Episode 153 - An Interview with Paul Kaminski

In this episode of Men of Steel, Case flies solo for a truly super conversation with Paul Kaminski, Superman Group Editor at DC Comics. From current titles to legacy influences, Paul shares behind-the-scenes insights on shaping the world of Superman across books, teams, and timelines. Whether you're a die-hard fan or just curious how the cape stays iconic decade after decade, this one's for you!

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Men of Steel Full Episode

Originally aired: September 12, 2025

Edited by Sophia Ricciardi

Scored by Geoff Moonen

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Overview

• Paul Kaminski oversees Superman titles and other major DC Comics characters as Group Editor for Metropolis Group, leveraging 17 years of industry experience.

• Kaminski's entry into comics was inspired by classic series and publications, shaping his understanding of the comic creation process at an early age.

• The Superman editorial philosophy combines elements from various iconic eras, emphasizing a vision inspired by the 90s Animated Series and Fleischer cartoons.

• A unified visual style for the Super Family has been implemented, with distinct designs to maintain Superman's uniqueness within the group.

• Current Superman publishing strategy includes three core titles, each catering to different narratives, with significant arcs like Action #1100 planned for fall 2026.

• The Legion of Darkseid storyline is a pivotal upcoming focus across Superman issues, essential for the future of DC Comics.

• Kaminski champions Atomic Skull as an underutilized villain, highlighting previous successful narratives like Phil Jimenez's Superwoman work.

• Plans for Zod storylines are in development, with original concepts influenced by sci-fi classics like Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan.

• He advises artists to specialize in genres and network at conventions, while encouraging writers to start with smaller companies or licensed comics.

• Kaminski addresses misconceptions about creators' intentions, advocating for fans to read comics with an open mind regarding character developments.

Notes

‍️ Paul Kaminski's Background and Role (01:50 - 11:15)

• Paul Kaminski serves as Group Editor for Metropolis Group at DC Comics, overseeing Superman titles, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Flash, Green Arrow, and Justice League.

• DC Comics currently operates three editorial groups: Metropolis Group, Gotham Group, and newly formed Themyscira Group led by Brittany Holzer.

• Kaminski has 17 years of experience in comics industry, starting at Archie Comics and working on Sonic the Hedgehog before joining DC in 2015.

Getting Into Comics and Career Development (03:09 - 12:31)

• Kaminski's entry into comics began with X-Men animated series at age 7-8, followed by purchasing Wolverine #76 and Death of Superman trade paperback.

• Pizza Hut X-Men video featuring Bob Harris, Fabian Nicieza, and Scott Lobdell was formative in understanding comic creation process.

• Early editorial experience involved learning hands-on approach vs. hands-off approach to editing, with first major lesson being 'editing is not writing the comic yourself.'

‍️ Superman Editorial Philosophy and Approach (19:23 - 20:46)

• Kaminski's Superman vision draws from 90s Animated Series, combining elements of Fleischer cartoons, George Reeves TV show, and Triangle Era comics.

• Hired Joshua Williamson as writer for Superman relaunch based on their successful collaboration on Dark Crisis.

• Selected Jamal Campbell as artist after being impressed by his work on Naomi, particularly Superman fight scene.

Super Family Organization and Visual Identity (32:03 - 32:03)

• Implemented unified visual style for Super Family with matching jackets designed by Dan Mora, inspired by Jim Lee's X-Men era.

• Action Comics #1051 cover serves as mission statement for organized Super Family approach.

• Superman intentionally remains only cape-wearing member to maintain visual distinction within the family.

Current and Future Superman Publishing Strategy (13:51 - 40:27)

• Three core Superman titles serve different purposes: Superman (future/All-In storylines), Superman Unlimited (present-day Kryptonite kingdom stories), Action Comics (past/Superboy canonical stories).

• Action #1100 is being planned for fall 2026 with major story arc.

• Legion of Darkseid storyline spans Superman issues #28-30 as crucial future DC direction.

‍️ Character Development and Villain Preferences (36:00 - 39:04)

• Strong advocacy for Atomic Skull as underutilized villain, praising Phil Jimenez's rehabilitation storyline in Superwoman.

• Plans brewing for Zod storylines with hints being dropped across current issues.

• 'Kneel Before Zod' book was originally inspired by Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan approach, even approaching director Nick Meyer to write it.

Industry Advice and Misconceptions (16:39 - 43:08)

• For artists: Focus on specific genre specialization and build community networks through conventions and local studios.

• For writers: Target small companies first, pursue licensed comics as entry point, especially Star Trek.

• Biggest fan misconception: Creators aren't intentionally trying to destroy favorite characters - encourages reading comics 'in good faith.’

Transcription

00:00
Paul
I was noticing that there was a lot of different supercast and they were all kind of scattered and there was not a good structure to them from my vantage point. So I thought, well, let's give some organization to the super family. Let's give a consistent visual style to the super family. So that's where the jackets come from. You know, I think the jackets primarily are the fault of Bob Harris's X Men era.

00:26
Case
Yeah, I was about to say the Jim Lee X Men era.

00:30
Paul
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a. I have a real jacket problem, to be honest with you.

01:01
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and unfortunately I am not joined today by J. Mike Falson. He is working today and we are doing a little bit of daytime work. We're actually interviewing someone who has stuff to say about Superman as opposed to just all of us who are just like nerds on the Internet. Because today we are joined by Paul Kaminsky, who is. What is your actual title at DC these days?

01:26
Paul
Nerd on the Internet. I am a group editor, Metropolis Group. So my team oversees all the Superman titles. Green Lantern, Aquaman, Flash, Green Arrow. Lots, lots and lots. Pretty much anything that's not Bat or Wonder Woman at this point. Justice League. So, yeah, lots. They did a lot of books.

01:52
Case
That's a pretty big space of it all. So it's Metropolis, Gotham, and then what? Themyscira is the Wonder Woman group.

01:58
Paul
Yeah. Funny enough, we never had a Themyscira group. When I got to DC in 2015, there was three editorial groups. There was Supergroup, Bat Group and Justice League Group. And Justice League was kind of the catch all. And then things consolidated Covid happened. There were many corporate takeovers and things. By the end of all of that, there was two groups, Metropolis Group and Gotham Group. And then just recently in the last year, the wonderful Brittany Holzer was promoted to senior editor and now heads up her very own group, Themyscira Group, which oversees Wonder Woman and the Titans cast.

02:38
Case
Okay, cool. It's always fun finding out more about the behind the scenes with this all. And I have to thank you so much for coming on. We have been friends mostly on Facebook for like 15 years. 15 years now. We know each other through a mutual friend from back in the day when you worked at Archie Comics. And that's how we got connected and then have just stayed just generally like good chatters online with. With one another.

03:04
Paul
Nerds on the Internet, you might say.

03:05
Case
Yeah, nerds on the Internet, which is exactly the kind of thing that this podcast is for. So I don't want to keep you too long, and I've got some basic questions for you, so why don't we get into it?

03:16
Paul
Let's do it.

03:17
Case
All right, so, Paul, what first got you into comics and when did you realize you wanted to work in the industry?

03:24
Paul
It was the X Men cartoon when I was very young, and I was about 8, 7, 8 years old when that cartoon went on the air. And I worshiped that cartoon. Worshiped it. And through osmosis, I obtained a couple comic books. I don't remember where I got them, but there was an X Men Adventures comic which was a tie in to the TV show. And I was like, wait a minute. They make comics about this? My favorite show. And so that's all early elementary school. And then the first comic I bought with my own money was Wolverine 76, the issue after he gets the adamantium sucked out of his skeleton. Spoiler alert. I'm sorry, everybody. And then the first trade paperback I ever owned was the Death of Superman. So those two things were the formative things for me.

04:22
Paul
It was Death of Superman and X Men, and I worshiped those things. Like, I really liked the Christopher Reeve movies. I used to watch those, particularly Superman 3. I have a lot of distinct memories of Superman 3.

04:37
Case
I think a lot of people our age have very distinct memories of Superman iii.

04:41
Paul
Yeah, yeah, right. Because it came out when were born, basically. So it was just hitting the VHS market at a time when were very tender and ready for Superman. And then I worshiped the Batman movies, too, Like Michael Keaton, Batman just forever and Batman 66, and the George Reeves Superman was around the house. So comics were an early obsession, and it felt like a clubhouse to me. And that's something I've tried to keep going in my various comic projects over the years, is to try and perpetuate that feeling of a clubhouse. Whenever I would have a bad day at school, you know, I wasn't the most popular kid in the universe, and I knew I could come home and go in my bedroom, and there was.

05:27
Paul
There were the X Men, like, waiting to hang out with me and tell me that it was actually okay to be a weirdo, or there was Superman to tell me that actually there are people who are good in this world and will protect you, and they may die, but, you know, there will be others take their place, I guess. So it's that. It's that clubhouse, that sort of feeling of belonging. Like, wizard magazine was also really Formative for me.

05:49
Case
Oh, yeah. Talk about just like a foundational, like, memory in terms of, like, comic book fandom from the 90s.

05:54
Paul
Yeah. I read wizard to. I don't know, I'm trying to think of the right superlative. Like, I. I don't think superlative was the right word, but I was. I loved that. And actually, as a kid, I was a Marvel zombie, like, pretty hardcore Marvel Zombie. And so I didn't read a lot of DC comics, like, regular comics. But it was through wizard that I got to know all the DC cast. Like, basically I read through people writing about it all of, like, Green Lantern and all this stuff. And that's where I got my education was from wizard magazine for comics.

06:30
Case
Yeah. Like, that's such a funny thing about that era that I really miss, like, having such a comprehensive guide. Like, I feel so versed in the comics of. Of my day. Even though I didn't read, like, there's plenty that I, like, went, like, I, I hunted for and sought out because of wizard, but there's so many that I, I never really read, like, all that much of, but I still, like, felt, you know, super connected to. I'm trying to think of a good book off the top of my head, but, you know, it just was such a. A wonderful, like, avenue towards understanding the greater comic book space.

07:03
Paul
Yeah, yeah. It made me feel like I had found my people, like, there they are. And so. Yeah. And it also made me feel like I could do it too. And that's the wonderful thing about comics is that the bar for entry is pretty low. Like, all you really need is a drive to do it and a certain degree of imagination and dedication. Even if you're not artistically inclined or have natural artistic talent, you can find ways into comics that circumvent that if you need to. You know, there are other ways to interact with it, whether it's writing or guiding a line. So when I was a kid, actually, I had a whole line of comics. It's funny, I'm doing what I did now. What I do now is what I was doing at nine years old.

07:48
Paul
I had a whole line of comics that were called K comics because my last name and very creative. I know. And I had super teams. I had a whole line of books. I had crossovers. I did house ads. I did editorial columns. I was like nine. I was doing all this stuff. And those. Those were superhero to start. And then when in middle school and high school, they morphed into comedy comics. And then I was like, well, I guess I'm gonna. I guess I'm gonna dedicate my life to this. And so I went to. To school to do it. Sva.

08:18
Case
Nice. So still, like, still in the realm of, like, what got you into comic books? Was there a particular creator? Was there? I guess what the. My biggest question is, what was the moment where you felt like this was a thing that was people like, you said wizard helped you sort of feel like you could do it. But. But where. Where was it all of a sudden? Where you, like, glommed on to, oh, people are making this thing that I really appreciate and I could be one of those people. Like, was there a creator that, like, stood out to you that, like, all of a sudden you were like, oh, not only is that a person I really like. Not only do I like what they're doing, but I could do what they're doing.

08:52
Paul
Yeah. Was a big. So I came into X Men post Claremont, although that was still kind of hot on the presses, so.

09:00
Case
Right. And the cartoon was so, like, influenced by the Claremont run that, you know.

09:05
Paul
Right, yeah. But I came in at the Lobdell years, which are. Which are in a lot of ways the Bob Harris years. And so it was actually, it was Bob. It was the Pizza Hut video. You know what I'm talking about? The Pizza Hut intermagneto deadly reunions.

09:19
Case
Oh, yes.

09:20
Paul
Night of the Sentinels. Two part VHS set that had Fabian nza, Bob Harris, Stanley and Scott all talking about comics. And I was like, ooh, those are the people that make it. And that video, I wore two pieces, like, I watch that all the time, mainly for the opening where they're talking about how they approach the characters and things like that. Funnily enough, when I wound up working for Bob Harris when he was D.C. editor in chief when I first started, I was also working with Scott at the time and I got them both to sign my VHS copy.

09:55
Case
That's awesome.

09:58
Paul
That was a formative tape for me. So there was that. And then, like, I was always wondering, like, who is Tom DeFalco and why is he always talking in these books? Like. And I was like, he seems to like cigars according to this column here. And, like, obviously Stan was a good spokesperson, so I knew what editor in chief meant. I didn't really know what an editor did. My relatives still don't. But I knew what an editor in chief was. That was the guy who made the decisions about the characters. And I was like, yes. And so I didn't set out to become that. But When I found that avenue, it was natural for me because I kind of had an innate understanding of what a good editor might do.

10:41
Case
Okay, now you have worked in the comics industry pretty much your entire adult life at this point. And so you've worked across several different corners of comics, from Archie to Sonic, now to all of apparently Metropolis, which includes so much beyond just Superman. But Superman, how did these experiences shape your editorial voice?

11:01
Paul
Yeah, so it's been 17 years. There's a lot of people who have. Who lap me. You know, for a long time I was used to being the youngest guy in the room in these things. And, you know, that is slowly starting to change. But yeah, so it was. It was my boss at Archie, Mike Pellerito, showed me the ropes. Like, he was like, here's what editing is. I was like, is there. Did anyone ever, like, write any of this down? He's like, no. I was like, okay, neat. He's like, here's this article from this trade magazine. And this tells you, like, two approaches to editing, which I still remember to this day. And the approach, one approach is like more of a hands on approach, and one approach is very hands off approach.

11:43
Paul
And you can kind of pick and choose and oscillate between those, depending on the creators. But I learned originally, I really think back to this often and wonder what he must have been thinking. But my first script I ever edited, I just. It wasn't what I envisioned the issue to be. It was an issue of Sonic the hedgehog. It was 210 issue. And it wasn't what I had in my head when I was like, thinking about how the story was going to unfold. So I sent the writer back. It was Ian Flynn. He's a wonderful man. I sent the writer back. Like, I was like, all right, that story's cool and all, here's a counter story. And I was like, boom. And I wrote the whole thing myself and sent it to him. And he was like, cool, cool. Love the spirit.

12:31
Paul
I am the writer of the comic. And so it was a lot of, like, feeling it around, you know, and getting to know what editing means. And so editing is not writing the comic yourself. And that was a lesson I learned from day one is not writing the comic yourself. It is finding other voices, other talent, creators, tapping into other imaginations, and then using your own creative energy and skill to amplify, enhance, and support those ideas. A typical job of editing a script for me these days is I'm not going through When I read a script, I'm not going through and, like, marking typos or something like that. Although my parents, I suspect, think I'm a proofreader, I am not. I'm actually dreadful at spelling like Lois Lane.

13:20
Paul
But I go through, I read the script, I kind of get a sense of the story flow, and I also try and keep an eye out for what I like and what I think is missing. And then those are the notes I tend to target. Hey, you went through this whole story with. It's in a Green Lantern comic book. But Green Lantern is not really doing anything proactive in here. You really want him to do something. Hey, you. You had this great Superman story, and then it ended very soft and didn't drive us to the next issue. You probably want to do that. And then where I can contribute story wise, is more in the long form arc of it all.

13:59
Paul
So, for example, right now we're knee deep in planning the Superman stories that are going to take us from fall 2025 through fall 2026, which will include action 1100. And I'm very involved in what that arc is going to because I have some ideas of what I'd like to see. But then it's working with the talent to say, like, what do you like to see? And then we can kind of craft it from there. I tend to be more hands on, I think, than some other editors are. I build a lot of PowerPoints, a lot of decks. I hit a lot of whiteboards. I love the creative part of it, and it's the creative part of it that keeps me going. But ultimately, like, it's the talent that are actually writing these stories. And so casting is a big part of my job.

14:44
Case
All right, so as we've established, you've got this long history working in the comics industry. Now you're no longer the youngest guy in the room, as you pointed out. For those looking to get into it, like, where, like, how would you recommend people start?

15:00
Paul
Well, it depends. You know, the easy. It depends if you want to write or want to draw or if you want to be involved in the process a little more behind the scenes, like I am. For artists, it is a lot of hard work, but it is easier to show your work and to get in front of people. And my best advice for artists is not only to get your underdrawing on point, which means learn how to move the figure around, but also know what you want. If you know what you want, you are way ahead of the game. So if you want to draw Superheroes. That is what you need to focus on. If you want to draw Archie cast and romantic, like sort of comedy stuff, then that's what you have to focus on.

15:44
Paul
And then you have to get to know who are the editors, who are who, what are the books, what does the market look like? A lot of times I'll get a portfolio that's like a lot of random scattershot type genre. And I don't really know what to go do with it because I work in a specific genre that has flexibility but is not like it's specialized. So, yeah, get to know that part of it. Get to know what you want and then get to know who make the things that you already like that you want to do. Build a community, build a network, go to conventions, get involved in local artists studios. There's a lot of them, especially here in sunny Portland, Oregon. There's Helioscope, several others.

16:29
Paul
And get embedded in the community because it's only through interacting with other people and networking that you're going to find out how to get in and meet the right people. For writers, it's much more challenging, but once you're in it, the actual physical act of writing is more lucrative because you can do more of it, I think personally and. And also you get to guide story more. It's tricky to get to break in. You want to target small companies at first. You want to get a portfolio under you. What I always tell people is do licensed comics. I'm a huge Star Trek fan, as I know you are as well. So I read a lot of Star Trek comics. And it doesn't matter to me who's writing the Star Trek comics because I'm reading the Star Trek comics for the characters.

17:16
Paul
So licensed books will help get your work in front of people if you can finagle your way in there. And it tends to be kind of not easier, but more accessible to do that. That's for writers, I would say a big one. For editorial, it's again, it's building the network. It's keeping an eye on what companies are doing what. It's getting to know people, putting yourself in the right spot as much as humanly possible, and getting to know those different avenues of development. But I guess all three of those really boil down to get know what you want.

17:47
Case
Know what you want. Yeah. Now, when you took over as Metropolis editor, what did you want? Like, did you have a mission for the super family?

17:54
Paul
Yeah, I love Superman. So when that finally happened, I was just over the moon because I had started at DC in the super group. At the time, I was an associate editor, but I wasn't. I was touching some things. Like, I edited a lot during the Rebirth era, Supergirl. I was associate on action, some other items. And then the groups all got shuffled around and I was taken off the Superbooks. But I spent some time in Justice League. I spent some time in. And then I wind up in Bat group. And I wound up having a good time in Batman group. And actually, the advantage of that was I got to edit a lot of different titles. In fact, I'm one of the few editors who really has, like, edited almost every one of the books we make in some form or another.

18:47
Paul
I've had runs on Wonder Woman. I've had runs on Titans, I've had runs on Detective. I've had guest spots on the core Batman title. When it was time to come back home to Metropolis, my hope was to take the spirit of what those books were trying to accomplish, but to put it in a more. A slightly more familiar rapping to bring us to the immutables of those characters a bit more and then continue to play out those stories. So what you see is John not going away. John just takes a different role alongside Superman himself. So that, I guess, ultimately, I'm taking lessons from that X Men, Chris Claremont, Jim Lee thing, which is take the thing that's working, but put it in a wrapping that feels intrinsic to the characters, yet modern.

19:41
Paul
So my first hiring was Joshua Williamson because he and I had just done Dark Crisis together. And Josh and I, you know, we're about the same age. We have very similar sensibilities. We're pretty close, just generally. And we also have a good working relationship where he. At this point, he and I work together on a lot of books. Flash, Batman, Superman. So he knows when I don't like something and when I like something and vice versa. And we have a good feel for each other. So I knew if I'm gonna do this and I wanna do Superman like the Superman we know, I wanted somebody I could trust with me who would do it young and fun. And so that was Josh. And then it needed to look right. So that was Jamal Campbell.

20:28
Paul
Because I saw what Jamal Campbell did on Naomi and there's a scene, I don't know if you remember, in Naomi, if you read that, but there's a scene where she fights Superman really early on in the book. It may have been, like a preview or something. And I remember looking at that. I wasn't working on the book at the time, but I Remember looking at that, going like, oh, that's good.

20:46
Case
Yeah. I was blown away by the art on Naomi.

20:50
Paul
Yeah. So I was like, that guy right there. And I was already working with Dan Mora on other books at the time, so that's why Dan didn't make his way into that particular aspect of the conversation. So, yeah, I knew I wanted to kind of give it the feel of the Animated Series, too. So. I love the animated series, the 90s animated series. And the 90s animated series does a great job of marrying a lot of disparate elements. Particularly, in my opinion, it does a good job of marrying Fleischer, George reeve, and the 90s Superman. The triangle era. I thought, like, when you take those three components and you shove them in a blender, you get the Animated Series.

21:31
Case
I think there's also, like, a certain amount of tribute to the Silver Age, but that. It's hard to say if that's also coming from the Triangle era as well. But I see where you're coming from on that one.

21:43
Paul
Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. There's a lot of elements to it.

21:46
Case
He's got Superman robots by the end of the series. So, you know, there's definitely, like a nod to the Silver Age Superman.

21:54
Paul
Yeah. I guess what I mean by that is, like, the villains have that kind of Triangle Era feel to them.

22:02
Case
Oh, yeah, for sure.

22:03
Paul
Yeah. Well, what I mean by that is, like, in the Triangle Era, there was a churn of villains, and they really did try and establish the Rogues Gallery based, I think, in large part on them doing a post crisis update of Silver Age stuff. So when I look at that stuff, I don't really think Silver Age. I know what you mean, but I think of Triangle era.

22:22
Case
Yeah, no, it's certainly the Triangle era nods to the Silver Age as the lens by which the Animated Series is dealing with Silver Age kind of concepts.

22:30
Paul
Right. And then Clark behaves kind of like George Reeves. Yep. And the thing looks like Fleischer sort of, you know, or an updated Fleischer. So that's to me. And then I really responded to that. And that's like, oh, man, that's Superman. So were setting out to do. If we're gonna do Superman again, we have an opportunity to do a number one. I've got Josh and Jamal, and I've got. I know what I want. I want the Animated Series in comic book form. Now. Let's go. And we just hit the gas. And so it's been. Yeah, it's been a fun ride ever since.

23:04
Case
That's awesome. Talking about Superman. And so you've seen that the. The Animated Series is sort of like your. Your Superman, which is. It's frankly my Superman, too. Like, in terms of. Of all the. There's so many things out there or so many portrayals out there, where do you. Where do you find the character in terms of the. The scale of too powerful or too perfect? Like what. Where. Where do you think he should be that makes him interesting to you?

23:29
Paul
I don't buy any of that too powerful stuff. I mean, the fun is that he's the strongman. Fantasy is a huge component of Superman, just in general. I often point to. And my apologies to anyone who has heard this before, because I say it a lot. There's a burn issue, early burn issue of man of Superman where a shirtless Clark Kent is heaving a gigantic oak tree or whatever it is out of the ground with his bare hands. And I remember looking at that, going, like, when you boil it right down, really boil it right down. I think that is part of the base sort of guttural appeal of Superman. He is a guy that looks like a human that can do incredible things.

24:21
Case
I have complicated feelings about the depowering scenario, mostly because the scenarios that have depowered him somewhat have usually been pretty good stories unto themselves, like the Sandman Superman, or just the Burn Arrow Superman I grew up on, so I was a fan of. But I tend to agree with you that it's a lack of creativity to say, oh, we have to depower him in order to have interesting stories. I think that we can say more interesting things about the character and. And tell specific stories that only Superman can tell. If you're not worried about putting him in a power scale.

24:58
Paul
Yeah, well, I think to me, it's less about the powers and more around the rules around the powers. So in terms of the Berne era, you get more defined rules. And yes, you could interpret that as a depowering, but I would actually argue instead that the rules around his powers in pre Crisis era were so fuzzy and so lax that it felt like he was overpowered simply because there was no boundaries. If you erect the proper boundaries, which I think Byrne did a good job of doing, then I think that's the real question. Okay, like, what can't he do? Is ultimately where your stories have to start would be my interpretation of that.

25:36
Case
But I know this is like minutiae to push back on. But, like, the issue you're talking about is the issue with the legion of superheroes showing up. And that is specifically the issue that sets up that he's not as powerful as the Silver Age version. So I'm just pushing back on this de powering that definitely was going on.

25:52
Paul
To me, that's about definition, which in the story can manifest in lower power level or whatever, but I think it's more about the definition. I don't know.

26:02
Case
Sure, sure. And again, I'm generally speaking agreeing with you that I think that you don't need to lower the character's power level just for the sake of the story being interesting. So it just. I was just pushing back on that one point that you specifically brought up an issue where they highlight how the character had been depowered.

26:22
Paul
Yeah, fair enough. Well, you know what it is too. What I often see is characters. I see writers oftentimes try and have new characters or characters that they care about or characters that they created punk, more prominent characters as a way of building them up.

26:41
Case
For Star Trek fans, this is called the Worf Effect.

26:47
Paul
And I hate that it bothers me a lot because if that's the way that you think you can do it, you're just doing it at the expense of something else. Then you're defining your character on others expectations. Anyway, to me, that's a shortcut. It's not as interesting as having the character undergo that development through ways that are intrinsic to the story. I think of power levels in a kind of a similar way. You do have to define them. And then it's about what you do with those definitions that's the important thing.

27:19
Case
All right. With those definitions, with everything that you're sort of approaching Superman from. How do you balance legacy and innovation when it comes to the approach to Superman books? I mean, they've been running now for 90 years. Did we just hit that? Was that the.

27:38
Paul
So just about.

27:39
Case
So we're just about at 90. So 85 was, I guess, the last big so nothing.

27:44
Paul
So, yeah. So it's hard. It's hard to do. It's about knowing what you want. It's knowing. Knowing what you like. Every Superman story usually has been done already. I try not to get too worried with the Simpsons did it stuff. I do hear that quite a bit. It's. It's unavoidable. But I don't know. If you have a writer with an editorial, if you have a writer with a voice that has something to say, then I don't think you need to worry about it too much. Because even if you retread similar ground, no two people's perspectives are 100% the same always anyway. So I Do tend to myself, even as just a reader, be more attracted to writers who have something to say. And it's clear that they have something to say.

28:29
Paul
Not in a finger waggy sort of way or some sort of, like, message. Brow beating. Yeah, something like that, you know, soapbox thing. I don't like that. But if you have something to say about the human experience, I am absolutely 100% there. Yeah, that's. I appreciate that. And then comics are beautiful because they're a collaborative medium. Even if you have a story that has some similar hallmarks, if you put a different art style, aesthetic approach on those, then you get something different. Anyway. Yeah, I'm not intimidated by it. Some people are. In fact, we get that a lot where people are afraid touch Superman because they don't want to break him. He's a symbol. Right. So you're like, what am I doing? I get that with artists. I get that with writers a lot. A lot.

29:19
Case
I just have to remind them that Jimmy Olsen was transformed into a werewolf 25 issues apart. Twice.

29:24
Paul
Sure. Yeah. That Jimmy stuff, that's hard to reconcile in continuity. Mark does a good job.

29:30
Case
He does, yeah.

29:32
Paul
Mark Wade does a good job. But, yeah, it's not intimidating for me in that way. I would rather Clark be. In my opinion, he's the most human character in dc, maybe even in comics. Even though he's not human canonically, he's our POV character on humanity. And he wants to believe in people. He wants to do good, and he makes mistakes. And the thing I. The thing that drives me nuts is when people write him as too perfect. People tend to write him actually sometimes like a school principal. That drives me nuts where he comes and tells you what you should and shouldn't be doing or that he's very disappointed in you. He's not very disappointed in you actually guiding the way for you. He's not a headmaster dictating rules about how to live your life.

30:21
Paul
He is trying to show you the way and to embrace his values and. And live his values ideally.

30:28
Case
I mean, going. Going back to that burn arrow, Superman. There is, like, the scene in man of Steel where, like, someone's, like, playing their music too loud and he, like, turns it down and just like, have a good day, citizen. Which. Which certainly feels a bit of that whole monitory kind of Superman, The. The high school principal that we're talking about here.

30:46
Paul
I. That drives me nuts. It happens all the time. Yeah. But as long as I'm working on it, I avoid that stuff because that makes him annoying. And you shouldn't be on that note.

30:58
Case
Discussing the humanity of Superman and how he is the most human of them. How, how do you go about approaching the super family? It's bigger than ever now. Or maybe not bigger than ever, but it's as big as it's ever been. How do you keep them all feeling distinct and, you know, part of one world while at the same time being distinct? And then I have a follow up question, which is why should the Matrix entity Supergirl make a return?

31:26
Paul
Yeah, so that was the other big part of when I came on Superman. I was, I was noticing that there was a lot of different super cast and they were all kind of scattered and there was not a good structure to them from my vantage point. So I thought, well, let's give some organization to the super family. Let's give a consistent visual style to the super family. So that's where the jackets come from. You know, I think the jackets primarily are the fault of Bob Harris's X Men era.

31:59
Case
Yeah, I was about to say the Jim Lee X Men era.

32:03
Paul
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a real jacket problem, to be honest with you. Yeah. That's why I was like, I'll put them all in a similar look. And Dan Mora did those designs and I knew I could trust Dan to do them. And I want Superman to be the only one that has a cape, purposefully, because I want Superman, well, I guess in Steel, but I want Superman to be distinct amongst them and for them to all feel of a piece, kind of like a team. And that was the thought. And so the COVID of Action 1051 in a nutshell is my mission statement about the super family. That image alone is what I was hoping to achieve. Whether I, you know, we did or not is debatable.

32:47
Paul
I've heard a lot of criticism that when you get that many Kryptonian powered beings together, it all seem. Starts to seem ridiculous, which is fair. My, my attempt was to do kind of what James Tynan's Batman, or rather Detective, did, where he brought them all the back cast under one roof, kind of made them more of like a team. So it was really my attempt to give them structure and also to make sure characters like Kong Kennen were not ignored or brushed aside or Memory hold or something. Because.

33:17
Case
Because they're great.

33:19
Paul
Yeah, yeah, they're great. And everybody's got a favorite one, right? So like, yeah, is, are the odds that your favorite super cast member is Kong Kennen? You know, is that high the odds? No, but he's great. Character. And, like, there's huge Connor fans out there. John now means something to people. Like, John is now not just a great character in the story. He's an icon of queer culture. There's all kinds of good reasons Supergirl fans, like, I got to know Supergirl fans pretty damn well when I was working on that Rebirth run. There's all kinds of reasons. So I was trying to put them all together. Now I think we're at a point where, hey, we've been together for a couple years, we can maybe start to send them off on their own a little bit.

33:57
Paul
Make sure they have something interesting to do, though. So we have some Connor plans that mainly involve the Green Lantern titles. You'll be seeing Connor in the Green Lantern books. Hopefully be doing some interesting things there. Supergirl now has her own title again. The wonderful Sophie Campbell is doing just awesome kind of punk rock Supergirl. It's really. I'm impressed with that book. Brittany Holzer, the aforementioned Themyscira senior editor, is working on that. Yeah, John is over in Secret six, and we've got some other John plans for the Superman Unlimited book. So now they're kind of branching off a little, just trying to bring them together and then maybe time to shift them apart again.

34:38
Case
Nice. And with my follow up question, why should the Matrix entity Supergirl make a return, in your words?

34:44
Paul
Well, I can't get into actual spoilers with that one. The Matrix as a concept will have lots to do in the coming year.

34:55
Case
Oh, dear God.

35:00
Paul
That is all I can say about that. It is, I think, gonna be kind of kickass and cool. I look forward to hearing what people say. But yeah, there's. There's an interesting thing coming up. That's all I can say about that. Keep your eye on the Justice League specials we're doing. Yeah, that's about all I can say.

35:18
Case
Okay, on that note, is there a Superman villain you think deserves way more love than they usually get? Like, do you?

35:24
Paul
Atomic Skull.

35:25
Case
Atomic Skull. Okay.

35:27
Paul
Is one of my favorites. I love Atomic Skull. I loved. He Broke Good and I loved it for him. And then when I left the super titles, they kind of just put him back to being a punching bag again. I was so sad because the. When you read Phil Menz's Superwoman, he turned Atomic Skull into a symbol prison reform. And I was like, oh, my God. And there's something intrinsically, like, funny about that, but also, like, very endearing and also, like, extremely character driven about a guy who's literally walking around as a flaming Skull. Face who everyone has a judgment about, I guess coming back to letting my X Men show a little bit. But who. Who doesn't, like, necessarily want to be bad. He just kind of looks bad. And so he's leaned in over the years.

36:16
Paul
So anyway, you'll see in my editorial career, a bizarre fascination with Atomic Skull. He pops up everywhere. He's in Batman Superman. You see him, we opened Batman Superman 9, I think on a splash page of him running through the street like I'm fucking ever. Oh, sorry.

36:31
Case
Swore it's a guy who explains me. Or a blue podcast. It's a Superman blue podcast.

36:38
Paul
Superman blue. Yeah. So I love Atomic Skull. Yeah. I do love Conduit Candy Braverman's got more story in him, I think. I really like Maxima. I think when done right, Maxima can work well. I don't love the sort of hokier, transparently male, gazy version of her, but I think there's something about her not necessarily lusting after a mate, but seeking a king to her queen. Like the Borg Queen seeking Locutus. Like, I think the Borg Queen and Maxima have some light connective tissue. Pick up the Superman treasury that will be available a couple days before the Superman movie for more on my Maxima fascination. I like Hank Henshaw. He can be done too much. I find myself doing too much with him just because he's a really cool visual and the Terminator made a huge impression on me as a child.

37:35
Paul
But I like Hank Henshaw a lot. And I think eradicator, under the right circumstances, is really an interesting concept. A lot of fun to play with. I have lots of Zod ideas. Keep your eyes peeled. There's lots of hints being dropped that Zod things brewing.

37:51
Case
Yes. I've noticed that in the Superwoman arc that has been going on.

37:56
Paul
Yes. Yeah. There we did a book. Neil before Zod. That book was originally. It started. It was inspired. I wanted to do a book that was like Wrath of Khan, where after he got not. Not in the sense of him attacking Superman, but in the sense of seeing what happened on City Alpha 5. So the. The. That was the original intent of like, okay, Zod has conquered a world. The book diverged from that because as, and this is true, I am not the writer. I did approach. I guess I could talk about this. I did approach Nick Meyer to write that initially. He was very sweet. He took the meeting. I got to talk to Nick Meyer.

38:38
Case
Which is super cool. For those not familiar.

38:41
Paul
Writer of Star Trek II and co writer of three and co writer of four and writer.

38:46
Case
Yeah, yeah, no, and beyond.

38:47
Paul
But like, he's one of my heroes. And he took the meeting and he did decline ultimately, but it was really cool to be able to talk to Nick Meyer. I was like, oh my God, there he is, the guy from the DVD special features. So that was really special. So, yeah, I love Zod. I love Zod and Ursa and Nan and all that stuff. So there'll be more to come on that fruit.

39:13
Case
Well, I had a note to ask you about stuff that you're excited about. About, but I feel like we've kind of covered a lot of the big things that you've. That you've teased so far. Is there anything else that you're. That you can tease that you're excited about?

39:23
Paul
Coming up, Superman Unlimited. Don't sleep on that book. That is right now. I wanted to. There's three super titles, three core super titles. We have Superman Unlimited and Action Comics. Past, Present and Future. Action Comics. Is Mark Waid telling the story of Superman as Superboy canonically for the first time in modern continuity. It's a nice, lovely, fleshed out, character driven, heart forward companion to the history of the DC Universe. He's also writing Superman Unlimited is really the present day Superman cast dealing with the new world imbalance of all of this fresh Kryptonite, the Kryptonite kingdom, the Kryptonite forces that reside within that kingdom, and a new Kryptonite king. There's a lot of great stuff brewing in Superman Unlimited by Dan Slott and Rafa Albuquerque and then Superman. The book will primarily be dealing with the broader all in stuff.

40:27
Paul
So that's the Legion of Darkseid. That is the arc that began in the All In Special and continued on and the creation of the Absolute Universe and all that. So if you really want to have the heartbeat of the future of where DC is going, Superman does herald that future in the core Superman title. So check out Superman 28. That's going to be a big one. That's the Legion of Dark side story arc. So past, present, future, it gets different flavors, all of which are crucially important Superman pieces. And all of which I am so happy exist. It's really a beautiful thing because I love this character. I really want to. My goal was to grow the line, grow the Superman line.

41:13
Paul
And if you look at the welcome to Metropolis editorial spreads we're now running in the books, you can see on the far right, the books starting to get bigger and multiply and get more so it's an exciting time because there's a lot of content by a lot of really great creators.

41:30
Case
Yeah, it's a very exciting time. On that note, looking at the time, I think I need to let you go. One last question before we do. What's the big bugaboo that you've got? What is the biggest misconception fans have about working on comics that grinds your gears?

41:45
Paul
I thought you were gonna say about Superman, people writing Superman. I can tell you that one and then I'll tell you the answer.

41:50
Case
Sure.

41:51
Paul
The thing that bothers me the most, when people write Superman like a dummy. He's not a dummy. He is the world's second best investigative reporter. People write him like an idiot and it mangles my brain when that happens. He is not. He is smart. Superman figures things out. He's not as smart or maybe as specialized as somebody like Batman or the Question or something, but he is intelligent and should be written as such.

42:18
Case
Agreed? Agreed.

42:20
Paul
Yeah, so that is. That's my Superman bugaboo, because I see that a lot too. Not only does he come across as a prince, he somehow comes across as Strickland and Biff at the same time in like, different ways. Manners. It drives me nuts. But then, Mr. Strickland, the thing about comics, I'm going to borrow from Andrea Shea, senior editor at dc. She does wonderful work. She does all the DC Pride specials and a lot of Black Label stuff and works on wonderful books. She wrote online one time because people asked that question and it was, we're not intentionally trying to destroy your favorite things because we all get passionate about this stuff. I get passionate about this stuff. I have very strong opinions about Star Trek and comics and all that stuff.

43:08
Paul
And I've been guilty in my younger years of holding creators responsible for what I deemed to be poor decisions with the characters. We're not trying to do that. If you read a book in good faith, that's the best thing you can do as a consumer of art. It's reading the book in bad faith that starts to brew all kinds of nasty things in fandom that no one really needs. We don't need that. Assume the person writing it wants to do right by the characters, even if you don't agree. So that would be my biggest thing. Read in good faith. We're all here to have fun with our favorite cast. And if we're doing our job right, you'll be happy. And if not, the beauty of a long running comic series is that things will change. People change, cast change. All Kinds of stuff changes.

44:06
Case
Okay, on that note, I think I gotta let you go, buddy. But thank you for coming on. Thank you for chatting. It's really good getting some FaceTime with you. It's been now, I guess probably like two years since last time we talked.

44:21
Paul
I have no idea. But he probably. That sounds about right.

44:25
Case
So on that note, where can people find you and follow you? How much do you want people to find you and follow you? And then where can they do.

44:33
Paul
So, yeah, you can find me on social. I'm on Instagram, Old TimeyPaul, bluesky and Twitter and all that stuff. So I'm around. But the best thing you can do is find me in the comics. I now write column in the Superbooks, channeling my inner Tom DeFalco, my inner child. When I finally got allowed to do that at dc, I was so happy because I remember reading those Tom DeFalcom as a kid. So I was like, boy, this is really special. So you can hear me blathering in there as well.

45:04
Case
Awesome. Well, people should find you, follow you and be checking out all the books that you're working on as much as their budget allows because you've got a lot going out there.

45:14
Paul
There's a lot, yeah.

45:15
Case
In the meantime, people can find my co host, J Mike, when he is. When. When he is able to be out in the social world. You can find on Bluesky 5Bsky Social. That's J A Y 5Bsky Social. As for me, you can find me at Case Aiken Bsky Social on most of the platforms. You can find me on Instagram @quetzalcoatl5 because I'm holding onto my AIM screen name for dear life. You can also find us on our Discord server. You can find links to the Discord server at the Certain POV website or in the show notes for this episode. Check it out. It's a good old time. We have great conversations. And on that note, we need to thank some people who are now at the executive producer level of the Patreon for the show.

45:58
Case
Men of Steel is part of the Certain POV Media Patreon. And so we've got a bunch of people to thank who are at the executive producer level. And that includes Micah McCaw, Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, Lee Greger, Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Mastropiero, Casey and Nancy Aiken, Adam Sampter and Keith Linton.

46:16
Paul
Adam.

46:17
Case
Yeah.

46:19
Paul
Hi, Adam.

46:20
Case
Adam.

46:20
Paul
Miss you, buddy.

46:21
Case
Adam is the aforementioned friend. That is how we know each other.

46:23
Paul
Last time I saw you, were down the Jersey Shore in a haze, I think.

46:31
Case
But, Paul, thank you again for coming on. It's really wonderful talking to you listeners. Check out what we've got going on. Check out all the Paul stuff. Check out our stuff. We've got more great shows. I should be plugging a specific show. I will plug a specific show. I gotta plug Long Live the Legion, which is our new Legion of Superhero podcast that is part of the certain POV family. Going into deep dives on the Legion of Superheroes with Jim and Jay. We just did a crossover with them last episode, so check that out.

47:00
Paul
Oh, my God. I'm gonna have to listen to that myself. I am reading Case a lot of Legion lately. A lot of it.

47:07
Case
Well, then Jim and Jay can help you out. Long Live the Legion podcast. It's a great show. Going into deep dives on characters in the Legion and having fun with stories. And like I said, we just did a crossover with them, talking about Legion foundations and we had artist Chris Batista on to talk about it as well. So it was a great old time.

47:25
Paul
That sounds awesome.

47:26
Case
Yeah, it's an extra long episode. This is way shorter one for everyone. After the, I think five hours that we did between the two, we'll have.

47:35
Paul
To do another episode to talk about Legion of Darkseid. You're going to see Dan Mora draw those characters.

47:40
Case
I know. We're so excited about that.

47:43
Paul
It's really nuts. There's a Chameleon Boy panel that I was like, I don't think Chameleon Boy has ever looked that cool.

47:50
Case
I was like, oh, my God.

47:52
Paul
Yeah, there's a really great. There's a lot of cool stuff coming up. I've recently become, for work, extremely interested in the Legion. I'm getting, like a huge education on that. Talk about lore. But it's fun. It's super fun.

48:07
Case
Oh, man. There's plenty of people who are excited to hear you say that.

48:11
Paul
So, yeah, you're going to have a lot of fun things to look forward to, I think in the next year.

48:16
Case
The Legion and the Matrix entity, Supergirl, all of these are being teased on the Men of Steel podcast. What a wonderful time.

48:24
Paul
Thanks, Case. This is a lot of fun.

48:25
Case
Yeah, no, thank you. And on that note, until next time, stay super man. Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Fsen and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Ricciardi.

48:47
Paul
Our logo is by Chris Batista and episode art is by Case Aiken.

48:52
Case
Our theme is by Jeff Moonan. Do you have a comic book, you just can't stop thinking about, one that stuck with you years later. On Trade School, guest hosts get the mic to talk about a graphic novel that changed the way they see the world or just made them fall in love with comics all over again. In just five to 15 minutes, you'll hear stories about the stories that real people love the most. Trade School, a short form ongoing series about the comic book trade paperbacks we love and why we love them. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. CPOV certainpov.com.