Episode 84 - Eternals with CeeJay
Eternals is finally streaming and Case and Jmike's opinions aren't of a uni-mind, so to arbitrate this discussion we have CeeJay on from Below Freezing!
Find CeeJay on Twitter, his podcast, and his newsletter.
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Men of Steel Full Episode
Originally aired: February 11, 2022
Edited by Matt Storm
Scored by Gen Moonen
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⏱️ YouTube Chapters
00:00 – “I Wish This Movie Had a Tighter Story” Opening Quote
00:35 – Intro & CJ Returns to the Show
01:29 – Why Eternals Was Such a Strange Marvel Experiment
04:03 – Chloe Zhao vs. the Marvel Formula
06:22 – Why the Movie Feels So Messy
07:20 – The Celestials, Cosmic Lore & Green Lantern Comparisons
09:37 – Marvel’s Most Unusual Creative Swing?
10:14 – The “Marvel Movies Need More Sex” Conversation
12:11 – Diversity, Marketing & Audience Expectations
13:33 – The Infamous Opening Text Crawl Problem
16:41 – Deviants, Mythology & Too Many Characters
17:18 – Dane Whitman, Black Knight & MCU Sequel Bait
19:31 – Comparing Eternals to The Old Guard
20:22 – The Movie Trying To Be Three Films at Once
23:01 – Why the Deviant Plotline Doesn’t Work
26:01 – Character Dynamics That Never Fully Develop
29:15 – Cersei’s Powers Explained… Maybe?
30:15 – How the Eternals Should Have Been Characterized
32:28 – Big Philosophical Ideas the Movie Never Lands
34:14 – Kingo Quietly Having the Most Interesting Moral Position
36:53 – Is Marvel Reaching the Limits of Superhero Storytelling?
37:41 – Post-Credits Scenes, Blade Tease & Starfox Discussion
39:33 – Arishem Appearing Over Earth Is Genuinely Incredible
40:22 – Would Kids Even Enjoy This Movie?
43:16 – How the Movie Could Have Worked Better Structurally
45:37 – Jack Kirby’s Cosmic Weirdness & Why It’s Hard to Adapt
49:30 – Things We Actually Liked About Eternals
50:34 – Makkari vs. Ikaris Was Awesome
52:20 – Bollywood Kingo & the Movie’s Visual Style
53:11 – Why Phastos’ Family Worked So Well
56:54 – Shang-Chi, the Ten Rings & Celestial Connections
58:06 – Where Could the Eternals Show Up Next?
59:23 – Sprite Becoming Human Explained
01:01:27 – Why Cersei Feels Positioned as a Major MCU Character
01:03:27 – DC, Fourth World & Comic Book Cosmic Weirdness
01:04:06 – Does DC Even Need a Shared Universe?
01:05:21 – Case’s Deep Dive Into Eternals Comic Lore
01:11:32 – Why the Movie Never Explains the Team Dynamic Properly
01:15:01 – Marvel’s Increasingly Rushed Production Pipeline
01:17:22 – Dane Whitman Feels Like a Placeholder Character
01:18:14 – Why the Eternals Should Have Been Behind Human History
01:21:42 – Chloe Zhao, Art House Cinema & Corporate Marvel
01:24:53 – Final Thoughts: A Beautiful Mess
01:27:59 – Should Eternals Have Been a Disney+ Series?
01:32:42 – Final Ratings & Overall Verdict
01:34:14 – CJ Plugs Below Freezing & Monoplex
01:36:52 – Network Plugs, Discord & Upcoming Episodes
01:39:14 – Credits & Books That Burn Promo
Transcription
00:00
CeeJay
I just wish that we could have chosen just a few things to focus on and the movie had a tighter story to tell.
00:35
Case
Everyone, welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast.
00:37
Case
I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I am joined by my co host, Jmike Falson.
00:41
Jmike
Welcome back, everybody.
00:44
Case
Welcome back indeed. We have a returning guest who it's been a little while since they've been on. We've got cj.
00:49
CeeJay
Hello, everybody. Thanks for having me back on. I'm so excited to talk about this weird thing.
00:56
Case
Cj, when was the last time you were on? Actually now.
00:58
CeeJay
Wonder Woman, 1984. Because I'm the only person on the Internet who liked it.
01:01
Case
There we go. There we go. Yeah. The one that we'd already done our episode and we're like, oh, yeah. Hear more thoughts over at the Real Movie Critic versus the Cine Guy. And then you were like, or I want to come in now and talk more. Yeah, sure. Fuck it. Why not? We'd already done, like, four months of Wonder Woman content at that point. And you're back for another movie. Because we wanted to talk about a movie that honestly came out a little while ago, but I kind of couldn't brave theater for in the Time of COVID Like, it takes up.
01:27
CeeJay
Completely understandable.
01:29
Case
It's weird to say, because I do want to champion it, but finally it's on Disney. So we're talking about the Eternals.
01:36
CeeJay
Yeah, the Eternals. An interesting thing.
01:43
Jmike
A nice way to put it.
01:46
CeeJay
I think this movie's fascinating. I'm so excited to talk about it.
01:50
Jmike
I thought it was a movie. I was like, oh, I have thoughts. I have thoughts.
01:55
Case
I mean, like, because I did really want to champion it. Like, I was very excited about it coming out, and I was real. I was real stoked to, like, sit down on my couch and pay the extra 30 bucks and watch it on Disney. And then when I went to look the weekend it came out, I was like, oh, are they not. Oh, is it only theaters? That's bullshit.
02:15
CeeJay
They was like, you gotta come out here to the AMC with Nicole Kidman and brave it for the Eternals.
02:24
Case
Yeah, I've got some obligations that mean that I have to be out in the world that I just can't get around. And then I had some family stuff that was like, well, I definitely don't want to get sick because there are family members I don't want to pass it on to. And I was like, I can't do it. I wish you all the best, Eternals. And then the Reviews came out and I was like, mm, I didn't wish hard enough.
02:49
Jmike
That should have wished a little bit harder.
02:51
Case
Yeah. This was not super well received. This is probably one of the lesser received Marvel movies.
02:56
CeeJay
Yeah. Which is super interesting.
02:58
Case
Definitely in the bottom 10.
03:00
CeeJay
Yeah.
03:00
Case
There's so many.
03:01
CeeJay
Yeah, there's a ton of them. And it had such an interesting story leading up to it, specifically because it has Academy Award winner Chloe Zhao as the director, who was an indie director known for very. Not smaller in scale, but like, very grand in terms of visual scope. Films, Neo Westerns, the writer and Nomadland. And I actually wrote a piece in Monoplex about Nomadland and how it was very hard for me to get through. It was very deliberately paced and not a lot is happening plot wise. A lot of it is very interior. A lot of it is very thematic. And it is not a movie that is trying to hold your hand. And I was very fascinated by the fact that not only did she want to make a Marvel movie, the fact that Marvel was like, yeah, come do this specifically.
04:03
CeeJay
Because the movie that we got, I felt was going to be more akin to Captain Marvel, which is like, you bring in these small directors and that you can kind that aren't as familiar with the studio system and you can kind of like push them around and get them to do whatever you want them to do, just because you need directors for the film that you're trying to make. But then you also get indie cred from plucking these people out of whatever fucking Sundance thing that they did.
04:30
Case
Right.
04:31
CeeJay
And the. And the result, I think. And the reason I say it's interesting is because, like, it is so much more interesting, or I keep saying interesting. I don't mean to say interesting. I think that thematically and visually it is so much more ambitious and compelling than most of Marvel's output, the Marvel Studios output. But it also is a prime example of. Sorry to use Twitter lingo here, not understanding the assignment.
05:08
Jmike
Yeah.
05:10
CeeJay
And I'm a big proponent of big movies, blockbusters, all this. I think that all those. All the different components of the film industry are very important. But I think that there is something to be said about formula and the way that it is made to crowd, please and stuff like that. And if you come into this space that is dominated by and is buoyed financially, creatively, by making sure that everybody in theater understands what's going on all of the time and is having a great time with it, when you come in with what is essentially like trying to tell The Book of Genesis and a spinoff to the Mission Impossible franchise. The. You're alienating so many different kinds of people because the people who love Chloe Zhao and stuff like that feel like she just got chewed up by Marvel and spit out.
06:08
CeeJay
The people who love Marvel movies feel like they brought in somebody who was not able to meet the standard of platonic ideal of entertainment that Marvel is able to provide, and so nobody ends up happy. Yeah.
06:22
Case
And, I mean, one of my favorite episodes of another past was you came on for Jupiter Ascending, which is a big fucking movie. That is awesome. Also, like, the. Like, the word I used for this movie or for the Eternals is messy. Like, the movie is just, like, it doesn't quite have the right spectacle. It doesn't quite have the right vibe. There's, like, a bunch of weird things going on here. Like, I still like it. Like, I. The people who hate it. I'm like, why? Like, I don't understand why you hate it. But, like, it. It does not fully, like you said, understand the assignment. It doesn't, like, hit the nail for anyone. It's too many masters, dude.
06:56
Jmike
This was. I wanted to like this movie a lot, actually, because I was like. Because, you know, like, the whole. Like, the whole sphere of Marvel and it goes beyond that. You're talking about the Celestials. You turn it like, oh, this might be pretty cool. I really want to see this. And then I got to the end, and I was like, this feels like Green Lantern, and they should never go full Green Lantern.
07:16
CeeJay
I think Green Lantern is a considerably more fun movie to watch.
07:18
Jmike
Smith.
07:20
Case
Well, here's the thing. The Celestials are the linchpin on why this movie could work. Which, like, cj, you said, like, do the Book of Genesis thing in here. I think they could have made it work is if it felt like were finding out more stuff about the characters we care about. So far, like, the only characters that appear in Eternals that we see in any other Marvel movie are the Celestials, specifically.
07:41
CeeJay
Yeah.
07:42
Case
And that's fucking crazy when you think about it. Like, because we've seen nowhere, which is a big. A big location. We've seen flashbacks of other Celestials, and we saw Ego refer to himself as a Celestial. So there's at least this, like, seed out there of a bigger cosmic world. But, like, they don't talk about Thanos and they don't do the God stuff. Like, if this was Thor's origin, like, a story of the Asgardians and as how they interacted with space shit, that would have Been like, kind of a different vibe, but it's. The movie has the same problem that the Eternals as a comic book always does, which is that it was created to be a standalone thing. And they're like, oh, this is cool. We should make it part of Marvel.
08:19
Case
And in both scenarios, I'm like, it doesn't benefit from having that connection.
08:24
CeeJay
Yeah. I think that I engage with especially these sort of newer Marvel movies, particularly Shang Chi and Eternals. And so much is happening. And the back of my brain is always like, wait until Sam sees this. It is so wild to me that I will watch things like the big sort of exposition info dump that happens in the middle of this movie and be like, man, Tony Stark built that suit with scraps in a cave. And we got here, and there's so many things that the movie is doing. And the movie is, like, answering a lot of the criticisms that Marvel, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, has as a whole that is getting from sort of the critical establishment and film Twitter and stuff like that in terms of its cinematography, in terms of its performance quality, in terms of, like, directorial voice.
09:37
CeeJay
Because the people who really love Chloe Zhao's work prior to this are saying that she got sort of, like, eaten and swallowed whole by sort of, like the Disney Marvel machine. I don't really think that's the case. I've seen Chloe Zhao's other movies. This is very much in line with her work, even though her work is just decidedly more focused. And I think that it's so trying to be, or Kevin Feige allowed it to be so different. There's a sex scene.
10:14
Jmike
Yeah, let's expect that.
10:17
CeeJay
Oh, my gosh, talk about pretty people.
10:19
Case
Having sex in the most boring way possible.
10:21
CeeJay
Okay, so there is an article. I hesitate to call it an article. There was a blog post that came out, like, last year about, like, why everybody in,.
10:36
Case
Like, oh, the desexualization of.
10:38
CeeJay
Marvel in Marvel movies and action movies in general right now are in the best shape to be fucking in and nobody's fucking and how weird it is. And it felt like this was like answer to that. But also, I happened to watch this film in theaters right next to two children who were very excited to see the new Marvel movie.
11:03
Jmike
And.
11:06
CeeJay
It was one, very uncomfortable. And two, I think that article and most of everybody who just wants modern mainstream Hollywood filmmaking to be sexier, it doesn't necessarily mean that we want more sex scenes. If the sex scenes are good and are made ethically or whatever, great. That's cool. More sex scenes. But I think it is also about the fact that we just want people on screen who look like they wouldn't mind seeing each other's genitals at and right.
11:37
Case
They excuse themselves for the night or.
11:39
CeeJay
Something like that, or just like in shot, reverse shot, look like they are next to another human person. There is an extreme sort of lack of physical and spatial intimacy in these movies. And this movie has. And everybody's like, oh, we want Marvel movies to be a little bit sexier. But I don't know if that meant that we wanted the alien robots raw dog in it. In Mesopotamia. Like, I don't like, well, this is what you want.
12:11
Jmike
Don't you have the ice?
12:13
CeeJay
But, you know, there's so many things like that. Also, it's an incredibly diverse movie, which I think is a part of the reason that the Disney's getting really insidious about peppering their movies with like, super diverse casts. So, like, they get like, credit for like, pushing diversity forward or whatever, but not really doing much to propagate it in any substantial way. And then if the movie, like, fails, they can just go, oh, well, it must mean that audiences don't want diverse, whatever. And so that is something that I. And, and I wouldn't be as irritated by it if it wasn't so much a part of the marketing campaign and things like that. But that is also something that was like rubbing people the wrong way because it's just like, okay, the movie's diverse, great, but is it good?
13:16
CeeJay
And then the movie just turned out not to be there. There wasn't a lot of there or there was there too much there. I think that's something we can talk about.
13:27
Case
But yeah, kind of both. And we'll have to talk about that because, like, I think there's a lot of extraneous stuff going on in this movie.
13:33
Jmike
Oh, there's so much. There's so much that.
13:37
CeeJay
Shall we begin with the text crawl?
13:40
Case
Well, yeah, having a text crawl was such a goddamn annoying thing, especially because it's only there as a MacGuffin. Sorry, spoilers for anyone or not a MacGuffin. Pardon me, a red herring.
13:49
Jmike
Sorry, guys.
13:49
Case
Yes, spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen the Eternals.
13:52
Jmike
We forgot to say that at the beginning.
13:54
Case
Like, I. I mean, we kind of assume anyone who's watching our episodes knows. Like, the only time we had a spoiler free thing, were like, very clear it was spoiler free. Because otherwise, like, what the fuck? Why are you listening to a podcast if people talk about their Anticipation of.
14:06
Jmike
A movie, first of all, because we're awesome. Okay.
14:10
Case
But yeah, like, having a text crawl that is literally a lie was a choice.
14:17
CeeJay
Yeah.
14:18
Jmike
Was it a lie?
14:19
CeeJay
Yeah, yeah, it's a lie. Because they do in that big info dump in the middle of the movie, they just completely contradict.
14:24
Jmike
Or is it just a matter?
14:26
Case
But here's the thing. The fact that we get like the whole like twist, the plot twist is that the opening text crawl is a lie. That is a move. I don't think I've ever seen that before. Like that's oh, Palpatine's actually dead kind of thing somehow Palpatine, even though we introduced it in the text crawl or like, oh, Luke was like. Luke didn't actually go to Tatooine to cover anyone. That's not actually Luke. That's Luke Skywalker doing some sort of like weird twist in the. Like to go against the status quo. But the status quo is only from the text girl at the beginning. Because that's the only thing that really makes us be like convinced that they're aliens and that they're.
15:04
CeeJay
And then they show up. Spaceship.
15:06
Case
Well, yeah, they show, but they also look really human. So you know, maybe they're just the thing from the comics which like that was a weird thing going into the marketing where everyone's like, oh, they're aliens coming to this. And I'm like, well, in the comics they're not actually aliens. They're humans that have been like advanced by the celestials. Like but I guess they're making it aliens. I, I can live whatever. Then it's like, oh no. They kind of are like. They're weird robots built to look like humans and be forever cyborgs. It was closer at least I don't.
15:40
CeeJay
Of the Eternals comics that I, I, I read which were not many. I was very confused when they, when we get into this film and they explain the deviants and stuff like that. And the deviants are just like muscle dogs. Like they're not like humanoid until they become humanoid. Like that was very strange. It sort of is reflects it reflective of Marvel's pension of having like faceless things to just punch. But like I, I guess it was this movie's trying to do so much because like they're aliens but they're also like linked to various. Like Greece, not just Greek, but like mythological like legends like Gilgamesh.
16:41
Jmike
They're all there.
16:41
CeeJay
Athena and Makari the speedster. Yeah, it's Like, I was just. I found myself always trying to catch up to it, and I can't not be in the know while the characters are also not in the know. You can have one, you cannot have both, especially when there's so many of them that you have to. That we have to be introduced to for the very first time. Like, we don't even get to Kumail until, like, almost the midpoint of the movie.
17:18
Case
Yeah. Phastos is like the third act, basically.
17:21
CeeJay
Yeah.
17:21
Case
Break into three.
17:23
CeeJay
So it's. It's a very strange thing. But I also want to chat about, I think the worst example of the Marvel movies being trailers for the next movie thing that I have encountered in one of these movies, and that is the very existence of the Dane Whitman character.
17:51
Case
I know why the. Is he there? Aside from the fact that the most famous arc from the 90s was the. The Cersei Dane Whitman arc. Like, where I found out about the Eternals. Like, that's the only reason I can think about having that character there, which is that, like, oh, yeah, there was a whole thing in the Avengers about how they were. And he was also hooking up with Crystal and saw there's such a Real Housewives situation going on in 90s Avengers comics. Like, you have no idea.
18:17
CeeJay
That sounds. I would. I would love a Real Housewives.
18:21
Case
When the movie ended, I had to turn to my wife and explain, like, break down all the tea. And I was like, this is like such a crazy era right there. Of like, all right, so Cersei's going crazy, but she's psychically linked to Black Knight, and he's making her feel more sane. But at the same time, like, her former lover Icarus is showing up and trying to convince her to go back and deal with the mad Weary. Meanwhile, Black Knight is, while psychically linked to Cersei, also hooking up with Crystal from the Inhumans.
18:46
CeeJay
Oh, Cersei had Mad Weary in there. Yeah. Okay, gotcha.
18:51
Case
While at the same time, she's being stalked by another reality's version of Dane Whitman, who has infiltrated the Avengers with other reality versions of Avengers, like, all replacing their. Their accurate people, including the Vision, which is why he ended up with the red and yellow body after being like, in. In the. The all white version from the 80s. Like, again. Meanwhile, Quicksilver is very aware that his wife is sleeping with the Black Knight, and he's pretty pissed off about this whole situation. And like, of course, Crystal Lake only linked up with. With Quicksilver after previously dating Johnny Storm. And Deciding to have an affair with Quicksilver. So she just likes drama.
19:24
CeeJay
See, this is the stuff we need in the movie.
19:27
Jmike
There's not enough time. This movie took up almost three hours. There still wouldn't be enough time for that.
19:31
Case
Well, you know, here's the thing. This movie is so similar to the Old Guard.
19:35
CeeJay
Yes.
19:35
Case
In terms of, like, how it's structured and what they're doing with it. Which is weird that we're also dealing with this, like, big thing going on with them. So, like, the fact that it's about a bunch of people living throughout history together as a small little community is kind of an invention of. For this movie. Because, like, the. There. There's a lot of Eternals in the comics. They have whole cities and their whole pantheon. There's a lot of stuff going on. It's not like five of them. Kind of like how it's what, like seven total in this movie? Like, not very much. Like, it's. It's that structure right there that they're superimposing here. And, like, the fact that the Eternals can die and, like, are not.
20:10
Case
Are not invulnerable is like a weird, like, power down for this movie that's like, kind of just there for the purpose of like, making the. Making it smaller than it needs to be, but at the same time being so weird and abstract.
20:22
CeeJay
Here's the thing. I wish that it would have chosen a side because this is like three movies wrapped in one. And I would have. I don't know if anybody else would have, but I would have accepted a more intimate movie that was about them having these. That was about them having these sort of philosophical arguments rather than, like, we, like, touch on it a little bit and then we have to go do the thing where we're on a beach and we're just like, throwing discs at each other and flying up into the air and stuff is coming out into tiamat, coming out to earth.
21:07
CeeJay
I think that you pick one of those things, make the sequel about the philosophy or make this movie about the philosophy, and no one is even able to say their piece because there's like sort of a ticking clock going. And I just wish the movie wasn't trying to do so much. Which is weird because I'm not usually that person. I am usually the person who's just like, everything you have to tell me about these people, tell me in the first movie. And if you can come up with a better, like, a cool way to get them back, cool, that's great. I feel what's the move. Shazam.
21:51
Jmike
Oh, yeah.
21:51
CeeJay
A lesser movie than Shazam Would have saved the rest. Spoilers for Shazam Would have saved the rest of the kids turning into Shazam, Folks for a sequel.
22:03
Case
Yeah, totally.
22:04
CeeJay
And it didn't.
22:05
Case
It put J. Mike remembers just how excited I was in theaters.
22:08
Jmike
I remember. Oh, God, he was so excited.
22:10
CeeJay
Oh, I got to see that movie two weeks before it came out. I was. And I ran out screaming to everyone having to go see Shazam. And I think that this movie sort of, like, tested that theory or want of mine to its limits because there's so much of this that could have been better fleshed out if they had chosen. It's trying to do, like, 16 things, and if they had chosen six of those things to do, I think that we would have come away with a more coherent movie and a movie with something larger to say. It just seems like all of this stuff is bubbling under the surface or is just, like, just off screen, and no one is satisfied with it, which is strange.
23:01
CeeJay
But I will say that something that's interesting about Marvel movies is that with the interconnectedness and all that, even when I don't like the movie, I'm always like, well, I'm interested to see how this affects everything else. I would imagine that the Eternals are gonna return in the Thor movie or something. It seems like you'd be the closest to that stuff. But I am interested in seeing how they can take the. In the same way that even though I wasn't head over heels for the Captain Marvel movie, I was super interested in see her again because she's a really interesting presence to have in She's Superman. She's a very interesting presence to have in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and I want to see her fight Shang Chi, but that's not here nor there. But. Yeah.
23:54
CeeJay
I just wish that we could have chosen just a few things to focus on and the movie had a tighter story to tell.
24:04
Case
Yeah. Should we talk about the deviant in the room in terms of the plot? Like, by the time we got to the third act, I was not sure why the deviant plot was there at all, aside from just to, like, get you to the third act because they.
24:19
CeeJay
Needed people to punch.
24:21
Case
But, like, if this was a smarter movie, I feel like they would have had some kind of reckoning with the lead deviant, where he's part of the team. And then by the. Like, he. Because, like, there is that half a moment, and then they, like, continue to fight him, and it's just like, wait, hold on, fuck. Hold on. I thought the whole point was that they were like, kind of realizing they're all parts of this machine and that they're all breaking their role in the machine.
24:42
Jmike
Yeah.
24:42
Case
Still going to be fighting the. No, fuck you.
24:45
Jmike
I was like, what is. What is going on here? What is the purpose of this? What? Okay. Like, you could clearly see that he's gained sentience. Okay. He's like, talking to people like, hey, you know, we are all slaves to this machine. Right? They're like, what? And he flies off. Right?
25:02
Case
Like, that could have been really interesting, at least from. I mean, it might be cliche, but at least it would be, like, fun to see, like the whole, we are all part of this machine. Let us break the mold. Agent Smith and a Neo teaming up would be really cool.
25:18
CeeJay
Yeah, well, yeah. And the fact that they're all fighting Ikaris is revealed to be the sort of spoilers. Oh, did we not already do the spoiler thing?
25:28
Case
Yeah, we already.
25:31
CeeJay
But yeah, with Icarus turning out to be the Big Bad in the end, it's interesting that we spent so much time off the coasts of wherever fighting Icarus. And Crow, I think is the.
25:47
Case
Yeah, it's Crow. Yeah.
25:48
CeeJay
Crow was not a part of that fight, but Qrow was just off fighting Thena somewhere.
25:54
Case
And a big part of that fight is Phastos, who doesn't show up until the end of the movie. Aside from, like, at the very beginning.
26:01
CeeJay
And also because they are not together in the present day timeline, you aren't. You're seeing really sort of damaged dynamics between everyone. But the sort of reveal and was it Portugal or wherever where they broke up? The reveal of what happened to cause that damage?
26:28
Jmike
Yeah, it was Mexico.
26:29
CeeJay
Mexico, I think it was. Yeah. So whatever happened to cause that damage, that reveal was not, I feel like, sufficient enough to let us know where all these characters stood with each other. I had no idea who felt what about whom. With the exception of maybe Druig and Ikaris, because they were dudes and they scowled and like. And it's really weird that with the exception of all of the stuff going on with Sprite, none of the other female characters had relationships with each other, had any discernible dynamic.
27:12
Case
Like.
27:12
CeeJay
Like Kingo seems scared of Icarus. That's something, I guess. Druig and Ikaris butt heads. Gilgamesh has this sort offshoot thing with Thena, but no one else is really affected by that, I guess, unless until, like, she starts attacking people. But like, and. And Druig and Makkari have their relationship. But what is Makkari's relationship to Cersei? What is the sprite's relationship to Thena? How did all of this time apart affect them in that way? How did all of this time apart, knowing that their sort of mission was complete and that they could just sort of fuck off and do whatever. How. How did all of that time change them? Part of them being actual eternal beings led to, like, lead to, like, jokes about being really old, but it never seemed to change anyone's perspective.
28:15
CeeJay
It never seemed to inform why they do what they do. And this is interesting because that stuff that Chloe Zhao is good at, she's good at that interior stuff. She's good at developing characters mindsets from the beginning of a story to the end of a story and changing them along the way or having their resolve change people around them. But this movie is so concerned with letting you know that, like, the celestials created everything and with the punching and showing you the sort of Valyrian world and all of that kind of stuff, that you don't have time to actually sit with these people and figure out who they are.
29:01
CeeJay
So you get to the end of the movie, and I don't know who Cersei is, that the evolution of her powers, I guess, is supposed to be able to make me feel a certain way about what she can do and what that means for her, but it doesn't.
29:15
Jmike
Did they ever explain that?
29:17
CeeJay
Yes, they explained it by saying that at the beginning, they were like, she can't transpose. What is the word?
29:25
Case
Living matter.
29:27
CeeJay
Transmute living matter.
29:29
Jmike
Yeah.
29:30
Case
Which is, by the way, I don't understand how that works. And also, she is Circe, as in the person who turns people into pigs.
29:37
Jmike
But I was like, it was because she got Ajak's little orb that it amplified her powers. Or is it just because that just.
29:43
CeeJay
Meant that she gets to talk to Big Red?
29:50
Case
Oh, I thought that was, like, an opening up of her understanding of the nature of her powers.
29:53
Jmike
That's the thing. That's the whole thing.
29:56
Case
We don't have a good. We can't agree on this whole situation. We have all seen this movie. We can't articulate exactly how that was.
30:02
Jmike
Supposed to go because I was like, that's what I thought it was. I thought that she got the orb and she was like, the prime designate and, like, it amplified her powers.
30:09
CeeJay
I didn't know that amplified her powers at all. I just thought that means she got a direct line to the fire truck face.
30:15
Case
Well, like, CJ going Off of what you're saying in terms of how characters change, I think the interesting way you could have done something is go the exact opposite way. Like, the Eternals are very explicitly, like, implacable, like, set in their ways to the point where they don't have changes. So the idea that one would change at the very. In how they would approach things and actually side against the Celestial Plan. What could be the really interesting point?
30:41
CeeJay
That.
30:41
Case
That if they're all so set in their ways that by the time we're seeing the modern day, like, it doesn't matter how much technology has changed, if nothing else has changed, like, everything about them will always stay the same like that. Because, like, there's this idea in Marvel comics in general that, like, immortality can only be maintained if you have a focus, which most things do on a specific level. So, like, there's like, the elders of the universe, like the Collector or the Grandmaster, like, characters that we've seen in the MCU who are. Who maintain their sanity, such as it is, by virtue of, like, the vast stretch of time by having this, like, singular obsession. And the Eternals have a similar representation of that.
31:18
Case
Like, Phastos is the most technically advanced of them or like, the most tech focused one of them, but they're all like, big about building shit and coming up with crazy Kirby stuff. And Makari's entire shtick is figuring out how the. How to go faster than they went before. And like, they keep building cooler bikes and more awesome spaceships and whatever just to go faster and faster. And that's their entire thing, like a need for speed right there. That, like Gilgamesh or the Forgotten One or Hero or whatever name you want to give him in it is always about being this, like, physical specimen of the Eternals that, like, each of them has their focus, which is why their powers deviate from each other. But they're actually. They actually all have the same powers.
32:03
Case
It's just each one of them, like, has an emphasis on a different thing. And like, to explore that in this movie would be really cool. But, like, they actually kind of don't. Like some characters don't. Like, they don't change and develop as. As characters, but they don't make a point about it. It's not. It doesn't feel weird when you talk to them about it. Like, it just seems like a lack of character development.
32:21
CeeJay
As opposed to a lack of character development.
32:23
Case
Yeah, exactly. They're not doing it on purpose. They're just not developing the characters here.
32:28
CeeJay
It's Interesting that you should say that, because, like I said, the movie is so. And I go back and forth on whether I blame this on the sort of narrative economics of the Marvel movie or Chloe Zhao, but this movie spends so much time trying to put forth the image of import and the. The esthetics of grandeur that they do all of this sort of side talking that sort of gestures to philosophy but never actually says anything meaningful. And that is a problem when all of your characters are, like, constantly sort of, like, spouting off platitudes about humanity and what their presence on Earth means.
33:36
CeeJay
But then in the climax of your film, it opens up a pretty large question about whether or not the Earth deserves to survive if its survival will prevent the birthing of a bunch of new lives elsewhere in the universe. And then so many characters just, like, opt out of the conversation. Like, so many people, so many of them don't have anything to, like, they fight Icarus, but they don't have anything to say about it. Kingo just leaves, which, you know.
34:14
Case
Yeah, like, people have, like, said negative things about that. I enjoyed, actually, the perspective of having that character who's like, I agree with them, but I'm not going to take up their cause. Like, I'm not going to. Like, it's not going to push me past the, like, other morals that I have. So, like, I saw that as an. At least having an interesting philosophical standpoint.
34:34
Jmike
I thought it was just that he was kind of torn because they were his friends, but he agreed with Icarus. But he knew that fighting Icarus was a lost cause. He just didn't want to get involved with it.
34:43
Case
Well, but he also agreed with Icarus. Yeah, like. Yeah, like, I like having that level of conflict with the character.
34:48
Jmike
Yeah. Because, like, he straight up says, you don't. You don't fight your family. But he agreed with Icarus.
34:53
CeeJay
But he was like, yeah, it's just like, I. Like, I kind of think that I. I understand that, like, Cersei has, like, a boyfriend and students here, and she's just like, hey, cool humans. And I understand that Icarus is like, this is a job were sent here to do. But everybody around them. What does Thena even think about this? Or does Thena just wanna fight? She's got her own stuff going on because she's got, like, space Alzheimer's. And then the sprite. Sprite is just, like, on Icarus's side because she's in love with him. That feels kind of like an intellectual cop out. We don't really have any perspective on Druig, because Druig is just like, oh, we can just. Druig is comfortable, like, taking away people's free will and taking over their minds and stuff like that.
35:50
CeeJay
But he also does, like, cares about whether or not the planet lives or dies, even if he doesn't. Like, I think there are too many characters and then. And we are spend so much time with them, but we come away utterly confused about how they feel about everything. And in a. And that is. That's not good. That. That's. That's just not good storytelling. I. I really wanted this movie to be more than it was. And maybe that's my fault because I'm becoming increasingly disillusioned with Marvel movies. And maybe I was just putting too much expectations on it. But also, the movie is really ambitious and ambition is cool, but if you fall flat.
36:53
Jmike
I was trying to figure out when I was watching this, I was like, what is the purpose of this movie exactly? Is it to tell this grandiose story and elaborate on it, or is it just throw extra characters at you that you'll see three movies down the road from now? Yeah, it was like, is it trying to be the next Guardians of the Galaxy but for adults?
37:12
CeeJay
It just feels like a trading card pack.
37:14
Jmike
Yeah, you're just like, all right, cool. These are characters that you'll see later on the whole thing with, like, the spoilers again. Thanos's brother. You're like, okay, yay, cool, we'll see him later. Or the part with Kip and the black knife. And I was like, I know what that is. This is gonna be awesome. But like, four movies from now, so, like, is it here to tell the story or is it. He'll just here to just like, start off the next phase of movies? It can't really decide what it wants to be most of the time.
37:41
Case
I mean, I feel like the after credit stuff, the both the appearance of Star Fox and then the confirmation of Black Knight, which has, by the way, a Blade cameo. Like, that's supposed to be the voice.
37:50
Jmike
I know.
37:52
CeeJay
Somebody had to explain that to me. I walked out of it and I was just like, well, all right.
37:59
Case
We debated after watching the movie who it could be and settled as Blade as one of three possibilities and then saw a confirmation. I was like, fuck. All right, cool.
38:07
Jmike
At least.
38:08
Case
At least he was a possible character in that scenario. So cool. But yeah, like, the. The after credit stuff, I think, like, that is just teaser bait. Like, that's just like leading everything. But like, you know, and the star, Fox 1, like, is such a nothing scene in terms of, like, where it doesn't lessen a movie. For me, the Dan Whitman stuff bugs me that there's so much of it in this movie. Like, if he was someone that Cersei knew, and that was sort of it at the beginning of the movie, like, she. Like, he was covering for her, and then she left or something. And then he shows up at the very end with the sword. You know, like, that's still.
38:45
Jmike
That's still.
38:45
Case
Like, it still would have been teaser bait, but, like, that's what you expect for these kind of scenes. Like, he took up so much space in this movie.
38:51
CeeJay
I just think that it's so funny that, like, the story is essentially resolved with the notable exception of, like, an eye. Like an eye socket and, like, four fingers sticking out of Atlantic Ocean. Yeah.
39:06
Jmike
Also, I didn't. I didn't know that he killed him. I thought they just, like, froze him, because I wasn't sure about that, because, like, they didn't. They'll tell you that till later. And I was like, all right, so you put him back to sleep or he's hibernating. No, he's dead.
39:18
CeeJay
Oh, well, that was news to me. So I'm glad you confirmed that for me. I just think it's funny that all of that stuff gets kind of handled and we say our goodbyes and then, like, Jon Snow shows back up to be like, you know, I gotta tell you, I'm pretty important, too.
39:33
Case
And.
39:36
Jmike
Then.
39:37
CeeJay
And then one of. One of, I will say the most compelling images that I have ever seen in a Marvel movie. That face appearing in the sky just over the planet Earth, like, that is just. Is a really cool image in a movie full of, I think, generally well shot, cool, like, photography. She even managed to. All of her movies take place in and around South Dakota. She managed to get them back to South Dakota.
40:11
Jmike
But the dude, the face appearing in the sky. All I said was like, show me what you got.
40:19
CeeJay
That's funny.
40:20
Jmike
I was like, oh, stop. They did it.
40:22
CeeJay
That's hilarious. But I have a question. So. Because I kept looking over to the two children I was with, to the two. The two children that were next to me who were very excited to see the new Marvel movie, who came to see this film. And I kept looking over at them during sort of, like, these very long exposition dumps, these sort of, like, softer, quiet moments where people are, like, cupping each other's faces in their hands or whatever to see if they were Interested in this because Marvel movies are incredibly overstimulating. Generally. They have a lot going on. There's a joke, there's an action sequence, there is a side gag. There's like, they're movies that are sort of like built from the ground up, specifically, not to leave you with too much time to think.
41:11
CeeJay
And I want to ask y', all, is this something where we are reaching the narrative or thematic limits of the type of story you can tell with a western studio superhero movie?
41:31
Jmike
No, I wouldn't go that far.
41:33
CeeJay
And this is just a genuine question. Because I don't know the answer.
41:36
Jmike
No, because like, I think this movie just had too much going on and it left too many. Too many sticks or sticks in the fire. And it never really close a story loop.
41:51
CeeJay
But none of these movies really ever do well.
41:54
Jmike
Like for. For this one exactly. Like you had like the deviance thing we talked about a little while ago where he's good, he gained sentience and then poof. And then you have the story with Kit. You have the Icarus actually die. Or is he just like flying into the sun somewhere? Because I thought I could have sworn they were immortal. I don't know.
42:16
Case
He's sort of dead. But also they have plenty of ways to bring him back. And we'll talk about the structure of the Eternals.
42:25
Jmike
Is he dead? Or is he not dead? Or is he doing a Superman thing? I don't know.
42:30
Case
It's not a sun dip situation. He doesn't fly in there to absorb energy necessarily.
42:34
Jmike
He doesn't really need to. And then I was very upset. That much of a main chicken, aj she just let herself die. And I was like, fight back, please don't just like hug him. But there's a lot going on here. And they never really finished a. They don't really finish them properly. I feel like if it's been done properly, this would be a whole different story. But because like, case in a minute, it's kind of messy. It's a messy movie and it never really like tries to nail down a single point. It's going everywhere. If they had tried. If they had stuck to a main point and gone along with that, it wouldn't great. But it doesn't just does it at all.
43:16
Case
I think that this movie could have been more successful. Like, I. I don't think that it's past the point of what we could accomplish in a movie like this. Like, I think part of the problem is that the stated goal of the celestial, like the stated one versus the real one. Both are kind of gibberish. And I don't know if the movie's super clear on it up until we get to the like, oh, it's actually an egg thing. And I. I think that if they had structured this in a scenario of what the goal of you, the eternals were, is to cultivate mankind into ascendancy so that they join you in the sun kind of thing like a super like Superman 78 kind of speech.
43:53
Case
But that actually is part of the characters as they are and like, kind of sometimes the excuse for why the celestials do anything. Like the. The egg thing is one of the possible reasons why the celestials play an interest in Earth in. In the comics. But that's only one of the. The excuses for it. Another one is that they are trying to develop beings who are akin to them. And so, like, thing characters like Franklin Richards, who is a reality more like warper on a high level, is seen as a potential candidate for ascendancy to a celestial status. So I. I think that the idea that maybe that they are trying to shepherd humanity into a position and then they find out that humanity isn't so much a thing that they're shepherding, but they're actually just a crop they're growing.
44:37
Case
And like, you could maybe even play with the imagery of the. The difference of those two lifestyles in like, Babylonian times. Like, you could make that case that what they thought they were doing was this noble process of cultivating humanity. And really all that they were doing was prepping them to be harvested. Like, that's the juxtaposition right there. And like, they don't. I don't think they hit that nail hard enough because, like, the purpose of why they're there is just like, oh, we're gonna pull back on the deviants. But the deviants thing is also like its own kind of gibberish and doesn't really make sense. And like, the whole about them being aliens I think is goddamn stupid. And, like, doesn't work in terms of like driving these characters or explaining anything.
45:17
Case
It's like such a weird detail there that is just confusing and doesn't match up with any thing. Like, I, like, I. I'm not trying to be like, oh, but the comics. But like, I. They made it more confusing on purpose. And I'm mad about that because I think the fact that it's confusing is why people don't like this movie.
45:37
CeeJay
Yeah, I mean, you're correct about that. I. I struggle to. I feel like An Eternals movie being confusing was just always going to be. It was just the prophecy. Those comics are, like I said, very difficult to parse and kind of hard to sort of like give yourself over to in the way that I think a lot of Jack Kirby comics are. Personally, for me, I would not say that's for everybody. A lot of people really love Jack Kirby's work. I find his space stuff in particular to be nigh impenetrable. But the. I don't know, it's. I don't know how you condense this epic thing that they are trying to do into a Marvel movie. And I don't say Marvel movie as a pejorative. I mean that it's a specific thing that people want specific stuff from.
46:51
CeeJay
And it's a Herculean task that was sort of like just the ball was dropped on.
46:57
Case
Which is a shame, because the inspiration for Hercules is in this movie. Well, and like, I think this is what were saying before. Like the movie didn't have a hook to get people who are invested in the MCU here. Like they had like, stop and be like, why didn't you stop Thanos? Oh, you could only do stuff with the deviants, which then he's another Eternal. Like at the end of the movie, they finally reveal and you're like, what? Like, wait, like, it's all part of the same shit. Okay. The. The celestials should have been the big mystery that we're trying to find out more about. Because like, that's a bigger thing throughout this whole world of the mcu like being like, all right, so what is. What is their deal?
47:35
Case
We should have found out little bits about that and then like had some like some kind of reason why things were happening here. Well enough. And I think those could have like kind of saved it. But it's. It is this big sprawling superhero movie that feels the need to be set in the present day. Even though, like, aside from Kingo, I can't think of a real reason why they should be set in the present day. Like maybe Fastos with the atom bomb, but like everything, like, even with the celestial coming out of the ground, like, this is good myth making stuff right there. If like, you know, like now that now in the comics there is a mountain that is like a. The dreaming Celestial.
48:10
Case
And like they could have like used that as sort of like a similar structure here where if this was taking place 2,000 years ago. And that's where like. Or further 4,000, you know, whatever you want to, like wherever you want to set It. And like, all of a sudden that, like, at the end of the movie, like, the celestial that's emerging from the ground starts to, you know, accrue dirt and grime and so. And eventually, like, it's covered to the point where it becomes a mountain of sediment and so forth. And, like, maybe a famous one in the world. Like, those would be logical things, too. And then you don't have to, like, worry so much about, like, what. Well, what are the Eternals up to? Well, the last time we saw them was a few thousand years ago, but.
48:44
CeeJay
Case they, it has to be in President Day because Cersei has to date a supporting character from the new Blade movie.
48:52
Jmike
Right?
48:52
Case
Exactly. Exactly. It's.
48:53
CeeJay
It's.
48:53
Case
There's so much going on here. You know, like I said, if it wasn't tied into the mcu, there would be no question here, or you sideline them for different reasons. Like. Like, have them all be, like, in positions of power. Kingo is a great example of that right now. So is Druig. Like, they're both in positions where they probably couldn't just jump out of their chairs to, like, go fight big cosmic events earlier in the mcu. But all the other ones are like, why. Why wasn't Cersei doing anything? Oh, they were forbidden. Well, sell us on how that feels, like, endemic to who they are. You know, again, like, the whole, like, they don't really change, but at the same time, they're all fairly wishy washy. They don't have strong points of view.
49:30
CeeJay
Yeah, can. Let's. Let's switch gears. Did y' all like any. Did y' all like anything about the movie?
49:37
Case
I. I generally like the casting.
49:38
Jmike
Yeah.
49:38
Case
Like, across the board. That was good. I really like the Gilgamesh tha. Relationship.
49:42
Jmike
Yes.
49:44
Case
I thought that was really good.
49:45
Jmike
That reminded me of the. The Hulk Black Widow thing where he was like, hold my hand. You're going. You're on. Wait, what was the line? Like, you're going far away or something like that.
49:55
CeeJay
Sun's going down. Something like that.
49:56
Jmike
Yeah. There you go.
49:57
Case
Oh, sun's getting real low. Is the Hulk one? Yeah.
50:00
Jmike
I was like, if they had said that would have been awesome.
50:02
CeeJay
I was a big fan of casting as well. I was. The Thena and Gilgamesh relationship. It's always great to see Don Lee. I love watching him work, and it's cool to see Angelina Jolie back in action hero mode. I do have an issue with Marvel movies, including this one where people are fighting, but hits don't feel like they're landing and for a moment you get a reprieve from that where Makkari is taking on Ikaris. I thought that was really cool.
50:34
Case
That was a great scene.
50:35
CeeJay
I thought that was really cool. I also love the Makkari and Druig relationship. I think that they had way more chemistry than Richard Madden and Gemma Chan. And they were. And they were. I wanted them on screen as much as possible and we didn't get that much of it. I've always been a big fan of Barry Keegan, who plays Druig ever since I saw him in Dunkirk. He was fantastic in that. He's rumored to be in the Batman. Karun. I liked Karun Kingo's Batman.
51:12
Case
Oh, yeah, he was great. The Kingo stuff. I fucking loved everything with Camille Nanjiani on screen. I was there for, like, they, like, oh, don't worry about him. I've known him for 50 years. Like, he thought I was a vampire. He tried to stab me in the chest and I've apologized, but not enough.
51:29
CeeJay
That stuff was really fun.
51:31
Case
That actually, like, that is the biggest refutation for my point about, like, why does it have to be modern day? I think the Bollywood stuff was fucking amazing. Like, that was such a perfect use of a character.
51:39
CeeJay
I will say this, and it is because Kumail Nanjani is a standup comedian with a brand new body. There is a level of visual splendor and kinetic timing to Bollywood filmmaking that this film's Bollywood moment just did not capture. And I was so disappointed.
52:13
Case
But now, do you think that was Kumail or do you think that was more of like their choreographer or just like Chloe's aesthetic there just not quite being Bollywood.
52:20
CeeJay
I think all of it. All of all of the above. I mean, there was choreography and the dancers were hitting it and he wasn't. So everybody was dropping the ball. But the. I loved Karun, loved Lauren Ridloffen, Barry Keegan and I. I do. Because you brought up the old guard. I do want to talk about Fastos and his husband and his kid. I adored that sequence. I adored the relationship that was really good that Phastos has with his family. The. I cannot remember the actor's name, but the actor who plays his husband is an actual. Is actually a gay Muslim actor who I've seen in several things. So it was really cool to see him and a mate. And the stuff he's been in has been very independent.
53:11
CeeJay
So it was really cool to see him in a major studio picture that was really awesome. And then they kiss and then the movie moves forward and nobody's the wiser. And the thing is that's it, right? That's all like we want. He is in a loving relationship in the way that other people get together, be in heterosexual people, get to be in loving relationships in these kinds of movies. And then the story moves forward and he as a queer character or whatever gets to be a part of the action going forward, gets his moments, does all that stuff. That's literally all it takes. And it's so interesting that like. And maybe there was.
54:02
CeeJay
I just kept hearing more about like sort of the diversity of the overall cast and mostly about Salma Hyatt because she said she kept crying when she put on her superhero suit. And Lauren Ridloff for being the first deaf character. But after years and years of Disney saying, hey y', all, the first gay character is in this movie. Oh, no wait. The first gay character is in this movie. Oh, wait a minute. The first gay character this movie. But stop right there. The first gay character is in that movie. Over there. I was really just comforted by the fact that this character just got to be here and exist. So that was really cool to me.
54:50
CeeJay
Felt the same way about it that I felt about, you know, the murder husbands in the Old Guard and the murder husbands and I was super into it. There are part also like I was talking about the production design on it when they're actually, you know, given a shit is really cool. I like the design of the Domo, their spaceship. I think that the general like civvie costume design is really well done, especially on Cersei and on Makkari. I think that their costumes are interesting. They look different than the regular sort of Marvel superhero costume which seems to be like themed motorcycle wear, you know, and they look like they serve some sort of purpose and they are in visually in concert with each other, but they don't all just look the same. Some people have like capes and stuff like that.
55:57
CeeJay
Some people have those sort of Greek glowing cloth kind of things going on. The bottom half of the costume, I think they're really well put together. And Chloe Zhao, if the lady can't do nothing, she can shoot a field of grass, she can shoot the beach. She knows how to compose a really eye catching visual. And I'm glad that was able to carry over because even with directors who have been doing it longer than her. Well, I will say I'm happy to say that to see that her visual style was able to Be translated here, because Marvel tends to pluck directors who do not have discernible visual styles because they can just sort of blend into the house style a little bit more. And it was cool to see this as, like, a change of pace. And those are my positives.
56:54
Case
Yeah. Sticking with fastest for a second. I rather liked the. The sort of look of his. Of his, like, kind of like artificer tech, magic stuff that was going on there. That was pretty cool. But here's. Here's a question for you. Based on the. The teaser at the end of Shang Chi. Where are the rings of his, like, weird tech stuff, the 10 rings, because it has the same yellow energy effect as when Shang Chi has it. And, like, it is leading an audience member. When you watch the end of Shang Chi, where it's like, this thing is older than, like, X, Y or Z stuff that's going on here, it's much older. And the energy effects look like all the stuff we see in the trailers for the.
57:28
Case
For the Eternals at that point, making you think, oh, the rings must be some sort of artifact from the Eternals. And they look the. The way the rings move and the way they look in design are just like all the rings that. That Fastos uses in his tech stuff. And I kept thinking, like, oh, did he lose some of his rings at one point? And that became the. The ten Rings could be.
57:48
CeeJay
I was thinking much older. Because the Eternals are like, I've only been here for, like, 7,000 years, right?
57:56
Case
Yeah. That's only the existence of human civilization. Not even humanity. Like, just human civilization, sort of.
58:06
CeeJay
But you. You wake up and you're Kevin Feige, and you've got all the pieces on a board on, like, a little whiteboard. Where do you send these characters next? Because I have a hard time believing that there's going to be an Eternal sequel. I just think that they wanted these people on the board.
58:24
Case
Yeah. Or are they out there in the. In the world now? But like, that. Now that they have sort of taken a, like, a step back from, like, their original intent of being, like, we're just doing what the Celestial tells us. Like, does that mean they're going to be everywhere now?
58:36
CeeJay
I think that's interesting. I can't imagine that they're. Like I said earlier, I can't imagine they're gonna be too far away from whatever is happening in the next Thor movie.
58:50
Case
Well, and the way that the Eternals were tied into Marvel stuff before was through the Thor comics.
58:54
CeeJay
There you go.
58:55
Case
You gotta explain how these God beings are also dealing with these other God beings.
58:59
Jmike
They bring up Thor like five or six times in this movie anyway. Yeah, yeah. So it might be. They might show up again at the end of Love and Thunder. Yeah, we know.
59:08
Case
Or just. Or just throughout. I mean, the. So that like the ship left and like most of them left Earth right at the end. I'm like three.
59:15
Jmike
Like three.
59:16
CeeJay
Yeah, it was.
59:18
Jmike
Yeah.
59:18
CeeJay
Druig, Makari, Thena.
59:21
Jmike
Thena. That was it.
59:22
CeeJay
Yeah.
59:22
Jmike
Right.
59:23
Case
Yeah, yeah. And then on Earth. Sprite, who's now human.
59:25
Jmike
I have a question about that.
59:27
CeeJay
By all means.
59:28
Case
Okay.
59:28
Jmike
Why didn't she just age her up?
59:31
Case
Well, now she can age though.
59:33
Jmike
She was like. I was like the whole thing. She was like, well, I can't experience stuff like everyone else can because I'm a kid. I was like, so why not just age her up?
59:41
CeeJay
Well, I guess to give her a longer life than she would have. I mean, I think that if I was like. If that was the case, I don't think that like I would want, you know, was she like stepped being 13, I don't think that I would want like eight years of my life.
01:00:03
Jmike
At the beginning. She was like pretending to be like some co ed or whatever when you first meet her and she runs off and she's like 12. And I was like, oh, okay. But like I was like. I was like, why not just age her up to like.
01:00:14
Case
I mean, she also betrayed them. So like what they are also doing here is a death sentence dooming her powers. Yes, but I mean, but it is also from the. From the perspective of people who at this point are 6,000 years old, just as far as they remember letting, let alone the reincarnation of the plot.
01:00:30
Jmike
They gave her a choice though. So it was like a deficit. She chose to like be human. So I was like, why did I just H her up?
01:00:36
Case
But they'd have to deal with her regard. Like her powers were. Was a factor. Like she betrayed them. Like they'd have to deal with her in some regard.
01:00:43
Jmike
The.
01:00:43
Case
The choice to make her humans is a fairly humane. But like at the same time does remove her from the board as we keep saying.
01:00:52
Jmike
Did she lose her powers or she just be able to age now?
01:00:54
Case
I think she's human.
01:00:55
CeeJay
Yeah, I think she just.
01:00:57
Case
Her powers are gone. In that sense.
01:00:58
Jmike
I sort of just aged her up easier.
01:01:03
CeeJay
Yeah, I don't know. I think there are ways for these folks to wrap around in the ant man space. But like, yeah, like you said, I think and them being a Part of the Thor comics. It makes a lot of sense. So, yeah, that's probably when I think they're gonna show up next. I just want someone to expl.
01:01:27
Case
Yeah, Cersei just seems like a big player now. Like, she. Th. This is kind of her coming out story. And Cersei's always been the one that, like. Like I said, she was an Avenger. Like, the other ones don't join the Avengers. Like, she's out there in the world, like, participating and so forth, flirting with Captain America, like, and doing all that kind of stuff. So, like, she. She seems to be positioned now to be in that space, but, like, she's very powerful. Like, even. Even as stripped down in powers that she has in this movie versus her comic version, she's still incredibly powerful. She killed a God that was coming out of the planet. So, you know, it's kind of in the same ballpark of like a Wanda. Like, what are you gonna be doing now, huh?
01:02:09
CeeJay
I guess we'll see when Arishem is done judging. I gotta say, it was really funny. Cause you were talking about Reed Richards son Franklin, who I don't know much about, but I know that he's pretty powerful. And you were like, oh, he could possibly be a Celestial someday. And that is just a very funny concept to me. By the name alone, it's just like the Celestials. Arisham Ego, Tiamat Franklin and what's his face.
01:02:37
Jmike
What's the dude's name? They become like, best friends. Galactus. Is it Galactus?
01:02:44
Case
Well, yeah, depending on which book you're looking at. Yeah. He's had some interactions with Galen of Tah. And in the Earth X timeline, he actually becomes Galactus.
01:02:55
Jmike
He and Galactus all buddy. After a while, one of those timelines, I was like, huh, that's fun.
01:03:00
CeeJay
Interesting. I thought it was going to be like something where, like, you know, in comics where, like, characters become kids, like, they make.
01:03:09
Case
Well, Galactus became a human for a while.
01:03:10
Jmike
Freaky fries.
01:03:11
CeeJay
Like a child.
01:03:12
Case
No, he was just like a human. Like adult. Like, he. He became his. His cosmonaut or whatever the term was. Science. Not, I think, like, because he's from the universe that exists before our universe, which was like, all science driven in a way that our universe has a mix of magic and science.
01:03:27
CeeJay
Like I said, I'm a DC Comics.
01:03:29
Case
Person, but that's a branch of Marvel. I do love Marvel.
01:03:33
CeeJay
Marvel's got a lot going on, and it is very confusing to me. DC started talking about stuff like the anti life equation. I said Tap out.
01:03:45
Case
Well, and that is why we haven't done a Fourth World movie. We've had movies where Fourth World elements have been in there, but no one's gonna do the story of Mr. Miracle escaping apocalypse so that he can, like, rejoin his family on New Genesis.
01:03:58
Jmike
We all need none of that right now.
01:04:00
Case
That's gonna take some time before we're there.
01:04:02
Jmike
We just need to nail down a coherent story right now.
01:04:06
CeeJay
Oh, yeah. This is the last thing I'll say about it. I'm not. I, I'm. I am of the unpopular opinion that I don't necessarily think that D.C. needs a universe. Just start making movies, man.
01:04:16
Jmike
Just, like, do.
01:04:16
CeeJay
Do whatever I didn't like.
01:04:18
Case
I don't know if that's unpopular, since that's clearly what they're doing at this point.
01:04:21
CeeJay
Well, it seems unpopular on Twitter because that's what they're doing, and everyone seems to hate it.
01:04:27
Case
Every opinion's unpopular on Twitter, man.
01:04:29
Jmike
Yeah, Twitter. Twitter's not a real place.
01:04:32
CeeJay
But, yeah, no, I am interested in seeing how this stuff plays into the rest of the universe going forward. But, yeah, that's. That's really it. Maybe I'll. I'll do. This was a rewatch. I did it on Disney plus before. I watched this, and I was drunk, and that was great. So if you like it. It genuinely was. And I'm not saying it made the movie better. It just made my viewing experience better. I probably watch it again when there's, like, a Storm Akima commentary for it, but other than that, I, I, But I. That isn't even. I don't even know how much of an endorsement that is or isn't for the movie because I don't rewatch Marvel movies to begin with. So I don't know.
01:05:21
Case
Yeah. Can I Lore dump for a second here?
01:05:23
CeeJay
The movie did, so why can't you?
01:05:27
Case
So I mentioned that, like, Cersei's power are, like, way stripped down from where they are in the comics and that the Eternals actually all have the same powers. Like, one reason why it made sense to talk about this movie is because, like, Icarus looks very much like Superman throughout this whole movie. Like, he's a flying super strong guy with heat vision. None of the powers that he demonstrates in this movie are unique to him. They are all in the, like, the way it is in the comics. They all have all of those powers. They all have the heat vision blasts or atomic vision or whatever. They're all super strong. They're all psychic. They're all telekinetic. They can all change matter. They can all do illusions. They're all. They're all super fast. They all just have different degrees of it.
01:06:03
Case
And like I said, they focus on the ones that they want to be good at.
01:06:06
Jmike
And.
01:06:06
Case
And so you end up with characters like Icarus, who is the second strongest of the 616 eternals. He's the best flyer amongst them, hence the name Icarus. And he's like. He's described as being an arrow. He's a living weapon of the Celestials. Like that's kind of like his shtick there. Like he's tough enough to get into a fight with Black Vault, but Black Bolt is. Is impressive enough to actually win. But in that like, that kind of upper ballpark of like characters, Gilgamesh is crazy strong. Gilgamesh in this movie is called Gilgamesh exclusively, but he is the inspiration for Gilgamesh, the hero of Uruk. But he is also the inspiration for half of the legends of Hercules.
01:06:41
Case
And that is actually a pain point for the two of them that they split up the Labors and that they each argue about who should get the credit for which specific feat from myth. Which I think is like kind of a fun detail for that for those two characters.
01:06:54
CeeJay
Interesting.
01:06:54
Case
But then we have other reality versions of Eternals, such as Hyperion, who is a literal stand in for Superman.
01:07:00
CeeJay
Hyperion is an Eternal.
01:07:02
Case
Yes, some versions of Hyperion is.
01:07:04
CeeJay
But that's where I love the case. I love that you were like now don't think you understand now.
01:07:13
Case
The main Hyperion that like the one that was like the Squadron supreme in the. In the 70s, 80s, etc. That Hyperion is an Eternal. And in fact, when his eyes burn out in the series Squadron supreme, when they get stuck in 616, he becomes friends with Makkari. And Makkari teaches him how to reconfigure matter. And that's how he rebuilds his eyes with his superpowers and. Because that's like the thing that they do. But his. His energy blasts are the same as all that. Like all of his powers are just like a really. He's like not trained, but very gifted with their powers. And like there's the big Fantastic Four villain, the Overmind who can take over a planet with his mental powers. He's an Eternal. Like there's a lot of really powerful Eternals.
01:07:52
Case
Thanos is an Eternal, as we mentioned, but he's actually one of the weaker Eternals because he's from the an. Like he is a descendant from an offshoot that, like, it's a little more weirdly mixed, and he has, like, some deviant traits and whatnot going in. But then there's the whole thing about how they were created where it's. The Celestials come to a planet and they find a inappropriate race, and they implant the Celestial Seed in the populace. And that creates the potential for superpowers in them, but it also creates a shifting, predatory strain called the Deviants. And so they also created, like, the most. The most excellent, like, superpowered ones, which are the Eternals. And every world, they go to this.
01:08:28
Case
It has the cycle, which is why there are worlds that they never go to that the people there just aren't supposed to get superpowers, like the Cree. But then there are different configurations for this also. Like, the Skrull are actually the deviant strain of their race, having become dominant on the planet, having wiped out the main. The main family group and then also killed all but one of the Eternals of the Skrull planet, and that became their God of. Of their core. And it's a. That's. That's just, like, a really fun, like, offshoot there. But so, like, there's.
01:08:59
Case
There's this bigger lore going on that I think actually the movie ignores to its detriment, like, the idea that, like, the Eternals are literally supposed to be the most advanced humans possible, like, who have all the superpowers, that have all the craziness and so forth. They strip that down so that they are just kind of the X Men. Like, they each have their shtick, and that's it. And that's kind of a bummer because, like, that. Like, it's so, like, they're supposed to be this, like, weird beacon of what is possible that can't die because they're invulnerable. And if you somehow figured out how to kill them, because, like, nothing's that invulnerable, they just come back to life. And, like, it's just, like, kind of a bummer that we don't get all these. All the crazy that is in this movie. They don't.
01:09:39
Case
They could have gone even crazier. Like. Like. Like, do more with that. Like, Icarus is supposed to be like, oh, yeah, he's just really good at all this. Like everyone else, everyone's practiced their own thing. Cersei's practice changing shit to other stuff. Sprite has practiced illusion craft. Druig's practice controlling people's minds. Like, explore that whole concept of the Superman, because otherwise it just looks like, oh, yeah, we gave each of you a special power and didn't even really have a plan for how they were supposed to work together because that would also be kind of cool. Again, this movie has big thoughts about systems, but isn't doing anything with them. Like, how cool would this movie be is that eternals constantly die, but every time they die, they come back, but part of their memory is wiped.
01:10:15
Case
And also they're supposed to work in tandem to do stuff with humanity. And the fact that they split up is why humanity kind of goes crazy and like, allows, like, you know, capitalism to take over. It was them kind of lines up with the timeline.
01:10:29
Jmike
Yeah, that's actually. Yeah, yeah.
01:10:31
Case
Like, that's the. Like, like the colonial period is the shift from mercantilism to capitalism as the dominant driving economic force in the nation or in the world, spreading like a virus. So I think you could have done. You could have said stuff about that. Like, you could have done things about that. Like, you could have had one person be the person, the big driver for it. Like, fastest would be a logical choice for it. And it becomes a machine that he is no longer able to control. Like, that's where I get kind of bummed out about this movie because it's like, oh, look, we've got a cool shot of Richard Madden flying with energy blasts. And then it's like, oh, but he's the only one who gets all the powers. Everyone else has, like, one specific power that they do a thing with.
01:11:07
Case
Then it has, like, construct weapons. And Gilgamesh also has construct weapons, but they're just like gloves.
01:11:13
CeeJay
Yeah, they're like those, like, the. What, sock emboppers?
01:11:17
Case
Yeah, I, I thought it was a cool look, but I, I kind of wish they all just had those so that it didn't feel like it was like his one power is he makes hulk hands.
01:11:25
Jmike
Well, he does. Like, the power stomps to the shockwave stomps too. Like, he.
01:11:28
Case
Right.
01:11:29
Jmike
I was like, that. That's kind of cool. I guess.
01:11:32
Case
I suppose everyone had similar effects when they were doing stuff like. Like, I kind of like the idea that they all have an armor that we just can't see at any point. And like, if every time anyone was hit with anything you, like, flashed or something like that, in terms of presenting powered individuals on a. In a cinematic setting, there should be a point. Like the fact that someone has a superpower, either should be a metaphor for their character, it should be a quandary. That they have to deal with. Like, what with this power of action? Am I, like, am I utilizing, like what am I doing for the world with it? Or what challenge am I facing as a result of it? Like, am I tempted by the virtue of my power for a thing?
01:12:08
Case
Like, what conversations are we really having for most of these characters? Like, I think for the most part it's kind of interchangeable. But Icarus has like, the least helpful power in terms of actually doing the creating of a society kind of thing, but he's really good at just killing a thing. And like, if, like, the question should be like, oh, I'm here literally just to like, call the herd, like, I'm here to wipe out, to kill a thing and that. That's it. But if their only purpose is fighting deviants, they should all just have those exact same powers. And if their purpose is cultivating humanity, then like, think Icarus's role should either be like, very necessary, like a necessary evil, or conjugal visit, you know, like, what, like, what are we trying to say with each of these characters?
01:12:49
Case
What are we doing with it? Like, like what?
01:12:51
CeeJay
And how do they work in tandem with one another? Because, like, because there's no, like, there's.
01:12:56
Case
No team battle that feels like, appropriate aside from, like, once, like, Makari is coming into play with, like, fastest and like, they're the last two we get in the team.
01:13:03
CeeJay
And. And then even just to their point of trying to like, push humanity and society forward and all that kind of stuff. Like, everyone seemed to have, like. Well, not everyone. Like, Phastos helped them build tools and weapons. I guess Circe irrigated a field. But I didn't really understand, like, how those powers were working in tandem with each other to create the society that they were trying to convince us. Sort of all came from these ten beings being here. I don't understand how it helped human. How exactly it helped humans along. And I don't understand what function they. The powers served in relation to one another.
01:13:59
Case
Yeah, because like, they each had clearly the ability to assume a role. Like Druig, for example. Being able to control things, you can be like, all right, well, through my control, I can drive humanity to. To labor in such a way that is collectively beneficial as opposed to their separate interests. Like, kind of like separating them, you know, FAST is clearly having this like, tech proficiency is like its own thing. I mean, then we got our three fighters in the group with Icarus, Gilgamesh and Thena. You're like, okay, what are we doing here? Oh, just. Just fighting stuff. Or maybe having that as like a specific role, having like a cast system between them, like the builders and the fighters in that group, like working with them because they all could be part of a team.
01:14:40
Case
Like Makari could be a messenger or also a tech person, but like I said, like, more focused on the speed part of things. I don't know, it's just like there needs to be some direction that they all kind of thought they were heading in for them to go awry if they're going to like deviate from each other, you know, like split up and go off into the world and feel like they've lost their purpose. Like, what was their purpose to begin with, really?
01:15:01
CeeJay
I feel like movies in the Marvel Cinematic Universe are always sort of missing some point or have something that I'm just like, oh, we could have done a little bit more with that. We could have put a little bit more effort into this. We could have. And this movie is, like I said, very ambitious. But even the movies that don't have as much going on always leave me kind of wanting something. And I think, and I blame that solely on the fact that these movies have like two year turnaround times. Like they, like, yeah, from, like from wholesale conception to release, they are just sort of like put together so fast.
01:15:48
CeeJay
And I mean, I tweeted a few months ago, big movies were really good when they all took like four years to make because there was just so much more time to conceptualize these things. Just like. And nowadays, I mean, has Hollywood heard of a second draft? I mean, they are just saying, yeah, looks right, there's some words and just sending it off to production. It feels like sometimes, especially when you have such a house of cards, such a sort of like multimedia apparatus like the Marvel Cinematic Universe that is now that went from making like one movie every two years to making like, now we're at what, four movies and a number of television series every year. Like, just as an outfit, it feels at worst untenable, at best detrimental to holistic storytelling.
01:16:50
CeeJay
And you're always left with these questions of like, why was that like that? Why did they make that decision? Couldn't we have fleshed this out a little bit more? We could, but we didn't have time. And especially with this movie that is trying to be three movies. Movies in two hours.
01:17:06
Jmike
It should have been maybe two hours. It could have cut off and a whole extra hour exposition. And it might have helped this movie.
01:17:13
CeeJay
In the long run because the movie really does just stop for, like 25 minutes to be like, in the beginning.
01:17:22
Case
We thought the text crawl would make it easier. Then they have Dan Whitman just like, being like, hey, hold on, we have to stop for a second. I need to ask you all the questions. Why are all these things, like, the.
01:17:34
CeeJay
Way they are and then disappear for the rest of the movie before you come back to be like, well, I'm. I'm something of a hero myself.
01:17:42
Case
There's something special about me too. Yeah. Oh, man.
01:17:47
CeeJay
Only for it. Only for him to effectively just be like Martin Freeman in the Black Panther. Which is really funny to me because,.
01:17:55
Case
Like, Martin Freeman, at least in the Black Panther has like, does actual real stuff in that.
01:17:59
CeeJay
Well, he's Martin, not Martin Freeman in the Black Panther. He had, like, shit to do in Black Panther. Martin Freeman. He was Martin Freeman in Captain Civil War.
01:18:08
Case
There we go.
01:18:08
CeeJay
Yes. Where he's just there to be like,.
01:18:12
Jmike
Hey, hey, guys, I'll be back.
01:18:14
Case
Yeah. I think the problem with this property in general is that it feels like it should be the Central MacGuffin for a lot of stuff. Like, Fasta should have been kind of tied into the creation of Wakanda as a state. Makkari should probably had some role somewhere. I'm not sure Sprite should have inspired people's stories somewhere. The fact that they're set in Babylon and then there's kind of a deviation point feels like that they should have been behind this. And. And the fact that, like, one of them is Gilgamesh should feel like it's like, oh, this is the Tower of Babel moment and there's like a big splintering of human civilization. It goes off and it spreads and like that. They should have then played parts throughout all these different little spots.
01:18:49
Jmike
That's what I thought they were going to do. And that's why I thought they were time jumping around history for, like, certain, like, significant points to say, like, hey, they were behind this, or, hey, they're behind this, or this is why that happened. And no, they're just kind of like, meh. We're just around. We're not really doing anything I'd like because. Because, like, especially at the way they. When they all split and they had the big argument about everything where. What was his name? The telepath guy? What's his name?
01:19:16
Case
Druig.
01:19:16
Jmike
Druig, yeah. He was like the whole big confrontation with him and. And Icarus, I thought they had somehow them arguing has started. The whole Conquistador is coming and killing Everything. I was like, oh, they're just kind of in the background again.
01:19:32
Case
Yeah, they're just in a room watching a massacre occurring. But they're in relative peace there now. I get, like, Drake's probably protecting them in some regard, or someone is doing it. Sprites casting an illusion or whatever. But, yeah, they're just kind of passively observing. Yeah. It feels like they should have been the catalyst for so many things behind the scenes. And maybe, like, the MCU is probably too established to have them in the. What is it? The Jack Black episode of Community kind of role where it's like, no, I've literally been in every scene, just off camera. Camera every time kind of thing going on. But, like, they could have had them, like, leave the world and then, like, come back at the start of this movie having, like, left, like, right before Captain America, the First Avenger or something like that.
01:20:12
Case
Or left, as in the wake of the atom bomb. Like, that could have also been a spot where, like, no humanity's done and, like, they all collectively left. But the fact that it's a gang getting back together thing still keeps this, like, vibe of, like, there's so much that was happening and y' all were literally doing nothing. Like, it's not like you had other things that you were doing and were occupied in a Captain Marvel kind of scenario. It's like, literally, you're just there and you have so much power and the shit's so bad, and you didn't participate in any of it. And why.
01:20:41
Jmike
It's not like they had to pull a Wonder Woman and get involved in major conflicts. They could have helped with, like, could have said they were behind our. What's his name? I forgot their names. Technopath. He could have behind the scientific research for, like, some kind of miracle drug or finding. Figure out how to cure a disease or something. He could have been behind that. Or Cersei could have been behind some kind of agricultural phenomenon. They could have been, like, chipping in throughout history, doing certain things and still not have to get involved with, like, war. They were just. They were just like. Like, the dad, like, pulls out his newspaper and sees his kids fighting. It's like, whatever.
01:21:25
CeeJay
Yeah, Deforestation on Cersei's watch is kind of whack.
01:21:28
Jmike
Yeah. Like, they were just there around.
01:21:31
CeeJay
That's some obstacles, not wanting to be bothered.
01:21:37
Jmike
They weren't actively trying to help or make anything better. They were just around.
01:21:42
CeeJay
My thesis goes back to Chloe Zhao, not really understanding the assignment. And it goes back to not just her, but sort of like, everyone involved not really understanding the assignment. I think we're in this weird moment where since, like, 30 years ago, we sort of all decided that, like, that this was, like, going to be the most interesting thing that anybody does. And we've gotten. There's, like, these two camps. These camps that see, like, superheroes and genre stuff is kind of, like kid stuff or whatever. And there's one. One camp and then there's another camp that sees it as, like, sort of, like, the most important thing. And then you have, like, this sort of, like, coming together of, like, two different sides of it.
01:22:35
CeeJay
Chloe Zhao and the sort of, like, sort of art house cinema side, and Kevin Feige on the sort of corporate cinema side, coming, thinking that it was going to be the easiest thing in the world to not only mesh their styles of filmmaking and what they want out of the types of movies that they watch, but also to do so on a very hard to sell concept. And I think that it was not only heavily ambitious on Chloe Zhao's part, because I think there's some part of the mind of a filmmaker like Chloe Zhao, or, and by extension, folks who, like, sort of maybe look down on superhero films or whatever that think that they're very easy to do, and it's a very easy sort of storytelling cross to bear.
01:23:33
CeeJay
And I think that there's some part of the sort of more corporate wing of filmmaking and people who really enjoy that stuff, who thinks that there is a sort of algorithmic mathematical formula to creating compelling art house cinema. And Kevin Feige was just like, oh, yeah, I can get that crowd. That's gonna be easy. And Chloe Zhao came in and said, I can do this thing. It's probably easy compared to the type of more sort of complex interior storytelling that I try to do on my own. And it all sort of crashed into this trifle, you know, like the British dish trifle. This, like, trifle of interesting ideas and compelling visuals that do not make up a great sum of pretty decent parts. So I think that we're sort of like.
01:24:38
CeeJay
It's an interesting artifact in the sort of, like, culture war that's going on between sort of, like, blockbuster genre films and the rest of movies. And I'm glad we have it just as an artifact to that.
01:24:53
Case
Yeah, well, and again, like, I love the Eternals as a property. Like, I think that's so cool. And I. I love some entire, you know, the visuals of this. I think we. We got a great representation from Gilgamesh, who is often called the Forgotten One. And I Liked how his, like, dying words were Remember me, like, which was kind of just a fun beat there. I love that we got all these characters here, but it is such, like, a. A. A labyrinthian structure to explain Marvel cosmology. And this movie did not do anything to sort of assist us in that. That spectrum, especially by lying and then pulling out the rug from under us.
01:25:31
CeeJay
Yeah, yeah.
01:25:33
Case
It's. Again, you're right. It's. It's just. It's not better than the sum. It's not even really equal to the sum of its parts, but, like, there's a lot of nice parts.
01:25:41
Jmike
That's fair. That's a fair assessment.
01:25:44
CeeJay
And sometimes, you know, that's all you can ask for. Doing my show below freezing made me so much nicer to make movies. I. I'm a big proponent of, like, every movie is a miracle. Making them is hard. I don't, like, try and take them apart, but, like, I also understand and can respect the power of ideas and the power of artistic ambition. And there's a lot of it going on here. And one hopes that when comes. When the time comes to take another chance like this, because when big studio stuff that's this weird flops, it's always scary because you're like, is anybody gonna try and take this chance again? And I hope that they do. I.
01:26:38
CeeJay
For the sake of, you know, female directors who want to be in the blockbuster space, for the sake of, you know, just getting more varied and global faces on. On screen in these big action spectaculars, I hope that all of that ends up inspiring people to do more of it than less of it. Because folks like us, we remember a time where there was not this plot. There was not this platonic ideal of, like, nerdy mainstream stuff. And stuff just had to be bad for a very long time before it got good. And I think that we're spoiled with stuff that is, like, consistently a 7.5. It's the thing with, like, Marvel, the Marvel movies versus the DC movies. Marvel movies are going to range from, like, us, like, a six to, like, a light eight.
01:27:35
CeeJay
And they can be really fun and really great. But you have DC movies, and they can. They will either be a two or,.
01:27:42
Jmike
Being generous, they will.
01:27:44
CeeJay
They will either be a 2 or an 11. And there is no in between usually. So I hope that we just keep throwing spaghetti like this at the wall, because I take a thousand more eternals over no Way Home.
01:27:59
Jmike
Well, I have a question now. I have a question now. Would this have been better served as a Disney original?
01:28:09
Case
Oh, yeah, having space to breathe. Yeah, 100%.
01:28:13
Jmike
Because I feel like we're getting to the point where they're trying to be so bombastic and like, here's the next part of the phase of our movies and everything. But they also have, like, Disney plus, which does huge service to, like, more intimate stories. And like, this might have been better served for like, a short run miniseries like they did like, all last summer.
01:28:37
CeeJay
And I'm a big. I'm a. I'm a fan of most of the Disney series. I like them quite a bit. And I think that would have been a great idea. It wouldn't have happened with this cast, but it would have been a great idea.
01:28:54
Case
No, no, Totally would not have happened with this cast. This movie tried to cram a lot in to get all these cool set pieces and a lot of these ideas and they could have breathed if it was a show and, like, seen a lot of people making that basic point. And I think that holds true. Like, a little bit more space would have been great. Like, it's just such a big thing.
01:29:16
CeeJay
But also just this thing. Everything doesn't need to be a TV show. I. But I. But this thing in particular, like, people would just be like, oh, man, I wish that this was a TV show. This is TV show. And I'm not saying this is you. I just hear this a lot. I believe, I agree that this would have been better as a TV show, but I do not think that is a rule across the board. Movies are important.
01:29:42
Case
Well, because, like, compare this with, like in Game, for example, Endgame's a long movie, but it's. It shouldn't have been a TV show. It was the. It was the right length for. Or the right amount of stuff for the amount of bouncing around and like, celebration of the MCU that it did with a big, like, third act for the sake of all the fans sense, like, longer would not have benefited that in any way. Or more Broken up would not have benefited that in any way. Like, when we watched the Snyder cut for the Justice League, one of the weird points about it was it's like, oh, well, it's. It couldn't be a TV show. It still had to be a movie in terms of its structure. Like, any longer would have felt like both, like, kind of broken.
01:30:17
Case
And also the peaks and valleys wouldn't have really fit a TV show structure. But, like, this movie easily could have had some of those points. Like, big flashbacks could have been like your. Like, if you needed a big climax to your individual episode, you could have that be a flashback or a modern day thing. So you have like some flexibility there. You know, you can play with the pacing in that in a way that this movie kind of felt like some abrupt shifts when it occurred. Like when like Kingo is introduced, all of a sudden it becomes much more light hearted, much more of a comedy. Like there's a big shift there. And that if that was an episode or at least like the episode introducing him, like that would have felt appropriate. But as it is here, it feels a little weird.
01:30:55
Case
Like this is a movie I think should have been a show. But there's plenty of movies that were supposed to be movies and possibly some of the shows that probably should have just been a movie. Oh, looking at you. Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
01:31:07
CeeJay
And not just with Marvel stuff. I think just generally across the board, like half of the limited series and stuff that we see nowadays 10 years ago would have been movies and would have been fun. I tell people all the time I would watch Euphoria if it was one movie. But like, but by the way, just all this clips and stuff. I watch Euphoria via clips on Twitter and I'm just like, what is going on? What is going on the show? There's one came out where all these people were standing in the bathroom talking to each other. There was this one point where like people like expressed concern and I was just like, are all the people on Euphoria friends? And my friends would like, just watch the show. And I was like, I won't.
01:31:47
Case
But the.
01:31:52
CeeJay
No, but yeah, I agree that it would have been better as a Disney plus series, but I also agree that Falcon and Winter Soldier would have made a better movie and so would have Loki.
01:32:04
Jmike
Really.
01:32:05
CeeJay
But to be completely honest with you, I just didn't like Loki. So.
01:32:10
Jmike
Cash, don't let the Internet hear you.
01:32:15
Case
Oh, no one's watching this. They can hear me.
01:32:16
CeeJay
Audio one too. I did not like that show. But I loved Hawkeye. Hawkeye was great.
01:32:22
Case
And Hawkeye was like good pacing on that one.
01:32:23
CeeJay
Yeah. And it felt like a TV show. It was like instead of just a six hour movie. I have a problem with shows. They're just like, oh, we're a 13 hour movie. I wouldn't watch a 13 hour movie. I haven't seen SOT and Tongo. I'm not gonna.
01:32:40
Jmike
So.
01:32:42
Case
Yeah. So long story short, this movie had a lot of ambition. Like, can't. Can't really badmouth that. A lot of good visuals, a lot of good moments throughout it, but it doesn't really add up to a thing that changes anything. It doesn't really like revolutionize any perspective on stuff. Except for maybe like, maybe the way that they've depicted Makari for the fight scene there. Like, that's going to be a pretty high bar in terms of a super speed fight going forward. But aside from that, like, I didn't feel like this really raised that many. Any expectations for future projects. Like it was overall, I'd say, like, based on your statement of the Marvel range, I'd give it like a 6.5, maybe a low seven, I don't know.
01:33:23
CeeJay
But do more shit like this, eventually one of them is going to be good.
01:33:28
Case
Yeah, yeah. With like a little bit more. I mean, we know that they can do this level of weird and be good. Like the Guardians of the Galaxy movies are there. Thor, Ragnarok is there, like where we're starting to get into that weird level there. I don't know. I feel like they could still. But also it helps to know what you're trying to like if you're doing a big world building movie. Like, you kind of need to know what the world you're building is. And I don't feel like this movie had like a solid through line of like, all right, so what is the Marvel cosmology? Which isn't necessary in every project, but it is necessary in this particular one. And that was kind of a bummer for me. But like, I liked it.
01:34:03
Case
But it's also one where I'm definitely like, if you like Marvel movies or if you like all this stuff, like, yeah, it doesn't hurt to check it out, but it's not the first one I'm going to recommend to anyone.
01:34:11
Jmike
That is fair. That is very fair. It's a very fair assessment.
01:34:14
Case
Yeah, so that's where we're at. Cj, you referenced that you have a much softer spot for movies by virtue of a podcast that you host. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and then talk about other stuff you've got going on?
01:34:27
Jmike
Sure.
01:34:28
CeeJay
I am one half of the co hosts of Below Freezing with CJ and Micah. We've been on hiatus for a little while and we're still on hiatus, but we will be coming back for a eight episode final mini season and where we're gonna just be sort of saying goodbye and putting the show to rest. We've had a lot of fun doing it, but we wanted to move on and do other things. But. But more information will be on, like my Twitter and on the below freezing Twitter and stuff when that happens. In the meantime, I'm writing again. I have a newsletter called Monoplex. You can find it@monoplex.substack.com the last post was my top 10 favorite films of last year, and Warner Brothers has quite the presence on it.
01:35:16
CeeJay
My number 10 being malignant, my number one being dune, and lots of various and sundry like musicals and dramas mixed in. But the next post will be about luck and Moonstruck, the Cher film Moonstruck, which should be out by the end of next week. I'm not entirely sure where this comes out, but yeah, I'm doing a lot of research on it and writing it right now and. And I just really love talking about movies, all kinds of movies, and I appreciate you guys for letting me come on and talk about this one because it's one that I found very interesting.
01:35:55
Case
Well, absolutely. Like when you suggested, I was like, yeah, we totally wanted to do it and it just sort of didn't fit with. We were doing a bunch of Legion of Superheroes to Faso when this or when the movie came out and it felt weird to like take a break in the middle of it all because were like doing Legion of Superhero stuff. Not that this is that alien of a series to that, like you could certainly fit those. It's all big space stuff. But yeah, it just wasn't. It worked out that the Disney plus one came out a bit later and that we can kind of watch it at our leisure and so forth. But yeah, I'm glad that were able to chat with you about that.
01:36:28
Case
There's this part of me, because this movie is where it is, that I keep wanting it to be this show to be another pass right now. So I could be talking about how I would fix this movie because I have so many thoughts and maybe they're not ironed out completely right now because I didn't go to into that level of depth, but like, I want it to be. So yeah. C.J. Thank you again for coming on. J. Mike, if people want to find you, where can they find you?
01:36:52
Jmike
They can find me on Twitter mike101. I post funny jokes and sometimes memes and I try to reply as much as I can to Case and all his crazy stories.
01:37:05
Case
It does get a little bit weird on MySpace. Speaking of that, you can find the things that I do on Twitter Aase Aiken. You can find the show at Men of Steel Pod, because again, I'm a dum. And someone finally pointed out that you can change the username, not just the display name on a Twitter account. I didn't realize I'm stupid. You know what? No, I'm going to. I'm just going to claim it. I'm old. I'm 37. I'm an old man. I don't understand the Internet. But those glimmers of times where I do kind of pretend to understand the Internet creates things like our website, certainpov.com, where you can find more episodes of this show and tons of other great podcasts. You can also find a link to our Discord server.
01:37:48
Case
We are not doing this call on Discord right now, but we often do, and for public calls and so forth. So you can do. You can come join us for either chats or for meme sharing or whatever. Come interact with us. We're very nice. We don't bite. You can find out sneak peeks about upcoming episodes. Tons of great stuff there. You can also come interact with the hosts of tons of the other shows at the network. You can find people like, gonna give a shout out to Books that Burn right now. They're a really cool book club podcast where they talk about, well, trauma for the characters in the books and how the author deals with them. But they're one of the new shows on the network. They do a great job. They've had some really cool interviews recently. I'm a really big fan.
01:38:29
Case
It's very cool. Robin and Nicole are awesome additions. So go check out Books that Burn. It's great. And check out all the other great shows@ certainpov.com. We'll be back in two weeks talking about a more straightforward Superman thing. And by that, I mean Superman for All Seasons. So come join us for that.
01:38:45
CeeJay
Oh, I love Superman for All Seasons.
01:38:48
Jmike
It's so good.
01:38:48
CeeJay
I have a signed copy of it.
01:38:50
Jmike
Really?
01:38:50
Case
Oh, wait, signed by who?
01:38:52
CeeJay
Tim Sale.
01:38:52
Case
Tim Sale. Nice. Yeah, that was a lot of fun behind the curtains. We've already recorded that episode, and that is with JD And Angela from the Fables and Reflections podcast, so. So come check that one out. That was a really good conversation. I can't wait for that to come out in two weeks. But until then, stay super man.
01:39:14
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm, our logo is by Chris Batista, episode art is by Case Aiken, and our theme is by Jeff Moon.
01:39:39
Case
Are you tired of watching your beloved characters being tortured by careless authors?
01:39:43
CeeJay
Are you sick of feeling like they could have swapped out all of the painful action and the plot would remain untouched. Subscribe to Books that the Fortnightly Book Review podcast focusing on fictional depictions of trauma. We assume that the characters reactions are.
01:39:56
Case
Reasonable and focus on how badly or well they were served by their authors.
01:40:01
CeeJay
Join us for our minor Character spotlights, main character discussions, and favorite non traumatic things in the dark books we love. Find us on Spotify, itunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:40:12
Case
CPOV certainpov.com.