind of can move into having a new thesis about, like, what is the value of this kind of archetype that we're exploring? Like, this is the nature of Men of Steel. Like, what is the value of the Superman archetype? And what can you glean, like, what lessons can you glean from it?

01:13:51
Case
So on that last point, is there anything about thunderbolts that from the perspective of a Superman fan, we have it covered in this all. So, So, J. Mike, is there anything that you wanted to talk about with thunderbolts that we haven't discussed.

01:14:08
Jmike
Meet with Red Guardian?

01:14:11
Case
Yeah, I would agree a little bit more. Red Guardian.

01:14:15
Jmike
Like, I think you kind of summed it up where, like, Superman comes from the background of like, a good community around him that like, inspired him to better, to do better and to like, see the best that people have to offer and want to inspire hope and the people who need it the most. Sentry didn't really have that kind of a guy who was always down in his luck and was given like, this, this olive branch. Like, hey, buddy, you know, you wanna be somebody when I do better? And they injected them with a whole bunch of superservice super soldier serum. And like, he's where he is now. And this is kind of like him learning to be a better person in himself and with himself and not, like, be so hard on himself all the time.

01:15:05
Jmike
And that's how they kind of portrayed it in the movie where, like, you're not by yourself. You're not alone. There are people who, like, love you and want to help you out and care for you and you don't have to do it all yourself. I was like, this is a very good movie for that whole point. Mental Health, the movie, it's awesome. You guys should go see it.

01:15:25
Case
How about you, Joe?

01:15:31
Joe
Maybe not so much for the aspect of a Superman fan per se, but I really, I feel like they handled the hopelessness of addiction and how that can influence a character quite a bit. You One would imagine that a person who was so controlled by a substance for so long might act when given the opportunity to become this ultimate being. I like the moment and this is actually where I found a little bit of Superman in the Century. There's a moment where the Thunderbolts have had their asses thoroughly handed to them and they understand that if they continue, they are going to die. So they escape. And Val immediately wants Sentry to pursue and kill them. And there's a moment where he's. He understands the futility of that and why should I even. Why should I hurt them? They literally can't hurt me.

01:16:40
Joe
I don't see the reason for doing that. And I also, I'm starting to see the reason for not wanting to listen to you. So for a brief moment there, we almost get a Superman in that regard, like before the. A literal switch is flipped. So I like how there was that little. There's a bit of that in there. And in his regard, there were he. There's still hope in that movie and there's still a support structure, but instead of it coming from people who can guide you from the get go, it's from people who have been in it and has. Has dealt with it and has that sort of perspective and can walk someone through once they've already been at rock bottom.

01:17:34
Joe
So there's a bit of a duality there and I'm looking forward to seeing what we might see of Century in the future in that regard.

01:17:45
Case
Yeah. You know, like a line that really resonated with me was how Bob had internalized. You always make it worse. You know, I thought that was such an interesting detail about the character that they, you know, explored further and further. And like we got into the psyche of this character. They show how much of a burden power would be on. On a person who has issues to work through and does a really good job. Like again, this movie is. Is just surprisingly good. Like great action sequences, great, you know, great pathos for their characters. A lot, a lot of like thought going into it and just really appreciated and it's like fun and quippy. So like, I. I highly recommend the Thunderbolts I, I think it's a, a dope ass movie.

01:18:43
Joe
Seconded.

01:18:44
Jmike
Yeah, I agree totally.

01:18:47
Case
So why don't we move on? This is actually a weird situation. So pulling back the curtain for Men of Steel, normally we just record these in the order that we record them and they just go up as episodes. But there's podcast time and so usually there's kind of a delay in this case because the movie is still in theaters and the trailer just came out. This was an opportunity for us to drop an episode a little ahead of time. So we're actually pretty far ahead of schedule. And so I can actually tease out some of the episodes that are coming up for once, which normally we don't get a chance to do.

01:19:22
Case
So I'm going to actually go over because this is episode 145 and we actually know everything from now to episode 150 and that is unique for us to be that far ahead. So I figured I might as well drop those little teasers into this. So next up we are going to be talking on Men of Steel about the Incredible Hulk versus Superman, also with Logan Crowley who joined us for the Silver Surfer Superman crossover and also had his voice memo earlier in this episode. Then we've got the Supergirl from Krypton where we're talking about both the Batman Superman World's Finest issues that did that story as well as the Animated movie Batman Superman Apocalypse I think is what it's called.

01:20:10
Jmike
We don't have to talk about that.

01:20:13
Case
And so that's with Alex and Amanda Ramsey from the Night of the Batman podcast. Then we are doing Superman versus The Amazing Spider man and that is joined by Adam Lance Garcia. Then we are talking about Class War, which is an indie book about what if Superman dealt with the indie politics or like the geopolitical nature of like Afghanistan right after 911 with Jesse Fresco. And then for episode 150 of this show we are talking about Super Slash man, the Christopher Reeve story with Ryan Luis Rodriguez. So there's a lot of cool episodes coming up. We just needed to shout those out. And all of those episodes at this point, aside from Super Slash man, have been teased on the Discord. So if you are, if you're curious about what episodes are coming out, join our Discord the ministeel chat.

01:21:05
Case
I drop episode art when I complete it and so that is, I try to get those out ahead of time so people can be anticipating the works that we have. So check out our Discord. It's a great place to interact. Joe is an awesome member of our Discord and chats with us all the time. J Mike is a member of the Discord and chats some of the time, but that's the best way to interact with all of us. So, you know, if you have thoughts about the trailer, if you have thoughts about Thunderbolts or the New Avengers name change or any of that, check out the Certain POV Discord. There are links all over our website, certainpov.com in the episode descriptions that go up on YouTube. All that jazz you can.

01:21:52
Case
Or if you can't find it, let me know and I will send you a link directly. There's no requirements to join. Just come on over and have a good old chat. That said, we have other stuff going on and places where people can find us. So in addition to the Discord, you can find me on the blueski at Kzagan Bsky Social or on Instagram etzelcoatl5 because I'm holding on to my AIM screen name for Dear life J Mike. Where can people find you and follow you?

01:22:24
Jmike
Am I supposed to call it the blueski now? The blueski.

01:22:29
Joe
Crack open a couple of blue skies.

01:22:30
Jmike
Find me over on the Blueski apparently at J5 Bluesky Social. And like Kay said, I am occasionally on the Discord. You know, I'm a lurker. I'm a lurker. I don't post very often. I just lurk.

01:22:42
Case
Yeah. Joe, how about you? Where can people find you? Follow you? What, what have you got going on?

01:22:49
Joe
So you. I'm. I'm. I guess the reverse. I'm more of a. A lurker on the blue ski than I am in the Discord channel. But regardless of where you look for me, you will find me at Joe Decahedron. I.

01:23:01
Case
Which is a name I love. I've. I've told you that before, but I just, I adore that as a name.

01:23:07
Joe
Yeah, I. I like buns. I like polyhedral dice. I play a lot of games with them. I participate in an actual play podcast called Dice Training where we focus on having a very inclusive table and providing a safe space where we could tell good stories. Aside from that, I have one or two things on the back burner that are in the back of my head. But yeah, just join the Discord and I will hang out and we'll talk and we'll chat and it'll be great.

01:23:36
Case
Dope. Dope. Yes, everyone should check out the Discord. They should also check out our Patreon because we have a Patreon now. So this is the first episode that we're recording that will be coming out post us actually having it. But yeah, you should go to Patreon and specifically go to patreon.com certainpovmedia and you can support the show. You can support all the stuff that I'm working on. But, but this show is a big part of that. And on that note we should thank the people who signed up. The first 10 people who joined are all executive producers on that. So we have several people to thank and that includes Carter Hallett, Sean Muir Lee, Gregor Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Masterpiero, Ayo Casey and Nancy Agan, Adam Sampter and Keith Letton. So those are the first 10 people to join at paid tiers.

01:24:36
Case
But we also. But one you could join and get that benefit if you join at the Kryptonian Science Council level. But, but there's plenty of tiers. There's a free tier. And so far all the benefits that we have provided for Patreon has been available to anyone even at the free tier outside of the shoutouts. But that is going to keep getting developed as we go. But on that note, I have been writing a bunch of essays for the Patreon and some of these are just like thoughts that I just wanted to like spit out. Other of these might be things that turn into videos later. We'll find out. It's just a opportunity for me to sort of like wax poetically about things that have been on my mind.

01:25:19
Case
And so if you join even at the free tier, you are able to check out those essays that have been coming out at this rate. Roughly it's been three a week but my goal was one a week. We'll see if it's. I'll get better about scheduling them ahead of time as opposed to just like being like yeah there's out but you should all check that out. We would really appreciate the support the show has been going for now close to 150 episodes and it's been wonderful and we're going to keep going but it would be nice to have some of the cost of production offset by other things just throwing that out there. So you know, that's that would be appreciated that money will go to me, J. Mike and then to also Sam, my co host from another Pass.

01:26:04
Case
So we would very much appreciate your support Joe. Joe is awesome and supports us. Be like Joe.

01:26:13
Joe
Be like me.

01:26:16
Case
But on that note, I, I really appreciate Joe you being here. I really appreciate the audience coming to listen. Yeah. Until next time, stay super man.

01:26:29
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Ricciardi. Our logo is by Chris Bautista, and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our theme is by Jeff Moonan. All right, Jose, let's go through our new comic day stack.

01:26:52
Case
We have a lot to review. I know.

01:26:55
Jmike
Maybe we've gone too far. Let's see. Marvel, of course. Dc. I got Image, Dark Horse, Black Mask, Boom. Idw, Aftershock, Vault, of course. Mad Cave, Ony, Valiant, Stout, Magma, Behemoth. Wow, that's a lot. Well, all we need now is a name for our show. We need a name for a show about reviewing comic books every week. Something clever, but not too clever, like a pun. It's kind of cheesy. Yeah. Something that seems funny at first, but we might regret later on as an impulsive decision. A few dozen episodes in. Yeah, we'll think of something. Join Keith and Osway for we have Issues, a weekly show reviewing almost every new comic released each week, available on Geek Elite Media and wherever you listen to your podcasts.

01:27:46
Case
Certainpov.com.