Another Pass at Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2014)

This week on Another Pass, Sam and Case are joined by their very own editor Sophia Ricciardi to take on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2014)! We dig into the film’s bold redesigns, chaotic energy, and whether this modern take on the Heroes in a Half Shell captures what makes the Turtles work—or misses the mark entirely.

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Another Pass Full Episode

Originally aired: April 10, 2026

Music by Vin Macri and Matt Brogan

Podcast Edited by Sophia Ricciardi Certain Point Of View is a podcast network brining you all sorts of nerdy goodness! From Star Wars role playing, to Disney day dreaming, to video game love, we've got the show for you! Learn more on our website: https://www.certainpov.com

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Identity Crisis Affects Narrative: The movie struggled with its identity, dropping core elements and inserting convoluted backstories mid-production.

• Character Design Issues: Turtles' designs were criticized as grotesque, reducing relatability and making action scenes less believable.

• Storytelling Problems: Over-explained plots, especially regarding April O'Neil and Eric Sacks, bogged down the movie's pacing and clarity.

• Setting Conflicts: The film's setting away from New York City limited key identity elements and iconic landmarks associated with the turtles.

• Mixed Reception of Cast: Alan Ritchson as Raphael received praise, while others like Johnny Knoxville and Megan Fox faced criticism for their roles.

• Cultural Context Matters: The film reflected a 2014 era not fully embracing nerd culture, impacting its creative choices and audience reception.

Notes

Production and Narrative Challenges

This 2014 Ninja Turtles movie struggled with a lack of creative love and identity, making it feel like a disjointed and ashamed adaptation of the franchise (00:00).

• Identity Crisis and Shame Factor heavily influenced the movie’s tone and plot, with the film almost dropping the “Teenage Mutant” part and considering alien origins for the turtles (11:31).

  • The film’s producers inserted convoluted backstory elements mid-production to “course correct” a script that initially strayed far from the core Ninja Turtles mythos.

  • This led to an over-explained, bogged-down narrative that felt like a “walk of shame” rather than an embrace of the IP’s strengths.

  • The era’s mainstream culture had not fully embraced nerd properties, causing awkward attempts at modernization and distancing.

• Plot Bloat and Over-Explanation detracted from the movie’s pacing and engagement, especially with April O’Neil’s bloated and often unconvincing reporter storyline (20:53).

  • Scenes focus too long on generic Michael Bay-style action and April’s personal struggles rather than on the turtles themselves.

  • The turtles are introduced late and spend much of the runtime as shadowy figures rather than engaging characters.

• Convoluted Villain Backstory with Eric Sacks as an unnecessary intermediary between Shredder and the turtles, adding complexity that did not improve the story (01:10:14).

  • Removing or significantly trimming Sacks’ role was proposed as a way to streamline the narrative.

• Mismatch in Tone and Style was evident, with the movie trying to be serious and gritty while relying on CGI-heavy, unrealistic action sequences that lacked tangible physicality (35:42).

  • The film’s heavy use of CGI and complex mech suit for Shredder overshadowed traditional martial arts choreography that defines the franchise.

Character and Design Issues

The film’s character portrayals and designs undermined the essence of the Ninja Turtles, alienating fans and harming engagement (28:35).

• Turtle Designs Were Widely Disliked for being oversized, grotesque, and overly detailed with “human teeth” that made them less relatable and more monstrous (29:50).

  • Their giant size and bulletproof nature reduced the importance of their ninja skills and made fight scenes less believable.

  • Complex textures and too many visual details caused action scenes to become “CGI mush,” making it hard to focus on key movements.

• Character Imbalance and Focus on Raphael turned the movie into essentially a Raphael-centric story, sidelining the other turtles and undermining the team dynamic (56:20).

  • Alan Ritchson’s portrayal of Raphael was praised as the best casting and performance in the film.

  • Other turtles like Leonardo and Donatello were underused; Michelangelo was poorly written as an overly sexualized and annoying character.

• April O’Neil’s Role and Writing were criticized for being unconvincing and bloated, with her professional competence and motivations feeling unrealistic and distracting (26:00).

  • The forced “chosen one” connection between April and the turtles was seen as unnecessary and cheapened her acceptance of them.

• Supporting Characters like Will Arnett’s cameraman were noted as relatively decent additions, providing human perspective and some humor without overwhelming the story (48:42).

Setting and Visual Context

The movie’s setting choices and visual style weakened the core appeal of the franchise, distancing it from the turtles’ iconic New York City roots (43:58).

• Misplaced Setting Outside New York City for large portions of the movie conflicted with the turtles’ identity as New York City teens and vigilantes (44:50).

  • Much of the film occurs in an ambiguous upstate New York mansion and mountain, disconnected from the urban environment central to the turtles’ story.

  • This choice limited opportunities to showcase iconic city landmarks and the turtles’ connection to their home turf.

• Visual Style Reflects 2010s Orange-Teal Trend, which while vibrant, was harsh and contributed to a stylized look that did not fit the tone of the movie (16:45).

• Snowboarding and Chase Sequences were seen as fun and reminiscent of video game-inspired action but felt out of place and disconnected from the turtles’ core habitat (48:42).

  • These sequences resembled arcade game levels rather than integrated story moments.

Proposed Fixes and Editorial Improvements

A major consensus was that the movie could be improved significantly by cutting down excess plot and focusing much earlier and more on the turtles themselves (01:09:02).

• Streamline April’s Story and Cut Eric Sacks to reduce narrative bloat and confusing backstory (01:10:14).

  • Compress April’s investigation into one clear sequence, eliminating multiple instances of Foot Clan encounters and confusing plot threads.

  • Remove or minimize Sacks to focus villainy on Shredder and the Foot Clan.

• Introduce the Turtles Sooner and Add More Teenage Interactions to showcase their personalities and team dynamics earlier in the movie (01:10:14).

  • Incorporate scenes like the elevator banter to emphasize their teenage traits and humor.

  • Sprinkle in more Foot Clan fights to build suspense and showcase ninja action throughout.

• Focus on Making the Final Third Action-Packed but Clear, allowing the action sequences to flow without unnecessary interruptions (01:10:14).

  • Keep the fight choreography that works, such as the Shredder vs. Splinter sequence, while trimming excess.

• Possible Reshoots or Edits to downplay or rework problematic story elements like April’s “chosen one” status and the lab origin flashbacks (01:19:47).

  • Use existing footage more efficiently to maintain story coherence while trimming excess.

• Emphasize Fun and Character Chemistry earlier to avoid the film feeling “all tension” and “boring” (01:15:07).

  • Add small moments of levity, camaraderie, and ninja antics before the big action scenes.

• Maintain Realistic Expectations about how much could be changed given the film’s production timeline and 2014-era constraints (01:25:21).

Cast and Performances

Certain casting choices were praised while others detracted from the film’s overall impact on character believability (03:51).

• Alan Ritchson as Raphael was widely considered the best fit and performance, capturing Raphael’s classic loner and heartfelt traits well (51:05).

  • His emotional speech and portrayal of Raphael’s arc were highlights.

• Johnny Knoxville as Leonardo was underused and miscast, with his limited screen time failing to do justice to the character (53:34).

• Megan Fox’s April O’Neil was critiqued for lacking investment and acting strength, which weakened the emotional core of her storyline (24:35).

• Will Arnett’s Cameraman Character was a positive surprise, providing light humor and a grounded human viewpoint without dominating the narrative (48:42).

• Whoopi Goldberg’s Role was underutilized and seen as wasted potential given her talent (28:35).

Franchise and Cultural Context

The film reflects the cultural and franchise environment of the early 2010s, impacting its creative choices and reception (14:07).

• 2014 Era Nerd Culture Not Fully Embraced, leading to awkward attempts at modernization and distancing from the core turtle identity (14:07).

  • The movie’s shame about being a Ninja Turtles film echoes similar issues seen in early Transformers films.

• Comparisons with Other Ninja Turtles Iterations show this movie as weaker, especially compared to its sequel and animated projects like Mutant Mayhem that clearly love the source material (02:41).

  • The sequel “Turtles Out of the Shadows” was noted as far more fun and faithful.

• Discussion of the Franchise’s Multi-Generational Appeal highlighted the turtles’ ability to adapt but also underscored the risk of losing core essence through unnecessary changes (06:18).

• Audience Distrust and Over-Explanation reflects a production that did not trust viewers to accept the turtles as they are, leading to excessive exposition and forced justifications (18:04).

• Product Placement and Minor Details like Windows Phones on characters’ devices were noted as subtle but fun touches (01:02:00).

Meeting Outline

• Meeting Outline

  • Introduction (00:00)

    • Discussion on the 2014 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie and its flaws.

    • Case Aiken and Sam Alicea host the podcast, with Sofia Ricciardi as a guest.

  • Background on Ninja Turtles (01:32)

    • Exploration of the hosts' personal connections to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles franchise.

    • Each host shares their childhood experiences with the franchise.

  • Film Overview (03:51)

    • Opinions on the 2014 movie, described as the least favored among the Ninja Turtles films.

    • Discussion on the film's strengths and weaknesses.

  • Character Analysis (06:18)

    • Examination of the character designs for the turtles and their significance.

    • Alan Ritchson’s portrayal of Raphael is highlighted positively.

  • Plot and Themes (10:23)

    • Critique of the film’s plot structure and pacing, particularly the introduction of characters.

    • Discussion on the film’s failure to embrace its source material fully.

  • Viewer Engagement (14:15)

    • Comments on the film’s engagement level and whether it resonates with fans.

    • Exploration of the humor and character dynamics within the film.

  • Production Insights (19:30)

    • Discussion on behind-the-scenes challenges faced during production.

    • Mention of the various drafts of the script and their implications on the final film.

  • Editorial Perspective (22:45)

    • Suggestions for how to improve the film through editing and narrative focus.

    • Emphasis on restructuring the film to highlight the turtles more effectively.

  • Conclusion (28:00)

    • Final thoughts on the film and the importance of honoring the franchise’s legacy.

    • Encouragement to engage with the podcast and other shows in the network.

Transcription

00:00
Sophia
Again, the biggest thing in this movie is that it does not love being a turtle. It doesn't love the Ninja Turtles, and that shines throughout. So I. It's just.

00:08
Sam
It only loves Wolverine Raphael.

00:10
Sophia
It loves Wolverine Raphael. Maybe we just like cut all the other turtles out and it's just a raph movie now. Like, we just be like, I don't know, Alan. It's all you, buddy. I'll bring it home for us.

00:21
Sam
Start when they're already abducted and just have him go to sleeve them.

00:26
Case
Yeah, see, that would be a fine sequel to. To this movie if it was like pure. Like a pure Raphael movie you could do because that's x2.

00:35
Sophia
Yeah.

00:36
Case
If we're keeping the Wolverine comparison right there. Welcome to Certain POVs, another past podcast with Case and Sam where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Another Pass podcast. I'm Case Aiken and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alicea. Hi, Sam. You know what time it is?

01:12
Sam
Is it time for pizza?

01:14
Case
Yes. Yes, it is. It is.

01:15
Sam
Because I'm going to love pizza.

01:17
Case
I do too. And you know who else loves pizza?

01:20
Sam
The turtles. We love.

01:22
Case
Yes, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. In our quest to go through all of the lesser turtles movies, we have finally come around to the 2014 Michael Bay produced Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie. And to have that conversation, we are joined by a wonderful person who on her own podcast just did a slew of Ninja Turtles movies, including, I believe this one.

01:41
Sophia
I did the sequel to this, so.

01:43
Case
Oh, you did the sequel.

01:44
Sophia
A Moving Backwards in Turtle Time. Not Turtles in Time, which is a movie I did not cover. But still backwards in the turtle chronological timeline.

01:53
Case
Yes. Well, who's that voice? It's our editor, Sofia Ricciardi.

01:56
Sophia
Hey, Adi.

01:57
Case
Hey, Sophia. Welcome back to the show. You are often someone we call out to in ways that get edited out from the actual podcast, but it's wonderful to have you actually able to respond back on this one.

02:09
Sophia
So excited to be here and to get to in real time, give notes to myself and also talk back to you guys. This is. This is a real. We're the Turtles in Time. I'm going to try and make that reference as many times as possible. I've locked that joke in for the past.

02:20
Sam
I love it. I love it. Absolutely.

02:21
Case
Yeah. Yeah. Which is funny because that was like a later tagged on name because it wasn't what it was originally called. But for Brand synergy with the video game. They went with that. Yeah. So we're talking about Teenage Mutant Ninja turtles, specifically the 2014 one, the one that everyone calls the Michael Bay one, even though it. It was actually directed by Jonathan Liebesman. Yeah. So this is my least favorite Ninja Turtles movie, but I have a theory, which is that, at least for me, there is no Ninja Turtles movie that I won't enjoy. Like, it's that, like, shocking. Yeah. Like, there is a lot to love in every Ninja Turtles movie, but this is one that has a lot to dislike. It's awesome. It's awesome and awful at the same time in a lot of ways.

03:06
Case
You know, it's nice to have a big budget like Ninja Turtles movie on screen and to have. I mean, like, there's some things going on really well in this movie. I mean, like, Alan Ritchson is in it, and I. I love Alan Richson. Like, he's a giant cool nerd. And I mean giant because he's Reacher.

03:22
Sophia
They. They made him a giant turtle, and then years later, they made him a giant man. And that's. That's beautiful. We love that.

03:27
Case
God made him a giant man.

03:32
Sophia
Oh, man. I. You know, I think I'm a big Ninja Turtles fan. As Keis mentioned, I've watched many Ninja Turtles movies. I think I've seen every Ninja Turtles movie that exists. But also for a movie struck. We did a whole month of Ninja Turtles movies. So it's all very fresh in my brain, including the sequel to this, which I think is the far superior variant of this era of Turtles movies.

03:51
Case
By far.

03:52
Sophia
By far. But I think that there's. You could see kernels of what will become almost a good movie in this. But it is, for me, I think this is still a kind of unenjoyable Turtles movie, which is a shame because there's people, pieces of things that kind of work. They just didn't get pushed together in an interesting box.

04:09
Case
Yeah, because, like, when you compare out of the Shadows, the follow up to this, it's like beat for beat the same. Like, the actual structure of the movie is identical, like, right down to, like, we're going to have a whole action sequence of us traveling down something by way of gravity or a river, forcing us down the way at the exact same beat point. But it's. Yeah, it just happens to have Bebop and Rocksteady riding a tank down the Amazon river in a way that is just way more enjoyable to watch. Not that I don't. Not that I actually have A big problem with the snowboarding scene in this movie. I'll say that. I think that there are several action points that I'm like, yeah.

04:46
Case
No, I mean, it's like Bay Transformers esque, but it's better than Bay Transformers in at least the majority of the movies in that franchise. Yeah. I mean, okay, so let's talk about our association with the Ninja Turtles because it's been a minute since we've had Ninja Turtle topics on this show. We've talked about, I Talked about Turtles 3 way back at the beginning of this show with Adi Thomas. I talked about the original Ninja Turtles movie as a fifth episode with John Lestrange. And then we talked about Ninja Turtles 2 with Micah McCaw shortly after we did our run of Planet of the Apes episodes. So we've talked about several of the Ninja Turtles. We talked about the original trilogy, basically. And it should come as no surprise. I'm a child of the 80s.

05:31
Case
I was distinctly into he man and then Turtles came out and I was into Turtles and that was my thing for a really long time. I love playing the Ninja Turtles video games. That was a huge part of my youth and remains a thing that I go back and revisit all the time. Shredder's Revenge is great. The, the Cowabunga collection is fantastic. It lets you play. Oh, yeah. It lets you play like the classic arcade game on demand and it's fantastic. Lot lots of love for the Ninja Turtles franchise. The later cartoons I have watched, I haven't watched as slavishly as I did the original series. I've got, I've got the DVD set that is the party Wagon.

06:06
Sophia
Very, very nice.

06:07
Case
Yes, it's very cool. It's, it's wonderful because it has actually a working rolling van. It just opens up to reveal the DVD collection for the entire run of the Ninja Turtles animated series. So I, I, I'm the target demo for a movie like this. An update of the Ninja Turtles, especially one that is playing to the nostalgia of the 80s, specifically. Sam, why don't you refresh people on your association with the Ninja Turtles?

06:33
Sam
I am also a child of the 80s and the ninja Turtles are just like, I guess, sugar to us. Like, how can we live without them? No, I mean, come on. They were incredible. It's just such a fun franchise. I mean, they're great. I mean, I actually liked all three of the original films that came out during my lifetime. And much like you, Casey. Yeah, they're. Have a good Time watching Ninja Turtle properties. They're fun no matter what because the characters at the core are fun. Honestly, pretty much almost every adaptation. I can't even think of anything that doesn't do the characters justice in some way or another. They may not always feel exactly the same, but the. The. The archetypes for the characters are kind of tried and true.

07:29
Sam
And there, I mean, like, I saw people arguing about which Ninja Turtle if they thought, like, a Ninja Turtle would be. I saw some might. Which one would be secretly Republican. And, like, there was a really, like, there was a real good argument for, like, reciting people between, like, Donatello and Raphael, because Donatello is very into, like, chatgpt in the new cartoons. And they were like, he's gonna be, like, a tech bro. Like, he's gonna, like, be very, like, loving Elon Musk a little too hard. And then people like, no, but Raf is like, old school anger management. And the fact that people can have discussions about these characters and, like, argue about what they're supposed to, political affiliations may or not be, whether it's right or wrong. I do love that this universe gives people enough to do that.

08:23
Sam
So kudos to everyone who's had a hand in working, creating, and expanding the universe of the Ninja Turtles to give fans all sorts of weird shit to argue about and ponder everywhere. Having said that. Yeah, like, I had lots of toys, watched every movie. I've watched a lot of the new cartoons, too, because I just think that they're fun and adorable and. Yeah, you know, I think that they're just. It's a great series and a great franchise that can just live on and reboot all the time.

08:58
Case
Yeah. And Sophia, you mentioned movie struck, but what's your background with the Turtles?

09:03
Sophia
Yeah, I was a child of the late 90s, early 2000s. So my turtles growing up were the 2003 animated series which aired on 4Kids.

09:11
Sam
And.

09:11
Sophia
And I remember this very vividly that there would be a full hour of Ninja Turtles every Saturday morning. And so every Saturday morning for most of my childhood, I spent at least an hour with the four teens with two the Ninja Turtles. And I love them from childhood. There's a very comforting, nostalgic feeling I get every iteration of the Turtles that pops up, because, like Sam said, they're very recognizable, repeatable characters. Even when people add differences or change up the formula a little bit, it's really hard to lose that core essence of what makes the Turtles. You know, what is the breakdown and even the expanded cast of, like, who's popping up, who's popping in. But I grew up on the 2003 series. I went through and watched. I think I've seen every ninja Turtles movie at this point. But I.

09:55
Sophia
You know, I was the prime age to go see this movie in theaters when it came out. This was kind of like, I was probably in the target demo for it. I would have been like, early teens. Just been fun to kind of come back to them time and time again. I've been getting into the IDW comics lately. There was a really great new run that kicked up last year, and it's fun to see the turtles in all their different mediums, because I feel like what medium they're in really ends up determining how serious the turtles get and what kinds of stories about them get told. The movies tend to be goofier, and the comics tend to trend a little bit more serious. And the turtles went to court recently. It was crazy serious with an asterisk.

10:34
Sophia
It is still a giant mutant ninja Turtle. Who's doing this? But, no, I love these guys. I think it's really fun that every generation gets their Ninja Turtles, and it's fun when someone adapts this property that really clearly loves it. A good touch point for this, for me, would be mutant mayhem. Clearly, everyone who worked on that project either grew up with the turtles or has come to love them as their kids, have grown up with them, and is deeply, you know, invested in the spirit of this thing, the fun spirit that the turtles can bring on screen. And it really comes through. And I think that might be the core of what's missing for me in this movie, is that I'm not super convinced that everyone who worked on it really likes the Ninja Turtles.

11:13
Case
Oh, for sure. Because this movie almost was, like, as far afield from a Ninja Turtles movie as it could be.

11:19
Sam
Yeah.

11:20
Case
If the original leaks of them being supposed to be aliens was actually true, which gets called out in this movie. So I feel pretty comfortable saying, like, yeah, it was probably in there at a certain point. Or the race swapping of Shredder to being a white guy. Yeah. So this gets into my thoughts about this movie that I was sharing with you before we started, which is. So this movie almost went really bad. Like, it almost was a terrible, like, completely not Ninja Turtles kind of property, to the point that they almost dropped the Teenage Mutant part of the title just to call it Ninja Turtles because they were going to be aliens. And that. That. That leaves me with. With a weird feeling talking about this movie because they did a lot to course correct. You can see it when you.

12:06
Case
When you watch it. Like, you can. You can see how the scenes are inserted with more Shredder stuff and how Eric Sachs gets sort of like, taken from being the main villain to being sort of the dragon for him. You can see how the April o' Neill stuff sort of got rewritten a little bit. You can see all the pieces that were originally not going to work and how they tried to hammer them into place so that they do work enough as a movie. And I'm not convinced that this movie actually could be that much better. There's certainly things that are bad about this movie that I'm like, yeah, we could take that out, absolutely. But with.

12:41
Case
With the production team involved and with the rewrites that they did, like, I. I'm almost amazed that it's as coherent a Ninja Turtles movie as it is based on where it came from. And like, this isn't one of those, like, oh, this is practically a fifth episode ones where it's like, oh, the movie's actually, like, kind of good. And so we're like, oh, yeah, maybe it's actually like, it wasn't that bad that it had these issues behind the scenes. No, I, like, I just think that this movie ended up as, like, mediocre as it could be to smooth out the rough edges that were like, really rough in this thing. And so, like, I understand, like, Sophia, you not being a huge fan of it as a Turtles movie, like, it certainly ranks in my bottom.

13:22
Case
I usually pair it with Turtles three as, like, my worst two. But, like, I fully understand not liking it, but I'm not sure unless, I mean, like, we'll see how this conversation goes and we'll see what we can sort of isolate that could make it stronger. But it already fought an uphill battle just to be a movie.

13:43
Sophia
Yeah, it's definitely. I think there's something to be said for they overcame the great obstacle of no one working on this. Really wanted to make a Ninja Turtles movie, and we have to reinsert the teenage and the mutant part into it midway through. And it's admirable that it ended up mediocre, but I do think that there was more that could have been achieved. And I wonder, I would be curious because I've not done a lot of research into the production of this movie in case. I understand that you have quite some notes on that. So I'm excited to learn the lore, as it were, for the behind the scenes production. But this, to me feels very symptomatic of the early 2000 teens nerd culture has not quite been embraced by the mainstream yet.

14:23
Sophia
And I would say that the Ninja Turtles, while very popular, still kind of play on that, like, childish, nerdy nostalgia that hadn't quite been forcibly injected into us through years of the MCU and every other property getting a new version. And so this movie feels at once like it needs the name, it needs the IP in order to be made. Otherwise it would be a completely forgettable alien invasion movie of some kind, while at the same time being completely and utterly ashamed that it is a Ninja Turtles movie and wanting to obfuscate that fact as much as possible. And so there's a lot of weird justifications added in both to just make the plot work and also to justify why there are Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

15:09
Sophia
I think a good example of this for me is there's the whole plot line where April, these are her Turtles, and her dad was working in a lab with Ax and Shredder. And then that's the origin of the Turtles. That's where the ooze comes from. She investigates all of this and just finds it all out in the years in the future when the Turtles reappear as their big Teenage Mutant crime fighting vigilante themselves. And just so much of that, I was like, we don't need any of that justification. If you were unashamed to be making a Ninja Turtles movie, you would just say, ooze spilled in a. There was a freak. A canister of ooze fell out of the back of the truck and spilled, and now there's four mutant turtles and a rat.

15:47
Sophia
And instead, we have to have enormous amounts of plot time dedicated to a very boring, complex, kind of confusing justification for how these guys can even exist and why April specifically is involved with them when it's just like that. Buy in would not be necessary if you fully commit to just owning what you are. Right. I feel like they just ashamed to be a Turtles movie. And that's a fundamental flaw of the movie that I don't know how you fix that Besides being made 20 years later or 20 years earlier. But yeah, it's so symptomatic of the 2010s.

16:23
Case
Yeah. I mean, if you compare this with the Transformers movies, you can see the lifeblood, or at least the same thought process going into those where they were kind of ashamed that they were doing Transformers stuff until all the money was being made, at which point they were like, oh, I guess. Well, I guess we should have some sort of statutory rape joke in there. But Aside from that, like, we're okay with The Transformers stuff. Transformers 4.

16:50
Sam
That's its new tagline, huh?

16:53
Case
Yeah, it's the thing people remember about it. They have a long.

16:56
Sophia
A long.

16:57
Case
Yeah, like close up on the whole Texas law about like, oh, you can be a minor just because, you know, anyway, gross world that we live in. And the creators. But. But I feel like that is a similar scenario of. I mean, for one thing, these are the last hurrah of the orange and teal years of moviemaking where everything was color corrected up the wazoo to being like super bright orange skin, super teal skies, like everything somewhere in between there. Which admittedly pops in a way that like the MCU movies which have like way flatter color correction don't. So that's kind of nice to see when you're not used to seeing it all the time. But you know, it's burns your eyes and at the same time it's like, okay, we got to. We got to focus on a human character.

17:40
Case
And that's why we're focusing on April in this movie in a way that like, you just don't like as much. And why, like ultimately, even though, like they stunt cast Leonardo with Johnny Knoxville, like it ends up being Raphael who gets like all the spotlight in this movie in ways where I'm like, okay, so he's Wolverine now and he's. And being Wolverine, he's become so popular that the movie's basically about him at this point. Like, it's a movie where they don't trust the audience to actually buy in on the premise. And so they over explain everything and do. Including why we should care about these.

18:17
Sam
Characters, which is wild because it's already a very popular ip. Like I guess they assumed that the third Ninja Turtle movie has like killed it off, but like that's not true. Like, there's so much more that happened afterwards. Cartoons and everything else. Like, and movies. TMNT came out. Yeah.

18:38
Sophia
TMNT 2007 did get us the actual release.

18:42
Case
I saw that in theaters.

18:44
Sophia
Yes.

18:44
Case
On a date.

18:48
Sam
So there's no reason for them to feel like they need to, I don't know, feel do the walk of shame of in this.

18:58
Sophia
Or.

18:59
Sam
Or I think maybe there's like also this is also this era where the. The 2010s that was the. The area that this came in where there was a little bit of like, okay, we're gonna do this and we're do it again, but. But we're going to make it different somehow. And Those differences were either, like, harder or weirder or. And so, like, going, aliens. It was like, okay, well, like, we had, like, four movies, so, like, what if this time? And then, like, it just didn't work. Like, it's not like it's something that's not going to be accepting to make them a bunch of aliens from space. I remember when people were talking about that, like. Like, what the fuck is wrong with these guys? Like, why would they do.

19:43
Sam
Like, the turtles already have a perfect origin story and it's been told so many times over. Adorable. Sometimes, like, shadow, like, you know, storyline telling. Like, why would you challenge this? You know, like, what's necessary about that? I mean, like, there's just a lot that, like, I think that this era of movies was, like, trying to do, like, oh, like, we're going to reboot it, but we're going to change it so it doesn't feel like it's the same. But, like, sometimes people just want. They just want the characters to be who they are. They just want to see the characters again in something a little bit different. Not so different that you're changing everything about them.

20:28
Case
Yeah, it's giving me the same. But different is what we're looking for here. And this movie started off going too far, and then when they rashed it back, there was still too much of that initial, like, overreach baked into this movie. And. And again, the not trusting the audience, which is why you can see that when we get to the second one, like, whatever you have to say about Turtles out of the Shadows, it's fucking fun.

20:52
Sophia
It's a much more fun movie. I think, like, the biggest sin for me that a movie can commit is being boring. Because even if they're bad, usually you can get something out of it if you're having a good time or you're engaging with it in some way. And. And this movie, to me, is boring because it takes a really long time to really get to anything Ninja Turtle. Y. And it's a lot of very generic action movie staples and specifically very generic Michael Bay action movie staples. I know he's not the director on it, but, like, producer, you know, it has his. You can feel his touch throughout.

21:21
Case
His fingerprints are all over this. Like, it's shot like a Michael Bay movie. Like, it's shot so much like one that, like, it's hard to watch it and be like, this isn't Bay directing.

21:30
Sophia
Yeah, it's. It's crazy. But it's just this movie's fundamentally very boring. And you have what has been more or less lab engineered to be the coolest, most entertaining four heroes in all of comics and then cartoons, because they're. They're teenagers, they're mutants, they're ninjas, and they're turtles, famously. They're, you know, lab engineered to be this cool set of heroes. Eastman and Laird in the comics, and now you've created a movie where they are the least interesting thing on screen in an already uninteresting world. And not for nothing, but it takes, like, half the runtime of the movie before we ever really get the turtles talking, interacting with April, interacting with each other. They're kind of just this shadowy vigilante that April's investigating for a good portion of the runtime, and then it's just kind of all action through the end.

22:20
Sophia
So you don't even get to let these characters, like, breathe and maybe show off what could have been a very cool interpretation of them. Let people see the turtles that you had to wrestle back into some sort of mold at some point.

22:33
Case
Yeah, yeah, it does take a little while. Sorry, Go.

22:36
Sam
No, I was thinking just before we move on, the shame factor. I think that the point in the movie, because now that I'm thinking about it, that really symbolizes the shame factor that the filmmakers had in making this was when it's like towards the end and Raphael gives permission to Michelangelo to say that thing he used to say that he wasn't allowed to say, and he says, cowabunga. And honestly, like, I think that's like Sophia's whole thesis, like, wrapped up in one moment.

23:06
Sophia
He would never need permission to say cowabunga. Mikey should be constantly saying cowabunga. And to his credit in the sequels, near constantly. That man is talking, so you can't take that from him.

23:20
Sam
Like. Like, honestly, like, it's so, like, the filmmakers being like, okay, audience, we'll give you one. You know, like, so. And yeah. So I think that moment sums up. And now we can go on to case going, yeah, it does. It is a little April centric right in the beginning without too much.

23:40
Case
Yeah, well, what I was going to say is that, like, what's interesting about it is that it's a decompression of pretty similar beats to the original Ninja Turtles movie, which I hold up as being just, like, a perfect movie. So, like, the fact that we're doing similar beats is, by itself, not the end of the world. But, yeah, it takes a really long time to get to the turtle stuff, and we spend so much time with that sort of April centric element. Now, some of that there is this, like, weird mea culpa that, like, that she's doing that Megan Fox is doing in response to basically getting fired off the Transformers movies for not the worst things in the world, but comparing Michael Bay to being a Nazi and then Steven Spielberg finding out about that and trying to blacklist her.

24:23
Case
So, yes, there's the sequence where she's just jumping on a trampoline. Just feels like, oh, this is here. Because, yes, it's sexist as hell. And they're commenting on how it's sexist as hell in the movie. And it feels like Megan Fox is just like, yep, I'm here because I need my career back. There's just a lot of the. Like that opening arc of the movie. It kind of reminds me of how Shia LaBeouf's character is in the third Transformers movie, where it feels like it's just a mouthpiece for Michael Bay. Like, it's a little too autobiographical in that respect. Megan Fox here is being living out her actual blacklisting in Hollywood and trying to fight her way back into some kind of notoriety. And we kind of get this in the form of this undervalued reporter, right?

25:15
Sam
Use it, kid. It's your life.

25:19
Sophia
But like you said, this is very similar in beats to the first 90s movie, and I think that's not fundamentally a problem. But you also mentioned it's very bloated. Right? They're just kind of stretching all those beats out. And I think that in particular with the April o' Neill character, it's not that's a bad arc for the character to have, but this worst executed version of it. You know, you get like, Megan Fox. You know, I don't want to not be a girls here, but I don't think that she's the strongest performer in the world to carry any sort of complication with the character. So regardless of how reflective it is of her lived experience, she's not super convincing as an actress to, like, pull off the nuances of it well.

26:00
Case
And she also doesn't seem super invested in this movie.

26:02
Sophia
She also doesn't seem super invested in this movie. So it just sort of like tacks on more layers of difficulty to get us into what is already kind of a long, boring sequence. But then also the April o' Neil character, what she's being given to doesn't seem to be a very good reporter. Like, she doesn't know how to turn the sound and flash off on her cell phone when she Takes pictures. What are you doing? I know that this was newer cell phone technology in the 2010s that, you know, but we could still turn the volume off. You know, you could turn the flash off. There's a lot of moments where I'm like, yeah, Honestly, I don't know how she still has this reporting job just based on the scene she's been written to have.

26:40
Sophia
And we have to spend so long, frustratingly watching her bumble through being a reporter who wants to do more serious reporting, but seems to not have the skills or spend any of her actual time during the day at her job, doing the investigations that she could be doing like this, because she's always doing these extracurricular moments, running around, and it just becomes very frustrating because we know that there's a good version of this that exists. We've seen it. It's in the 90s movie. So it's just so frustrating that it's bloated and boring and a little bit incompetent here.

27:14
Sam
Yeah. Her professional life is really difficult to watch. She runs into a room, and she goes into the room with everyone there to talk about the things that she saw without any kind of evidence or sources or anything. And then she's shocked that people think she's off her rocker. Like, I. There's nothing skeptical like this. This April believes that people will believe her no matter what. And there's, you know, just, like, a naivete that I don't really think that a lot of reporters have, because they're. They're usually people who question things. And, like, she's just kind of like. But, guys, I said. And it's. I don't know. It's really awkward. It's really weird.

28:04
Sam
And I feel like the scenes with Whoopi Goldberg, like, yelling at her, like, it just feels like they took moments out of a Spider man movie and just, like, tried to, like, rewrite them. Like, just chop them up, rewrite them, put them in there, and then you yell at her and you send her home, and it's just. I don't know. It's. It's not great. It's not great.

28:27
Case
No, Definitely not great. Definitely not great. When we're talking about this movie. Like, somehow they wasted Whoopi Goldberg in this movie.

28:35
Sam
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I mean, listen, Whoopi's probably. She's fine because she got paid, like, you know, but, yeah, it is a waste. It is. Absolutely. She's doing as much as she can with what they've given her.

28:49
Case
Let's talk For a minute about. Well, before we pivot fully into, like, things that we actually liked about this movie, why don't we just talk in general about the character designs for the Turtles? Because I don't like them.

29:00
Sophia
Oh, God. Thank you. I don't like them.

29:02
Sam
No, do not. Do not like how they look at all.

29:05
Sophia
They have human teeth. I don't.

29:08
Sam
No, no.

29:09
Case
I mean, I like that there's, like, physiological differences between them. Like, there. There's. It's good to. To sort of, like, accentuate that. I think they go so over the top with things like Donnie's like, accoutrement. Like, it's just. There's too much going for him and for all of them. I think, like, Leonardo is probably the closest to fine in this because he's sort of like the base turtle that they, like, kind of do variations off of for everyone else. But, yeah, like, the turtle design, like, it's weird that they're giants. Like, that's. Traditionally, the Turtles are small like that. That's just, like, a part of, like, who they are in. In all their lore. Like, there's no version of the Turtles, except for this, where they're taller than a normal person. It's crazy that they're bulletproof. You know, it's crazy.

29:52
Case
You know, it's crazy that they are so goddamn tough that they're able just to, like, rip apart cars, and it's not a big deal. Like, it kind of warps the whole, like, curve of, like. For one thing, it de. Emphasizes their skills, which is frustrating. Now, why they have those skills are also a problem in this movie because, like, fuck the Ninja Manual thing. Like, I appreciate, like, the idea of it, and it's not too far afield from what they did in Mutant Mayhem, so it can be done well, but it just, like, comes up so late where it's like, wait, you're ninjas? Because you read a training manual and that's it.

30:28
Sophia
Very silly beat to be hitting in what has been trying to convince us is a very serious movie where things would never happen unrealistically. Ignore the giant Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles over in the corner. But, like, it works immune mayhem because that's fundamentally a very goofy movie. You know, like, they're embracing the silliness inherent in adapting, you know, a Saturday morning cartoon. And this movie creates these giant monstrosities who are definitely not teens. Right. We're all on the same page. And those are not teenagers anymore.

30:56
Sam
They don't really teens at all.

30:59
Case
No, Johnny Knoxville does not sound like a Teenager?

31:02
Sophia
No, none of them really do. But it presents these serious monsters, and then it gives us an incredibly silly reason that they are all doing ninjutsu in the biggest possible air quotes. But still, it just feels discordant with what this movie wants us to buy into. And it's moments like that where it's like, oh, you tried to pepper back in the turtles lore or a version of the turtles people might recognize. And instead, what just ends up rising to the forefront is the horrifying monstrosities with way too many doodads hanging off of their shells in any given shot. And again, I really can't emphasize this enough. I really hate their human teeth. Just. It's fine. I don't need to have them be biologically perfect. We don't need to give these turtles teeth. I didn't need to know that.

31:48
Sophia
I don't like it whenever they smile at me on screen. It's really upsetting.

31:52
Case
Yeah.

31:54
Sam
I was thinking about.

31:55
Case
They are grotesque. Yeah.

31:56
Sam
Yeah. I was thinking about how the Sonic creators got bullied into creating a better Sonic. This movie needed some people to bully.

32:09
Case
Well, I think it did, though. That's the. That is the crazy part about it. Like, they. They got bullied a lot. It's just there was so much to bully them about that, like, only so many things gave.

32:18
Sam
I mean, I'll be honest. I did not see this movie in theaters because I hated how. I hated the design so much of the Turtles. I refused to actually. And I love the Ninja Turtles, and I refused to go to the movie theater and pay to see this movie. I months for it to come out before I could watch it because I refuse to go see these ugly turtles in theater. That's how strongly I feel about 30.

32:48
Case
That is fair. You know, I don't remember if I saw this one in theaters or not. It's. It's like a weird black hole because, like, when it came out, like, it was around when I was, like, moving away from New York, and I just don't remember if I saw this one. Like, I. Like. Like, I remember seeing two. I remember seeing out of the Shadows in theaters because I was the only person in that theater. But I don't have a distinct memory of seeing this one. And, like, it's really weird because, like, I must have seen this before I saw out of the Shadows, but I have no recollection of when I first saw it.

33:20
Sophia
I distinctly remember seeing the trailer for this in theaters. But honestly, I couldn't tell you if I sat my butt down in a seat and watched the movie proper, or if I rented that from a Blockbuster afterwards, there's. There's no way to know the answer to that question. Actually, Blockbuster might not have been around when this movie came out anyway. There's no way to know the answer to that question. We can't look that up. I don't want to feel any older.

33:37
Case
So beyond the turtle designs, it has this knock on effect of like, okay, well, how do you make the turtle fight interesting when they are so hulkish in their capabilities? And so the solution of that is to give the foot just a bunch of guns and to give Shredder a giant fucking mech suit, which is like, probably, like, there's problems, but there's like. It's like one of those things where, like, the faults of the movie are kind of counterbalanced by the faults of the movie. Like, we're in a scenario where, like, Shredder at least is an engaging foe for them because he's so fast and so big and he's got like all these, like, magnetic blades and so forth. So that there's at least some interesting fight choreography because of that. But at the same time, like, fuck, Shredder shouldn't be a giant mechanic.

34:23
Case
Like, that's not the point of the character.

34:26
Sophia
And not for nothing, but like, something that's always really impressive to me is like, martial arts on screen, right? It's doing a magic trick in the same way that, like, the dancing in An American in Paris is movie magic, right? That's someone doing an incredible physical performance on screen. So as goofy and also very good as a lot of the 90s suits look. The end of the day, whenever there's an action sequence, even when it's silly, that's still a person in there doing an incredible feat of stunt work in a lot of. A lot of foam that I can't imagine makes it eas. And so that's impressive to watch. Whereas here, no matter how complicated they get with the fight choreography, it kind of just turns into CGI mush after a point because there's so many unbelievable, unreal pieces moving around.

35:07
Sophia
So, like Shredder's this giant mech, and it's like, yeah, maybe there would be something cool to that at some point to counterbalance these, like, giant turtles that are hurling, you know, pieces of concrete around or whatever it is. But because there's 10,000 individual little blades on him all moving around, and the turtles have the texture of my nightmares on all of their. Their turtle skin, it just Becomes this wash of like. It's like a pointillist painting on the screen. And I can't really zone in on any one thing to see the picture. And so the action kind of loses any interesting choreography men have had. And I think a big problem with that is, like, they're just simply not real. Nothing I'm seeing is real or tangible.

35:44
Sophia
And it's not working in the way that sometimes it kind of works for some of the Transformers movies because there's so many, like, technological pieces. You kind of want that greebling effect. This is a turtle. Turtles should not be greebled.

35:56
Case
Yeah, yeah, 100% on that one. You know, like the. The Jim Henson suits from the original movie were so impressive. And, you know, like they did the under cranking on the filming so that the action sequences, when they actually played it at full speed, looked a lot faster. And like, that's really cool in that regard. Like, they did a lot to make it look like martial artists. And like you said, it's just CGI slop at a certain point, which is crazy that we have like action stars like Alan Risson playing parts as the suit actor. Like, not just the voice.

36:27
Sophia
Yeah. You know, there is some talent behind it that could potentially do some really interesting things in fight sequences specifically. And even if you're going to make it, you know, a 2010s pseudo militaristic, the foot got guns now. You know, everyone is like just throwing tanks across the screen fight sequence, which I don't really associate with the Ninja Turtles. But hey, if that's the direction you're going to go, commit to it. You can still add elements of tangible performance to that make it good to watch and fun to watch. But the more layers you add to anyone who might be a human actor in the movie, like Shredder in particular comes to mind with the mech suit. You're just hiding all of that human element, that movie magic further and further below a layer of impenetrable whirling Shredder blades.

37:11
Sophia
He should have three blades, these Wolverine style on his fingers. And anything more is like way too crazy. You. You're hiding the core trait that makes him identifiably Shredder. And you've just made. You've put over another robot. Congratulations, Michael Bay. You put another robot on screen.

37:26
Case
Yeah, it looks so. It looks so much like the Transformers or like the Silver Samurai in the Wolverine movie.

37:31
Sam
Yeah, yeah, I like. Yeah, it was too soon for a souped up Shredder like that. Right. Like, like, I, in the grand scheme of things, I think whenever you're talking about like a standing franchise that is going to re up itself, I always feel like, let's take it slow, guys. Let's, let's start at page one again. Like, if we're gonna start an origin story. Like, I want my bad guys to like, level up with my good guys, so I don't want to see. I mean, although our good guys are a little super leveled in this one too, but I, I, I would want to see the growth. I mean, where are we going to build to? Like, if you're trying to rebuild this franchise and make lots and lots of movies. What, why is he in a mech suit? Like, build up to that.

38:25
Sam
That can be three. And we can go now. Now the series has jumped the shark and now he's in a mech suit now. How could you be like, what's the third? We had to up the ante and they've got put him up so many times. He's part robot now. Fine, fine. Then I believe it. I believe it at that point. Right? The resurrection. Where's the first movie? It's too soon, Michael Bay. It's too soon. You rush into things.

38:47
Case
Yeah. I mean, like, there's like, again, part of that is that they had to be able to compete with the Turtles. But like, also part of that is you can see the bones of the shittier movie that this almost was with like William Fichner being Eric Sacks being the Shredder.

39:03
Sam
Right.

39:03
Case
And needing to have some sort of compelling reason that he would be able to fight someone so powerful as the Turtles. Like, even if the Turtles weren't as tremendously like, souped up as they are in this one, like, seriously, they remind me of like when Eric Larson did like a run of Ninja Turtle stuff, tying him Savage Dragon, where they had like mutant suits on or something like, it's just like some of the weirdest versions. Like the Turtles have had lots of weird powered up versions. Like there's a Super Sentai version of them where they had mechs.

39:31
Sophia
Yeah.

39:32
Case
And, and there was like the crazy mutation form in the original cartoon series that ran during the Red sky seasons. Like that we're not unused to the Turtles having these crazy mutations. But Sam, like you said, like, level the characters up. Like, Super Shredder at the end of Turtles 2 was a wasted potential, but, like, he needed to be the end of turtles 2 at best, the end of this movie, but we should have been seeing Shredder for a while. Be not super Shredder. Like, if he had to break out the cyber suit because he's dealing with these guys, like, cool. But, like, we should have seen him not be that way for a good chunk of the movie.

40:07
Case
That said, for a thing that I like about this movie, I actually rather like the Splinter fight with Shredder because they do a good job of, like, there's interesting fight choreography going on with it, and they make Splinter kind of a badass, which is, like, kind of fun. Sophia, you're looking at me like I'm crazy.

40:22
Sophia
No, no, I think it's. It's the closest fight to something that I really enjoy of the choreography. This is maybe the snowboarding sequence, because I can't take that from these movies. They're pretty good at, like, downhill chase or downriver chase. They're fun sequences, but, like, you know, I think Splinter gets to show off, which is cool. It's the fight where they introduce the most ninjutsu type choreography somehow, because, you know, that's Splinter's whole deal. I do, having now seen the mutant mayhem Splinter sequence where he enters the milking room and beats up all the goons. And it's kind of a great animated version of Jackie Chan choreography. That's such a good sequence. And also keeping in mind the 90s splinter puppet just being something that I have so much fondness for.

41:06
Sophia
There was something about this constantly wet rat that I didn't really like looking at. But that said, for as little of the movie as he's in, I do think that this sequence is one of the better moments. So the look on my face was more like, man, that Splinter puppet is such a perfect thing. Let me. Oh, no. Who got it wet for this movie? It was my train of thoughts more so than disagreeing with the point.

41:32
Case
It kind of makes me think I forget the name of the finale movie. It might have been Turtles out of Time. I forget the name of it. It's. It's not that.

41:39
Sam
The.

41:40
Case
The finale of the 2003 Ninja Turtle series where they cross over with the 80s series.

41:44
Sophia
Yes.

41:44
Case
And when they do, they cross. When they go to the 80s series, they. They note that, oh, what's nice is Splinter is always Splinter. And there is that element here as well. Like, Tony Schlub is fine as Splinter in. In this movie. And, like, I, you know, everything is over the top. Michael Bay. So, like, the. The punitive punishments that they do where it's like, okay, you have to balance on weird shit. While I, like, taunt you is top than the, like, the 10 flips from, like, turtles two. But, like, you know, it's still in the same ballpark of, like, okay, it's kind of interesting. And I actually really enjoy him teasing them with pizza. Like, I think that was a lot of fun, where he's just, like, listing down all the different cheeses that are on the pizza.

42:24
Sophia
That's very turtley. That's a great goofy kind of gag that you can get into these movies without, like, losing the core of what they are. It really works.

42:32
Case
You know what's weird, though, when. When they actually kidnap all the turtles except for Raphael, because Raphael's Wolverine, and he gets to be the star of this movie, they don't take Splinter. And I keep being like, wait, wouldn't they want the rat?

42:43
Sophia
Like, he's got ooze in him, too. What are you doing?

42:46
Case
He's also mammal. He's not just azused. He's closer related to humans. Like, if nothing else, you would want to see what's the difference between the rat and the turtles and what's the common. You know, like, what is the common element between them, but also test mice. Test rats. Like, we don't test this stuff on turtles. We test this stuff on rats, like, because they're. They're closer to us.

43:09
Sophia
Yeah.

43:10
Sam
All right. Their brains are left closer.

43:13
Sophia
It makes sense. If you're thinking of it in, like, the turtles lore, Splinter and Shredder often head to head in whether it's because Shredder killed splinter's previous owner or because they're, like, reincarnated versions of previous rivals from ancient feudal Japan or whatever. Whatever version of it is because Splinter and Shredder are kind of two sides of the same coin. They wanted to keep that. It feels like, in the way that Shredder's like, I'm gonna beat up your rat dad, guys, and then he's gonna be out of commission for the movie, While not actually taking into consideration the plot that they'd set up previously, which is, you know, the rat and these turtles are lab animals that all had been mutated by the same experiment that April had freed, all at the same time.

43:54
Sophia
So, like, why would sacks not want to take all of them in? Why would you know why? Just logically, any of that makes sense, and it kind of starts to fall apart when you look at it too long.

44:04
Case
Yeah, well, the whole movie falls apart.

44:06
Sophia
When you look at any of the movie is a shambling mound held together with, like, a nunchuck in a dream.

44:12
Case
I know, like, the snowboarding scene is by itself fine, but the fact that it's supposed to be right outside New York City in the summertime.

44:21
Sophia
This is maybe my biggest problem with the movie, in all seriousness. And I made this joke in every episode of TurtleMania. But the fifth Ninja Turtles character is the city of New York. It's sex and the city rules made manifest. And to put so much of this movie not in New York City, to be in this, like, upstate New York estate on this outside of New York City mountain that exists, that connects to the sewer system. That connects to the sewer system. It's such a fundamental flaw of the movie. Like, you are taking these characters out of the habitat. That is a huge part of why they are the way they are. They're not just any teens. They're New York City teens. They're born and raised in the five boroughs. Like, that's so core to them.

45:07
Sophia
And it's eminent in these characters in the way that they're dressed up and the way that they talk, the slang that they use. But it's just the movie cannot stand to be set on a New York City street for more than five seconds. Also, I'm not convinced that they ever location scouted more than a single building between this and the sequel, because every single interior hallway looks exactly the same, regardless of what building they're supposed to be in.

45:31
Case
And both conclude with a big rooftop fight. Yeah, it appears to be the same rooftop.

45:35
Sophia
They must have gotten a great day rate on that place.

45:38
Sam
I will also say turtles blended very well in snow. It's a very good camouflage. That is, like, definitely a place that a giant. Literally, a giant Mutant Ninja Turtle can hide.

45:51
Sophia
Yeah.

45:52
Sam
Snowy mountains of state New York in the middle of summer.

45:57
Case
But again, not the actual sequence. Pretty good. It has a fastball special in there. Like, there. There are some good moments in, like, the. The downhill, like, snowboarding sequence. Like, enjoy that. Like, I. I don't want too much on my favorite scene in the movie. Well, actually, not my favorite scene in the movie. My favorite scene in the movie is the elevator when they're coming up and they start riffing with each other. Because that's kind of fun because all of them start riffing. It's the most teenage they are in the entire movie.

46:22
Sophia
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's the one moment where I'm like, oh, okay, someone does understand what a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle is. They haven't forgotten the teenage entirely. Is that elevator sequence. It's unfortunate that it's in the last 20 minutes of the movie, but still it's there. But, yeah, I think to get back to what Sam said earlier about how you have to ramp up to these kind of genre breaking or world breaking things like Shredder getting the mech suit, you can ramp up to having the turtles leave New York City. We see this in the sequel where they spend most of the movie in New York City. And then they take a brief interlude down to the rainforest to have their little river chase with Bebop and Rocksteady. And then we get back to New York. It all ties back.

47:02
Sophia
It feels very earned when they leave, and it feels like it's important that they leave. Whereas here I'm like, I've barely seen them in the city up to this point because they're in so little of the movie prior to the snowboarding scene, so. And so much of the movie after the snowboarding scene is kind of still involved in this, like, mansion that's not in. It's somewhere ambiguously in New York City. In New York, Upstate New York. Excuse me. That. It just feels unearned. Like, I'm like, no, I'm not done with the New York City Ninja Turtles yet. Why have we abandoned them to send them on this ski excursion? As cool as the sequence is, it's still, like, a little bit jarring to be taken out of the setting that you expect like that.

47:45
Case
Yeah. At most they should have been in Yonkers. Like, they went too far away.

47:50
Sophia
Yeah. I want to see them on more New York City landmarks. And in the sequel, when they hang out in the big Jumbotron at the top of Madison Square Garden and they drop the pizza. That's so fun. I love seeing my boys in some classic New York landmarks. Have them hang out on the Statue of Liberty more. You know, make them hang out in Central Park. I don't know, go crazy, throw them on the top of the Empire State Building. But like, the. The unrecognizable Ambiguous Lab with a mountain somewhere upstate New York just doesn't seem to add anything to the movie other than giving them an excuse to do a sledding, skateboarding, snowboarding sequence, which just put them back in the sewers. There's all those tubes down there. We love doing that stuff.

48:31
Case
I mean, right after this, the snowboarding scene, that it, like, raced through the sewers in the same kind of way. Yeah. I will say watching the snowboarding scene made me realize that this movie is trying to be an adaptation of just the video games. Like, that sequence would just be straight out of a video game. And most of the fights feel like they could just be in a video game. Even my favorite sequence being the elevator. Elevator stage in a video game like that. Like, this is a fairly decent attempt at putting on screen sequences that would have been in a turtles arcade game. But they don't do anything to, like, make it make sense. And it has as much narrative through line as all that, where it's like, oh, April's apartment's on fire up.

49:10
Case
Shredder's gonna steal her away, and we're gonna chase her into the sewers by way of fighting Bebop and Rocksteady.

49:15
Sophia
They do a lot of combos. You know, you've alluded to the fastball special, but there is a lot of. Let's hit a big move to another move, as though someone were typing in the Konami code or something in a video game in the sequence.

49:27
Case
Yeah. What are other things that we like about this movie?

49:31
Sophia
I'm just gonna posit that I don't hate Will Arnett. I think that's, you know, if you're gonna have the cameraman tag along character, he's about as fine as you could hope for. I don't think it's his funniest role of all time, But I don't think I was ever upset that he was in a scene, which I think is a positive for the characters. And is it this or the sequel where he goes to pull? No, it's the sequel. He has a great scene in the sequel where he pulls a wire out of the wall and it rips all the way around. And I'm like, no. Audio, visual, professional, whatever. Start with the wire and just start pulling. But. But I think he's a fun character.

50:04
Sophia
You know, it's a little bit tired to have everyone immediately see April o' Neil and be like, oh, my God, the hottest woman who's ever existed. I must flirt with her. But other than that, he provides an interesting human friend for the Turtles, and it's fun to see him kind of just roll with the punches whenever they pop up and be like, all right, yeah, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Got it. Let me drive the van up to this upstate New York mansion.

50:26
Sam
Yeah, I do like when they destroyed his car at the end, too. Yeah, that was a funny button. I thought that was nice. I thought he just. He just let us know that it was a new car. And then, oops, Accident. Oh, that's a. That's a fun Teenage messed up with the experiments that Donatello built into this car that we don't know the buttons for. Irresponsible moment. Liked that. I liked Mikey just pressing buttons like he would, getting everyone into trouble. You think, oh, damn, that's a fire under a bridge. I hope someone knows it's happening and comes to put it out, because they just seem to drive away. But, you know, I've already watched this whole movie, so all my beliefs and all of the reason that has been in my head doesn't matter at that point.

51:17
Sam
Oh, I also like that Ross, you know, expresses emotion.

51:22
Sophia
Yeah.

51:22
Sam
You know, lets his brothers know he cares about him.

51:26
Case
Yeah. His impassioned speech at the end there. Again, I like Alan Ritchson a lot. Like, I like. I've been a big fan of his ever since Blue Mountain State.

51:35
Sophia
Tbt.

51:36
Case
Going back to some throwback, some crass comedy for the character actor. But I think he, like, he's a big old nerd who really likes doing nerdy properties. Like, he's been in a shitload of comic book stuff. Like, he was in Smallville. He was in. He was in Titans as Hawk, and he's Raphael in the Ninja Turtles movie. Like that. That's a pretty good track record for being a nerd and being, like, the type of actor that I'm like, oh, yeah. I could see enjoying him on more stuff, and I enjoy the way he delivers the character. Raph is not my favorite turtle, but I think they do a good job with Raph in this movie. My favorite turtle is Leonardo.

52:16
Sophia
For the record, I'm a Raph girlie. He's my favorite turtle, and I do think this is a good Raph. It's not the best Raph of all time, but the problem is not Alan Richardson's performance. It's just kind of the generic writing of the movie. I think Alan's a perfectly serviceable and at times, very good Raph. I think that he does a lot. I like his delivery of a lot of lines that they give him. And like, Sam mentioned the speech at the end. It's nice to see him be heartfelt. That's the classic Raph arc, is that he goes solo when him and Leo butt heads, and then he comes back because his family brings him together. It's the loner strike now on their own.

52:47
Sophia
It's the 2007 TMNT movie to a T. And this is not quite fully that, but it's still elements of that classic Raph loner arc as he gets left behind when the others get captured. And I think Alan Richardson's a good casting for that. I think it's maybe my favorite casting in the movie. Just looking at the lineup of who's doing what, I think he's the one that fits the role the best and is the one who I'm like, oh, I'd like to see you reprise that.

53:12
Sam
That.

53:13
Case
Yeah, I didn't need to see Johnny Knoxville reprise that, for the record, and I'm glad that he didn't.

53:18
Sophia
I can't imagine how they got him to do this the first time, frankly.

53:21
Case
I imagine that the part was very different when he signed up for it because, like, he is underused in this movie, which, like, not. Not that he's, like, good in this movie or, like, appropriate for Leonardo, but, like, he doesn't actually say that much. Like, he's just a relatively minor character. Sam, here's a question for you. Which is your favorite turtle, and how does it. Like, how does Raphael feel in this movie?

53:43
Sam
Oh, you know what? This is. This is very difficult for me because I am kind of like an OT4. Like, I love them all a lot, very respectable, and people are like, oh, can that be possible? It's like, well, because they all have their strengths and, like. And I think at different points in my life, I have had different turtles as my favorite, because I think, like, when you're younger, like, when I was younger, Michelangelo, because he was, like, funny, and he was like, you know, he. He kind of always lightened the mood, and I'm more of an optimist. So, like, when I was a kid, he was more my favorite.

54:21
Sam
But then when I got older, I was between a Raph and a Donatello in my teenage years because I was just like, oh, like, the hyper fixations that Donatello gets into, like, I got that. That spoke to me. And then when I was older, I.

54:34
Case
Was like, an autistic queen. Yeah, Yeah.

54:37
Sam
I was like, maybe it's Leonardo. Like, maybe. Maybe. Like, maybe, like, all that pressure and responsibility, like, I kind of get that as the eldest daughter, Like, I do. I do understand, like, hurting the crowd and kind of stuff like that. So I think in. In my lifetime, every turtle has, like, kind of spoken to me at this point, so they thought I just kind of love them all a lot. And yes, Raph is probably the best cast in this movie. I have to agree with Sophia on that. And I really liked Mikey in this. I actually really like Donatello, too. I mean, yes, he's got a lot of stuff on him, but, like, Fits in with, like, this crazy, like, hyper fixation kind of thing.

55:22
Sam
Like, I don't mind, because I feel like maybe he put some goggles on his head and forgot they were there and then added other stuff to it. So, like, it, like, to me, I'm like, yeah, this fits with who you are. And it's actually my. The thing I hate the least about his character design, which is hilarious because you were like a creature mutts. And I was like, you know, that feels very Donatello to me. Like, I. I used to work stick pencils in my hair all the time or pens in my hair. And it got to the point that at one time, this. I was working in a shop, and we had a customer to sign. This is what customers used to actually sign receipts. And they had to sign their receipt, and no one could find any pens.

56:08
Sam
But they were all in my hair. I look sized different pens on my collar. They, like, grabs my head. I just pinch you out and handed one to the woman and was like, stop doing it. And I'm like, oh, I just. I didn't want to lose them. And he's like, but did you know where they were? And I was like, no, I don't. I didn't know they were there because I was searching for a pen to give her. So, yeah, I. I would say, like, for me, in this movie, right. We don't really get a lot of. Leonardo's very underused. Donatello's kind of underused. I mean, like, he says some stuff, and he, like, pops up. You need some tech. Sad. But the turtles themselves are not really that well fleshed out.

56:55
Sam
It really becomes the Raphael show with, like, sprinkling of humor or inappropriate hitting on, like, some sexual harassment from Michelangelo. That's basically what this movie is. And so it's kind of weird. So in this film specifically, it's still Raphael, because this movie, it's just. It's his movie. It's not really the Ninja Turtles movies. It's his movie. Yeah. And after him, it'd be failed. After him, it would be Splinter in this movie, then the other turtles. That's how I feel. Kind of they go in my liking, you know, of how they're portrayed and what they do on screen.

57:44
Case
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's totally fair that in this movie, Raphael's the strongest one. It is his movie, as you said, and as we've circled around, so it's appropriate that he gets a lot of the good scenes. Meanwhile, Michelangelo is. I hate how he's written as, like, this Crazy horn dog.

58:04
Sam
I hate it.

58:04
Case
It's creepy. It's the worst version of it. Like, he's been horny for April in the past, but usually it's like puppy dog love. This is like, the only one where I'm like. Like, that's kind of gross.

58:13
Sophia
Yeah, it plays on the classic. Sam. Sorry. Please.

58:17
Sam
No, no. Go, go. I was disagreeing.

58:19
Sophia
Yeah, yeah, it plays on the classic, like, role for Mikey in these movies, because usually when they're going to give a character, one of the turtles an arc, it's going to be either Leo or Raph. And then Donnie and Mikey kind of have to, like, fight for secondary importance. And the way they usually do that for Mikey, because he does not do machines. He's the party dude is. They have him spelt endless quips to varying levels of success. And it feels like what is funny to this movie is just constant harassment of April o'. Neil. But that is not funny to me, a member of the audience. And so it just makes me dislike Michelangelo, which, if you're getting to the point, people are disliking. Michelangelo, you have created a fundamental flaw with your Ninja Turtles.

58:59
Case
Yeah, the Turtles are not teenagers in this, but the maturity of the people making it are.

59:05
Sophia
Yeah, but no, it's distracting and annoying. And it's maybe my least favorite writing decision, even though I've said so many writing decisions I did not like, so far, it's the one that I can't.

59:19
Case
I did want to ask you this one. So one thing that I'm not a huge fan of in the second one is the portrayal of Casey Jones. But I know that you're a Die Hard Casey Jones fan. Would you rather have this movie be no Casey Jones or Casey Jones from number two?

59:36
Sophia
I will never forgive out of the Shadows for giving us cop scab Casey Jones. In no world is Stephen Amell recognizable as Casey Jones. So frankly, I'm happy he's not in this movie because I think we don't need him. I love Kayce. I think he brings a lot to the table. But a lot of what he brings to the table is being someone for Raphael specifically and a lot of the other turtles to, like, play off of. Who's a human who's, like, kind of on their level, you know, he's not quite as strong, but he has similar ideas about how to handle things. He's a little bit more mature, whereas April o' Neil is, like, kind of their aunt. You know, like, she's kind of got a sort of more level head on her shoulders.

01:00:18
Sophia
And so they can play off of her in a little bit less direct way. And I don't think you need that in this movie. For one thing, you have Will Arnett's character, who Verne, who, like, can kind of be dunked on a little bit as far as humans who interact with the turtles in sort of a way that Casey can sometimes junked on, Although he can dunk right back, because that's my boy. But no, I. I hate Casey in the second movie. He's my least favorite Casey Jones of all time. And I don't want more of him here. I think he would be unnecessary to this film.

01:00:48
Case
And that, in a roundabout way, is a pro for this movie.

01:00:51
Sophia
You know, if you have to find a pro, you don't have to look at Stephen and Melmore.

01:01:00
Case
Just crossing off all my notes of little pros I have in this one. I do also have a note that I do appreciate the fact that all their phones are Windows Phones in this. That is a bit of product placement right there. That as someone who owned not one, but two Windows phones, a Windows Phone 7 and a Windows Phone 8. I have a soft spot for that OS and died at the right time because there were no apps on it. But the actual OS itself was great and it was wonderful. And it was nice to see it on their phones. The Windows 8 on all their computers, not so much. Let's be real here. In the real world, they'd be using Macs at those offices. So I don't know. I just wanted to shout that one out there.

01:01:45
Case
Just because that product placement I saw might go over other people's heads, but I saw it because I'm a phone nerd.

01:01:54
Sophia
Love putting out some product placement. It's a. It's in most movies. You'll see it. It's there. Don't worry. And usually for the turtles, it's pizza related. So it's just cool that it's phones instead.

01:02:03
Case
Oh, it's still. It is also pizza related. Yeah, but because it's Pizza Hut.

01:02:07
Sophia
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:10
Case
I do want to. Just like we mentioned that I don't like this part before, but I just need to emphasize that I don't like this part. The part about them being April's pets.

01:02:18
Sam
Yeah, know.

01:02:21
Case
God, I hate that.

01:02:23
Sam
And unnecessary. Like April already has a reason to be in their life just by the fact that they are a phenomenon. Like a strange phenomenon happening in the city and she's a person looking for a story like that is enough justification for April to be in Their life. They don't need a deeper connection than that. They don't need, like, I met you once upon a time. Like, this was destiny. Like, I was destined to meet you. It doesn't need to be. That there justification has existed forever. And this feels like another case of them trying to do same, but a little bit different. Like, oh, but what if April's act like they are. They're so beholden to her because she was. They were once her pets, and she saved them from, like, this lab accident.

01:03:20
Sam
And, like, they're like, oh, my God, April person we've been waiting to find us. Like, she's the chosen one. Like, it's really. It's really weird. It's like April set into motion their freedom so that they could become heroes. Like, it's. It's like, I don't know. And, like, I don't know how that would have worked out with the alien thing. Like, I don't know if she, like, freed extraterrestrial, because, again, we. We're not seeing that initial, like, work. But it's just such a weird, unnecessary connection. It is not needed at all because she already has justification for being in their life to the point that she is a person who has discovered them and a person who doesn't like the foot. That is enough. That is 100% enough reason for April O' Neil to become an ally of the turtles.

01:04:21
Sophia
Yeah, absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head. There's so much going on with her already that she would already be encountering these turtles. So within the context of the movie, I think it's just more bloat, basically. It's just more unnecessary justifications for why this is all connected. But to tie it into this, a lot of times, the turtles, they're seeking acceptance from humanity because they've lived in a sewer their whole life, and they're teens and they want to go be out in the world. And that's a big plot point in the sequel, more so than in this one. They allude to it occasionally. But I think making April so narratively tied to the turtles, like, Sam's saying, like, making it as though it's destiny, it's fate that they must meet up like this.

01:04:59
Sam
This.

01:04:59
Sophia
It kind of cheapens the fact that she's a human who's not afraid of them. She's proof that humanity could accept the turtles. But it doesn't really work because she's the person who's the exception narratively and, like, mystically, fantastically, like, she's her turtles, of course she would accept them. And when she's just kind of a random human who is a reporter who happens to come across them, she can just be the voice of humanity who's like, no, we could come to accept you with time. We can be good people who are like, you guys are saving our. Our butts. You're. You're great Ninja Turtles. And instead, it's just way more nonsense in the movie that is already full of so much extra nonsense, and it kind of cheapens any, like, theme the movie might have had.

01:05:49
Case
Yeah, exactly.

01:05:50
Sam
Yeah. In previous versions of this, Michelangelo having, like, puppy love, like, about her or having a crush on her makes sense in that sense because she accepts him. Right. And that's, like, more so than any. Like, all of them, like, really want acceptance. But, like, a lot of Mikey, like, one of the things when Mikey's done well, one of the things that's done well about him is that he's the turtle that most craves that acceptance because he's the most extroverted. And so staying in the sewer is really hard for him. Right. Like, where everyone else is, like, kind of like, Donatello could sit there all day. Like, he would have been perfect during quarantine. Like, Donatello can just stay at home forever.

01:06:36
Sam
But Mikey's like, he is the turtle who most, like, wants to be out there, wants to be partying, wants to get to know people. And so, like, it makes sense, and it makes that weird crush more acceptable where. Where with this, it's just. It's just weird. Everything's just cheapened with their character relations.

01:07:02
Case
Yeah. This is sort of the. The thing I was, like, getting at, which is that she's less special by way of making her the special girl. You know, like, she's supposed to be, like, the best of humanity, and instead, it's. It's not that at all. Yeah, the whole thing is cheaper for these, like, conveniences that are written in.

01:07:21
Sam
It's her inheritance.

01:07:22
Sophia
Yeah. It gets back to the idea that this movie doesn't trust its audience to get invested in the characters just on their own merits, just existing in the world. They have to connect everything and tie up every possible loose end so that you don't question the movie at all, but it just kind of flattens it into this boring tapestry of rote events, and everything is less special because of it.

01:07:45
Case
Yeah, I think that is a good way to sum up this movie. Everything is less special because of the choices they made. So why don't we take a break? Shout out one of the shows on our network. And when we come back, let's see what choices we can make that would make this movie slightly more special. Hey. Oh, hey, Jeff. What's going on, guys? Oh, you know, talking about Superman. Oh, cool. I could talk about Superman. I could talk some more about Superman. We know. I'll bet a few people would want to get in on this. I'm down.

01:08:18
Sophia
You know it.

01:08:18
Case
That sounds like fun. I'll do it.

01:08:20
Sam
Cool.

01:08:20
Case
Let's do it. We can call the show Men of Steel, and you can find it@ certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:08:28
Sophia
Yay.

01:08:30
Case
And we're back. All right, Sophia, so you've been on before, but you are familiar because you hear it every single time. There is one rule on the show, which is that I am not allowed to go before Sam. In terms of our discussion, we have a guideline which is that we try to be realistic for the time of production, which is going to make this one wild, because there's so much that went into course correcting this movie already that I contend there's going to be very little that could realistically be done. But I want to hear what you guys have to say. So, Sophia, you are our guest. You can take the first swing, or Sam can take the first swing. I just can't go before Sam, so I can go third. Or I can go second or third. I just can't go first.

01:09:13
Sophia
I'll take a swing first. Because I feel like we're all going to kind of end up converging on very similar points based on what this movie is doing in the time that it was made. So I'll take my swing.

01:09:23
Case
It can be an additive, collective, mutational kind of thing.

01:09:27
Sophia
We're stronger together. We're like a group of teenage mutiny turtles. Yeah. Yeah. We're like a team. We're a family. I'm an editor, and so I'm going to take approach a How would I fix this in the editing booth? Approach to it, because I think that there's the bones of a passable action movie in here, and I think a lot of it is too bloated for its own good. So what I would propose is essentially taking the first 30 minutes of the movie or so where it's mostly the April plot line and, like, hacking and slashing that bad boy down to its bare bones. Like, let's start with her explaining to Whoopi Goldberg. I found these signs of these vigilantes. Here's all my proof of my big Conspiracy board and just get right into. And then she has to go do her little puff piece.

01:10:12
Sophia
And then that night, she's investigating the crimes again. Let's just streamline all of that into one series of events. Instead of multiple instances of the Foot Clan, multiple instances of almost seeing these vigilantes so that we can, as quickly as possible get to the Ninja Turtles. I think they're introduced way too late in the movie. They are the title. And we need time to experience those teenage antics before the final fight. So I would propose adding in a bit more of that elevator scene panache in this middle sequence where they're kind of getting to know April, where they take her down to the sewers. Be like, here's our hideout. Here's who we are. Let's have a little bit more bits. Let's let the turtles who aren't Mikey do some bits.

01:10:50
Sophia
Let's add a bit more Teen interlude before we then get into the action thrust. That's really the last third of the movie because it's kind of like nonstop sequences one after another. And some of those sequences are pretty strong. You know, we get Shredder and Splinter fight. They go to the mysterious lab in the mountains of New York, the snowboard fight. And that's not awful. If we're making serious cuts to this movie, I'm getting rid of the Sax character entirely because that plot line does not need to be part of it. In my massive streamline version of April's story, she is just April o', Neill, intrepid reporter. She didn't know the turtles beforehand. I think that you could have. Maybe Shredder is just interested in these turtles because he gets a sample of their blood at some point.

01:11:33
Sophia
Maybe they have an earlier scrape with the Foot Clan. Mullin's like, whoa, I got this green ooze on me. And Shredder's like, whoa, Restorative. We don't need a whole other guy who knows about the ooze secrets. Or maybe he just finds the ruins of the fire, if we're going to keep that in, and he pulls notes out of there. But whatever it is, we kind of streamline everything into one plot line and build up to just fighting Shredder at the end. And, yeah, the last bit of the movie can kind of happen more or less how it does. I think the action sequences are so fluid where I don't know what you really cut from those to streamline.

01:12:06
Sophia
It does kind of feel like once we're in the everyone is fighting part of the movie, they can just kind of fight, and that'll get us through to it. But I think we need to get to that way sooner. So my big swing is just chopping down the front end of the movie to make the back end happen sooner.

01:12:23
Case
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like I said, the beats are relatively similar to the original Ninja turtles movie. It's just they decompress way too much at the front end, and then the action sequences are way too frenetic in the back end, so the pacing is just all off. So, yeah, I think taking it from an editor standpoint makes a lot of sense. And I agree. If we could cut out Eric Sacks, that would be awesome. Or at least downplay the role substantially.

01:12:48
Sophia
Yeah. No shame to William Fitchner or anything, but just the character is so superfluous to this movie, especially because, as we'll see in the sequel, the turtles have scientist villains. They've got Baxter Stockman who are more fun to see on screen. We don't need this other guy who's not gonna ever pop up again to really be important. It's a vestige of previous versions of this film, so I think it's cleaning it up.

01:13:12
Case
You know, you can't even have the Shredder have his name, because then it's just weird that there's Eric Sacks who works for Oroku sa. Like, it's such a strange. Like, it's such a bad idea that clearly they. They wanted to run with and then got shamed out of doing. But it is gonna be a black mark on the series for these two movies at least.

01:13:32
Sam
Yeah.

01:13:33
Sophia
So I think, you know, maybe we can interspice more like Foot Clan attacks in between. Maybe instead of having them be things April is investigating in the front, we, like, put those in the middle and, like, more directly show the turtles clashing with the Foot Clan, because then we can kind of, like, allude to Shredder and build up the mystique of him without actually showing Shredder on screen until closer to the end, so that it's more impactful when he does show up and he fights Splinter. And it's this whole big moment of, like, oh, this is the big bad. He's a real threat, as opposed to. We're introducing to you, for the first time ever, the big bad of the movie. And it's like, I sure, I believe you, I guess.

01:14:07
Case
Yeah. Well, I have a theory that they put that scene in there specifically so that they can, like, cut off, like, people being like, is. Is Eric Sax the Shredder?

01:14:16
Sophia
Yeah.

01:14:17
Case
Like, it's clearly an insert for that purpose for sure.

01:14:21
Sophia
But yeah, it's just a lot of trimming for if we're gonna go to it from a rewrite standpoint, obviously. I think similarly, like just kind of putting all the different plot lines back into one time stream where they're all like, we can mush Saxon Shredder back into one guy. And April does not have to have this whole lab backstory that can just be April meets the Turtles into one time stream. But that's getting into, I don't know what would be like the 20th rewrite of this movie that it went through, I'm sure. So I'm not sure if that's within the confines of what was realistic. So instead, taking it from the editor's booth would kind of be my approach.

01:14:58
Case
Yeah, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I think you were right that we're all kind of in agreement about what needs to be fixed in this movie.

01:15:07
Sam
Yeah, I was like, so that's it. That's the Sophia fixed it. We're good. Yeah, yeah. No, I absolutely agree with you. I mean, like, I definitely feel like this movie misses fun a lot and the turtles are fun. Like that's the thing about them. Like, like it gets the arguing right. Like, because they've always had tension. But like, I feel like especially upfront, it's almost all tension. And I know that's like to try to pay off because we're not doing a lot of character work trying to pay off at the end. But sometimes you gotta like show things are not broken before you break them and then fix them again so that they actually have a good emotional stake.

01:15:54
Sam
So it would have been really nice to have some more upfront, you know, even if it was just whispers and giggling after they had done something to the foot. Right. Like you could have just inserted couple of more them thwarting the foot like fast. I mean, it doesn't even have to be like a, an amazingly long kind of like drawn out scene. Actually thinking about, I like the subway scene when like, you know, like April kind of catches them on camera, which still dumb. But the actual sequence of them coming in and beating people up was very cool.

01:16:31
Sam
And so yes, I, I, I think that if we had a little more of that and maybe some whispering and some like high fives from the guys and like, you know, even if it was like too like, I don't know, musical sequence, you know, kind of like a training montage kind of thing. I would have enjoyed a lot more than just what we got. But down April, add more turtles back in. Not because we don't like April, but just because this version of her is just not well written. Like, her job doesn't make sense. Like, she should be exactly what you said. She should be doing her puff pieces during the day. And then she should have a red string, like board. It has all the different places where the foot has been sort of thwarted, where she's like.

01:17:27
Sam
And then, like, when you go into the board, you could, like, basically go into that moment, and that way you have, like, little snippets of what they're doing. But how April, like, tracking them. Like, she doesn't have proof of them. And you can even have, like, a seed where she goes into, like, Whoopi's office before she even gets, like, the video. And she'd be like, here, and she puts it down and it's just like a blur. And, like, you can't tell what that picture is. And Whoopi's like, in my office because she's great at kicking people out offices. It'd been better use of her, and it would have been great. Like, it would have been like, she keeps, like, kind of going after it. I think it would have been much better use of April, her just, like, relentlessly training.

01:18:11
Sam
And would have been better than conversations with her roommate or even with Sachs. Just replace all of that with her Grayling, these vigilantes, and I think that would have been much, much better. And that's my.

01:18:31
Case
Yeah, yeah. No, I love the idea of, like, her actually presenting, because she actually presents, like, a fairly good argument of like, the vigilante thing until she, like, breaks out the.

01:18:39
Sophia
And they're turtles, and they're my turtles, specifically. She's like, yeah, my turtle. Specifically my childhood turtles. Which at that point I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't believe you either. They're. If you said they're turtles, maybe, but, like, your turtles. Come on, girl. No one's that special, right?

01:18:54
Case
Yeah, it just. It gets more absurd because of all. Yeah, all right. Like, cuz, like, I. I agree. These are all the things that need to be fixed. I. I am so curious how that could even happen, though, because, like, the, like, the Eric Sack stuff, like, can you completely excise him from this movie? I don't think you can, the way it's shot, but I'd love to see one try.

01:19:23
Sophia
Yeah, I think you could trim him down significantly if you're trying to. Even if you have to leave it in. In the cut. If you try to downplay his and April's previous relationship, like, how they know each other from her childhood, and you limit the amount of flashbacks to that lab, I think you could at least get him to be a less significant portion of the film, even if you have to leave him in there. And you can kind of cut him down to. He shows up the first time, he says, hi, April. He encourages her. And then we get one moment of him talking to the Shredder immediately being like, we found the ooze. And then he can kind of eggs onto.

01:20:02
Case
Then it's all Shredder stuff.

01:20:03
Sophia
Yeah, it's all Shredder stuff. Like, I think that you can kind of mush it down. You can't get rid of it entirely because everything is so muddled together. But I think that there's so many ways to trim what is admittedly already not the longest movie in the world. I think it's, like an hour 40, which is closer to two hours than one, but still not super long by movie standards. So it's amazing to me how long it felt when I watched it.

01:20:30
Sam
I think there could also be another angle where we need to keep him in, right, where you just kind of cut what their. The information about their previous relationship and, of course, the pets part. And you have her. You give her a justification to going to him because she's trailing the Foot, and she sees that there is some, like, financial connection possibly to him and the Foot. And so as a reporter, he goes there to kind of, like, talk to him and kind of, like, take him down and. And just so that he's in there and you see him, like, you know, that reporter's getting, like, kind of close to the truth. Like, should we take care of her and be like, no, our focus is on the Ooze and the Mutants.

01:21:17
Sam
I'm like, that way, it's like she has a moment with him, and you can still have him in it, and you can still have him as, like, face of a corporation that is just the face of something, but there's actually a shadow behind him, right? You can even still have him do, like, a press conference kind of thing and then, like, go back to talk to the Shredder and, like, the Foot people could be there, and he could be like, yes, sir, and go away. Like, so just make him, like, puppet. Like a. Like a figurehead puppet, and edit out all the other parts, and then you can still kind of have him in the film. You might have to do A reshoot or edit, something and that kind of thing. But I think you could use some of the footage you already have.

01:22:04
Case
Yeah, hopefully. And so I'm refreshing my memory on what the actual story of the rewrites and so forth happened and checking it. It looks like the script was rewritten before they went into actual production from a version that leaked called the Blue Door Draft that was hosted online and people were able to comment on it. And the creators leered and Eastman said it was a terrible thing and that it was, that people should be glad that draft isn't what went into production. So now makes me wonder, like, okay, well, so the script they went into clearly still retains elements of that draft. But now I'm thinking, well, they probably could have like, done even more not in the edit, but like, certainly in the. In the writing phase to remove some of those elements.

01:22:53
Case
So it just seems like, yeah, I just keep butting up against this one because it just feels like there was so much inertia from this earlier draft that must have gone into some sort of pre production elements, because why they chose to keep it, as opposed to just scrapping the script completely and starting fresh is beyond me. I mean, fuck, if they just took the script from the original one and just updated it slightly.

01:23:21
Sophia
Yeah, you could just kind of add more recent slang in and you would have covered your bases more or less. But this is a. Unfortunately, like, incredibly emblematic of the year 2014 in its way. Like, it is a distinctly 20 teens movie. And that is probably why I think we're struggling so much to be like, how could we realistically change this? Because so much of it is kind of locked into the time that it was made.

01:23:48
Case
Yeah, Yeah, I think, yeah. Calling this a distinctly 2014 movie is really apt. And it's why I'm like banging my head against the wall on this one. You know, it just. It. It feels like they were just sort of stuck with this piece of. And they made the most that they could out of it in terms of, like, making it what I think is a passable, like, enjoyable enough Ninja Turtles movie. It's not. Again, it's the worst Ninja Turtles movie. But, like, it's like. But I still like watching Ninja Turtles.

01:24:18
Sophia
Like, I guess we love being a turtle. It's in so many versions of theme song. And you have to. I think that, like, again, the biggest thing in this movie is that it does not love being a turtle. It doesn't love the Ninja Turtles, and that shines throughout. So I. It's Just.

01:24:34
Sam
It only loves Wolverine Raphael.

01:24:36
Sophia
It loves Wolverine Raphael. Maybe we just, like, cut all the other turtles out, and it's just a raft movie now. Like. Like, we just be like, I don't know, Alan. It's all you, buddy. I'll bring it home for us.

01:24:47
Sam
Start when they're already abducted and just have them go to save them.

01:24:52
Case
Yeah, see, that would be a fine sequel to. To this movie if it was, like, pure. Like a pure Raphael movie you could do, because that's x2.

01:25:01
Sophia
Yeah.

01:25:02
Case
If we're keeping the Wolverine comparison right there.

01:25:06
Sam
Yeah, it is.

01:25:07
Case
Yeah.

01:25:10
Sam
Yeah.

01:25:10
Case
I'm just banging my head against the wall on this one because, like, yes, there are so many things that I dislike that I wish they had changed, but I also just don't know how much we could legitimately change. And it makes me regret suggesting this movie because I was the one who brought it to sphere when I found out you were doing Turtlemania that I was like, yeah, we should do it.

01:25:29
Sophia
You know, it's good to pick apart, because there's a lot you can say about it, and I think you're right. There's not a of lot that you can, like. If you look at it through a perfectly realistic lens, like, we've got the wish list. I think we've covered off on of things that we would love to have changed. Right. If were. If we drafted the. Another pass script version and we leaked it online in 2013 or whatever, they went into production, and we're like, ooh, this is the one you're gonna make. It would be a better movie. But I think, you know, doing what you can to condense the disparate elements into a tighter runtime, emphasizing different parts of the film.

01:26:02
Sophia
Making the turtles more of it so that they are more of the focus is kind of the best realistic approach I can think of, because there's just so much extra stuff in this movie that is fundamentally not about the Turtles. And if we can just put a spotlight on them by cutting out some of the bloat, I think that will go a long way towards making this a much more enjoyable watch.

01:26:23
Sam
Yeah.

01:26:23
Case
Yeah. I think you summed it up perfectly right there.

01:26:27
Sophia
Listen to your editors, people. That's the lesson.

01:26:31
Case
Yes, listen to your editors. And we try to listen to our editor. I think we've had enough of the turtle conversation here. So, Sophia, where can people find you and follow you?

01:26:43
Sophia
Well, if you want to find even more turtle conversation, you can check me out over on Movie Struck. It's a podcast about movies and people who watch them. Both of my lovely co hosts today have been on the podcast previously many times, and we recently did just do a whole month of Ninja Turtles movies. So if you're at all interested in the Ninja Turtles, which I hope you are, you listen to this whole podcast and episode and we love them. There's so many great iterations of them. Just maybe not this one. You should definitely go check those episodes out. It's Movie Struck on all fine podcast platforms. And you can also find me on a D and D actual play podcast called Rolling With Difficulty where I am a player and a producer. I'm sort of the podcast.

01:27:21
Sophia
I don't know the podcast turtle and I do podcasts and that would be my thing in theme song on many shows. But those are the two main ones. So check out Movie Struck and Rolling With Difficulty wherever fine podcasts are found. And if you want to follow me personally, you can find me at Sophiek BSGuy Social on Bluesky. It's pretty much the only social platform that I really use and it's mostly reposting when new episodes of Rolling With Difficulty and Movie Stroke go out. So those are the spots. And also you should continue to support Another Pass and Men of Steel because I'm the editor on those and they're great shows, which you know because you're listening to one right now. So definitely continue to check those out here on certain pov.

01:28:02
Case
Thank you, thank you for circling back to a plug for our own show.

01:28:06
Sam
Listen to Sophia Edit us into coherent people every week, once a month now, once a month, whenever we talk.

01:28:15
Case
No, but thank you for plugging the shows because it is wonderful to have the support out there for the show and that allows us to continue making episodes and thus employing Sophia.

01:28:26
Sophia
Positive people, let's keep it up.

01:28:29
Case
It is in fact a net positive. So before we get into our respective plugs, I might as well just like shill for the Patreon right now because hey, because that was a good handoff right there. We have a Patreon going for this show and for everything that I'm working on. So if you go to patreon.com certainpov media you can support the show. Honestly, even if you join the free tier, it's appreciated. I do essays every week, one on a nerdy topic of my choice and one on TTRPG topic of my choice because I'm a big old Dungeon and Dragons nerd. This week the nerdy topic of my choice was talking about actual genetic engineering in the real world. So that's actually kind of appropriate for it. Now, by the time that this episode drops, because podcast time is crazy.

01:29:10
Case
It will have been months ago, but I'll still be doing it. So you can check those out. Like I said, at the free tier you get essays, at the paid tiers you get sneak peeks for the upcoming episodes, you get early releases of the videos that we're doing. And at the highest paid tier, you get shout outs at the end of each podcast episode, such as Micah McCaw, Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, Lee Greger, Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Masterpiero, Casey and Nancy Akin, Adam Sampter and Keith Letinen. These are wonderful people who have decided to support the show and allows us to keep doing this and that's just a fantastic thing. So please consider supporting us because we've got a lot of stuff going on. I got baby number two coming like that. That's gonna be.

01:29:52
Case
And by the time this episode's dropped, baby number two will be here because podcast time is crazy and all that jazz. So if you can, please consider it. And if not, just follow us on our socials and check us out. You can find us on our Discord server, the Certain POV Discord server is a great place to interact with us. There's a link in the episode description as well as if you just go to the homepage for certainpov.com that's a great place to come interact with us. Otherwise, if Discord's not your thing, Sam, where can people find you and follow you?

01:30:25
Sam
They can find me every time this drops and I lurk in Discord occasionally. So, you know, I see what you're saying. Other than that, if you have any problem with anything I said to you, although to me, I feel like I don't think I said anything that you could have a problem with. But if you have any complaints in general about another class, you can find case at.

01:30:47
Case
Send those complaints my way, baby. You can find me on all social medias aiken x 6 step for Instagram where I'm holding on 4 dear life to my aim screen name from high school, which is quetzalcoatl5q u e t Z A L C o a T L5 because I was pretentious in high school as well. Please send your thoughts there. I'm gonna shout out actually a show on our network right now because if you want to be on a podcast, please reach out to me because we have a new show called Trade School going. Trade School is a show where guests come on and talk for five to 15 minutes about a comic book trade paperback that they loved. If you like Ninja Turtles, they have plenty of those that you're welcome to submit.

01:31:29
Case
And all I'm looking for is just a, just give me a voice memo of why you love the comic book and why and what it was and why it meant something to you. Like I said, five to 15 minutes. And if you wanted to reach out to me, you can do so at case not aase aiken case.aikenmail.com where I will happily take your submissions for trade school. That is an excellent thing to direct people towards. So let's, let's keep that going because I had a crap ton of episodes in the backlog when we launched and it's a weekly show, so I burned through a lot of them real fast. So please give me submissions on that one. Otherwise, Sophia, thank you again for coming on this show. It's always a blast having you. It's great interacting with you whenever I can.

01:32:13
Sophia
Well, thank you. It's fun to get to respond to you guys in real time and have this discussion. It's always a super fun time listening back to it and being like, yes, this is what I would say. It's a very different experience to get to actually have that conversation. So thanks for having me back on. And this was super fun. I think the only appropriate way to end this would be to do a kind of joint Cowabunga. But I know that there is technically a sign off for the podcast.

01:32:36
Case
We have to do the joint Cowabunga first. So Cowabunga says it all.

01:32:39
Sophia
Yeah, Cowabunga. Cowabunga. Yeah, that's. I'll sync it up in post, guys. Don't worry, I got that.

01:32:46
Case
We'll find a way. We'll find a way. Meanwhile, once you've checked out Trade school, once you've checked out Movie Struck, once you've checked out Rolling with difficulty and all the stuff that we're working on, circle back for the next episode. Sam, what have we got coming up next?

01:32:59
Sam
Next time we'll be talking about Highlander 2 the Quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

01:33:11
Case
Thanks for listening to Certain Point of View's Another Pass podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on itunes. Just go to certainpov.com Another pass is.

01:33:24
Sam
A certain POV production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Richardi. Our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken, our intro theme is by Vin Makarina, and our outro theme is By Matt Brogan,.

01:33:40
Case
CPOV certainpov.com.

  Transcribed by https://fireflies.ai/