Another Pass at Hudson Hawk
Case and Sam are joined by Jay McKiernan (Long Live the Legion) to discuss one of the strangest studio movies ever made: Hudson Hawk. Bruce Willis's passion project is a wild mix of heist film, slapstick comedy, musical numbers, Vatican conspiracies, and cartoon logic that somehow also feels a little bit like Street Fighter. Is it a misunderstood cult classic, a glorious mess, or both? Join us as we try to make sense of one of the most fascinatingly flawed movies of the 1990s.
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Another Pass Full Episode Originally aired: June 26, 2026
Music by Vin Macri and Matt Brogan
Podcast Edited by Sophia Ricciardi
Certain Point Of View is a podcast network brining you all sorts of nerdy goodness! From Star Wars role playing, to Disney day dreaming, to video game love, we've got the show for you! Learn more on our website: https://www.certainpov.com
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PODCAST SHOWS: ▶ Another Pass - https://www.certainpov.com/another-pass-podcast
⏱️ YouTube Chapters
00:00 – Introduction & Duke Returns
01:45 – Duke's History with Transmetropolitan
03:18 – Who Should Play Spider Jerusalem?
07:00 – Where the Story Stands Before Volume 9
08:02 – Here Comes the Sun: Returning to the Disaster Zone
12:43 – Yelena's Anger & Spider's Investigation Begins
17:38 – Running Through the City Like a Motherfucker
21:22 – Fred Christ's Final Conversation
23:42 – The Truth About the Angels 8 Riot
31:35 – How the Smiler Really Operates
36:49 – Two-Fisted Editor: Royce Takes Action
40:02 – Royce's Investigation & Blackmail Campaign
45:01 – Royce Saves the Case
48:36 – The Cure Begins: A Woman in Hiding
52:24 – Spider Finds the Missing Witness
56:21 – Ambush at the Hotel
01:02:39 – Safe House Interview & The President's Secret
01:10:57 – Martial Law and the Final Push
01:16:35 – “When Was the Last Time You Had Sex with a Transient Prostitute?”
01:17:09 – Volume 9 Discussion & Final Thoughts
01:24:02 – Where to Find Duke
01:25:40 – Where to Find Keith
01:27:41 – Patreon Shout-Outs & Outro
Transcription
00:00
Case
And we haven't actually brought up Alfred the butler. Just who I want to shout out. Just because of that Street Fighter energy. I was like, man, there's some Vega stuff going on.
00:09
Sam
His weapon was very cool. His weapon was very cool. We got introduced to it very early on.
00:16
Case
Right, Those retracting goddamn knives. Yes, very cool.
00:21
Sam
Very, very cool.
00:22
Case
Maybe that's the thing. If I knew that this movie just devolved into Street Fighter from the very beginning. Like, if it was Hudson Hawk, the world. Welcome to Certain POVs Another Pass podcast with Case and Sam where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Another Pass podcast. I'm Case Aiken and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alizea.
00:58
Sam
Hi,.
01:01
Case
Sam. Are you a fan of the Pink Panther?
01:06
Sam
Absolutely. Love the Pink Panther. That's both the cartoon and the movies.
01:13
Case
That's fantastic. Because the Pink Panther is a cartoon that I feel is a spiritual successor or spiritual progenitor, I should say to the movie that we're talking about today, because today we are talking about the 1991 Bruce Willis comedy. We'll call it a comedy.
01:31
Sam
The comedy.
01:32
Case
Hi. Hi. Ice Comedy Hudson Hawk. And to have that conversation, we're joined by Jay McKiernan.
01:39
Jay
Hey, how you doing, Jay?
01:42
Case
Welcome to Another Pass. You have been on Men of Steel and I have been on your show Long live the Legion. But I am so glad to get you on Another Pass.
01:50
Jay
I am so excited to be here when I discovered this podcast. It's one of those that I've always wanted to be a part of. So thank you very much for inviting me.
01:59
Case
Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, I'm glad to have you here. I'm torn about the movie that you brought this week.
02:08
Jay
Yes, I've already joked that I feel I should be handing out apology cards forcing people to watch this movie, but I wanted to pick something that was weird and strange and doesn't get made today. And I really wanted to avo bugs just for Sam. So I thought this was a great choice.
02:25
Sam
I really appreciate that, really appreciate avoiding bugs.
02:31
Case
But man, there's so much weirdness in this movie. I, I, I just, I, I just kept on having more like, oh. Reactions as, like the a, as this turned into a full on cartoon. And it was just sort of surprising because like I, when I was looking at the TV Tropes page, there was one note that was just like for people who are fans of Bruce Willis from career before Die Hard versus after Die Hard. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm definitely a post Die Hard fan. Like, I, I have let next to no appreciation of anything Bruce Willis did before Die Hard. Like, I just wasn't a fan of his. And I'm not saying I'm like, oh, I didn't like it.
03:11
Case
I mean, like, I just have never witnessed any of his comedy career that he had before this and just am not. I, I was not prepared for a movie that harkens back to his comedy chops in quotes. So so much right there as this movie. I was like, very surprised. It was just a different Bruce Willis than I was used to. But from the perspective of like his career, if you actually, like were really watching it's like, oh, I, I guess that makes sense that he would take this with such a tongue in cheek kind of performance.
03:45
Jay
Yeah, I think he was. I mean, this is a labor of love for him. Like, I don't know how much the audience knows about the background, but basically Bruce Willis had been wanting to make this movie for years and years after he became buddies with a guy who actually wrote a song called Hudson Hawk, Robert Kraft. And so he had, he'd kind of promised them that as soon as he became big, he was going to make this. And so, yeah, it's nothing like Die Hard. I don't even know if it's a lot like Moonlighting. Like, it's like when you mentioned Bruce Willis's previous career. Like, I mean, his comedy chops on Moonlighting. I don't even think this is close to that because Moonlighting was all sharp, crisp dialogue and this bitty or, sorry, this witty repartee. My mouth isn't working today.
04:33
Jay
Between him and Cybill Shepherd. And that's not this movie. Like, this movie is like, you mentioned Pink Panther. It's Pink Panther, It's Rocky and Bullwinkle. It's our man Flint. It's kind of nothing like anything Willis had ever done or would do again.
04:49
Case
Well, it makes sense that would do again, like after the reception of this movie. But yes, it is true that it doesn't quite map to anything that he's ever done beforehand, as far as I can tell, because again, I know it mostly by reputation as opposed to having actually directly witnessed. So that's just an interesting part there. Yeah, so I had no idea what to expect when I put this movie on. Like, I had heard the name of this movie and I was like, oh, yeah, it's a Bruce Willis movie. And in my, the back of my mind, I was like, is this the one people say is like a decent Die Hard movie that didn't have Die Hard branding? Because, like, there is a movie and I can't remember which one it is. It's not this one. It's. It's not this movie.
05:32
Case
But that may have set me up for like a weird perspective of this movie before we go.
05:40
Jay
Yeah. And I think if you had gone into this movie expecting Die Hard, you would have. I mean, if you would have been like everybody who saw this movie when it came out in 1991, because it was sold like Die Hard as a thief. And then as soon as people went to see it in theater, they were stunned that it was nothing like Die Hard.
06:01
Case
No.
06:01
Jay
Yeah, yeah, It's. I mean, it was a movie that I think was dead before it hit the box office because of all the bad press that it got. And then they tried their best to kind of say, hey, we've got Bruce Willis, star of Die Hard, and the producer is Joel Silver, and they can list off all of his action films at this point. And then you watch this and it's not an action film.
06:27
Case
Right.
06:28
Sam
There's action.
06:30
Case
Yeah.
06:30
Sam
There's plastic action. This movie is also much more violent than I remembered it being because I did see it when I was a kid and the slapstick stayed in my head. But the, but the violence did not blow it up in this movie. Like, and I don't mean blown up, I mean blowed up. Like, it is like the worst, ridiculous, like, silliest amount of violence. Like, the Roadrunner and Coyote would be so proud of them just blowing each other up.
07:05
Jay
Yeah. And I think that's one of the big, like, the tonal shifts in the movie are. So, like, you mentioned the violence. Like, if it had just been slapstick, I think it would have kind of worked. And then there's also a beheading just in the middle of nothing. And you're like, how does this fit? Yeah. And, yeah, when the auctioneer blows up and it's the. This huge kind of almost joke scene. Yeah. I mean, I don't think it can figure out, is this an R rated action movie or is this. Is this a Pink Panther movie? Like, it kind of jumps all over the place.
07:35
Case
Yeah, yeah. And I think it gets into the thing that I just am frustrated by in general in this movie, which is that no one's good at their jobs. Like, no one is good at their Jobs. Like, even Bruce Willis's character, like, even the Hudson Hawk is not like a particularly good thief. I like. And it frustrates me because there's, like, parts of them that are parts of it that are like, almost good, you know, like, I like the fact that they are able to time their thievery to songs because they know perfectly how long each of these songs takes to sing if you sing it appropriately in the right beat. But the way they pull off all of their crimes is, like, not particularly like. It's very like, by the skin of their teeth, like, pulled off and not particularly like.
08:27
Case
It's so frustrating to me. Like, the tape sequence where they are. Where they roll it back and it's like there's no surveillance whatsoever. Like, in order to like, make sure that the taping actually, like, is a good time to do it or anything like that. And then they proceed to just rob it without mas. Masks or gloves, if I remember correctly. But definitely without masks or no gloves. Yeah, yeah. And I remember just distinctly thinking, like, man, there's so much evidence, like, in play here. Yeah, I, I, yeah, no gloves was like, was bothering me while I was watching it. And like, the whole thing just was like, isn't he supposed to be like this like, great cat burglar? Like, like, and he's bad at this. And then this. The XCIA guys are all like, bumbling buffoons. Like, everyone in this movie is so.
09:18
Case
But even Leonardo da Vinci is somehow like, kind of like, at the very least, like in a comedic scene. And I mean, he up in the sense that he, like, was trying to. Not trying to make something that turned lead into bronze and like, instead made something that turned lead into gold and that. Okay, so. Sure, sure. All right. So even he's a fuck up. Like, everyone's a fuck up in this movie.
09:44
Jay
Well, did you, I mean, the right fuck up for that is like, bronze is an alloy. It's not a naturally existing metal. Unless my, you know, grade 12 science class was lying to me. So, like, even if he's trying to build bronze, there's easier. Like, you can't just do it from lead. So, like, that whole premise was broken. But ironically enough, like, the director of this movie, Michael Lehman, like, he said we didn't want anything to make sense. Like, we purposefully broke stuff so you'd be watching it going, well, that's dumb. That's dumb. That's dumb. That's dumb. Because that was the kind of movie they were making. So, like, for example, like, you mentioned, the no gloves, the no masks. I mean, they're singing while they're stealing something. So, like, they're obviously making noise as they're going. Right.
10:35
Jay
And then, you know, so, like, everything is just. None of this is supposed to make sense. Like, they're good cat burglars in the same way. We'll go back with the Pink Panther reference. They're good cat burglars in the same way that Inspector Clouseau is a good detective.
10:48
Sam
Right, right.
10:49
Jay
So. So, you know. You know, they're going to win at the end, but, yeah, they're incompetent buffoons. Like, I agree, everybody in this movie is bad at their job. Right? But at least it's. At least it's consistent. Like, at least there's not one person who's, like, there's the only good person. Like, everybody's hor. Which I guess it's just part of the conceit of the movie. You just have to accept this is dumb. Like, I'll go. I'll go one further. And this is one that bugs me every time I watch this. When they go to the auction, the guy walks out with the horse, no gloves on his hands, and just puts it down. And then Andy McDowell walks up, picks it up, no gloves. And it's like, this is a. This is a piece of art that's worth.
11:34
Jay
I mean, what did they end up bidding on it? Like $100 million.
11:38
Case
And they're just absurd numbers. Yeah, yeah.
11:40
Jay
They're just treating it like it's just. They're treating it like it's a, you know, a paperweight. But that's the movie. The movie is just. They don't care.
11:48
Case
Yeah,.
11:51
Jay
But I get your. I get your irritation with us. Like, I understand. It's just. It's one of those things. And this is. I think, you know, I mean, when we talk about, like, making our suggestions or making our passes, is. This is. One of the problems with the movie is that when you're making these tonal shifts and you're trying to figure out what you're trying to be, like, at no point do they kind of make it clear, like, this is what they're breaking, or we're just gonna break everything. And. And I. And I don't know how they. I mean, we can talk about how they can fix it, but. But, yeah, I agree. Like, you watch this, and, I mean, why is Andy McDowell playing an Italian nun?
12:30
Case
Yes. God, I have so many questions about this movie. I think this movie might break me on this.
12:38
Jay
So hopefully I will have as many answers as I can possibly come up with. So. Because, like, my history of this movie is I saw this in theater. I saw it in 1991 after I had heard that it was supposed to be horrible. So I went in going, okay, I'm gonna watch a crappy movie. And I genuinely enjoy watching it for all of its stupidity. So I. I know that's a horrible thing to an embarrassing thing to admit, but it's. It's. This movie entertains me for its stupidity. And maybe it's the same reason I like watching. Yeah. All those old Pink Panther movies that don't make any sense.
13:12
Case
Yeah, no, I mean, like, I. I understand liking a movie that is dumb for the sake of it being dumb. Like, and I like, there. That's the other part of it, which is, like, at. By the very end, when it's like, when Danny AO is like. Comes back and, like, they're like, oh, that makes sense. You must have, like, the, like, where it's so over the top, because apparently they even, like, cut lines to, like, that were, like, them not be. Not believing this. But. But it's. It. It felt like something out of like a Shakespearean farce. And I at that point was like, okay, I'm. I am more here for this level of just like, we can't even believe this. This, like, that the movie is in on it as well. But, man.
14:00
Jay
Okay, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you a little bit of background info to break your brain on this. So another reason why I picked this movie is because it gave me a chance to go back and reread this book called With Nails. And it's Richard E. Grant's onset diaries from his. The beginning of his career. Now, Richard E. Grant plays Darwin Mayflower in this. And in this book, he actually spends an entire chapter talking about the behind the scenes of Hudson Hawk. So to give you an idea of how insane this movie is, Aiello was supposed to die. That was the end of the movie. He was not supposed to come back. And basically, because the movie was just a complete shit show and everybody is adding in, like, this is what I think we should do.
14:45
Jay
This is what I think we should do. Aiello basically went in and said, you know what? I shouldn't die. Like, I should be there in the finale. And they just. They went away, rewrote the ending. Boom. Okay, you're back in. Like, that's. That's. This movie. There is, you know, like, they don't care about Logic. They don't care if things make sense. Shakespearean farce is. Is probably too nice of a way to describe this. Richard Grant describes it as a high school theater production where everybody's throwing ideas out and everyone says, yeah, that's a great idea, let's do that. Because nothing was ever a. No, it's. It's so. So a lot of this stuff that doesn't make sense. That's why it looks like I've broken your brain with that. So.
15:31
Sam
I don't think that this movie is supposed to be a movie that works with a functioning brain. And I will be honest. This. This movie is like. So I watched this with my husband. My husband loves a lot of Hong Kong films that were made in the 90s. And this movie, kind of tonally, is a lot like those movies where you have, like, insane slapstick comedy with insane violence where, like, there are all sorts of tricks happening, where, like, sometimes you're like, what did we get here? I mean, honestly, the giggle that came out of me when the. The truck pulled up, you know, like, so they're. They have to spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen this. So, you know, they're trying to get out of a situation.
16:27
Sam
And so a truck pulls up, an ambulance pulls up, and then a truck is in front of them for the ambulance to, like, kind of go inside of. And I saw the seal and I was like, no, it was the Vatican. The Vatican. It was like, it's the Catholics. Husband's like, oh, yeah, good call. It's just like such weird tickle like, tickling moments for me. This is like, what else is this movie going to throw against the wall? And it just. Yeah, the only thing I was just like was like, how high were people when they wrote this? Because that's what it felt like to me. Like, every moment it was just like, you know, be hilarious if it's this CIA, some rich billionaire dude, and also the Vatican fighting over these codes. And that would be amazing. This movie's ridiculous.
17:19
Sam
And I think you just have to stop looking for logic. I think by, like, maybe, like, by the time we got to Rome, my brain was like, and now we shut off, and now we just enjoy the hijinks because this movie makes no sense. Yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
17:43
Case
Yeah. And, you know, the crazy part is that we have a Louvre robbery in this. And as soon as they got to Rome, I put a note in my, like, in my notes, I just wrote the password was Louvre. We have a Louvre robbery. That actually, like, puts more effort into it than what the real world one that just happened was.
18:02
Sam
Yeah, actually, Greg was like, well, that's going to be the easiest one yet. Why they make that number three?
18:07
Case
So, like, there. There is a part of it where it's like, truth is stranger than fiction to a certain degree when looking at this. Like, sometimes the real world can be just as farcical, if not more so than that. So I can't say that this isn't too realistic because. Or too unrealistic because there is that. I just. I guess where my brain is, like, is. Is cracking. Is that like. Okay, yeah, no, like, once. Once we get into just like, how not technically improvisational, but, like, almost improvisational this movie is. Well, one, it kind of feels like a D and D game in the way that it's sort of like where the game, like, the sessions kind of like, spiral out because, like, the. The DM is just, like, figuring out shit to, like, throw at the players. And it just, like.
18:57
Case
It's more and more absurd as it goes, but. But two like it. It's impressive that they land the ship at all. And I find myself disliking the movie less as I think about it and like it. And so I'm kind of falling into this, like, is this so bad? It's good. Which is where Jay's coming from.
19:18
Sam
This is the magic of this film and pretty much almost all of those Hong Kong movies I was talking about, it's like there's like. There is a magic to the nonsensical kind of beats. I mean, honestly, Halo's right. Him just showing up on a donkey, that actually, like, creates such a beautiful symmetry for this film. That would not have happened because in the very first scene, right, there's a guy at a donkey while they're giving the narration about this invention. And he's going there and he yells at the inventor and stuff like that. So him showing back up, I was like, oh, my God. This is a full circle moment. I love this. And the fact that he was like, yeah, it was airbags. It was this, it was that. He's like, yeah, that's probably what happened.
20:06
Sam
They are taking a piss out of everything. They're like, yeah, we're not going to explain this. He's just not dead. And actually, I was really happy he wasn't dead because I was really sad when he died. So I was just like, oh, good, they gave him back to us. Thank you. Silliest movie in the world.
20:24
Jay
Yeah, I agree with you. The ending. Oh, sorry.
20:27
Sam
Yeah. No, Go on.
20:28
Jay
No, I was just gonna say I think killing Aiella was a horrible mistake. And if they'd left him dead, it would have. It would have not. I can't say, ruined the movie. But, like, you're exactly right. Like, the ending. The ending is better because he comes back, even though it makes no sense. And at the end of the day in the movie, like this. It doesn't have to.
20:51
Sam
Right? I mean, because I think also, like, you know, they're walking out and she's like, do you want a coffee? And I'm like, wait, wait. We're not gonna deal with, like, the loss of any friends or anything that happened. We're just gonna go on with our lives. She's. She's left the order. Has she told the Vatican? Like, she's decided to give up on her God wants me to watch over here. And we're just seeing it. Ignore all the trauma the two of you just went through. You just blew blow. You basically blew a hole in a castle that was supposed to be Da Vinci's castle. Like, technically, you went against the CIA, a billionaire. You just murdered a bunch of people. Nothing. And then it was fine because then their friend showed up because I was like, at least feel bad for your friend.
21:40
Sam
And it was fine because he was alive. And it was. It was a tonal shift that was ridiculous, but made me feel better, so it was good.
21:52
Jay
Yeah. You have to have the happy ending for something like this.
21:55
Case
So, yeah, I was, like, very surprised when I thought, like, oh, did they actually kill him? Oh, geez.
22:04
Sam
And when you see the explosion, you're like, oh, no. There's, like, no way he's gonna make it out. Like, right?
22:11
Case
Yeah, yeah. It's like, what was it when. Was when Isaac Hayes left South park and they had to, like, kill Chef, like, as, like, hardcore as they could. And then they still, like, brought him back in, like, the Darth Vader Chef mode at the very end of that. But speaking of weird pivots of just absurd sci fi bullshit. You know what? I did not expect this movie to be surprisingly similar to. And that is the goddamn Street Fighter movie. Like, there is so much, like, borderline Street Fighter imagery in the last third of this movie.
22:43
Jay
Like, same writer.
22:45
Case
Is it the same writer?
22:46
Jay
Yeah.
22:48
Case
Holy shit.
22:49
Jay
You're talking Street Fighter. Jean Claude. Yeah.
22:52
Case
The Jean Claude Van Damme.
22:53
Jay
Yeah. Stephen d' Souza wrote the first draft of this script and wrote and directed Street Fighter. And I'm sad that I. I'm sad that I know this, but this is part of my life.
23:03
Case
I did not predict that.
23:05
Jay
I did. Yep. And I think that's why there's such a tonal shift, because d' Souza did the first draft, and he's, you know, he's got a certain sense of humor, but he's also very direct with action. And then they brought in this guy, Daniel Waters, who wrote Heathers. I don't know if you've ever watched that, and if you haven't, it's an amazingly good movie. And that's why he got this job. He also wrote Demolition man, so you can take whatever you want with that. And then that's where the like. And I think that's where a lot of the comedy came. And I think having these two different guys, that's why you get these two different tones. Sorry, are we just breaking your brain today?
23:45
Case
A little bit. This is what happens when I don't click on the Wikipedia article for the screenwriter. Mostly because I took the Bruce Willis story by credit as being like, oh, well, that's where the insanity comes from. I didn't stop to think that, oh, the Street Fighter writer is also here. And to be fair, he has a much more prolific career. He's got a bunch of notable works here, but Jesus H. Christ, this movie is insane.
24:16
Jay
Yeah, it is. I mean, you get, like, the. The number of people involved in this. The number. The amount of talent, like, is crazy. You know, just to kind of. I'm going to deep dive this, and I apologize if I get too into the weeds for the listeners. Like, the two directors of photography that they have. The first one basically shot every single Paul Verhoeven film. So he shot Starship Troopers, which was a great episode on this podcast, if you haven't checked it out. And then he quit because the movie was so insane. And they brought in another guy who's, like, just as respected, just as talented. So it's not like it's a bunch of schmoes making this movie.
24:58
Jay
Like, at every single point, it's these big name, talented people who've just come together and are like, let's make the weirdest movie of the last 50 years. Why not?
25:10
Case
Yeah, it does feel very much like everyone's on board for the camp part of it, because it has that vibe where everyone. Where everyone's giving a little too much to the camp, where it doesn't have that editorial hand, like someone pulling back on it slightly, like, because I keep circling back to this. This vision I have. Jay, are you familiar with the Stainless Steel rat Sci Fi Series.
25:42
Jay
I'm not.
25:43
Sam
No.
25:44
Case
Actually, I should get both of you. Sam, are you familiar with it?
25:48
Sam
No.
25:48
Case
So Stainless Steel Rat is a series of sci fi novels about the. The protagonist who is a con man in the future in a. And the. His nickname, the Stainless Steel Rat, is because even in a world that is entirely stainless steel, like, a really good rat can find its way through, like, the cracks and can make its way. One thing I love about it is that it is a hilarious series, but the characters are all actually, like, really good at their jobs. And so it's a scenario that, like, everything gets, like, more and more absurd. There's like, so many jokes about Esperanto, for example, in it, because it's supposed to be a future that everyone has sort of like, figured out what language is. Is preferred, and that's Esperanto, the. The Omni language.
26:33
Case
He is very good at being a con man, and he is very good at being a con man for good. Like, he gets. At the beginning of the series, he gets enlisted by like, a shadowy government agency kind of thing that. That operates, having con men out there for the purpose of doing, like, solving problems that need to be solved extrajudiciously. And at the same time, like, what's a little bit of crime? It's not a big deal. And I. I keep coming back to that as being like, my archetype for, like, what I kind of wished this movie was and what I think the audiences would have kind of preferred from a Bruce Willis property coming off of Die Hard, where, like, if he was a Bruce particularly capable thief in a scenario where, like, the.
27:23
Case
The absurdity that he's facing, he's the straight man up against it. But in this, he's like, a little bit too slapsticky as well. And I think people just wanted him to be the straight man against it.
27:35
Jay
Yeah, I. I think it was. I don't even know if it's. People wanted him to be the straight man. I think people wanted him to be John McClane. And then when he didn't do that, I think they could have gone like. One of the types of movies that they refer to as like, an inspiration are the old, like, Bob Hope, Bing Crosby movies of these two guys who are kind of in over their heads and they're cracking jokes, and one's the funny one and one's the straight one. And I think if they had. If they had leaned into that with Willis and Aiello, although I don't know who would have been the straight one and who would have been the funny one.
28:10
Jay
But I think if they had leaned more into that and just said, like, no, we're not doing McClane, like, we're doing something different. But I think I agree with you. Like, I think if thefts. Well, I always go with this. I think this movie is. You will like this movie if you buy the singing while they're stealing stuff, and if that irritates you, don't watch the movie. Right. But if you're in for, like, okay, this is crazy. So I don't know if they needed to be good thieves, but I think they needed to be smart. Can I. Can I give that difference? Does that make sense?
28:42
Case
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
28:45
Jay
Yeah. Like, and I think that was where it kind of, like, if the two of them had been smart thieves, like you mentioned earlier, like, they escape everything by the seat of their pants. Like, if that first robbery, there had been zero problems, like, they were in and out, done, and they're still singing and they're still being goofy and whatever. But, you know, to kind of go. To. Go to what you said, they're wearing gloves or they're. We're getting some sort of Mission Impossible kind of thing where we're like, oh, these guys are both really talented. I think that would have been better than. Yeah, they just kind of seem to goof around and they. They just get lucky that they get out.
29:21
Case
Yeah, certain. Certainly in terms of, like, what the audience wanted.
29:24
Jay
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't think they cared what the audience wanted when they were making this movie. Like, I think. I think. And. And again, going back to the. To Richard Grant's diaries, like, this movie, they cared about what one person wanted. Right. So this was a movie that was made for Bruce Willis. He controlled every aspect of this, and that was the only person they were trying to make happy. And this shows you what Bruce Millis. Bruce Willis's taste in movies is like.
30:03
Case
Yeah. This also takes me back to. Have you guys watched An Evening with Kevin Smith?
30:07
Jay
Yes.
30:08
Sam
Yes.
30:09
Case
And I'm not sure if it's Volume one or Volume two, but he has a story about working on Cop out, where he talks about Bruce Willis time and sort of paints Willis as something of a diva, which just sort of goes along with that. In talking about this movie, I can.
30:25
Jay
Tell about 20 stories from the diaries of diva behavior. And. And, yeah, this doesn't shock me in the slightest. Like, it is, you know, I mean, everything is done to make him happy. Let's keep Bruce happy. And the rest of them are just there to Kind of support him.
30:41
Case
Yeah, man, you broke my brain with the fact that the. The Street Fighter parallels were actually like, that is still. That's just fucking with me.
30:53
Jay
Anytime I can break a brain, I think I've done my job.
30:55
Case
So, like, I legitimately was just like, man, it's really weird how many, like, Street Fighter type SC are going on at the very end of this movie because it's at this castle. It very much feels like the. The cami stage from Super Street Fighter 2. And not only is it the fact that, like, that. That this there were this many Street Fighter things and that it's the same director, but that you knew that off the top of your head, like, you fired off, like, there was no, like, listeners. There's no edit that shortened the gap in time. He just like, immediately was like, same director and.
31:29
Jay
Same writer. Different director. But yes, writer.
31:31
Sam
Pardon me.
31:31
Case
Same writer. Pardon me.
31:33
Sam
That's how broken his brain is right now. He can't even keep that straight.
31:37
Jay
So. One of the. One of my hidden talents that I try not to show off is a insanely crazy knowledge of movies from, say, 1980 to 2002, where I know this bizarre trivia that I shouldn't know, and I wish I didn't. So, like, I know that Steven. Steven d' Souza did this, but I couldn't tell you, like, two of my three brothers birthdays. That's where my brain works. So it's. It's not something that I'm going to brag about, but it's just there. Yeah.
32:11
Case
So I can relate. Christ. But. But, man. Man, this. That's just. That's still, like I said, just like kind of breaking my brain on this one. Oh. So, thing. Thing I really liked about this movie when Hawk gets out for the. Initially and I picks him up. Sorry, I'm not gonna. What is it? Yeah, regardless, anyway, so.
32:39
Jay
And.
32:40
Case
And they're driving and he's like, are you gonna do Blankety Blank? And it's some actual thing or then. And it's euphemism for sex. And then Blankety Blank or euphemism for sex. Blankety blank or euphemism for sex. And he goes, play Nintendo or something. Blow or something. You know, like I said some. Not even euphemism, just like straight on, like innuendo. I like that Hawk was like, what's a Nintendo? And I. I like that because it does actually fit correctly in this whole scenario of if he was in jail for 10 years, he would be cut off from those kind of societal Changes. And that's a. A real thing that afflicts prisoners who get out of jail. Like, today. Like, imagine, like, in jail for 20 years. Like, you went into jail before the advent of the iPhone, and now you have to, like, look.
33:31
Case
Look at the world through this completely changed, like, paradigm of, like, interaction of things. Just today I had a whole situation where I, like, my phone was starting to run out of battery, and I was like, I need this to get to the train station and I need to get onto my train and have them scan my ticket. Like, I can't have my phone run out of battery. And that was just my. My. The core function of me being able to function was. Was based on my phone having power. And that was for the. These disparate things that would have been paper back in the day.
34:02
Sam
Right.
34:03
Case
So just. Just to. Just to say, I do really like the whole, like, him being a prisoner, him having this, like, this foreign component of, like, understanding the world or not understanding this aspect of the world. And then we get the callback at the end where he uses it as innuendo, which is fine. Like, I. It was fine to do a callback, and him using it as innuendo is. Is fine. Netflix and Chill works just. Just as well. So, like, it makes enough sense. But like I said, I just kind of like that detail. Like, and. And it kind of makes me wish that they were more conscientious of the type of character that they could have been building.
34:50
Jay
Yeah. I mean, I think of that scene they did in their restaurant where it's the two of them, and it's actually a dramatic scene where they're arguing about whether they're going to steal this thing or what's going to happen. And it's this really nice scene between. I mean, you can argue whether you think Bruce Willis is a good actor or not. I think Danny Aiello is a really good actor. It's. It's really well done. And it kind of goes to your point, like, there was a lot of stuff they could have done. Here's a guy who's just gotten out of prison and they're going to make him steal again. And he's obviously not happy about this. And we get. And, you know, there is sort of a broader topic there, but of course, then we get right back into the.
35:30
Jay
You know, I mean, that's. That's, you know, a minute removed from them smacking a guy in the head with a wine bottle. So.
35:36
Sam
Right.
35:37
Jay
Yeah, it's tough. It's. I wanted to ask this kind of. To go with, like, references and sort of dated references. Because he mentioned the Nintendo, the cappuccino references.
35:48
Case
Oh, I. So I have notes about hating it because they. They set out first with like, you and your girly drink or whatever, and then like it. Because it.
35:57
Jay
It.
35:58
Case
And this is probably partially because it. It really. They. They hit in. Hit it in. Before I was settled into this world being very over the top, where then Frank Stallone shoots out the coffee cup for the gag number two.
36:15
Sam
Gag number three, the bullet just goes nowhere too. It hits the cup and doesn't hit anyone.
36:22
Case
Right. Yeah, exactly. Just explodes.
36:24
Jay
Well, that's what it should have had.
36:25
Sam
Someone dropping in the background. That would have been great. They should have had someone drop in the background.
36:30
Case
I think that.
36:32
Sam
Yeah, they didn't, but.
36:37
Jay
But again, yeah, it's another funny bit, like you mentioned about, like, all the changes when he gets out of prison. He walks into that bar and he immediately. It's not what he recognizes. It's full of yuppies.
36:48
Case
Yeah, It's. It's like 90s cocktail culture, like the TGI Friday or like. Or like late 80s cocktail culture, really. Like.
36:57
Jay
Right. And again, they could have had this nice, serious moment where just let him drink his cappuccino. But no, they've got to have the. They've got to go right back to the gags.
37:05
Sam
Right.
37:05
Jay
Like, you can't waste any time. Yeah. I mean, to me, what's funny about that is, like, in 1991, when this movie came out for a lot of people, nobody knew what a cappuccino was. And I know that sounds insane to say in 2025, but they were worried nobody would get that reference. Nobody would understand. It was a coffee drink.
37:25
Case
I was thinking about that from. Because there's a bunch of things like that in this movie. Like, sushi's also sort of treated that way in this movie. Yeah, like. Like just. Just when. When it's like, oh, I need it. I. Like, I need exact change for the toll booth. When I was thinking, like, everything is easy pass now, like. Or some. Some variant of it. Yeah, yeah. Like, there were so many legit. Just like, little moments where I'm like, oh, not only is this, like the past, but it's like it's a moment in history that was even kind of struggling with its position in modernity. Being 1991, it feels like it's on the cusp of the 90s, but it hasn't actually fully broken through into being the 90s yet. I guess what I'm saying is that it's the Bush administration.
38:13
Jay
Yes. So they're still taking shots at Reagan America, like when he goes into the bar. But I mean, that would be gone probably within a year or two.
38:25
Case
Right.
38:26
Jay
They're still treating all of this foreign stuff as something weird and strange. But. And, and again, like, Starbucks doesn't explode for another two years, I think. I mean, I know it's crazy to say it's. At the time it was, you know, seeing a Starbucks was rare in 1991. But. But fast forward two or three years, they're everywhere. Right. So, yeah, you're right. Like, it's very much. It's really showing its age in a lot of these moments.
38:58
Case
Yeah. It's just shockingly specific to when it came out. All right, what did y' all think about the opening scene with Da Vinci? Because, like, it feels like something out of Monty Python.
39:12
Jay
I don't want to jump in, Sam, if you have something.
39:15
Sam
I'm like, kind of like. Well, I mean, like, I. I don't know. I. For me, the opening scenes kind of feel like 1991 to me. Like, I know that, like, feels weird, but, like, I don't know that feels different than any other movie doing, like, historic, like semi historical, silly stuff in the early 90s to me. Like, it doesn't necessarily feel super Python to me. It just kind of feels like. It actually feels more Princess Bride to me, actually. Like, there's like.
39:54
Case
Sure. The way in the way that it's shot and actually maybe that's part of it, which is that. So when I was watching it initially, because I. Again, I didn't know what the movie I was watching, what was it made me mad. And it felt like an unnecessary insert that was like, sort of constructed in a weird way. And maybe I wish that it was more truly Monty Python so that it would clue me in that this is supposed to be a farce.
40:22
Jay
See what I was thinking? So here's more behind the scenes crap that I remember. So the guy who does the narration, his name's William Conrad, and he did the narration for Rocky and Bullwinkle, which is why they hired him to do the narration for this movie. And all I was thinking as were thinking about how to improve this movie, I would have animated that whole sequence and made it feel like a Rocky and Bullwinkle movie. And then, like, you're saying I didn't have a clue what I was watching. So I'm getting angry if I'm getting a minute and a half of animation in sort of this very silly style that might have been more of a clue for you for what's happening. So I, I didn't get a Monty Python thing. I just got a missed opportunity.
41:04
Jay
Like, they could have done something with this. But I agree.
41:08
Case
I really like that. I really like that. Let's save that for pitch territory. But I really like that now that you suggested that way, that helps that helps that issue a lot for me, actually.
41:18
Jay
So. But, But, Sam, I think it's a great point. Like, it's very. A product of the time, like you do. I'm trying to, I'm trying to think of other.
41:29
Sam
I mean, there's other, like, like, I can't think of them like, off the top of my head, but, like, you know, between, like, the mid-80s and the early 90s, there was a lot of, like, narration into the past. I mean, actually, I think it's like more Mel Brooks, like, if I think about it, like History of the World.
41:52
Case
Like, okay, yeah, you know what? That's, that's more accurate. Yes.
41:54
Sam
Feels more that. Than I would say Monty Python, because, like, Monty Python has a very specific, very specific, like, feel and rhythm to it. But this feels more kind of like run of the mill. Like, now we open a book and we go into history. And, like, so to me, it's like more the feeling of, you know, kind of those kind of films, you know, like a Mel Brooks film or, like, even Princess Bride. Like, you have, like, this, like, introduction, fairy tale book kind of like, you know, thing. I mean, like, there were also a lot of, like, silly films like this in the late 80s, early 90s. Like, I think, like, I used to love this one. I used to watch it too often. Johnny Dangerously with Michael Keaton. Like, that movie was also ridiculous and terrible and that.
42:53
Jay
No, that's not terrible. Come on.
42:56
Sam
Well, well, I mean, again, I said I really liked it, but, like, just because you like something doesn't mean. I know, actually good. And I feel like this movie kind of stands in the long tradition of kind offbeat, ridiculous things. And I think even in that one, it had a little bit of narration like this. Not, not quite as direct as this one, because this is a literal story book. But, yeah, no, I, I, I, I feel very Milk Brooks about it. Not, Not. Yeah, but it feels of its time. Like, it feels very. Like when I started watching it, I was like, yeah, this feels like something I would have watched around when I was like, 10 you know,.
43:52
Case
No, the Mel Brooks comparison is really good. And now helps me kind of shape, like, the tone that I kind of would like some of this to have more of.
44:03
Jay
I was actually going to say your reference to Johnny Dangerously, like, the one thing that Johnny Dangerously did that this movie doesn't is it was just non stop jokes. So it's just boom, boom. And so, like, I think if it had been that style and even if the jokes aren't working, at least you're just hammering them over the head with it. And I think that's another thing. Like when I say, like, things I don't like about this movie, there's huge stretches of it where they give up that it's a comedy or they just, okay, we're not a comedy now. We're going to do something else. Whereas they could have done. They could have done both. And I'll give you an example of where it worked when they did both. The ambulance chase.
44:43
Sam
Yeah.
44:44
Jay
Which I really liked. I think it's one of the best parts of the movie and it keeps the comedy running through the whole thing. So you know that it's a comedy, but it's still this really big set piece. Set piece action sequence. You know, I mean, he sucks on the cigarette and toss it, tosses it away.
45:00
Case
Oh, menthol.
45:01
Jay
Yeah, It's a dumb joke, but it's like you're still entertained by it. And the guy with all this, you know, with all the needles shoved in his face, like, there's all of these gags that are going on. And I thought if the movie had hit that, it would have been so much better than how a lot of it doesn't work.
45:18
Sam
Yeah, yeah. Like more Kit Kat, less dramatic moments.
45:23
Jay
Yes, yes.
45:25
Case
More Kit Kat, less Butterfingers.
45:28
Sam
Oh, Butterfinger. Butterfingers offered to rape them. And I was like, I actually rewound and turned on the closed captions so that I could tell. Like, I was like, wait, did he say that? I was like, nope, have to rewind. Have to turn this on. Have to see that he actually said that. And he did. And then they gave him a children's book to read out loud to stop him from his terrible, violent thoughts. I was like, that's a line that didn't need to exist. Could have said anything else. Anything. Butterfingers. Anything.
46:07
Jay
1991, Where the height of comedy was a stupid rape joke. Yeah, it's, it's an uncomfortable. It's an uncomfortable moment. But I, I, I actually like the actor and I like having that stupid sort of character. It's just they gave him the worst lines and they gave him, like, if they just had him doing the. Yep. Coach. Like, he has no clue what's going on and he thinks he's in a football game. I think you got had a lot of fun with that. But he got, they just didn't. Yeah, they didn't do a lot with him.
46:35
Sam
I actually think when he came back, it was like, I think they betrayed us. And he had like all the arrows. I was like, oh, this is a good scene. This is who he should have been like, the whole time, you know?
46:45
Case
Yeah, yeah, totally.
46:47
Jay
Yeah.
46:48
Case
Yeah. This movie is uncomfortably crashed in some spots. And this might be just a part of it being 1991. But like, for example, when they have. That's a lot of Wong numbers joke, when the security guards are, like, looking at the phone book to keep themselves entertained, they have the musical. Sting is like the Dunn.
47:06
Jay
And.
47:08
Case
Like, that was the spot that I was like that. I'm very uncomfortable with that.
47:13
Jay
Do you want to know the worst part of that?
47:15
Case
Go ahead.
47:16
Jay
Okay, so I hate to admit this, so I have the DVD of this movie and I watch some of the director's commentary. He's proud of that. He's happy that's in the movie. And I'm, I. And I watched it and I'd completely forgotten. And they do that and I was like, ooh, oh. And then I went back and I rewatched the director's commentary and he's like, isn't this awesome? Like, we did this. And I'm like, yeah, you. I hope you recorded this 30 years ago because, Right.
47:45
Case
And like, yeah, like, admittedly it's 1991, but also it's 1991. One.
47:54
Sam
Yeah. I also really hated, like, the dog going after his, his man bits. And the joke that he made that was like, oh, it was just getting good looking. I know it was like false bravado. But I was like, bro, that's just not. No, we don't say that about dogs and animals. And that's weird. Bruce Willis. That is not a funny joke. That is not cool.
48:22
Jay
But nobody was going to tell him it wasn't a funny joke.
48:25
Case
Right, right, exactly. It just feels like so much. Yes. Men's sort of energy.
48:30
Sam
Yeah, yeah.
48:32
Jay
Like, I'm sure he did that and I'm sure it was improv that I'm sure everyone looked at him and said, oh, that's so funny. That's awesome. And a lot of movies in the 80s and 90s, when you go back and rewatch them and you have guys who aren't as funny as they think they are, and you watch this, you go, how? Why is this in this film? Like, why did it make the cut? And you realize, I mean, perfect example. Every single time Sylvester Stallone tries to be funny, it's you. Like, you're like, who? Like, why was there not somebody there going, this is not good. Like, hire. Like, that's why you hire a comedy writer. Like, it's really simple.
49:09
Case
Yeah, that honestly is like my biggest note about this movie. Like, if the script, like, I hate the writing, like the actual, like, one liners and so forth in this, like, if they had someone who just like went through and did like a writing pass of just like punching up the jokes and just like putting it, like making the dialogue sharper, this movie would be so much more. So much more of what it could be. And the fact of the matter is, like, I just like, find myself generally disliking all the characters just because they're not particularly good at being as funny as they should be.
49:48
Jay
So that's why I think some of them, like, I think those scenes with. And I mean, I'm completely guessing on this. Like, Sandra Bernhard's a genuinely funny person and I think she's doing as much as she can with this. And the script might be letting her down, or based on the stories I've heard, she's hating every moment of this job. So she's just trying to get through it. Richard Grant is overacting to the extreme and having a blast with it. But I think every time you see Willis and Aiello, they're doing whatever they want and nobody's telling them to stop. And I don't even think a writing pass would have solved it. Like, they're ignoring the script. They're just, we're funny. We're going to do this. And nobody could say you're not. Yeah, Like, I like.
50:36
Jay
And the reality of it is, has there ever been a moment in your life where you watched a Danny Aiello movie and said, wow, he's a comedic genius. Like, he's so funny. Or, wow, he would have been great in like a Judd Apatow movie? Like, that's never occurred to me. That is not his wheelhouse. But in this movie, he's acting like he's like the best improviser to come off Second City.
50:59
Sam
Right? Yeah.
51:01
Jay
You Know, and I say the same thing about Willis. I think he's really funny when people give him the lines. But I. I don't think. I mean, it's a skill that I just don't think he has. Whereas if you had put. I mean, I'm trying to think of, like, if you would say. If, say, for this movie, it had been, let's see, who's a comedian in the 90s? Because I've got to go back. And so if this had been, say, like, Eddie Murphy and Bill Murray, and you're like, okay, the two of you can just riff like mad. You leave them alone.
51:31
Case
Right?
51:32
Jay
That's not these two guys. Right. And by the way, much better movie. I think if it's any Murphy.
51:39
Case
I know, I know.
51:40
Jay
Like, that's.
51:41
Case
Thank you for saying Eddie Murphy. Because, like, I. I was thinking Murphy in terms of just, like, man, I wish that he would do, like, the writing pass on this one. Like, yeah.
51:53
Jay
Or like, any SNL guys. Like, bring a couple of guys who had been working at SNL and just say, like, okay, we just want you to. Or. I know. I think in the early 90s, like, Patton Oswald was doing this. Like, he was another guy. I'm like, bring him in.
52:04
Sam
He can.
52:05
Jay
I think he would fit the comedy on this. Let him just punch up the script. But instead, nothing would have saved it. Like, yeah, on the set, it's literally Willis going, let's try this. Let's try this. And then they've got to revisit, you know, like, relight everything and reshoot it. And they all think they're the smartest guys in the room and they're the funniest guys in the room. So is it bad that, like, my first. Another pass is to remove the guy who's the reason why the movie got made?
52:31
Case
I know. That's the problem. I know. Like, that. And that's, like, legitimately, this is the thing that we tackle with when we talk about a movie. Like, this is just like when we did Judge Dread, and it's like, so. So who could convince Stone to just say, like, maybe the helmet stays on for more of the movie? And.
52:52
Jay
And no, like.
52:53
Case
And. And nobody could, you know, we. We. So I. I was gonna say I.
52:59
Jay
Had one more question because it sounded like you're gonna wrap up. And I just wanted to get both of your takes on Andy McDow drugged, pretending to be a dolphin while they're trying to interrogate her thoughts.
53:16
Case
So in general, I liked Andy McDowell's character. Like, I. The fact that she was generally competent and able. So I, I will take it back. She, I guess was the most competent character in this movie, which is fitting.
53:29
Sam
True.
53:30
Case
Yeah. Like, she was able to generally save herself from situations. Now she did end up being damseled quite a few times, but again, she was able to like pulled herself out of most of the situations and then like had decent one liners in there.
53:46
Sam
I, I mean, there's some strange stuff, but I think that was the script itself, you know, like.
53:51
Case
Right. Yeah, yeah. Like, I, I also have some like, Catholic trauma to work out when dealing with this movie because I grew up like, super Catholic. And like. Yeah, there's just like points there where it's just like, like the light up crucifix intercoms.
54:12
Sam
They're watching you, Case. They're watching you.
54:17
Jay
All right, so this is, this. I was also brought up super Catholic, so let's not turn this into a support group at this point. But I know what you're saying. There's those moments where you're like, yeah, this is awkward.
54:30
Case
Right.
54:32
Jay
So I, I just wanted to say, so picture Andie McDowell. She is the third person they hired for this, the first one, Isabella Rossellini. So now picture her doing this movie and I can't, like, I, it breaks my brain. Like I can't picture her doing this farce. The second actress they picked, Maruska Detmers, who's I think a Dutch actress, and she, luckily for her, had an injured back and couldn't do it. And I don't think she's done, she's maybe done one or two English language movies. So I don't know how she does this dialogue. And then before they hired Andie McDowell, they actually reached out to Madonna and picture her now doing this kind of.
55:17
Case
Yeah, I really can't picture Madonna.
55:19
Sam
No, no.
55:21
Jay
Like, so basically they had no lead actress and they were already filming and they're just reaching out to everybody, like, who's willing to come do this. And I, I really think Annie McDowell was the only one to say yes, like everybody else, or they threw a ton of money at her. I, I give her credit on this. I mean, how many movies have you seen Andie McDowell in where you go, wow, for a model, like, she's good at standing there and looking pretty and not really bringing a ton to this. But she committed, like you mentioned before, how everybody's getting, maybe went too far into the farce in the camp. She's like, I'm Gonna go all the way. I understand. This is a dumb, silly movie, and I'm just gonna lean into it. So I kind of give her.
56:07
Jay
She was actually one of the. One of my favorite parts of the movie, which. I don't know if I've ever said that about andy McDowell movie before. Like, I think of, like, Groundhog Day, where it's a great movie, but, I mean, you could have replaced her with a dozen actresses, and I don't think the movie changes. You can disagree.
56:25
Case
Yeah, no, that's. That's fair.
56:26
Jay
Yeah. Like. Whereas this one, like, she's in. In a lot of scenes, she's the best part of the scene. Like, she's. She's. And I'm like, wow, she can do comedy. Like, maybe not as well as a lot of other. But, like, she's holding her own against a lot of really good actors. And that's another part. There's really good actors in this movie and a lot of supporting.
56:46
Case
I know the cast is shockingly stacked.
56:50
Jay
Like, you have a young David Caruso who nobody knew, who's stealing scenes left and right. You've got James Coburn, who's just. I loved him in every scene he's in. He's just, like, the coolest guy in the room, and. Which is not good, because Bruce Willis should be the coolest guy in the room every one of those scenes. And again, I mentioned them before every moment with Richard Grant and Sandra Bernhardt. I love the way those two of them are going. They're chewing scenery like crazy, but they steal every scene to the point where at the end you're like, I kind of don't want them to die. I really want them to keep going or show me more of them.
57:32
Case
Yeah.
57:33
Sam
And I even think that, for the most part, even the gang. I mean, with. With Butterfinger's lines, you know, as a caveat, being inappropriate. But I think that, first of all, I thought that their introduction was really funny in terms of, like, their names. It's Snickers, Kit Kat, Butterfinger and Almond Joy, which is hilarious. We've got all the candies. And they're all relieved to have that because they had a more terrible series of code names before that. And, like, honestly, like, those actors, they work really well together in their scenes, in the scenes of chaos that they sew. I mean, like, I was sad, actually, to see Snickers and Almond Joy go when they finally went, like, they had to, like, it was their time to exit. But I actually thought, like, overall, like, the chemistry of the supporting Cast together, talking.
58:29
Sam
I mean, even when like Snickers and Almond Joy handed Butterfingers the book and he starts reading it out loud and they're like, to yourself in your head, like, it was a good line reading of that. Right? Like, just like the real annoyance with him being like, oh my God, just please be quiet. So I think like, in general, like, the cast is the reason why there's any joy to be found out of this farcical film, because it's not. And I even think, like, Willis and Nael have good chemistry together when they're on screen. Like, not everything lands, but I do think that they have a really good rapport. And you believe that they've been friends for a long time. You really believe in this relationship. And that definitely helps the film as well, you know?
59:22
Jay
Well, that's because they were. Yeah, yeah, they were friends in real life. That's how Aiello got the job. More background stuff that I know. Sorry.
59:31
Case
Yeah, like, which works really well for the movie. Like, they have a really good chemistry there.
59:37
Jay
It.
59:38
Case
And it circles back to this whole. Man, I wish that someone had the clout to force them to respond to an editing pass.
59:45
Sam
Like, yeah, like just.
59:49
Case
Or a punch up pass. I should say, like just, just give them some better dialogue to work with. Because, like, if everything was closer to like Annie McDowell's character and like the jokes that are sort of like built on the, like taking Catholicism as like a farcical level, like, to the effectiveness that it is in this movie, like, would be a better movie. Just in general. It's just. I just want punching up of all the dialog and the fact that the two characters who should like the best B.O. This movie, like Bruce Willis and Jenny Ao, like, they don't have the best dialogue to go with it. Like, the chemistry is good.
01:00:36
Sam
Yeah, just the chemistry. Really.
01:00:39
Jay
Yep.
01:00:40
Sam
Yeah. I, I do appreciate that they did give Corbin some time to do some martial arts. I thought that was cool. Just like, as a. Yeah, just like, oh, that's cool. He didn't do anything a lot with it, but it was like fun that they like let him display that and kind of give a moment for that, like a little nod. And I also agree that Grant and Bernhard were doing the most and I actually really appreciated it because if they weren't the over the top villains that they played, this movie definitely wouldn't have worked. Like, they needed to be at that high crazy level all of the time in order to make this work in Any way, shape, or form.
01:01:29
Jay
Yep, I agree.
01:01:31
Case
And we haven't actually brought up Alfred the butler, just who I want to shout out, just because of that Street Fighter energy. I was like, man, there's some Vega stuff going on.
01:01:40
Sam
His weapon was very cool. His weapon was very cool. Yeah, we got introduced to it very early on, Right?
01:01:49
Case
Those. Those retracting goddamn knives that, like. Yes, very cool.
01:01:53
Sam
Very, very cool.
01:01:54
Case
Like, maybe that's the thing. Like, if I knew that this movie just devolved into Street Fighter from the very beginning. Like, if it was Hudson Hawk, the world warrior,.
01:02:06
Jay
Maybe that should be on the. It should be like, if on the streaming service, it's like, think about Street Fighter as you're watching this movie, and everything will better.
01:02:13
Case
Right?
01:02:14
Jay
Yeah.
01:02:16
Case
Hello, Ken.
01:02:17
Jay
Yeah.
01:02:19
Case
Anyway, so I. I think we have hit a good spot here, however, where we should take a pause and we should shout out one of the shows on our network, maybe Long Live the Legion.
01:02:30
Sam
Just.
01:02:30
Case
Just throwing that one out there as a. As a suggestion for what the ad might be. We'll find out what our editor goes with when. When the ads roll, but when we come back, we will talk about what could have been done at the time of production. And I have a feeling that's going to be a collaborative one on this one, but we shall see. Hey, Jay.
01:02:50
Jay
Hey, Jim.
01:02:51
Case
You're a fan of the Legion of Superheroes, right?
01:02:53
Jay
Yeah. I've been reading their adventures for decades.
01:02:56
Case
Me too. It was tough at first with all the characters, but now I think I'm an expert.
01:03:00
Jay
It's not too hard to get into the Legion. And to make it even easier, we have a podcast called Long Live the Legion. We talk about different aspects of all its history to help you out.
01:03:10
Case
So whether you're a new reader in the Legion Academy or have your own flight ring or anywhere in between, Long Live the Legion podcast should be on your playlist. And we're back. All right, Jay. So we have a rule, and we have an ethos on the show, and the ethos is that we are trying to be realistic to the time of production. So things like, let's be honest here, like, the Bruce Willis of it all, we gotta have a really good explanation if we're gonna, like, try to force that one. Like. Like, how is this movie getting made, period? Like, kind of level of, like, working on it.
01:03:52
Case
And I realized that, like, we're pushing the limits of reality just by virtue of the nature of the game, but we are just trying to, like, see how clever we can be and how few strings we pull on this one. Meanwhile, the actual rule of the show is that I am not allowed to go before Sam. So Sam can go first, Sam can go second, I can go second or third. I just can't go first because I can't precede Sam in this situation. So you can go first if you want. Or this could be a very big collaborative thing because, like, my notes are very much just like fucking punch up script here like that. And as we've established, might not really work to be able to override the power of the stardom of Willis and IO. How do you want this to go?
01:04:38
Jay
Let's start with Sam. I think that's the best way to go because I don't want to go first either. Because again, I'm the one who's watched this movie multiple times and has many thoughts.
01:04:53
Sam
Oh, boy. This movie was really hard for me to try to figure out how I would fix it. I honestly don't know because this is like. This is like one of those weird films where I kind of like, is this good? No. Is it bad, though? No. Like, it is like one of those films where, like, I think that, like, I think that Case is right in the fact that the jokes needed to land more. They needed to be punched up. But in general, I don't mind that they're trying to have heart, and I don't necessarily mind tonal shifts as much. I think for the American market, again, I said that this probably would work in Hong Kong because it would, but. Because I've seen some really crazy stuff.
01:05:51
Sam
But I think that, like, I think for the American market, they needed to decide whether they wanted this to be really, like, more cartoony or if they wanted it to be more violent. Because there are some really shocking violent moments in this film that are kind of like. Like literally my husband and I were sitting there, we're like, whoa. And it's not because it was, like, grotesquely violent. It's just the violence came out of nowhere. Like, it was unexpected. Like the first scene where the parole officer is double crossed by the butler, where we learn about a very cool weapon up his sleeve, the retractable knives. That happened so quickly. He's just like, I got your cut for you. And then he just slashes his throat and it's like, holy moly.
01:06:49
Sam
And so I think that this movie goes from diabolical violence to Looney Tunes violence. And it can't make up its mind what it's going to be, whether it's going to be one or the Other, I actually think that it should lean into the farcical. I don't want to. I don't want to get rid of the blades, but I think maybe the cut could just be somewhere else. Maybe not across his neck, maybe not such a shocking slash. I just think that the movie has more merit in leaning into the joke and going more Mel Brooks and going more towards, like, the funny, slapstick Pink Panther realm, because it's already there. We already have the jazz elements. I actually like that, like, these two men have the timing of the song so well that they can sing it to themselves to do it.
01:07:54
Sam
Like, I actually, like, was like, it's a musical, you know, like, my husband was laughing at me. But I think that's kind of like one of those things where I think if they had leaned into it, at least the feeling of, like, the audience could have stayed into the moment. Would I have missed the. You can't go to your hat convention later? No, because honestly, I had to rewind that. And I was like, what is that joke? Like? I was like, wait, what did he say? I was like, oh, is that common at conventions? So I just think that in terms of that, like, the. The jokes need to be punched up, but also I would just. I would cut my losses and kind of pull back on some of the more bloody. I would keep most of the explosions.
01:08:51
Sam
I would keep anything that Acme would do in the film. Okay. Like, I literally. Even the stabbing, like, with the injectables, the syringes, I would keep that because we don't really see a lot of gore in that. Still feels like Looney Tunes to me. But all of, like, the cutting, the slicing, the stabbing, I might take out, I would keep, like, guns ricocheting. I would play up, like, the scene in the bar. Like I said, you know, we can shoot the cappuccino, fine. We're going to go straight to comedy. We can even keep the bottle because I think that's still like, very Looney Tunes esque. But I think that when the gun, when the cup breaks, you gotta see someone in the background. Like, it's gotta feel more like Naked Gun or any of those movies like Airplane. So, like, the.
01:09:43
Sam
The prop has to play through. So, like, if it shoots like the.
01:09:47
Case
Mel Brooks that you said before, like that. That's exactly the tone there.
01:09:50
Sam
Yeah, Brooks, Airplane, you know, all of those. Like, you know, someone in the background and him just sauntering up. Because the thing is that first of all is. Is charming. So play up that charm and let him still be that charming straight man to, like, the. The ridiculousness that's happening around him. And I think that is going to keep the tone where you want it and kind of just. You can keep the bookend. And yes, Iola has to live. He has to live because that makes the movie work. The shrug at the end, like, that's what happened. Perfect ending, like, that's fine. But I think if we lean in to that, you know, maybe hire Mel Brooks to punch this up and put him on set and give him.
01:10:47
Sam
Put more star power than Bruce Willis on set with a comedy legend, and maybe we fix this movie. All right, my turn over, because that's all I got.
01:11:01
Jay
That's good. That's good. Yeah, you covered a few things.
01:11:04
Sam
Paul, Mel Brooks, Willis around, and you'll be fine.
01:11:11
Jay
I can't picture Mel Brooks and Joel Silver being in a room together. So.
01:11:15
Sam
No, I can't either. I cannot either.
01:11:19
Case
So if you can't get Brooks, get Lloyd Kaufman.
01:11:25
Jay
Nice, nice.
01:11:27
Case
You won't give a fuck.
01:11:31
Jay
Case, would you like to go next?
01:11:32
Case
Yeah, I can go, but it's because I feel like I'm such a fucking hack right now. I've got nothing in terms of, like, legitimate changes that I think, like, could actually occur. I loved the suggestion of the animated opening because, like, my notes were just like. Like lose the. The Da Vinci scene, but, like, upon the. Upon suggesting that it was like, animated in a Rocky and Bullwinkle style, I all of a sudden, like, completely reframed that in my brain and I'm like, no, you know what? That's actually so much better. That fixes so much of what felt unnecessary. Because if you were like, here's. Here's a movie I'm surprised we haven't actually brought up yet slash series of books. The Da Vinci Code is a scenario that is similar in, like, very big, broad strokes to this.
01:12:23
Sam
Like.
01:12:25
Case
A lost machine of da Vinci or a codex of Da Vinci is available, and we have to solve puzzles to get to it. Now, the puzzles are very different and one is more cerebral, but it's like, I hesitate to really emphasize that, but was pitched as being a cerebral thing. You were supposed to be like, I'm so clever because I'm keeping up with the book is how that was supposed to work. I think that's what I was expecting when I started watching this movie. And even the fact that even the weird Mel Brooksian flashback didn't dissuade me of that idea. I think just pushing just a Little bit further helps a lot there. I think that, yeah, they just need someone to punch up the script. It's just. There's.
01:13:18
Case
And I realized that, like, in terms of just being allowed to sort of say what they think is, like, a good one liner or so forth is. Is going to dominate a lot of that. But, like. And again, I know. I know how Willis is with when he has someone to come in and punch up the script because again, we brought up An Evening With Kevin Smith and we know, like, in that he talks about his Die Hard 4 experience. And so on the one hand, if it is. If it is the appropriate writer who is able to flatter Willis appropriately. And so, like, we just need to pick someone who is so fucking charming and funny that he's able to suggest things that Willis finds funny and actually are funny, then. Then that would have been possible.
01:14:07
Case
But I don't know who that writer was at the time. Shane Black.
01:14:11
Jay
That's not a bad actually.
01:14:13
Case
That's actually not a bad thought right there.
01:14:14
Jay
Yeah. Yeah.
01:14:15
Case
And wouldn't have been out of the question. Yeah. Ooh, I like that.
01:14:18
Jay
Yeah, that's not a bad one, because that's one I was struggling with because I'm. I agree with Sam completely. They needed a better director. And I agree with you completely. They needed better writers. Giving. Giving these two guys who weren't even 30 and had done, like, one movie or two movies and putting them into this. Into this situation. I don't know if it's. I don't know if it's Mel Brooks. I. But I think if you had said, we're gonna get Shane Black to write this, and he knows how to deal with egos. And if they had. I'm trying to think of a comedy director at the time who would have actually agreed to do this. Who would have been smart enough to film each scene three different ways. Like one of. Let's do what's on the page.
01:15:03
Jay
Let's just get this down so we have a base, okay? Now let's have some fun with it. And I don't think the director knew to, like, hey, here's how we do this. And it's great. It's easy for me to say this because, you know, it's the Judd Apatow method that we've all seen work over and over again, but. And I don't know in 91 if they knew that, but, yeah, like, that's where I start. Or like, Ivan Reitman, like, there's a guy, like, as a director, he's Big enough that you could have said, okay, here's a big comedy director, he did movies that you loved like Stripes and like Ghostbusters. And he gets the comedy element of it. And he also knows how to shoot this and he knows how to handle it. So. Because, yeah, you can't replace Willis, you can't replace Aiello.
01:15:47
Jay
You've got to have somebody better in charge. Can anybody think of any other names while we're just completely spitballing guys?
01:15:53
Case
No, but I like this. I like a Shane Black writing pass with the Ivan Reitman in the director's seat. That is some big pivots. But I feel like this is a movie where the writing and directors are probably more flexible than the stars and producers.
01:16:13
Jay
I'll give you another director name, Carl Reiner. Like he's done all the Steve, he's done all the Steve Martin stuff. He knows farce, he knows big broad comedy. He would have never put up with Willis's. But like, that's the kind of guy who could sell or even like Rob Reiner go with his son. Like somebody who's big enough that Willis has to listen to him and that, you know, I mean, you're like, look, the budget was already insane. You just, it's like you spend the money before rather than waste it later.
01:16:43
Case
Right?
01:16:44
Jay
Yeah, yeah.
01:16:46
Case
And that is like the benefit of it being such a big star driven movie that the budget gives us a little bit of flexibility in terms of our conversation here. Like, it isn't hamstrung by that. So some of these of these pitches are not insane. Like they're not out of the question like that. You, you could have Shane Black come.
01:17:08
Jay
In and I'll give you another one as well. Like, you know, we've talked about so much about how we didn't know what kind of movie this was when we first started watching it. But imagine if it said Bruce Willis in a Ivan Reitman movie that's a comedy. Like, I don't even have to think about it. I know exactly what this is going to be. So I'm going in expecting silly, I'm not expecting.
01:17:33
Sam
Right.
01:17:33
Jay
Whereas like directed by Michael Lehman, you're like, I have no idea what I'm getting because I don't know who this guy is.
01:17:39
Case
Right, right. And it's called Hudson Hawk, which just like feels like it's going to be an action movie.
01:17:44
Jay
Yeah. And it was marketed as an action movie. Like they sold it as an action movie, which is the other Reason why everybody was pissed off.
01:17:53
Case
Right?
01:17:54
Jay
Yeah. So, anything else? Any other suggestions before I start rambling?
01:17:58
Case
No, go for it. Because, like. Like I said, I feel like just a giant hack right now. Like, I am a traitor to my own premise.
01:18:05
Jay
I don't think so. This is one of those movies, as Sam said, it's so hard to figure out. And especially when you're tied with Willis, too. So I mentioned the animated stuff. I think we solve a lot of problems if right from the beginning we say it's a PG13 movie. Because now we have to go into the farce. We don't get the big bloody violence. We've got to. And, you know, it's the early 90s where they're. It's literally in our movie just because they're saying fuck over and over again. And if you just get rid of that, you could say, like, yeah, it's not Die Hard. This is for a younger audience. And again, you're getting the message across. And I think if they had said that from the beginning, this is a PG movie.
01:18:51
Jay
The other one as well is you lean into the friendship of Willis and Aiello. So, like, the one scene that I thought that worked the worst was the Vatican theft, because Aiello's not in it. He's in the first theft. He's in the third scene where they go attack the. The castle. But I think the second one, because that you want those two, like, that should be one of the strengths of the movie. Like, we're here to see these two guys hang out. And as we're punching up dialogue, it's more chance to punch it up. And then we also get another song, which, you know, I think we all wanted as well.
01:19:28
Case
Right?
01:19:28
Jay
Right. So I want that. I want him in there because he kind of disappears and we. And then he kind of shows up. Yeah, I screwed you over. And. Okay, like, why? Like, what's going on? Whereas if he had been there from the beginning, and then maybe we can lean into a triangle, right. With him andy McDowell and Bruce Willis once. Like, there's so much more you could have done there. And it never made sense. Like, is he working with the. With the Mayflowers? Okay. Why is he betraying them? Okay. What's going on? Like, I mean, again, the movie doesn't make sense anyways, but at least that way you're sort of straightening it out. Like, you're simplifying it.
01:20:05
Case
Right.
01:20:05
Jay
And I think if you just said to the two of them, like, we're gonna give you. I'M gonna go really old school and I apologize. Have you ever seen the Thin Man? Really old movies?
01:20:19
Case
No.
01:20:20
Jay
Okay. William Powell, Myrna Loy, like I'm going black and white, Sam. Do you know what I'm talking about?
01:20:24
Sam
Yes. Yes.
01:20:26
Jay
Okay. That those movies are what the dialogue should have been in this where it's literally just. And there's no like, there's almost no time for breathing and it's just comedy. Like it's just boom, boom, boom. And it's super funny. And like when you mentioned Johnny Dangerously, that's the other thing I was thinking this should just be a like rapid fire dialogue and that's how these movies should be. Except when they're singing, of course. So when these two are together it's just, you know, go, go. And you know, if you get somebody like Shane Black or you get a writer, I mean I hate to pull out Moonlighting, but if you got the guy who wrote Moonlighting, because that's kind of what they were doing and just said, hey, we're going to do this again, then the audience knows what they're getting.
01:21:11
Jay
And I think it's a more fun film. Yeah, those are my big ones. Like it's just make it a buddy movie. Make it a, you know, have some more fun with it. Make it for kids. Like make it so that you can watch it with your 10 year old and you don't feel bad about it. Case you're going to appreciate this. Like you're going to get movies as your kids get older. You're going to go, I can watch it with them. This is awesome. If they had done that with you with this like and it's a movie for adults but you can still watch with kids. It would have been perfect. I think it really, it would have been, well, not perfect. It would have been much better.
01:21:49
Case
So yeah, no, I, I think you really nailed to two very big points. The, the rating prize. Like we talked about the violence but yeah, like toning that down certainly does a lot for this movie. And, and then yeah, I, I actually had a note that the fact that the robberies with. Or secret cons that they pull together with musical numbers is it doesn't hit the rule of three. We only get two and that we needed one more. And so like yeah, that being the Vatican would. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Like, so you've hit like just completely the nail on the head for those 22 points. Like just Dramatically right there. And I think, yeah, bravo.
01:22:36
Jay
Thank you very much. I will take my virtual bow now and then. So. Yeah, no, I mean, I hate to say I've spent way too much time thinking about this movie, but I've probably spent way too much time thinking about this movie.
01:22:54
Case
Well, now I'm going to be thinking more about this movie because it's going to be lingering in my brain as we. We put this out into the world with podcast time. So I'm gonna have to, like, listen to clips, and I'm gonna listen to the episode, and I'm gonna be thinking about this goddamn movie, which is frustratingly weird, but interesting, fascinating but flawed. Exactly what we talk about on this show.
01:23:20
Jay
And that's why. That's why I picked it. The fascinating but flawed part of it. So, yeah, it's. Again, I'm just glad I. We didn't have a podcast where you two came in and said, why the hell did you pick this film? This is so horrible. I couldn't get through it. So thank you.
01:23:38
Case
No, there's only. There's only been one movie where I've been, like, truly angry at the person for making me watch it, and that was Master of Disguise.
01:23:46
Jay
Oh, I. I thankfully never saw it, but I feel like I did. I worked with a guy, and speaking of movies with kids, his kid loved it, so he had to watch that movie every day, and he would come into work and just quote it.
01:24:00
Case
Oh, man.
01:24:01
Jay
And to the point where I'm like, I think I've seen this movie and I don't need to see it because it sounds horrible, but. Yeah, yeah. So.
01:24:10
Case
Oh, no. I like, just. Oh, no. Just my experience with my daughter right now being obsessed with the material that she is. I. Oh, no. I can't imagine if it was Master of the Sketch. No, no. You're breaking the brand again.
01:24:31
Jay
I got cards. That was my movie that I had to watch 50 times to the point where, like 10 years ago, I could probably just recite the dialogue as were watching it. That's better than Master of Disguise. So I'll take Cars over that.
01:24:45
Case
Yeah.
01:24:47
Jay
But by the time you've watched it 30 times, it doesn't matter what the movie is. You're either going to like it or you're just going to hate it. Whether you like, you'll just. Or you'll find new joke. You'll find ways to entertain yourself.
01:24:57
Sam
So.
01:24:59
Case
As apparently you did with this movie.
01:25:01
Jay
Yeah, exactly. I'll go with that.
01:25:04
Case
Yeah. So on that note, Jay, thank you for bringing this Movie.
01:25:09
Jay
You're welcome. Thank you for having me. This has been a great pleasure. And like I say, I have been from the moment I discovered this podcast. I was secretly not so secretly hoping that you were going to ask me to do this. Not Hudson Hawk, but just to be on here. So I do really appreciate this. It's been a pleasure and an honor for me.
01:25:26
Case
Well, it's been great having you on. Sam.
01:25:30
Sam
Yes.
01:25:31
Case
Before we forget, how would you rate this on your chore scale?
01:25:36
Sam
Okay. I think that this is a great movie to have in the background while you are sweeping or mopping your floor, in and out of the room, that kind of thing. I don't think this is, like, one that you want to sit around for, like, folding laundry, but I do think that this is a good, like, just background because you're going to get some nice singing, you know, you're going to get some good songs. You might walk in during one of the, like, really funny jokes and then walk out for all the bad ones. So I think this is like a general, like, walking around your house in the background kind of movie. But not for a sitting chore, for a moving chore, washing dishes, you know, like, just like you're in and out of the living room kind of thing. Yeah, so that's.
01:26:22
Sam
That's where it's on. Yeah, yeah.
01:26:25
Case
Okay.
01:26:26
Sam
Yeah, Yeah.
01:26:26
Case
I like the specificity of that. That it makes a lot of sense because, like, yeah, you know, if you're vacuuming or something and you're like, you're able to listen to it and, like, you turn off the vacuum, you're back in and.
01:26:36
Sam
Yeah, like, yeah, you know, like, sometimes, like, you know, a joke about rape is coming. Put on the vacuum. Put it on loud. Walk into the other room, get something else, you know, awkward love scene. You're like, oh, that's okay. I've got some garbage to take downstairs and I'm going to come back up and we're going to be back in it. We're going to be jumping out windows and, you know, getting saved by the Catholic church, and it's going to be hilarious. It's going to be amazing. And then, you know, we're gonna break into a castle and sing a great song and, you know, then we're gonna leave when a dog gets, you know, thrown out a window, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's an in and out kind of chore movie.
01:27:23
Jay
I like that. That's good.
01:27:25
Case
All right. Well, yeah, I think that covers our conversation about Hudson Hawk. Again, Jay, thank you for bringing this. Thank you for being here. Why don't you tell the listeners at home where people can find you, follow you, and what you've got going on.
01:27:40
Jay
Perfect. So, first of all, I've got a bi weekly podcast called Long Live the Legion where we talk about the Legion of Superheroes. We are celebrating our first anniversary. Really excited that we've been going for so long. It's a blast. We're having more fun than we did before. It's me and Jim Fetters. And if you've ever been interested in the Legion of Superheroes, and you probably will because they have a new book coming out, ours is the podcast to listen to. Speaking of the Legion, I also write a weekly column where I go back and reread and review the. The old issues. That is at jmlonglivethelegion.blogspot.com if you want to find me on Blue Sky, I am at J. McKernan BSKY Social. And if you find me on Discord and I'm also, I'm on the Copov Network and I'm also on the Legion.
01:28:30
Jay
The Legion Discord server. Or if you want to find me on Reddit, my username is Drake Burrows.
01:28:36
Case
Yes, because no one can guess who your favorite legionnaire is.
01:28:40
Jay
No, not at all. No one will have a clue. Sam, you want to try?
01:28:47
Case
We'll just let the joke linger. Anyway. No, no. Everyone should check out your blog. But, but everyone definitely should check out Long Live Legion. It's. It's a really fun podcast I've been on a couple of times now. It is a, a show that I, because I knew Jim before the show launched, so when he told me that it was happening, I was like, that is fantastic. Because I loved Legion of Superheroes. I think it is a really cool superhero team that is so. Comic Book is wonderful in that regard. And you guys do a fantastic job breaking down these, like, facets of this Byzantine lore of these characters in a way that is very easy to follow. And, and so it's good conversations that you guys have. And I'm so glad that you're part of the network and that.
01:29:38
Case
Yeah, that, that's, yeah, really cool stuff.
01:29:42
Jay
Thank you very much.
01:29:43
Sam
So.
01:29:43
Case
Thanks, Sam. Where can people find you and follow you?
01:29:47
Sam
Well, they can find me whenever these episodes drop or app episodes. And other than that, you know, they can. I am lurking on our Discord. I may not say anything, but I see what you're saying about us. I see it and I appreciate it. And if there are any complaints about anything I said today or in any past episodes or in any future episodes, you can take all of those complaints directly to the Case and you can find Case at.
01:30:19
Case
Well if you have the pre crime disputes about the future that you want to bring my way, you can find me. The Discord is a really good place to find me. So the Certain POV Discord. You can find a link in our show notes or on our website certainpow.com that is without a doubt the easiest place to contact. I'm very approachable there and I I try to interject wherever I can in the conversations but I'm certainly reading everything just because I I habitually look at my notifications like that. Otherwise you can find me on other social media platforms Aiken with the exception of Instagram where I am holding on 4 dear life to my aim screen name from high school which is Wow, I just botched it for I th I never do that. Oh my God.
01:31:04
Case
Which is quetzalcoatl5q u e t Z A L C o a T L5 because I was pretentious in high school as well. Anyway, so you can find me there. You should also check out our Patreon. We have a Patreon going for the show now and it is, it's wonderful that we have people actually helping, you know, keep the lights on that. That's a really awesome thing that we actually are getting a little bit of revenue and it'd be nice if we had more. So you should consider signing up for it. Even if you. Even if you sign up at the free tier. We are trying to put out a ton of good content. I do two essays a week, one on a nerdy topic of my choice and another on a TTRPG topic.
01:31:47
Case
But if you are signed up at the paid tiers, you get advance clips of episodes, you get advanced screenings of the various videos that are going up. And at the highest tiers that the executive producer tier, you get shout outs at the end of every episode, such as our executive producer tier which is today. Micah McCaw, Carter Hallett, Sean Muir Lee Gregor Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe masterpiero, Casey and Nancy Aiken, Adam Sampter and Keith Lettinen. If you would like to join those ranks, please consider it. We would love to have you in that support. It means the world to us. Otherwise you can find this show wherever you get your podcasts. Statistically it is probably on YouTube these days because that's where I see a lot of the views coming in.
01:32:36
Case
And that means you are aware that the YouTube channel has a ton of great stuff from certain POV. All kinds of videos, all kinds of stuff that I've been doing. And you can find it all@YouTube.com certainpowmedia Anyway, that is, I think, enough shilling for the moment. Thank you everyone for listening. Tune in next time for our next episode. Sam, what have we got coming up next time?
01:33:01
Sam
Next time we'll be talking about Highlander 2 the Quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.
01:33:12
Jay
Thanks for listening to Certain Point of.
01:33:14
Case
View's Another Pass podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on itunes.
01:33:21
Sam
Just go to certainpov.com Netherpass is a certain POV production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Richardi. Our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.
01:33:42
Case
CPOV certainpov.com.