Episode 150 - Super/Man: The Christopher Reeve Story with Ryan Luis Rodriguez

On this heartfelt installment of Men of Steel, Case and Jmike are joined by Ryan Luis Rodriguez (One Track Mind, Reels of Justice) to discuss the powerful documentary Super/Man: The Christopher Reeve Story. We reflect on Reeve’s legacy as both a performer and a real-life hero, unpack the emotional depth of the film, and celebrate the enduring impact of the Man of Steel.

Find Ryan at: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/one-track-mind-with-ryan-luis-rodriguez/id1431611476 and https://www.patreon.com/onetrackmindpodcast

#ChristopherReeve #Superman #SuperManDocumentary #MenOfSteelPod #ReelsOfJustice #OneTrackMind

SUBSCRIBE: Apple Podcasts • Spotify • iHeartRADIO • RSS

Notes

️ Episode Introduction & Guest Background (00:00 - 04:36)

• Episode 150 milestone celebration of Men of Steel podcast, marking significant achievement for hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson

• Ryan Luis Rodriguez joins as guest, known from Reels of Justice podcast where he serves as prosecutor/defender in fake movie court format

• Ryan's current 4-0 record on Reels of Justice, with upcoming Frozen 2 prosecution case

• Ryan also hosts One Track Mind podcast focusing on film through audio commentaries, featuring Case as previous guest

‍️ Personal Memories of Christopher Reeve's Accident (06:01 - 08:33)

• 1995 horseback riding accident deeply impacted all hosts as children - Case was 11, Jmike was 9, Ryan was 9 years old

• Case recalls watching news coverage at grandparents' house, vivid memories of the media coverage

• Jmike remembers his mother explaining 'Superman is paralyzed' while he was watching Superman animated series

• Ryan's emotional reaction as 'very feeling autistic child' to learning Superman would never walk again

Documentary Structure & Production Quality (31:52 - 37:15)

• 40 years of footage compiled into remarkably well-edited documentary that feels like 55 minutes despite being 1 hour 40 minutes

• Stone Christopher Reeve statue used as visual metaphor throughout, starting pristine then showing cracks from kryptonite after accident

• No narrator approach - uses interviews with children and friends to weave story together organically

• Documentary avoids being 'tragedy porn' while still being emotionally impactful

Christopher Reeve's Early Life & Career (12:35 - 48:44)

• Difficult relationship with father Arthur, described as 'douchebag' socialite poet who disapproved of Superman role

• Juilliard training alongside Robin Williams as roommates, establishing lifelong friendship

• Superman casting process involved auditioning 'everybody including the casting director's dentist' - Reeve wasn't obvious choice

• Arrogance during Superman production - some friction with cast/crew, though sources questioned

Superman Performance & Legacy (44:37 - 50:09)

• Transformational acting in famous scene where Clark almost reveals identity to Lois - complete physical and vocal transformation

• Instinctive banking during first flying scene showed natural acting choices that made role work

• Height and physical presence key factors, though not initially seen as obvious Superman type

️ Personal Relationships & Family (19:26 - 25:47)

• First relationship with Gae Exton, mother of his first two children, ended after Superman IV failure

• Walking away from family after Superman IV disappointment, described as blindsiding them

• Dana Reeve entered life after separation, not as 'homewrecker' but as supportive partner

• Strong relationships with theater community including Susan Sarandon, Whoopi Goldberg, Jeff Daniels

The Accident & Immediate Aftermath (09:56 - 38:42)

• May 1995 horseback riding accident during equestrian competition, paralyzed from neck down

• Life-threatening complications including potential suffocation from tubes, intense anxiety in early days

• Mental health struggles openly discussed, showing fears and adaptation process through rehabilitation

‍️ Dana Reeve's Role & Sacrifice (25:47 - 27:16)

• Incredible caretaker burden - being sole caregiver to paralyzed person described as 'herculean task'

• Transformative advocacy work - turned tragedy into hope for disabled community, advanced research funding

• Death from lung cancer at age 44 despite never smoking, tragically dying shortly after Christopher

• Will Reeves orphaned - lost both parents, overheard phone call about mother's death while pretending to sleep

Advocacy & Political Impact (25:47 - 40:15)

• 1996 Oscar appearance - standing ovation moment showing his continued cultural influence

• Stem cell research advocacy - became major political figure, worked with John Kerry on legislation

• Christopher Reeve Foundation continues work through his children, funding research that has helped people walk again

• Federal funding advancement for spinal injury research and surgical procedures

Robin Williams Connection (16:47 - 16:47)

• Juilliard roommates and lifelong close friends, surprising depth of relationship revealed

• Emotional documentary moment - suggestion that 'if Chris was still alive, Robin would be too'

• Mutual support system throughout both their careers and challenges

Superman Film Legacy (22:16 - 47:26)

• Superman IV personal project - Reeve wrote the story, making its failure particularly devastating

• Anti-nuclear message in Superman IV, though film was commercial failure

• Production challenges of original Superman films, including Salkinds' questionable business practices

• Salkind Clause in actor contracts resulted from producers splitting one movie into two without additional pay

Podcast Network Updates (55:58 - 57:26)

• Patreon launch at patreon.com/certainpovmedia covering Another Pass and Men of Steel productions

• Executive producers thanked: Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, Lee Greger, Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Mastropiero, Nancy and Casey Aiken, Adam Samtur, Keith Lehtinen

• New network shows: Long Live the Legion (Legion of Superheroes podcast) and We Have Issues (Keith Lehtinen's show)

Transcription

00:00
Ryan
This is quite an honor. I. I am just pleased as punch that you asked me to be on this episode because I remember I recommended this on Reels of Justice and I had tears in my eyes as I was actually reading it. And then when you came to me and you said, you want to discuss it on. On my show, I was like, fuck yeah, I do. Because I got. I got thoughts. I got lots of thoughts. And as we showed here, I didn't have that many thoughts.

00:29
Case
No, we had a solid hour of thoughts on this one.

00:31
Jmike
Lots of tears, lots of thoughts go hand in hand.

00:34
Ryan
Yeah, lots of digressions. That should definitely be cut.

01:08
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Jmike Folson.

01:15
Jmike
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show, Jmike.

01:19
Case
Can you believe it? This is episode 150.

01:22
Jmike
It feels like just yesterday were being made fun of for talking about Superman. Case. That's his.

01:31
Case
Yes. Nothing like spite to create a. To be the impetus for a podcast. Spite and a will to live and survive. And that is characteristic of the story of the man for whom many of us grew up believing was Superman. Because today we are discussing Super Slash man, the Christopher Reeve story. And to have that conversation, we are joined by Ryan Luis Rodriguez.

01:59
Ryan
I'm here to make fun of you guys for having a podcast about Superman.

02:04
Jmike
It wouldn't be the first.

02:06
Case
So, Ryan, thank you so much for coming back to the show. Where do people know you from?

02:11
Ryan
They probably know me from Reels of Justice. That a fake movie court podcast where we have a judge, a jury, a prosecutor and defender, and we try to determine if a movie is guilty of being a bad movie. Case has been on. God, I don't even know how many times. Three or four.

02:27
Case
Four. Four at the moment.

02:29
Ryan
Coming up.

02:30
Case
You're going to do five is coming up. I am, yeah. Frozen two. I am currently. And I'm just going to. I'm going to promote this one because I think podcast time means that this one, this might be coming out afterwards. But you know what?

02:43
Ryan
Fuck it. So in Case one, Frozen two, it was such a great moment for him.

02:52
Case
No, I'm four for four currently as of this recording. Specifically, when I came on to prosecute Conan the Barbarian, the Jason Momoa version, it felt like I was taking an easy win. And so now it's sort of set up the scenario that I'm trying more and more difficult ones. And so I am going on to prosecute Frozen 2 because my daughter loves this movie, and I have watched it way too many times, and I don't care for a lot of things about the movie. And so even though it's a Disney classic that millions of children adore and has fantastic music, I am going to take this movie down and time will tell. And it's very possible that listeners will be able to just go over to Reels of Justice subscribe as they should, because Ryan and the crew over there are fantastic and.

03:42
Case
And they'll be able to see if I am in fact, five for five.

03:44
Ryan
I think there's a good chance that you will be. I'm just saying I haven't rewatched the movie yet for the case, but I'm gonna say I'm kinda already on your side, so. Except it has the greatest song in the entire franchise. I will give it that.

03:57
Jmike
Well, I got a question then. What are you guys gonna do in five years when the live action remake comes out? Are you guys gonna revisit this?

04:05
Ryan
Oh, hell yes, we're gonna have to, because it's going to be controversial and we never shy away from the controversial, nerdy picks. So, yeah, we're definitely doing the live action Frozen. If we're doing Moana and we're doing Moana, then we're going to do Frozen for sure.

04:21
Jmike
Yes. I was going to say there is a live action one coming out. So you guys are that one too.

04:26
Ryan
Oh, yeah.

04:27
Jmike
Okay, good.

04:28
Case
Yeah. But suffice to say, Reels of Justice is a fantastic show. People should go check it out. You also have, of course, one track mind.

04:36
Ryan
Yes, I do. It's a podcast where we look at film through the prism of audio commentaries. Case is a loyal supporter of the show, and I'm always glad to have him holding up my back. And he's been on, I think, twice.

04:51
Case
Yep, I believe so.

04:52
Ryan
He did go in Greek. That was the first one. What was the second one?

04:56
Case
Oh, Batman. Oh, that's right.

04:58
Ryan
The 66 Batman.

04:59
Case
Yeah.

04:59
Ryan
Yeah. Great episodes. Absolutely.

05:01
Case
Yeah. But, yeah, so wonderful stuff. And so the. The running theme of it being movies and thus a connecting tie in to get us back onto the subject of today's episode, which is that we are discussing the. The Christopher Reeve documentary. The. And so this. This is gonna. Gonna get emotional at some points here. Like, I. I think that, you know, we're talking about a man who is one already deceased. Two had. Was. Was infamous for a. A terrible accident that beset him and the ramifications of that. And then three was also known for being like Superman, a superhero? Yeah.

05:44
Jmike
What do you mean?

05:45
Ryan
There's a 60% chance that I will cry during this podcast and I apologize if that happens.

05:50
Jmike
How would this ever be emotional case? It's not like we have very fresh memories of all this stuff happening in our lifetimes and we're very much there when it all happened and went down.

06:01
Case
Yeah, so that's an area like we should kind of start with like. So I, this is a, the biggest part of this because I, you know, like Reeve passed away much more recently but you know that at that point he had become a public figure for his advocacy. But you know, it was sad, but it was, you know, I'm not, It wasn't unexpected. Yeah, exactly. It was always like once the accident happened, it was always like, oh, like you're not sure how long he has had. Anyway, it felt like a ticking class pendulum. Yeah, but the accident, like the accident was this major moment that happened in our lifet was 11 at the time. And J. Mike, you were what, seven?

06:41
Ryan
Yeah, I was nine.

06:43
Case
Ryan, how old are nine? Yeah, so, yeah, so right in the middle between us. So like we all, all remember this. Like, like I, I remember being at my grandparents house and watching the news there. I don't know why specifically, but like watch. It wasn't like the first part of the story, you know, it wasn't like me being told that it happened. It was like, you know, once it had happened and me watching like more coverage of it. But I remember like, I remember that like very vividly. Jam. What are your memories of this?

07:16
Jmike
I remember my mom telling me about it because I was like, I was big into Superman, the animated show and everything. And then she was watching the news one day and she was like, oh my gosh, Superman is paralyzed. And I was like, what? And because you're, you understand what's going on, but it doesn't fully hit you until you get older. So you're like, oh, that's unfortunate. And your kid mine and like kind of gloss over it. You keep going, but not like actually sitting there and watching it and you're like, oh. And all the ramifications and the hearing, all the stuff that actually happened when they. From the accident until he got to the hospital. While he was there in the hospital, you're like, oh crap. That was a whole lot of stuff happening.

07:54
Case
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ryan, how about you? Like any specific memories about like when it.

08:00
Ryan
Yeah, I had, as I was telling you guys before we started recording, I Had never seen any of the Superman movies. I didn't actually see the first Superman until I was like. That's how, like, divorced I was from most pop culture that came up before I was born. I usually got to it very late, but even then I saw it on the news at my house, and it struck me with this idea of, I know who this guy is. I know who he played. I know his importance in popular culture. But all I really got out of it was, superman is never going to walk again. And that was something that devastated me as a very feeling autistic child. It is something that just resonated with me. And when they show the.

08:47
Ryan
The news footage in the documentary of all these different channels covering him going to the hospital and getting switched out for, like, rebreathers and all this stuff, and it just. It brought everything crashing home. And it hit me really emotionally, especially this time around.

09:05
Case
Yeah, the, like, the footage that they show that actually was of the time, like, the news coverage of it, like, really just, like, took me right back to that moment there. So, yeah, so we're gonna. We're gonna talk about the movie. We're kind of going to go through it. And thus it's sort of a conversation about, like, who Christopher Reeve was. The movie is structured in this way where, you know, they're using the available footage that they. They. They reference Reeves past career, like, but much of it through the lens of him, like, flashing back from his. His time, like, being paralyzed and reflecting on. On his. On his life, which I have to imagine happened from interviews that they got, like, you know, afterwards.

09:49
Ryan
Yeah, it definitely wasn't like what they did with the. The Val Kilmer documentary where they recreated his voice with AI. They definitely didn't do that here. This is definitely every single little sound bite you get from Christopher Reeve is genuine and comes from the actual man.

10:06
Case
Yeah. One thing I found fascinating just before we get into this is that the serendipity of some of his portrayals that happened in terms of getting footage to sort of emulate what. What's going on in. In his story. So, like, specifically, like, they have footage from, like, Rear Window, like the. The remake that he did where, like, he wakes up, like, paralyzed from the neck down. And so that they have. They have these dramatizations of. Of it that he's acting it out. And that's, like. That's, like, insane to think about.

10:37
Ryan
It's almost like they were planning a documentary from the very beginning, and they're just like, okay, well, we need to have him make this kind of movie so we can have this reaction. We need to have him make this kind of movie so we could do this. But it's just. It's happenstance that this is just how chronologically his life unfolded.

10:56
Case
Right. Just wild stuff. I. You know, and, like, also. Also coincidentally, and I don't think they used the footage or any footage from this because I believe he was like a. A paraplegic in this. But the. The exact role he did before. Before his accident, he was playing a person who had an accident and be was left as a par.

11:13
Jmike
We talked about it for a little bit.

11:15
Ryan
A little T of it.

11:16
Jmike
Yeah. Where he was. His thinking before his accident was like, oh, sure, I'm glad it's not gonna be me anytime, like, at all. Blah, blah. And then he reflected on it after the accident, and he was like, that was really, like, bad of me to think that way, because, like, one moment, one bad turn, one accent, and that's gonna be me.

11:38
Ryan
The amazing thing that I was kind of taken aback by is that they didn't use the clips of him from Smallville in any capacity, which is weird because that's a Superman show. And he played, I believe, Dr. Curtis Swan, if I remember correctly. And that was the one thing I was waiting for the entire documentary, and they never used it. And I was genuinely surprised by that.

12:02
Case
Yeah. I also was surprised that there was no use of that footage, just. Just because it would also be, you know, it's legacy. Part of this.

12:10
Jmike
Yeah, yeah.

12:10
Case
Part of. Part of the story of what he did coming out of it, or, you know, like, how he fought to be able to continue to be an actor even though that, like, so much of himself had been taken away from him. One thing I also appreciate about this movie is that it doesn't shy away from the more controversial aspects of Christopher Reeve. The fact that he was a human being who had decisions that weren't necessarily the best and comes from a background that has its own issues. You know, it opens with, like, a discussion of, like, Reeves dad and, like, who. I feel confident in using the phrase, could be described as a douchebag, like, just very hard. But, you know, this apparent socialite, like. Like, poet, I believe. Right.

13:00
Jmike
I think that's how it was. Like, poet. Arthur. Arthur. And something else. And how he was really hard on him. And it was really kind of, like, disappointing. When he said he took the role of Superman, I was like, oh, wow, that's.

13:13
Ryan
It's definitely not a hagiography. Like, it's not sitting there saying, and he was the greatest guy and he had the greatest life and everything was great and then everything went to shit. It's kind of like, no, he's a complicated person. He had multifacetets like we all do. And it never sits there and tries to glorify the man. They pay tribute to him, but they never sit there and go, but he was just the most perfect person on the face of the earth.

13:42
Case
Right? Yeah. And, and that, you know, some of that is good to support. Some of that is interesting to sort of see the reasons for, you know, like, I think some of the stories about like Christopher Reeve being arrogant during the production of the original Superman. Those stories like circle around and it's, it is interesting to see the other areas where, you know, he, it was a, a flawed human being and also kind of a daredevil, you know, Like I, I, I, I found it interesting where it's like, oh yeah, like while shooting Superman on weekends, he would just like go gliding.

14:19
Case
I'm like, yeah, no, that's, this is a man who I, I'm not saying that like, well, what did you expect in terms of like getting into horseback riding or anything like that, but like, he definitely put himself into situations that were, you know, more, you know, risky.

14:38
Ryan
The only thing more appropriate would be if they got footage of him leaning his head out of the plane as he's gliding, going, I'll never die.

14:44
Jmike
Yeah, I didn't find that one in that bag. I was like, okay, he must be getting inspiration for the whole flying thing. I was like, okay, I can definitely see him. I was like, it's risky. Never in my lifetime would I ever do that. But okay, he must be trying to get inspiration or something. Yeah, he was definitely like a live your life to the fullest type of person every five seconds.

15:09
Case
Yeah, like they got that great shot of him like shouting like carpet. Yeah, yeah. I also want to bring up like the, that it's interesting how much footage we actually got in this movie. You know, like there is a lot of behind the scenes footage that they're able to mine from and photos and.

15:28
Ryan
Just a whole mess of background materials that generally I've never seen. And I've watched all the documentaries on all the Superman movies on all those discs and there's a surprising amount of stuff that is just, was never disclosed until now. Yeah, like learning his relationship with Robin Williams, I think was the most surprising Thing to me, learning that they both went to Juilliard, which is just amazing. That Robin Williams went to Juilliard. That's the strangest thing in the world. But. Yeah. And then at the end. But the thing that killed me was. I forget who says it, but they said that if Kris was still alive, Robin would be too.

16:11
Jmike
Oh, yeah, that was gonna close the heavy bit.

16:15
Ryan
Oh, my God. Tears just streaming out of my eyes. I was a mess, utter mess.

16:21
Case
So I. I knew about the Robin Williams thing in terms of them being friends and roommates and. And the Juilliard stuff together. But, yeah, like, to. To. To. To show how close they are and then to, like, say that, man, that was. That, like, it was like, how. Wow, that is a lot to put on your audience.

16:41
Ryan
Yeah, yeah.

16:42
Jmike
Because I never knew they were that close. Like, I had seen interviews and things. A couple things here or there. They were, like, joking around like, oh, they must be friends. Like, everyone, like, in Hollywood has acquaintances and stuff, but I didn't know they were that close. And I was like, wow, this is pretty cool. Ish.

17:01
Case
Yeah, I. I knew that. And I. I feel like that was like one of those, like, just, like, Internet trivia bits, like a Cracked article or something.

17:07
Ryan
Five people who roomed with Robin Williams and Juliard. You'll never guess who number three is.

17:13
Case
But it might. I think it might have been like, the, like, five roommate situations or something like that. Because there's all the, like. Because there are, like, a lot of those, like, weird ones. Like what? Like Tommy Lee Jones and Al Gore.

17:24
Ryan
Well, that one makes sense. That one of you. Just think about it. It makes total sense. They're very similar people. Tommy Lee Jones has always looked like he was 95. Al Gore has always been terminally unhip. You know, it makes sense.

17:37
Case
Yeah.

17:37
Ryan
They rub off on each other.

17:39
Case
I loved seeing the interviews with. With Jeff Daniels.

17:43
Jmike
Yeah.

17:44
Case
About the casting process. It struck me when. When they're discussing, like, going out for Superman and stuff, where it's like, oh, man, Jeff Daniels was, like, a young actor with, like, both Christopher Reeve and William Hurts, and now they're both, like, gone. Like. And, you know, that's so weird to, like, think about, like, actors who are, like, are not in my mind as, like, old yet having to start facing, like, their friends dying off and both.

18:16
Ryan
Of whom have been in huge comic book franchise.

18:20
Case
Yes. Also that I was going to bring up that William Hurt saying, like, you're selling out. And then I'm like, but you're in the mcu. Motherfucker.

18:29
Jmike
I guess Chris gave him his go ahead. You're like, oh, if he can do it, I can definitely do it. Try this out too.

18:35
Ryan
What do I do? Put on a mustache and yell at a green thing? Yeah, sure, why not? Let's do it.

18:40
Case
Yeah. That was very fun. It gave me, like, fame flashbacks.

18:47
Ryan
There is.

18:47
Jmike
Yeah. I didn't know, like, it's always cool to see, like, people and, like, the people they come in contact with, but I didn't know so many people were so close to Christopher Reeve. It was like, the amount of. Like, the amount of circles that he was in his early access career.

19:04
Case
Yeah, because, like, his. His, like, publicity peaked in such a specific way, and then, you know, he never had anything that got anywhere near as big as Superman.

19:17
Jmike
You.

19:17
Case
You forget that he was a big part of theater scene. So all these actors, like Susan Sarandon or. Or Whoopi Goldberg, like, it's like, up. Yeah, all these. All these actors who, like, did a lot of stuff in New York. Yeah. They just all knew each other. They. They were all friends.

19:34
Ryan
They were super friends. Sorry, I had. Was just hanging there. I just had to.

19:41
Jmike
Yeah.

19:42
Case
And now, you know, I love that. I, like, I love this footage, and we've seen it before, but I love seeing the initial test footage with the. With Chris Reeve having, like, the giant, like, pit stains. It's always fun to see. What's, you know, less fun to see is the. The growing friction that Reeve has with his first, you know, partner, the mother of his. His first two children.

20:05
Jmike
Yeah, I didn't know about that.

20:08
Case
Yeah, so. So that I. Yeah, I had never really, like, paid much attention because, like, Dana Reeve is, like, so famous from, you know, being his caretaker and being, like, the. The person who, like, really, like, ran the. The Christopher Reef foundation and died never.

20:26
Jmike
Yeah.

20:27
Case
And died tragically. So, you know, so I never really, like, paid attention to the fact that, like, oh, he had multiple. Seth. Like, you know, multiple children from different. Different room. Didn't, you know, never really, like, paid attention to that part. I've just never really been that invested in. In his, like, whole history until. Until I was watching this movie. And this is an area where, like, it's where, yeah, he, like, has some of his. His limits. Like, you know, he. When. When Superman 4 was sort of like the. The nadir of his career that, you know, he just kind of walked away from his family. And that's, you know, frustrating to see because, you know, it didn't feel like. Kind of felt like, he blindsided them with that.

21:18
Ryan
Yeah. And it was such a personal movie to him too as well.

21:20
Jmike
Yeah.

21:21
Ryan
He wrote the story to it.

21:23
Case
Yeah.

21:24
Ryan
And to see that. That was his reaction to it was not only to be like, I'm never playing this character again, but, like, I gotta cut some people out of my life. That was kind of a surprise, right?

21:35
Case
Yeah. Especially like, you know, my hot take is like, I actually like Superman iv.

21:41
Ryan
It's better than Superman iii. I'll give it that. Because it has something to say.

21:48
Case
I feel like it's a Neptune Pluto situation where it can kind of like alternate, like, in terms of like, where. Which one's the worst in. In my mind. But like, it does have something to say and like, it does have good moments in that, like, for a long time. Like my like wallpaper was like the. The scene from the UN with Superman, like, walking out, like, triumphantly. Like, there is like a really like, optimistic message and it is Reeves message. So it's, you know, it's frustrating where, like, where reality hits its limits.

22:24
Ryan
Yeah.

22:24
Jmike
Can't believe, like you guys in Superman 4. I'll never forgive you for that one either case. Oh, the amount of movies cases make me watch.

22:37
Ryan
But you're still here and barely. That's what matters.

22:40
Jmike
You're still here.

22:41
Ryan
Almost.

22:42
Jmike
To find out.

22:44
Case
150 episodes in. We are still here. We are still going for it.

22:50
Jmike
Wonder Woman almost took me out. Those crazy Wonder Woman episodes.

22:55
Ryan
Oh, did you watch the ones where she's in World War II and then all of a sudden in season two, they're like, yeah, not anymore. Now she's in regular times and.

23:04
Jmike
Are we going to explain it?

23:05
Ryan
No.

23:06
Jmike
Her spy movie, the pilot. I was like, oh,

23:14
Ryan
She's like interrogating the guy that cloned Adolf Hitler. I remember that one quite memorably.

23:21
Case
Then we talked to the failed 60s pilot where she has weird delusions into a mirror.

23:27
Ryan
What about the David E. Kelly pilot? Oh, boy. Or she's a lawyer by day and Wonder Woman by night.

23:35
Jmike
Oh.

23:38
Case
Yeah. So we watched them all. We. We watch many things. We also watched this documentary to circle us back here. So let's. I want to talk about Dana Reef for a minute because I like, she's really cool. And like, one thing that this movie really hit home is that she was amazing.

23:58
Jmike
Yeah.

24:00
Case
Like that. This is a woman who stood by a man in what is incredibly hard. Like, I have been a caretaker for someone. In this case my grandfather, who was a senior citizen with dementia. And I was not alone in doing so, and it was very difficult. And. And that was still with a person who could move about, even if it was in a limited capacity, like, for the amount of care that you have to give to this person, like, that is, like, just an incredible load. And then to use it to. To create this transformative cause and to spearhead, like, using the tragedy here, but to turn that into a source of hope for so many people, to provide federal funding for research into these kinds of injuries to advance, like, the. What we have, like, the. The. The. The.

25:00
Case
The surgical procedures, the. You know, the. The recovery methods. Like, so much has. Has been advanced because of, yes, Christopher Reeve, but Dana Reeve really pushing that forward. And this movie really hammers home that, like. Like, she. She wasn't like a homewrecker. She. She came into his life after he had already separated and, you know, had a good relationship with the kids, had a good relationship with gay, and then took this on. And then it's so tragic the way she passes away, seemingly coincidentally, right after Christopher.

25:47
Ryan
Yeah. And of a disease that she did not fit the bill for. Like, she died of lung cancer, but she never smoked.

25:55
Jmike
Yeah.

25:56
Ryan
And it's one of those things. It's like it was a kind of death that is usually only relegated to certain types of behaviors, and she didn't exhibit those behaviors, and that was kind of, like, doubly insulting. It's like, first we're going to take Chris from you. Now we're going to take this woman who has done nothing but good for the past 20 years. Why? Why not? It's just one of those things that is just. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it hurts. It still hurts.

26:23
Jmike
I look back, and I was like, oh, man. She must have been. No, no. She was 44 when she died, and it was like, holy crap. And she was doing all of this, taking care of him all those years just for her to die of lung cancer spontaneously.

26:41
Case
Yeah. And then the. The impact on. On Williams, their son. I mean, the impact on everyone, but, like, specifically, like, for. For Will Reeves to lose both parents, become an orphan. So. Yeah.

26:57
Ryan
Oh, so hard.

26:59
Jmike
And, like, he was giving his, like, point of view from when they got the phone call. They came in, and he was pretending to be asleep, but heard them say that his mom had passed. And I was like, age case. Oh, God.

27:12
Case
Yeah.

27:12
Jmike
I didn't want to cry today, but I was like, oh, man. I could. I don't know what I would have done if I'd heard that. Had to have that phone call happen to me.

27:22
Ryan
I know I never would have recovered if that happened. If that happened. I mean, if that happens tomorrow. Both my parents are 70, so I've been prepared for it for a long time. But if this were 20 years ago, I would never recover. Just flat out wouldn't. And I know that for a fact.

27:39
Case
Yeah, it's something that unfortunately all too many people have had to deal with. But yeah, it's. It's a pain that, you know, I, I thankfully can only imagine, but it would be terrible. Now the children did step into the roles within the company and have taken. Taken a leadership role as a result and have continued to do incredible work using their father's legacy. So I. It is. It is a very impressive continuing foundation.

28:19
Jmike
It was because. It was. They said, like, because of him. They've used all those things to help people start walk or giving people the ability to walk through all the research and things they funded. And I was like, oh, wow. I didn't know that had happened. Like, I wasn't aware of the foundation, like, going that far and getting that. Being that active in that community anymore because you never really hear about it.

28:47
Case
Yeah, like one, like after the, like, the initial, like, launch of it, like, how often are you, like, really getting that in the news? Yeah, I do remember when it. When REEF started to have those, like, signs of improvement thanks to stem cells. That. And that was like, seeing it here, it felt like, oh, man, were so cheated of like, potential, like, further recovery. And it would have been miraculous recovery, you know, but like, not. Not from the vantage point of it, like at that point where he was like the. The evangelist for stem cells. I kind of forgot like, what the. The. The.

29:26
Jmike
That.

29:27
Case
That like south park used that as.

29:28
Ryan
Like a big parody episodes and. Yeah, one of the most offensive things I think they've ever done. And not like in a. Can you believe what they got away with, but in a way of like, now you're just being shitty. Like, now you're just. You're literally punching down and there's no reason to do that whatsoever.

29:48
Case
Yeah. Yeah, it gets into. It's. It also gets into like documentary has a lot more John Kerry than I expected it. And it's. It's amazing to think about, like, that window of like. Oh yeah, when. When the foundation was like, actually doing a lot of good. It. It did have this, like, public face. It did have, like, it was in. In like, in. In like political news.

30:18
Ryan
And if you've ever wanted to see John Kerry cry on camera, watch this movie. Yeah, because it happens. And I'm right there with him.

30:28
Jmike
Once again, I didn't know like this his circle of people was that big. Like, oh, I've met such and such. No, they were cool, but like, no, he was really that much of an impact on the lives of the people around him. And they really. Who loved and cared deeply for him.

30:47
Case
I have to say, I want to talk a little bit about the structure of this movie. I, I was very impressed with the overall editing, the way that they, like, they unfolded the story. Like the way that they introduce people. The way that, like, for example, I was doing a partial rewatch today before we got on and I was reflecting how, oh, it's really nice that they like set up the kids and then we get the interviews for the kids and then like, they save Gay for later because it's going to be more impactful for her story to like, come about at the time that it does. Like, if you, it's so if you weren't familiar with her, like, I wasn't. You're like, oh, wow. Oh, who's this person? And, and then like, it's Christopher Reeve himself who answers that question.

31:37
Ryan
It's remarkably well put together. And you got to consider, like, the fact that they had 40 years of footage to sift through. Some of it fictional, some of it just archival news programs, some of it interviews. It is a herculean task to put something like this together. And they must have been working on it for years because you look at somebody like Michael Moore, like his first two movies, it took him like three years to do both. And it's basically the entire time those movies are just him walking in front of a camera going, hey, isn't this silly? Hey, isn't America crazy for doing this? But here they have so much to comb through. And yet it does not feel like an hour and 40 minutes. It feels like 55 at the most.

32:24
Ryan
Like, it is a brisk watch for as emotionally punishing as it is, it passes by in an instant, which is really amazing considering how much had to be consolidated.

32:36
Case
Yeah, I mean, it's fortunate that they have the kids to use for interviews that I'm sure were structured in a way to provide the framework of this movie. There's no narrator in the movie, but they use the interviews as ways to sort of weave the story together. And so, yeah, like, I figure that the kids are like kind of the go tos where it's like the Last, the question where it's like, we just need you guys, we just need you to talk about this subject for a minute. And then. And you know, they get. They get something and then they use whatever happens to be the best bits. What did you guys think of.

33:15
Jmike
Oh, sorry, I was going to say the one part about all the interviews that tied them all together was that there throughout the movie, there is this image of like a stone Christopher Reeve floating in the universe. And like, how when he's going through, like, his. His upgrade and everything, like different cracks and things start to appear on the statue of Superman, but when he has his accident, there's this huge, like, line of kryptonite that goes. It starts at his neck and kind of like spreads down his entire spine. And like, kind of throughout the rest of the movie. Like, it sort of heals, but not completely, but like, it. The music gets to be more uplifting when it comes back on screen and it starts to like, rotate and move.

34:05
Jmike
And like, behind him, almost at the entire time of the movie, there's this huge constellation of like, red stars behind him that forms his cape. That's an awesome piece of storytelling right there.

34:17
Case
Thank you for bringing that up because that's exactly what I wanted to discuss. So, yeah, I thought that was a really cool visual thing to use, you know, kind of as B roll but kind of as storytelling. You know, like you pointed out, like, it's very evocative when the crack occurs. It's a way of showing when the accident happens, like the. This boom, this actual, like, injury kind of to it and the explosion of kryptonite out of it. And they could like, reposition and frame it and do. Do things like, you know, like you alluded to, like, putting it in front of the. The star field and playing like, the big bombastic music or doing like, close ups to show, like, when things are getting bad and the cracks are getting worse.

35:00
Case
I. I thought it was a really interesting device, you know, just to give this, like, narrative through line in the whole movie.

35:07
Ryan
And I love that they introduce it as something that is just there for the opening credits. Like, something just to visualize what you're going through and then uses it as a visual metaphor throughout, whereas most documentaries probably would have just saved it for the opening credits and then never gotten back to it.

35:24
Case
Right. And clearly, like, a lot of thought is going into how the story is being told. And like I said, there's no narrator in this, but they are using these augmented visual elements to give you very, like, sensory kind of responses, you know, again, we're talking about the cracks. We're talking. We're talking about the way the music really plays with it all. Like, if anything is trying to just, like, project onto you, like, feel this thing. The sequences with. With the statue are really, like, there for that.

36:01
Jmike
It kind of feels like it's its own, like, chapter by chapter, piece of, like, how different things that have affected the statue throughout his life.

36:09
Ryan
Oh, definitely. Yeah.

36:10
Jmike
Yeah. So it starts off, like, pristine, and then he starts being Superman. The music gets really bombastic. Like, the cape pops in. Like, it. It's an aerial view in space of. Around the statue. And then, like, when he has his accent, like I said, like, the first crack starts popping up, like, the side of the neck and it spreads. And I was like, oh, this is. I'm not gonna cry. Like, this is really. This is really intense. And it really. You said it really gets. You, like, feel this thing. Type of. Type of. Type of storytelling.

36:41
Case
Yeah, this is. This is a hard movie to watch in that regard. Like, it makes you really feel the pain and really feel for Reeve in those moments. It was.

37:00
Ryan
It does all that without being tragedy porn, too. Which is the most remarkable thing about it.

37:05
Jmike
Yeah.

37:06
Ryan
Is that it presents you a human story. It's not about, like, and then this terrible thing happened and then this one. Oh, my God, aren't we so traumatized by it? It lets things unfold the way that they naturally do. And really, it gets to you, but it doesn't. It doesn't pummel you into submission. Yeah.

37:27
Case
Really, the only spot where it kind of feels like that is right when it first, like, goes into the accident, and then it get. Goes into, like, the whole, like, the tubes could pop out and you could suffocate, which is a scene from Rear Window. But. And I'm wondering if it ever actually happened or if it was just his anxiety. But like, to talk about. To talk about the anxiety portion of it is interesting. Like, the. The. The fears that he had in those early days versus, like, how he, like, adapted to it through, like, through rehab and Thera. Like, that is, you know, that the mental health component is. Is something that I don't think, like, a documentary would have gone into 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, like, it just would have been like.

38:09
Case
And he rallied around his, you know, his iron will as Superman. Like, you know, it could have been.

38:15
Ryan
More propagandist in the wrong hands. And the way that it lands, it definitely. It benefits from the distance of time. Had this been made within three years of him dying, it definitely would have been a different story. But with the benefit of context and the benefit of hindsight, it makes it a more affecting and more true story.

38:42
Case
Yeah, certainly one that is more in touch with itself. Like. Yeah. Enable to show the strengths and the flaws and the things that are actually, like, really beautiful because of coming out of those flaws. You know, like, there's. There's certainly something to be said for, like, the. The. The. Like the disabled community's reaction to. To Reeve becoming an advocate only upon being injured himself. And I understand that point of view, but on the other hand, it is a transformational experience that actually, you know, coming from. From being sort of like, shall we say, like, it. I don't know, it kind of feels like a biblical thing, you know, like some, you know, like some prodigal son who, like, upon his, you know, being humbled, becomes this, like, you know, saintly.

39:38
Ryan
Figure brought low by the cosmos.

39:42
Jmike
Yeah.

39:44
Case
And it can't be discounted, like, the good that he did, like, you know, like. Like him going into. What was it, the Oscars, The. The year after his accident, like, that scene where, like, you know, there's this huge. Of, like, standing ovation for him. You know, it. That. It's this huge deal. Like, he. He had this presence and he had this cachet that he could have applied to. Like, he could have only applied it to so many things because of the nature of the accident, but he. He could direct it. Like, he. He could be this force magnifier for anyone who was trying to do good work in this space. Like, and that can't be. You know, that can't be denied. It's like.

40:27
Case
It's like the people who argue that, like, that, like, LeBron James, for example, is actually, like, underpaid because of, like, how important he is as a basketball player and as a sports figure and in terms of, like, the amount of revenue he actually generates, like, Reeve in it. Like, was that for specifically, like, this kind of activism? All right, so I feel like we have come through most of the documentary. Is there any, like, major thing that we haven't discussed? Ryan, you're our guest. Anything that you wanted to get to that we have not gone into?

41:06
Ryan
Can I bring up something that is not in the documentary that I wanted to discuss?

41:10
Case
Absolutely.

41:11
Ryan
When I saw in your notes of the portrayal of Superman and how that made him stand out from other portrayals. The TV show Supergirl, when it came out in 2015, for the entire first season, they kept Teasing Superman, appearing in the show, but they never showed his face or his body. He was always obscured or shot dirty, meaning shot out of focus in the background. And my thought was, the entire first season, when we finally see Superman, it needs to be Christopher Reeve, because he is the only Superman as far as I'm concerned. And then they didn't go in that direction with season two. Literally, immediately in season two, they have Tyler Hockner. Is that how you pronounce his last name?

41:59
Case
Yeah.

42:00
Ryan
Who's very good in the role. But I was just quite disappointed that it wasn't Christopher Reeve. Although the only way to do that would be to recreate him with cgi and look what happened in the Flash. Nobody was too happy about that, so we didn't do it. But for me, it was one of those things where it's like, it was kind of a missed opportunity. But I was really hoping that would come up in the documentary, because that show is incredibly reverent for the character, and the character is definitely inspired by his performance in those four movies.

42:34
Case
Yeah. I mean, we've talked about, at this point, all the Christopher Reeve Superman movies as individual episodes. And in fact, going back to the. The Christopher Reeve Superman movie was. The first one was episode three, I believe, of Men of Steel.

42:47
Ryan
What was episode one?

42:49
Case
Episode one was an introductory episode discussing. No, actually, no, I take it back, didn't. Wasn't episode one the Superman movie? And then we did Silver Ages number two, or did we do Silver Age as number one? Now I'm gonna have to look right now.

43:04
Jmike
Silver Age Superman was number one, and Superman movie was number two.

43:08
Ryan
Not bad.

43:09
Case
Yeah. Because I remember that, like, our first episode was us discussing, like, our general thoughts on Superman in a lot of ways. And at the time. At the. At the time, Jeff Moon was going to be more of a regular host as opposed to just a guest on the show. And so that. So. So we wanted to sort of, like, figure out, like, what our baseline of, like, Superman kind of thoughts were. Yeah. So we did Silver 8 Superman as number one, and then we did the Superman the movie as episode two.

43:35
Ryan
When did you do two?

43:38
Case
Two was a bit later, because when we got the show going, we wanted to make sure that we got episodes out for both Captain Marvel and Shazam. Okay, so. So episode three ended up being, like, a primer on Captain Marvel, who I consider a Superman analog. And so. So it made sense. And then we did, like, coverage of that movie. What's making me laugh.

44:07
Jmike
Yeah, we talked about that for a while. Too.

44:11
Case
Yeah. So it. So it was a while before we came back.

44:14
Ryan
How many did the Richard Donner set.

44:17
Case
We talked about both.

44:17
Ryan
Good.

44:18
Case
Yeah. So that was episode 27. So it. I mean, it. We have done pretty big gaps between like the series. And so it's fitting that. Yeah, so it's fitting that episode 150 is us doing then the documentary that's on like effectively the definitive Superman movie series.

44:37
Ryan
Yeah, like, we did Superman 3 and we did Superman Returns and I think there was like a year and a half in between.

44:44
Case
Yeah, yeah. I mean, which is fine. Like, it, like it's given us a chance to sort of revisit the franchise with fresh eyes as a. As opposed to just trying to like, cram it all into like, together.

44:55
Ryan
Right.

44:56
Case
And. And so it looking here, you know, it's. Reeve was so good in his role. Like, you know, they do the scene that everyone talks about from Superman 1 where he's like, ready to like, tell Lois and he like transforms like his body and like his posture. Like, he like stands upright and he start. His voice shifts and then like at that point he. He like realizes like, nope, never mind. And like he shifts back into Clark and like put. Puts his glasses back on and you can really hear in his voice, like just how different of a character he is. And like, you know, we've discussed that before, but it's. It's so nice circling back to that and just like adoring, you know, what an actor Reeve was like, what he brought to this role.

45:43
Case
Because like, when you like on paper, aside from the fact that he was tall, he wasn't necessarily the obvious Superman.

45:49
Ryan
Right. I mean, like, they auditioned everybody, including the casting director's dentist. So he was not. Nobody. Nobody went in that going get us a Christopher Reeve type. That was never part of the discussion. He just.

46:04
Case
Right.

46:04
Ryan
To emerge as the best. I mean, they wanted Robert Redford. They wanted so many different crazy people. They wanted Dustin Hoffman. Like, what? Oh, yeah.

46:16
Case
No, it's wild every time you look at like. I mean, we've talked about Superman both on this. And then on another pass we discussed like, went into like some of the backgrounds of the casting and all that, but it is a wild behind the scenes movie. Also, like, just to say this aloud because they don't go into that much coverage in this movie. The production of Superman 1 and 2 was like just need to say that part Just, just again. And if you're not clear on what I'm talking about, like, go on Wikipedia, look up the Salkheim clause.

46:52
Ryan
Yes.

46:52
Case
And start there. Start with a Three Musketeer. Yeah. So those are the people who produced this movie. And the reason they shot it, where they shot it was because they were wanted by Interpol in certain parts of the world.

47:06
Ryan
And now, from now on, ever since the Three Musketeers and the Four Musketeers were split from one movie into two, there is now, as Kay said, the Salkheim clause. In every actor's contract that makes sure that if you make two movies, you get paid for two movies.

47:26
Case
Because these were the kinds of people who just sort of tried to like, cut the. The sharpest of deals possible. It is rather wild. The. The only person who got paid on time regularly during the production of Superman and Superman 2 was the actor who played Non.

47:44
Ryan
Jack O'. Halloran.

47:45
Case
J. Yep. Jack O'. Halloran. Who. It was not only a giant, menacing, fucking terrifying human being, regularly speaking, he was also mobbed up as fuck. Like, the kind of person who could, like, walk or who could park wherever he wanted, not get any tickets, go wherever he wanted, because he was just well connected. And if you tried to threaten him like you were gonna die.

48:10
Ryan
He was the first person I'd ever heard talk shit about. Christopher Reeve on the Superman 3 episode of how did this Get Made? He's one of the special guests with Damon Lindelof, and he talks about how pompous and arrogant Superman, how Christopher he was. And I'm like, well, considering the source, I'll just have to take that with a grain of salt. Like, I'm sure he wasn't perfect, but I don't know if he's as bad as you're making me think he is.

48:37
Case
Yeah, I heard that episode too. And like, that. That's why I was like, you know, I've heard that Reeve was, like, kind of arrogant at the time, but. And I. I don't know. I. He's. He also strikes me as the kind of person who doesn't, like, give any bullshit. So I actually, like, kind of buy that take. But. But it's really funny. And like, the. The thing is, that kind of shit was just part of the production of Superman 1 and 2. It is rather insane that any of that got made. And Reef is a big part of why it ultimately worked. I mean, like, for example, it. Like, they talk about, like, when he goes flying for the first time and, like, he. Instinct banks. Exactly, yes. Like, and just as an acting choice right there. And like, oh, yeah, this is A.

49:23
Case
An incredible performance that made this. This role work when it really shouldn't have. When you get into it.

49:31
Ryan
Yeah, definitely.

49:33
Case
J. Mike, was there anything that you wanted to make sure that we addressed.

49:36
Jmike
We covered it. Like I said, I was. The thing that kept taking me out was like, they talk about, like, his early life. They take a break and talk about Superman, the movie. They come back and talk about, like, how it was after he had the accident, and then they talk about the movie again. But it was like the. To me, the most important part was like, the. I was most focused on the statue of Christopher Reeve in space. And I was like. And how they were using it to tell the actual story of what was going on with him.

50:10
Ryan
I just love that they were using footage from somewhere in time and Death Trap, which I think are his two other brilliant performances other than Superman.

50:20
Jmike
I think this is, like, this is so cool. Like you said, it's giving. Is paying reverence, but they're giving acknowledgment to the good that he did before and after it was ignored. Yeah, I was like, this is. That's really important for people to see.

50:40
Ryan
Like, he had to constantly prove, no, I'm not just Superman. I'm an actor. I went to Juilliard. I know my. And people are just like, sure, whatever you say. Go fly away, flyboy.

50:50
Jmike
Whatever you say, Superman. So it's kind of like how Charlton Hessen was either like Moses or like Ben Hur for everybody, but he did a lot of other stuff in between, like Plan the Apes and Tombstone. But, like, no one ever knows. Everyone's like, oh, snap. Is Moses.

51:14
Case
All right? So, Ryan, thank you so much for coming and for bringing this movie and for being our guest for episode 150.

51:23
Ryan
This is quite an honor. I am just pleased as punch that you asked me to be on this episode, because I remember I recommended this on Reels of Justice, and I had tears in my eyes as I was actually reading it. And then when you came to me and you said, you want to discuss it on. On my show, I was like, fuck, yeah, I do. Because I got. I got thoughts. I got lots of thoughts. And as we showed here, I didn't have that many thoughts.

51:52
Case
No, we had a solid hour of thoughts on this one.

51:54
Jmike
Lots of tears, lots of thoughts go hand in hand.

51:57
Case
Yeah.

51:58
Ryan
Lots of digressions that should definitely be cut.

52:05
Case
But, yeah. So once again, where can people find you? Follow you? What have you got going on?

52:10
Ryan
Well, you can find Reels of Justice eelsofjustice on Instagram. And unfortunately they're still on Twitter and Facebook. We have a great Facebook page with a. With a great. We frequently react to and conversate with our fans and our listeners, which is always fun. And then for One Track Mind, it's the Numeral One Track Mind podcast on Instagram, One Track Mind that is the O N E TrackMindSky Social. And you can find me on Facebook podchaser or send out or check out the Official Patreon page patreon.com OneTrackMindpodcast where you can get every episode a week early and uncut and commercial free. And you have 300 hours of bonus content, including every episode of the Coolness Chronicles and the Shirley Chronicles back when those were a thing. And now my dog is barking in the background and I'm sure everyone's going to hear it. It's delightful.

53:09
Case
It's all. Thank you. People should absolutely check out your stuff. People should say that Buster is a good dog regardless, because who's a good boy?

53:21
Ryan
He's no crypto. He's no crypto, but he's okay. We love him.

53:24
Case
Yeah, but yeah, no, people should check out both. Both One Track Mind and Reels. They're. They're great shows. Again, I've been on both and I've been a supporter of both. And, and then people should be paying attention to Reels for when I inevitably crush Frozen two. But then after that they should try to find us. J Mike, where can they find you and follow you?

53:47
Jmike
I've been trying to banish the other site as far away as possible.

53:53
Ryan
The site that shall not be named.

53:54
Jmike
Yeah, but you can find me over at J5 Bluesky Social. I'm over there looking at things, posting things, having fun, getting made fun of by Case. All the good stuff.

54:08
Case
I also. You could. The Discord.

54:11
Jmike
Oh, yeah. Also an art ministerial channel on Discord.

54:16
Case
Yeah, people should check out the Discord for certain pov. It's. It's fantastic. We have a ton of active channels going on right now. Movie discussions have been really active. We recently added sports, which has been taken over very heavily by the wrestling community. So that. That's been an active.

54:33
Jmike
You're asking for trouble with that.

54:36
Case
It's been very polite so far.

54:38
Jmike
Art chairs and be thrown.

54:42
Case
But on that note, you can find me at the Discord server. You can find me on the Bluesky at Case Aiken Bluesky Social. You can find me on Instagram @quetzalcoatl5 because I'm holding on to my AIM screen name for dear life. And those are the places you should find me. You can find the stuff that we are working on. J Mike, this is big news for everyone. We've got a Patreon.

55:05
Jmike
Oh my God.

55:07
Case
It's, it's finally launched. Because it was trying for a long time, were trying to be like, do we do another pass Patreon and a Minute of Steel. And as we decided now we're just going to do one. We're just going to do one that covers another pass Men of Steel and anything else that I happen to be working on. So. And we figured out how it all works. We. So we're good people should come support it. It's at, @patreon.com certainpov media and so what that is, it is covering things that are what are considered Certain POV productions as opposed to stuff that are part of the Certain POV podcast network. So things like Fun and Games for Matt and Jeff. That's a show that joined the network. That is not a thing that was produced by Certain pov.

55:50
Case
Another Pass and Men of Steel were produced by Certain pov. So that's the distinction right there, if anyone's kind of curious about that one. But we have a bunch of executive producer tier people that we need to thank. And so I would like to thank Carter Hout, Sean Muir, Lee Greger Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Master Fiero, Nancy and Casey Aiken, Adam Sampter and Keith Lettinen. These are wonderful people who are the first 10 to join. Now we do have a free tier now where you can get all kinds of cool stuff. We've got a bunch of essays that I've written so far as bonus content. We're going to get more content out there and we're going to try to have it at the very least premiere on the Patreon. But, but definitely to check out the essays I've been doing.

56:39
Case
I've been just like active in my brain and firing off thoughts about cool stuff. All of that is available even at the free tier. We'd love support on this one. Make the podcast better. That, that would be cool, right J Mike? That would be pretty cool. But yeah, aside from that, you should also. Oh, speaking of the Certain POV podcast network, we should also give some shout outs to the new shows that have joined the network because our friends Jim and Jay, who are big Legion of Superheroes fans, have launched Long Live the Legion. And that has become a show that was a Certain POV podcast as well as we have issues, which is Keith Letinen's podcast has joined certain pov, the podcast network.

57:26
Ryan
I love the way that you say that almost derisively. The podcast network.

57:32
Case
Podcast. It's certainly not derisively, as this is all my baby. These are all my babies. I love all the shows in the network. There are just certain shows that I'm directly paying for and that is the difference. Right?

57:48
Ryan
But seriously, of all your babies, there is that one baby that gives you the weird look and you got to go, damn that baby.

57:56
Case
Yeah. You know who you are. Ryan, thank you again for coming on. It's always a blast having you. I always feel like I want to make sure. Like I want to make sure that you think I'm cool because of the Coolness Chronicles. But no, like, I really appreciate having you come on. It's always a blast.

58:19
Ryan
It's always an honor to be here. I am here literally whenever I'll watch whatever crappy Wonder Woman TV movie you want me to watch. Doesn't matter to me.

58:31
Case
I think we're good on the Wonder Woman's at the moment. We. We did what, three months of it. It was an intense run. Anyway, we're getting loopy here. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you, J. Mike. Thank you, listeners. Thank you for being here for 150 episodes. It is so cool that we are going that long. We didn't realize that this was 150 until we actually were about to. To start the episode. But I can't think of a better topic for it. So this was great. And otherwise Stay super man.

59:19
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Ricciardi. Our logo is by Chris Bautista and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our theme is by Jeff Moonan.

59:39
Case
Video games are a unique medium. They can tell stories, immerse us in strange, fantastic worlds, blur the very boundaries of our reality. But at the end of the day, video games are fun. Whatever fun is to you. I'm Jeff Moonan. And I am Matt, AKA Stormageddon.

59:56
Jmike
And on Fun and Games, we talk.

59:58
Case
About the history, trends and community of video games. It's a celebration of all the games we play and all the fun we find within them. And there's so many more games out there, so we hope you'll share in that conversation with us. Fun and Games Podcast with Matt and Jeff. Find us on certpob.com com or wherever you get your podcast. And happy gaming. CPOV. Certainpov com.