Episode 86 - Superman: Speeding Bullets with Zack Magee
As part of the #DarkKnightFortnight we’re talking about “the one where Superman’s Batman”, you know the one! Yeah! That one! Speeding Bullets, by J. M. DeMatteis and Eduardo Barreto. To have that conversation, we’re joined by Zack Magee from the S.H.U. Podcast.
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Time Codes
Overview of Superman Speeding Bullets (02:52)
Character Development Insights (05:30)
Narrative Structure Critique (08:15)
Future Podcast Plans (12:30)
Transcription
00:00
Jmike
You imagine you gotta like swat a bat and he turns around then blast you with heat vision. Moving out of this house. I'm out of it.
00:08
Case
Earth was nice while it lasted. Bats have it now.
00:11
Zach
We're done.
00:12
Jmike
We're good.
00:13
Case
I'm gonna go. I was about to go find a cave, but the bats will find you in a ca. Hey everyone and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Aiken and as always, I'm joined by my co host, J. Mike Falson.
00:47
Jmike
Welcome back, everybody. Glad to have you.
00:50
Case
We are so happy to be doing this episode. It is part of our Dark Knight Fortnite Batman marathon that we are doing in relation to the Batman coming out. So today we are. I mean, this is still a Superman show, so you won't be surprised at the episode that we're doing today. We are Talking about the 90s Elseworlds book, Superman Speeding Bullets, aka the one where he's Batman. And to have that conversation, we are joined by one of my co stars on the SHU podcast. We've got Zach in the house. Hello.
01:22
Zach
I'm still not entirely sure how I ended up here.
01:26
Case
That's fair. So listeners may know that we have had June and Alex frequently on the show from the SHU podcast and they are the game mustards running the mixed universe of all that. But I wanted to reach out and see which of the other people on my superhero podcast or superhero universe podcast would want to come on and talk about a superhero on my Superman show. Super. Super. So I put out a call and Zach, you piped in and I was like, yeah, fuck. We haven't actually directly spoken because we're on different shows. We haven't had our crossover yet.
01:56
Zach
I. I looked at the picture of the COVID and I thought it looked cool. I think that's about.
02:04
Case
Is a very cool cover. So why don't we just start talking about that? Because, man, this book is such a cool premise. I think that more than anything else, the idea of just like, oh yeah, Superman, but he's Batman sounds so cool.
02:17
Jmike
Well, I mean, we've spoil anything. Like, over the past couple of months, he's been like, he's been on Irish Farmer, he's been Russian, and now he's Batman. Yeah, we've had a huge variety of Superman so far.
02:34
Case
So I'm a giant nerd. I've been a nerd forever. I've been a huge comic book nerd. In fact, there's a home video of me trying to explain the premise of this comic To a friend of mine who is clearly not paying attention. I was like 13 for that one. So the fact that I'm 37 right now, so 24 years of kind of thinking about this book sells the premise on this one. And I'm a giant nerd. J Mike, I subject you to my nerdom and you are nice enough to put up with me for.
03:02
Jmike
Well, I learned lots of stuff. It's so cool. So, you know, I have fun.
03:07
Case
But before we got into this, Zach, you revealed that you're not as big of a comic book nerd.
03:13
Jmike
Oh my God.
03:14
Zach
I am a comic movie nerd. I have not read until this month. I had not read like a comic book in maybe three years or so,.
03:22
Case
Which this I'm very excited about. Because I think that this is a really big, like surface comic. I think there it's designed to be innately cool for someone who doesn't really like, know that much to like come in for. So, like, while I was deeply, deeply invested in this all, I'm really curious how you. How it came off to the two of you, particularly you, Zach, since you're not as big of a comic book person. You're an MCU person. Like, and so I'm just like, kind of intrigued about this one because I think that the premise is really cool. I think that the story honestly feels like a movie.
03:57
Zach
Yeah, it would work really good as a one shot movie.
03:59
Case
Yeah. I feel like this was written to be animated movie, but it was before DC was doing that.
04:04
Zach
Dang. I want to see this movie, actually.
04:05
Case
Yeah. Kind of like, can you imagine like a D verse, like a Bruce Timm style Batman, but it's Superman. And like, we've got the design for the costume that's going on here. So here's the thing. It's not. The premise for the book is that Superman's rocket crash lands at Wayne Manor and he's raised as Bruce Wayne. And so when the thing happens to the Waynes that they do the thing, he is Bruce Wayne in that situation and he is the one who loses his parents and he is the one who goes on to become Batman. And I think that premise sounds like really fucking cool because you're like, oh man, can you imagine all the training of Batman and so forth combined with the Superman powers? Like, that's so awesome. And they go a little different.
04:42
Case
This is more of like an amalgam, like a spider boy or a super soldier or like all like that whole run where it's like we're going to take the two properties, fuse them together in a way that is just one coherent thing. Like, the big twist of this book is that in it, Lex Luthor is the Joker, and it. I. They. They actually fit the two characters together pretty well.
05:03
Jmike
It worked out pretty good.
05:04
Case
But it means that it's not like a Superman with all of Batman's strengths plus the Superman powers. It's. It's its own thing. It is this, like, weird fusion of the two characters.
05:13
Jmike
Yeah. Because his parents, they kind of fused both Martha's and Thomas and Jonathan together, where, like, Tom or Thomas taught him more of, like, the science, the detective skills, and Martha was more of the.
05:26
Zach
The heart.
05:26
Jmike
Loving heart. Yeah, the heart person. So when they died, he just became like Batman from Dark Knight Rises.
05:34
Zach
Did appreciate that. Didn't he immolate the. The gunman with this?
05:39
Case
Yeah. Yes, he did.
05:40
Jmike
He torched that guy.
05:41
Case
No, he burned his face away with his heat vision. Did he.
05:44
Zach
Did he kill the guy or did.
05:45
Case
He just destroy they.
05:47
Zach
Dead.
05:47
Case
Okay.
05:48
Jmike
Yeah, he's dead. Dead.
05:50
Case
Yeah. Yeah. This is a. This is a very dark book from the standpoint of, like, Batman is brutal in this. Like, they make a big point about that one. Yeah.
05:59
Zach
Batman with super strength equals bad.
06:02
Case
Yeah.
06:05
Jmike
Batman plus super strength with no restraints.
06:07
Zach
Oh, and pulls everybody down. Plus laser eyes. Don't forget laser eyes.
06:11
Jmike
Yeah.
06:11
Case
Yeah. So the thing that I found interesting about it in, from a standpoint of, like, how you're going to structure this character is that it is actually a very different conversation about the nature of Batman's crusade. So rather than being like, okay, I was a boy, I couldn't stop my parents. I really don't want this to happen to anyone again. Superman could, like. And in fact, the. The story becomes more about how that grief is eating him alive. And I think that's a really cool kind of slant on it, but it does feel like the slant of someone who, from a meta perspective, is a Superman fan. Like, at the end of it's like, well, he had to move through all that grief that, you know, like, he limited himself, and now he can be the true great hero, Superman.
06:52
Zach
It almost seemed to me like he didn't realize that he burned the guy alive. I think there was a moment in it where he remembered that he could have saved his parents.
07:00
Case
Yeah. Because he doesn't go off and act as, like, he doesn't do the training montage. There's, like, no Batman Begins sequence in here. It's just one day after, like, living this, like, cloistered. Life of repressed grief, where. And, like. Like, his neuroses is collecting newspaper clippings of violent crimes rather than, like, training to be Batman. And then one day, like, someone breaks into his house, and he's like. Remembers that he has superpowers, and he's like, oh, I could have done stuff before. Why didn't I do stuff before? And so all that grief and rage and whatnot is combined with the. Where he had the potential to do something and failed to act.
07:34
Zach
I think the. The gunmen in that had gone to Robbie's house were. Had actually shot him. Like, the gunman had actually shot him after his parents had gotten shot and he immolated them. And he goes kind of the same thing after the guys robbing him that try and shoot him. He ends up burning them too.
07:54
Case
Yeah.
07:54
Zach
I think it's just more like he got his memory kind of triggered in some kind of way.
08:00
Jmike
Yeah. Because he starts. He starts screaming, like, the bullets, the bullets.
08:03
Zach
Oh, yeah.
08:04
Jmike
He freaks out. And Alfred's like, dear Master Wayne.
08:09
Case
Right? Because they. They note that he was left catatonic when his parents were killed. And even though he did, like, fire off a heat beam, like, after that, he was just sort of, like, staring off into the distance, saying, the bullets. And so he exists in this world where he doesn't really remember the events until this unlocks all those memories. And that's like. So he's never training to be Batman. He just discovers his powers and, like, remembers that night and everything and decides, like, okay, well, I. I'm in a weird manner that is surrounded by bats at every given moment. Like, they feel like my brothers and sisters because, like them, I can hear everything. And like them, I can fly.
08:46
Jmike
Oh, God. And now I'm Batman.
08:49
Zach
Hearing this. Talk about out loud. Comics are weird.
08:52
Case
They're so weird. They're so weird. But I will say, from the standpoint of, like, deciding to call yourself Batman, this Bruce Wayne has a better claim to it. He's like, I can fly too. I also can hear everything. That's really cool. The heat vision. Pretty weird. Not any bats with heat vision.
09:09
Jmike
At least I hope not.
09:10
Case
I know, right?
09:11
Zach
Terrifying.
09:14
Case
It's bad enough that they have sonar and echolocation.
09:17
Jmike
You imagine you gonna, like, swat a bat, and he turns around and blast you with heat vision, moving out of his house. I'm out of it.
09:26
Case
Earth was nice while it lasted. Bats have it now.
09:28
Zach
We're done.
09:31
Jmike
We're good.
09:31
Case
I'm gonna go. I was about to go Find a cave. But the bats will find you in a cave. Elon was right. We have to go to Mars. Bats have heat vision. We're done.
09:43
Zach
One of the big things I remember, I like this super or not Superman outfit, the Batman outfit. I liked a lot more how it covered his face entirely. It's so much more intimidating.
09:52
Case
Yeah, I really like this look. Like, it's. It's basically the Batman suit that we all know, but with, like, a couple touches. Like, there's like, an extra kind of element of what looks like padding or, like, armor to it, which is less necessary on this Batman than others. But, like, looks good.
10:09
Zach
This Batman has 16 abs, not just eight.
10:12
Case
Yeah, he's Kryptonian. Everything's doubled.
10:17
Jmike
Also like that. He has, like, the spawn cape, too, where it's super long.
10:21
Case
Yeah, it's a big cape.
10:22
Zach
A real big cape.
10:23
Jmike
Yeah.
10:24
Case
And then the bat symbol is the. Is the pentagon shape for Superman, which. I like that it's a fusion. I mean, again, this is. This is an amalgam. In a lot of ways. The. The belt feels more like the Superman belt, even though it's actually, like, it's still segmented, like a utility belt. And the angling on it is actually, I guess, closer to, like, the Earth to Robin outfit. I don't think that was intentional. I'm just being a nerd and pointing out, like, it has this, like, V design to it that doesn't really look like Superman or Batman's, but somehow it, like, works as a fused element between them.
10:53
Zach
You know, you pointed out all this stuff, and then I had to go back. Like, is it really? I'm like, oh, my God, it is. I never noticed that the symbol was a mixture of the two.
11:02
Case
Yeah.
11:03
Zach
I don't pay attention.
11:05
Case
And then he's got the full mask part. Like, the. Like, it completely covers his face, and they've got whites for his eyes. But in my head, I'm like, he doesn't need those. He can. Like, they keep talking about how he's X ray vision. He can see through everything. Like, it could just be a solid mask. And how freaky would that be?
11:20
Zach
That'd be terrifying. It's so much scarier when you don't know where they're looking. I don't know why.
11:29
Case
Yeah, so it's a really cool design. And, yeah, as we alluded to, when he takes on the mantle of Batman, man, he is a violent motherfucker.
11:39
Jmike
Oh, yeah. I don't think violence a word for it. Like, Batman already, like, runs around and Beats up homeless people. He took like a whole new level in this book.
11:48
Zach
I think one of the. The little pages, they were talking about how you could hear bone shattering with every hit or something.
11:55
Case
Yeah.
11:55
Zach
Which.
11:55
Jmike
That was Lois. Yeah. She was like. She could smell the flesh burning and she could hear the bone snapping when he punished people.
12:02
Zach
I'm mad at Lois. Lois should have run. That's a red flag.
12:10
Case
We. We are introduced to the classic reason that you would have a Lex Luthor match up against a Bruce Wayne situation, which is that LexCorp tries to buy Wayne Tech or Wayne Enterprises or whatever, and Bruce Wayne emerges. And it all feels very Batman Begins. About seven years before Batman Begins.
12:28
Zach
Yeah.
12:29
Jmike
Yeah. Somebody got the idea from. Yeah. He comes in and takes over. Well, stops the merger. Also, didn't. I didn't realize that it was Lois narrating until, like, she showed up. Yeah, well, I thought it was Alfred.
12:42
Case
Nor should you necessarily. I mean, you just know it's a character who knows them. And then here's a way that I thought it was a really good way of combining the characters. Bruce Wayne owns the Gotham Gazette and basically hires the whole Daily Planet staff. And the in universe explanation for why he can do that is that the Daily Planet had been bought by Lex Luthor because Superman wasn't there to stop him having his ascendancy in Metropolis. And so he's able to just like, buy up anyone who says bad words about him. So this bald billionaire newspaper owner, like a Jeffrey Bezos.
13:15
Jmike
I mean, really. Bezos before Bezos.
13:18
Zach
I want to see Jeff Bezos dress up as the Joker.
13:21
Jmike
Now, he might have.
13:23
Zach
That's essentially what this Lex Luthor is. Is Jeff Bezos as the Joker?
13:28
Case
Oh, absolutely. Have you seen the footage of, like, Bezos testing out those, like, mechanical arms that match his movements? I'm like, you let this go out on social media. Like, are you just being like. I am full on Lex Luthor. Guys come at me.
13:42
Zach
My brain went to Doc Ock. And that's. That's scary too. He's going to have four of them eventually.
13:48
Case
But here's a fun moment in terms of, like, having Bruce Wayne be a fit this like, Superman kind of role, but also having an explanation for the things that Bruce Wayne is actually good for. So he. He buys the Gotham Gazette or he already owned it. I'm not quite sure which. Either way, he takes an active role in trying to shape a newsp that can, like, seek out the corruption in the city and do all the things that would have been really nice to have Happen in Gotham City. Notoriously corrupt city of. Of scum, where every politician's paid off. Like, hey, that's. That's a cool idea. I like that.
14:20
Jmike
But then, like, as soon as Lotus shows up, he kind of flips the script and turns back into Clark, where he's, like, super clumsy and super goofy. And I was like, oh, there it is.
14:31
Case
Well, I think that's. That is Kal El's.
14:34
Jmike
Yeah.
14:35
Case
Take on being like, how do I flirt? She's not very good at it.
14:39
Jmike
He immediately falls over, and she's like, wow. So clumsy. But it turns out she's just like it, too.
14:46
Case
Remember, in this continuity, Jor El and Lara were matched up by computer. It was through a dating app. Maybe the house of El is. Just has no game. But, yeah, so we get Perry. We get all that. But here's the thing. I, like, keep in mind that this is the 90s. The consolidation of media hadn't gone to the same degree that it has now. Like, we're making the Jeff Bezos comparison. So this past week, I had seen a lot of people having a lot of the. The usual. So yet another Twitter user had the statement of Batman would do a lot more for the world with his wealth than with just beating up people. And immediately all the Batman stands. But, like, surprisingly more just like comics fans in general jumped on the whole, this is a try a tired take.
15:31
Case
Like, like, this is so lazy, yada, yada. And it felt just as toxic as the standpoint of, like, trying to make fun of Batman.
15:37
Jmike
And.
15:37
Case
And I was getting really frustrated by it because people who are usually, like, comics should be fun and inclusive were also, like, coming off as very gatekeepy. And I found that, like, frustrating. So I wrote this whole thing about how, like, one of the problems of Batman is that, like, wealth as we understand it today has scaled in a weird way. So, like, when Batman first came out, he was the son of a doctor. He had a lot of money, so that he didn't have to work, but it was. And he could afford whatever he wanted. But it wasn't that he was like, this, like, billionaire trillionaire, you know, like, our concept of these. Of this, like, kleptocratic, like, ruling aristocracy that exists now. And it's escalated over time because, like, he has to constantly be rich. But a millionaire is no longer rich.
16:17
Case
And so now we have to have the billionaires and, like, the. The Neo robber barons of this era. He has to be comparable to. And that's where it starts to feel like, oh, but you can't have that much wealth and be a good person in the 90s and more. I'm thinking, like, look, I. These are not good people because they're still all shitty ones. But, like, a Hearst type figure or someone who's like, trying to, like, put out, like, the news, like, feels like a good use of your, like, millions of dollars, where you're like, I'm going to really try to, like, clean up Gotham City by, like, revealing the truth. Feels like a positive use of wealth in a city that is mostly about corruption, if that makes sense.
16:54
Jmike
I don't know.
16:54
Case
Like, it's always the problem of, like, well, he is so rich. Like, he could solve so many problems. But I kind of like it. I like that, like, Lois, like, responds well to, like, Clark or Clark of Bruce being the newspaper owner. Like, he's, like, filling in almost like the. The Earth to Superman role where he's the editor in chief of the Daily Planet. You know, like. Like that sort of, like, voice trying to be like, no, we have to get to the truth. We have to do all this, as opposed to the man on the ground who's actually getting the news. He's the one trying to, like, put people out there to do it. And that feels like a good organizing principle of justice. And that is not usually a thing that Batman is doing in his day life.
17:32
Jmike
Sleep during your day.
17:34
Case
Well, but this one doesn't have to, so that's a good part.
17:36
Jmike
He says it, like, a bunch. Like, he's like, yeah, I don't really sleep that much. I do most of my work at nighttime. And she's like, yeah, cool, whatever. And she keeps on going.
17:43
Case
Right.
17:44
Zach
I can't escape the feeling that this comic would have been just a little bit better if it had, like, 10 more pages.
17:49
Case
Yeah, it feels just a little too short.
17:51
Zach
It feels like they rushed the ending to where it doesn't necessarily make a ton of sense. Because I can't help but feel like there's really no reason that I can see why Lois and Superman in this. Or, well, Bruce, that's gonna get annoying. There's really no reason why Lois and Bruce should really like each other. It's just like, oh, it feels very tropey that he seems to stop on this downward spiral of, you know, not having a real regard for human life where he's just constantly, like, really breaking people. It's just Lois seems to be like, oh, but you're better than you are, because I say you are. It felt really rushed and, like, it didn't have, like, merit. You know what I mean?
18:40
Case
Yeah. Like, we needed, like, a real conversation between her and Bruce getting into, like, why he was limiting himself because, like, her narration is kind of filling in some of the details. But, like, you know, I get why they would be attracted to each other. Like, yeah, Kal El likes Lois Lane.
18:55
Jmike
That.
18:55
Case
That's always, like. That's just his type across the multiverse.
19:00
Jmike
Yeah.
19:01
Zach
The attraction makes sense. It's just. It doesn't necessarily explain why he suddenly starts holding back. There's really no clear moment. And it might just also be kind of some of the artwork where it looks like he is brutally beating people, but supposedly he's still holding back.
19:18
Case
Yeah. I mean, like, so we get the whole thing where he freaks her out as Batman. Like, this is where she describes, like, the burning flesh, the breaking bones, the, like, oh, my God, Batman just, like, shooting people with his heat vision while he's, like. Like, hitting them really hard is a terrifying thing.
19:33
Jmike
He broke that guy in half.
19:35
Case
So she. And she, like, slaps him away, and he's like. He, like. They describe how he comes off as, like, a hurt child. And, like, the big thesis of the Batman Persona in this book. Book, I feel, is it is that childish rage as opposed to a more adult concept of power, of action. You know, they talk about how he's limiting himself by just in acting, in vengeance, as opposed to being this, like, optimistic figure that Superman is. Like, that's the contrast right there. So, like, he is surprised at that reaction. And then they. We do get the brute. I also want to say, Clark, this, Bruce, Lois, like, conversation at the Daily Planet where she talks about how Batman's not really doing good. Like, and so there is, like, a moment of him kind of learning.
20:21
Case
But, yeah, we need, like, another scene in there where he's, like, wrestling with that.
20:25
Zach
It looks. It's like they got the first act, they skipped the second act and went to the third act of that little relationship. There. They were missing a middle scene. Yeah.
20:33
Case
And I. I think part of that is that it's so reliant on the tropes of both Batman and Superman. You know, it kind of expects us to fill in the pieces.
20:41
Jmike
Yeah.
20:42
Zach
Might be harder for those of us that don't have the pieces,.
20:47
Case
But, like, I don't think they require you to know anything to understand the story. It's just like, oh, yeah, Superman's a good guy. Like, and, you know, they do a little bit of that with, like, the Waynes being presented as being such good People also. And, like, the heroic, like, things that he gravitated towards, like Sherlock holmes, like Zorro, etc. John Carter was a fine callback because John Carter is one of the inspirations for Superman's powers. So we, you know, we get this idea that he is influenced by the things that you would expect a Superman to be influenced by. But, yeah, then we get the confrontation with Luther, and it just ends with, like, Superman rolling up, or, pardon me, Batman rolling up and being like, no, I am so powerful. You literally can't do anything.
21:27
Case
Like, Luther has no chance in this confrontation. The best he can do is he can be like, all right, well, I'm gonna have, like, a whole city of mercenaries attacking everyone, which happens so fast. Yeah. And, like, reading it for this read, I was like, wait, is the. Is he just pointing out wars on the planet? Because, like, Superman kind of could hear around the planet sometimes. And, like, are we doing that kind of a thing? Being like, how can you waste your time on me, a little criminal while there's such terrible atrocities? No, it's a war in Gotham City.
21:57
Jmike
Very Batman Begins Again.
22:00
Zach
It's a war in Gotham City that Bruce deals with in about four pages.
22:05
Jmike
Right.
22:05
Case
And again, because that, like, I guess the argument is that, like, oh, yeah, well, yeah, Superman can handle that kind of. Batman isn't up to snuff for that. Superman, like, there's a reason the comic is Superman speeding bullets and not Batman speeding. So he. He decides, like, all right, I'm gonna go deal with this. And so he drops Luther to let him die. And Lois is like, no. And he's like, okay. And he goes and saves him. Fine.
22:29
Jmike
I guess I'll save him this time.
22:31
Case
And he stops everything. And there's a. There's one line. Hang on.
22:34
Zach
Takes one person saying no, and then you decide not to murder someone.
22:37
Jmike
To be fair, he just dropped him. Maybe he was just trying to scare him. Maybe from a really high point up, he's like, I wasn't gonna let him die. You know? Ha, ha.
22:49
Zach
I always remember whenever I see people, you know, in movies or comics where they just drop people off of high shelves. I'm like, you know, I've always been told that it's not the fall that kills you. It's the heart attack that you have on the way down. Luther's dead. You dropped him. He had a heart attack and he died.
23:07
Case
Oh, yeah. I mean, he definitely broke his arm.
23:08
Jmike
Oh, of course.
23:09
Zach
Oh, absolutely.
23:10
Case
Yeah. The speed necessary for all those things was not a thing that could stop.
23:15
Jmike
He didn't really drop. He kind of like, threw him down.
23:18
Case
Right.
23:20
Jmike
He was like, screw it. And he threw up most. Like, no, he's like, fine.
23:24
Zach
The Luther Joker face paint is creepy. I'm just going back there and looking at some of these panels. I like the Luther Joker that he. He does look a lot like a cue ball.
23:35
Jmike
Oh, yeah.
23:38
Case
I mean, their fusion works really well from a design standpoint because Luther looks pretty good in a suit. And this is like the era of businessman Lex. So suits make sense. And both of them typically adopt a purple and green color scheme because, like, those secondary colors are usually associated. Associated with villains or like, mixed ideals in comics.
23:57
Zach
Like the.
23:57
Case
It's the primary colors for your heroes, and then either your antiheroes or your villains adopt the secondary ones. So green, purple are like, pretty common for those kind of looks. So, like, Luther often is wearing like a purple and green armor or like a purple and green jumpsuit, and the Joker always is wearing, like, a purple suit. So that fusion works really well, visually speaking. You could really imagine like, like going back to the movie idea. Like, imagine the vain Lex Lut Superman movie where he wears a toupee and has just a. A host of selections to put on. Like, you could imagine like a bald Joker putting on like a green toupee for this one or a red toupee for this cape or like whatever kind of clown outfit he thinks, like, looks the best for his outfit.
24:41
Case
Like, I think really makes sense. Like, and I kind of want to see that. Like, the fact. The fact that they went with fat Lex is the only thing that like, kind of like, keeps it from being like an all time, like, perfect look. Because, like, imagine like a buff Lex Luthor Joker. Like, he's not as skinny as the Joker. He's got like that like, peak human kind of look. Like the, like the Clancy Brown, like.
25:03
Jmike
A limited look here. Like, I'll do.
25:06
Zach
I think if I remember the reasoning behind Lex being the Joker in here is something to do with like a lab accident.
25:12
Case
Yeah. So he has like, he had like. He owns the chemical plant that would be the Joker chemical plant in this. So rather than falling into it, they're like exploded some. There's some kind of fire or something, and he gets like, bathed in the chemicals that, like, normally the Joker would have fallen into.
25:28
Zach
Oh. And he. It drove him insane. And that's the kind of stuff. Yeah, it's kind of weird, but yeah.
25:33
Case
And like, it works as like a combo thing. Like, he has that, like, the helicopter pack, which is like such a perfect, like, super genius, but also clown kind of device. Like, you could see that for like, Toy man or something. Obviously Inspector Gadget. But it works really well for this sort of like, fused kind of nature of like, yeah, he's the, like the genius mad scientist, Lex Luthor. But everything's going to be a gag kind of design for Joker. And like, I wish I saw more like, Zach, what you're saying, this is just a little too short. Like, I want to see more of this, like, joined universe that they're conceiving of like, other super villains. More of Joker doing stuff that's actually, like, bad, as opposed to just being like, oh, yeah, I hired some goons.
26:14
Jmike
That's it.
26:15
Case
That was my master plan.
26:17
Jmike
Yeah.
26:18
Zach
One of the things that struck me as weird, I think very early on it's talking about how. I think it was kind of introducing the idea that Superman might have been who he became because of where he landed. And later on, at the end of the. The little book, they kind of use the same wording again, where there could only be one series of events that gives you Superman. And it feels kind of like a cop out, because you just showed me a second way of how you get Superman.
26:44
Case
How do you mean?
26:45
Zach
I think very early one of the first pages is talking about all the different things that could have gone wrong. Maybe he lands somewhere else and it's talking about. I think. I don't know if the words were exactly this, but there's like one series of events that gets us Superman. And then you start watching along this. This whole little journey here. And I'll be honest, because of that opening little thing where it's like there's only one series of events that gets you to Superman. I kind of thought that they were going to have Bruce kind of not go the Superman route and then maybe take a darker turn and go the other. The other way with it, where it's a good.
27:24
Zach
It kind of shows you it's a good thing that he was raised by the Kents instead of the Waynes because of the circumstances of his life. But then at the end of the book, it's kind of like a cop out is like, oh, no, we just kind of lied to you. There's other ways that you get to Superman. It's just. There's a little bit of a different journey on the way.
27:44
Case
Well, I. I think what they're doing is they're to be ironic in because it's. The whole thing is presented as an Essay by Lois Lane explaining what we find out is, this is the story of Superman and.
27:57
Zach
Okay, okay.
27:58
Case
Right. And so, like, in the opening, it's meant to be, like, a little bit of a misdirect for you. Like, it feels like it's. It's talking about how he's going to land in the Kent farm, and that's how we get Superman that way. And then at the end, it's like, oh, can you imagine if he had landed anywhere else? Like, like in a fascist dictatorship, a Kansas farm. And, like, they, like, are rattling off. None of those would allow us to get to where we are now. None of those would get. Get to Superman. Like, the. The idea is to be, like, playing with our expectations of what we know about the characters.
28:25
Zach
I guess I was just wishing that maybe they got somewhere else with it. I kind of wanted to see an evil Superman, Batman who just goes nuts.
28:34
Case
Yeah. Someone who was, like, a little bit crazier. I amazed at that opening bit that we didn't get a Martha line in there. Like, can you imagine?
28:42
Jmike
Like, please.
28:43
Case
Because they. They go out of their way to not show too much at first. Like, in the first couple panels. Yeah. Of, like, Thomas Wayne running to it, like, so you can't clearly see him. And also, like, who can just identify Thomas Wayne just by looking at him? Like, every artist is going to be different. It's not a character who has, like, very, like, clear signifiers, visually.
29:00
Jmike
Yeah.
29:00
Case
So it should be. It's all right, Martha. You should have had some line like that. Because here is the appropriate time to do the Martha reference.
29:07
Jmike
Gosh. The precursor to all the Martha.
29:09
Case
And I can't get over that. Like, they immediately jump to, like, Mr. And Mrs. Wayne. Like, no point do, like, the fun bit there. And it's a shame because that would have actually been rather fun. But, you know, we get it where. We get this line towards the end of it all where Lois is giving this sort of thesis about, like, the transformation. She says it's like a. Like a butterfly coming out of a cocoon. And she says the line for so many years, denying the wounded little boy who'd watched, traumatized and helpless, while his parents were murdered. That's who Batman was. A child in a Halloween costume playing out a lifetime of guilt and anger. And his vision was as narrow as a child's, focused one goal. Punishing the bad men who took. Who'd taken his mother and father away.
29:50
Case
And I'm like, that is such an indictment of Batman.
29:54
Zach
Yeah, I really like that. Part in the end where it's. I think it's kind of trying to make you kind of see the. The Batman was more of the cocoon that then bloomed into Superman whatever. That Mr. Egg just made me mad a little bit. The Mr. Egg made me think I was gonna get something else.
30:17
Case
Well, what I do find weird is that I don't know why you would change your name to Superman. Like, even if you're, like, being like, oh, no, Batman was me being a shitty guy. Like, I. I totally understand. Like, that's not the look I want to have. Like, like, Superman. I've said this before. It's a descriptor, not a title. Like, it's a. A Superman could do this. The Superman did this. And eventually you gain the familial nature with this character where you feel like, oh, it's my friend Superman, you know, but for, like, until you mentally remove the.
30:47
Zach
The.
30:47
Case
The. The or a is there. And so it works for Superman because he's like, the first character that way. Like, if I were going to name myself a superhero name, I wouldn't just be, like, cool guy or, like, awesome dude. Like. Like that impressive guy. Like, you feel like you have to have someone, like, call you that a few times until eventually it sticks. You don't go around being like, no, I am impressive, man.
31:18
Jmike
I am awesome.
31:19
Zach
You can't come up with your own nickname.
31:22
Case
I don't mind the costume he adopts that much. Aside from having the 90s head sock, I kind of dig the I. I'm a sucker for, like, the shoulder to chest, like, V, like, formation on the costume. Like, I. I love those. Whenever I see it in a look, I think that the two tone worked actually pretty well there. I think it actually does a pretty good job of even not having the belt or, like, the. The. The underpants and whatnot. Like, I think those. It works fine here.
31:50
Zach
Got to get our Superman without the underpants, the way it was minced.
31:56
Case
But, yeah, it's just weird because, like, why would he take the name Superman? Unless they're all like, man, fuck, we thought we had a Batman in our city. It turns out we have a Superman, and I feel like we need to have that scene.
32:10
Zach
It almost looks like his muscles get smaller the closer to Superman he gets.
32:15
Jmike
Oh, look at it.
32:15
Case
Well, again, it's a big padded suit.
32:18
Zach
It's like they start drawing him with less muscles as the comic goes on.
32:23
Case
Well, it's also. The artist is probably getting tired at that point.
32:25
Zach
Yeah, that's fair. That's Absolutely fair.
32:30
Case
Yeah.
32:30
Zach
Like, I could save a lot of time by just giving him a six pack instead of a 16 pack.
32:37
Case
I mean, you gotta remember this is, like, the era of, like, the Joel Schumacher Batman movies. So, like, probably the reference point for it is, like, that full, like, sculpted physique kind of design.
32:49
Zach
Those outfits never made sense because they almost look plastic. Almost.
32:54
Case
Yeah, they are.
32:57
Zach
I say almost. We all know it's plastic. I'm just trying to be nice.
33:01
Case
Yeah. Although, imagine, like, the Michael Keaton Batman, but with heat vision because, like, he can't turn his head, but he could just be, like, floating and just, like, rotating and firing heat at people, but not able to actually turn his head to do anything with it.
33:12
Jmike
Like a turret just floating in the air.
33:14
Case
It's like, why'd you bother wearing that suit? Yeah. So, like, I. Zach, when you and I were, like, chatting about this after you did your read, were saying that the idea is bigger than the actual execution. And I think that's sort of a fair criticism of this. Like, it's too short. The idea is really cool. But, like. Like, were saying it would be nice to have more of that kind of story. And, like, you know, they kind of are. The COVID makes you think, okay, we're gonna get all the cool stuff about Batman, which is not that he dresses like a bat and is scary, but is like, oh, he's the world's greatest detective, and he's trained in all this stuff, and we get all those things. Plus Superman.
33:52
Zach
Did they even do.
33:53
Case
That's not what they do here.
33:53
Zach
Yeah, I don't remember it really. Any detecting going on?
33:57
Jmike
Well, they mention it a bunch in the beginning. Like, his dad was trying to, like, teach him how to do that stuff, and that's why he was like, Sherlock Holmes. I want to be like him, too. Dad's like, that's a great character. And then nothing.
34:08
Zach
And then they did nothing with it.
34:11
Case
Yeah, that's the weird part there. And I, like. I do get that we are doing a different conversation about, like, the nature of. Your parents are murdered in front of you, and you had the power to stop it. How is that different? And it's a darker Batman as a result, but it is. It, like, it's a bummer that we're not, like, explore. I don't know. I don't know. It's fun and I like it. And I like JM De Matias. Like, as a writer, I think he's really good. He has. Is still doing, like, fun stuff. Like, he just finished doing, like, the. The Justice League. What is it? The, like, the Dini Verse book that was just running. Justice League Unlimited book that was running, which had this whole, like, cool multiverse thing. Like. Like, great writers still working. Was working in the 80s.
34:53
Case
He was the writer on the, like, the Ruby Spears Superman cartoon. All of the backup features, which are, like, the young Clark Kent stories. So, like, he's a writer who thinks a lot about Superman and, like, the process of growing up, because he just worked on that, like, five years before this. He's doing the cartoons that are about, like, young Superman. Like, I think he has, like, a lot of cool thoughts about what. What it would take for a person who has this infinite power to be a good person ultimately. But he does, like, the book does kind of denigrate Batman in that regard by being like, no, it's just a phase before you grow up. It's his goth phase in high school.
35:34
Zach
This version of Batman is almost what I think Superman would think of Bruce Wayne.
35:40
Case
Oh, it's just like him dreaming, being like, man, can you imagine if I was Batman? Well, obviously, I would have murdered the. The killer of my parents with my heat vision. Can't even imagine a Joker that isn't just Lex Luthor. He's just like, well, obviously, the Joker must be Lex Luthor.
35:53
Zach
Yeah. I don't understand why Lex Luthor becomes the Joker. If all that changed in this universe is that Superman is now Bruce Wayne.
36:01
Case
Yeah. Again, it's really more of an amalgam. It's really fusing the two characters rather than diverting one into the other person's timeline. Because, yeah, the question would be, like, wouldn't he just have Batman's villains? Yeah. Like, I guess is the answer, like, yeah.
36:16
Jmike
I mean, would he still. Because, like, after the first run in. I'm pretty sure they'd be in, like, a.
36:21
Zach
No, they'd be dead.
36:23
Case
Yeah. Yeah.
36:24
Zach
He immolated a number of people, and it kind of. The comic book almost seems to forget that he killed at least four or.
36:31
Jmike
Five people, at least 10 people, because the other guys, he, like, broke their necks and stuff. They're not gonna.
36:36
Zach
Yeah,.
36:38
Case
Yeah. Lots of crippled people in this.
36:40
Zach
A lot of broken people or dead people.
36:43
Case
Several dead. Some of it by way of heat vision burning away your body, which is. Ooh, that's terrible.
36:50
Zach
This is a painful way to go, too. I see that. And I'm like, oh, yeah, we're gonna get an evil Superman. Let's see it. Or evil Superman, Batman, whatever the fuck we're supposed to call him.
37:00
Case
Yeah, it's so hard. We keep wanting to say Clark. The one name he isn't. He is Superman. He is Batman. He is Kal El. He's Bruce, but he's not Clark.
37:10
Zach
He's Bruce. He's not Clark, but he is also Superman.
37:15
Case
Eventually, yeah, eventually once he grows out of his Batman face. But yeah, it's true because think about the heavy hitter Batman villains. Like if Killer Croc confronts this guy or Bane confronts this guy. Bane coming from South America, has armor resistant plates under his skin, has a super steroid in his body and has had nightmares his entire life of the b. He comes to confront the bat and break him and he punches him and breaks his hand on Batman's jaw. It's like, wait, this isn't supposed to happen. I can rip Kars apart. And he's like, I can rip cars apart when I'm with my pinky. Oh fuck.
37:54
Jmike
And then he's just done Batman breaks Bane.
37:58
Case
But it makes you think like, oh man, we could have had all kinds of fun fusions of characters. Like can you imagine like a two face that was like also like Brainiac half robot half or like Metallo I guess actually would be the perfect one there. Yeah, like a, a two faced Metallo hybrid or like a Brainiac Riddler hybrid. Like those would all be like. Actually that one works really well with that. Oh these all would be great. Like, but they don't spend any time with that. And that's why I feel like this feels like if you were writing like I said, like a screenplay for it, you know, the events are pretty similar to like the 89 Batman movies. Like it, you know, Joker shows up and we're kind of just dealing with all that.
38:36
Case
Like it feels like also like the script for a Superman movie, but it feels like the movie because it's that uni threat. Like there's only one super villain that we're dealing with. It's the part. It's also their origin story, you know, and rather than like having a montage of all the characters he like, like encountered and locked up or anything like that. Like, which would be if you really wanted to have fun with this idea. It's, it's almost too small of a story for this concept. It really is because it's just like the Joker shows up, he confronts him once and wins and that's it. There's no like, oh, I'm almost losing in this time where. Oh yeah, he. He had me outsmarted or outwitted about something or like I had to be in two places at once kind of moments.
39:18
Case
It's just like he confronts the Joker.
39:20
Zach
There's also no kryptonite at all. Which you think that they would do something with that to like even the playing field or something that just. They never did.
39:32
Case
Yeah, like the speeding bullet could actually be a kryptonite bullet that kills him at the end. Like, he finally stops, like, being awful and he gets like gunned down. And that's like tying the whole thing together.
39:41
Zach
Brutal almost. This would have been like a good miniseries.
39:46
Jmike
Yeah. I was gonna say this would be a great, like, HBO Max miniseries. Like a single run miniseries or something like that.
39:53
Zach
What if series that Marvel did, but which is Batman is. Or Superman is Batman for six episodes. Let's see what happens.
40:03
Case
Yeah, this feels like that first episode of the what if TV show where with Captain Carter. Because it's just like we're gonna rearrange some stuff to like fit different people into those slots kind of thing. And that. That had the same problem where it felt a little too short. You know, it's just like we're gonna run through these events real quickly and get to the status quo that we need. We need to have likewise here. We're going to run through the basic. I say the basic, but it's not like Batman is known for like, oh, yeah, he showed up on Gotham and had to stop a gang war. Not even gang war, like a mercenary war from the Joker. Yeah. It's too short. It's 60 pages. It should have been like a three issue miniseries or something like that.
40:40
Case
Like, we should have had like a little bit of an arc to the characters.
40:42
Jmike
Yeah.
40:43
Zach
A little bit more time probably make this, I'd say twice as good. Just. It needed more time. It really did.
40:50
Jmike
Yeah.
40:51
Case
Yeah. But it's frustrating because it is so cool. Again, all the premise is awesome. The costumes look great, the art's pretty good. You know, like, it's. It feels very 90s and like more Batman than Superman. But, like, it's pretty good. And like the. As a Superman fan, I'm all. I'm all about saying, like, yeah, Batman's the childish superhero and Superman's a more optimistic adult character who's like, we can better our world. But yeah, you know, and it's weird because it's the early era of elseworlds which are doing these kind of like, tweaked kind of universe stories. And it was heavily advertised at the Time. Because it was such a cool idea. So, like, ads are all over the place, being like, Batman is coming, and they'd show him flying through the night and stuff like that. Like, the, you know, the.
41:36
Case
The COVID image is such a. We haven't talked about the COVID is a tribute to Superman. One where he's, like, leaping over the city. It's such a beautiful look of having Batman in that position. It instantly sells the story you're doing. The only other thing you could do that would work just as well is literally Batman holding a car over his head to hit someone with. If you're trying to sell it that it's Superman, but we're putting Batman in that spot. That's how you do it. So there's a lot going on in that. But it's also early on in the Elseworlds runs where they were trying to do these really short stories. And by. Really short. It's 60 pages. It's not like a regular comic book. But, like, it's not. It's not a full mini. It's not like the nail.
42:18
Case
Like, the nail, which we talked about a few months ago, that was like, letting that story breathe a bit.
42:26
Jmike
Yeah.
42:26
Case
And this one is very compressed, and it would have been nice to have more time in this world of a superpowered Batman.
42:34
Zach
Yeah.
42:34
Jmike
If they had done this like they did the nail, which is like five. Oh, is it five episodes? Five, five books.
42:40
Case
No, that's only three issues. But they're big issues, too.
42:42
Jmike
Oh, yeah. But they have done that three times as good, guaranteed.
42:46
Case
Yeah, yeah. Like, it doesn't need to be Kingdom Come length. Like, so I think three issues actually would be a really nice length for this one. You know, three 60 page issues. Like, that's a pretty. Pretty decent book right there.
42:55
Jmike
Yeah.
42:55
Case
You could have done, like, the. Because you could. You could have done Robin. Like, how do you. Like, how do you get your Jimmy Olsen Robin story there? Or Dick Grayson as like a newsboy? Like, you could have had this whole arc for the characters and a different villain in each issue or something like that. But instead it's like, all right, we're gonna do the most basic Batman story we can slash the most basic Superman story we can and link them together. And like I said, it's. It feels too short for this. And it feels like it should have been like animated movie. Yeah.
43:24
Jmike
Miniseries. That'd be awesome. Somebody called hbo. We've got this great pitch for you guys that's guaranteed to work.
43:33
Case
Yeah, well, it's true, because, like, Batman sells. Like, people would be like, oh, I would check that out. Because he sold in the 90s. He sells today. Like it is really easy to advertise the story. You just show a picture of Batman flying and people are like, yeah, like,.
43:51
Jmike
Don't even say Batman or Superman to say Speeding Bullets is the title.
43:54
Case
Right? Yeah. You show the rocket ship crash at Wayne Manor. You get like the. By the way, Martha, be careful.
44:02
Jmike
That rocket ship was like this big.
44:05
Zach
I feel like a rocket ship crashing at a manor would make news.
44:08
Jmike
Yeah, it was super tiny.
44:10
Case
They've got a really big estate, guys.
44:12
Jmike
No, because like Alfred takes him downstairs and they had the whole big reveal like, oh, you're not human. Hahaha.
44:17
Case
And he takes him in the Batcave.
44:19
Jmike
Yeah. In the Bat Cave. And like the rocket is sitting on like a workbench. And like, it's like they've got like Alfred talks to him about it and Bruce starts going through. I'm gonna say, Clark, Bruce starts going through like the notebook that Thomas is writing about it and everything. And that's how he learns about history slash heritage. They call it the Event.
44:43
Case
Yeah. When the rocket crashes.
44:44
Jmike
But it's a really small ship.
44:45
Zach
This is a really weird design for a ship. It looks like it has a glass bubble on it.
44:49
Case
Well, so that's the 90s look, we are talking about next time the man of Steel miniseries. Sorry, I'm trying to remember when these record in relation to each other. So behind the curtains, we are recording the. Our tie in episode for the Dark Knight Fortnite now, as opposed to a couple weeks ago when were banking a bunch of episodes. So we talked about the man of Steel miniseries, which was the relaunch in the 80s for Superman. And that design came from that book where it's not a rocket ship per se, it is a birthing pod with a rocket attached to it. Because on Krypton, all the babies are test tube babies grown in a vat. And that's the vat. And they just like strapped a rocket with duct tape and fired him into space. Good luck, son.
45:36
Jmike
Yeah,.
45:39
Case
So when you say it looks like an egg, it is like it's actually like a weird Kryptonian tech egg that like raises babies.
45:45
Zach
It feels like a dangerous design for a spaceship.
45:48
Case
Yeah.
45:50
Zach
You can run into a rock and oh, baby's dead.
45:54
Case
Well, they say it's pretty tough. They're like, they make a point of being like, it's tough enough to survive hyperspace, but not so Strong that it'll survive the destruction of our planet. And that's why I'm attaching it rockets to it and shooting it off.
46:05
Zach
Do they aim it, or do they just send it on its way to potentially fly into a star?
46:11
Jmike
They aim it awkwardly.
46:12
Case
They aim it so well that they even say we're aiming at a subsection called Kansas.
46:18
Zach
Well, it missed. It didn't miss.
46:20
Case
In this case, a little bit of wind or, you know, whatever the thing they say could have, like, diverted it from its course.
46:27
Zach
I'll say this, somebody who lives in Kansas and is currently speaking. This place fucking sucks. Can I say that word?
46:33
Case
I don't know if I can say that word.
46:35
Zach
Kansas is boring.
46:36
Case
No, we are in the blue. It's totally fine.
46:39
Zach
Kansas is so boring. There's nothing here.
46:42
Case
I hate it.
46:44
Zach
I'm amazed that Superman doesn't go insane from boredom.
46:47
Case
Well, I mean, that is kind of the premise of Smallville and the current show Superman and Lois, where it's just like, he's so bored. Oh, wait, there's a weird thing.
46:55
Zach
Smallville always irritated because so many high school students died and nobody ever shut that school down.
47:04
Jmike
That is very true.
47:05
Case
That was just the thing of the 90s. Like, in, like, season three of Buffy. They were like, so many of us have died. None of us have talked about it. It's really weird. Buffy, you're the only reason any of us are still alive.
47:14
Zach
Smallville's immemor section probably takes up a good six to seven pages. I'd hate to be on the school yearbook. It's the most depressing job ever.
47:26
Case
Yeah, I remember how, like, devastated I was just to have one person in my class die, let alone, like, 89 or 15 or whatever number it is. Smallville is, what, 10 seasons? So is that someone.
47:38
Zach
I vaguely think they canceled school for us the day that one of our classmates died. And Smallville had that happen almost every week.
47:45
Jmike
Yeah.
47:46
Case
Yeah. Or he just went missing. People care about that.
47:49
Zach
Guys, Smallville also isn't that big of a town. Everybody knew each other.
47:53
Jmike
Yeah.
47:54
Case
It's literally a small ville. All right, the downside of talking about a comic that has such a cool premise, but is also so easy to sum up in just one sentence where it's Superman, but he's Batman, but don't worry. Is that There is.
48:09
Zach
He falls in love with Lois Lane, and it's all good.
48:12
Jmike
Yeah.
48:12
Case
I mean, but that's it. Yeah.
48:14
Zach
That's the overall plot.
48:16
Case
He gave up his grief and he became Superman. Is that there's not that much to say. It's. It is a little too short of a story in terms of, like, having, like, for such a cool idea. Like, I can't believe this. This Batman slash Superman has never shown up again. You know, like, D.C. does these multiverse events all the time. And, like, the Red Sun Superman, where it's Superman but he's Russian, shows up every time because it's like. Well, yeah, it's. It's Russian Superman.
48:41
Jmike
Of course.
48:42
Case
It's fun to show character. This one's fun, too. I don't know why he's like. This is his one appearance.
48:48
Zach
People are more afraid of the communists than a Batman with superpowers in that.
48:54
Case
He is objectively a good guy. He really is, up until he accidentally takes over the world. But he is objectively a good guy until that point.
49:02
Jmike
Technically, he was manipulated to certain degrees, but, like, he still is kind of.
49:06
Zach
Like, God damn, I need to read this, don't I? This sounds interesting.
49:09
Case
Superman runs. You should read that. It's really good.
49:12
Zach
Is it better than this?
49:13
Jmike
Yeah, well.
49:14
Case
Yeah, well, because that's the right length. Like, it's. It's three issues where you get to spend some time with young Superman. Like, young Russian Superman, where it's, like, really optimistic, getting more used to his role in society and then, like, his decline as he sort of, like, overextends himself. And that, I think, is what we needed here. You know, we needed Batman because we needed that tribute to, like, older Batman stuff, like the vigilante thing. We needed a Robin, you know, like, we need all those Batman tropes that we're gonna, like, expect, because it feels like we got, you know, a smidgen of Batman. We got Batman and the Joker, and that's it. Like, we. We got just the 89 Batman movie. And I honestly want the Batman Forever for this. Like, I. I want all those. Like, I, like.
49:59
Case
I even would take the Dark Knight Returns kind of story. And, like, that has to be a conversation someone had where it's like, all right, well, how do you do the Dark Knight Returns where it. The finale is just Batman and Superman fighting? What if he's the same person? It could have been Bizarro.
50:17
Zach
I understand. I think I understood that reference.
50:22
Case
But we just needed more, you know, and, like, there. Because, like, they. This could have been so referential and fun, and it's still. It's still a fun story and a quick read. And, like, for someone who doesn't know it, you know, it's not reliant on. On Backstory for all this stuff. But it. You know, it's also very quick. Like, there's no big struggle for Superman. He's always in complete control of the situation. It's just he. He's, like, pushing himself too far. And maybe that's thesis where it's just like, well, he is so caught up in his own guilt, he. He could do everything. And he's doing such a little thing. Kind of like a Batman who's so rich that he could do a lot more with his money, but instead, he's just beating up people, running around at.
51:03
Jmike
Night, beating up with people.
51:05
Case
I know it's lazy. I know. He's got charities. God at me. No, I mean, like, again, yeah. So there's not a ton to say other than just, like, man, I wish there was more. Like, that's a bummer.
51:17
Jmike
Can't really is. This is, like we keep saying, this is really. It's a really cool concept, but it's so short.
51:23
Zach
It'd better if it was a little longer because then the tropes that it relies on wouldn't be as bad. You can forgive tropes if they're a little bit better done than this one was.
51:34
Case
Yeah. Like, the. His heart being, like, swayed by the. The woman he loves and all that.
51:38
Zach
It would better if there was more of it.
51:40
Case
Yeah. Something like, will they. Won't they kind of bickering going on? Like, her. You know it. This is a slightly more confident Kal El than the Clark Kent we normally get. You know, he's. He's rich, he's handsome, he's nice, He's a little clumsy. He's driven by justice and passion. Like. Like, obviously, he's the perfect man here, but, like, there should be, like, some moments where you're like, are you, like, where he overreaches, you know, like, have a story about, like, what. What does Bruce Wayne running a newspaper look like? Like, that actually is a question I'm curious about. Like, I feel like that's a cool story, you know, where he's so rich and he's telling people to, like, you know, like, where does he overreach? Like, maybe that's the second issue. Like. Like.
52:18
Case
Like, where he's like, no, you can't run that story on Batman because it makes Batman look bad. And, like, maybe it, like, makes a criminal. Like, it'll make a criminal get off easy or something like that, you know, like, where is that conflict of their. You of it all?
52:32
Zach
You can't run that story where Batman Melted people's faces.
52:36
Case
Right? Exactly.
52:38
Jmike
That's not a good look.
52:39
Zach
Guys, come on.
52:40
Jmike
You don't want to do that.
52:42
Case
Because just think on a planetary level, how impossibly powerful this Batman is. This Batman is all the powers of Superman and a billionaire.
52:53
Zach
Oh, God.
52:53
Jmike
Yeah. That's not fair.
52:58
Zach
This is just making me afraid. If it's just Bezos finds a way to get superpowers, right?
53:03
Case
Because he's not going to be as good as that.
53:05
Jmike
There'll be no stopping him.
53:07
Case
He'll make it so you could rent it, and it's going to cost you a shitload of money for a monthly subscription.
53:12
Zach
This is Superpowers Prime.
53:14
Case
What else are you going to do? Are you going to just drive? No. You could fly.
53:16
Zach
Yeah. To Superpowers Prime.
53:22
Jmike
The super vile from. From all star. Superman. 24 Hour potion. $5 Billion.
53:32
Zach
The did we get here?
53:34
Jmike
I don't know.
53:34
Case
It's.
53:35
Zach
It's.
53:36
Case
It's us speculating on all the things they could do with this book that they don't do in this book. Like, it's just a flat. Like, we're going to dabble in Batman, and then at the end, he's going to be like, no, Batman's a bad idea. I should be Superman.
53:47
Jmike
Seriously, hbo, dc, hit us up these ideas, okay? We have all these great ideas, and you guys don't believe in us.
53:54
Case
Metallo Two Face. Harvey Dent is wounded so terribly that they have to transplant his brain into a robot body. And then when he discovers it, he rips off his flesh one side. It's perfect. It works so well. Brainiac. Riddler. Riddler's brain gets uploaded into the Brainiac surfers, and now it's just like a supercomputer of questions.
54:12
Zach
I want to read these comic books.
54:16
Case
They would be awesome if they existed.
54:18
Jmike
Yeah, or you could do the reverse. Have. Have Edward Nygma working on, like, a Hal 9000.
54:26
Case
Oh, he creates Brainiac.
54:27
Jmike
He creates Brainiac.
54:28
Case
Oh, okay. Yeah, that's also pretty good.
54:30
Jmike
And then Brainiac gains sentience, and that'd be awesome. Yeah, that'd be awesome. Seriously. Come on, guys. Dc, hbo, we got this. Okay, but that's it.
54:42
Case
I mean, like, again, the costume is great. It's. It's on DC Universe Infinite right now, so if you have a subscription, you can check it out. And our complaint is that it's too short. So it's not like it's a big time commitment to check it out. Like, I would. I would recommend it to everyone, even if it's underwhelming it's still really cool. How about you guys?
55:01
Jmike
Yes, same thing. It's really cool concept. Lots of fun, but it's.
55:06
Zach
I remember enjoying it until about the last 10 pages, and. Yeah, like, they're sprinting towards a finish line that they're not ready to go to. Yeah.
55:14
Case
Even two issues would just, like, make it feel like we had some time with it. Like, he's. He's barely Batman.
55:20
Zach
King's Batman for 20 minutes.
55:24
Case
Yeah. Not forever for nothing. Well, Zach, this is the comic that I dragged you out of your retirement to read. Do I need to be saying sorry?
55:37
Zach
No, I still enjoyed reading it. I wish they had done more with it, which is. I think we have about an hour of audio that is just saying that back then is us explaining how we wish there was a little bit more of it and then giving our ideas of what they could have done. We should be writers.
55:54
Case
I mean, sometimes you just want to create your own superhero universe.
55:57
Jmike
So.
55:57
Case
Zach, people have listened to me talk about my adventures as Hank Hamilton, one of the Young Sentinels, but talk a little bit about your own experiences.
56:06
Zach
I am on the SHU podcast as well, but I'm on a different little show. I am an alien from space who, in a lot of ways, is a lot of Superman tropes about her. She was carrying all of her people around her neck for a while. That seems like a super man thing to do. She's got a lot of time powers. She's really powerful, and she's very angry all the time. And a lot of the show is June tempting me to kill people and me having to resist that urge.
56:42
Jmike
She's Palpatine in you.
56:45
Case
Yeah, she. She's insidious.
56:48
Zach
I feel like I have spent the entire season trying to make Zach control his anchor, and now we're gonna just let him go hog wild. We still have, like, three episodes of Weirdos that have to come out. Oh, we call ourselves the Weirdos, by the way. I don't know if we've ever said it on canon, but the shorthand is we are the weirdos group.
57:10
Case
The. The Weird Adventures in Space show. So for those who are tuning in to just this episode and have never listened to anything else that we've done, SHU is a singular podcast feed with weekly episodes, but each week is a different show, all in the same canon of comic stuff. So there's Young Sentinels, which is what I'm on. Weird Adventures in Space, which is what you're on, Zach. Tales of Villainy and then Union of Heroes and so it's just the different type. Like not all the different types, but it's four different types of superhero stories. You can do teen team, like a Listers, your space stuff and then your. Your villains kind of story. And yeah, that's that. That's that story. It's a lot of fun. People should check out the SHU podcast. Like it's. It's great. I really enjoy it.
57:55
Case
I was so glad to meet June at that Geeklycon and apparently meet you. Although it was like 3am when were all just like sitting around a table talking about both a card game and also Superman. So it's. It's been a while.
58:08
Zach
I think we only talked for like an hour and then. And then I went and I got drunk and forgot the rest of the night.
58:15
Case
I mean, I was in the process of. So, you know, as it work, man, the last geeklycon, that was. That was fun. I miss conventions, but people should check that out and then they should check out the rest of the certain point of view. Dark Knight Fortnite that we are doing for the release of. Of the Batman. There's tons of great shows doing Batman stuff. I'm going to point out that it was the real movie critic versus the cine guy who got the ball rolling on it. So their show is going to be sort of the point for that because they're actually going to be reviewing the Batman and they're guesting on a bunch of other shows. Like, I'm doing the art right now for Screen Snark where they're guesting on that.
58:57
Case
But over on another past, my other show, we're talking about Batman and Robin. We've got lots of Batman content. So if you like Batman and don't like the fact that we spent a while talking about how he is the child in a Halloween costume and is not as mature as Superman, check out all those other ones, which definitely be much more praising of Batman than the Superman show. I honestly didn't think. I didn't remember that it was that negative about Batman. When I suggested we talk about this book, I was like, oh yeah, he's Batman and then becomes Superman at the end. I forgot that they were quite so mean about the character and that I would be in that mode too. Even though I also like Batman. It's just like you got to deal.
59:41
Case
Like you have to come to terms with the fact that money can do a lot.
59:44
Zach
I also prefer Batman over Superman.
59:47
Case
Sure. And I get it. Like, it's just. It's kind of funny to think about sometimes, like, just like in Superman, Batman Generations, he's so wealthy that he takes over, like, the League of Shadows. Ra's, a ghoul's, like, organization, and turns it into, like, an aid service that, like, brings, like, medicine to people all over the world and whatnot. And after he's done with all of that and, like, basically turns the world into a utopia by way of being rich, he's like, all right, well, now that I've done that, I'm gonna go back to being Batman, because I enjoy being Batman. And that's a Batman I respect where it's his hobby. Like, the small stuff is his, like, relief from saving the world on a bigger scale. And I get that version. But yeah, this. This book is a little more negative than that.
01:00:31
Zach
Doesn't paint him in a super positive light.
01:00:34
Case
But if you want a more positive light on Batman, there's lots of Batman content. Check it all out. We're going to be posting episodes on Twitter under the hashtag darknightfortnight. So check out all those. You can find all that@ certainpow.com, you can find us on Discord, where we have a link@ certainpov.com to that Discord. We're having this call on Discord right now. Come interact with us. We really enjoy just chatting with people, sharing memes, giving sneak peeks for episodes, talking about Batman, talking about other stuff. If it's nerdy, we can talk about it. As for me, you can find me on Twitter Aace Aiken. You can find the show enofsteelpod. J. Mike, where can they find you?
01:01:08
Jmike
They can find me on Twitter mike101. And, you know, the more I look at this costume, I'm like, it'll be really terrifying if he didn't have any eyes.
01:01:16
Case
Right. Like, what? He doesn't need it. Aside from maybe the heat beams, so. Oh, okay. So I guess he probably has eye holes every time.
01:01:25
Zach
Yeah.
01:01:25
Case
And they have to put a new mask on the next day.
01:01:28
Zach
They don't start with the eye holes.
01:01:30
Case
Right. It is just a gimp suit he bought at a store. I mean, this Kal, his mom did not make his outfit, so. So he had to buy it or,.
01:01:40
Jmike
Like, every time you see him, like, he's got. He's got the. The. No, no eyes. But by the end of the night, he's, like, zapped so many people that, like, smoke coming off the costume where his eyes are.
01:01:50
Case
Right. God, what does burning leather smell like? I don't want to think about that. Anyway, we'll be back in two weeks talking about man of Steel, the. The 1986 miniseries that relaunched Superman for, quote unquote, the modern era, even though that's now. Several retcons passed at this point.
01:02:09
Zach
That was about four modern eras ago, right? Yeah, something like that.
01:02:13
Jmike
Exactly.
01:02:13
Case
More or less, but for a while. And when this comic came out, that was the modern reintroduction of Superman. So we'll be back for that. Zach, thank you for coming on the show.
01:02:23
Zach
Yay. It went better than I thought it would.
01:02:26
Case
Do you have any plugs you want to give besides shu?
01:02:29
Zach
I can be found on Twitter at Purple Space Switch without the E in purple because I tie too much of my identity into the character that I play on it on the said show.
01:02:37
Case
Fair enough. Check that out, and we'll see you in two weeks. Until then, stay super man.
01:02:46
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo is by Chris Bautista, episode art is by Case Aiken, and our theme is by Jeff Moon.
01:03:05
Zach
Is that your regular sign off?
01:03:08
Case
Yeah.
01:03:12
Zach
Oh, God damn it.
01:03:14
Case
This March, get ready for two weeks of the Bat, two weeks of vengeance, two weeks of the Dark Knight Fortnite.
01:03:29
Speaker 4
Hey there, screenbeans. Have you heard about Screen Snark?
01:03:32
Case
Rachel, this is an ad break. They aren't screenbeans until they listen to the show.
01:03:37
Speaker 4
Fine. Potential screen beans. You like movies and TV shows, right?
01:03:41
Case
I mean, who doesn't? Screensnark is a casual conversation about the movies and television shows that are shaping us as we live our everyday lives.
01:03:48
Speaker 4
That's right, Matt. We have a chat with at least one incredible guest every episode. Hailing from all walks, we've interviewed chefs, writers, costumers, musicians, yoga teachers, comedians, burlesque dancers, folks in the film and TV industry, and more.
01:04:03
Case
We'd be delighted for you to join us every other Monday on the certain.
01:04:06
Speaker 4
POV podcast network or wherever you get your podcasts fresh and tasty off the presses.
01:04:12
Case
What? That's. No, that's not.
01:04:14
Speaker 4
Can I call them screen beans now? Fine, Scream beans.
01:04:24
Case
So tune in and we'll see you at the movies or on a couch somewhere.
01:04:29
Speaker 4
Cause you're a whole scream beans now.