Another Pass at The Beach

From the Between Awesome and Disaster podcast, Will Carey returns to talk about the post-Titanic curiosity in Leonardo Dicaprio’s career, The Beach.

Find Will’s stuff here!

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Another Pass Full Episode

Originally aired: May 13, 2022

Music by Vin Macri and Matt Brogan

Podcast Edited by Matt Storm

Certain Point Of View is a podcast network brining you all sorts of nerdy goodness! From Star Wars role playing, to Disney day dreaming, to video game love, we've got the show for you! Learn more on our website: https://www.certainpov.com

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Notes

Film Critique and Character Analysis

The core issue with The Beach lies in its protagonist's unlikability and the lack of character growth, which diminishes audience engagement and narrative depth (03:00).

• Richard as a Flawed Protagonist (03:24)

  • Richard is consistently selfish, manipulative, and destructive throughout the film.

  • His actions, including murder and betrayal, drive the plot but lack clear motivation or consequence.

  • Sam expressed strong dislike for Richard, highlighting his refusal to take responsibility and the absence of meaningful punishment.

  • The moral ambiguity around his actions, such as the mercy killing of a dying man, does little to redeem him.

• Supporting Characters’ Ambiguous Morality (27:01)

  • Kiri is noted as the most likable character, acting as a guide and voice of reason.

  • Etienne shows redeeming qualities by confronting Richard yet remains passive about the romantic betrayal.

  • Sal is portrayed as a manipulative cult leader who coerces Richard and maintains control through intimidation and sexual favors.

  • The rest of the commune members serve mostly as background, lacking development or clear roles.

• Character Dynamics and Relationships (18:00)

  • The motivation behind the trio’s travel together is weakly established, undermining narrative coherence.

  • Lack of bonding scenes before the journey reduces emotional investment.

  • The romantic subplot involving Richard and Francois is seen as unnecessary and detracts from the main story.

  • The film misses chances to explore complex relationship dynamics within the commune.

• Narrative and Thematic Shortcomings (50:47)

  • The film sanitizes darker cult and community issues, resulting in a lack of tension and stakes.

  • The absence of significant consequences for characters undermines the story’s impact.

  • The white, privileged perspective dominates, with little self-awareness or critique of colonialism and entitlement.

  • The movie fails to explore the psychological or social breakdown within the commune, missing an opportunity akin to Lord of the Flies.

Cultural and Colonial Critique

The film’s portrayal of Thailand and its people reflects a colonialist perspective that marginalizes locals and centers the story around white characters’ experiences (05:37).

• White-Centered Narrative and Exoticism (06:12)

  • Thai characters are mostly depicted as mystical, hostile, or subservient, reinforcing stereotypes.

  • The setting could be interchangeable with any Southeast Asian country due to lack of authentic cultural representation.

  • The story is told entirely through Richard’s entitled, white perspective, limiting deeper cultural insight.

  • This approach reflects early 2000s cinema’s limited engagement with colonialism and cultural sensitivity.

• Historical and Environmental Impact (47:05)

  • The filming damaged the real-life beach, causing long-term environmental harm and requiring closure for recovery in 2021.

  • The film inadvertently contributed to the commercial overexposure and degradation of the natural site it depicts.

  • This real-world parallel mirrors the movie’s theme of destructive, entitled outsiders invading a pristine environment.

• White Privilege and Entitlement (25:18)

  • The commune’s members embody white privilege by appropriating protected land and expecting creature comforts.

  • The film critiques this entitlement but lacks sufficient self-awareness or narrative consequences.

  • The characters’ attitudes and actions reflect a cynical but unchallenged colonial mindset.

• Missed Opportunities for Depth (08:38)

  • The film could have better explored the perspective of local inhabitants or the complexities of cultural interaction.

  • The narrative’s failure to question Richard’s viewpoint leaves colonial themes underdeveloped.

  • Case and Sam note that the book has more nuanced elements that the film does not capture.

Plot and Structural Criticism

The movie suffers from unclear motivations, weak plot development, and an unsatisfying third act that fails to capitalize on its themes or characters (49:01).

• Unclear Motivations and Plot Mechanics (18:00)

  • The reason the protagonists seek the secret beach is vague and insufficiently developed.

  • The illegal nature of the commune’s location and activities lacks tension or realistic enforcement threats.

  • Scenes involving the commune’s operations and interactions with local farmers are underexplored.

  • The film glosses over key plot points, such as the murder of a man and the origins of the map.

• Third Act Weaknesses and Deviations from the Book (49:29)

  • The movie’s third act lacks clarity and fails to deliver a compelling climax or resolution.

  • Unlike the book, which features a drug-fueled escape and factional breakdown, the film’s ending feels sanitized and anticlimactic.

  • The cult’s collapse is understated, with few deaths and no real transformation or accountability.

  • The final scenes show Richard seemingly unscarred and well-adjusted, diminishing narrative impact.

• Narrative Pacing and Character Development Gaps (01:12:49)

  • Character moments are sparse, and key relationships lack development or depth.

  • Sudden emotional outbursts by Richard feel unearned and inconsistent.

  • The film misses chances for ensemble storytelling, focusing narrowly on Richard’s unreliable narration.

  • The lack of meaningful interactions reduces audience connection to the characters or stakes.

• Cultural Disconnect in Plot Elements (01:14:43)

  • The depiction of nightlife, social behavior, and community dynamics feels shallow and unrealistic.

  • Requests for makeup remover and tampons highlight inconsistencies in commune life and resource management.

  • The film portrays the commune as toxic and possessive, contradictory to the ideal of communal living.

Production and Direction Insights

Directorial choices and casting decisions impact the film’s tone, character portrayal, and overall coherence, limiting its potential (01:04:36).

• Casting Impact on Character Tone (01:04:36)

  • Leonardo DiCaprio was a recast; Ewan McGregor was originally intended to play Richard.

  • Some dialogue and character traits feel more suited to a British cultural context, which McGregor could have embodied.

  • DiCaprio’s intense outbursts are seen as overdone and uneven, affecting character credibility.

  • The director’s encouragement of these explosive moments may have hindered nuanced performances.

• Direction and Visual Style (01:26:03)

  • The film is praised for beautiful cinematography and showcasing Thailand’s scenery.

  • Visual elements like hallucinations and set design effectively convey mood but lack narrative support.

  • Some scenes, such as the snake blood ritual and the commune’s environment, create strong atmospheric moments.

  • However, direction fails to unify these into a cohesive story with clear stakes and character arcs.

• Script Limitations and Narrative Choices (01:26:58)

  • The script’s focus on Richard’s selfish viewpoint narrows the story and limits character complexity.

  • Key plot threads and motivations from the original book are omitted or underdeveloped.

  • The film’s sanitized tone weakens themes of cult dynamics, drug use, and social decay.

  • Dialogue and scenes sometimes feel disconnected or underexplained, reducing audience engagement.

• Production Constraints and Missed Opportunities (01:10:54)

  • Some plot points, such as the murder mystery and conspiracy theories, are hinted at but not resolved.

  • The film misses chances to explore cult life realistically, including drug use, social rituals, and internal power struggles.

  • The absence of a dangerous or suspenseful journey to and from the island reduces tension.

  • Budget or rating concerns may have limited the portrayal of mature or explicit content.

Improvement Suggestions and Alternative Approaches

The panel proposed changes to deepen character development, enhance narrative tension, and address thematic gaps for a stronger film (01:32:00).

• Ensemble Storytelling and Richer Characterization (01:32:00)

  • Will advocates for an ensemble approach to explore diverse characters’ motivations and backgrounds.

  • More time on the beach and commune life would build a fuller picture of the community dynamics.

  • Developing interpersonal relationships and conflicts could raise stakes and audience investment.

  • Incorporating more of the book’s plot, such as factional splits and a drug-fueled escape, would increase drama.

• Stronger Opening and Relationship Foundations (01:34:35)

  • Sam suggests establishing the protagonists’ relationships earlier to build emotional context.

  • Opening scenes could show them meeting or bonding in a hotel or bar before the island journey.

  • Introducing a conspiracy involving local authorities and drug trade would add suspense and complexity.

  • More detailed depiction of the commune’s operations and power struggles would deepen the narrative.

• Heightened Conflict and Consequences (01:38:45)

  • The travel to and from the island should be risky, with threats from law enforcement or locals.

  • The commune’s breakdown should involve violent or dramatic confrontations, including arrests or deaths.

  • Richard should face real consequences, such as injury or imprisonment, to reflect his actions’ gravity.

  • Adding drug use and cult rituals like orgies or psychedelic experiences would enrich the atmosphere.

• Increased Cultural Awareness and Thematic Depth (01:41:51)

  • Case proposes focusing on Western cultural imposition and colonialist themes from the start.

  • The film could highlight the clash between indigenous farmers, cult members, and external authorities.

  • More exposition on the island’s significance and the commune’s fragility would clarify stakes.

  • Ending with a more dramatic escape, arrests, or fracturing of the commune would provide satisfying closure.

Podcast and Host Information

The discussion was led by Case Aiken and Sam Alicea with guest Will Carey, who shared insights from his podcast and musical background (01:55:31).

• Will Carey’s Background and Platforms (01:55:37)

  • Will is a stand-up comic and host of Between Awesome and Disaster podcast featuring interviews with comedians and musicians.

  • He plays bass in the punk band Bright Ugly.

  • His content is available at awesome disaster.com and on Twitter and Instagram under handles related to his name.

• Hosts’ Platforms and Community Engagement (01:56:14)

  • Sam is active on Discord and engages with fans mostly through the podcast community.

  • Case hosts Another Pass podcast and contributes to the Certain POV network.

  • The network offers multiple shows including CPOV Autographs, an interview series hosted by editor Matt Storm.

  • Listeners are encouraged to subscribe, review, and engage via certainpov.com and social media.

• Upcoming Topics and Show Structure (01:57:26)

  • The next episode will cover Highlander 2: The Quickening.

  • The podcast includes detailed film analysis with a focus on re-examining flawed movies.

  • The hosts emphasize open discussion and critical perspectives beyond surface-level criticism.

• Production Team and Credits (01:57:51)

  • The podcast is produced by Certain POV with editing by Matt Storm.

  • Visual and audio branding is created by Case Aiken and contributors Vin Macri and Matt Brogan.

  • The tone is conversational, blending humor with deep film critique.

Transcription

00:00
Sam
Yeah, but that guy was totally going to die and he was slowly dying of gangrene.

00:03
Case
Oh, yeah, I agree.

00:04
Sam
It's like the pragmatic side of me is like, that's the one murder that might be gray area. Okay. Like, that's almost a mercy kill.

00:16
Will
Welcome to Certain POVs, another past podcast.

00:19
Case
With Case and Sam where we take.

00:21
Will
Another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them.

00:29
Case
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another past podcast. I'm Case Akin and as always, I am joined by my coast, Sam Alisea.

00:35
Sam
Hi.

00:36
Case
And today we have a wonderful podcaster joining us to continue a streak. We've got Will Carey from the between awesome and Disaster podcast.

00:45
Will
Hello.

00:46
Case
Now, Will, last time you were on, were talking about a movie that frankly should have been a fifth episode. Maybe it was us attempting to polish one of the most finely tuned, near perfect movies ever. We were talking about Titanic.

01:01
Will
Yes. Yes. We were arguably like one of the most perfect three hour historical epics ever made. And were trying to improve upon that. Yeah.

01:12
Case
Which is not outside of the realm of what you should be trying to do with art. You can always work to improve it and so forth. But it was certainly a challenge to be like, all right, so I found a spot. We need to refine it here.

01:24
Will
Yeah. Exactly where most of my thoughts were. Like, I know so much more about this event. Why didn't they put. Why isn't it four hours? I just want more. It's so, like, I was just of a movie that some people think is really long. I was like, more. And. Or like, oh. I really like the detail that they got on the paneling of the wood in that. In that one stateroom. That was where I was coming at it.

01:48
Sam
Those sets were pretty good. So. Yes. Yeah.

01:51
Case
Oh, I mean. I mean, a well made movie, wonderfully paced, a commercial success, a critical darling. Like, it was a wonderful movie. That's not what we're talking about today.

02:02
Will
Oh, no, no, we are.

02:04
Sam
We are not.

02:06
Will
No, we are taking a tonal switch, but we are staying on my established beat on the show, which is the Leonardo DiCaprio beat.

02:13
Case
Yes. So we are talking about another movie from a good director featuring Leonardo DiCaprio. But it is not a critical success nor a commercial. D. In fact, this is often seen as sort of the public backlash to Leo following Titanic. Because today we are talking about the.

02:31
Sam
Beach, which is no walk on a beach at all. This was. This is not easy to watch. I don't know if I would have liked it when it was first released, to be very honest with you. But definitely this has not aged well for me, and I did not enjoy my time in this story. I will be honest. There are good elements.

02:55
Case
Yeah, this is definitely a sand in your shorts kind of movie, but, yeah,

03:00
Sam
Not just your shorts. In every crevice of your body there's sand everywhere. And you're just like, why? Why is there sand everywhere? Because that's the big question when it comes to this movie. Also, the protagonist is an ass from the beginning, and he continues to be an ass, and he ends as an ass. And I hate him. I hate Richard. I want you guys to know I hate him.

03:24
Will
Yes. There's not a ton of no characters really have an arc as far as, like, undergoing, like, a substantive change in who they are over. Over the course of our time with them. And I'm inclined to agree with you, Sam. And the director of this movie realized that as well. I read a quote from Denny Boyle about halfway through production where he said, I hate all of these characters.

03:50
Case
Which is a scary epiphany to have halfway through a shoot.

03:54
Sam
Yeah.

03:54
Case
Like, to have no one that you can, like, hang an emotional hat on.

03:58
Will
Well, exactly. Because each of these characters represents a different insufferable personality type from the late 90s to early 2000s.

04:06
Sam
Yes, this is true. Absolutely.

04:10
Case
Now, Sam, I think you hit on a key point that we should discuss here, which is the. The hate that the movie had at the time it came out is very different than the objections I have to it, having only now watched it this week for this episode. Like, at the time, there was a lot of, like, oh, look at Leonardo DiCaprio. He's so dreamy. But he was just in that, like, quote unquote chick flick that was Titanic, which is all, like, kind of like, basically, like.

04:33
Sam
Right.

04:33
Case
There's a lot of public backlash that just didn't make any sense. It was just people not liking that a thing was popular.

04:40
Sam
Yeah.

04:41
Case
And that's. That was not cool.

04:42
Sam
I mean, the obsession with him was pretty real. I was never like, team Leo. I'll be very honest. I'm not. I'm not knocking him, like, you know, but. But that. But the girls around me, like, my peers, there were plenty of people that, like, exaggerately would die for Leo. Like, they're, you know, exactly like Tumblr culture, like, would die for cinnamon roll. That is, like, how people felt about Leo. So I get it. That's where the backlash always comes in. Right. Every time Someone hits that point.

05:13
Case
Right. And a lot of that is misogyny.

05:15
Sam
Yes. Especially when it's like women who really feel strongly about it. There's always that very strong misogynistic backlash for what they love.

05:25
Will
Absolutely.

05:26
Sam
Yeah.

05:26
Case
So we're right off the bat going to say, that's not what we're here for. We're not just going to be bashing on it because it's like, ooh, look at that pretty boy. Like, that is not what I'm complaining about. What I'm going to complain about is the colonialism.

05:37
Sam
Yeah.

05:37
Will
Oh, yeah.

05:38
Sam
No, like, this movie is really terrible because the only time that, like, it's in Thailand and the only time that you really have any speaking Thai roles, they're either kind of spooky, magical or. Or downright the bad guys. Like, you know, so there's not a lot of. Yeah, there's not a lot of actual people from there. And that's. I get it. Sometimes when people travel, they don't necessarily always interact with locals. But yeah, this movie is pretty bad at that stuff.

06:12
Will
Yeah. Because you get like, with getting into it, like the main characters that are Thai are the farmers that are growing wheat on the island that we get into later. Or there's this guy who's like, oh, come drink snake blood with us. Or people who work in the hot. Or there's the people he interacts with in the hospitality industry. It's very. And I don't think were ready to have the colonialism conversation when this movie came out. I don't even think that was a word that was even a part of the mainstream conversation at the time. But yeah, it's very much a. We are telling very much like a white person centered story in a beautiful country with so much to tell.

06:58
Sam
And honestly, it's so much so that you probably could have put this in any of the southeastern, eastern, east, can't talk southeastern countries. And it probably could have worked just as well. It's just like there's not very much that's like, other than like, yes, we're in Thailand and these are the names of islands we. It could have possibly been anywhere.

07:21
Case
Well, actually, that's a funny point because the book that this movie is based on is, well, not autobiographical, is based on travels by the author Alex Garland. And his travels weren't in Thailand, they were in the Philippines. And so it was actually in that same scenario of being like, oh, like, look at these paradises. These are the things that I experience while also feeling like I was Surrounded by the other and trying to take those and kind of combine it with news stories about like a hippie commune that I was reading about. So there's like, stuff being pulled together that I. I understand the sentiment. Like, I understand. And I would say that I haven't read the book. I've read synopsis of the book. But in the movie there are moments where it does seem reflective on these components.

08:05
Case
But I think that it is too caught up in being cynical and not self aware enough. And that's kind of a depressing part because there are snippets like the farmers at the end making. Well, first of all, they aggressively are trying not to kill anyone, which I think is a nice detail considering that they're scary people with machine guns at a wheat field. That even the very last part where we get this standoff with an unloaded gun intentionally just to indicate that a person is, you know, trying to break their spirit without actually risking anyone's bodily harm. Like, there are moments there where, oh, these characters are presented as intelligent individuals. And so it is possible that the intent was for this to be strictly from the point of view of Richard.

08:51
Case
But I think that works better in a book than in a movie because the. The audience tends to look at the what's on screen as true. And so if it's all from his vantage point of feeling alone and isolated and so forth, like, it doesn't come across that way. It feels at times a little too objective, like everyone is just working for them and that the fact that they don't notice it, we're not supposed to notice it either. And I don't know if. If the goal was to be more conscientious of that thing because Danny Boyle has been conscientious of that in previous works. In Trainspotting, they talk about how Scotland, like, was colonized by wankers and don't even have the decency to be colonized by, like, a decent group. So there is some of that, like.

09:35
Case
Like that viewpoint is out there to a certain degree. I just think that this movie ends up sort of whitewashing it.

09:42
Sam
Yeah, I think that. I think the biggest issue is that because the script is written completely from Richard's point of view and he is a white, entitled, privileged jerk. He's a jerk.

09:55
Will
I'm.

09:55
Sam
It has nothing to do with Leonardo DiCaprio. This character is a jerk. I think that most of what you get is from his point of view. And so, yeah, the script comes off very much in that way. And so, yes, we have moments where there is, like, you know, but he. I don't know. I think the problem is because it's in Richard's head and because it's his point of view, there's. It's hard to reconcile with those. And also, he doesn't take responsibility for anything. And I'm sure we'll get into this more as we go on, but this is my biggest issue, and I'm trying not to go into a rant about this, because, guys, I really hated Richard. I really hated it. I hated him so much.

10:32
Sam
But my biggest issue with this script, with this story, with the way that it is, and I have not read the book, so I don't know, you know, what happens in the book, but with this particular story, Richard is the real villain. Richard destroys everything and anything he touches. He is ridiculously somehow passive, but also super aggressive all at the same time. He. He invites this couple out to travel with him because he's got an alternative motive to steal this guy's girl. And that's why. That is why. Because he is a dick, guys. Richard is a dick. And then everything he does after, whether he means to or not, somehow destroys everything around him. In the end, he. He doesn't really even take responsibility. I mean, there's maybe, like, one line where he's like, I fucked up. Okay? I fucked up.

11:25
Sam
But there are no consequences. Richard never gets punished. And I hate this movie because of it. I kind of wish Richard had died. Guys, I'm gonna be real honest. If I. I don't know. Maybe this is my pitch. Richard should have died. I'm not sure. We'll talk about it when we get there. I. All right, let's talk.

11:43
Will
Well. Well, you are. That's absolutely correct. Because every major. Every thing that happens that moves the plot forward is because of something he did. Like, he gives the map to the surfer. To the surfer dudes. He is the one who ends up having sex with. With Sal. And then after he takes Francois, and then he breaks Francois heart. He. He's the one who kills the die. The dying guy. And in the tent, he's. He's the spark that all the fires come from.

12:14
Sam
And he's totally cool with anything that is, like, borderline gray area. Like when they pull that guy's tooth out of his mouth. And, like, he's clearly in pain. And, like, he's like, no. You know, for this secret, people have to be in pain. It's cool. It's fine. He's totally chill about all the moral gray areas. Richard's a jerk. Go on, Case, you're gonna say?

12:37
Case
Well, no, I mean, he. Like, he is incredibly selfish. Every choice he makes is about his own immediate pleasure, and at no point is concerned with anyone else. Like, weirdly, him murdering a guy is actually, like, the least consequential thing that happens in this.

12:51
Sam
Like, honestly, that's kind of a mercy kill. That's actually possibly the nicest thing he's done in the film besides fishing and actually supporting the community.

13:00
Case
Well, it was still a murder that was selfishly motivated because he wanted to kill. Or he kills the guy so that Etienne and Francois would be okay with leaving. Like, really more than anything.

13:10
Sam
Yeah, but that guy was totally gonna die, and he was slowly dying of gangrene.

13:13
Case
Oh, yeah, I agree.

13:14
Sam
It's like, the pragmatic side of me is, like, that's the one murder that might be gray area. Okay. Like, that's almost a mercy kill. But like everything else, like. Like, there's so much. Like, he lies about everything. He, like, he, like, lies whenever it's convenient for him. He's fine lying. He's fine, like, signing the piece of paper that the cops give him. Also, I'm sorry, I'm gonna go in circles here, because it just brought me up. But, like, we never get to why this man is murdered. There's no way he slit his own throat or his own wrists in the beginning.

13:53
Case
There is a theory about that, yes.

13:55
Sam
But it's. I hate when there's like, oh, my God. There's a backup theory that fans thought of Headcanon. You didn't explain it to me. Why doesn't this tie back in? Why doesn't this come back in? It pisses me off so much.

14:08
Case
Well, when I say there's a theory, it is presented in this, but I think it's better supported in the book from what I've read where that Daffy is kind of like, doing this whole thing to destroy the island unto itself.

14:20
Will
Yeah, I wanted to chime in on that as well, Casey. Yeah. So in the book, Richard is almost. Richard is used by Daffy. Like, Daffy is leaking the beach to people with the intention of destroying what was built. What was built. And Richard almost becomes the vehicle by which that happens. So the book goes into a lot more detail about Daffy's motivations, which I think would be a more interesting choice. I really. I was hoping in one of your. In your rant, Sam, that you were going to mention Richard's shark story in the movie.

14:59
Sam
Oh, yeah.

15:00
Will
Like, you would have been if you were on that island, like, he was telling that story and been like, this guy is so full of shit.

15:06
Sam
I would have been rolling my eyes so hard. Like, I was rolling my eyes so hard while I was watching it. I want you to know that I was like, oh, my God. And I know because I can't. Like, you know, I kind of saw him freak out. So we know, right? But I was like, oh, my God, I hate this guy so much. I already hated him, to be fair. Like, we're, what, like an hour into the movie already? So I've. I've hated him for, like, at least 20 minutes, probably more. But I. I've disliked him for a long time. See, my theory was. And I know I said I hated people had theories, but my theory was that the cops were.

15:39
Sam
Were in on the growing and the farming on the island, and then they got rid of this guy because they wanted to protect their investments. I always go to.

15:47
Case
That'd be nice.

15:48
Sam
I always go into, like, crooked law enforcement in my brain. But I thought, like, that's why, because they wanted to clean it up, like, far too easily, right? And it's not like anyone, as far as we know, from the commune left to come and visit this dude. So I just thought, like, it was, like, literally, like, whatever gang was involved organized crime was involved with. With the actual drug and growing that kind of had this very tentative, like, kind of shaky deal with the. Like, the colonists on. Or the commune. I'll call you. I can call them either the commune on the island.

16:27
Will
The Colomune.

16:28
Sam
The Colombian. Yes, the column. I thought they had, like, kind of like, you know, like, well, this guy's talking about it working. No, no. I know where you can find him so you can take care of him. And then, like, that's why the cops look the other way. But we never, like. We never really get confirmation of that, and it never comes back. And I was just like, that would have been a really cool angle. And I feel like this is another loose end in this movie that annoys me.

16:53
Will
Yes. And the other thing I want to say, since we're kind of starting at the beginning here and with Richard, the. Another pass I would do on the bulk of the script at the beginning is this romantic subplot involving Richard and Francois. Because I don't think it necessarily adds anything. It doesn't bring me in anymore into the story. Like, I was already into the story. Like, oh, secret beach we're trying to find.

17:18
Case
Okay, cool.

17:20
Will
And from what I've gathered, the Book doesn't have that. Like, they're all, like. It's all. They're this kind of group of friends, and that doesn't really come into it. And it's just kind of like, maybe I get it because you have the heartthrob, romantic heartthrob at the time. Or maybe some producers, like, well, we gotta throw in a romance supply. But I don't think it really. It doesn't add much for me. And, like, you're saying, Sam, it just creates more opportunities for our protagonist, who we don't get a ton of character development on. And the narration at the beginning does. A good point of saying we're not gonna get any. Doesn't do too much to, like, make you want to root for him.

18:00
Sam
Yeah. I think also, like, I'm not sure. Like, our big question, why? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Like, other than, like, oh, she was, like, really hot in the hallway, and she helped me open my door. Like, I don't understand. Like, the movie doesn't explain to me why he zeros in on these two people to travel with. I have no kind of, like, feeling of, like, why them? And, like, why did they say yes? Like, why, like, why do you meet? I mean, like, okay, like, hey, we're just adventurous, maybe, but that's. For me, it's, like, almost not enough, like, to rearrange your entire trip and start rearranging and making all these plans to go to this secret island. Like. And maybe it's just like, me. I'm. Maybe I'm just too much of a. I. I do travel.

18:42
Sam
I like travel, but maybe I'm just too much of a rule follower. My whole thing is, like, what. Why would I follow someone I don't know to go to an island that is technically a protected land? That would technically be me breaking the law of the country I'm in currently with a stranger. I'm always worried about being murdered. Guys, I would not be doing this no matter what, but, like, it. Like, I feel like there should have been, to your point, a scene or two in the beginning where they became friends somewhere in a bar so that there was, like, a reason to want to keep traveling together. There's no bonding before it. Just her opening a door.

19:21
Case
Yeah. Or have them be together, arriving as. As backpackers. Because that, I feel like, would also just make more sense and be economical. Like, they just already were traveling together. And you just established, oh, yeah, we knew each other or we met on the way out here. Like, you don't even need to have a lot of backstory for them. They could have, but just introduce them as already having linked up and, like, are traveling together. So at least you get that vibe. But Sam, you brought up the thing that I keep going back to every time I look at this. And it's the thing that frustrates me, which is that this whole. The why of what. Why are they going to this place? Why do they care about this place?

20:01
Case
Why does any of that make sense when it is, as you note, a protected island. It's a state park or a national park that is protected so that people don't travel there specifically because they're trying to protect it all. And, like, that's why. Like, okay, well, we can sneak in and grow weed. Kind of makes enough sense. Like, all right, they're trying to, like, hide that thing. It is a little weird looking at this in 2022 and being like, wait, this is all about weed?

20:28
Will
Like, yeah, it's kind of odd motivation. My, my read on it is that this crew, maybe Richard specifically, they see themselves as kind of like free spirited. Like they're searching for something, so they're going to faraway places to look. To look for it. But they, but they're not your typical tourists. You know, they. They read. They read like Lonely Planet or whatever. They don't go to the touristy spots. They're not. They're not in. They're not in Thailand for all the typical trappings of Thailand. They're here for something quasi spiritual. So they're going off the beaten path. And then this is. And we're going to find like minded people that are also off the beaten path.

21:08
Sam
Yeah.

21:08
Will
Which I sort of vaguely understand. I've known a couple backpack types in my life, but again, there's just not a ton You're. There's not a ton. They don't give you a ton of information on this.

21:19
Case
I get that part because, like, I will say that there is an element of it that is supported by the text, particularly by. By Richard's like, voiceovers saying, like, wants to avoid people, wants to avoid the tourist traps, like, those kind of things. I actually don't think we spend enough time with it like that. Like, that's honestly my biggest objection because everything is so beautiful, especially once they get to, like, the last beach they stay at where, like, they meet the surfer dudes. Like, wait, you're in, like, a nice little villa that's on the beach. Like, there are people with beer and drugs. Like, why Are you like, oh, we need to find a more pristine, perfect place than this pristine, perfect place that we're at? Yeah, that's. That's the weird part right there.

21:56
Sam
Well, and especially because the beach itself, like, the only thing that they talk about is that, like, it feels secretive, right? Like, that's the only thing that is really the thing. Right. It's got really clear waters, so. So does the other beach that you're staying on. Like, we see it in the camera, right? And, like, And. And it's the same waters, but, like, you're gonna. You're gonna swim to this protected area because people can't see you on the beach. Like, you don't even know what's on there. Like, Like, I mean, they kind of got lucky, to be honest with you. Like, I would be wondering if this is, like, well, I'm weird, so I'd be wondering if this is Lost World. Like, I'm gonna find some, like, dinosaur or thing that's going to eat me again.

22:43
Sam
Guys, I'm always worried about being murdered, but I.

22:46
Case
Or, no, it makes sense, Sam. When they're first in the. The marijuana fields, I kept thinking, like, it's like a velociraptor gonna pop up at some point. And, like, I know that was completely irrational thought, but I still, like, was thinking, well.

22:57
Will
Well, straight up, the first time I encountered a. If I was. If the first time I encountered a sleeping man with an AK47, I'm like, okay, I should not be here.

23:06
Sam
Yeah, exactly. I was like, I would have. Like, I was actually thinking to myself, I was like, why are they running inland? Like, I would be running back to the beach. Like, I'd be like, nope, nope. Get off. Get off this island. You're gonna die. Like, like this. There are people here and they don't want you here at all. And then, like, the voiceover is Richard being like, and I know we should have gone back, but I didn't care. And I was like, oh, you're such an asshole.

23:31
Will
Yeah. These are characters that don't. That. That little voice, that little voice of survival that's in their head, they don't listen to that. It's a lot like, I don't know if you guys remember a few years ago, there was that Christian missionary who was trying to go to this remote island.

23:45
Sam
Oh, yeah, I totally thought of that dude.

23:48
Will
And. And the first time he goes, they, like, threw spears at him. And. And then the second time he goes, they take his new. And then the third time, they just Kill him. And it's like, why, why do you have to keep pushing it?

24:02
Case
Like, take the goddamn hint.

24:04
Sam
Accept it.

24:05
Will
Yeah, exactly. And then what I find very interesting because. And not to write too much, just because I know what the geography of that beach looks like in real life. It's not what it's presented in the movie. It's not closed off at all. It's like that's cg, that CGI that they move the mounds together. The actual beach itself you can barely clearly see out for quite, for quite a while. Quite a while. But then when you get to this sort of like. And this is like, I guess the hippie version of like, get off my lawn. Like, I know a lot of like, my dad is in his old age has become one of these like off the grid types and he has like backups to everything. And this is like the same thing but on the different side.

24:48
Will
So you, when they show up at this like self sustaining commune, it's not too dissimilar. Like the set design is like not too dissimilar to like other resorts you might find in the area. To be honest.

25:03
Sam
It's true. I was actually thinking that like, and it almost kind of looked exactly like just a large version of the villa that he had stayed at on the other beach. And I was like, and there's food there. You don't even. To hunt for it. Why did you go to this island?

25:18
Case
Yeah, I kept wondering like, what's the point? Because the commune that they're at seems to have at least the basic creature comfort sort of. But how did they get there? Like they, the. Everything is well lit at night and like you could argue like, oh, it's just movie magic and it's supposed to be candles, but there's like points where they play electronic music and like we know that they're like getting batteries for Game Boys. And apparently in the book that's like a much bigger plot point that they're like addicted to Game Boy, which is like, okay, so again, why are you here?

25:47
Case
Like why did you feel the need to go away from everyone aside from just not wanting to pay for shit, which is then like again, this movie is so full of white people of just like, well, but like, you can't tell us not to go to this island. We're white people. We can go wherever we want and we should be allowed to have all the creature comforts wherever we go kind of thing. Which is, again, it's really cynical without being self aware. Like, there's not enough moment where we understand that the characters who are doing this, like all the commune people, but especially our main three, are just as bad as all the tourists who go and, like, just are focused on having a good time, getting massages, getting, like, all the. All the decadent scenes that we.

26:29
Case
We get when they're, like, traveling a little bit. Like, that's still them. Like, they're just like, the more cynical ones.

26:35
Will
Yeah. And they're not aware of it. That's. That's the thing. They think they're different, but they're not. And they're not aware that they're not different. Which is the height of white people.

26:43
Case
Yeah, exactly.

26:45
Sam
And I will argue that it makes them worse than those other people.

26:49
Will
Oh, my.

26:50
Sam
Because they're snobs. Like. Because. Because, like, they're like, there. I just. I hate so many people in this movie.

26:59
Will
Can I ask you something, Sam?

27:01
Sam
Yeah.

27:02
Will
Because. And this is against my other thoughts about how I was thinking of, how would I improve this if I was working on it? Are there any characters that you found you could. A way to make slightly redeemable? Because to me, the most likable character on the beach is Kiri, who they first meet. I like him a lot. And then in the book, there's a character that is not in the movie that's sort of like the lookout, I think is. I believe his name is Jed.

27:28
Case
Jed, yeah. Yeah. They kind of combine Jed and Kitty because, like, Kitty meets them the way that sort of Jed is sort of that lookout character.

27:36
Will
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I wanted to ask you, Sam, how if. If there's a character that you didn't hate number. Number one. And then if there's any that we could. We could fix.

27:47
Sam
So I think, yeah, you're right about Kiri. I think, like, for the most part, he. He plays a lot of the guide, but, you know, he kind of brings them into the society and he's pretty chill. And he also remains pretty honest with Richard. Like, even when Richard's starting to lose it, like, he tries to, like, pull him back and kind of like, you're going in the wrong direction. Like, you're not. So I do think that there are parts of him that are very human. And. And I think that he's one of the less terrible people on the beach. I still think that he's searching for something, but he seems like someone who's, like, searching for something and just kind of lost on their way, but not one of the masterminds. Kind of like, because this is kind of like without.

28:39
Sam
Even without a ideology. This is a cult, right? This is. This is. This is a structured cult. And. And Sal kind of lets people know what they do, and they just trust her. They just stay on this island and they just trust her to run this island as a community. And I think etoi, like, I think there are redeemable moments for him. He. He does say, like, you know, like, he's one of the few. He's the only voice that says it's wrong to just abandon this man after the shark attack just because you don't want to hear his suffering as he dies, to leave him alone in the woods.

29:14
Sam
And I think, like, and the fact that he, like, turns around even after everything that Richard has done to him personally by, like, stealing his girl, and he turns to Richard and he's like, really, Richard? Like, he still appeals to Richard's human side. He still tries to, like, look to his humanity and tries to say, like, you know, that this is wrong. And he also just wants his girlfriend to be happy, even though what. What her happiness is, whether it's fleeting or not, which we know it is. But he. He lets her go. He doesn't put up much of a fight. He does. He does confront Richard. He does say to Richard, like, you know, like, hey, no, shut up. Like, this was, you know, basically, this is wrong, but I want her to be happy. And he puts himself, like, second. He. He.

30:06
Sam
He kind of like, you know, he decides that it's fine. Like, he's just going to live in this community, he's going to stay in this community. And he never quite, like. So I think, like, there's a lot of stuff that's, like, redeemable in him. Is there anyone else to fix on the island? The problem is that we don't really know a lot about any of the other people on the island. Like, everyone else is just kind of set dressing. They're just there to kind of ask for tampons and other things when it's.

30:34
Case
Call for, like, which we'll talk about that.

30:38
Sam
You know, when it's a point for having fun. And then Sal, in her own right, is, you know, an unsavory character who is a terrible person. And she's probably neck and neck for worst person on the island. With Richard, I. I guess you just have to decide what's on going worse. The fact that he basically is responsible for killing innocent people because he's an idiot. Or if she's the worst because she's running a cult where she controls people. And also she coerces him into sex, which is sexual assault, to keep his secrets. I don't know. I don't know, guys.

31:19
Case
Yeah, I. I would say with. With Etion. I think he's almost like, almost a good person in this movie. Like, I think that his presentation of being like, kind of like a bully boyfriend to Francois is really more in Richard's head. And the fact that, like, in the book, Francois is a fixation of Richard, but not actually someone he has a sexual relationship with makes that make more sense. And, like, I think that him, like, her going over to Richard in, like, they're trying to present a scenario where we feel good about that as opposed to him kind of like, stealing her. Like Etienne's girlfriend.

31:55
Case
Because, like, most of the times, like, the only time where I felt really negative about Etienne was when was stuff related to Francois, like, where it's like, oh, he'll be mad if you wake or if he wakes up because I'm taking pictures of the sky. Like, like that bully information that were told about. But we never see, like, the way that he kind of like, grabs her every time that they, like, begin intercourse. There's that. And. And then, yeah, like, the sort of, like, presentation of that. But when she is not with Richard, he immediately turns over. Like he's mad. But that is logical that you would be mad about a thing like that. I do think that we missed a shot between them hooking up in on the beach.

32:33
Case
Like, like, the one place that they all go to, them hooking up on the beach. And then the immediate next scene, him knowing about it. And I feel like we should have gotten like, a shot of like, Sal seeing them or something like that to indicate that she was manipulating the whole situation. Because, like, he just knows and, like, everyone knows. But, like, there wasn't anything to sort of indicate that why everyone would know there. But like we said, like, the actual text of what Etienne does is all good stuff. Like, he immediately jumps on the adventure. He organizes the whole trip for them. He does all the negotiating and figures all that out. And he's like, kind of adorkable as he does. He's like bouncing up and down and, like. Like giddy about it all. He's very chill with.

33:14
Case
With, like, from, you know, relatively speaking, very chill with his girlfriend stolen.

33:19
Will
Like, I mean, probably the chillest example of that I've seen in a movie recently. Usually there's tons of like, Feelings, Right? Yeah, he's. He's just kind of like, whatever, probably because. And this is like a secret motivation, but I've watched some documentaries on cults and like free love is pretty common for cults. So he's. I have.

33:39
Sam
Yeah.

33:40
Will
I wonder if he's just like, oh, there's like a lot of other women that are probably down.

33:45
Case
Yeah, well, okay, so that's the thing I wanted to talk about because this is a cult or rather like a full on commune that should have way more orgies. Like, like there's no orgy in this entire thing. And it's like, oh, well, we have private relationships that we hook up with. And I'm like, this doesn't feel like that type of commune. This feels like they're all fucking on the beach kind of commune.

34:04
Sam
Yeah. Like, and they're all in one space all the time. So if you're just hooking up with your one person, everyone's watching you anyway. So why isn't this an orgy?

34:13
Case
Basically? Yeah.

34:15
Will
I know there's an NC17 version of this movie that's probably amazing that exists.

34:21
Case
I mean, I think that we might build to that in another pass.

34:25
Will
Right. That it exists in a screenwriter's drawer somewhere or like on fanfic slash Reddit slash fanfic. But there's probably a sexy beach out there.

34:37
Case
Yeah. And I feel like this is sort of the limitations of how you want to approach it. Like, I feel like it's just, it's someone like the Danny Boyle of it all is just a little too uptight, British or Scottish, but like just not in it, you know, like not being open to the getting into the whole like they're all fucking on the beach and eventually they get jealous because jealousy gets in there regardless. But like it doesn't. You don't need to have like, oh, it's my boyfriend. Like, oh, like, oh, we're a monogamous couple. Like, that's not what this group would be.

35:08
Sam
I mean, honestly, I thought they were going to have a threesome. Like I thought.

35:11
Case
I know, I. Yeah, that's a real. My immediate note was this is going to be a power movie.

35:17
Sam
I thought. Yeah. I was like, oh, polyamorous. Right. Like they're going to. The three of them are going to form a power couple. A power throuple. I'm sorry, you're right, Case. A power throuple. And they are going to overcome the issues on the beach.

35:35
Case
Or break up in a weird way. I mean, like, we. We have perfect grounds for this in terms of, like, the. The parallels between Francois, Richard and Etienne with Bugs, Daffy and Sal, who. Side note, Sal is short for Sylvester because they're all named after Looney Tunes characters. Figured I should say that part there. Like, that relationship, like, is a direct parallel. It's the. The here's the three who founded it, here's the three who destroyed it kind of situation. And like, Richard maps to Daffy really well. They're the ones that go crazy and go off on their own. Like, the idea that the three, like the relationship of the. Of the three founders and the reason why Daffy goes off is that eventually this, like, group. Group splintered because of jealousy and so forth.

36:15
Case
And like, the weird pressures should have been a parallel that is then conveyed onto our, like, our protagonist trio, who. That relationship then having those same reflection points are like, oh, I see why it fractured and so forth. And why things would go awry because it's. It is rotten from the core because the same human situation is reflected in each of these groups. And like, Jed is also kind of crazy in his own way. And like, there should be. Kid could have kind of a similar kind of vibe of like, well, conveying that people, no matter how open and like, all about free love you are, eventually you're going to want to be possessive of something. But this group is always possessive, and it's always that way this whole time.

36:58
Case
And it doesn't feel like they ever have any ideals or values that should promote, like, what is this, utopia? There's nothing good about it. Like, it's just a nice place.

37:08
Sam
Yeah, it's a lovely place. And they spend most of their time working. And even at some point. At some point, like, one of the. It's raining really hard during the rain scene. Well, when he goes out and. And. But. But one of the guys is complaining, he's like, oh, when it rains like this, the problem is you go out there and you can't really see the fish, and then we can starve for days.

37:28
Will
And.

37:29
Sam
And I was like, that's not a vacation. Like, y' all just living here and suffering here. Like, this is not. This is not fun. And I kept thinking to myself, like, wait, but, like, how long are you supposed to stay on this island? Because it feels like once you're here, you can't live. Like, this is the Hotel California you check in. But, like, this is your life now. Because even when that guy wanted to go back because his fucking tooth hurt, they wouldn't let him leave the island. So, like, is this a vacation? This is not a vacation. This is a prison.

37:58
Case
No, it's. It is a full on cult life, you're stuck here kind of situation.

38:02
Will
Yeah. Which is the dark side of any kind of perfect utopian is that there is some kind of, like, dark, sinister undercurrent in that you. You're either you're suddenly a captive to what you thought you were free was freeing you, or you're a. You're exiled. Like, even amongst groups, like, all this, like, petty high school. All this, like, petty high school social hierarchy stuff still plays in where, like, the groups start to form and there's exiles from. From the main group. Like, when Richard does his whole, like, Apocalypse now trip, which I thought was. Which I thought was hilarious. It was. It was like the equivalent. Because he's only out there. He's only out there watching the Americans, getting the surfer dudes, getting ready to come over for a couple of weeks. And only takes a couple weeks.

38:53
Case
He never has to shave.

38:55
Will
Yeah.

38:57
Case
And Christos is still alive, who is very quickly dying. Like the timeline at the end of this movie. I'm like, wait, what is going on? Because shouldn't this be like, is this weeks? Is this days? Is it like, did he go crazy in 24 hours?

39:11
Sam
That's what it feels like. Maybe 48. Like, we'll give him 48 hours. But, like, it really felt like that. Like, I was like, wait, that guy's still alive? And like, it took them that long to figure out how to get across the water. And like, also, they have a boat. Why wouldn't you just get on the boat? Okay, look, guys, this is gonna make me sound really bad because I don't like anyone on this, but if you're already a terrible person, which all of these people are. Sal is a terrible person. Richard is a terrible person. You have a boat. You went to the other island. Why don't you just get on your boat and beat the crap out of these kids, take the map from them and leave? Like, I don't understand why you're waiting on a hill for them to come.

39:49
Sam
Like, why aren't you taking care of it? Also, why aren't you just letting the farm. Like, why put him on the hill? Why not just let the farmers take care of them? You know that the farmers are going to do something, so just let them take care of it. Like, I'm sorry, I'm. I don't know. I'm like, if you're going to Be a person. You're going to be a criminal. Then. Then commit to it.

40:09
Will
Okay, Right. It's kind of like.

40:10
Case
Or alternatively for a pound. Well, so they have a secret way in that isn't like cross the beach and walk through the wheat field. Like, we see that when they do, like their rice run, that there's like the little grotto that they pull into and they like, raise up stuff and presumably, like, they can safely come and go without it being a huge deal. At least enough. Just bring them. Just bring them. Okay. Like, all right, so here's the deal. You can come, you can't leave, but you can come and everything will be fine. And we're going to destroy that map.

40:38
Will
Or. Or. Yeah, because these first three people were okay. Like, we're okay with like, Francois and Richard and these first three new people. Why are these other three. Why is this next three the problem?

40:54
Case
Yeah, especially because they just lost two people. So, like, I mean, this is a longer term problem, but, like, you want to have like some genetic diversity.

41:03
Sam
That's fair. And also, no one. It didn't feel like the farmers were counting people. They were just kind of like, you stay on our side, I'll stay. We'll stay on our side. Like, just, you know, keep your mouth shut. Like, it wasn't like a. Like, okay, you've got 25 people today and now you've added three more. We have a problem with this. Like, there wasn't an immediate problem when you added more people to it. So why.

41:30
Will
Yeah, they're not doing. Yeah, is. Is why they're not exactly doing. Yeah, they're. They're not. They're not doing headcounts. So you could probably just slip a few more into the deck. Any. Anyway, it's.

41:44
Sam
I mean, it probably has more to do with Sal's issues with control. And. And you could argue that maybe she let them stay because they were so attractive and she was already attracted to Richard's character. Character. Because it is very clear when she chooses him to go into town with her that she has alternative motives because her boyfriend already is suspicious and basically like threatens Richard. And. And it's kind of clear that no one else wants to go with her. So this may not have been the first time she's ever done this to someone. Maybe this is something she does to most people in the cult, which would be a very cult leader thing to do.

42:30
Will
Almost certainly. It's like, yes, rice run. Rice run. And then a nice sex session.

42:35
Sam
Right. And because now you also have A secret over someone. Right. Like a threatening thing behind them that they can't do when you can expose them for the thing that you two did somewhere else. It's. It's about control. So maybe giving the benefit of the doubt not explained in text at all to the people who are listening who have not seen this movie, maybe it's more about Sal wanting to not have people that she didn't invite because. Yeah. And these. These three were hot, so they could stay.

43:09
Will
I agree. I agree with your analysis completely, Sam. Especially because this is a movie that is, like, let us get the hottest movie star at the time, and we have a lot of reasons to keep him shirtless. And we can build on that car. We can build on what we started in the car scene in Titanic, and we can. Now we have just a mosquito net hotel. Yeah, but that is. You're right. That is very classic. Like, you know, 2022. All we. There's lots of discussions about, like. Like, power imbalances and, like, manipulative behavior and the things that manipulative, controlling people do in order to silence dissent and what have you to continue to do their manipulative things. But Sal exhibits all those behaviors and got away with it.

43:55
Sam
Well, and also at this time. So when she invites him. Now we're examining this movie as a cult, which is fine. But when she invites him to go on the rice run with her, this is the time where, for right now, Richard is at height of popularity within the cult. He is vastly rising as a star. He's got his shark story that even though it's bullshit, everyone loves hearing, like, people are basically all about Richard. And it's kind of like, wow, he's amazing. Look how much fish he's brought back. Oh, my God. He's such a great guy, that Richard. What a great addition. And she's just like, yeah, Richard's gonna come with me. And so it's like, basically like, taking him down a peg. Definitely making sure to keep the power balance in check. So Sal stays on top. She is the leader.

44:54
Sam
No one can challenge her on that.

44:56
Case
Right. Because again, Richard is Daffy Part two in the scenario.

45:00
Sam
Right.

45:01
Will
Mm.

45:03
Case
So there was a plot thread that was taken from the book completely because we mentioned that this character is gone, which is Jed. So Jed is this lookout character who is supposedly the last person to arrive on the island before the trio arrives. And like I said, he's sort of fused with Kitty. We see that Kitty is the one who, like, starts the tattoo ritual, which, mind you, let's remind Everyone, not everyone showed up at the same time. Like, it's not it. The first three came and started this community and started. People started coming in that they invited. And like Kitty in theory might have been invited by them just as much as everyone else, but in the book, Jed was not. Jed actually stumbled onto it and is the catalyst for this all breaking down.

45:43
Case
Before we see anything that apparently Daffy didn't want everything to be interfered with. He didn't want this like wonderful utopia to be sullied by a person that they didn't bring in. And that's why he's like starts this sort of scheme of going out and seeding the news about like, oh, hey, there's this island and isn't it cool? Wouldn't you believe it? It's in Thailand. And somehow the beaches are nice and there might be drugs somewhere, but there's no beer. But like, who really needs beer? Like, like whatever utopia that Daffy is like spreading the rumors of and like giving maps out to. To. To just destroy everything. It's started by Jed off screen and having that kind of element there where there is this sort of elitist component, the.

46:27
Case
This, you know, like this tribal in group element that was there beforehand is kind of essential to like how they react to the. The new three. Like they are very isolationist. They don't want people to come and join them. They have found their utopia. And now like all white people, once they have stolen something, because again, it is a national park that they're at, they're going to fight to keep it that way from anyone who would like, anyone who would dare come and ask to share in the thing that was already not theirs to begin with.

47:05
Will
And what's crazy to me, and this is a very brief aside, but I think it's worth mentioning after this point is that a lot of what happens in this movie to this perfect utopia happened to the actual beach in real life too. There's like huge reports about the amount of environmental devastation that the production of this movie did to this beach in real life and how long it took to recover and it really was. And then when. And because I mentioned briefly before we started recording that I've traveled in Thailand and been to this beach and there. There I was not. We weren't. My wife and I were not alone on that beach to the point where a few years ago is actually shut down from anyone going to it so that it could actually recover from what's.

47:51
Will
What had happened to it over all these years. So the movie and I Think the movie was a part of this as well. The movie did to the utopia what the three do to the community in the. In the movie. It's a strange real world parallel.

48:06
Case
Yeah. So I've got the article in front of me. The. The studio initially set aside a budget to, quote, unquote, repair anything that they were doing because they were taking out trees and whatnot to make it look more like a pristine beach that had, you know, taken out shrubs, taking out anything that would look not photogenic, and that they had set aside money to quote, unquote, quote, restore it, but then immediately received by contra conservationists being like, you didn't do a good job. And it's. And it was in litigation until a tsunami actually caused even more damage in 2004. Yeah. But the movie also had this, like, tipping point of being. Being one of the many commercial factors to indicate, like, oh, look at this pretty beach. And. And yes, you're right.

48:45
Case
In 2021, they had totally shut it down because the coral reefs were being destroyed around it and, like, all the vegetation in the area was being destroyed.

48:53
Will
Yeah. And I've. And that beach did not need any fixing. It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen on this. On this planet. It did not need any fixing. Yeah.

49:01
Case
Again, white people bullshit.

49:03
Will
Exactly. Exactly. On a. On a. On a. In a community that has just distilled it down to its pure essence. And a lot of it gets into the ending as well, which I also. The last, like, third that I have a lot to. That I take a lot of issues with. And we actually talked about this when you did my show recently, Kass's third act problems. And I think this movie has a lot of them.

49:29
Case
Yeah. So let's talk about the third act for a moment, because I think that. So, for one, it deviates from the book in some substantial ways, and I think it loses out on an opportunity that this movie had to be a type of story that is difficult to do. So the book, they all. The community kind of fractures a lot more and becomes sort of like warring factions, indicating the splintering of everything that's going on with it all. Whereas in the. In the movie, they do nothing like, you know, the farmers come and they, like, all are like, oh, we've all been in this haze of, you know, this utopia for so long. Doesn't really have a plot there.

50:09
Case
But watching this movie, I kept thinking, like, man, this would have been like, a great opportunity to do Lord of the Flies, but as a film and the reason why it's difficult to do that in conviction as Lord of the Flies is that you get lost in the book about how terrifying these children have become and whatnot. And this could be a more cynical, modern take on where it's like, people look like, isolating themselves, devolving into the sort of weird. I. I'm trying to avoid the word, like, tribal or anything that, like, because it's not a. It's not a racial thing. It's not like, just, like, becoming shitty, savage people. And I don't want this to be presented as being like, oh, but. But European society kind of stuff. Like, that's not. That's not there. In fact, these are the.

50:55
Case
These are the shitty people who become that.

50:57
Will
Right?

50:57
Case
Like, like, you go.

50:58
Will
You regress to your, like, base, like, ID instincts.

51:03
Case
Yeah. And we could have dealt with those kind of things, but instead this movie has. I can't even tell, like, what they're really trying to say is the third act.

51:12
Sam
I think. I think the thing is that they don't. They. They sanitize some things, right? Because I think, like, I think that there is a. A message in there somewhere. But the problem is by not having any responsibility for any of the things that have happened fall on Richard and trying to keep him as someone who's just, like, lived through this and walked away from it, but without really true reflection within the script. Again, I don't know what happened in the book. You can't really indict any of the other characters either, because you don't indict him for his crimes. And, like, the truth is, like, you know, this is. This could actually be a really good inspection of what it's like to feel so entitled and so privileged and so part of a. A cult kind of space, right.

52:08
Sam
And watch it fall apart and watch people wake up and be deprogrammed from that. But it doesn't go there. It doesn't. It. It never quite gets there. Right? So the final moments where you have, you know, the. The farmers give over this gun and she. Everyone can see how far she'll go to protect the secret. And everyone's like, well, like, honestly, like, they're already so deep in this cult, they've already left a man out in the jungle to die. And anyone who's watched or listened to far too many cult podcasts, which I have indeed done, you'll know that the first couple of murders, that only really makes two or three people leave. People don't walk away because of that, because they think that it is as precious as the cult leader thinks it is precious.

53:07
Sam
And Richard is not important enough at the time that's scene happens for the entire cult to fall apart. He's not. They're already talking about him badly. They already think that he is a detriment to their society. And in fact, more of them would side with her. I think. What would. I think, Casey, you're actually right. What would have been more interesting and what actually needed to happen was a pure breakdown of personalities. You'd have to see. Actually, what would be really interesting is the war of personalities. Because Richard definitely has it in him to be a cult leader. Because just like Sal, he also has, like, a very narcissistic outlook on life. And he could totally fraction that. And they could be living on another part of the beach, which would cause issues to. For the farmers.

54:05
Sam
Because now you've got two houses springing up. And this is where the real tension comes up. Because you've got these crazy people now. They're developing on the island, like, not just their one, like, little happy community, but now they're spreading out. And now you've got the farmers being like, oh, this is bad for business. Like, this isn't good. And like, honestly, the four didn't have to die. You can bring the four on and have Richard be like, nah, they're cool. Pool, like, and go and get them. And everyone being like, half of the grouping be like, well, but Sal, you didn't have a problem with Richard. Like, you never problem with them. Like, I'm sure they're fine. And have it splintered. Have power be splintered. Because, like, honestly, at this point, there's no teeth to this ending. People just walk away from this.

54:50
Sam
And they basically walk away what is seemingly unscathed. Because even though Richard says in his voiceover that he can't get away from the things that he's seen, he looks fine. He's in a cafe. And when a picture comes up in an email, he smiles at what once was, like, not the trauma of what happened. And that is the part that really messed me up about this movie and why I hate it. Because I really felt like there's not. There's no consequences. There's no actual, like, yes, people die, but they're basically red shirts.

55:27
Case
Yeah, actually, so that's. That is the thing, the. That they talk about how they get a lot of scars from this whole thing and they don't really. Like, if this was a cult that was really going down that cult path and had like, a Lot of people die or like a lot of really up happen because it's like this cult, them all kind of coming out of their haze and being like, holy, what were we all a part of? Would have meant a lot more. But as it is, one person got eaten by a shark, which is like, okay, yeah, all right. Yeah. One person went crazy and went off to the mainland and committed suicide. Okay, yeah. And one person got bitten by a shark and was basically dead like they couldn't save him. And like there was that.

56:07
Case
I mean, I guess you could argue, like, all right, the one guy whose tooth they had to pull maybe, but. But there isn't really a whole lot of things that the cult does. The worst they do is that they don't provide medical treatment for someone who is dying like, but he is dying. Like. Like there's no point where they have to someone before they spread the word. There's no point where they have to like do anything really up there. You know, there's no point where someone's pregnant and they can't deal with it and so they like perform the most up abortion or something like that. Like, there's no thing that the cult does that is inherently by itself that bad. From the perspective of the people within the cult.

56:42
Case
That said again, national park, like they have broken in and destroyed a natural resource and are just fucked up white people who like to steal shit. But that's, that's like, they don't see that because they're the fucked up white people who like to steal shit.

56:59
Will
And for no real effective reason because you're not doing anything terribly different that you couldn't be doing on the mainland. Like, it's.

57:09
Case
Again, the beach directly across from where they're at is a really nice beach that they. They're all hanging out at. And it's really nice.

57:15
Sam
Seemingly empty because literally there's no one there. And like when they're looking through binoculars to see the. The other like the surfers, like look at the map. Like they're standing there with their backpacks with their friends, like just staring across the sea. There's nothing there. In fact, they chose that beach because it was the only beach which they could take and like swim across from without someone noticing for them not to get in trouble. So you could just build on that beach, just camp there.

57:46
Will
Yeah, you could have your like, spiritual like finding yourself on that beach. And I agree absolutely with the way the movie decides to end. It was like, oh man, that was crazy. And yeah, the break, the action that causes the break is not too dissimilar to tons of other stuff that you see happen on camera. The way the break happens in the book I find a lot more interesting and it would have been a much more, I think, thrilling ending because effectively in the book, Richard, Francois, Chidi and Jeb are the five that escape. And it's kind of. And it's like a literal escape. Like the way it's described as, you know how they're having that kind of like dance party when. Before the, before the farmers come.

58:42
Will
In effect what happens is in the book is that they spike the food for the party with thc. So the entire cult starts like loot tripping out when the farmers show up with the dead bodies of the. For the surfers that they had just killed. And it becomes this crate and it becomes this like crazy like mind altered, like rush to. Rush to escape the island. At which point Richard is almost killed, but then is saved at the very last minute. And they make this. And they make this escape, just the five of them. And I thought that would be so much more interesting to see. And then you find out later that like after everyone goes their separate ways, what happens to certain people.

59:34
Will
And the craziest thing that does not get covered and I thought would be amazing to see is there's a character in the book named Cassie who's a girlfriend of someone on the island. You find out that she gets arrested in Malaysia for smuggling in heroin and is going to be the first westerner sentenced to the death penalty in that. In Malaysia in like, of substantial length of time.

59:56
Case
Yeah, it says six years.

59:57
Will
Yeah, six years. On the, on the synopsis. So I would have, I think an ending. And I don't know if this is budgetary or if it's just too involved to be able to do, but I think the idea of a thrilling drug fueled escape through the jungle back to the mainland would be infinitely more entertaining than Leonardo DiCaprio tied to a tree. And until this went and pulls the trigger on a blank, on a gun that's. That's empty.

01:00:27
Case
Yeah. Could I to emphasize a word that you said, yes, drug fueled. Because what the fuck do they think weed does, right?

01:00:39
Sam
Honestly though, like, it doesn't even feel like. I mean it doesn't really feel very often like these people are getting high anyway. I mean like, I guess it's implied, but they seem fairly sober. The entire, like, they actually seem like more like they're doing like a clean living kind of thing. Like that they don't do anything except for work on this island. Like, I. There. There's never a moment where they're all like meditating or like having sex with each other or. I mean, there's volleyball again. You can do this at Club Med. Like, I don't understand.

01:01:13
Case
It comes off like they're all on coke. Like, that's the thing. It feels like the wrong drug for like what they're doing.

01:01:20
Will
Yeah, yeah. This should be like pcp. Like, like that's the kind that's when you start digging into a corpse with your hands. That's. That's PCP behavior. Most, most certainly. And I agree with you, Sam. Yeah, we're essentially, we're. We're catching our own fish. We're farming. We're essentially like doing some kind of pescatarian work release program here on the island. Like, it's all very. It is, it's. It's all very like 2000s yoga mom before that was a thick.

01:01:52
Sam
Yeah. And, and Right. Their main complaints about Richard as he is been assigned this mission, basically. Which, by the way, would make sense because if you have Kitty, like being basically your lookout, you would have to replace a lookout. Right. Like, that was the job of the last person who came on the island. So why wouldn't that be Richard? Anyway? Not the point. And they're like complaining because he hasn't gone fishing or done any of the farming or like, they're literally complaining about him not doing chores, not the fact that he's losing his mind and like antagonizing the farmers by touching their shit. Which actually would be my thing. I'd be like, why are you fucking with them? Like, you know, they have guns and we don't. Like, why are you messing with the farmers? Like, guys, he's going to get us killed.

01:02:37
Sam
Like, this guy is losing it and he's going to get us killed. Like, that would be my concern. But no, that's not what is. They're upset that he's not doing like, his part of the work. Like, I don't know. It's just like, so silly.

01:02:51
Will
It just becomes the office at that point. It's like, oh, you're really late on getting me those spreadsheets, Bill. And I think that also plays into my thoughts, my feelings on the character development of Richard, which I don't blame the actor for, because I genuinely think Leonardo DiCaprio is a fantastic actor. I just think he's not given a ton to work with and there's no clear motivation. Like, we don't really know like why he's traveling. Like, he clearly has parents that are worried about him. So he's clearly coming from. Coming from what you said, Sam, just to be able to travel in the first place. Probably very comfortable, privileged place like his. Any problems he has are probably very mundane and suburban. If. Yeah, I would hypothesize.

01:03:38
Will
And my only note, if I was like gonna give a Note on like DiCaprio's performance and like, I love. I think he gets very intense. But when DiCaprio shouts and he does that sort of like, like if either of you have seen Romeo and Juliet when rape. When he's talking about Mercutio and he's doing the shouting part of the, of that speech, he. I think he does it a bit too much. And he does it in certain contexts. Like when they play a practical joke on him that there's a shark when they're swimming over.

01:04:08
Case
Yeah. He's like freaking out at them. And then just after that, when they're escaping from the farmers and he starts shouting, it's like, oh, that's an asshole plant. We're not going to fucking jump. Like, he's such. He go like he has like a 0 to 60 trigger. That is so fucking not merited in any of the situations.

01:04:25
Will
Yes, I agree. So I would just didn't. I wish Danny had been like, Leo, just turn it down just a bit. Just. Just a touch.

01:04:36
Case
Yeah. Well, okay, so this is a good pivot point to a thing that I wanted to talk about, which is the Danny Boyle of it all in that it is. Well, so Leonardo DiCaprio was a recast. It was originally going to be Ewan McGregor. And I, I wonder thinking back on Trainspotting, if that those kind of points were where Rent, like where McGregor's character had those kind of blow ups would have felt different there. And I. Because like, I agree, I think Leo is generally speaking a good actor and like this is early in his career, but he's like, he's not like a rookie by any stretch of the imagination and you know, is perfectly fine for the majority of the things going on in this movie.

01:05:16
Case
I wonder if specifically there are lines that were written with Ewan McGregor in mind and then the character is supposed to be British and that's supposed to sort of justify some of like the backpacking parts because that feels like that's apparently more of, like, a cultural thing in Great Britain to take, like, that gap year and, like, go off and.

01:05:35
Will
Yeah, that's something around Asia, that's something I'm very jealous of the Brits is that they're able to just like, spend a weekend in, like, a beautiful. Like, they could go to Prague for the weekend. Whereas a weekend getaway for most Americans is like, I live in Maryland. I'm gonna go to Pennsylvania.

01:05:51
Case
Right, well, but actually, I was gonna say part of that, though, is then, because you don't have beaches like that in your nation. Like. Like, they, like, they have to travel a lot more. Whereas, like, America is huge, and there's, like, massive geographic differences in the same country that you're on, you know, and then again to the fact that we don't have colonies. Well, that. But, but, I mean, he's like, 22. So, like, it' vacation day so much as, like, no, you just finished college. You have to start a job kind of thing. And this is his, like, little gap time there.

01:06:23
Sam
Right.

01:06:23
Case
I don't know if him being American makes it actually feel somehow more colonial than British, which is, like, a weird.

01:06:28
Sam
Thing to think about.

01:06:30
Case
Yeah. But it does feel like white bully going, just being like, I should be allowed to do whatever I want. And I guess both are the same, but it feels like there's more of a need at least if you're, like, living up in, like, the cold British Isles to, like, go someplace tropical as opposed to just Florida.

01:06:45
Sam
Sometimes. Sometimes you learn for the best, and then you take it the extra mile. Go America.

01:06:50
Case
Yeah, no, yeah, kind of.

01:06:53
Will
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because what is America but stolen land? If you really think.

01:06:58
Sam
Yeah. And listen, we just. We just want to live up to our papa and. And just make them proud All. All of the. The dominating colonial forces of Europe. Thank you so much for collectively making North America just what we are. Signed America. Thank you so much.

01:07:21
Case
Just remember, the pilgrims were kicked out of England because they were too crazy.

01:07:27
Will
Are you. Are you proud of me now, Daddy? I found this island. Hawaii. I just took it.

01:07:33
Sam
Yeah. Are you proud of me now? I'm going to Connell colonialize this island called Puerto Rico. I'm going to give people citizenship, but then I'm going to force abortions on half of their population and make them speak English, take away their flag and destroy their natural resources. We'll give it back to them in the 60s, though, don't worry.

01:07:53
Will
All very interesting elements that could have made this movie so much more, like, intricately layered than Just like somebody trying to find themselves.

01:08:03
Sam
Yeah.

01:08:04
Case
It's too Catcher in the Rye and it needs to be more Lords of the Fly or Lord of the Flies.

01:08:08
Will
Yeah. Like, if they went harder on the Lord of the Flies, I think it would have been much more interesting. Like. And again, and I'm slightly. I, as I said earlier, I'm.

01:08:20
Case
I'm part.

01:08:21
Will
I'm partial to certain parts of this movie for. Because of personal reasons. But it's just kind of. They take some by the numbers Hollywood BS and they could have. They. There was opportunities to make more creative choices or focus less on Richard, make it more ensemble. Yeah.

01:08:40
Case
So the other thing I wanted to bring up with the Danny Boyle part. Well, two things, actually. So, one, the choice to have Robert Carlisle be daffy. I think he does a really good job of being crazy. I don't think he does a good job of conveying essential exposition early in the movie that we need for later in the movie. And that is just, you know, because he's good as a crazy person. Like, he does a really good job with that. All I think that, I think, trying to convey why anyone fucking cares about this beach. Like, that scene I rewatched today and I was like, wait, what? Like, what is he trying to sell right now? And I don't understand why this crazy person complaining about parasites feels like he's, like, selling a really wonderful place for people to go to.

01:09:24
Sam
Yeah, I, I, again, it's not, I think also, like, he just kind of, like, breaks into his room. And Richard thinks that's kind of funny. And honestly, as someone who spent a lot of time in tropical places, mosquito netting is really important. Bug netting is really important. And I would be really fucking pissed at anyone who broke my screen. Be really mad. Like, and also, like, it's just very intrusive. And I know that Richard, we've already established that he's got this streak where he's looking for something off the beaten path. And he's very easily coaxed into doing things that he thinks is unwise. We get that from drinking the snake's blood earlier on in the movie. But it's just such an odd encounter. It's just such a weird. It's just such a weird encounter. Everything in this movie screams, why? What? Why?

01:10:24
Sam
Why would you listen to this insane man who comes off rather insane when you talk to him, who practically broke into your room? Why would you continue to go after you saw that he, quote unquote, committed suicide, even though that looks Like a freaking murder scene. Because there's blood everywhere. Everywhere. You know, why would you walk up to this guy, couple you barely know and ask them to go with you rather than just going by yourself, since you're traveling by yourself anyway? And it's just. Why would you make a map for some guys you just got high with? Like, there's so many whys. Like, Richard, like, he just. He's operating one brain cell, basically. And I. Have I mentioned that I hate him.

01:11:11
Will
Do you guys.

01:11:12
Sam
You guys know that Leonardo DiCaprio was nominated for a Razzie for this, right?

01:11:17
Will
Yes, I do. Yeah.

01:11:18
Case
I don't know if it's earned, but I will, but. Because I think most of the problems are, like, directorial choices to have, like, those big explosions of his because, like, you know, his. His, like, bouts of craziness. His voiceovers, those are all, like, fine. They're all.

01:11:31
Will
They're.

01:11:31
Case
They're like. They. They look visually interesting. I really dig when he, like, breaks into the camp and he's, like, messing around with it because he. He feels like a good. Good crazy person right there. Like, those are. Those are good moments there. It just explodes at random times.

01:11:44
Sam
And, I mean, the listeners shouldn't worry. John Travolta took that award away from him. So Battlefield Earth.

01:11:53
Will
Yeah. That was battle. Battlefield Earth, wasn't it?

01:11:57
Sam
Yeah.

01:11:58
Will
Yeah. I'm inclined to. Yeah. And just because I feel like. Because I'm inclined less to. To want to blame actors, because I know actors, you can only work with what they're given, and sometimes it's just impossible. You can throw everything at it, and you can only do so much. Another example I think of sometime is I think Denzel Washington has taken some average movies and scripts and made them much better because he's that good. And I feel like DiCaprio is just, like, working with scraps. Basically. This sort of, like, selfish guy with no clear motivation of what he's running from or what he's looking for.

01:12:41
Sam
Yeah. Richard doesn't have a journey, like, other. Like, he's there, but he doesn't have any growth, so it's very hard.

01:12:48
Will
Yeah.

01:12:49
Case
I wish I knew the order that they shot this movie in because I'm curious about some of that stuff, because things like him blowing up at Etienne could better justified if they shot a lot of stuff already. And we thought that, like, oh, we're building up to this relationship where, like, he's finally, like, blowing up in his face or something. But if, like, one. A lot of that's cut down like, there's so many montages in this movie in terms of like getting them from point A to point B or to sell why the beach is great, all like that. We don't actually have good character moments for anyone. So like the only spots that we really sit with are the spots where people are starting to crack.

01:13:23
Will
Yeah. And in a situation where the main things that you are able to do are work together or hang out in the same general room, there's opportunities to have like a scene where, okay, I'm just going to film you guys and I want you to improv a conversation where you could have those kind of character building moments and there just isn't. There just aren't any scenes like that.

01:13:47
Case
Yeah. And then I think that there's just kind of a lens looking at this that's like kind of dismissive of a lot of youth culture at this point. There's like the hatred of video games, but they don't really want to spend time looking at anything like that. There's this whole like, we hate the idea of young people going to bars that when that like when they go back to Thailand or they're in Thailand this whole time. But yeah, like when they go back to civilization and it's just like, look at all these terrible people. I hate it here so much. At no point is it like really gross. Like, like we, we. We've seen gross parties in our lives and there is nothing like that. There's no, there's not even vomiting. Like, it's just a bu. Who are like hanging out drinking.

01:14:27
Case
And it's like, look at this. Hell, look at this dystopia I've walked back into. I want to go back to my utopian beach where we, I don't know, like sit around and like theoretically do drugs, but at no point seem high and not drink, but not act like straight. You know, like it doesn't quite.

01:14:43
Sam
Vibe each other and definitely just form relationships that are stagnant. And also like, I, I don't understand. It's. It's a Club Med. It's Club Med for these privileged people who are stealing this land.

01:14:57
Will
It. It essentially is. Yeah.

01:15:00
Case
And these people living there, I. And we keep like circling back to the cult because it's just like so baffling. Like, I want to talk about makeup remover because that was called out multiple times about the rice run trip where it's like, can you get me makeup remover when he comes back? It's like, I've got A bunch of makeup remover. They keep talking about that. Why is the fucking makeup at your beach Cult.

01:15:22
Will
Right. I'm thinking if you're the kind of lady who wants to get away from it all, you're probably running away from, like, societal expectations of women to wear makeup. Right.

01:15:30
Sam
I mean, here's the thing. I'm going to support their want to wear makeup because makeup maybe is just for them. Although in hot sun, it is kind of annoying. But you know what I'm going to say, great. But here's the other thing. How often do they go to the mainland? And don't you have to also buy makeup?

01:15:49
Case
Yes, that's what I'm getting at it.

01:15:50
Sam
Like, like the tampons. Like, the request for tampons makes sense, right?

01:15:55
Case
Like, you can absolutely.

01:15:56
Sam
You can't stop that beat. Right? And it's. It's going to happen. But, like, in order for you to need or want makeup remover, you're going to have to also have makeup. And if only cell and one other person is going to. How do you even know that they're gonna bring back the right match for your coverage? Like, how do you know? Like, are you writing this down? Are you writing down what you want? Like, do you even know what lip colors are available? Are you just doing eyeliner? Like, this brings up more questions than the movie has time to answer for me.

01:16:34
Case
Exactly. Well, like, so, like Will was saying in terms of, like, this doesn't seem like the type. But more importantly, from a practical standpoint, you'd run out of makeup at some point or you'd have to, like, figure out, like, what, like, what is the practical application in. In this society when I doubt that they are constantly able to resupply on this all. Like, they're not talking about bulk ordering. Lots of, like, staples for everyone. Like, I. I will note that when it's like multiple people ask for tampons, I'm like, wait, just. Just plan to buy a lot of tampons. Like, you don't need to have, like, individual people's tampons. Like, buy. Buy in bulk. Like, get all. Get all the supplies you need for everyone.

01:17:11
Will
Yeah. They also don't address, like, how this all gets paid for.

01:17:16
Case
Yeah, Well, I guess with drugs.

01:17:18
Sam
Well, like, so there is a moment where Kitty has his. Like, he has money in his hands and he's handing it over to, like, he's holding it out when he's telling Richard what he wants. And I'm like, is everyone responsible for paying their own cash and won't your cash flow eventually run out because you're not doing anything and you're not going to an atm. Like, it's not like you're like going back town to make sure that you have more money on you so that you can get a newspaper so you can follow cricket. And also, how often are these rice runs that, like, you can just stay on top of the. Like, I would give up. Right. Like, if you're not actively, like getting this paper, I mean, I guess it's just a piece of home. I don't know, guys. There's so many questions.

01:18:12
Will
Well, yeah, because I would imagine cricket, like most sports is like a week to week thing at the soonest or maybe even if it's monthly, it's a lot to, to cover. And then again, like you're trying to get away from it all, but not completely.

01:18:30
Sam
Yeah, yeah. It's like, there's no, it's like total immersion, but not at all. Like certain things are allowed, but not at all. It's so. It's such a, it's such a weird concept.

01:18:42
Case
Again, they're weirdly possessive for being part of a commune.

01:18:48
Will
Yes.

01:18:49
Case
Like, they're very possessive of each other. They're possessive of having individual goods. Like they all, they're dismissive of each other for their nerd interests. Like, it's weirdly a toxic place. That is.

01:19:02
Sam
You were right when you said this is basically the office. This is the office. Like, this is the kind of place where they put their name on their fish. Like, like. Oh, like I put that away because I didn't finish it and it was in the fridge and someone definitely touched it.

01:19:18
Will
Yeah, it's, it's like we're all, hey, man. What? Whatever. But, but still, this is mine. Like, right?

01:19:25
Sam
Yeah, it's so weird. Also, I just want to say that this has nothing to do with the thing. At some point when Richard is getting all moony eyed over Francoise and TD says to him, it's not gonna happen. He's French. You're not. Do you even speak French? No. And then he says something about the roundness of his thumbs and how he plays video games and so he's not gonna get the woman. And there were like two things. I was like, this is the equivalent of putting glasses on a very attractive woman. Like, you could never. She's got glasses. And, and secondly, I have never walked up to someone and be like, wow, that's really round thumbs. You have there. You must play some video games.

01:20:13
Case
I think, because the book had, like, more of a thing about him being, like, obsessed with Game Boy. It wasn't so much that, like, the. The thumbs are just an indicator of the larger problem, which is that he's into video games, which would have been better conveyed if he was playing a video game instead of reading a book in that scene. But, yeah, he did.

01:20:31
Sam
He had not played a game until, like, he. Actually, you don't see him in the game until, like, much later.

01:20:36
Case
Until after that. Yeah.

01:20:37
Sam
So it makes no sense to the person watching because we haven't actually watched him play a game. Like, we've just watched him be, like, a person who's traveling and who's in.

01:20:48
Case
Good shape because he's hunting and fishing every day out in the sun and playing outdoor sports with him with his.

01:20:53
Sam
Shirt off and his abs.

01:20:56
Case
Why don't they buy sunscreen? Pardon me? Like, that's. That was the thing I wanted to get to Sunscreen.

01:21:01
Sam
No one.

01:21:02
Case
They should all be burned to a crisp.

01:21:04
Sam
No. No one asks for it. No one asks for, like, an extra hat of coverage. Like, hey, my. My hat is kind of wearing thin. I need a new hat.

01:21:14
Case
Yeah. I feel like all the things that they said, hey, can you buy? Are just, like, things that people heard when they were doing backpacking trips where actual people were like, hey, can I get this thing? Or that thing? And from this, like, misogynist lens of being like, women always want that makeup remover. Always want those tampons. Like, it feels like kind of a. Like a women be crazy kind of moment from the writer and might even go all the way back to Alex Garland, the novelist.

01:21:38
Sam
Well, women do be crazy. I don't mean that at all.

01:21:43
Will
And women do. They do be shopping.

01:21:47
Sam
They do be shopping. And they also. We definitely do need sanitary napkins and tampons. So that is a fact.

01:21:55
Case
The makeup, again, that makes sense. But buy in bulk for everyone. It's a commune. Why buy an individual bottle of vodka for one person. Get. Get booze for everyone Again, order it.

01:22:10
Sam
From Case.

01:22:13
Case
In the Real World. But, like, I mean, I realize it's not like they can just go to Costco, but, like, that feels like the kind of shopping they should be doing for this commune. If you're gonna live off the grid, but, like, make runs in probably weekly.

01:22:27
Sam
How fast you're like. I mean, like, two bags of rice. Like, I don't know how big the bags of rice are, you know, because they. We don't really see them. But, like, that's gonna go really quickly with that many people, especially when you have time, when, like, you can't fish and, like, rice might be the only thing that you have. I mean, yes, you have, like, farm stuff, but, like, it seems like rice would be like, a staple of their diet. And, you know, I don't know. I don't. I don't want to get too much into the maths of, like, what is happening. This. Like, we're like, guys, how. How do we properly stock this cult?

01:23:05
Case
Yeah, I, like, I have a note here, I'll mention this here, but it is. It's part of my pitch, which is that I think that the travel to and from the mainland should be dangerous. Like, we don't see any sort of threat for them, but there should be, like, some kind of authority, be it like a coast guard or a cop or something that's like, in the water and sees them traveling to what is a reserved park that they're not allowed to be at, should be part of the threat there. And, like, that should indicate that the runs can only happen so many times because it is dangerous every time they do one. Like, I. I feel like that should be a part of the, like, the unstated thing is that they're not allowed to be there.

01:23:39
Case
It's not just that the farmers are going to be like, we'll kick you off. It's like, no, if anyone actually finds out, they're get. They're going to jail.

01:23:46
Sam
Yeah, well, they're even in the scene where they're heading back and you see them, like, loading in the bags that they do have onto the boat. There are other boats in the water. And I know that this is possibly like a production issue, maybe, like, where they had their boat. There were actual people there and you can't see them, so you don't need releases. But I was like, if I were sit. Like, if I were rowing to an illegal island, like, I wouldn't be doing it when there were other boats in the water. Because then those fishermen, even if they're just like. Like regular fishermen, they are witnesses.

01:24:21
Sam
And if there's some sort of reward or fine, because sometimes with some of these islands, if there's a fine to the people that go to them, there's also a reward for people who will report those people. Why wouldn't they report you? Right, yeah, they totally would. So, like, I. There's just a lot, like, I don't know. And it was a beautiful shot, so I get it. But also, no, it Comes back to.

01:24:49
Will
Our recurring theme for the whole movie of why. There's so many whys and questions of why did we do what we did?

01:24:58
Case
Yeah. Now, I don't want this just to be a bitch sesh because there are some nice things about it. We talked about how it is beautifully shot. We talked about how the locations are gorgeous to look at. I think those are all valid points there. I think I. I rather enjoy when Daffy makes his reappearance at the end of the movie as, like, this weird hallucination that's like, driving this, like, going insane. Richard. I wish there was a better reason for it. I. I feel like, hey, if they were doing real drugs or maybe like, all food poison, because I know that's a plot that happens throughout. Like, you know, lots of shrooms could have been a big part of this whole thing. Like, a lot of these, like, whys would be answered if it was just like, oh, there's so many more drugs.

01:25:36
Case
Like, we're just not seeing it because this is weirdly sanitized. Like, there's like one shot of a nipple. There's like some like, shark bite stuff and someone gets strangled. But, like, we don't, you know, Like, I guess there's also the gunshot scenes, but, like, it's not a really gross movie, per se, but, like, there are. There's a lot of, like, good moments in there. And like, it's. It's nice to see stuff in Thailand. It's annoying that it's very othered. Like, all the people are very, like, feel exotic and weird and incomprehensible and, like, subservient. But, like, I, I don't mind the idea that, like, hey, this is this beautiful area and look how terrible white people are. Are, you know, making of it like that they're just turning it into like, this Taurus trap kind of thing.

01:26:15
Case
And I, I like the decision to have a lens that focuses on that, even if I'm annoyed that they don't spend more time with it. Like, those are still good, like, impulses.

01:26:25
Will
Yeah. As far as positives, like, I, I do agree with you. Like, I like it is beautifully shot. I love the scenery that is showcased. Like, it's as far as, like, from a directorial standpoint, I really like it. It's just I get into the issues that I get into are like, just probably the script and some. That's, I think, where the cores of the issues come from are script choices and story choices.

01:26:58
Sam
Yeah, I, I agree with you. I think, I think in general, too I think it's totally okay to start with your protagonist not being remarkably likable, especially if you're telling a story about how. How sometimes as tourists we other communities. And I think that's fine and that's. That's a definitely good story to tell. Right. Like, if you're coming from a place of privilege and you're doing that's fine. But the main issue for me is that at the end there are no consequences for any of the players, really. Like, there's. There's no. Like, we're told very often that this is dangerous and that what they're doing is dangerous and that it has to be kept secret. But it feels more like it has to be kept secret.

01:27:48
Sam
Secret because these people want to stay separate and not like it has to be kept secret because what we're doing is illegal. And I feel like that like K said, like having like someone like a cop in the water or someone to notice them or something like that may have brought that up or brought that into more focus and been better. Maybe they should have all gone to jail. Maybe. Maybe they do get saved and then they just get arrested by the Thai government.

01:28:21
Case
Yeah, that could actually be like a nice point of like circling back to the earlier themes, like when he's in the, like being interrogated by the police. That. Or however you would describe that scene because he's not really interrogated, but it kind of feels like an interrogation where it's just like, sign the form saying you found a suicide.

01:28:36
Will
Yeah.

01:28:36
Case
Just happened to chat. Yeah, if they're being like escorted into prison or jail just by the same cop right there would help, like, at least give some sort of feeling. And not that I want to be like pro cops, but like, these people are worse. Like, yeah, these are reckless white people.

01:28:52
Sam
Destroying natural environments and breaking a huge rule that this island should be untouched.

01:28:58
Case
And ending with a lot of people dead. Like, even in this movie where it's like not as many as it honestly should because they're also incompetent white people. They should also have starved. Like, there should be a lot of bodies, but, like, at the very least, we know of seven people who die as relation to this all. Like, that's. That's a pretty decent kill count for like kind of a fucked up commune.

01:29:20
Sam
Yeah, that is the most boring commune. I'm gonna keep harping on that, guys, because, like, more should have happened in the commune. There should be more of a reason to stay other than like the beach. Is really nice.

01:29:33
Case
Yeah, I want to speculate on that further, but I think that speculation is going to take us into our pitches. So why don't we take a break, let us give a shout out to one of the shows on our network and when we come back, we are going to get into more open speculation about how this movie at the very least, could have not merited a few razzies.

01:29:52
Speaker 4
Hello there, my name is Leo and I'm here to tell you all about my Dune podcast, GOM Jabbar, the perfect podcast for new fans of Dune and longtime fans of Dune alike. Michael co host Abu and I dive deep in both spoiler free and spoiler heavy episodes covering Frank Herbert's original novels, the film adaptations, the board games, the comics, the upcoming video games, the HBO TV series, anything we can get our hands on. We even have a companion book club series to make your first or your 15th read through even better. So if you recently saw Dynamic Villeneuve's adaptation of Dune or if you read Dune back when it came out in 1965, this is the podcast for you. You can find Gom Jabbar on Apple, podcasts on Spotify, pretty much anywhere you find your podcasts.

01:30:46
Speaker 4
And we hope you join us on the golden path.

01:30:50
Case
And we're back. All right, so we've been in this weird spiral, this undertow of just negativity about a lot of the logistics of this movie. But it is a novel that was well regarded. It actually checking the box office. It actually did fairly well. It did 144 million on a budget of 50 which even if you do the like double it for the press and publicity stuff, like you're still looking at a 44 million dollar profit. That's pretty good. But you know, it was nominated for some razzies.

01:31:17
Will
We've.

01:31:18
Case
There's a lot of problems with it that I think are just endemic to that. It is you know, a fairly not self aware colonialist look at like trying to run away from the man. Like you know, there's a lot of like Herb, you know, like not urban, like there's a lot of like youth angst about like Western civilization in there that isn't actually acknowledging that they're still just doing the same. They're still doing a Western civilization. But let's speculate on what we could have done to make it better. Now I have been informed that I am not allowed to go before Sam.

01:31:49
Sam
So he has too many notes who.

01:31:54
Case
Will as I guess would you like to go first or should we put Sam up front.

01:31:58
Will
Okay. I could go first because I'll be. I can be relatively brief as far as what I would want to improve as far as takes on. On this movie. So my. I personally would want to make this more of an ensemble film. Like, I basically would almost want to pitch like a cult version of the Big Chill on the beach because we have so many different characters coming from so many different places that there could be. It could be a lot more interesting to explore not just our main protagonists arc, but everyone else on this beach and why they're there and why they can continue to be there. That is what would be very interesting for me to see. I also love the setting of Thailand, so I would want to see more of.

01:32:49
Will
I would like to see more of the beach and less of the. Of the jungle. I do love Richard's going crazy scene though. His. His Colonel Kurtz moment. And in terms of. Of. And in terms of third act, I would want to stick more to the original. To the original crux of the book, which is to make it a little bit more of a thrilling escape instead of just a sudden snap out of whatever was being built is no longer what we thought it was. I would want it to be more of a thrilling. More of a caper towards the end as far as trying to escape. That's what I would want.

01:33:34
Case
Yeah. I think like we said in the first part, the third act is a real area where it just sort of like doesn't land itself. Having an action beat of them trying to escape, I think would do a lot there. Yeah, I think. Yeah. And more. More of an understanding of what's going on with this main character. And like you said, having more. More characters that have like real three dimensional personalities would definitely help get a feel for how everyone relates to each other. Because Richard's kind of an unreliable narrator and because it's a movie, some of that doesn't quite feel like we know anyone else. We just have the viewpoint of an objectively terrible person saying that everyone else is bad too.

01:34:17
Sam
Yeah.

01:34:17
Case
Yeah, I like that.

01:34:19
Will
Yeah, like have like. It's like, yeah, like, well, what's your ideas on how to make it better, Richard? Like, have some ideas, contribute something.

01:34:28
Case
Yeah. Not just be like, oh, look at me. I'm so good at fishing. Like actually like add to the community. Sam.

01:34:35
Sam
Okay, so this movie was really hard for me to get through, so I really was like, how do I fix this? But I think that I need for it to be more dynamic in the last half and I need A little more upfront to establish relationships in the first half. So I would either go with what Kay said and have the three protagonists already know each other and be traveling, or I would have them meet before he even has a conversation with. I can't remember his name, the crazy dude and Daffy. Daffy. Thank you. I was like, it's a, it's a cartoon and I can't remember his name. And. And I would have them maybe, you know, meet in the hotel bar somewhere. Somewhere or somewhere around town, talk about how they're traveling in.

01:35:31
Sam
It would be very short, maybe a five minute scene, you know, oh, we're from here. Da da da. Kind of get to the fact that they kind of enjoy each other. And you can still have the moment of him being like, traveling alone is really difficult. And then he makes these friends. Because people, when you travel, you do make friends, especially if you're traveling by yourself. You're a little more open to making acquaintances in spaces and especially when drinking is involved. And so. And you know, he could even by happenstance realize that they're actually next door neighbors. They can still be annoying. Sex wise, fine. And you can still have Daffy yell and whatever. And you can have him just be like, oh, I'm sorry for my friends. And that can start the conversation just like, whatever.

01:36:16
Sam
So I do think that it would be way more interesting than to have the cops on the drug, like, drug lord's payroll. I. I think that scene is kind of shot in a way that is very like, it's supposed to seem like the cops are very intimidating and they're fine with just like this crazy white man dying. But I think that it would be more interesting to have them kind of have like a stake in this person, because it doesn't the scene. And I know it's supposed to be to shock us, but that much blood, the way that the blood is spread across the room doesn't make sense for the way that the person died. And it doesn't make sense that Daffy just died like he's murdered. He's clearly murdered from the amount of blood that's around.

01:37:06
Sam
Unless he decided to dance around the room while blood was spurting through his wrists. I know it's for shock and awe, but it doesn't make sense and it bothers me. I watched too many murder documentaries and.

01:37:17
Case
I think his knife is clean too.

01:37:18
Sam
Yeah.

01:37:19
Case
And his knife, I took that as a production issue. But like, yeah, I mean, I see it.

01:37:24
Sam
I just feel like I feel like there was a moment in that scene that was hinting at some sort of conspiracy. And like, then I didn't get it and I felt unfulfilled by that. So I would like to go with a conspiracy and I would like to involve the cops, which is going to help us in the third act. So you find they. They set off, they decide to do this. I think that one of the trio should not want to do it at first. And because he's the only person that I like, I'm going to have that be to Mr. French Boyfriend. He's gonna be like, I'm not sure. And she's gonna be like, pout. I want to. And he's going to be like, fine, let's book it. Let's go to adventure.

01:38:10
Sam
And then everything is going to take a sharp left turn when they get there and they realize that they can't leave and that they're now part of this cult. And I think that drugs should be involved. I think shrooms would be perfect because they already grow a garden. And I think that they just grow that shit on the island on the other side of where the weed is being grown, you know. And maybe this is partially like a thing that maybe they even trade with the farmers. Like, this is like something that they kind of give them sometimes. It's a peace offer, saying they've got like a small alliance, you know, going on. It's not like a big thing, but. And. And they kind of smooth things over with the farmers because the farmers are pissed, because the farmers see them, right?

01:38:55
Sam
And so the part. Farmers pursue them and Sal talks to them down. No, no, it's okay. Like, don't worry. They're going to be the last three that come. Here you go. This is for you. I've picked some vegetables. I've got some of the good stuff for you. Wink, wink, nudge. See you later. See you in a month. Because that's what they're growing for. Because they're also buying their way to stay on the island from the people that are also doing illegal because now they're together in doing illegal commune and drug dealers together forever. So anyway, so now you fast forward shit is going down. Richard's getting way too popular. Sal is feeling like definitely the pressure of the fact that like at first he's not like undermining her authority, but just undermining her boyfriend's authority.

01:39:47
Sam
But at some point she should suggest something and Richard should be like, I don't Think so, like, I think we should do this instead. And people start siding with him. And that's when she decides that she needs to get him on her side and really, like, get him in a space where he is beholden to her. So you can still have the race run happen the way that it does, although it. There needs to be real consequences of them, like sneaking out very quietly, doing it over the COVID of night. And then when they leave, they shouldn't even spend the night. They should be like leaving right after they do it. And because she's still gonna coerce him. And they should basically be getting in the boat and like laying down flat. So they're like floating for part of it coming up. And you're.

01:40:37
Sam
You're building this tension of like, can they get through these reeds without being attacked by animal or by being spotted by any other humans? Because I think that this is important. And then you can still have her discover about the guys and like all of that shit. And you can still have them come onto the island. But I think that one of the farmers needs to radio the mainland because this is a problem because it's been breached and that's when the cops come in. And I think that everyone should be either killed or arrested. And that's the only way it'll make me feel better about any of these terrible people. I want most of them to die not lying. I think that Richard shouldn't die. I think that he should survive, but be wounded enough that maybe he loses an appendage.

01:41:23
Sam
Because I hate him that much. And. And I think that he, in that way he can really pay for his inconsiderate crimes. And yeah, I hate him, actually. No, you know, that was really ableist of me. No, I'm not going to say that. I just want him to go to prison. I want him to do time. I want him to do time for his stuff. He can keep all his limbs. Fuck it, Case, your turn.

01:41:47
Case
Yeah.

01:41:47
Will
All right.

01:41:50
Case
All right. So I would open.

01:41:51
Sam
I want to say that I want the same cop to basically like, make sure that he goes to prison for drug trafficking, to make sure he silenced. Because that's how the conspiracy loops around. I forgot that. Go on.

01:42:04
Case
Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna piggyback on those ideas because I do actually like that. Because I had the same question when I first saw the. The dead body. Like, is that actually, like. Is that actually like a suicide? And it seemed very pushing at that. So I would open the movie on an image of writhing snakes. I Think that opening with the snake blood scene actually could work. Especially because as you. You start off with the central image of just flesh moving around and so forth. And then you pull up as the snake bites at the glass and you see Leonardo DiCaprio's face, and in front of him is the shot glass of blood. And next to him would be Francois and Etienne being a devil and angel on his shoulder being like, don't do it. Wait, no, you said you would do it.

01:42:48
Case
You borrowed money from me to do it. You have to do it. Something to that effect. But set them up as actually already a traveling trio right there, where they're. They're already together in this. And that Richard is definitely the one who keeps on convincing them to go to situations that are dangerous. And the fact that they survive is good, but that's it. Like, they just. They just barely got away with that one. You know, have. Have them, you know, head back to the hostel. You know, have. Have sort of similar scenes kind of play out. I would love to have a little more explanation about why the island is cool. Like, it's not just, oh, it's untouched. Like, emphasize. Like, there's so much English language everywhere. Like, there's so much Western culture everywhere.

01:43:25
Case
There's so much like, all this, like, Western imperialism coming in and, like, inserting itself in what they came to find a place that was not that they came to, like, see a different part of the world. Instead, they're getting food at 7:11, like on their way back from. From the bar or something to that effect. And it's like, this is weird and strange, but I like the idea of it not being intentional, because I think we can make that work. Like, I. I like the idea of having that cop sort of be a central figure, especially because he's like, just sign it. Like, just sign the statement. It just says this because at the end, then he could be like, just sign it. And the statement is like, no, I was drug trafficking and I'm going to go to jail.

01:43:59
Case
I think that is potentially interesting. Or that, like, he's signing it, that his other people were like, that Cassie, like, someone else from the ship, like, from the island was behind it all that.

01:44:09
Sam
So, Richard, go on.

01:44:10
Case
Yeah, it would be really. Richard, like, that he, you know, sold out everyone on top of everything, you know, because it is Danny Boyle. He did do train spotting. Rent's not a good guy either. Like, at the end, Rent. Rent gets everyone in jail. So, like, that there is that element too. You could do a similar kind of Twist there. But I think that like, their travel should be really focused for the first 20 minutes of the movie on how much western culture has inserted itself here. Like, we get shots of white people like having their fat butts being massaged by like Thai workers. But like focus on that. Like they're. There's no attention really given to them or to the ecosystem that sort of sprung up by like western money coming in or anything like that.

01:44:53
Case
Have, have an element of that focus there so that we are at least aware that the movie comes down on the people of the commune being shitty people too. Like, we need to sort of sell that all of this is terrible and it's just crowded and hedonistic and gross. What, what again, white people have done to this all. When we get to the island, I would like to draw more connections between Daffy, Bugs and Sal like I said they should. They are a parallel structure to the main three. But I think that the island should be, or rather the beach area should be larger. Like in the book. There's the vibe that it's like a bigger space that they can like split off into. But like in what we see, it looks like a fairly small area.

01:45:38
Case
Like you're not going to have like broken up communities separated out if they're all. If just a tiny little beach area like it. Like if they have their main like home and like a lot more space to sort of like work around. Like there's like set, you know, they've got the lookout stations and so forth. Like have a vibe that this is a larger community that they're building that is occasionally going through some hurdles because they're not good at what they're doing. Like the idea like the fact that we get a kind of a throwaway about like, oh, we got fungus in our rice. Like they're bad at all of this. Like they're not good at staying alive. They're doing their best, but they're. They came here half cocked thinking that they knew what they were doing, but. But they're not that smart.

01:46:17
Case
Like no one here should be that smart. And Sam, I like your thought about having to work with the farmers. Like if the farmers had came once the three came on and we had like a peace treaty scene. Like something where it's like, okay, we'll like, here is our peace offering. We're sorry that these people have come to join us. It was, you know, they say it's Daffy's fault or whatever like that. I actually think that can Be kind of cool to like set up that there is more of a gentle balance between this other, these other powers there. Because you could then set up as like, all right, well they're potentially a way that they are getting some of their resources like throughout as opposed to having to make runs.

01:46:46
Case
And maybe they're expressly forbidden from doing those runs themselves and that the farmers are doing it for them for whatever they trade. So that when they do a run there's these added danger that like the farmers are scared about them doing a run. And then we could also have again the cops being scared about them doing a run. When we come back, it's not just that they go and there's like a nightlife in bars. Like they go shopping, like they're going shopping for that are like conveniences that we have. And that should continue to emphasize this whole, like there's all this crap that has just been like overlaid in a community where like, okay, now there are stores where you can buy western goods. And it should feel like kind of oppressive.

01:47:23
Case
Like it, like they are all of a sudden face to face with the things that they were trying to escape from when they do this shopping run. Not just, oh, people get drunk like that doesn't sell the decadence of western civilization that they're trying to escape and be cynical about like that. It just doesn't like that sound that sells the decadence of someone who's anti social in his like mid-20s being like those guys. Like I'm. And I'd like to sort of move away from that kind of vibe. I like the idea of when they come back, it sort of becomes more fractured and so forth. But I, you know, the weird Vietnam flashback stuff I think is fun. The daffy stuff I think is fun.

01:47:58
Case
The idea that the on Rewatch realizing that the farmers were very aware that he was sneaking around them all the time and like getting into their camp and messing with their stuff, but like not doing anything permanent and that they're annoyed but like kind of like they're not going to do anything because it's just like not going to kill a guy just because he's a fucking annoying like prick. Like vibes should be there. They should almost feel like the grownups in this situation as the commune itself devolves. Like the farmers are just like, they step in when it's like, you're definitely going to bring cops right now. Like you've got people coming. They like we freaked out because they like looked like they Were like stepping forward and we shot them.

01:48:33
Case
And that's bad because now their families are going to come looking for them. You're fucking up everything that we have. And that should be like the final catalyst. That is enough chaos that when however the community starts to fracture and whatnot, that the farmers inserting themselves is how it's. There's enough chaos for everyone to try to escape, for Richard and Etienne and Francois to try to escape. And maybe they get arrested on their way back. And I was thinking during the race run maybe when Sal leaves Richard to like, she goes to play pool and he like goes to warm the bed. Because I think they arrive at night and probably they would do the shopping in the morning and then like travel back out at night.

01:49:11
Case
So like they arrive at night and they would probably stay at a hotel for a night just to. Or a hostel or whatever just to function in the morning for this whole thing. Maybe someone should try to kill him. And that's actually Sal trying to put a person to kill him. And he gets away from it. And Sal, not being able to physically assault him, decides to seduce him as a way of like controlling him from a different perspective, you know, because Richard apparently is fairly capable in certain circumstances. He's a good fisherman. He can kill a shark. Like I could imagine he could get away from someone trying to beat him up.

01:49:42
Sam
Yeah, I mean, I. And he does, he does adapt really well to the jungle, even though he's just being annoying person when he's touching all of their. So he is useful. He's just a terrible human being.

01:49:58
Case
Yeah. Although I don't want him to be too useful. I don't want him to be like good at it too much of a degree. I feel like he should be picking out the wrong things to eat, which is why he should be going crazy. Like he's grabbing the wrong fruits, he's grabbing the wrong mushrooms. Like his body is like not. Is rejecting it and he's hallucinating like crazy as a result and things can get weird and the third act could be lots of trippy in there. You know, we've got moments for that, like PlayStation 1 style graphics at spots. We could have some more hallucinations and stuff. Like have the dead baby scene from Trainspotting. Like we're very close to it already. Like have some more of it. Like have fun with all that. So.

01:50:33
Will
Yeah.

01:50:34
Case
And I. Either he gets away and he like pins it all on Sal or he himself goes to jail. Something But I like that symmetry of having the cop at the end and him sort of feeling like he's concluding Daffy's work of destroying the community. Like, maybe the cops show up on the island and now everything's up. Like, I don't know. That's kind of my thoughts there. Like, it. It just doesn't seem to have enough of a story relative to the book. Like, the book actually has, like, plot beats that. I'm like, oh, okay. I get, like, this all feels like a lot of stuff's going on and it's all internal, but it's there versus. Versus the movie. The way everything kind of collapses in on itself. Like, when Richard shows up and Kitty is like, what are you doing here in the dark?

01:51:13
Case
I'm like, wait, has he just been coming home, like, staying in the community at night every night? Like, has he been hanging?

01:51:18
Sam
Like, Yeah, I don't know. Like, it's not clear. It's not clear at all.

01:51:23
Case
Yeah. Like, we spend two. Everything is too fast for the spots that I want to spend more time on in this movie and not fast enough for the spots I don't like. I think that having more time spent with the community or the commune and seeing, like, why it's so great would be a big selling point. Like, oh, I get interpersonal relationships. Get. Get a big orgy going so that we can get that writhing flesh. Like maybe the rival mids. The mid movie. Writhing flesh is like a big orgy. And then the end of the movie, writhing flesh is like a bunch of people being herded into a prison.

01:51:54
Sam
Yeah.

01:51:54
Case
Or into a jail or dead.

01:51:55
Sam
Because that's also a happy ending.

01:51:57
Case
Yeah.

01:51:58
Sam
A pile of bodies, like, and then they all died. That. That could also be okay.

01:52:04
Case
Yeah. So that was kind of my thought. I. I toyed around with the idea of it being, like, in media res, like, open with him on the beach and then flashing back to getting to the beach, and then we actually see what's behind him on the beach, which is the commune. But I don't think that really works. I will say that the movie as is pretty perfect as a D and D campaign. Like, it works really well if you're. If you're like, these are the elves and those are the orcs and, like, you know, or whatever, like, kind of tropey way you want to do it. The island where it's like, we have to stay secret because we can't incur the wrath of the, like, people who are living away.

01:52:36
Case
And we have, like, a basic, like, a Very crude treaty that could be broken kind of thing. Feels like that kind of fantasy stuff. And the problem that it doesn't work here in this setting is because the real world has a lot more rules and so forth than what you would have in that kind of a fantasy environment. So it. And it would work better also if you're the person internalizing the events as opposed to, like, a viewer watching a movie about it all. So I don't know. That was just like, a thought I had while watching it, being like, oh, there's like death traps because people keep going crazy and like, putting like. Like, you know, like. Like. Like drop pits with, like, spikes in there and stuff like that. Perfect setting for a D and D game. Like, but.

01:53:14
Case
But not a perfect setting for a movie.

01:53:16
Sam
Yeah. As a result, again, I think, like, if they had just doubled down on the cult thing, it probably would have been just more interesting. Add some drugs, add some. Add some more sex, and. And, you know, make sure that Richard leaves more than just with that tattoo as punishment because, you know, he says scars. I think that's why I jumped to, like, him losing a limb. But. But I don't ever see him being repentant, you know, Like, I don't see him actually pay for any of the things he did. And I think, like, you don't have to redeem him, but I think, like, it would be much more interesting if there is a cost to him. That is a real.

01:54:01
Case
If every time he closed his eyes, he saw, like, the dead body of Christos or anyone else like, that would feel like he's, like, haunted by his journey. Yeah.

01:54:10
Will
Like it had an effect on him in some way.

01:54:12
Sam
Yeah. We just don't. We just don't get that by the end. And I. I just. That's why I'm like, I would like them to go to jail or I'd like, you know, something. I mean, like, honestly, he. The ending, he looks too well adjusted into modern society. Like, yes, he's not talking to his parents, but, like, he looks well adjusted. Like, he looks fine.

01:54:32
Case
Yeah, we need it. We need a. Well, like you said, like, more of an effect on us like that. That the. Like, he at the end seem. Seems okay. His hair's. His haircut's actually better than what's. For the majority of the movie. Everything seems good for him. We need. We need some scars on him because this movie has to have lasting consequences for him.

01:54:56
Sam
It doesn't. It's just something that happened last summer. That's basically what it is.

01:55:01
Case
Basically. Yeah, it needs to have consequences that are as severe as the ones that it put on us, the audience. But I feel like we're now falling back into sort of the fury of like, why doesn't this cult make sense? So why don't we call it here? Because we're going. Like I said, just we're.

01:55:22
Sam
We need to leave the beach. The beach is closed. The beach is closed.

01:55:26
Case
Yeah. We're causing too much environmental damage. Like, we need to move on.

01:55:29
Will
Exactly.

01:55:31
Case
So will give your plugs. Who are you? Where can people find you? All of that.

01:55:37
Will
I am a stand up comic and podcaster. I host a podcast called between awesome and Disaster where I interview comedians and figures in the pop, punk rock and alternative music worlds. I also play bass in a punk rock band called Bright Ugly. And you can find everything related to what I do@awesome disaster.com awesome as far.

01:56:00
Case
As social media goes, anything you want to plug there?

01:56:02
Will
I'm Omicwill Cary on Twitter. I am willcarry23 on Instagram and again, links to everything is@awesome disaster.com okay, people.

01:56:14
Case
Should go check that out. Sam, where can they check you out?

01:56:17
Sam
They can find me here and they can find me on our Discord, which I sometimes check. And then I know where else because I am just hanging out on a beach in my commune, just having some shrooms. So I'm sorry. So if you have any complaints, you can talk to Case.

01:56:37
Case
Yeah, you can find me on Twitter at Case Aiken. You can find the podcast at Another Pass. You can find more episodes of this shows and tons of great shows@ certainpov.com we've got so many great shows like CPOV Autographs. Another interview show, CPOV Autographs is hosted by our editor, Matt Storm, who has had Will Carey on. He's had me on. It's also an interview show. So that's an. If you. If you like interview shows, you should check that out and you should check out between awesome and Disaster. Both of those are great podcasts. One of the. One of which is on our network. The other one is not. But they're both great shows, so check those out. Check out our Discord server. You can find a link on our website or in the description for this episode.

01:57:18
Case
From there you can come engage with us directly. But until next time, Sam, what have we got going on?

01:57:26
Sam
Next time we'll be talking about Highlander 2, the Quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

01:57:38
Will
Thanks for listening to certain Point of Views. Another past podcast, don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on itunes. Just go to certainpov.com.

01:57:51
Sam
Another pass is a certain POV production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm, our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken, our intro theme is by Vin Macri and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.

01:58:07
Case
I feel like I stumbled there at the end, but that's okay Matt, you'll clean it up.

01:58:11
Sam
Sure he will.

01:58:12
Case
I'm sorry.

01:58:12
Sam
Or you can leave it in Matt and we can just make fun of Case.

01:58:17
Case
Yeah, that's also. That's good for post credits.

01:58:21
Will
Hi, I'm Matt, aka Stormageddon and I'm the host of CPOV autographs@ certainpov.com it is a bi weekly interview series where I interview folks from all over the arts, from writers to comedians to magicians, musicians to musicians, even actors, historians, podcasters, pretty much anyone who's willing to chat with me for a little bit. If you like interesting conversations with even more interesting people, go to certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, music is life and life is good.

01:58:50
Case
CPOV certainpov.com.

  Transcribed by https://fireflies.ai/