Another Pass at Sphere - with Jesse Fresco

Case and Sam are joined by Jesse Fresco to take another pass at Sphere, the 1998 Michael Crichton adaptation starring Dustin Hoffman, Sharon Stone, and Samuel L. Jackson. They dig into a killer sci-fi premise, a stacked cast, an undersea mystery, and why the finished movie somehow feels smaller, flatter, and less frightening than all of those ingredients suggest.

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Another Pass Full Episode Originally aired: September 18, 2026

Music by Vin Macri and Matt Brogan

Podcast Edited by Sophia Ricciardi

Certain Point Of View is a podcast network brining you all sorts of nerdy goodness! From Star Wars role playing, to Disney day dreaming, to video game love, we've got the show for you! Learn more on our website: https://www.certainpov.com

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PODCAST SHOWS: ▶ Another Pass - https://www.certainpov.com/another-pass-podcast

⏱️ Chapters

00:21 Welcome and Guest Intro

01:38 Introducing Sphere

02:07 Why Jesse Chose the Movie

02:46 The Book and Roadside Picnic

04:24 Book vs. Movie Perspective

05:16 Beth in the Book

06:00 Bigger Differences from the Novel

07:03 The Squid

07:36 Where Did the Budget Go?

08:45 Case’s First Impression: Boring

09:46 The Michael Crichton Formula

10:50 Why the Performances Feel Flat

12:25 Barry Levinson and the Wrong Material

13:09 Should Sphere Have Been a Miniseries?

13:58 What’s Inside the Sphere?

15:31 Why the Sphere Changed Color

16:17 The Ending Doesn’t Work

17:22 The Missing Cover-Up

18:14 The Problem with Erasing Their Memories

18:58 Sphere and Roadside Picnic

21:01 Why Jurassic Park Works as an Adaptation

22:03 Sphere Hurts the Source Material

22:46 The Movie Has No Point of View

24:32 Norman and Beth’s Added History

25:39 How the Movie Changes Beth

27:14 Harry’s Role in the Book

28:51 The Added Comedy

29:12 Stories Where Everyone Forgets

30:19 Legion and Erased Timelines

31:25 Why Give Up the Power?

33:50 Nobody Learns to Control the Sphere

35:26 The Black Hole Problem

37:17 Space Is Really Big

38:04 Underwater Pressure and Hypothermia

38:59 The Helium Atmosphere

40:02 Things We Actually Like

40:34 Peter Coyote and Queen Latifah

41:13 Liev Schreiber

41:59 The Sets and Production Design

43:10 The Most Boring Version of the Events

43:27 Where Is the Giant Squid?

45:19 The Snake Attack

46:18 Sea Snakes and Ocean Nightmares

47:22 Why the Movie Needed More Suspense

49:34 The Deaths Need More Weight

50:45 Harpoon Guns

51:29 Samuel L. Jackson Needed a Harpoon

53:19 Final Thoughts Before Another Pass

54:00 Long Live the Legion Promo

54:44 Another Pass Begins

55:21 Jesse’s Found-Footage Pitch

56:38 Intercutting the Survivors and the Tapes

57:53 Europa Report

59:46 Keeping the Ship Intact

01:00:48 Preserving the Time Loop

01:02:05 Why Security Footage Works

01:04:52 The Deleted Scene Fixes the Ending

01:05:48 Final Fixes

01:07:11 Too Much Budget, Not Enough Movie

01:08:25 The Genre Problem

01:10:48 Neither Horror nor Science Fiction

01:12:31 Nostalgia for Sphere

01:13:10 Why This Format Was Wrong

01:15:56 Sphere vs. Congo

01:16:50 The Found-Footage Pitch Wins

01:17:22 Jesse’s Plugs

01:21:51 Sam’s Plugs

01:22:20 Case’s Plugs

01:23:04 Trade School

01:24:33 Patreon Shout-Out

01:25:20 Next Time: Highlander II

01:25:38 Credits

Transcription

00:00
Sam
See, this is the poor use of Samuel L. Jackson because he should be holding a harpoon gun. But. But you know, what I'm saying is just like.

00:08
Case Aiken
And with helium voice being like, eat this, motherfucker.

00:11
Sam
They call me bad motherfucker. There are snakes on this motherfucking sub.

00:21
Case Aiken
Welcome to Certain POVs, another past podcast with Case and Sam, where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Another Pass podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alicea.

00:43
Sam
Hi, Sam.

00:46
Case Aiken
Are you gazing upon a reflection but not being reflected back upon?

00:51
Sam
Yeah, it's freaking me out.

00:52
Case Aiken
I know that's a really weird thing that's going on. We're looking at this weird celestial sphere in front of us, and it's reflecting. Reflecting everything in our room that we're both standing in somehow, despite being in different states and.

01:05
Sam
Yeah.

01:06
Case Aiken
And it's not reflecting us. That. That's so weird.

01:09
Sam
It's really weird. It's creeping me out.

01:11
Case Aiken
Yeah. Wait, let me look to my right. There's a third person here. I couldn't tell because he wasn't being reflected. This bit actually is working fairly well. I'm very happy about this one.

01:21
Sam
I'm really happy with this one.

01:25
Case Aiken
Look who is to my right. It's Jesse Fresco.

01:28
Jesse
Hello. I'm back again. Hello.

01:30
Case Aiken
Hey, Jesse. Welcome back.

01:32
Jesse
It's been a while since I've done one of these. I was setting up my equipment. I was like, how do I do this? I haven't touched this since forever.

01:38
Case Aiken
I know the weird equipment of this room that's holding this celestial sphere that we're trapped in right now. Because today we are Talking about the 1998 movie Sphere, based on the Michael Crichton novel that Jesse, you brought to this. I hadn't seen this before. Sam, had you seen this before?

01:58
Sam
No, this is my first watch.

02:00
Case Aiken
Jesse, I'm curious what drove you to want to talk about this movie on this podcast?

02:07
Jesse
I was browsing around Amazon one day and I was like, I just don't know what I want to watch. I'm like, it's one of those days where it's like, you're indecisive and you don't know what you want to watch. So I went over the sci fi category and Sphere popped up. I was like, oh, I haven't watched Sphere in a long time. And you know how Amazon has, like, the listing of The Rotten Tomatoes scores, like the critic and audience score. The. The Rotten Tomatoes score for this movie is at 13% critic. And I was like, what? No, absolutely not. That's way too low. So I was. I threw it on. I was like, okay, I can see a lot of problems. I don't love it, but I don't hate it. I remember seeing this years ago when I was, like, 15, so.

02:46
Jesse
And I hadn't watched it in a long time. I remember enjoying it generally. Then there was a lot of stuff that kind of confused me, but overall, I remember not hating it, but not loving it. It definitely has a lot of issues. But, yeah, I was. I was just sitting. I was sitting there thinking about that Rotten Tomatoes score. I was like, how the hell did it get that low? And so I said, all right, Case, I want to talk about this one. And I decided to also read the book as well. I read the book in preparation for this because we had all the time, you know. And I also read, as a companion piece to this film, I read a book that has kind of the same premise. A Roadside Picnic by Andre and Arcadian, Boris Dragotsk, their names.

03:28
Jesse
It was a Russian science fiction novel and inspired the film Stalker, and also inspired the video game series Stalker. There is a very loose connection between the film adaptation of Sphere and the book of Roadside Picnic, not the film Stalker. The film Stalker is a totally different thing. But, yeah, I just.

03:46
Case Aiken
Right now I'm just picturing, like, Charlie Day with, like, the web of. The web of connections.

03:51
Jesse
Yeah. Like, right now I gotta find him. But there is connection. It's a very weird connection. And I'll bring that up when we get to it. But, yeah, I just saw that Rotten Tomatoes. I was like, how. How is this possible? I. I think it's. There's a lot of things I think are wasted potential in this movie, for example, for sure. But the weird thing, it's generally a close adaptation of material in the book. Generally, there's a lot of things that are changed for the sake of time. Like the cast list is cut down a bit.

04:24
Case Aiken
Here's a question I have for you about the book versus the movie. What is the perspective of the book?

04:31
Jesse
It's all Norman. It's all Norman's perspective.

04:33
Case Aiken
First person perspective. Yes.

04:36
Jesse
If I'm. It's been a little bit. It's been like a month since I read it. No, it's not. It's not first, but it is third person, but it's limited.

04:42
Case Aiken
Third person.

04:43
Jesse
Limited. Just his perspective. But, yeah, there's a lot of changes to the character of Norman. He's not Dustin Hoffman. He's kind ofish, a little pudgy. Honestly, he looks like you, Case.

04:54
Case Aiken
Thank you.

04:55
Jesse
I'm not. I'm not saying that disparagingly. I'm just saying he looks a little bit more like you, not like Dustin Hoffman. Okay, yeah, but I'm not. I'm not criticizing your weight. I'm just saying, like, he looks like a bigger person.

05:07
Case Aiken
Officiant budgie.

05:10
Jesse
I didn't mean that meanly.

05:12
Case Aiken
I know what you mean, but at the same time it's funny.

05:16
Jesse
But yeah, the other big change, which I did not like, the character of Beth in the. The film is Sharon Stone and she's a psychotic. In the book, she's like a six foot two muscle mommy. And like, why was this changed? Why was this taken out? So there's a lot of things. There's also more apparitions that are in the book. There's a moment when Norman sees a Navy officer walk into his room and says, we've come here to rescue you. Follow me. And then the guy just disappears. So there's way more apparitions that happen. There's. They more than. More quickly. Everyone realizes, okay, we've all been in the sphere, we all know what's going on. So the ending is a little more ambiguous.

06:00
Jesse
The sphere is implied to be destroyed at the end of the book as opposed to in the film where it survives. And it's a. It's a time loop. I think they only find one crew member on the ship. As far as I remember. There's not like a whole crew. It's just one person. It's implied the ship was basically a drone. It's implied that it was just a drone sent out to explore. It was never meant to be a big exploratory mission with a whole crew. Yeah, the changes are really. You can cut it down. If you. If you did trim it down, this is what it would be like just cutting down the cast list. The big thing I would say is a big change is the squid.

06:33
Jesse
You see the squid way more times in the book to the point where they actually communicate with it and they see it outside and it even kills one of the members of the crew directly. It grabs Ted when he's going into the. The hold where they jump into the water with their suits on. The tentacles come up and grab him, smack him against the walls and then snap him in half. Oh, Jesus. I was like, yeah. As opposed to it when he Dies in the movie where he gets his face burned off. And I burst out laughing because it was hysterical.

07:03
Case Aiken
Like, that scene sounds like something straight out of, like, deep blue sea.

07:08
Jesse
It's kind of that because he's just kind. He's. He's really excited to communicate with the squid because they still don't know that it's just an apparition. They don't know it's a projection. So it's a way more interesting death. I also compared the budgets for this. This film's budget was between 73 and $80 million with reshoots. The budget for Jurassic park, which is the previous Michael Crichton novel that was adapted.

07:36
Case Aiken
Don't forget about Congo. Don't forget about Congo.

07:39
Jesse
Okay, okay. The budget for Jurassic park was 56 to $63 million of reshoots. And then Congo, which I believe came out in 96.

07:47
Case Aiken
95.

07:48
Jesse
95. Budget for that was around $50 million. So how is it that this movie has the budget of around $80 million and is way more limited and cut out more of the book?

08:02
Case Aiken
Yeah, that is a good question. Because it.

08:05
Jesse
Where'd the money go?

08:06
Case Aiken
It feels kind of like a TV movie to a certain degree with, like, really big budget stars.

08:13
Sam
I'm wondering if it went to their salaries, that.

08:16
Case Aiken
That would explain quite a bit of it. But.

08:18
Jesse
But weird was actually working on this and Jackie Brown at the exact same time. He would film this on the weekdays, and on the weekends he'd go work on Jackie Brown. So he didn't really take days off.

08:31
Case Aiken
That is the work ethos of Sam Jackson.

08:34
Jesse
Yeah, at the time. At least he's relaxed now.

08:37
Case Aiken
So he's got the Marvel money coming in.

08:40
Jesse
I know. It's like, did you see Secret Invasion? He mostly spends a show in a chair.

08:45
Case Aiken
All right, so the operative word I had when I watched this movie just to set the tone for this all was boring. I had a hard time getting through this all. And I messaged Sam about it being like, this was a tough one for me. So I apologize if I primed her in a negative way about this one. But I felt that the. And I'm sorry to launch on the negatives, I felt that, like, the cast was kind of like, okay at best. Yeah, yeah, okay at best is what I was saying. You know, like, miscast would be a good way. Like, especially Sharon Stone, apparently. Although I didn't know that she was supposed to be this giantess. But, like, it also kind of felt like, oh, I can see the Matrix of.

09:30
Case Aiken
Of what a Michael Crichton book feels like at the moment here, where it's like, oh, here's our crack team of specialists of different academic fields being brought in to deal with, like, X situation. In this case, instead of. Instead of theme parks, it's Alien Vessel. But it's.

09:46
Jesse
I talked Ulrich from Geeks with Shields. I talked to him about this. He's read every Michael Crichton novel and he said they're all basically the same thing with a different setting. Like, compare this to Jurassic Park. Team of specialists is sent in to investigate and things go crazy. Yeah. To Congo. Team of specialists is sent in to investigate, things go crazy. It's essentially the same story every time. And that's fine. I appreciate that. And it is a very easy read. The book. And like I said, this generally follows the structure of the story. Like, when they interact with Jerry, which is then revealed to be Harry. It's generally the same stuff, but the way it's done is more intricate in the book and more unique and interesting. The movie does feel like it's kind of just cramming in a little too much.

10:36
Jesse
And it's because the cast doesn't feel appropriate. It doesn't quite work. So also, it was to. Honestly, about my own negatives. Performances are weird in this movie.

10:50
Sam
It's oddly flat, which is. I mean, like, honestly, everyone who's casted in this film has done good work before, right? Like, it's. It's not like. It's not like these are actors that are untested or untried or, you know, even pretty much all of them are exalted in one way or another. Right? Have had films with good reviews, but for some reason, this movie just feels really flat. And for all the drama that's happening, I will be honest with you and everyone. I fell asleep twice. And I'm not a person who takes naps. I do not sleep during the day. And I was like, I don't know what it is about this movie, but something about the tone in the actors, voices. I don't know. It was like an audiobook for me, but something you'd find on comm, which you think is not.

11:44
Sam
People are being murdered. People are dying in this. In this movie. Every. Almost everyone dies in this film. Which is, like, great, you know, honestly,.

11:53
Case Aiken
Like, but it's a fairly melodic Sam Jackson and, like, leave Schreiber. Like, I know what you're saying. Like, it's like an asmr, like, level of voice for him.

12:02
Sam
Like, and it's just like everybody, like, every single person. It's just kind of like, well, they're dead now. Yeah, he is dead. Like it was like. I'm like, wow. Like there's a. I mean there's some screams, right? There's some like freak out moments. But like, for the most part it is like way too chill. Yeah, I think it's just way too subdued.

12:25
Jesse
This is not the right material for this director. Barry Levinson, who is a very good director. Yeah, he's only done one other horror film, which was the Bay, which was set in Maryland and not a single shot of it was filmed in Maryland. Thanks, buddy. So I think this is just the wrong material for this director. He even later regretted doing this. I think he said the only reason, the only thing that was good that came out of this was that he got to do Liberty Heights because the Norman character in this story inspired the character of Lib. That's lead in Liberty Heights. So that's, you know, I mean, the. Granted this is my kind of science fiction. I like slow science fiction. It's my jam. But I think I'm probably the lone, the odd man out here.

13:09
Case Aiken
I just feel like this is the wrong format for this material. Like it feels like a TV movie because it kind of should just be a sci fi, like original movie. Like as a backdoor pilot to like a larger kind of thing or like maybe like anthology series of Twilight Zone kind of stuff. And this happens to be it's like hour and a half long intro movie kind of thing. And you just don't. Because like the budget already, like it already feels like the kind of thing you could pull off in a fan film for the majority of the actual special effects. Like most of like what they're doing is in terms of like making it actually feel like they're in this like enclosed, like subterranean system.

13:49
Case Aiken
They don't show us that much of this like other ship or even the goddamn sphere, like the titular thing. Like we don't actually see that much in this movie.

13:58
Jesse
They go to the ship like multiple times in the book. They even find like a food cache and they're eating like food and it's like normal human food. Oh yeah. Also the big other big change. The sphere is not golden. It's actually like a giant silver ball and it has like engravings on it and has a door. They go into it. The door opens and they go into it. So you actually see what's inside the sphere. So. Or at least it's described to you. And it turns out there's. There's the thing that's in the sphere is that it's, it unlocks sort of the. What's the Jungian archetype of the shadow person. The sort of like the ID of a person. That's what it unlocks. It unlocks your pure id. And so it allows you to see your reverse version of yourself.

14:43
Jesse
So far more interesting than what's in the movie where they just said, oh, there's nothing in there. It's like, yeah, I'll say that. It's more interesting in the book.

14:51
Sam
Weird because like the sphere talks to him.

14:53
Jesse
It literally talks to him.

14:55
Sam
Yeah, they don't. They don't. That's not like really fully expanded upon in the movie at all because you don't really get that, like other than the fact that like the real. And I don't know if this is because like this is just like a writing fail where when they're writing the script they want it to be like a. Oh, it was a mystery. And now here's the plot twist, right? Because they kind of like mention like, oh, it's you that's doing it's your brain. It's like what the sphere has given us. So I kind of like get that. But like, that's not at all what we got in the film. It's weird.

15:31
Jesse
The reason for the change in the design of the sphere is because they originally were going to do the version from the book, but then they realized, oh, it's a silver sphere inside of a dark room with no lighting. So the sphere just didn't reflect any light. So like, well, this doesn't work. So they changed it to a golden sphere. I do like the line where they say, this sphere is reflecting everything but us. That is a good moment where I was like, oh, yeah, that's cool. That is it reflecting them. So I do like that part. But yeah, you never go. They never see the sphere enough. You never see enough of the ship. You think that they would want to go back to the ship multiple times. They do in the book, but they don't in the film.

16:09
Jesse
So I think you're right. Case. This really should have been like a. Maybe like a miniseries, Like a four hour miniseries. Yeah, get everything out right.

16:17
Case Aiken
Like that's kind of what this feels like. It should just be like they truncate the events of the book a little bit to make this like fit into a movie's runtime. But, you know, just give it a little more space to breathe. You could probably get away a little bit more with, like, a. Like a narrator monologue kind of going on to a certain degree to cover, like, some of the gaps in, like, what characters are thinking. Thinking about situations. Because, like, for example, like, the end of the movie. I don't buy this whole, like, oh, they wipe their brains thing that they do at the song.

16:52
Jesse
Yeah, generally that is the ending of the book. But it's implied that Beth does not give up the power.

16:56
Case Aiken
Right. The fact that there could be an implication of it or anything going on beyond that is a thing that you can do in a book, apparently, that they failed to do in this movie. I'm not saying that it's impossible to do in this movie, but that they don't give us any goddamn signifiers after they say, all right, we're all going to wipe each other's brains. One, two, three. And then they just kind of look at each other, and then that's it. There's no even. Like, what are we doing here? Like, they don't even say that. Like, the bare fucking minimum.

17:22
Jesse
Yeah, well, also, yeah, wiping your brain is great. It doesn't excuse all of the archived video footage of them on the submarine that shows them all going raving crazy and killing each other off on the. On the Habitat, because they never did anything about that.

17:37
Case Aiken
Right. Nor would they remember to.

17:39
Jesse
Now that they did do that in the book, though. They used their power to change the records in the sub. They couldn't take five minutes to just say, hey, let's change the records in the subs. Let's just change the records. And then that all that would exist. And then they say, oh, well, everyone died because there was a. A gas leak or something like that, and you were the only three survivors. That's the ending of the book, is that we explain away all these people being dead by saying, oh, well, there was a gas leak. The Habitat exploded. We were on the other habitat, you know, which had the sub, and we escaped. Like, they are able to cover all their tracks. They just leave giant plot holes at the end of this movie that are never explained.

18:14
Case Aiken
Okay, that. That makes me feel better because it's so weird. Like, yeah, the ending of this whole. Of the whole story is so weird in this movie. Like, it's just like, oh, what if we just forget and then have no story to cover for anything? And we're just like, no, we don't know. But also, the fact is that we as the audience just have to accept that they just forgot that. Like I said that there's no signifier to confirm it for us that anything happened. Because we don't even know, like, how do they even have that level of control? Like, we never see them exert any control to that degree. If they could rewrite an event in history or in the records, at least in history, that would at least show a degree of control that we never see them have.

18:58
Jesse
I would never go to sleep if I had this power. Because no matter what, you always dream in your sleep. So even if you don't remember it, you always dream. So you're probably going to wake up to weird shit crawling all over your apartment if you actually had this power. Yeah, no one could control this. No one can control this. So, yeah, I would never fall asleep again. It's. That's the other connection between this and Roadside Picnic, the film of Stalker. The adaptations. The film Stalker based on Roadside Picnic. The premise is that it's three guys headed to the center of this place called the Zone. Which is never explained why it's there. It's explained in the book. There was an alien invasion. The aliens left and they left behind their technology.

19:41
Jesse
There's apparently a room in the center of the Zone where if you get there, inside that room, you can achieve your heart desire. You don't know what it is you really want, but when you get there, the room will manifest it for you. But in the book, there's not a room. There is at the center of the Zone a giant golden sphere. I don't know if this was intentional as a reference from the film Sphere to the book Roadside Picnic. I don't know if that was intentional, but it's a funny coincidence. Funny coincidence. So. But yeah. And then in the game, it's like a second Chernobyl incident. It's like, I don't know why they kept changing the reason for why they had the event. It's like Aliens was fine. It's like the aliens showed up. It's a roadside picnic. They're like, okay, let's go.

20:26
Jesse
And then they bolt and then they leave behind all their shit. So that's more interesting to me. So, yeah, it just feels like the movie, like you said, it really should have been a four hour miniseries. Like there's just, there's too much in the book. I mean, honestly, then you can make the claim about Jurassic Park. You can make the claim, hey, why wasn't that a miniseries? Like you could. I mean, if it wasn't for the fact that Jurassic park is tied up with all the goddamn sequels, I would Say, hey, can we go back to the source material and just adapt the book as is? I would really like to see that version.

21:01
Case Aiken
I mean, the argument I would make here is that Jurassic park handles the story in a really effective way. And part of that is me making a claim on quality here that I would say that Jurassic park, it takes the events of the book, condenses them in a way that is narratively effective, that we get through lines for all the characters, and that we have a really interesting story that is told in a lot of ways visually and musically in a way that you couldn't do that in a condensed format in the book. The book needed to have the amount of exposition that it does and that the book and the movie are kind of making different points. But those different points are just that, like, there's a little bit more hopefulness coming in Jurassic park the movie versus the nihilism of the book.

21:52
Jesse
Yeah, everybody's an asshole in the book of Jurassic Park.

21:55
Case Aiken
Yeah. But. But I would argue that here we're not really elevating it beyond the source material in this movie.

22:03
Jesse
I think we're hurting it.

22:04
Case Aiken
Right? Yeah. Like, it just feels like, oh, this probably was better as a book is what I'm getting at. Like when I watch this movie, that's the response I'm getting. I'm like, this, it's. Oh, I would probably appreciate this more if I was reading this, because having a little more context, having a little bit more in the scene, there's just a bunch of things that would make me appreciate it more. And you could address those to a certain degree by having slightly more runtime to. To play with and by having a budget that allows for certain shorthan that this kind of a movie just wasn't going to do because it's supposed to be a Hollywood blockbuster.

22:45
Jesse
Yeah, yeah.

22:46
Sam
I also think that because the ending is the way that it is where they just forget everything that happened. Right. It's almost like you just sat through two hours of what's the point? Yeah, right. If there's no cost for the characters because they don't even carry the memory of what happened. And the movie itself doesn't seem to have a real point of view. And this is not a comment on the book at all. Right. That's what works about Jurassic park is that even if it deviates from the original source material, there's still enough for a person who's just giving it a once over without reading to kind of get a point of view from the movie, whether that's Wistfulness or wonder or the terror of not regulating certain things that shouldn't be experimented with. You still get that point across in the film.

23:47
Sam
I feel like when I was watching this, I was like, okay, all right. Okay, yeah, sure. There's. There's. There's an alien. There's. There's stuff happening. Samuel Jackson's having fun being a villain. Okay. Dustin Hoffman's making me sleepy. Right? Like, and I wasn't really sure where. Where. Where the film was going, and I was. I was. I was down for the ride. Like, I'm. I want. I want it to go somewhere. And there's a lot of interesting interpersonal relationship stuff happening. Everyone here has a history with each other. That's interesting.

24:32
Jesse
Oh, that's not in the book. Like, the whole thing with Norman and Beth. Not.

24:35
Sam
Oh, really?

24:35
Jesse
Nope.

24:36
Case Aiken
Okay.

24:36
Jesse
Added. Added.

24:38
Sam
And so. And so then we get to, like, the. The end. And. And they just forget everything. But people died, you know? Like, it's such a weird thing because it almost feels like, well, did this journey I went on with these characters even mean anything? Like, they chose to give back the power, and the sphere literally in front of us blew away, left the earth because they chose to reject the gift. It's not even left there for a future people to find it. Like, you know what I mean? Like, so it felt like such a weird ending to what was a really strange film. And also, I'm really glad that the interpersonal between Norman and the female character did not happen because that was still hella weird. It was fine for them all to know each other, but that whole.

25:39
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah, he was kind of predatory to her in the first place.

25:43
Jesse
It's predatory, and from a writing standpoint, it's very misogynistic because, I mean, downgrading Beth, that. That this. I will tolerate no muscle mommy hate in this house. God damn it. Okay, look, the downgrading of Beth is the biggest flaw for me because down. I mean, Sharon Stone is obviously in shape. I mean, this time she was definitely in shape in this film. She still is, but she's not like a. She's not like a Katie o'. Brien. It's like. Which is what the character is basically described as in the book. I mean, this is long before Katie Bryan was ever around. But the character is described as being incredibly intelligent. She's well mannered. She is. She's tough and she's strong. But she has a level of resentment towards being overlooked by her male colleagues.

26:26
Jesse
So she has a bit of a little bit of a Misandra streak in her. Like, she's just. She's pissed that the world kind of keeps beating her down. And so that's the reason she keeps the power, so she can take revenge on the people that her over in her career, in all of her careers. So there is a justification for why she's like this. She's not insane. She's added. She has this added element of being, one, a drug addict to a sex assault victim, and three, also being a suicide. A person attempted suicide. It's like this downgrade is just this level of inherent misogyny. And it's just. And also, Harry's behavior becoming the villain is not in the book at all. That was also kind of added. Like, he's oblivious to what's going on. Like, he doesn't know what's happening. He's. He's mostly asleep.

27:14
Jesse
In the book. They. They put him out pretty quick. In the book. They put him out because. And then they. But this. The Jerry stuff still keeps happening. That's when they realize it's Harry's subconscious that's actually doing it. And by the end of the book, Harry's kind of like, what's going on? It's like they wake him up right before they get on the sub to bolt. So he's kind of like, what's happening? Why? Why are we leaving? So they. But they realized they couldn't make the black guy, the insane one that tries to kill everybody. They had to make the woman one. Because it's better to look misogynist in the film system than it is to look racist in the film system. So it was just this level of patriarchy that just, like, crushed that character. That it's. Yeah. I mean, there is a.

28:02
Jesse
There's a slight misogynist tone to the way Beth is written in the book. Yes. But this book was written in the 1980s, so you have to let certain things go. There's also a very heavy explanation as to how Harry also feels rejected by society because he's black. He grew up in a very. What's the word? Impoverished black community. And so he's working his way up. And so it's. They're adding all. All this stuff is not in the film yet. They added in this subtext of Beth being. Being a victim of being taken advantage of by her therapist. Like, they cut the good stuff and put in this garbage, and it's just. Yeah. And also there's jokes in this movie. Why? None of that's in the book. There's no comedy in the book at all, really.

28:51
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah.

28:52
Jesse
Like, it's very tonally inconsistent. The bit at the end where. Where Sam Jackson goes, are you religious? Dormant, and he goes atheist. But I'm flexible. Not in the book. Not in the book. There are no jokes, there's no quips. None of it. This is the Marvelized version of this book. It's like, that's what it is. Yeah, it's like Marvel. It's Marvel level of comedy.

29:12
Case Aiken
Oh, that's unfortunate to hear, but that kind of makes sense to a certain degree. I want to circle back to. To a thing that you made me think about, which was that the. I was thinking about other works where characters don't remember the outcome at the end or where there's no one who remembers the. The outcome at the end of a story. And I was trying to think about it and, like, I could think about, like, time reversion ones. I was thinking about, like, Star Trek Voyager as episodes that are kind of like this.

29:42
Jesse
Oh, I'm just thinking about this. The Year of Hell.

29:45
Case Aiken
Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

29:47
Jesse
Yeah. How appropriate.

29:50
Case Aiken
So. And I was thinking like, oh, but there's like, a degree of tragedy about the ones that are successful. And like, the Year of Hell is another example of one that isn't successful because there isn't the. The element of people experiencing everything, like the. The. The suffering being for. For something like if. If the. If the end of this movie, they had wiped their memories. And it was so. It was so necessary that, like, the memory of why people died has been.

30:19
Jesse
I got it. I got it. I got it. Did you watch Legion?

30:22
Case Aiken
I didn't. I didn't. I. I know.

30:25
Jesse
So, okay, I'm going to spoil the ending of Legion. So the very first shot of Legion is the very last shot of Legion, but the tone and meaning is completely different because the whole. The whole three seasons becomes a time loop where David goes back in time to stop himself as a baby from being taken over by. What is the guy called the Shadow King. The Shadow King. He stops the Shadow King from affecting it, but that means that version of David no longer exists. So he looks down at himself as a baby and then he fades out of existence, erasing effectively the entire three seasons because he'll grow up to be a decent person.

31:08
Case Aiken
Okay, yeah. So, like, that actually is a scenario where there's, like, some tragedy to it because, like, the lessons learned and so forth are lost in this all. And that it feels necessary. Like, I don't get the feeling at the end of this movie that the protagonists need to erase their memories.

31:25
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

31:26
Jesse
Well, it's in the book. I don't know really what else you do.

31:30
Case Aiken
I know that it's in the book. I'm saying that this movie doesn't sell me on it.

31:34
Jesse
Oh, yeah. Well, also, when Norman is thinking like, oh, it's hard to let go of this. It's like. I mean, this could be used for something good. That's the thing. Like, if you were to make this into a TV show, they would. They would capture the sphere, bring it up, put it in a facility, and these three characters would be, like test subjects in some kind of thing, and they would use their powers to reshape events in history or something like that. And. Yeah, but you need to find some way to suppress it in some way. Like, you could totally do this. I mean. But, yeah, I. I do think that it's. You're talking about very esoteric ideas of, like, if you could do anything, what would you do? It's like. It's like you're paralyzed by choice.

32:22
Jesse
Like, there's just so many options of what you could do. Like, we would all obviously do the main three things. Get rich, hook up with anybody you want, take revenge on your enemies. The. The trifecta. Like, you know, we would all do that. Don't lie. You would.

32:41
Case Aiken
It's just very Conan the Barbarian, where it's like, exactly. Across the enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the limitation of their women.

32:46
Jesse
I was actually rereading some of the old Conan books back on the shelf back there. I was just going through some Conan recently. But, yeah, that's what we would all do because it's. It's just we're as human beings, we are pretty, you know, pretty basic. We have basic needs, and that's. That's what we would do. Yeah, if you had the power to do anything, that's probably what we would all do. But then you think beyond that, how would you reshape the world? You're just like, just what would you do? Like, you know, just anything. You could do anything. And it just. It's too big. I mean, the book's only like 300 pages. It's not terribly long. I blew through in about a couple of days. It's not that bad. It's. It's pretty quick. You know, it's.

33:29
Jesse
And so I think that it's just too big of a story to just make it go, oh, they forgot. It's like, it's. I get. You have to end the book. You have to end it. I could have seen a sequel. I could have seen a continuation. I don't think he ever went back to the story though. And Michael Crichton's been dead for a while now, so I don't see anything else happening.

33:50
Case Aiken
Yeah, it's just one of these things. Like I said, the fact that the movie omits them doing anything else with their powers, volition, or voluntarily, that is so weird to me. Because as a result, them even knowing that they can wipe their memories of their own will, that they can do anything of their own will, it isn't just when they're sleeping. Those dreams are manifested because that's the only thing that they know for sure happens. That like, that they are manifesting things in their dreams. Like, no one has seen it actually happen while they're awake. Like, no one. No one has willfully done a thing. You know, it starts turning into like, their fantasies and like these overwhelming, like, hallucinations that they go through. But like, it's. No one is actively. I don't know, like, how to.

34:36
Jesse
No one's testing their abilities.

34:38
Case Aiken
Yeah, no one has control of this ability.

34:40
Jesse
Yeah, yeah. Which is, it's. It's in the book. There's moments when Beth, she realizes, oh, I have this power. And she's just. She's just kind of lounging around and then like, strange things start happening. She's kind of projecting things into. Into reality. Like there. She projects like guards at a door to prevent anybody from entering her room. I was like, oh, that's interesting. That's kind of cool. Be nice if we saw that, right? But it's not until the very, like, back end of the third act, they all realize, oh, we all went in the sphere and we just don't remember. That's the thing that bugs me is like they go in the sphere and they forget. It's like, how. How do you forget this? Like, how if they found that, like, if, for example, Norman thinks he doesn't get.

35:26
Jesse
He didn't go into the sphere in this film. But then the way in which Harry gets out of the sphere, he just kind of appears at the. At the foot of the sphere. Well, clearly somebody went and found Norman at the foot of the sphere. So they think, oh, well, he clearly went in too. Why would you ever think you didn't go in? Right. It's just like. And also just. This is something that just bugs me. This is a problem with both the book and the film. The scientific accuracy of certain things. Okay, so the ship, they say in the book and in the film that the ship is designed to handle the density of traveling through a black hole. Okay.

36:09
Jesse
Why would a couple of explosives surrounding the ship blow the fucking thing up if it's designed to handle that kind of gravitational pressure?

36:17
Case Aiken
Yeah, okay, fair.

36:19
Jesse
This is designed to last, though.

36:21
Case Aiken
That is 100 true. I don't remember that specific line about the black hole, which is why the explosion part didn't bug me. But when you bring it up, that makes a lot of sense. And I'm just gonna say that makes a lot of sense.

36:35
Jesse
It should have been a wormhole. A wormhole, that, that makes more sense. I mean, I mean, granted, wormhole, as far as, you know, travels from point to point, not from time point, time frame to time frame. But yeah, this is written back in the 80s when we didn't have a lot of scientific explanation as to what black holes really were. We didn't know exactly everything about them. I mean, we know now that not only do black holes, you know, have an event horizon you can't cross, they also emit immense amounts of radiation. So you can't even get close to the event horizon in the first place. So there's no way for that to actually work. Emerging a video recently where what would happen if. What was the biggest black hole we know of? Ton 618 the largest black hole we know. It's supermassive.

37:17
Jesse
So big it's almost incalculable. If that was one light year from our planet, we would all be dead like that. It's so there's so much radiation, you couldn't even get close to it. So yeah, for record, you want to know how long a light year actually is? I think at the Voyager space probe about like a month and a half ago, just crossed one light day from Earth that was launched in the 70s. Took 50 years to go one light day. So if you want to know how big space is, that should be your element of measurement. There's a lot of nothing between the somethings. So anyways. But yeah, the other scientific element I don't like. So Norman just kind of swims around outside the habitat without a suit on.

38:04
Sam
Yeah.

38:05
Jesse
And then just climbs back in. Like nothing. It's like not only would the pressure kill you, the temperature would also freeze you within about 2 minutes.

38:12
Case Aiken
Licitly call out the pressure part. They said they're like all like the pressure is equalized. And they even have a line saying, oh, you could even go in the water. But the hypothermia would kill you in two minutes.

38:25
Jesse
In the book, he actually climbs back in and he has to get into his suit to get the heater turned on because he's freezing when he gets back in. Whereas in this, it's like, oh, it's like nothing. It's like. Okay, all right.

38:38
Case Aiken
I mean, I get that he's like, within the limit of, like, he would, in theory be okay, but he would definitely be uncomfortable. Like. Like, it would definitely be rough.

38:50
Jesse
Yeah. Does this act. Does this actually work? Is this the way which deep sea divers, like, actually do this with, like, deep sea habitats? Does this actually work like this?

38:59
Case Aiken
So, like, there. There's, like, fiction, like the. The whole, like, our voice modulator thing, like, that's, like a bit of scientific, like, finagling. That's a convenience for the movie and for I. But, like, so that we're not listening to it all, but they actually got accurately correct is that they use hydrogen at a higher rate in the. In the mix because mean helium or helium. Pardon me, Helium. Yes, because something. Something to do with, like, it being heavier in your lungs or something to that effect.

39:27
Jesse
Liquid oxygen is a thing, right? I've heard the liquid oxygen is a thing.

39:31
Case Aiken
I'm not what specifically.

39:33
Jesse
I. I'm just saying, like, we can breathe things other than nitrogen and oxygen as we are right now on the surface of the planet.

39:41
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah. So, like, it's. It's just one where it's like. No, actually, that part was accurate. Like, oh, they actually do a healing, like a higher helium mix in their. Like, in the atmosphere that they breathe in those, like, spaces. Okay, like. Okay, that. That's cool. Like, that. That's legit. That. And then they address it, like, with scientific unobtainium. That's. That part's fine.

40:02
Jesse
God damn it.

40:03
Case Aiken
I just.

40:04
Jesse
Name something you liked. You haven't mentioned anything you like.

40:06
Case Aiken
I know, I know.

40:07
Jesse
I'll say. I'll say one thing. I like. I like the score. I like. I mean, Elliot Goldenthal score. I like the score a lot. He's. He's the best part of Alien 3.

40:16
Case Aiken
Yeah.

40:17
Jesse
So score is good.

40:19
Case Aiken
Yeah, I like the score. Like, I don't hate most of the deaths, even. Like, I. I think that they all work fine.

40:26
Jesse
Better in the book. Better in the book.

40:28
Case Aiken
That's kind of the vibe that I got from. From all them and that, you know, that's just sort of the thing about this.

40:34
Jesse
I like to think of this movie as being like a pseudo sequel to E.T. Because Peter Coyote shows up as a character that's very similar to his character from.

40:41
Case Aiken
Oh, yeah.

40:42
Jesse
Just very disgruntled that he didn't get passed over for promotion. He's now shuffled to the bottom of the ocean.

40:50
Sam
I liked Queen Latifah there, you guys. I liked one thing.

40:54
Jesse
She's not a bad actress. It's just odd that she's here. Yeah. And there's other weird things. Like, they switch around. Like, the. The cast list is smaller. There's more people that get killed in the book. Like, Peter Coyote's character doesn't get cut in that by a door. He literally gets eaten by the squid. Just so leave Schreiber.

41:13
Case Aiken
I. I like in general and I like him in this movie specifically. Like. Like, I enjoyed him as this, like, wannabe, know it all character. Yeah, yeah, I just enjoyed him, like, fun character.

41:24
Jesse
His little tete a tete with Sam Jackson's character trying to one up each other. I was like, that's. That's kind of in the book. Kind of, sort of there. Yeah.

41:32
Case Aiken
Yeah. Enjoyable.

41:34
Sam
Really?

41:34
Case Aiken
Yeah. I really try not to just like, completely like on this movie and. And yuck your yum here. I just.

41:39
Jesse
This feels like an episode of Film Rescue. I know, I know.

41:44
Case Aiken
I'm not trying, honestly.

41:46
Sam
Really does.

41:46
Jesse
Film Rescue is retired. Damn it. We're not doing it again. Be nice. I mean, visual effects wise, is it at least decent? I mean, the models are good. The model work is.

41:59
Case Aiken
Yeah, the model work is fine. The set. The sets are good. Like, the. Like, these are good sets, but I don't think they. They look. I don't think they look as expensive as they should.

42:10
Jesse
Does it seem like it's overlit, like inside their main.

42:13
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah. To the point where it doesn't feel that bad to be in, like, it feels like when they're like, oh, my God, this is. We're going to be trapped in this space for like a month or whatever it is because of the storm that's overhead that it's like, oh, this is the worst. But it actually feels like a fairly hospitable space to be in.

42:28
Sam
Yeah, it's kind of cozy.

42:29
Case Aiken
They talk about how they have plenty of food. There apparently is entertainment. Like, they. Yeah, it doesn't seem that bad.

42:35
Jesse
Yeah, I mean, it's. And that's probably the thing that's in the book is that it's. Because there's more apparitions and there's more characters that are constantly in conflict each other. And also the squid shows up more than once, by the way. I Want to make note that they constantly reference 20. Was it 20,000 Leagues under the Sea in this film adaptation, which they only mentioned one time in the book. It's not. There's not a sequence where there's, like, a thousand books of 20,000, which, by the way, why does that not freak anybody out?

43:06
Sam
Yeah. Again, that should have freaked people out way sooner.

43:10
Case Aiken
Yeah. This movie is like the most boring version of most of the events.

43:15
Jesse
Yeah, true. But, yeah, we literally got a giant squid in the film adaptation of 20,000 Leagues under the Sea. How do we see it in this movie? Case?

43:27
Case Aiken
Not. Not at all.

43:28
Jesse
You see a shadow, and that's it. Wow. What a cocktails. God. Yeah, that. Oh, yeah, that. That's. For me. The biggest negative for me is. Is not just the Beth thing, but also the fact that you never see the screen.

43:41
Case Aiken
That's kind of why I don't feel like we're seeing the $80 million on screen.

43:47
Sam
Yeah.

43:48
Jesse
This has got to be actor salaries. It's got to be actor salaries that ate up this thing.

43:52
Sam
Because, honestly, the set, like, let's be honest, they're. They're on a ship, so.

43:57
Case Aiken
And.

43:57
Sam
And. Or a submarine. And the way that the set's dressed, it's not. It's nothing extravagant. I mean, it's exactly what we expect. But a lot of the hallways kind of look like you could just shoot it from a different angle. And therefore, it looks like. You know, so it's not. It's not like the sets are really extensive or something. Really interesting to look at. It's a lot of gray and, you know, gunmetal. Just kind of not very interesting to look at. The sphere is probably the most interesting thing and probably a good thing they.

44:32
Jesse
Changed the color because it is gunmetal in the book, right?

44:34
Sam
Yes. So, like, it gives you a little bit of light color, but then we don't see it very often. Right. So we don't see it very often. And then there are some cool effects for the underwater scenes, but I, like, you were sticking out of it because I was like. But I feel like you should be wearing more to be in that space. So, like, I just, you know, for the. For the pressure, like. So, like, my brain was kind of deviating from the actual storyline because I was just like. I just feel like maybe. Maybe you want to have a real suit. Like, maybe this is not. Okay, whatever. Let's just go with it. Because by that point, by the time he's just swimming around, you're like, oh, it. We've already jumped the shark.

45:19
Sam
So, no, I mean, I think the snakes scene was pretty effectively creepy. As a person who doesn't like snakes and I think like the fact that like they just couldn't stop it from coming and there was more and more happening and like the freak out of like what is happening and how did they get in here, I think was like, pretty good. I actually do like Samuel Jackson in this film. I think that like he's very committed to being a, a villain in it. And I, and I, I like when.

45:52
Case Aiken
He's a bad guy sort of villain in it. Like because he's like not really the bad guy. He's subconscious.

45:59
Jesse
There isn't really a villain. The villain is like, that is like them not realizing that they're causing this chaos. Right.

46:05
Case Aiken
It's all of their subconsciousness is.

46:07
Sam
This is like kind of like fear.

46:08
Case Aiken
That he's the most.

46:11
Sam
Yeah, but I mean he causes a thousand books to show up which no one else finds weird. He just keeps handing it out to people and.

46:18
Case Aiken
Yeah, sorry. I want, I want to cycle back real quick to the snakes thing. I, I am generally speaking not afraid of snakes. Until I was reading about sea snakes and how like having grown up on the east coast of the United States, I have never had to deal with the concept of sea snakes. And then finding out just like, oh no, there's all kinds of snakes, including just like deep water fucking snakes. And that discovery freaked me the fuck out. And I just want to say that I appreciate the nightmares of the snakes. I'm normally not, I'm normally not anti snake. I am normally fine with snakes, but this was just an aspect of it where it's just like honey. No, no.

46:57
Jesse
What about spiders? You like spiders?

47:00
Case Aiken
I do, I do. In fact, I know there's a spider.

47:02
Jesse
That's about 5ft in size and is at the bottom of the ocean and it eats whale carcasses.

47:09
Case Aiken
An actual spider or something. That is.

47:11
Jesse
No, an actual. It's an actual sea spider. It's about five feet in size.

47:15
Case Aiken
That's freaky and kind of awesome.

47:19
Jesse
Everything's weirder at the bottom of the ocean.

47:21
Case Aiken
Yeah, sure.

47:22
Jesse
Yeah, yeah. It just, I, I think to make this like you like were, we keep saying this really should have been a four hour miniseries, right? Yeah. It could be split over two nights. Make it, make it like a Made for Sci FI Channel film event.

47:41
Sam
You know, I think it would have been better. You could build up the tension. Right. Because I think one of the things is like. Okay, so I, I am Famously not a fan of horror in any way, shape or form.

47:55
Jesse
And clearly Barry Levinson isn't either, because even though it's a horror film, it's not very horrifying.

47:59
Sam
No, this was actually a relatively very easy film for me to watch. And I am.

48:05
Jesse
There's like, no blood anywhere.

48:07
Sam
No. And you know, it's not even about the book. Because for me, one of the things that actually terrifies me the most, which this movie should have done, is the waiting. I hate watching films where people are waiting for the thing that is coming to get them. Right. The suspense of it almost, like, makes it worse for me, you know, like, and so this is like, perfect vehicle for that, for the idea of, like, we don't know what's up there or what's coming for us or what's attacking us. And you're trapped in this small space and you can't get out because of a storm. And, but the, but the alien may or may not be controlling your mate, you know, the other people on the ship.

49:02
Sam
And, and, you know, maybe it's that people died too quickly, too fast, that there's not enough of the illusion and the horror built up. Because sometimes what works for certain films is the suspense of waiting, of knowing that the dread is happening. You got to kill some people and you got to injure some people, but you gotta actually build that suspense. And I feel like this movie doesn't build enough suspense. It's like almost like a little kid telling me what happens next, if that makes sense.

49:34
Case Aiken
No, I, I, it's like, it completely because I I 100 agree with you that, like, this rushes through and like, characters don't react enough to, like, when someone dies or anything like that.

49:44
Jesse
Like when they watch lecher get killed by the jellyfish, everyone's just kind of standing there. It's like, get a suit. Do something, dude. Like, come on.

49:53
Sam
And the fact that there's, there's no one freaking out about it, and there's like, well, another one bites the dust. Like, it's so clinically cold. Like, there's just like nothing, you know? And so it's kind of like someone's like. And then Queen Latifah went out to fix something and she got attacked and now she's dead. And then, you know, later on there was something else wrong and the other person went out and, oh my God, they're dead. It's like, where's at least, I mean, Come on, at least have a rock, paper, scissors. And who goes out to make the repair? Because no one wants to go out and get eaten or.

50:36
Case Aiken
I feel like we need a Matthew Lillard going like, I'll be right back.

50:41
Jesse
That's a thing in the book, is that they're afraid the squid's going to come back. So they're like, okay, who wants to go?

50:45
Sam
Yeah, so, you know, make a rule that, like, you know, maybe we're changing things anyway. Maybe have like a. Someone who has a freaking harpoon and have people go, right, oh, guess what?

50:59
Jesse
There's harpoon guns in the book. There's literally harpoon guns with explosive tips. And they shoot the squid. They blow it away,.

51:07
Sam
Okay? And then you see.

51:08
Jesse
You see them in one shot. In one shot of this movie. I swear to God, they filmed this and they just didn't put it on screen. There's one shot in behind Peter Coyote when they're getting the helium in there, in the little chamber right behind him, a whole wall of harpoon guns.

51:25
Case Aiken
Oh, shit.

51:26
Jesse
I swear to God, they filmed this shit and didn't put it anywhere.

51:29
Sam
See, this is the poor use of Samuel L. Jackson, because he should be holding a harpoon gun. But. But you know, what I'm saying is.

51:37
Case Aiken
Just like, Ed with helium voice being like, eat this, motherfucker.

51:41
Sam
They call me bad motherfucker Snakes on this sub.

51:47
Jesse
This is why the budget's inflated, because this is post Pulp Fiction, so his rate is through the roof at this point.

51:55
Sam
Yeah.

51:56
Jesse
There's the budget. Found it. Found it.

51:58
Case Aiken
Well, and also post Jurassic Park.

52:01
Jesse
Post Jurassic park, so. So, yeah, Michael Crichton gets a giant fee.

52:04
Case Aiken
Well, but I mean, like, Samuel Jackson was in Jurassic Park.

52:06
Jesse
Oh, that's right. He is in Jurassic Park. That's right. They came out the same year, didn't they? It was 94, wasn't it?

52:17
Case Aiken
Like, it was either 94, 95, like, it doesn't matter.

52:19
Jesse
Like, but it's post that.

52:21
Case Aiken
Yeah, post both.

52:22
Jesse
Yeah. Found the budget. Found it, guys. There it is. Thanks, Sam. We could have had a giant.

52:28
Case Aiken
I have to argue that Dustin Hoffman's probably also eating up quite a bit.

52:31
Sam
Of that budget, for sure.

52:32
Jesse
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's fair.

52:34
Sam
Several awards. That's, you know.

52:35
Case Aiken
Yeah.

52:36
Jesse
Sharon Stone. Also, this is after Basic Instinct. This is after Casino. This is. This is the time when she's also really big at the time, you know,.

52:44
Sam
So, I mean, you've. You've got. You've got an Academy Award winner helming, you know, hitting the helm on this making me very sleepy.

52:54
Jesse
But still, you know, at one point, Dustin Hoffman was. Was going to be cast to play Deckard and Blade Runner.

53:02
Case Aiken
Oh, my God. Yeah.

53:03
Jesse
There's concept art of it. It looks terrible. Yeah. They eventually realize, yeah, this is not the right direction we want to go. Let's get Harrison. Probably the better option here. Good choice, guys. Good choice. I was actually just watching Blade Runner. It's free on YouTube, by the way. The 4K version is free on YouTube.

53:19
Case Aiken
Right now, so fantastic movie, this. Okay, so not trying to yuck your yum, but I am indicating that I can understand how the yum is better in a different context than the yum that we got with this movie. On that note, I think we should probably take our break here, and then when we come back, we will discuss how this movie could have been better. We've already done a bit of that discussion, but, like, I think really trying to nail down that element of it all would be really nice. And in the meantime, we're going to run an ad for one of the shows on our network, one of the wonderful podcasts that are part of the certain POV Podcast network. Hey, Jay.

54:00
Jesse
Hey, Jim.

54:01
Case Aiken
You're a fan of the Legion of Superheroes, right? Yeah, I've been reading their adventures for decades. Me too. It was tough at first with all the characters, but now I think I'm an expert. It's not too hard to get into the Legion. And to make it even easier, we have a podcast called Long Live the Legion. We talk about different aspects of all its history to help you out. So whether you're a new reader in the Legion Academy or have your own flight ring or anywhere in between, along live, the Legion podcast should be on your playlist. And we're back. All right, so we have taken a break. We have refueled, and we are now about to discuss how we could fix this movie in a way that isn't just us saying, like, wouldn't it be great if this was a.

54:44
Case Aiken
If this was a miniseries? Because that's not the realistic scenario when this was supposed to be a Barry Levinson $80 million movie starring Dustin Hoffman, they were going to try to make this movie. Now, how to make this a better movie, I don't know, because I just kept on saying, oh, I feel like the book's better. Jesse, I am really curious what you have to say about that. You're our guest, so you can take the first swing at the saw. Sam can take the first swing at this all. I am not allowed to go Before Sam. So you can have Sam take the first swing, I can take the second swing. We can all do this collaboratively. You can take it first, however you want to do it. What's the order you want to do this in?

55:18
Jesse
I mean, I, I, I'll just shoot out my idea here.

55:21
Sam
Yeah.

55:21
Jesse
I would not follow the book verbatim like the film does. I mean, the film generally follows the structure of the book scene to scene. It generally follows it. I would instead. Wild idea. I can't believe I'm going to suggest this. I would do this as a found footage film.

55:38
Case Aiken
Okay.

55:38
Jesse
I could see that because they have those archive tapes on the sub. And so I thought, what if you're seeing it from the perspective of people going through those archive tapes, going, okay, what's going on? All right. And they're just looking back at the last 12 hours of this habitat completely unsure of what the fuck happened.

56:01
Case Aiken
I hate how much I think this is kind of perfect.

56:06
Sam
Yeah.

56:07
Case Aiken
Like, this is like, kind of perfect to a degree where I'm like, the only question I have is, would they have made this in 1998?

56:15
Jesse
No, because this is pre, Isn't this pre Blair Witch? Blair witch was 99, I think.

56:21
Case Aiken
Yeah, I think you're right.

56:22
Jesse
I think that, yeah, this would be, this would technically be the first found footage film.

56:27
Case Aiken
But aside from that detail. Yeah, aside from that detail. I think that is fucking brilliant and perfect.

56:34
Jesse
Go back through, See all those tapes. Yeah, yeah.

56:38
Sam
I think what you could add into it, like, just to like, have some more full circle moment, is you can have the last three are our main cast. You can switch back and forth between the found tapes and the people investigating them. They already don't remember. They already have wiped their memories and they're being interrogated, like, based on the tapes.

57:04
Jesse
That fixes the plot hole of them not erasing the tapes at the end of the movie. It's like, hey, we've erased our memories. We forgot about the tapes.

57:10
Case Aiken
Right. In some, I will say this gets very similar to Blair Witch 2 territory.

57:16
Jesse
Don't. Don't you dare.

57:19
Sam
No, but I think it could be interesting. And then, you know, you can do the whole movie a little bit better because it's in splices and having suspense. And, you know, you can even ask him, like, well, what about, you know, and you bring up a character and then you can, like, jump back to, like, that moment on the ship. And you're like a giant squid. And so, like, it gives a little time to like, kind of like, you know, run through the tapes and kind of see what it is. And then at the end, you can still put in that she kept the power. She does remember.

57:53
Jesse
I just realized what this is. I just realized what it is. Do you ever see the Europa Report?

57:58
Case Aiken
No. I remember wanting to see that though.

58:01
Jesse
So basically I'm gonna spoil the ending of the Europa Report. They get to Europa, as it's called that, in the last like 20 minutes of the movie. And they land on the ice because the. Most of the moon, right? It's. Yeah, they drill in and one of the astronauts falls through and is sinking down. And she sees what's under the ice. It's a bunch of giant squids. And then a squid starts to attack the ship, pulling it down. And then they transmit all their data, all their footage back to Earth. And what you're seeing in the film is the astronomy, the astronomers and the analysts looking at the footage. And they see one of the bioluminescent squids attacking the ship and. And hurling towards the camera as the footage cuts out, as the ship gets sucked down into the ice.

58:53
Jesse
Granted, you can't land on Europa because Jupiter emits so much radiation you would die within five seconds. So.

58:58
Sam
Right, right, right.

59:00
Jesse
But for the sake of, for the sake of film. Film, yes. But yeah, they basically find alien life forms and it's a giant squid. So sorry to spoil the ending. It is kind of cool to see that squid, but it is a little bit of letdown because like, oh, okay, they're already dead. They've long since been dead. Like, maybe they should change, maybe we should change. The ending of this story is that they don't blow up the habitat and that they actually go down there and they find everyone just dead. And they don't know why they're dead because I think, because as we've stated, the plot hole of the ship being destroyed by bombs doesn't make sense if it went through a black hole to get back here.

59:45
Case Aiken
Right.

59:46
Jesse
So from a scientific standpoint, that makes more sense to just believe it intact. That gives this, that gives the scientific team a reason to extract the sphere. And then the cycle would happen all over again of people going into the sphere and then crazy shit happens and it gives you a room open for a sequel.

01:00:03
Sam
Yeah, true.

01:00:05
Case Aiken
Right. Although they are trying to do the whole, like, closed loop of like, well, why isn't it a known historic event?

01:00:12
Jesse
Yeah, in the book. In the book. It is not in the book. When they get down There they find the materials and they. It's a bunch of random last event xxx slash X percentage sign, upwards sign xxx xx. They don't say unknown event. You don't know what it is. So who knows? What if no one says that it's a time loop? So going back to that, it could just be like, that's the end of the loop. That's just the end.

01:00:48
Case Aiken
No, that's a valid point. I do like the time loop component of them having to address that, like, to a certain degree. I always enjoy, like, questioning about, like, time loops in general. Yeah, I mean, like, it's certainly something you can write around, like, it's not a big deal in any way, shape, or form. And you could easily just like, minimize it, like you said, by like, not having it be like unknown event. Just it's event X, blah, blah, like unidentifiable event. Right.

01:01:16
Jesse
There you go. Yeah. I do think that if you wanted to have a continuation of the story, it would be. It would definitely behoove the story to not blow up the ship.

01:01:28
Case Aiken
You know, I mean, even with the ship blown up, but them getting the footage. I think you like the shot of the. The sphere rising up looks like such like cell phone camera footage.

01:01:38
Jesse
Yeah.

01:01:41
Sam
Yeah.

01:01:41
Jesse
I mean, it does. Oh, God. I just realized what else it is. That's Cloverfield. It's the ending of the end of Cloverfield. It's just in reverse.

01:01:52
Sam
Yeah.

01:01:53
Jesse
God damn it. This is the problem I have. I've always. I have a very low tolerance for found footage films because I always find, like, why are people still filming? It's like. But in this case, it makes sense because it's archive footage.

01:02:05
Case Aiken
It's just security camera footage.

01:02:06
Jesse
Yeah, it's just security camera footage. There was a movie that came out. What the hell was it called? It was called 37 eyes or something like. Or 27 eyes. It was basically. It was like a drug bust inside this house. And they're trying to find the right footage. I think Fisher Stevens was in it. And it's about them trying to uncover just enough evidence for these two investigators to have enough evidence to get a warrant to. To arrest a certain individual. And there's cameras all over the house. It's a cool idea. Doesn't make sense why there's cameras in the house if you didn't have a warrant. But whatever, it's. It's the crux of the story. But yeah, like, security camera footage works. Find cell phone footage and like handycam footage. I have low tolerance for that.

01:02:47
Jesse
Because I'm like, why aren't you just dropping the camera and running? I've never liked the Cloverfield movies at all, so. With the exception of 10 Cloverfield Lane, which was never intended to be a Cloverfield movie until they shoved on the ending, so. Which is true. It was never meant to be a Cloverfield.

01:03:05
Case Aiken
No, it's. It's true.

01:03:06
Jesse
It's just.

01:03:06
Case Aiken
It's like, just like a funny digression there. I'm like, yep. No, that. That is true.

01:03:10
Jesse
Yeah, but. But yeah, I think that by having it be this footage you're seeing from this other perspective, it lends a lot more drama to the whole thing. Because you're wondering, like, okay, these people are all. If we do go through with the idea of they're all dead already, and you're just seeing the footage, like, just the. The sub came back up with nobody in it. And you're like, okay, what the hell happened? Like, what. Why is the habitat destroyed? Like, what. Where's everybody? What's going on? You know, whether the sphere is still there or not. I don't know. Toss a coin. I don't know about that one. Because it's destroyed in the book. I don't know if you want to keep that around. Because if you keep it around, you get the time loop thing again.

01:04:01
Sam
Right.

01:04:02
Case Aiken
And I kind of feel like I'd rather be. Because you can, like, you could keep the time loop thing and just have it be classified at the end.

01:04:13
Jesse
They Transported to Area 51.

01:04:15
Case Aiken
Yeah. Well, just saying, like, that this documentation has been classified.

01:04:18
Jesse
Oh, yeah.

01:04:19
Case Aiken
And that's why it's not like, you allow for the time loop to exist, but not have it be a scenario where people are aware of it. And I think that is fine. Yeah, I really like this idea. Like, is just. I. The question is, like, what is, like, the specific permutation that we go with in developing it? But I love this idea of making it found footage whether they're survivors or not, because I do also like Sam's like, scenario of them being, like, interviewed and like, intercutting the interview with. With the footage of the. Of it all. I just don't know which one.

01:04:52
Jesse
You just. You just triggered something for me. You just reminded me. So the ending of the movie. On the dvd, there is a deleted scene where they actually point out that the archive footage from the sub was changed. They created a plot hole in the movie by trimming out the ending where they say, oh, yeah, the footage just shows it was a gas leak. Oh, okay. So you Made it worse.

01:05:23
Case Aiken
So the version that you had us observe of, this is the worst version of this story.

01:05:28
Jesse
This is the worst version of the story. I just. It is the worst version of this story.

01:05:33
Case Aiken
Like, it omits key details and it's a lesser version of what the book is doing.

01:05:38
Jesse
Yeah. Huh. Maybe it does deserve its 13%. Maybe it does.

01:05:48
Case Aiken
I really like this take. I don't have many notes to add to it. Sam, do you have notes to add to this?

01:05:53
Sam
No, just. Just what I added. Yeah. This is, you know, this film is. It is one of those films where like, there was potential there, but it just feels like in so many ways it was squandered. And I just wish that there were a way to infuse some suspense into it. And that's coming from a person who hates suspenseful movies because I get anxious, but I feel like it would have given something to it. And I just, you know, I don't know. I. I feel like you have all these heavy hitters in this film and then really it just, it's. It's all ideas and not enough substance, unfortunately.

01:06:44
Jesse
It's always a problem when you see the credits, and the credits say screenplay by Stephen Hauser and Paul at the. At Tana SEO. So it's two people for the screenplay. But then it says adaptation by Kurt Wimmer, the director of Ultra Violet.

01:07:04
Case Aiken
Oh, man. Interesting filmography on that one.

01:07:09
Jesse
Yeah.

01:07:11
Case Aiken
So, yeah, I mean, this is a movie where I just keep looking at it and being like it's got too big a budget. Like, like the found footage scenario is going to be a lower budget movie and the, like, the TV miniseries scenario is going to be a lower budget production. It just has too much money going into it. And thus they try to make this too prestige and as a result, too.

01:07:34
Jesse
Much money for just looking at gray hallways.

01:07:36
Case Aiken
Right?

01:07:37
Jesse
Yeah, yeah. That said, I, I like this kind of science fiction where it's about people just analyzing data. I'm weird like that.

01:07:50
Case Aiken
I don't hate this movie. I found I was bored by this movie, but I didn't hate it. I do need to. Like, there is a difference in terms of that. Like, it's just one where I'm like, I'm fine with having watched it. There are interesting things going on with it. Am I ever going to watch it again? No. But if anyone says they really like it, I'm never going to be like, well, fuck you. Like,.

01:08:12
Jesse
I considered rewatching it again before we did this episode. Tonight. And I was like, you know what? I've already watched it three times. I'm good.

01:08:20
Case Aiken
I'm sorry. I'm really not trying to yuck your yum. I really.

01:08:23
Jesse
No, I'm fine. I'm fine with it.

01:08:25
Sam
Yeah.

01:08:25
Jesse
Yeah. I just, you know, it also makes the film feel kind of flat, is the comedy, the. The jokes that are thrown into the movie. None of this comedy is in the book. Like, it's. It's like that Marvel level of comedy where it's like a really tense event is happening and then somebody undercuts it with a joke. So it's like going up on a roller coaster, but then it plateaus and just sit there.

01:08:47
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:08:48
Sam
It's actually classic action movie, like, which is very. Like, it was very common for action films in the 90s to kind of have those quips in there. It's kind of like this weird thing too, because, like, this isn't, you know, this is like a bigger problem. This movie doesn't know what it actually is. And so it's almost like they're like trying to. To pull people in who would watch an action film. But Dustin Hoffman was never a lead of an action film. Like, you can't. Like, he's not. Like, that's not working. Right? So he doesn't have the charisma of like a Will Smith. Right? Will Smith. Will Smith can like punch an alien and make a joke about punching an alien and. Or a robot or anything else, really. And you're like, okay, I'm still on your side. Will Smith, you just.

01:09:44
Sam
Dustin Huffman, he's not that kind of actor. He's not that kind of personality. And so I think that, like, that very classic. Because when you think about it, like, a lot of the movies made, like 1995-2000 that are action films that involve aliens have these quippy kind of one liners. Even when they're really serious, even when there is moments of like, you know, people burning up, you know, you still have these quippy moments. This is not an action film. This is not Jurassic Park. This is not. This is not Independence Day. Like this. You. You hired an Academy Award winner, winning actor, two of the most popular actors. You're in a psychological thriller. You need to make a psychological thriller, not Independence Day, you know, and so I think that's why it doesn't work.

01:10:48
Jesse
It's not horrifying enough to be. It's not scary enough to be a horrifying movie, and it's not scientific enough to be a science fiction film. It sits in this weird mercurial space where it never quite fits either genre.

01:11:00
Case Aiken
Which is fine as a novel. Which is totally fine as a novel.

01:11:03
Sam
Yeah.

01:11:03
Jesse
Yeah. And that's the thing is, like you said, we are watching the worst version of this. Of this story. That's a perfect way of putting it. Yeah, we are. That this film is the worst version of this story. I mean, I, I don't know who owns the rights to this franchise at this point. I hope that somebody tries and takes another crack at it, because there's, you know, there's adaptations that have been made for television that have been superior to film adaptations. It's happened. It's, you know, we'll. We'll see if somebody tries it. I don't know if anybody even wants to attempt it.

01:11:32
Case Aiken
Right.

01:11:33
Jesse
So, I mean. But then again, there's also, you know, TV adaptations that are as good as their film adaptations. I recently caught a couple episodes of the Snowpiercer. The, the TV show adaptation is pretty good. It's, it's shockingly pretty good. It's not great. It's a little cheap, but for a TV budget, not bad. Okay, Pretty good. I quite like it. I recommend it. I recommend Snowpiercer, the TV show. It's a good adaptation of the film, which is a loose adaptation of the comic book it's based on.

01:12:04
Case Aiken
Right.

01:12:05
Jesse
So, so. But yeah, it's, I, I, it just sits in this weird nexus where it never quite decides what it is. I guess my love for it is just based on nostalgia. It's like my love of the original Tron. It's, it's based on my nostalgia from watching it when I was four. Like four or five. It's like. But I recognize now it's not a great movie. So.

01:12:31
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense right there and speaks to a type of nostalgia that I fully appreciate. And I, I don't share for this movie, and I kind of share for Tron, but, like, Tron was hyped for me in a weird way before I actually saw it. But, but I, I do love it. I just, I, I like Legacy more.

01:12:48
Jesse
Yeah, I still haven't seen Aries because I don't care. It's just. I don't care.

01:12:53
Case Aiken
Aries was, like, fine, but it was like, it's not, it was not as good as Legacy, in my opinion. And that was, like, disappointing when I.

01:12:59
Jesse
Heard it didn't even tie into Legacy at all except for the last five minutes. I Was like, oh, whatever, who cares?

01:13:05
Case Aiken
That's the thing. The end of the movie sells a much better sequel than like, what the movie we just watched was.

01:13:10
Jesse
And we're like, we will never get.

01:13:11
Case Aiken
Exactly. That will never get. Anyway, getting back to this movie. This movie, I think, is just an interesting enough concept that I want to talk about it, but shouldn't have been this format. It's just the big budget film version of it wasn't going to be the best version of it. That a lower budget version of it that really could dwell on the suspense or the miniseries that could be a cheap sci fi thing was allowed to live in that space would have been fine too. But this movie is just not there. And I appreciate that we got to talk about it, though. Like, Jesse, I do very much appreciate you bringing this. Like, I'm glad I watched it. Like, it. Was it a bit of a slog? Yeah, sure. But, like, it's one that I'm like, fine with making that slog.

01:13:55
Jesse
Like, yeah, I'm sorry I brought you guys a bit of a dud this time. Sorry.

01:14:00
Case Aiken
No, no, it's fine. This is perfectly fine.

01:14:03
Sam
Perfect for this podcast. It's perfect for this podcast.

01:14:07
Jesse
It was starting to feel a bit like film rescue for a while. I was like, okay, good old days.

01:14:13
Case Aiken
Only 2/3 of us are drinking on this one.

01:14:15
Jesse
Oh, yeah, that's true. Yeah, but yeah, I, I, you know, it's. It is a movie that I think is a weird anomaly in Levinson's filmography because he only ever made one of the horror movie that I pointed out, the Bay, which I don't think is a great movie. A lot of people have a fondness for it. I don't care for it.

01:14:34
Sam
It.

01:14:34
Jesse
It was the one where it's like the weird worm creatures are in people's throats. It has the weird X ray poster. It's like, you've seen this poster. I swear you've seen it. But yeah, I just, I think this is just not his genre. That's really what it was. If this was a TV, I could see three good seasons of this as a TV show on Sci Fi channel. At least the 90s. Sci Fi channel. Not now.

01:14:57
Case Aiken
Right?

01:14:57
Jesse
Yeah, because Night. Sci Fi Channel now is basically just wrestling. But, yeah, I could. I, I don't think this really works as a film. This really has. It's just too big of an idea. It's just too big. Like, what if you could create anything? Like, yeah, I would create literally anything. I, you know, it's That's a big concept to wrap your head around. So I think even. I think even the book kind of suffers in that regard. And that because this is a straight. Almost a straight adaptation of his material, it does feel like the book is limited in its scope. I think it could have been a little more. Could have probably gotten a trilogy out of it.

01:15:35
Jesse
But I don't think that Crichton ever wrote any sequels, any of his books, except for Lost World, which he was kind of contracted into writing.

01:15:42
Case Aiken
Right?

01:15:43
Jesse
Yeah. Which he didn't. He didn't want to write it. And the book is completely different from the movie.

01:15:49
Case Aiken
True.

01:15:50
Jesse
But, yeah, it's. It's. It's an interesting anomaly. And that's the best I can say about it.

01:15:56
Sam
It.

01:15:57
Case Aiken
Yeah. Like, it's interesting that this is not the second time that we've talked about Crichton, but at least the second time that we've talked about Crichton because we talked about Congo. And one of our big takeaways in discussing Congo was that it was not dumb enough, that it kind of just needed to be just like the Pulp Fiction science fiction piece that it so desperately wanted to be, and that it was being a better job of in the movie than the book. And so we applauded the movie for that. This movie is not doing the Lord's work of being a better version of what the book is trying to be. And that just kind of makes it just feel, like, lesser as a result. And so it's.

01:16:39
Case Aiken
Even though there are things that I'm happy about, the thing I'm happiest about is that I got to listen to your pitch, because I really dig that. That pitch right there. And I think that it makes this movie so much better in my brain.

01:16:50
Jesse
You want to know the funny part? I came up with a pitch when were on break.

01:16:55
Case Aiken
Nice.

01:16:57
Jesse
I was like, I don't know, bitch. Hey, what about found footage? All right, let's just see the fucking shit from a camera.

01:17:04
Case Aiken
Jesus Christ. That's a good one. That's a great one. And that is proof right there that sometimes limitations makes things work really well. Jesse, thank you again for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. Where can people find you? Follow you? What have you got going on?

01:17:22
Jesse
You can find me on Instagram. Jesse Fresco. I have a Blue sky account. Also, my name. I am back on X because I have to be for writing purposes. I was going to keep Jaguar Sharks going in some capacity because I actually realized as were doing this episode, we're one Year out from when the last episode of Jaguar Sharks was recorded. Literally one year out from when it was recorded. Yeah, it was me and Hope doing the final episode of Split the Difference. That was the very last episode that was put posted. There was some other stuff that my buddy Jeremy and his show defending your movie. We uploaded his old episodes from an old website, put them on our Jaguar Sharks banner and so that all got uploaded. But last like Jaguar Sharks proper was a year ago today.

01:18:07
Jesse
This is this January 1st, 2026. The last episode we recorded was I think January 4th of 2025. So we are a year out from when the last episode aired. I thought about keeping it going for interview format and such and keeping it going in some capacity. But writing took over and I've been working. I've been working as. Working on novels on the. In my time now while I'm working on my job. And so it's. It just got to the point where I said I just don't have time. It's just. Jaguar Sharks is just dead, you know. Hope is basically retired from doing a lot of recording. She's doing her own stuff. She's moving into California pretty soon. Seth is living in South Korea. So it's just like everybody's just. Was all gone their separate ways. So at this point Jaguar Source is effectively dead.

01:18:58
Jesse
But in the meantime I have been working on writing and back in November I put out my first novel, Skyhawk. The poster right there in my background first novel right there. That's a junkie boy.

01:19:12
Case Aiken
Yay, Skyhawk.

01:19:14
Jesse
My first book. Yeah. So I put on my first book. It's the first of seven in a series that's gonna be a long ongoing series. Working on the book number two now and my. I just submitted recently yesterday the manuscript for my second novel called Drive Like Hell. Based in Annapolis, Maryland. It's about a. A Lyft driver, though don't call it Lyft for legal reasons. She picks up this young hysterical girl who has a backpack and she's. And she just says drive, get away right now. And her crazy addict boyfriend is chasing her with a gun. So they drive off and then she realizes that they're as they're driving, she's carrying two pounds of fentanyl. So it becomes one really long New Year's Eve night. So that's book number two.

01:20:00
Jesse
And I'm also working on a third book at the same time called Artificial was about a. AI filmmaking and how it's basically ruining the. Ruining the film business. And one of the AI Filmmakers. I'll put that in quotes, because you're not a filmmaker if you're using AI. She goes in the studio one day and finds one of the other filmmakers dead, and she's been framed for it. So it's a, a real trek for the police investigators to discover. Is this real footage of you killing this person or is this actually artificially generated footage? And so it's a windy road for that one. That one. It, it gets like big and gargantuan by the end. I'm not going to get into it, but if you've read any Harlan Ellison work, you can kind of guess where the ending goes. So.

01:20:50
Jesse
But yeah, that's what I've got going on. Working on books, working on writing, that's my focus now. I was saying the case earlier on, I've forgotten how to set up all my podcasting stuff because it's been so long since I've done one of these. I forgot that I had this. The other problem with trying to continue podcasting is you have is because you have to keep paying for Adobe Audition to edit stuff. And if I'm not recording, that means I'm just putting money down the drain because apparently in America, even though you buy stuff, you don't own it.

01:21:20
Sam
Yeah.

01:21:20
Jesse
So I decided I'm just done with Adobe Audition.

01:21:25
Case Aiken
So I just use Adobe for so many things. So, like, even if I wasn't podcasting, I'd be using it. So. Yeah, anyway, not the point. The point is people should be checking out your book. People should be going back and checking out back episodes of Jaguar Sharks. People should just in general support you and find you on the socials after that. They should then find my co host, Sam. Where can they find you and follow you?

01:21:51
Sam
Well, they can find me here whenever our episodes drop. And of course they can. I am on the Discord. I am lurking. I don't post very often and I possibly will not comment, but I will see your comments and if you have any complaints. Complaints about anything I said today or anything terrible to say about Queen Latifah, I am sure that Case Aiken will defend her honor and you can find him at.

01:22:20
Case Aiken
Well, you can find me the. The easiest place to contact me is the Certain POV Discord. There is a link in our show notes and on our website certainpov.com Otherwise, if you are into more traditional social media platforms, you can find me on most platforms at Case Aiken, except for Instagram, where I'm holding on four dear life to my AIM screen name from high school, which is Quetzalcoatl5. Q, U, E, T, Z, A L, C o a T, L5. Yes, because I was pretentious in high school, but not pretentious enough to be really into this movie. Jesse.

01:22:52
Jesse
Oh, thank you. You know what? That makes up for the. The comment I made earlier on about your weight. That makes up for it. We're even now. That's fair. That's fair.

01:23:01
Case Aiken
Call me O Fish.

01:23:04
Jesse
I was Hipp.

01:23:06
Case Aiken
I know, I know. But yes, you can find me on those platforms at Case aiken or at quetzalcoatl5. And otherwise you should circle around to check out other great shows on the certain Point of View podcast network. There are so many great ones I'm going to shout out. Well, I'm going to shout out one that needs submissions, which is Trade School, which Jesse has submitted an episode of. I Can Talk, I swear. But yes, Trade School is a great show that I have been putting together where guest hosts come on and talk for five to 15 minutes about a comic book that they love and why they loved it. That's it. That's the format. If you have a comic book, please submit. If you just want good recommendations, please listen.

01:23:49
Case Aiken
It's a great place just to find out about awesome comic books that people have really enjoyed and why they really care about it and just to spread that positivity in the comic space. The idea was kind of inspired by Matt Storm's side Quest series, which is the same idea but for video games. And I have to, you know, just commend them for having this just general idea of spreading positivity and just like great sentiments about an art form that you love. And so I want to say that SideQuest is great and Trade School is great. So check out Trade School. That's a great show. One thing that we have to mention is that we do have a Patreon. Oh my God. We have to shout out our Patreon. These are wonderful people who have supported our show. You should check out the Patreon.

01:24:33
Case Aiken
You can find a link in our show notes or on our website, certainpov.com or if you go to patreon.com certainpovmedia you can come and support the show. And we should shout out the people who joined the Patreon at our executive producer tier. These are wonderful people who have contributed money on a level that is helping us keep the lights on. And we really appreciate that. And so that is Micah McCaw, Carter Hallett. Sean Muir Lee, Gregor Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Mastropiero, Casey and Nancy Aiken, Adam Sampter and Keith Lettinen. Awesome people all around. Just want to shout them out. But even if you join at the free tier, we still super appreciate you. We're doing content like crazy and that is just the thing that we're doing. So consider checking out the Patreon. It's great.

01:25:20
Case Aiken
And then come back here for the next episode. Sam, what have we got going on the next episode?

01:25:26
Sam
Next time we'll be talking about Highlander 2 the Quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

01:25:38
Jesse
Thanks for listening to Certain Point of View's Another Pass podcast.

01:25:42
Case Aiken
Don't miss an episode, just subscribe and.

01:25:45
Jesse
Review the show on itunes. Just go to certainpov.com Another pass is.

01:25:51
Sam
A certain POV production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Richardi. Our logo and episode art is by Case Adrian. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.

01:26:07
Case Aiken
CPOV certainpov.com.