Episode 151 - Cla$$War with Jesse Fresco

This week on Men of Steel, Case and Jmike are joined by writer and critic Jesse Fresco to dig into the early 2000s series Cla$$War. We unpack the political fury, superhero deconstruction, and lasting relevance of this overlooked gem from the Bush-era boom in gritty, socially charged comics.

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Overview

• Class War comic serves as a political commentary on post-9/11 America, initially conceived as a 12-issue series but only 6 issues were published between 2002 and 2004.

• Writer Rob Williams influenced by Bill Hicks and Marvel's Miracle Man, blending humor with serious themes of government superhero programs.

• Characters feature a Superman-like hero and an Enola Gay team reflecting various archetypes, but backstory is minimal focusing more on action.

• The commentary emphasizes American superheroes as 'deterrents' entangled in corruption and drug operations rather than showcasing true class conflict.

• Artwork utilized innovative computer coloring for the early 2000s, with notable scenes praised for their intensity and execution.

• The series is linked to broader cultural events, including the Patriot Act and militarized entertainment, creating a lasting impact on the genre.

• Story arcs reveal escalating tensions, ending ambiguously without showing direct conflict or resolution in the finale.

• Hosts reflect on the comic's themes feeling 'adolescent' today, yet resonate with current events like rising political tensions and violence.

• Class War recommended alongside classics like The Authority and Superman/Batman: Public Enemies, highlighted for its unfinished nature and mystique.

• The discussion underscores a shift in superhero portrayals, questioning the effectiveness of traditional heroes in the current socio-political landscape.

Notes

️ Introduction and Setup (00:00 - 09:36)

• Discussion of Class War comic as political commentary on post-9/11 America, described as 'what if Superman was pissed off about 9/11'.

• Jesse Fresco returns after Jaguar Sharks podcast ended in January, currently working on a novel after crossing 200 pages.

• Class War intended as 12-issue series but only 6 issues published - first 3 in 2002, final 3 in 2004 by Com X publisher.

• Notable art style change between Trevor Harrison (issues 1-3) and Travel Foreman (issues 4-6), both considered high quality for indie publication.

Historical Context and Influences (09:36 - 18:49)

• Comic written before 9/11 but published after, coincidentally capturing post-9/11 American sentiment perfectly.

• Received major attention from Wizard magazine and early comic websites despite being small indie publication.

• Writer Rob Williams heavily influenced by comedian Bill Hicks, directly copying Kennedy assassination joke in comic.

• Williams cited Marvel Man/Miracle Man as major influence, both featuring government superhero programs with Nazi scientist connections.

‍️ Character Analysis and Comic Structure (18:49 - 27:56)

• Superman-type character design with mostly white bodysuit, blue stripe, and star pattern - described as 'patriotic Apollo'.

• Minimal backstory provided beyond brief flashback showing protagonist's brother died of heroin overdose.

• Enola Gay superhero team includes The American, Heavyweight (Luke Cage-type), Icon (Wonder Woman analog), and Confusion (psychic character).

️ Political Commentary and Themes (27:56 - 38:02)

• Reveals American superheroes used as 'deterrents' rather than weapons, involved in drug trafficking operations.

• Despite title 'Class War,' actual class conflict rarely shown - more focused on government corruption than economic inequality.

• Problematic portrayal of Black character written by British creators, described as 'Mike Tyson as super soldier'.

Art and Production Quality (38:02 - 48:12)

• Utilized cutting-edge computer coloring and gradients that were revolutionary for early 2000s comics.

• Heavyweight vs American battle particularly praised, featuring brutal jaw-punching scene later parodied by Garth Ennis.

• Com X publisher folded after initial run, Image Comics later acquired reprint rights.

Cultural Impact and Comparisons (48:12 - 58:18)

• Frequently compared to Warren Ellis's Authority series despite Williams claiming unfamiliarity.

• Influenced Garth Ennis's The Boys, Warren Ellis's Black Summer, and Mark Millar's War Heroes.

• Part of broader cultural shift including 'freedom fries,' Patriot Act, and militarized entertainment.

Story Structure Analysis (58:19 - 01:08:43)

• Issue 1 - Superman burns 'LIAR' into President's forehead; Issue 2 - Heavyweight fight; Issue 3 - Bridge episode; Issues 4-6 - Government conspiracy revelation.

• Series ends with American and Isaac preparing for civil war, never showing actual conflict or resolution.

• Heavyweight confirmed killed by shield weapon, Jefferson transforms into monster.

️ Modern Relevance Discussion (01:08:44 - 01:18:51)

• Comic feels 'adolescent' and 'naive' when read today, but captured appropriate anger for its time.

• Hosts discuss how recent events (CEO shooting, political tensions) make comic's themes more relevant.

• Question whether Superman-type heroes work in current political climate versus Punisher-style vigilantes.

Conclusion and Recommendations (01:18:52 - 01:25:43)

• Recommended alongside The Authority, Garth Ennis's 303, and Superman/Batman: Public Enemies.

• Better remembered as unfinished work with mystique than potentially disappointing completion.

• Plugs for CPOV Media Patreon, Movie Struck podcast, and Discord community.

Transcription

00:00
Jesse
What we got to say about.

00:01
Case
About the world. And this is a perfect ground for just. Just event session about the state of things.

00:11
Jesse
Typically, I think on this. On this show, you guys don't get political because it's. It's a Superman show. It's a superhero show. It's. There's not really a need to get political. Yeah, you venture into it every now and again, but the title of the comic recovery tonight is Class War. And unless you've been living under a rock for the last 20 years, we're in the middle of a giant class war in the United States right now, and it's never been more apparent than in the last 30 days.

00:40
Jmike
Yeah.

00:43
Jesse
So we're gonna get pretty heated. I think on this episode, we're gonna touch on some stuff. You'll probably get a little pissed off. I'm sure we all will get a little pissed off, but yeah. Yeah, if you don't want to hear politics, just skip to the next episode. This one's not for you.

01:01
Case
Yep, yep. We're. We're talking about class war, which was basically, what if Superman was pissed off about 9 11? Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Haken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, J. Mike Fsen.

01:47
Jmike
What is up, Case? What is up, everybody?

01:50
Case
What is up in the sky? What. Who actually, Who. Who is that? Who is that over there? There's an ominous figure floating in the.

01:58
Jmike
Is.

01:58
Case
Is that Superman analog? The American floating over there? Yeah. Yes. Yes, it is. We. We are having a conversation about a. A strange piece of post 911 fiction, although apparently inspired by not 911 scenarios and. And just sort of came out in. In the wake of it and just hit exactly the right zeitgeist there. Anyway, long story short, it. It. It's a comic that I have had a long appreciation for, and our guest had a long appre. So today we're talking about Class War. And to have that conversation, we are joined by Jesse Fresco.

02:36
Jesse
Hello. I'm back again. My first recording since Jaguar Sharks wrapped up at the beginning of January. I haven't done one of these in a minute.

02:44
Case
I know the weird part about the podcast time, especially my shows, because we typically record pretty far ahead, is that you and Hope and basically everyone from Jaguar Sharks cameoed and then sort of retired long before the episode actually dropped.

03:02
Jesse
Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah. It's like we. We just got to the point where everybody was kind of going off in their separate directions. Hope is now helping to run a non profit. She's going to be moving out to I think California in about a year or so. So she's getting out of Florida, she's getting out of the Hellscape, she's escaping, moving to a blue state, thankfully. And I'm. I just got tired of doing reviews for movies and stuff like that and I've just been exhausted. So I start. I'm currently working on a novel and that's taking up a lot of my time. I just crossed the 200 pa. Seth doesn't record anymore. His board died and he doesn't have time for this anymore. So everyone's just kind of.

03:40
Jesse
It just kind of got to the point where it's like, yeah, there's too many barriers to keep going. It's time to call it quits. Like never say never on returning. But it's unlikely.

03:50
Case
Right. Which is honestly the case for the comic that we're talking about today, if we want to pivot into that kind of conversation. So today we are talking about the comic Class War, which was an indie mini. It's not really a miniseries, but an indie series that. That came out.

04:06
Jesse
Unfinished mini.

04:07
Jmike
Yeah.

04:08
Case
Well, it's.

04:08
Jesse
This is not a finished book. This is not finished.

04:11
Case
It was intended to be 12 issues. What came out was six and initially only three. So J. Mike, can you tell in the comic when this. The switch occurs between the first three and then the back three?

04:24
Jesse
Yeah, yeah. The artwork very much changes. You can kind of tell.

04:30
Case
Good artwork in both sections, but just very distinct difference.

04:35
Jesse
Yeah, I like. I like Trevor Harrison's artwork. Think his stuff is really good. He did some stuff for Valiant for a while. Rest in peace, Valiant. If it seems like they're about to go up and smoke and then travel, Foreman came in to finish off the series, which I like. It doesn't really have as much personality as Trevor Harrison, but it's still pretty good. I think the big problem I've always had with Harrison's stuff is his eyes. Eyes on. His characters always look a little weird to me. They look a little too beady sometimes. That's just my one little niggling problem with his stuff. But overall I really love his. His energy. His line work is really strong.

05:09
Case
Yeah, I mean it's. It's honestly very strong art in this book considering the fact that it is a non public like it is a. A nothing of an indie publisher.

05:19
Jesse
It's. Yeah. Does this comic come and even exist anymore? Was it Com X?

05:23
Case
Com X?

05:24
Jesse
Have they put out anything else?

05:25
Case
No, it was they. They kind of were done in 2002. Or let's see, it was 2008. Present is what on the Wikipedia page, which I think just includes, like, the reprinting of Class War.

05:38
Jesse
Yeah, that's the one I got.

05:39
Case
Which has an image logo, at least on, like, one version of it.

05:42
Jesse
I. I think Image picked up the brand, picked up the. The rights to this, and started doing the reprints for soft covers. I think they've got the brand now. Yeah. Which kind of sucks because you think that they would at least ask him, hey, you want to finish the last six issues? Now's the time. But they. I guess the Rob Williams is just too busy writing Dread.

06:03
Case
I don't know if now is the time, frankly. Like, honestly, like, even when. Even when the back half of the. Of the book came out, like, it was. It was already kind of feeling like it was past the exact point where it was like, yeah. Quite as cutting edge as when it came out. Like when it came out. And. And this is just sort of like, all right, okay, so there's a lot.

06:25
Jesse
To unpack with this story.

06:26
Case
Yeah, we're unpack on this one. Let's start with the fun game that we have oftentimes when we talk about a comic series that is a little bit more obscure. J Mike, what the fuck did you think were going into when you read this?

06:41
Jmike
Well, I think the tagline you sent me was, Superman goes AWOL after 9 11. And I was like, cool, let's see what this is about.

06:49
Jesse
That's the Pentagon.

06:52
Jmike
I was like, cool, because like, you said that it automatically made me think of where I was when all this stuff was going down. Oh, my gosh, 24 years ago. And so I was like, all right, cool. Put you back in the frame of mind of what was going on. So I was reading this and I was like, oh, this is kind of like a Jason Bourne type Mission Impossible type scenario where, like, everyone is trying to, like, take out the people who know all the answers.

07:17
Jesse
The main character is Jason Bourne -50 IQ points. I would argue that.

07:21
Jmike
Yes.

07:22
Case
Yeah.

07:23
Jesse
Yeah, that's. That's one criticism I have. And we'll get to that.

07:26
Case
But with superpowers, and that's like a pretty good.

07:28
Jmike
Yeah, but like, superpowers remind me more of Mr. Miracle almost than, oh, Miracle Man. Like a miracle man. Yeah.

07:34
Jesse
Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I totally.

07:37
Case
We will talk about a comparison there, because there's a strong comparison that the writer makes between the two series. Series. And once that comparison is made, you're like, oh, yeah, that's obvious.

07:48
Jesse
Yeah.

07:50
Case
So I'm glad that you nailed in on that part. Like, you zeroed in on a detail that's like, really important to.

07:56
Jmike
Was like, okay. Because like, you're like, okay, cool. They're doing a whole, like, we have to uncover the true type thing. I'm like, okay, you got me. This is, it's a nice little hook. And then stuff starts to hit the fan and like, it gets really crazy after a while and his old friends kind of turn into like Watchmen where everyone is like suspicious about everybody and everyone's killing each other off and everything.

08:18
Jesse
I'm like, oh, it's very much. It kind of leans into the militarization of the superhero. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of comics that spun out of the influence of this. I mean, sure, Garth Ennis was influenced by this. For the Boys. Warren Ellis did a couple of books. One was called Black Summer, where a Superman type character marches into the White House and kills the president, the vice president and the cabinet, and then goes on television and says, I've murdered everybody in the government. We will now have free elections. And then the military just descends on him. Like, the military are the bad guys in that story. There's another book called no Hero, another Warren Ellis comic. I hate promoting Warren Ellis comics at this point because he's a. Same with Neil Gaiman. A lot of our legendary British writers.

09:04
Case
Here's the thing. And like, because like, I, I was like on like tip of my tongue was the deal. Gaming comparison. Like the. Neil gave it so much worse in this comparison.

09:13
Jesse
I know, I know. It's just all of our. If anything comes out about Alan Moore, every single one of these comics that I have on my shelf, I'm just going to take them out to a trash fire.

09:21
Case
I know, that's. That's the vibe. So the Warren Ellison comparison is valid because everyone compared this to the Authority when it first came out.

09:30
Jesse
So this comes out the Authority? Absolutely.

09:32
Jmike
Oh, really?

09:34
Case
And it's in the wake of the Authority. Now the writer Rob Williams claims that he was not familiar with the series at all or with the Authority when he put this book together. And when you look at the timetable for what comics are like in terms of like how long it takes to like put together a comic book to write it and then to put it out there. This ends up coming out in the wake of 9 11, but was written before 9 11.

10:04
Jesse
It happens. It's a, it's a weird Wild coincidence. It could happen, you know, but it's.

10:08
Case
It was exactly the taste that, like, the American audience was looking for.

10:14
Jesse
True.

10:14
Case
When it. When it came out, like, all of the comic book magazines were, like, obsessed with this book. When it came out. Wizard was like, nuts for. The early websites were all crazy for it. Like, there was like, this huge interest in this book because it felt like it was catering to the weird feelings that were all experiencing. Because not only is this in the. The wake of 9 11, it's actually when we're starting to, like, question all the. That 9 11, like, stirred up because, you know, like, there was the immediate fallout. There's all the patriotism. There's all that, like, that. That happens.

10:50
Jesse
Oh, yeah. That forced patriotism.

10:52
Case
Oh, my God. Yeah, like. Oh, my God. Like, it. Talk about a weird era for. For all of us, you know, because there was this national tragedy that we all just sort of, like, united behind and, you know, for a minute there were like, all easily sold everything. You know, that's what the Patriot act happens. That has all that. That's how all these things occur.

11:12
Jesse
And like, banning. Banning certain types of music on the radio. Like, are you serious? Like, is this seriously where we're at?

11:19
Case
Freedom Fries conversation.

11:20
Jesse
Oh, God. Are they trying to bring that back?

11:23
Case
I mean, like, we're effectively in the spiritual sequel of that era right now. But, like.

11:28
Jesse
Oh, great.

11:30
Case
Like, the point is it. It was a very weird era. And this comes out actually right on the crest of the wave of us kind of having whiplash to it all and kind of waking up to everything. And it felt incredibly raw and.

11:50
Jesse
Yeah.

11:51
Case
And real and visceral at the time it first came out. And those first three issues, which have really good art and really good computer effects, which was so new in comics at the time. Yeah, you know, like, the 90s was the era of, like, first waking up to using computer art, but to really, like, wake up to using computer, like gradients and so forth, like, really kicked in with like 99 into the early 2000s. And so this is like an era where, like, we. We were hungry for the level of, like, computer, like, augmented coloring that was going on here. Like, effects that just couldn't have been done 10 years earlier in comics, let alone 20 or more earlier. And then you have, like, this fairly, like, interesting story with, like, really cool, like, big, dramatic, like, action beats.

12:42
Case
You know, like, the fight with heavyweight is like, a standout in this book.

12:46
Jesse
Oh, that's great. That's such a great scene. Oh, God. Punches his jaw off. Jesus Christ.

12:53
Case
But it's a tiny book on a tight. Like, it got. It probably got more press than, like. Honestly, it was designed to get because. Because of coming out of this, like, tiny little book or like this little publishing studio, Com X that was just like.

13:09
Jesse
Yeah.

13:10
Case
You know, like, it just couldn't sustain itself. Like the. There's just not money behind the book. And so it only got three issues initially. And then two years later it gets the other three. Three issues. And at that point already, it felt like things were no longer up to speed with this all. Like, yeah, again, I can't reading this and knowing that this was written before 911 makes it insane. But reading this, it feels like such like. Like Team America level of, like, satire and anger. And so, you know, it's exactly that because it's. It's. It's the same moment when it's really coming out. Like, Team America is in response to 9 11. And this is actually just like in response to the American machine that 911 would just trigger.

13:59
Case
But it's still doing a similar kind of satire and scratching a similar kind of itch and give it a few more years. And it doesn't feel like Team America is a smarter version than this, I guess, is what I'm getting at. Yeah.

14:16
Jesse
That's the one thing I would say is a negative of this book, is that even the writer, Rob Williams, there's a. There's a preface at the beginning of this collected edition. Rob Williams, the writer, says it comes off a little naive. It's like. Yeah, like, are you telling me the superhero character, the Superman type character doesn't know that drugs are being trafficked into the United States from foreign nations? You didn't know that? That's been. That's been documented that we did that in Vietnam. Like, we would.

14:43
Case
Yeah.

14:43
Jesse
What's called. What's called body packing. Basically, they would strip out the guts of dead US Soldiers, pack in heroin and cocaine, and ship back to the States. This was a CIA operation, part of the Golden Triangle. We. We knew this. We did this. America knew this. And then this would. This would be shuffled onto the streets in order to further slow down the civil rights movement. There's a great quote by. Was it John Ehrlichman? I think you know what quote I'm talking about. He was the assistant to the President of Domestic affairs under Richard Nixon. This is his quote. You wanna know what this war on drugs was really about? The Nixon campaign in 1968 and the Nixon White House after that had two enemies the anti war left and black people. You understand what I'm saying?

15:28
Jesse
We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black. But by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt their communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know were lying about the drugs? Of course we did. Go, America.

15:52
Case
Yeah. And then this gets into the. The further conversation, which is that we are talking about this comic in 2025.

16:00
Jesse
Yeah. Welcome to welcome to Hell.

16:03
Case
Well, there's the state of the world that we're in, but there's honestly the other part of it which is the state of the world that we're in, which is that we are connected in a way tools and information and research that were not up to speed with. Like, this comic feels very adolescent. Like, it's like, man, like America's actually the bad guy, man. Like, check out all the stuff that we're responsible for, man. You know, it has that kind of a vibe to it. Like someone who's just waking up to the. The terror. That is like observing the American machine. Now, considering the fact that it is actually a British creative team.

16:42
Jesse
Yeah, that. Another thing is that it's. It's people outside the US criticizing American policy. And Rob Williams even says that this was inspired by a healthy dose of Bill Hicks albums. I'm a huge fan of Bill Hicks. I love Bill Hicks. One of the best comedians of all time. And there's a. He literally copies a Bill Hicks joke in this. He literally copies the moment when. When the president. That at one point looks a lot like Harrison Ford. That was really odd to me. I think he was copying Harrisburg from Air Force One. He is watching footage of the Kennedy assassination, but it's from angle you've never seen before. That's a Bill Hicks joke. The joke goes, you know, it's probably influencing policy now.

17:21
Jesse
Whenever a new president gets sworn in, they get brought into this smoky room with all these, you know, these rich suits, they're chomping cigars, and somebody goes, roll the film. And then a screen comes down and a video starts up. And it's a shot of the Kennedy assassination from angle you've never seen before that looks suspiciously like that of the grassy knoll. Then the video ends, the screen goes up and the cigar chomping guy goes. Any questions? Just what my agenda is. First we Bomb Baghdad. You got it. That's what he's watching.

17:54
Case
I mean. Yes. That is actually that scene right there. And then you get into the other half of the sort of inspirations for the Saul, which is Williams claims that miracle man, that. That Marvel man and Captain Britain, but that Marvel man was a huge inspiration. And when. When you say that and you get into the whole, like, oh, it's actually Nazi scientists who have just done a government project to like, create super, you know, super characters to. To work on. On a government team, like. Yeah, no, it's exactly that. It is a less subtle ve. The Marvel man situation that occurs.

18:32
Jesse
You get vibes of Captain America in there a little bit as well. Like.

18:36
Case
Sure. But I mean, like, Marvel man, like, literally has like. It's a British, like, super project.

18:40
Jesse
Oh, yeah.

18:40
Case
To create a Superman type character like that.

18:43
Jesse
So I do love. I do love the part when Jefferson turns into the disgusting monster. And then the scientist goes, are you going to kill me now? Yes. And then he just goes, heil Hitler. I was like, okay. That reminded me of Dr. Strange. Love the ending of Dr. Strange. Love. Where he's like, man fuhrer. I can walk. It reminded me of that.

19:01
Case
Yeah, definitely. Like, shades of Doctor Strange left like crazy on this.

19:04
Jesse
Oh, God. When the nuke goes off and blows up the entire island, which is called Glanada, I think they wanted to say Grenada, but I think he wanted to change it for the sake.

19:12
Case
Yeah. Yeah. And that's the other part about this, which is that it's, like, weirdly defanged by doing not real crimes and not real locations.

19:24
Jesse
Yeah. If I. I feel like he really wanted, like you were saying, this is kind of adolescence. Like, it's kind of. It feels like it's kind of reeled back in a little bit. If this was written today, it'll be real locations. It'd be real crimes. You would see, like, full on, like, hate crimes against black people. Like, there's. They try to lean into that a little bit, but you can see it's kind of pulled back a bit now. You can see. You could see it being like, okay, this would be much angrier today right now.

19:52
Case
That said, this was exactly what was supposed to be in the marketplace at the time. Like, the. The level of profanity, the. The level of anger, the level of realism were all appropriate for the era of comics at the time. You know, like, this is the same era as, like, the Mark Millar, like, authority, where things were like, yeah, we're. We're superhumans testing the limits of, like, what reality, you know, like, you know, what dictators are out there and, like, what. What real kind of crimes we can actually resolve. But. But the. The actual nations still aren't actually being affected, so it doesn't matter that it's a fake nation in here, as long as it's supposed to represent, like, real problems that are occurring. The. The downside is that it's not teaching the reader about real American crimes.

20:48
Jesse
Yeah. I feel like if this was written by somebody with a little bit more tact. I mean, I don't. I don't want to say. I know it sounds derogatory. I love Rob Williams. He's a great writer. He's written a lot of great Judge Dredd stories. But I think he was just. He was young and he was brash and kind of figuring is finding his voice, if this was written by John Hickman, this would be so angry all the time. Like, John Hickman is, like, one of the nicest people you'll ever meet if you read his early stuff, like the Nightly News.

21:17
Case
Yeah.

21:18
Jesse
God damn, that thing is pissed off. Holy. That is one of the angriest books I've ever read in my life. That and Garth Ennis's 303, which also, I think takes a lot of influence from.

21:28
Case
Well, and you know what's fascinating about the Nightly News bringing that one up is that specifically that is Hickman, with him, trying to do a thing within the limits of his, like, graphic design capabilities. Like, yeah, he was an ad.

21:42
Jesse
He was. He was doing ad. Was it advertising? He was. He was an ad designer and is, like, hating his job. And he was like, I want to create something useful and unique and interesting. And so he used his job to create something like that.

21:55
Case
Like, can you imagine if Hickman, in that was given the art talent of, like, Trevor Harrison? Like, that's where you know it, because this is so raw. But it has such great art.

22:08
Jesse
I know it does. And.

22:11
Case
And I'm not trying to be negative about this book. Like. Like, J.

22:14
Jesse
It's a good comic. It's good. It just. It just.

22:16
Case
It.

22:16
Jesse
It feels like it's written by a 15 year old.

22:19
Case
Yeah. So. So, J. Mike, what are. What are your thoughts? Because, like, we have dominated this conversation, and you're the one coming in completely cold to it. Like, what did you think of the six issues?

22:30
Jmike
Like, I mean, it was. It was. It was very whiplashy at certain points because you're like. He starts off, like, with the American tattooing liar across the President's face.

22:42
Case
Not tattooing.

22:43
Jesse
No, he, like, branding. Burns it into his face.

22:45
Case
Burns it with his heat vision.

22:49
Jmike
And then you've got, like, an ex CIA agent who reminded me of the dude from Mission Impossible who's kind of, like, around, and he pops up like, hey, here's some more information. We got this mission to do. And we're like, all right, cool. But he's, like, super old and, like, two weeks away from retirement, but he wants to, like, do the right thing.

23:07
Case
Ironically, very close to, like, the MCU version of Nick Fury.

23:11
Jmike
Yeah.

23:11
Jesse
Yeah, that's a good point. Isn't this around the time the Ultimates was coming around when Mark Millar was working on that?

23:18
Case
This predates the Ultimates. Like, Mark Millar was doing the Authority still at this point. Okay, this predates the ultimate, but I don't know if this predates Ultimate X Men when the Nick Fury from that shows up. But that's like, a young, hip, black guy, Nick Fury, as opposed to, like, just being Sam Jackson. Like, Sam Jackson doesn't show up until, like, the Ultimates.

23:37
Jesse
Yeah, that. When they re. They restart everything.

23:40
Case
Yeah.

23:41
Jesse
Mart Belar also did another comic that also didn't get finished. It was a comic called War Heroes. Did you guys read any of this? I didn't. It only made it. It only made three issues. It wasn't great. It had some interesting ideas. And the idea was that soldiers in the military, they would be put into this experimental program to fight in Afghanistan. And so they would be given superpowers, but you would basically take pills, and it would give you temporary powers. So you wanted to fly. Take one pill, you could fly for an hour. You want super strength? Take one pill, you can punch really strong for an hour. And so it was interesting ideas and the twist of the story that they were leading up to that Mark Miller didn't finish because he never finishes anything.

24:19
Jesse
In issue three, the twist was that the US Soldiers were going to sell the pills to Al Qaeda. And that's where the story just kind of stops because Mark Belar wrote himself into a corner and didn't finish it. Yeah, it's. It's an interesting idea. I think I still have the issues in my. In my long boxes in the back, but you can clearly feel like, oh, yeah, this is just class war. It's just class war. The way, like, the. The same cover of this is used in the second issue cover of War Heroes. I'll try to find it right now, but, yeah, you can feel it that this did influence a lot of people. Despite the kind of simplistic nature of the. The overall story.

25:02
Case
Yeah, I mean, like, I think I can compare this with like, with like grunge, for example, where like, the rawness is like, is a selling part. You know, it's. It's a feature, not a bug to. To it all. But, but no, J. Mike, like, I, I go on, like, give us your general thoughts about like the story structure and so forth. Like, was.

25:21
Jmike
How old was the old black guy? Because I think he almost had a heart attack when they were flying back to the States and I was like, is he dying? Is Nick Fury about to die?

25:29
Case
I mean, that's a comfort for Nick Fury character.

25:32
Jesse
So, like.

25:32
Case
Yeah, or rather for like a. Well, actually, yes, for all Nick Fury characters, but especially for a Sam Jackson Nick Fury character. But I think that is quite appropriate right there.

25:44
Jmike
And then you got like his old team was like Enola Gay or whatever it was called. What were they called?

25:49
Case
Yes, the Enola Gay.

25:51
Jesse
Yeah, there you go. I just dropped the COVID for issue three of War Heroes into the chat. It's like literally the same image, like Al Qaeda insurgents, which is a very racist depiction of Al Qaeda on the COVID on the wing of an F16. Yeah. I don't care for Mark Millar as a writer personally, so. But anyways, the black character that's in this. What even is his name? That's one thing I would say is a negative, that I never really got to know anybody on a personal level.

26:26
Case
Isaac.

26:27
Jesse
Isaac, yeah.

26:28
Jmike
Because the CIA agent on the island, they go visit says his name a couple times.

26:33
Jesse
That's right. Yeah. I have a problem remembering characters names. It's like, it's always a big shock when you get to the tail end of the story and the. The American reveals his name is Bill.

26:44
Jmike
Right.

26:46
Jesse
Okay. I mean, he got him to call him something, but it's okay.

26:53
Jmike
Like Bob or something.

26:56
Case
Can we take a pause and talk about the American as a character for a second?

27:00
Jesse
What character?

27:01
Case
Yes, he is very much a. Well, what if Superman was an American agent character?

27:07
Jesse
It's spinning off from the Dark Knight Returns where Superman is basically a part of the military.

27:11
Case
Yeah. Or. Or doing like a super soldier, like the amalgam character, but here. And actually, I think that's like, very apt because it's a person given superpowers who serves the American machine for. For a while there until he ultimately breaks away. All right, so his powers are basic Superman powers. He's super strong, he's super fast, he can fly. He has heat vision. He is stronger than everyone. Aside from heavyweight. They establish that heavyweight's, like, raw power, is stronger than him. Icon is, like, somewhere kind of close. I dig his costume is what I'm trying to get at. Ultimately, I think it's pretty fucking cool. Yeah. The American costume is a mostly white bodysuit with a blue stripe on his. The right side of his body. And then, like, this, like, star pattern that comes out of it.

28:01
Jesse
That.

28:01
Case
That, by virtue of being in the white is. Is represented as negative space when it enters the blue. And I think that's actually really cool. Like, I think that design for a character who is a Superman type, doing this, like, blue, you know, white and blue costume, like, that's a pretty cool costume, especially of this era. Like, think about this being in the same era that, like, Apollo and the Midnighter were introduced.

28:25
Jesse
I was just thinking Apollo. It's Apollo taken one step further.

28:29
Case
Yeah. Like, it's a patriotic Apollo. And I. I think that it's really cool in that regard. I think that it's a really fun design for the character. You know, in terms of, like, what's going on with his background. Nothing. It's Captain America, but he's Superman. Like that. That's it. Yeah.

28:45
Jesse
We don't really get a lot of personal backstory, but there's, like, one moment where is it. Confusion, confused. The. The sort of psychic of the group. Like, connect with his brain, twists his brain for a second to show that he had a brother, and his brother died of a heroin overdose. And it's like a page. That's all the background you get, really, of the character. You don't get much else. You don't really know, likes, dislikes, personal interest. There's no downtime scenes. Yeah, I understand most with.

29:14
Case
With heavyweight, actually.

29:16
Jesse
Yeah. Oh, man. Heavyweight's a really.

29:19
Case
There's a whole issue about heavyweight.

29:22
Jesse
You kind of. It kind of feels like it. It. It's. That was done as. Mainly as more of a political statement than as just character development.

29:29
Case
Well, I was hoping, or at least I was thinking when this first came out, that the book was going to do issues that were dedicated to the members of the Enola Gay.

29:40
Jesse
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's. I feel like that's what would have happened had they gotten issue 7 through 12.

29:45
Case
Right. Basically. And so instead we just got this heavyweight issue, which. J. Mike. I don't mean to. How do I put this? Jesse and I are really white.

30:07
Jesse
It's okay. You can call us crackers. It's fine.

30:10
Case
So like the. The heavyweight issue is like, written by two Brits trying to be like, real about American, like, urban society. And like, it's bad.

30:24
Jmike
I mean, it's not like typical, like Japanese anime character bad. Like, they had the black characters, like the pink lips and everything. You're like, what is happening here?

30:33
Jesse
But like, yeah, that's. That's worse.

30:35
Jmike
That's worse. Hey, yo, what's going on? What you. Like? But like, but like, I. I kind of understood where they were coming from. Like, I'm kind of used to it, so it's kind of. It glosses over until you come back like an hour later. I'm like, wait a second, what was that about? But like, I.

30:55
Case
You can't just say I'm kind of used to it and, like, let that.

30:58
Jmike
Be like, the justification happened so much.

31:03
Case
Oh, Christ. I understand that. That is the truth. It doesn't make me, like, feel less, like, less uncomfortable with the whole situation.

31:13
Jmike
You're like, oh, man. Black kid, terrible community. Grew up with his mom and in the projects was like, no money. And the dad was like, around just to take money and abuse his mom. But he found his way by boxing. You're like, okay, cool. And then he got really good at boxing and he became a champion. And then he got even more of a champion. And his dad showed up one day and he beat the crap ever loving crap out of his dad in the alleyway. And then he got super soldiered and he goes back to his old community. And the kids are like, oh, man, this is so cool. You're that one guy who showed us how to get rich and lead the community. And he's like, yeah, that's me, kid. Until he meets the old.

31:55
Jmike
The older black guy who's sitting on the stairs like, I remember you. You were that knuckleheaded kid who used to run around here getting into trouble. Stop feeding these kids these lies.

32:04
Case
I was like, yeah, no, it is Mike Tyson as a. As a super soldier.

32:11
Jmike
Yeah, right there.

32:12
Jesse
Yeah. You know what the better version of this character's arc is? A train on the boys.

32:20
Jmike
Kinda.

32:21
Case
I wanna. I'm gonna let J. Mike, he had the pause there. And like, I don't know if I'm allowed to respond on, like, is that better or not? I. I don't know.

32:31
Jesse
Like, I. I'd say it. It's more in depth. It. You get a lot more.

32:37
Case
It's more in depth.

32:39
Jesse
That's the thing.

32:40
Case
Is that like, what is what, four seasons now that. That they've dealt with the character versus.

32:45
Jesse
Yeah.

32:46
Jmike
They set it up here like you were going to get more. So you were kind of, like, expecting more, but they cut it off at, like, him throwing money at the kids and getting his car and driving away. And the kids, like.

32:57
Jesse
Yeah.

32:58
Jmike
And.

33:00
Case
Right.

33:00
Jmike
I was like, okay, cool, we're gonna get more. No, that sucks.

33:06
Case
Christ. And it's rough because this is the character who ultimately is like, the one character who we can confirm actually is dead. Besides. Yeah.

33:16
Jesse
Oh, yeah. He's the one guy that doesn't survive. You can see it in the very end, the shield around them. Cut off his head. It's like, okay. Jesus.

33:25
Jmike
Like, wow. Him. And not the Manchester Black knockoff.

33:29
Jesse
So close.

33:31
Case
Other direction. Like, Manchester Black. Probably a knockoff of Burner, frankly.

33:37
Jmike
Oh, yeah.

33:40
Jesse
God.

33:42
Jmike
I was like, wow, this guy's really tried so hard to be Manchester Black. And I was like, wow, this is. Oh, this is getting kind of annoying now.

33:49
Case
All right. But apparently this came out first 35 minutes into this episode. But we should probably back up for those who are not familiar with what we're talking about, to at least, like, explain the structure of the first two issues, because we already are deeply into the second issue. And then, yeah, kind of go through the six issues that actually came out. So the miniseries, the series Class War, which came out initially in 2002 and then was completed in 2004, came out in two chunks of three issues and then three issues. So the first three issues. The first issue is the Superman type character realizing that shit is bad and that America has been the bad guys, and then stealing.

34:45
Case
Who is credited on Wikipedia as George W. Bush, but is just the president at the time and using his heat vision to brand the word liar into his forehead. That's basically what happens the first issue. The second issue is this, like, encounter with the. The member of the Enola gay heavyweight who is supposed to be like. Like Tyson, but with superpowers and is.

35:10
Jesse
Like a Luke Cage type of character.

35:13
Case
Yeah, sure. Balrog from. From Street Fighter, you know, like.

35:18
Jesse
Yeah, Balrog from Street Fighter. Yeah, you're right.

35:21
Case
And he's the protector of, like, the drug money that's, like, moving into the streets and so forth. So the Superman type character, the American has a really good fight with him. Like, a great fight that ends with a brutal, like, punching his jaw off sequence there.

35:41
Jesse
I think Garth Ennis would then parody in his comic book, the Pro. I don't know if you've read the Pro. He parodies that were a. If you Never read the Pro. I encourage you to do so. It's his take on Power Girl, which, by the way, it's coming back. Apparently they are doing new issues.

35:59
Case
Oh, really?

35:59
Jesse
Writing new issues? Yeah, I just, I talked to Jimmy Palmiotti at New York Comic Con last year. They're doing new issues. Yeah. So apparently she's a prostitute. That's why it's called the Pro. And she gets superpowers and she's one of the guys that she's servicing. One of the johns gets a little handsy and she doesn't realize it and she, I think, punches his jaw so hard his jaw flies off and it lands on a ledge. And the COVID of like the third issue is just that guy's jaw on the ledge. And down below you can see the cops taking him away to the ambulance. And the cop goes, I think you'll just have to learn to live without it. Can't find it. It's. Yeah, it's great comic. And this, the prequel miniseries is things I can't mention. It's the. Yeah, I can't mention it.

36:55
Case
Yeah. We'll have to talk about the Pro at some point, I might say. We should probably have someone who is femme identifying for that one.

37:06
Jesse
You could probably, you could probably get Jimmy and Amanda to jump on, like, they're always active on social media.

37:13
Case
Also a fair scenario.

37:14
Jesse
So we'll just get them.

37:15
Case
We'll see what happens. In terms of conversation about that, because the Pro is definitely one that we want to talk about. But let's keep talking about Class War, because I think that Class War is a fun series, even though it only ended up being six issues. So issue three picks up in.

37:33
Jesse
It's Glenara.

37:34
Case
Yeah, Glenara. So we deal with this whole thing about the American kind of remembering like the biggest fight he ever had prior to his fight with heavyweight, which is against a Russian superhuman who is. Is very Big Ben esque in terms of. If want to make the comparison with the Marvel Man, Miracle man scenario, it's.

37:56
Jesse
Russia's counterpoint to the American.

37:58
Case
Right. But the American is so much tougher and just whoops the. Out of him.

38:03
Jesse
It's, it's going into the idea that you're engaged in this conflict with this person. But the question is why? For what? For who? It's the soldier waking up and realizing that their commanding officer is actually the real enemy.

38:18
Case
Yeah. So which issue three is a bridge issue? And the only reason why it's worth us like spending much time talking about Is that the. The story arc is broken up weirdly with issue one through three, and then issue four through six. Issue three, like, the American and Isaac deal with, like, a spy. We. We deal with Icon, who is, like, their Wonder Woman equivalent character, talking about how, like, she can barely feel any kind of pleasure as she, like, random, like, Hollywood actors. Yeah, basically.

38:56
Jesse
Yeah, yeah. It's. It's. I got vibes of. I think Air Brubaker reused ideas from that character for his series Sleeper. The main character in that story can't feel any pain, so he. Yeah, it's. It's. She's an interesting character. I don't know if she's completely developed enough. Like we said, most of these characters don't actually get enough character. No, I mean, I understand it's a miniseries, but it really would have behooved them to just take a little time just to have one scene of that crew just kind of hanging out and just, like a downtime scene.

39:31
Case
Yeah, I mean, they use the shorthand of, like. Like, it's the superhero team and they're Justice League.

39:38
Jesse
They're not superheroes. They're super deterrents.

39:40
Case
Sure. Yes.

39:41
Jesse
That's the big twist. Yes, they're deterrents. They're not weapons. They're deterrence. Yeah. As a means of not making it sound less formidable.

39:51
Case
So issue. Well, and then the other big, like, plot thread is the introduction of then the, like, Nazi scientist who is going to, like, power up our. Our CIA agent type character and.

40:03
Jesse
Or, like, is he CIA? I felt like he was Secret Service.

40:06
Case
Like, he's Secret Service, like, in his final form. But, like, I don't know. He.

40:10
Jesse
He, like, that's a nebulous one.

40:13
Jmike
Yeah, Secret Service.

40:14
Case
Yeah. Yes, Secret Service. CIA is just, like, my default when I, like, talk about American spooks. But he's a spook. He's an American spook. Like, whatever he is.

40:25
Jesse
Guy in sunglasses with an earpiece.

40:27
Case
Yeah, no, we. We jump in art style, and it's, again, still good art. Like, I. I really don't want to, like, Bash Travel Foreman. Like, I think it's, like. I think it looks really good. It's just a very different style.

40:45
Jesse
It still has energy. It still has very good energy.

40:47
Case
Yeah, it has great energy. Just a very different style, but. But very cool energy of, like, the American, like, fighting planes. Like, we. We've got, like, more scenes of the Enola Gay being weird. We've got this whole, like, government program to like, set up the, like, the spook to be, like, superpowered and he's like, weirdly mean to the Nazi super scientists. And like, not that like the Nazi super scientist needs, like, to be nice, like you need to be nice to him, but where it's just like, oh, by the way, you thought that the first, like 400 of the patients were doing so as volunteers. They actually were lied to.

41:26
Jesse
Ha.

41:27
Case
And it's like, why were you being mean to the guy? Like, there's no point.

41:34
Jesse
I mean, it's, it's juvenile writing. It's like, oh, he was a Nazi. It's, you know, being mean to the Nazi. At this point in 2025, my response is, yeah, Nazis, sure, that's my response. But at the time when we're reading it, we're like, do you have to be addictive?

41:52
Case
Yeah, because the way he's being addict to him feels like, particularly like, oh, by the way, like, you're. You were so sensitive about everything. We like, spared you the details about, like, the victims that you like, assaulted in this whole situation. But, but actually, ha, you. Because your feelings matter. And so we're being a dick to you in that. In a way that your feelings matter.

42:18
Jmike
It was really, it was really weird writing for that.

42:21
Jesse
Yeah. Like we've said, this does feel a bit adolescent with its writing sometimes. Imagine, I mean, I know that Alan Moore doesn't like his Watchmen comic anymore. I know he's got as far away from superhero stuff as he possibly could. Imagine for a moment, the world where Alan Moore wrote this. How different is it?

42:44
Case
Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, oh man, it's the.

42:51
Jesse
Difference between a seasoned eloquent writer and a young, like, grunge artist, you know, like, this is a guy that's like popping on the scene. He even describes, I think, class war now reminds me of a rock band whose first album is all four chords, shouty aggression and irony free distortion. Totally true.

43:12
Case
Yeah, yeah. And like, I'm, I, I'm not trying to be negative about that fact. Like, it is purely the emotion of the time. That it was created in this hit at just the right time and is fun to revisit. But I'm curious. Like, again, going back to J Mike on this one, like you're visiting it in 2025. What did that. What was that experience? Like?

43:38
Jmike
I was, I was. Like we said earlier, like, a lot of the writing is very juvenile. He's like, he goes, like, he said he goes out of his way to be addicted to the guy. For no freaking reason. Like the guy has every opportunity to like mess up his experiment just to dick around with him back. But he's like, oh, you thought the people that were coming here or just for you? No, we told them they were testing out flu shots. Like the evil guy twirling his mustache. Like we are the right.

44:11
Jesse
It. Like walking into a room and seeing a big fat guy with a mustache chomping a cigar. It feels very cliche.

44:18
Jmike
Yeah. You're just like, okay, but now if.

44:21
Jesse
You look at it now it's like who's in charge of the United States government? It's Elon Musk. It's, it's, you know, it's these cigar chopping in behind closed doors. Like that's the cliche became a reality. It's so up weird. And reading this now, it's like, God damn. That's brings up another problem I have with the book. It's called Class War. Is there ever actually a real discussion of class and war in this?

44:54
Jmike
No.

44:54
Case
I mean I know where the name comes from. Cause it comes from class war.

45:00
Jesse
It's not really a class war. It's more of a revolution, or at least the beginnings of a revolution against the United States government.

45:07
Case
Yeah, no, that's a, that's an incredibly fair point.

45:11
Jesse
Like it there is called glassware. There is no class war.

45:15
Case
At most the. The character of the American is supposed to represent the American people against the hierarchy that pushes them into this like endless cycle of wars that were oh so aware of in 2002.

45:31
Jesse
Yeah. I feel like, I mean people had known prior to 911 the things the United States government was doing. Like the things the CIA was doing trafficking heroin and cocaine onto the streets of Los Angeles and New York.

45:49
Case
But talk about a wake up call.

45:52
Jesse
Oh yeah. It's like. Yeah, like. Or the prison system, the for profit prison system. The way that was tied into that. Like I just recently saw a report from. I can't remember who the guy is that runs it. He runs a company. The, the company's name. God damn. I just saw it today. It's the guy that runs the. One of the for profit private prison systems and he said everything is going fantastic. We're going to have the best uptick in our profit for this year. Oh, you mean you're going to imprison more people for crimes? Yeah, like I, I just. It that's.

46:24
Case
Or we're going to treat the prisoners worse.

46:26
Jesse
Like we're going to treat the prisoners Worse. Like that's where we're at this point. Like this. It's amazing how in 30 days you can undo 70 days of regulation. It's amazing how. Or 70 years of just regulations. It's amazing how you can just do that like that and no one's stopping them. And that's. That's. I think if you had released this today, it would be aggressive and angry. Like, he wouldn't have branded liar into the president's head. He would have just killed him.

46:50
Jmike
Yeah.

46:50
Jesse
He would have just straight up murdered him right there. Just dropped and be like, you. It would have been that, like the aggression that we're feeling today. Reading this now, I did feel like, wow, that. That is really pissed off and angry. And it. It did reflect how we felt appropriately after 9 11. Yeah. I mean, even though there was. That was the point where America kind of like split right down the middle. Half of us went to the side of full patriot, kill every motherfucker that's not us. And the other half were more reasonable and said, hey, did we do something to piss them off?

47:30
Case
And in a lot of ways, like, a lot of people went full patriot and then like bounced back once. It was sort of like, wait, this is going too far. Did. Are we the baddies?

47:42
Jesse
Yeah, it's that Mitchell and Webb bit. Are we the baddies?

47:47
Case
So I. I want to shout out. I want to shout out a video that like. Like this series just makes me think of, like non stop, which is. Lindsay Ellis did this great video on post 911 music probably about five years ago now. So it was like around like 2020.

48:02
Jesse
I think I've seen.

48:03
Case
Yeah. And a big chunk of it is like talking about it like American idiot. But, like, it's talking about like the music of like the post 911 era. And I think that there is a lot of similar sentiment where this is in response to the angry American, you know, like, they will put a boot up their ass.

48:24
Jesse
Stadium country music. Country music prior to 911 was anti establishment, anti American. It was not like the brusque patriotism you hear now. It was very the opposite. It was very much the opposite. It was your Willie Nelson's, your Johnny Cash. It was very much anti government in many ways. It was more about the individual having their full rights. And now you look at it where it is now, it's. It is completely off the rails. Oh, it's the opposite. It's like, who was it that sang it? Trump's inauguration. What's her name?

48:56
Case
Carrie Underwood. Which is so Frustrating.

49:00
Jesse
Oh, God. She. She later said. Yeah, I regret that. Oh, really? Did you give the money back?

49:05
Jmike
Looking at you.

49:06
Jesse
No.

49:06
Jmike
Nelly and everyone else who performed there.

49:08
Jesse
Yep. Oh, and Snoop Dogg was the biggest. Like, you, dude. Like, you are out. That was the most disappointing one to me. It's like, yeah, you're out, Snoop. Sorry. So. But yeah, like, after. After 911 is like all the music that changed all the film. The films that would come out.

49:28
Case
The. The911 ruined everything. Memes that would like, kind of like video games.

49:35
Jesse
Like, every video game. Brown and dusty. Pro military. Like, this is the Call of Duty era. Like, this is when Call of Duty went Modern Warfare.

49:45
Case
Oh, God.

49:46
Jesse
I have to look up the name.

49:49
Case
You know, the. Like the spiritual sequel. Or like, not spiritual, like the. The speed. The sequel, effectively, too many cooks.

49:57
Jesse
There's a sequel.

49:58
Case
It's not. Yes. It's called Final Deployment for Queen Battle Walkthrough. It starts off as a twitch, like, stream, like walkthrough of a video game. But it's. It goes from, like, the first level is fighting the aliens to the second level is the troops come home and have PTSD as a video game. And. And it's a twitch walkthrough of this video game. I'm gonna send the link to you right now because it's great.

50:33
Jesse
Please do. This sounds great. Oh, man.

50:36
Case
Because it is great. But it's kind of. We're kind of in the same ballpark of. Of that at the moment is as, I guess what we're getting at here.

50:46
Jesse
Oh, Lord. Yeah. We're all gonna have PTSD after this next four years. Oh, my God. Jesus Christ. Yeah, but. Yeah, that. Yeah, like this. This comic hitting at just that time where it was the 911 spirit of man. America's really not. The good guys are.

51:04
Case
No.

51:04
Jesse
And if you really break it down, any nation that establishes itself as an empire. Probably not the good guys. Well, probably not.

51:15
Case
But that's the thing, which is that the American empire has been extremely good at doing a thing that most empires do, which is that they relabel, like, their concept of war and their departments of war into departments of defense. And they say they have defensive wars. They have wars to protect their borders, they. Etc. And that these always end up with expanded borders or with new territories that. That we. We take over.

51:42
Jesse
It's not a war for territory. It's a border.

51:45
Case
Right. It is a protective thing. It's a police action.

51:49
Jesse
No, you're shooting people in a building. Okay. That's what you're doing. Damn it. Jesus. Yeah, it's. Yeah. The rebrand. The. The re. Jiggering of language for the sake of trying to make it appeal to American people. I. God, that makes me want to puke. Yeah, it really makes me want to puke. I hate it so much. It's just. Oh, God. Yeah, it's. That's. What. That's. If they were to ever bring this comic back, I doubt they ever will. I doubt Rob Williams would ever like. I mean, he's. He's successfully employed. He's doing well for himself. I don't think he's ever make a return.

52:25
Case
Want them to bring this back? Like, it.

52:29
Jesse
I could already.

52:32
Case
It was already feeling it when it came back in 2004, and that was only two years later, and, like, 20 years later, like, it's just gonna feel like a period piece.

52:45
Jesse
No, the way you do it is that you have it start out with America being completely destroyed. You start out when it's like, oh, the apocalypse happened in America. And it's. It's like. Did you guys watch that movie Civil War? That Alice maybe that I didn't like.

52:59
Case
I did not.

53:00
Jesse
But.

53:00
Case
But I'm familiar with it.

53:01
Jesse
Y. I. I did. I did not like it very much because, like, it's. It's an apolitical Civil War movie. How'd you accomplish that? So Nick Offerman plays the president in the movie. Guess what the president's name is.

53:15
Case
Just.

53:15
Jesse
Just the president.

53:18
Jmike
That's it.

53:19
Jesse
They didn't give him a name. They just said, oh, he's the president. What. What political party is he a part of? What are his beliefs? Like, they'll know. It's a Civil War movie where it doesn't make a point about the civil part anyways. The point I'm trying to make is if you were to ever bring this series back, have it started out with, like, the war is over, and it's just the American versus whatever's left. Like, everything's been leveled. Like, Washington, D.C. is a crater. Like, there's nothing left. That's where you'd pick it up. Because it. It ends in a point where the American and Isaac are gonna go off and they're gonna start a civil war. They're gonna go and start a war. That's where you'd pick it up. You pick it up after the war is over.

54:03
Jesse
Well, now what do we do?

54:04
Jmike
Well, I mean, I think Icon would have been on their side at the end of this, too, because, oh, yeah, she nearly got nuked.

54:12
Case
Or she ultimately, like, the.

54:14
Jesse
The holdout trying to decide which side she's gonna be a part of.

54:18
Jmike
We know who's not gonna be a part of the war when it happens.

54:21
Case
Yeah. Because I feel like Icon as a villain is more interesting here. Right?

54:28
Jesse
Icon. So Icon as a villain is interesting because she's the one woman in is. Is is confusion a woman or is a more of a non binary. Not at the time.

54:42
Case
Definitely a woman. At least in terms of like who was writing it and who was thinking about this. In terms of where we would be thinking about it today. Different conversation is coded with some non binary stuff going on.

54:56
Jesse
Yeah, yeah. So if for the sake of looking at it in 2025, we'll say icon is the only like woman of the team. As the only woman of the team, you can see that her outfit definitely fits a sort of misogynistic appeal that appeals to the male gaze. Like she wears high heels, like in a combat suit.

55:21
Case
Yeah. And like we have like male gizy sequences like with her, like sleeping with the Hollywood celebrity that is unnamed in there.

55:30
Jesse
Yeah. And her towel falls off and she's standing there naked and she just drops him into the pool below. It's like it. It definitely feels like she's very fed up with the system and yet she's drawn as if she's a part of the system. So I don't know. That feels, again, feels a little adolescent.

55:48
Case
Right? Yes. There's a lot of like the like, ooh, I am very intelligent here.

55:53
Jesse
Yeah. I'm so smart. So, yeah, just draw them like, you know, normal people. The one, the one sequence I always go back to when you try to portray like a woman and just like, just to be normal and not like be sexualized. Do you guys ever see the film adaptation of 1984?

56:14
Case
Oh, yeah. I haven't seen the like from start to finish, but I've seen like a lot of the movie.

56:20
Jesse
Well, the woman that's in the Julia character, when the two of them have sex and they hook up for the first time, they're just hanging out. She's just walking around naked and she hasn't shaved or anything and she's just walking around. It's like it's not sexualized at all. Like that's the way you portray women, just like, as normal people. Just like eh. Just just walking around. It's like it's. It's not that big a deal. You know, a lot of French films do that as well. British films like nudity and sexuality in European culture is Considered completely. Okay. You can see nudity on television all the time. They typically will cut around things like violence. They will cut around that stuff. That stuff's given more of a negative reception than sex and nudity because, hey, they're not oppressing their people in a very religious manner.

57:11
Jesse
So. Whereas we are over here.

57:13
Case
Right. Meanwhile, this is a comic where it is a titillating, like, a level of, like, cutting around the nudity in this whole thing, whereas the violence is.

57:22
Jesse
To get it into the American market.

57:24
Case
Whereas the violence in this is, like, given, like, full action, like splash pages, like.

57:29
Jesse
Yeah, yeah. I mean, literally punches a guy's jaw, right? Yeah. I, I do kind of wonder what the Garth Ennis version of this would have been. I'm just, like, mildly curious what it would have been. Like. Like, probably even angrier, I guess. I guess in some ways, I mean, we kind of get it with the boys a little bit in certain points with the Homelander backstory. Yeah.

57:52
Case
Like, I, I feel like it's so adjacent to the boys.

57:57
Jesse
Yeah.

57:59
Case
That really, it's just a matter of, like, the different art styles between, like, Derek Robertson and, like, you know, like, the team that worked on this.

58:09
Jesse
Yeah. That feels very much more specific and calculated where this just feels like young guys just sprinting for the finish.

58:19
Case
Yeah. And like, again, like, while they're not familiar with the Authority, supposedly when they were working on this, like, that's what was in America.

58:31
Jesse
American comics at the time were, Were received over there, but they weren't received constantly.

58:36
Case
I just mean, like, that's what was in the Zeitgeist, like the, the movement towards big screen style, kind of like widescreen effect, like, art style stuff is what, like where the Art Zeitgeist was going at the time. You know, like, comics in general were doing that regardless of specifically the Authority, which was like the, er, example of that in the mainstream at the moment. So, like, this is a comic that is doing widescreen action and it's political satire, but frankly, when it came out and the nature of it all and. And so forth, it probably was a little too subtle of a political satire that was going on. Yeah, like, it's a little too. Just like blunt and raw for where were all feeling at the time.

59:29
Jesse
I mean, you know, he even admits that. Rob Williams admits, like, yeah, it's a little naive and blunt and straightforward. He even admits it. Like, it's. He was his first thing. It was his first comic. So getting it. He was kind of getting some anger out of his system.

59:44
Case
Yeah.

59:45
Jesse
At the time. So it's like going back and listening to George Carlin's early albums, it's like you could see the seeds of what he's doing there, but it's not quite there. And then you get to like seven dirty words. It's like, there it is. There's the George Carlin I know. And then he just gets on and on, Better, better and better. And then towards the end of his career, his work kind of. It wasn't as good because his wife had passed away and he was just bitter and angry at the world. But if you really boil this down, the intentions are good. That to make a comic that was taking the Superman archetype and you know what it is.

01:00:30
Jesse
Remember when Zack Snyder said, what if Superman just like, said, hey, I'm just gonna rip the roof off the White House and just attack the President? Like, yeah, this is that same. Yeah, this is the thing that he promised in Batman v Superman and didn't do because he was out. Like, it's the thing that he said he was gonna do. And this actually did it. He literally rips the roof off the White House, goes in there, grabs the President and. And takes him up into the sky and threatens him to his face, like, what are you gonna do to stop me? Cause again, even a nuclear warhead at the end of this story doesn't kill the American. So for all we know, he's invincible. He can't be killed.

01:01:07
Jmike
Pisses him off.

01:01:08
Case
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the situation we're. We're in here. I mean, like, it's the, it's the interesting situation of this book where we have someone who's allowed to be a Superman level character and allowed to wage war with like, the American government and an American machine that is able to create characters like icon and the American and Jefferson, you know, so, you know, it's left as a.

01:01:40
Jesse
We'll.

01:01:40
Case
We'll see how this goes. Kind of like cliffhanger. But the American is apparently really tough. But we know that, like, at least from his own internal monologue, there are things that can defeat him that are out there and so he has to like, play his cards right in. In all these situations.

01:02:06
Jesse
Yeah, I mean, it. They do imply that the Jefferson character will rise up and essentially destroy the world. They. They confusion sees that future and sees like, Jefferson, like, trouncing through the streets as this mongoloid beastly monster. There's nothing the American can do to stop it. So you. I mean, I guess that's what they were building towards. I mean, who knows? It is a shame that Jefferson and the American never, ever cross paths.

01:02:41
Case
Yeah.

01:02:41
Jesse
That's the one big opportunity that they missed, is that. Well, but.

01:02:45
Case
But here's the real question about the entire series, which is this series better that it is unfinished?

01:02:53
Jesse
That's a hard one. I mean, like we've said, this does feel a bit. A bit juvenile. If it kept going and kept going into, like, juvenile stuff, I think we would feel less enthusiasm because we've been dunking on this thing a lot. I. I quite like it. It is good. Yeah.

01:03:10
Case
No, I. I like it a lot too. Like, that. That's the wild part about. About this series as a whole. Like, Class War gets a lot of, like, attention by virtue of the fact that it struck a chord exactly when it came out that resonated with people in general, because were all feeling a little weird about, like, post 9 11American brouhaha, and this seemed to be. We're doing a comic the way the good comics that are coming out right now are like. But it's about, like, your discomfort with America, and that's what came out. But again, I think even by the time that we're getting into the second half of its batch, it's already feeling a little bit weird. And it's just because it's been so many years and, like, I don't think it's a series that could stick the landing.

01:04:11
Case
And I think it's a series that, like, has this, like, legend associated with it because it's unfinished.

01:04:18
Jesse
Yeah, I. I could see both. I can see both angles. On the one hand, it does have this prestige level to it because it is unfinished. It ends in a place where, like, the American and Isaac, are they gonna go off and they're gonna live to fight another day? Like, they're gonna keep. Keep the fight going, like, in. Sort of inspiring to the. If he is a symbol of the American people, it's like, don't ever stop fighting. Don't ever stop. Don't ever stop. Don't ever give up against, you know, this twisted government that's taken over your country. But on the other hand, there is a part of me that's kind of like, you know what? Considering where we are right now and thi. This is essentially when it all boils down. It's a power fantasy.

01:05:02
Jesse
It's a power fantasy of what happens if Superman actually does the thing we want him to do. Take down the Real bad guys.

01:05:08
Case
So the question is, how far can you take that? Like issue one, he burns the President's head. The words liar.

01:05:17
Jesse
Yeah.

01:05:18
Case
How much further can you actually take that power fantasy is the question. But.

01:05:23
Jesse
And stick the landing.

01:05:24
Case
Like, can you stick the landing. Is this better? Because it only allowed for so many issues before, it was just sort of like, you know, unceremoniously, like, killed off, but it was killed off in a way that was like, you know, delayed over several years kind of process.

01:05:45
Jesse
Yeah. I think you can do, you could do a follow up that does take place years later. I, you, I, I think you could do it. It's just a matter of does anybody want to do it?

01:05:58
Case
Right.

01:05:58
Jesse
Because I'm sure Rob Williams doesn't want to do it. He would have done it.

01:06:02
Case
Oh, for sure. He's.

01:06:03
Jesse
He, yeah, he has control of this character and this brand and, you know, he's very well established as a writer now. He's doing just fine. He's working on Judge Dredd. He's just fine. I think now that we're in the middle of a literal class war right now in the United States, to the point where it's. I mean, we've always kind of been in one. Since the 1960s and 70s, we've always kind of been in one. Now in the last 30 days, we're recording us on February 16, 2025. The last 30 days has been a living nightmare, if you just to put it bluntly.

01:06:42
Jesse
And so when you really think about it, like, I, I could see a return to this just now that he's an experienced writer, you could come back to this and maybe put a little bit, smooth it out a bit, make it not so in your face, add a little bit more intrigue to it. Have it take place after Jefferson does his apocalyptic trounce through D.C. you know, kill off the characters you don't want to do anything with, bring back the ones you want to work with, and go from there. I, I could see both angles of, yeah, it's great because it was not finished. It has a prestige to it. But the other hand, it's like, hey, you kind of promised 12 issues and we're in the middle of a literal class war. Now's the time. So I, I could see both angles. So.

01:07:36
Jesse
But it's up to Rob Williams, and I don't think he wants to come back.

01:07:38
Case
Yeah.

01:07:39
Jesse
What do you think, J? Mike? Do you think, do you think this should come back?

01:07:43
Jmike
No. Like you guys said earlier, it gives it the mystique and of, like, oh, man, you know, what could have been. It's so cool that, you know, we have all these great ideas, but, like, it wasn't honestly going anywhere, to be fair. To be fair. It wasn't going a lot of places unless they, like you said, seriously rewrote a lot of things. Like, personally, I would take it, like, the Public Enemies route, where the President's kind of crazy and you've got the President. You've already got your crazy sidekick Metallo, and you could have American and Isaac going up against everybody else. And eventually Enola Gay comes to his side to help him out. But, like, you gotta have some kind of threat. That's not.

01:08:29
Case
I hated pairing in terms of reading Order this and then Public Enemies, the Superman, Batman, Jeff Loeb, Ed McGinnis, like, crossover book.

01:08:44
Jmike
You'd have to, like, that actually works.

01:08:47
Case
Really, really well in terms of just, like, general vibe of things. And, yeah, read this, then read that, and then you're in a good space.

01:09:00
Jmike
God bless America. God bless me.

01:09:02
Case
It's a fantasy that is the exact opposite of what is the current state of reality is the problem.

01:09:09
Jesse
Yeah, yeah. And that. That's. That's something I've been kind of feeling in the last 30 days, is I feel like at this point, the world doesn't need Superman right now. It needs the Punisher. That's kind of where we're at. After the. The CEO got shot, everyone was like, back in that Luigi guy. Everyone, like the entire country, well, majority of it at least, was like, yeah, that guy. That. That. That's awesome. Great. The excuse of why you should never do that is like, well, that guy had kids. And my response is, well, what about the millions of kids that got denied their health insurance so that guy could buy a yacht? It's like, that's where we're at. It's like, it's a complicated issue. I just. I saw after that shooting, a comics friend of mine, Joshua Dysart, who is an avowed pacifist. Avowed pacifist.

01:10:03
Jesse
Works with the World Food Program. He's worked with the United Nations. Even he put out a video on his YouTube channel saying, like, yeah, it kind of had to happen. Like, this is a pacifist saying this. And that's where. Where we've landed in. In the political zeitgeist is that the world doesn't really need Superman. You know, God help this Superman movie that's coming out in July.

01:10:28
Case
Yeah, I mean, like, that's sort of what my response to. To. To your Statements are at the moment of like, well, let, let's see how the Superman public. And in terms of, like, how we're, like, responding to the world.

01:10:45
Jesse
Yeah. I mean, it's still four. Was it five months away, as we've seen in the last 30 days? A lot could happen in 30 days. We'll see what happens in five months.

01:10:56
Case
Yeah. I mean, it certainly makes it complicated to talk about the Superman archetype and exist in a world where, like, anger is the power fantasy as a whole. Because again, when that's the situation in your first issue, you're breaking down the White House and burning the words liar into the president's foreheads. And where do you go from there? Becomes thin. The question. And like, yeah, you can fight superpowered Mike Tyson, but after that, like, where do you go after that? And there's only so much you can really do with the story.

01:11:36
Jesse
I mean, he did kind of write himself into a corner, I think the direction he should have done with the American. Had he got his 7 to issue 7 to 12, the American would step into the background and become more of a military general and would lead the public to rise up. It's like, I can only I can lead you. Yes, but it needs to be your choice to rise.

01:11:59
Case
So, like an inverted version of like the Dark Knight Returns.

01:12:03
Jesse
Yes. Like it, like, I, I, I'm here to lead you, but it has to be your choice to join me. It's like, I can't force change. You have to want it. And that's where we're at right now politically with the world is that we keep waiting for this one random person just to come out of the sky and just to rescue us from all these problems is not going to happen. It's not going to happen. It's like, you have to, the people of the nations around the world have to want to change. Like, these people that have, that are in power right now, they are just as fallible as everybody else. You know, they, as we've seen, they can also get taken down by a gunshot. It's, it's. You can take these people down. You don't, you can vote them out office.

01:12:54
Jesse
You can, you can disrupt their economic status. You can do a lot of things to change the world. And I think that's something that has been disappointing with a lot of the protesting that's been happening in the last, like, 10, 15 years. Like, the Occupy movement was a massive waste. That was such a disappointment to Me to a lot of people, because it.

01:13:16
Case
But it feels like it has similar energy to what this book had.

01:13:21
Jesse
Yeah. Felt like the public finally get. Just like, finally got it. Like, oh, they don't care. They don't care. Like, just recently, a couple days ago, I don't know if you guys heard this. The CEO of JP Morgan. The hell is that guy's name? Jamie Dimon. Was this. This audio leaked out? I don't know who leaked out. It's on YouTube. I'll try to find it. And he was basically screaming and ranting about people doing remote work, saying, like, oh, you're being lazy and you're not. Like, you're not doing your jobs. Like, are you serious? Are. Are you serious about people not coming to the office and just doing their work from home? Like, what. You're still making tons of money. Like, what is the problem? It's. If you want to get at this guy, there's another reason to get at this guy.

01:14:10
Jesse
But yeah, it's the fact that. That's also another thing that's kind of a problem in this comic. You don't see much of the American public.

01:14:19
Case
No, no. Again, that's.

01:14:21
Jesse
That's another issue I have.

01:14:23
Case
War issue. Doesn't really become a thing in. At all. Like, the. The classes aren't at war with each other, and so you're not really seeing the American public as. As a class.

01:14:36
Jmike
Maybe it would have happened in the last six episodes or last six issues. You never.

01:14:41
Case
That's true.

01:14:41
Jmike
He was working up to it.

01:14:44
Case
That's.

01:14:44
Jmike
That's.

01:14:44
Jesse
I. They. They say the American public is pissed, but it's represented in just. In just captions. It's never really, like, you don't see protests outside the White House or anything like that. It's like, we're told this. We're never shown it. So, yeah, it. Again, it feels like. Like a juvenile writing sometimes.

01:15:03
Case
Yeah.

01:15:04
Jesse
It's like I was like, oh, right, I forgot that there's supposed to be people in this book To.

01:15:09
Case
To a certain degree. Yeah. So it's. It's a complicated book to talk about because it is. Yeah, I think rather fun when you're reading it. And it has. It has the same vibe as American Idiot. The. The. Yeah, the album, like, and the. And the track specifically, and the musical. All of them. But. But it's. It's the same thing. It's that. That. That post, 9 11, like, man, like.

01:15:43
Jesse
All kind of, I'm gonna take down the man.

01:15:45
Case
Right.

01:15:45
Jesse
And.

01:15:46
Case
And so it's. It's Very much American Idiot, but. But a comic version of that. And it's cool in that regard, but it's not more complicated than that. In fact, it's arguably less complicated than what American Idiot, the. The total album ended up being. Especially when you get into the musical.

01:16:04
Jesse
American Idiot feels like it's poetry. This. This feels like it's. What is this?

01:16:10
Case
A log line?

01:16:11
Jesse
Yeah, a log line. There you go. Perfect.

01:16:14
Case
But. But I do really appreciate that and I. I really enjoy it. And it stuck with me. And like, Jesse, it stuck with you also, Like. Like, when you suggested talking about it, I was like, yeah, obviously we're going to talk about this at some point. And like, this was always a comic that was on my. My short list to talk about on here. And the fact that I never did, like a Superman analog thread about the American is kind of wild because, like, this is one of the characters that kind of just cemented with me where it's just like, yeah, Superman types, you know?

01:16:44
Jesse
Yeah.

01:16:44
Case
Yeah.

01:16:45
Jesse
This is actually. This is actually one of the first comics I actually picked up when I got back into comics in 2008 when they did the reprint of this. This is one of the first things I picked up. I picked up Alan Moore's From Hell was the first thing I picked up when I got back into comics, which, by the way, they found out who Jack the Ripper was. They just figured it out. That was. Yeah, it was some barber. It was just some guy. It's like all that work Alan Moore did. Sorry, man. Alan Moore just be sitting at home just like, smoking weed, being like all that work for nothing at a theory. It was wrong. I also picked up Garth Ennis's Preacher as my other. Yeah. And then Brian K. Vaughn's why the Last Man. I read.

01:17:32
Jesse
I burned through all those real quick. Yeah. Why the Last man is a comic that didn't age particularly well. That's one where I'm like, there's some stuff in here that.

01:17:40
Case
And that is why the adaptation didn't quite stick the landing.

01:17:44
Jesse
When I didn't watch it, I didn't. I heard it was bad. I was like, they tried to make that for like 15 years. And it comes out and it's like.

01:17:51
Case
I know. It just. It just lost the.

01:17:53
Jmike
Of.

01:17:53
Case
Lost the vigor and. And it was too late by the time it came out.

01:17:58
Jesse
Yeah.

01:18:00
Case
Anyway, again, things that are too late by the time they came out, when we get into, like, the first three issues came out perfectly for the series and then the back three. Oh, yeah, didn't. And Then more wouldn't be the right time anymore.

01:18:18
Jesse
Yeah. If you want a good companion piece to this. The Authority. Yeah, the Ellis Run. Or even the More. The, the Miller run. Which Miller runs. Okay. Another companion piece is Garth Ennis's 303. If you want to be more angry, that is probably Ennis at his angriest. That was for sure the most brutal thing he's ever written. I don't think he'll ever top that. Even Cross doesn't top that because it's about a fictional assassination of George Bush. And it's, yeah, you could never adapt that. That's, that's one you can never, ever adapt. Because considering we're going into a political administration where they're saying they're going to censor art now.

01:19:09
Jmike
Great.

01:19:10
Case
Yay.

01:19:11
Jesse
We'll see what we get. Great. The first thing that gets cut down when fascist dictatorships start up is creativity, artwork, expression. I gotta move out of here, man.

01:19:24
Case
I know. It's so bleak. Just like, discussing the future.

01:19:29
Jesse
I know. I, I, I, I know. Like I said, this is a downer episode. I know. If, if you were just looking for Superman stuff, this was not the episode for you.

01:19:37
Case
No, no. But hey, this is a good comic. It's a fun comic to read and feels like you're, like, doing, like, political work in your head, just at least like, thinking about America's roles for things and how it would, you know, interact with, like, superhumans and so forth. On that note, Jesse, thank you for bringing this comic. It's been a lot of fun to talk to you about it.

01:20:06
Jesse
You're welcome. I appreciate talking about this. This.

01:20:09
Case
Where can people find you and follow?

01:20:11
Jesse
You can find me on Blue sky at Hardcore B Shots. I'm also occasionally on Instagram reposting shit just for, like, the 20 people that care. So that's just my name on Instagram. I barely post on Facebook at this point. Because fuck Zuckerberg. X off of that, gone. Because fuck Musk. He's an asshole. President Musk. We can firmly state at this point that is not Donald Trump as the president. Musk is the president. That recent interview with him in the Oval Office when his son was like, you're not the president. You should leave. Where did he get that from? 3 year olds don't have an original thought in their head.

01:20:51
Case
Yeah, yeah.

01:20:52
Jesse
Welcome to fascism, folks. You're gonna be here a while.

01:20:55
Case
The wild part is that with podcast time, this episode's gonna come out in like, three months and, like, all of these references are gonna be like a little old and I, I hope they're antiquated, but like, I, I hope they're not timely references, frankly. Like, Jesus Christ.

01:21:14
Jesse
It's like every day it's like, oh, what do you do now, anywho?

01:21:19
Case
J Mike, where can people find you and follow you?

01:21:24
Jmike
You can find me over on the Blue Sky J5 Blue Sky Social. I am there mostly. I'm shutting down everything else because I'm kind of over social media this week.

01:21:36
Jesse
Right.

01:21:36
Case
That's how it feels. Like I can't, like, I'm not shutting down the social medias for anything else.

01:21:42
Jesse
You're not there very often, right?

01:21:44
Case
Exactly. Like, I go there to post the thing I need to post and then I move on. And like Blue Sky, I actually go to. Which is why you can find me on bluesky@ksaken, bsky social or whatever, the whole string that follows. Or go to our Discord server where we actually have like a really fun community that we're building there. There is a link on our website. All over the website you can find links. Come to our Discord server. It's a great time. Or find us on the blue ski. It. It's the best we're going to do at the moment. That, that's the honest truth. We're all really tired. This comic makes us really feel it, frankly.

01:22:26
Jesse
Yeah. Like I said, if you need some anger, get unleashed. Oh, another thing, I recommend Garth Ennis's Run of the Punisher. His Max line. If you want to see some CEOs get taken out, that's the one.

01:22:38
Case
See, that's that. That's the mood we're in tonight for everyone.

01:22:47
Jesse
Like just. We'll talk about a more positive one with the pro. Next time I'm on. We'll do that where we can talk about the eight hand. Hand job.

01:22:57
Case
Yep. Anyhow, Jesse, thank you again for coming on.

01:23:03
Jesse
You're welcome.

01:23:04
Case
We have a couple people that we need to thank who have joined the CPOV Media Patreon at the executive producer level. So these people get a shout out at the end of every episode of our shows. And so I wanted to thank Micah McCaw, Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, Lee Greger, Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Master, Piero, Casey and Nancy Aiken, Adam Sampter and Keith Letinen. So thank you so much to them for being at the executive producer level on our Patreon. But honestly, come join the Patreon because it's a good time. I am doing a lot of stuff for both paid members, but also for patrons at the free tier. So that's worth checking out and I would highly recommend it. Please do. And otherwise. Yeah. Thank you for all the patrons, everyone. Thank you for checking out the show.

01:23:55
Case
I would say check out. You know what? I'm just gonna. I'm gonna plug Movie Struck right now, which is our editor's podcast. She is awesome. Sophia is super cool and does a great job bringing awesome guests to talk about cool movies on her show, Movie Struck. So I'm plugging that one. And yeah, then circle back here to our next episode. But until then, stay super man.

01:24:29
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Ricciardi. Our logo is by Chris Bautista, and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our theme is by Jeff Moonan.

01:24:49
Case
Hey, Nerf herders.

01:24:50
Jesse
You sure you want to go with that?

01:24:52
Case
Hey, everyone.

01:24:54
Jesse
There we go. More inviting.

01:24:56
Case
Have you ever had a movie that you really wanted to love, but something holds you back?

01:25:00
Jesse
Or one that you did love in spite of a flaw?

01:25:03
Case
Well, I'm Kay Sake.

01:25:04
Jesse
And I'm Sam Alicea.

01:25:06
Case
And on another pass, we sit down with cool guests to look at movies. Movies that we find fascinating but flawed. And we try to imagine what could have been done when they were made to give them that little push.

01:25:17
Jesse
We're not experts. We just believe in criticism.

01:25:20
Case
Constructive criticism. Sure, come take another pass at some movies with us.

01:25:26
Jesse
And every now and then, we can celebrate movies that did it on their own, too.

01:25:30
Case
You can find us@ certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:25:34
Jesse
Pass it on.

01:25:39
Case
Cpov certainpov. Com.