Transmetropolitan Vol 1: Back on the Street - with Pat Edwards

Welcome to The Word From Tomorrow, a reread podcast diving into Transmetropolitan one volume at a time. Case and Keith are joined by Pat Edwards to begin at the beginning with Back on the Street, reintroducing Spider Jerusalem and laying the groundwork for a world that only gets wilder—and more relevant—from here.

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Edited by Case Aiken

Scored by Bret Eagleston

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Series Legacy: Trans Metropolitan is a 1997 cyberpunk series addressing political and social themes, highlighting artistic value despite creator controversies.

• Character Complexity: Protagonist Spider Jerusalem is a morally ambiguous antihero combining fame and violence to critique corruption and media influence.

• Worldbuilding Details: The series is rich with elements like advertisements and posthuman factions, showcasing immersive cyberpunk storytelling.

• Thematic Depth: Key arcs explore social unrest and identity through the lens of questionable leadership and media culture critiques.

• Cultural Impact: Spider Jerusalem is significant in comics, ranked #38 on Wizard Magazine's list, reflecting anti-establishment sentiments of the era.

• Engagement Discussion: The podcast encourages community conversations about art versus artist, ethical engagement with problematic works.

Notes

Series Context and Creator Background

The discussion framed Trans Metropolitan as a cyberpunk series with strong political and social themes, created by Warren Ellis and Derek Robertson starting in 1997 (00:00).

• Patrick Edwards highlighted Ellis’s controversial history involving coercion of women, impacting how audiences might engage with his work despite recognizing the series’ artistic value.

• The hosts emphasized the collaborative nature of comics, underscoring that many contributors beyond Ellis deserve recognition, enabling critical appreciation without ignoring problematic aspects (00:10).

• Derek Robertson’s role was noted as important, with a legacy including the Marvel Max line and co-creating The Boys, framing the series within the “British Invasion” of comics with edgy, provocative content (00:07).

• The series was contextualized as a pre-9/11 dystopian vision of a hyper-capitalist future, showing prescient political themes that still resonate today (00:31).

Character and Worldbuilding Strategy

The podcast detailed how the protagonist, Spider Jerusalem, embodies a complex antihero inspired by Hunter S. Thompson and early visual references to Alan Moore (00:02, 00:22).

• Spider is portrayed as a violent, abrasive journalist who leverages his fame to expose corruption but uses excessive force, creating a morally ambiguous figure that the creators seem to idolize despite his flaws (00:49, 01:33).

• The story’s world is richly layered with background details, such as advertisements, cloned humans, and posthuman factions like the Revived and Downloaded, exemplifying dense, immersive cyberpunk worldbuilding by Robertson (00:32, 00:34).

• This setting includes a mix of cartoonish and serious violence, with Spider’s actions swinging between comical and brutal, reflecting the chaotic tone of the series (00:27).

• Technological elements, such as the Maker device that can create almost anything and camera glasses, were noted as imaginative but sometimes quickly outdated by real-world tech advances, illustrating challenges in futuristic storytelling (00:30, 00:40).

Narrative and Thematic Developments

The first major story arc focused on Spider’s return to the city, his investigation of the Transient movement, and the subsequent riot, underscoring themes of social unrest and media influence (00:47).

• Spider’s exposure of police brutality during the Angel’s 8 riot successfully curtails violent suppression, demonstrating journalism’s power but also highlighting Spider’s violent contradictions, as he both assaults people and defends the oppressed (00:49, 01:01).

• The Transients, a genetically modified dissident group led by the morally dubious Fred Christ, are portrayed as a cult-like faction rather than a direct allegory for real-world transgender issues, avoiding overt social commentary while exploring themes of identity and belonging (00:44).

• The narrative balances critique of authority figures, including a corrupt, Nixon-like President "The Beast" who is broke and desperate, with Spider’s own anarchic, often crude methods (01:13).

• The series incorporates pervasive religious satire, mocking organized religion’s exploitation through scenes depicting multiple new cults and Spider’s irreverent “Jesus-like” rampages against charlatans (01:22).

• Reality TV and media culture are heavily lampooned through extended sequences, reflecting discomfort with modern entertainment’s rise and its impact on public discourse (01:14).

Character Dynamics and Supporting Cast

Spider’s growing fame leads to improved living conditions and the introduction of Shannon, his assistant and former stripper, who grounds the story by providing a foil to Spider’s chaotic personality (01:06).

• Shannon is depicted as highly capable and skeptical, quickly earning Spider’s reluctant respect and serving as a narrative device to explain and humanize complex situations (01:08).

• Spider’s mentorship of Shannon reflects his journalistic expertise but also his flaws, as their interactions mix professional insight with problematic behaviors like Spider greeting her naked (01:11, 01:25).

• Secondary characters like Shannon’s boyfriend Zhang, who undergoes increasing cybernetic augmentation, add to the cyberpunk atmosphere and foreshadow deeper plotlines about identity and transformation (01:15).

Tone, Style, and Cultural Impact

The series blends edgy, Gen X “edgelord” sensibilities with sharp social critique, resulting in a protagonist who is “right but an asshole,” embodying the era’s anti-establishment mood (00:50, 01:33).

• The hosts noted the tonal whiplash between Spider’s often cartoonish violence and moments of genuine brutality, reflecting a deliberate balance between entertainment and political commentary (00:27).

• The series was identified as part of a Vertigo/Helix-era trend of comics that embraced dark, cynical views of society with flawed, antihero leads, situating it within a significant historical publishing moment (00:51).

• Spider Jerusalem’s cultural standing was confirmed by his inclusion at #38 on Wizard Magazine’s Top 200 Comic Book Characters list, underscoring his lasting influence on the comic medium despite being less mainstream than icons like Batman or Wolverine (01:31).

• The hosts debated the creator-intent versus audience reception dynamic, recognizing that while Ellis and Robertson likely saw Spider as cool, modern readers might find him difficult to root for (01:33).

Media and Community Engagement

The podcast itself serves as a platform for deep, issue-by-issue analysis, filling a gap in coverage of the series and inviting listeners into a nuanced discussion of its artistic merits and ethical complexities (00:20).

• Guests and hosts promote their ongoing projects and social channels, fostering community interaction around comics and related media (01:38).

• The discussion reflects broader cultural conversations about separating art from artist, accountability, and how to engage with beloved but problematic works in a contemporary context (00:10).

Action items

Case Aiken

• Continue podcast series discussing subsequent six-issue arcs of Trans Metropolitan (00:00)

• Publicize and engage listeners to join Certain POV Discord for community discussion (01:40)

• Share collaboration and episodes of Men of Steel and other podcast/video content on social media (01:40)

Keith Latinen

• Manage Certain POV Discord for fan engagement and facilitate conversations on discussed content (01:40)

• Promote Certain POV comic book podcast and social channels (01:39)

Patrick Edwards

• Promote Storytellers Forge publishing projects and podcast (Stforge Podcast) via social platforms (01:39)

• Share forthcoming episodes featuring Tolkien expert interviews to wider audience (01:39)

Meeting Outline

️ Introduction and Setup (00:00 - 10:09)

• Introduction of podcast hosts Case Aiken and Keith Latinen, guest Pat Edwards, and overview of Trans Metropolitan comic series by Warren Ellis and Derek Robertson.

• Scope of the podcast: Re-reading and discussing the 60-issue series in chunks of six issues each episode.

️ Creators Background and Context (10:09 - 20:41)

• Discussion of artist Derek Robertson and his collaborations including The Boys and Marvel MAX work.

• Deep discussion on Warren Ellis’s misconduct allegations and how that impacts appreciation of his art.

Beginning of the First Story Arc (20:41 - 29:54)

• Detailed examination of the opening issues: Spider Jerusalem leaving his mountain hideaway, his introduction as a heavily tattooed, violent but justified anti-hero.

• Insight on tone swings between cartoonish and brutal violence.

Futuristic Technology and Worldbuilding (29:55 - 39:32)

• Exploration of the comic’s technology predictions versus real-world advancements (e.g., 2GB digital storage being a futuristic concept in 1997).

• Deep dive into futuristic culture items like 'makers' (3D printers), 'revivals' (cloned humans), and 'downloaded' consciousness.

️ Narrative Tension and Violence in the Angel’s 8 Riot (39:33 - 49:22)

• Discussion of Spider’s violent but complex actions during the Angel’s 8 riot and the police crackdown.

• Exploration of the portrayal of police brutality and manipulation, including fabricated police violence incidents.

Media Critique and Character Development (49:22 - 59:40)

• Spider’s rise in fame results in a cushier apartment and assignment of assistant Channon, a former stripper and bodyguard.

• Examination of Spider’s personality, his violent tendencies, and his complex moral code.

️ Religious Satire and Series Tone (59:41 - 01:10:08)

• Extended scene of Spider watching dystopian TV and call-in shows, highlighting social commentary on media consumption.

• Introduction of Channon’s boyfriend Zhang, whose augmentation and cyberpunk characteristics foreshadow future plotlines and conflicts.

Character Dynamics and Cultural Context (01:10:08 - 01:20:04)

• Description of Spider attending a chaotic religious convention and mocking religious charlatans.

• Exploration of religious themes and critique of organized religion through exaggerated characters and satire.

Final Reflections and Closing (01:20:04 - 01:30:07)

• Summary of Spider Jerusalem’s complex characterization as a flawed, iconoclastic figure.

• Final thoughts on the series’ relevance and legacy.

Key Takeaways

Trans Metropolitan Overview (00:00 - 29:54)

• Trans Metropolitan is a sharp commentary on politics, journalism, and dystopian futures framed through a cyberpunk lens.

• The main character, Spider Jerusalem, is a deliberately abrasive anti-hero inspired by Hunter S. Thompson’s gonzo journalism, portrayed with a balance of brutal violence and incisive wit.

️ Social and Political Critiques (39:33 - 01:10:08)

• The series blends cartoonish violence with real political and social critiques, including police brutality, corporate overreach, media manipulation, and religious exploitation.

• The portrayal of transients as a mutated community is handled carefully to avoid being an offensive allegory for transgender people but rather as a separate cult-like group.

Character Development (49:22 - 01:20:04)

• The introduction of supporting characters like assistant Channon adds depth and grounding to the series, giving Spider relational context.

• Religious satire and critiques in the series use extremity and humor to comment on organized institutional faith and its failings.

️ Cultural Relevance (01:20:04 - 01:42:06)

• Spider Jerusalem remains a divisive but iconic character representing a generation’s cultural and political edge, with lingering appeal but also dated sensibilities.

• The podcast sees this discussion as both a cultural revisit and media analysis, with plans to continue this episodically across the full 60 issues.

Transcription

00:00
Keith
Foreign.

00:09
Case
Hey everyone and welcome to the Word from Tomorrow podcast. I am Case Aiken and today I am joined by my co host, Keith Lehtinen.

00:17
Keith
Hello everybody.

00:19
Case
Hey Keith. We are also joined by Patrick Edwards.

00:23
Pat
Hi all my buddies.

00:25
Case
This is a Trans Metropolitan podcast. We are here to discuss the 60 issue series by Warren Ellison, Derek Robertson and a whole bunch of people. And I am really excited to dig back into the series and Keith and I are going to be on this journey. I have read the series before. Keith, you have not.

00:44
Keith
That is correct.

00:46
Case
And each episode we're going to have a guest like Pat who has read the series before.

00:49
Pat
Yeah, I've read. I want to say I've read the whole series before. I know I've read the first trade at least three times and it's. I can tell you that for sure the one we're here to talk about. I keep forgetting did I actually follow through and finish it or not? But I know I've read this reading. I remembered a lot from this one. This read through, it's like, oh yeah, I've definitely read this at least two other times. I've read this trade these first six issues.

01:16
Case
Yeah, yeah. So that's how we're breaking this up. So it's a 60 issue series on the DCU app. They have it broken down into 10 volumes, which is one of the ways that it was released. It was also released in. Because when you say the first trade, there was a trade that was just the first three. Three issues initially. Because that's the one I have.

01:33
Keith
Yeah.

01:34
Case
And then so it's like been re spaced a few times. So we're looking at it basically doing chunks of six issues every single episode. And yeah, the big reason is because I wanted to look at this comic again. I think it's a very prescient sci fi work that is dealing with politics in a setting that was supposed to be really over the top and out there then and now feels a little too on the nose.

01:59
Keith
Just a bit. Yeah, just a little. Little bit. Yeah.

02:03
Pat
It's something where. When I was reading it so high level that was really my thought was okay, I get it. But then I looked up when it was originally released, it's like, okay, dang futurist here.

02:18
Keith
I think it's interesting that this started pre 9 11.

02:21
Pat
Yes, well, yeah, it's 97, right. This is the first issue came out in 1997 which.

02:27
Keith
Wow.

02:27
Pat
If that. Can't believe how. Yeah, wow. This book is as old as Warren about. About give or take a year or two. Is about as old as Warren Ellis was when he wrote it.

02:40
Keith
Jesus.

02:42
Case
Yeah. So for those not familiar with Trans Metropolitan, here's sort of the high level explanation of what the series is. It's Hunter S. Thompson in a sci fi setting. The main character, Spider Jerusalem, is very much a Hunter S. Thompson xp.

03:01
Pat
I mean, it looks like. It looks like Hunter S. Thompson.

03:05
Case
Yes. Yeah, yeah.

03:06
Keith
Basically.

03:07
Case
Not solely like Hunter S. Thompson, but. But yes. And the character is very much written with that voice, which is interesting because I was not familiar with Hunter S. Thompson when I first read this comic. And as a result, Spider's voice doesn't sound like Hunter S. Thompson to me. Although on this reread I was trying to see if that voice made more sense in coming out of the character's mouth. And yeah, to certain degrees, maybe. Certainly the. Some of the things he says definitely makes sense. Coming in a Hunter S. Thompson style of like, come on, you fucking bastards.

03:40
Pat
Yeah, no, but I picture it. I have it pitched up a little bit more, right?

03:45
Case
He's like a little bit wiry or like he's a little bit smaller than Hunter was. Hunter was like close to six feet and like, it's supposed to be a fairly intimidating guy if you were actually like face to face with him, which is why he got away with some of the shit that he did. For those of you not familiar with Hunter S. Thompson, Hunter S. Thompson is the person who coined the phrase gonzo journalism.

04:07
Pat
He was a.

04:10
Case
Mostly a. He was a journalist working for Rolling Stones, amongst other publications, and doing a lot of books in the 60s and 70s for the most part. He's most famous for the book Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, which was supposed to be a coverage of a motorcycle convention and it turned into just, oh, by the way, we had a bender.

04:32
Pat
He, I mean, he basically listener was the modern archetype for the. What became a trope, a stereotype of like hard drinking, drug using, creative writer, artist, genius, who was the only one who could. Who could take the world and see it for what it was and tell it like it is. I would say there's. There's been a lot of characters in media that are evolutions or riffs on who he was in real life. The first person that comes to mind is Hank Moody from Californiacation character, kind of like a what if Hunter S. Thompson type was a Hollywood screenwriter and novelist.

05:14
Case
I would say there is a more famous Hunter S. Thompson XP in the form of the Great Gonzo from Muppets, which is Hunter Thompson. If he were a Muppet.

05:23
Keith
Amazing. Yeah.

05:24
Case
Now he's more personable, but he has an obsession with chickens, the way Hunter Thompson was obsessed with owls and is named after him and often dresses similarly, although that's been downplayed over the years.

05:38
Keith
I think the thing that jumped out at me, again, I'm approaching this as a new reader and listening to you guys talk about it. I'm sitting here listening and not talking much because I'm absorbing as much as I can. But one of the things, if you guys know anything about me, is journalism is incredibly important to me. So when Case pitched this to me, I had an idea of what this was about, and the idea of, like, this, of, like, journalism in general, and then approaching, obviously, from this Hunter S. Thompson angle, I thought that was really kind of cool. And obviously, we're going to talk about the book a bit in a bit. But, yeah, he's. He's an interesting character. I will say that.

06:18
Case
So, yeah, the show goes. Or the show. The comic goes out of its way to be like, man, no one likes this guy, but he is technically right.

06:27
Keith
Yeah, I do like that. Like, it's not in a style of. He is the good guy. They don't try to make him the good guy. Like, he's right, but he's also an asshole. Okay, so.

06:42
Pat
Okay, you all just.

06:42
Keith
You.

06:43
Case
So.

06:43
Pat
So it's funny because you both just. You said it in so many words. Exactly. But while I was reading it this time around, there is a quote from another very famous movie that kept playing over and over in my head is Big Lebowski to Walt. He's like, you're not wrong. You're just an asshole.

07:02
Keith
Yes, exactly. Yeah, 100%. And it's interesting. Yeah, we'll get into it. I won't jump into it right now, but yeah.

07:15
Case
Yeah. So before we actually get into the first six issues, which is the main thrust of this episode, we should talk a little bit about our backgrounds with it. Keith, you've already mentioned that you don't have much background with the comic, but we should talk about the backgrounds with the creators. So I'll start off with the easier one to talk about Derek Robertson, who is just a delightful person, and I've interviewed him before for Men of Steel, my Superman podcast so obviously can't be super unbiased for people that we like as individuals. So I'm not going to pretend that this is coming from a. Like, we're going to dissect in the meanest of ways. I've got. I've got Some biases, I guess what I'm saying here.

08:03
Keith
Right. I'm a fan of Derek Robertson's work. There's me and Case talk about it. I have like little niche moments in comics that always seem to come up for some reason. Derek did. Was it Justice League Europe run, like a brief run that I really liked. Yeah. It was just the Europe because he did it with JMD Matthias and that was the first time like that he was really on my radar. But then I've always really kind enjoyed his work. Not an artist. I think of a lot doing modern comics because obviously my per view is modern comics. He doesn't come up as much, but when he does, I always enjoy it.

08:43
Pat
I was unaware that how. How many things Derek had worked on, like the one that jumps out to me is obviously the boys. I think of Gardenas first and foremost. I didn't realize he was a co. He's. He's credited as co creator of that with. With Garth. I read that. I'm looking at other stuff he's done. I think he did the Punisher run with Garth too.

09:08
Keith
Yeah, yeah. He was a big part of Marvel Max early on too. And so that was one of the big things was he did a lot of work on Marvel Max. I think that's where he actually. He worked with Garth Ennison there, I think. Oh, on the Fury book. Yeah, the Nick Fury book. Yeah.

09:28
Pat
Between doing like the Boys with Enos and like Trans with. With Ellis. It's. He's just like collecting Edgelord Infinity Stones.

09:37
Keith
Yes. Yeah. 100%.

09:41
Case
Yeah. And that. That happens when you. When you link up with the British invasion. Like you're gonna just get bounced around for. For all these. All these people who have. Yeah, like you said, edgelord Infinity Stones.

09:52
Keith
It's kind of perfect.

09:53
Case
It's nice with Ennis and Ellis where it's both. E Plank is.

09:59
Keith
Yeah.

10:00
Pat
And so that's. I mean, you know, I've read. I've obviously read things Derek has worked on, but less aware of him as a person. I think for good reason. That's a good thing. Because when you're talking Ellis, obviously we need to address that.

10:15
Case
Yeah. So why don't we move to that one? And Ellis is the more controversial figure. So Ellis is a prolific comic writer who's written a ton of stuff. I love a ton of stuff that a lot of people love. But it came out around 2020 that he had used his position of both power and fame as a way to coerce many women into sexual relationships with him. Under the promise of advancing their careers and then not doing so. Not that necessarily makes it better if he.

10:46
Keith
If he did follow through.

10:47
Case
Yeah. Like, yeah, it's.

10:49
Pat
It's fucked up and gross either way.

10:50
Case
Yeah.

10:51
Pat
Yeah.

10:52
Case
It's somehow worse.

10:54
Keith
Yeah, yeah. And obviously we want to bring it up at the beginning, before we even get started, because it's a serious thing. There's a lot of people affected by it, and we are in a time. Me and Case were talking before we started, where there's a lot of people who made things we love that we have to have complicated relationships with now. And it shouldn't prevent us from talking about the art, but we have to acknowledge who the artist is.

11:26
Case
Right?

11:27
Keith
Yeah.

11:28
Case
Yeah. I mean, and, you know, it's one of those where I don't think he crossed the line of being fully canceled. And that's why we're able to do this comic series. Like, I think he's skirting it. Like, certainly my interest in his work afterwards dwindled. But there's a lot of material, I think that's really worthwhile. I think he was revolutionary in a lot of ways. And I think this series gets under. Talked about because of Warren Ellis's shit these days. Like, I feel like there's a gap in the conversation about Trans Metropolitan.

12:08
Pat
Yeah. But I'm so. Okay. So it's tricky in that something like this series, there are. You get a few names a lot of times, maybe just one name that are kind of like the name behind it. Right. But in this case. Right. You've got Derek Robertson as well. You've got many artists. It's something like this. I say with things like music, I.

12:37
Case
So.

12:37
Pat
So I'm someone. The older I'm getting, I am very much less and less every day. Down with separating art from artists. I'm like, nope, they're one of those. They are. They are who they are. I can't do it. I can't listen to artists, like on music, for example.

12:56
Keith
Right.

12:56
Pat
That have been revealed to be whose music I used to like two R B, Very popular, very famous. R. Kelly and Chris Brown. I can't. I used to love their music and I can't listen to it at all because they're both terrible people. And so in a lot of ways, that applies to media as well. So.

13:19
Keith
Yeah.

13:20
Pat
Yeah.

13:21
Keith
So.

13:23
Pat
Warren Ellis sucks as a person, it turns out. You know, we talk about this book and what it means, but, yeah. That this is something you got. There's no getting around it. Warren Ellis, as it turns out, seems to really not be a good person, good dude.

13:45
Keith
And I think it's. Comics are such a collaborative media, right? Like there's artists, there's editors, there's letters, there's colorists, there's cover artists, there's all kinds of people involved and there's a lot of people who deserve to have their work looked at and appraised critically. That's why I think we can do this. One of the reasons we can do a show like this is because we can acknowledge the problematic aspect of this. But also there's a lot of stuff to celebrate here. There's a lot of people to celebrate. I think that's important too. A little different than like say a Chris Brown who I also used to like. It's like, it's just Chris Brown, you know what I mean? Like he's, it's very easy to cut him out.

14:23
Keith
And then also, just because I have this opinion, just because someone's problematic doesn't mean we shouldn't look at their work critically. You know what I mean? It still needs to be analyzed and I think that's an important aspect of it. But yeah, I agree with you. Like it's weird, you know what I mean? It's a weird thing now to, I mean we're all older guys, you know what I mean? Like we're all middle aged dudes. Like we, a lot of people who grew up with have disappointed us thoroughly, not to mention any names. So. Yeah, but again, we don't want to make this the Warren Ellis podcast. You know, that's what, that's not what this is about. So. But we want to make sure we address that up front, you know, so.

15:02
Pat
You'Re talking to someone who I am a writer and didn't really introduce and I co own a small indie publishing studio, but actually was basically involved in a project that is either going to be fully shelved or completely restarted, rewritten and reformed like a page one because it was going to be tied to and get a forward from Neil Gaiman and that has been completely AED and next. And it's either going to be, it's going to be either completely sort of full renovation to have no connection whatsoever or you know, and, and it's gonna, it basically. Yeah, because it's like, nope, no, thank you, we don't want that. No, no thank you, we don't want that forward. We do not need to be associated or want to be associated with you. So. But yeah, it's something where, you know, you got to do.

15:59
Pat
You got. At the end of the day, I get you. Well, I refuse to like, you know, I'll take a bath on labor spent or money spent on production of something if it's the right thing to do. I'm not, I can't not. You know what I mean?

16:15
Keith
I just, I get you. Yeah.

16:17
Case
I think what it comes down to is that there are dicks and there are. And like I like Warren Ellis, like is famous for writing dicks. And it just turns out that he, his personal behavior was like that than anyone expected. Meanwhile, Neil Gaiman is an asshole.

16:36
Keith
Monumentally. Yeah. Yeah.

16:40
Case
And it sucks for both of them because both of them like drape themselves in progressive politics in a way that it becomes more depressing because it is a betrayal.

16:53
Keith
Like a Joss Whedon. Yeah. Like, yeah, yeah.

16:57
Pat
And then, you know, it's, yeah, that is in people who. We really got derailed here. But no, it's important. It is, it's important. It needs to be addressed. But like, yeah, so people, I get really worked up about that as you can tell, you know, because there are people who have very regressive and bigoted beliefs. Right. We have weight. There's way too. You know, there are people who are misogynistic and racist and xenophobic and homophobic and transphobic and they wear it on their sleeve and that sucks. And those people are shitty. Right?

17:39
Keith
Yeah.

17:40
Pat
But there's another level of insidiousness for people like these. There was men. It's always men. Let's be real. And we've mentioned who know better and know like will put up this front or say all the right things and be self identified feminists but then be absolute monsters in real life. Again, again, I won't name, I'm not going to names this time but again, somebody who I am, somebody who in my career has run afoul and been, you know, not personally victimized, professionally victimized by people who do that same thing, who did all the right things and said all the right things and had all the right little, you know, sort of progressive flags and their, you know, online handles and bios and then turn out to be very predatory people behind the scenes in real life.

18:38
Pat
And that will always feel so, like such a, just so vile because it's like, you know, better like you know enough to what you're, what the right thing is supposed to be. And you're choosing not. You know what I mean? You're. You're choosing, you know, enough to say the things that you. You know, not. Because as it turns out, you don't actually believe that, but, you know, you're supposed to say that, or you feel like it's supposed to be the right thing to say that, or have these public values that you don't actually have.

19:19
Keith
Yeah. And to be clear, again, we don't want to make this all about him, but there. There is. There is a bit of a difference between what happened with him and what happened with some of the other gentlemen we're talking about. So I want to be clear. And also, this isn't a legal matter, so I. We're not speaking any kind of legal behalf. This was never made into a legal matter. No one brought him to court for any, you know, purposes or anything like that. And if you would like more information, go to somanyofus.com is what I'll tell you. They. This has been an ongoing thing between the women involved and. And Warren Ellis, and there's updates on there. I read through the whole website last night. It was really great. So just check it out there. I think.

20:06
Keith
I think that's probably a good way to, like, leave it out, let people read it for themselves and understand what happened. Because, again, we don't want to make. This isn't a drama podcast. You know what I mean? So, yeah.

20:17
Case
I mean, there's plenty of drama for us to talk about in the actual text that we're going to.

20:20
Pat
We can get into the book, but I feel like that would be. It would be irresponsible to not address that 100% in this first episode.

20:28
Keith
Yeah, no. 100%.

20:30
Case
Yeah. I mean, I. I would say, like, this, as a podcast, is something that I saw as both a thing I wanted to experience, because I wanted to do the reread because it just felt extremely prescient for tonight. For the Times.

20:42
Keith
Yeah.

20:43
Case
But at the same time, it looked like there was a gap. Like, there. There wasn't. Like, there was. There was coverage on Trans Metropolitan. Like, I could find, like, videos, but it wasn't like a series, like, going over the whole thing. And that's why I thought that this was good for us to. To sit down and actually break down the series issue by issue.

21:00
Keith
Yeah.

21:01
Case
So in light of that, let's get started with the first arc of the book. So it opens in up a goddamn mountain is what it says. And the protagonist that were introduced to looks incredibly like Alan Moore. We just need to say that part right up there. When I was a kid and I was reading this for the first time, or I should say when I was in high school, I latched onto the Alan Moore part, and I had no idea who Hunter S. Thompson was. So I was like, oh, that's an interesting take being the Alan Moore thing.

21:38
Pat
Now.

21:40
Case
So this is not the look that Spider is going to have for the remainder of the series, but they do introduce him as a extremely bearded fellow who is covered in tattoos. And we established quickly, owes a lot of money to a publisher, or rather owes two books to a publisher and has spent all the money that he made off of quite a bit of commercial success.

22:03
Keith
Yeah, I was going to bring up the Alan Moore thing, and I brought up with the case beforehand. It's like, I'm not crazy, right? Okay, so good. It reminds me so much of in Dead Poets Society where Todd, played by Ethan Hawke, was describing Walt Whitman and called him the sweaty tooth madman. And I'm like, yeah, that's Alan Moore. And then that's exactly what this looks like. So if you have any. If you don't know what Alan Moore looks like, imagine a sweaty tooth madman. That's what this guy looks like. So.

22:34
Pat
Yeah, and it's got to be. It's. It's obviously intentional, right? Because, like, the.

22:38
Keith
The.

22:38
Pat
The ringlet, the way, you know, it's. There's a lot of ways to draw someone with a. With a huge beard and a bunch of long, shaggy hair without it looking so perfectly like the. The curly ringlet waves of Alan Moore.

22:51
Keith
Yeah, that's a question for Derek. I wonder if he had, like, a note, like, make him look like Alan Moore.

22:56
Case
Yeah, yeah. I've heard people make the comparison that it's Alan Moore turning into Grant Morrison.

23:03
Keith
Oh, my God, you're right. That's great.

23:08
Case
But anyway, so the character Spider we are introduced to, quote unquote, the whorehopper, his publisher for his books, who we never actually meet in the series, we just have allusions to. And I think this is the only phone call we even get.

23:21
Pat
And I keep forgetting that character is different from.

23:26
Case
It's not Royce.

23:26
Pat
Yeah, it's not. Is different from Royce. Yeah.

23:29
Keith
There is another phone call in this first volume.

23:31
Case
Oh, okay.

23:32
Keith
Yeah, yeah.

23:33
Case
They follow up, and so Spider reluctantly has to leave his mountain hideaway, which is, again, very Hunter S. Thompson coded, that, like, Hunter Thompson famously had a compound that was his, like, refuge away from everyone.

23:48
Pat
Isn't there, like, kind of a throwaway line that He. It's implied that he spent a not insignificant portion of that money too on like defenses for this hideaway. Talks about like mines and gaunt turrets or something like that.

24:00
Case
Yeah. When he leaves, he says once I'm gone, the security system will reboot and the Ebola bomb under the toilet will arm. I'll be back. I worked for too long to buy five years apiece and I'm not giving it up.

24:10
Keith
Yeah. And then he obviously he says something about like what he's traded for like weapons and all this stuff. He has a really early line about trading for weapons amongst other things. And obviously we see a rocket launcher immediately. So. Yeah. Yep.

24:25
Case
Yeah. So he leaves and he decides he's going to blow up the bar that he says is a great bar.

24:32
Pat
There's two. Okay. Up top there's two things where it's obvious. So I was googling earlier to try and find. Unfortunately nothing. Not really anything popped or it's words I don't want to say. On my. What is the synonym for edgelord? Because I feel like we're just going to beat that word to death. Because like let's go. Backing up the Ebola bomb line. It's like haha, that's like a famous like scary disease. He talks about protecting his peace, but that would ruin his. That would ruin his hideout if that went off. If somebody came in there and ruined it, like he'd be infected, be contaminated. You wouldn't be able to go back to it anyway. So that's like that's a dumb plan. And then yeah, rocket launching the bar. How does he know no one's in there? Did he just commit murder?

25:20
Case
He says he hates the bar and everyone in it. Also I should note that the beer that is in the sign for the bar which is named Bastards is Moore beer spelled M O O R E. So I feel like we're. We're not crazy when we say that. This appears to be Alan Moore.

25:35
Pat
So it's very likely this character commits multiple. A multi murder right out the gate.

25:42
Keith
So here's my thought and this is something. Again, I've only read the first volume so far because I'm trying to go into this as we go. My thought is everything that happens before the toll booth could be a Hunter S. Thompson hallucination type story. Like, you know what I mean? Again, this might not be revealed later on, but I was kind of like I didn't tell the poor bastard about the bats. He'd see them soon enough himself, you know. I mean that kind of thing like did he actually do this or is this like some emotional trauma he's going through leaving his little base or something like that.

26:13
Pat
He was actually just living in like a little shitty rented room above the bar. And then instead of a bowl of bomb, he just took a really nasty and didn't flush.

26:21
Keith
Yeah, like he's just imagining this. I, I, I. That's my personal head cannon right now. But you know, because he doesn't, I mean not through the rest of this volume, he doesn't really get that violent like that again. So I was kind of like that's weird.

26:34
Case
Like yeah, I think the weird. This is the tone that we're gonna sort of tackle with as we go through the series. Whereas this line between cartoonish violence and like serious violence.

26:45
Keith
Right.

26:45
Case
Like yes, we get close ups on the really bad stuff pretty frequently in the series. But also especially Spider. But not, but not alone is prone to doing all kinds of CR. Hijinks and like, you know, it's a weird world where like death might not have the same permanence for everyone. Like they can vacrow people. They like they can beam brains in from body to body. Like it's possible to like there is a whole thing about like resuscitated people like after they die in clone bodies. So like it's possible that like we're meant that some of these are not as severe a thing. And so him like just blowing up the bar is just like one of those like hahaha, Bugs Bunny antics.

27:33
Pat
Okay, you're just. That's one of my notes. Is he's, he is, he's Bugs Bunny. He's very Bugs Bunny coded. But yes, there is some wild swings in tone with the violence because it's like when he's doing it's supposed it's like framed as like funny or comical or like wow, what a. You know, he's, I can't, he's so cool. He can, he can do this and get away with it and then that is it swings to horrific. Like not like the angels ate right like that. That some of those panels are real.

28:08
Keith
Tough.

28:11
Pat
And I don't know if that's a good thing or not. The, the you know, being so with the swings. But it is just something to point out is. Yeah, there's definitely, it's interesting.

28:23
Keith
Yeah. No, I agree. And especially with like you mentioned the riot which we're definitely going to talk about. Yeah. With the narrative over it. You know what I mean? Him. NARRATING over it made it even more kind of like emotionally devastating.

28:39
Case
Yeah.

28:40
Keith
And so, yeah, it was a huge swing in like.

28:45
Case
Yeah.

28:45
Keith
In the tone and the mood.

28:47
Case
Yeah. As we'll see as we go through, there's like a lot of cartoonish violence for the sake of it. I would say. Like it vacillates between cartoonish violence and serious violence and doesn't really have a non violent state. Like there are a few moments of general tenderness between characters, but those are always quite shocking because they are so rare in the series.

29:06
Keith
Right.

29:07
Case
So spider heads into the city. We have an encounter with a toll booth, which I'm only bringing up because it's honestly, it's cited by Derek as one of the examples of how technology even by the end of the series had moved past some of their futurism of the beginning of the series. Because he cited in one of the intros to one of the books that by the point that the series had ended, Bluetooth headsets had become a thing. And just like, oh man, the tech has gotten so small relative to what were imagining even at the beginning of this.

29:43
Pat
I think it's. That's always going to be something that's tough but also kind of funny in any kind of future. Any, anything, any property set in the future. Because it's always going to fall into. Everything you see is going to fall into one of three categories. And I think every single property is guilty of this. It's either. Oh, you nailed it. Right. Like that's. That is very on par. Some of the technology like yeah, that's exactly it. And then they'll like when he's doing live feed stuff like lives basically like live streaming his column and things like that. And then there's things where it's like, yeah, that's so far out there. And that problem like the maker, like the thing that can just make anything, you know, like yeah, that's, you know there's 3D printing but like that.

30:29
Pat
But something that can anything make anything from like food to clothes to technology to glasses to technology. Like that's so far out there. And then yet like case your point, you get stuff where it's like, oh, we're way past, we blew way past that. There's the scene he like assault some guy and like a hairpiece falls off or something like that. Like, and those still exist today. But it's like you think they would have maybe had maybe a cure for that. They have all this other technology and people are augmenting their DNA so they could probably cure Baldness if you're changing your DNA. Yeah, yeah.

31:03
Case
I mean, just to like skipping ahead slightly, but the, the scene with the maker where we get the whole explanation for how it works, where it like has a base block of dense matter or you can put garbage in it to operate in and so forth. He then activates it to create his picture shades and he says, give it two gigs of onboard memory.

31:25
Pat
That's. Yeah.

31:26
Case
And in 1997 that was a ridiculous amount of storage.

31:30
Keith
Right.

31:32
Case
And now like, that's. That. That is comically small to the point where like, things can't operate.

31:38
Keith
Yeah. I have terabytes in my PlayStation. So. Yeah.

31:45
Pat
I mean, our phones, you know, our phones are in.

31:48
Keith
Yeah, yeah.

31:49
Case
No, I mean, again, this is a forward thinking, but in a lot of ways it's like stuck just because like a bunch of paradigms hadn't shifted in the real world yet. And one of those paradigms is 9 11. Like, yeah, like, there's a lot of ways that we think about the world that shifted after the series came out. But it's interesting to see what it. What a really dystopian bleak perspective of a future, like an explicitly capitalist future looks like from the perspective of someone, you know, close to 30 years ago.

32:29
Pat
Yeah.

32:29
Keith
The bleakness being a pre 911 thing was a real surprise to me because in our culture right now we really view 911 as a breakpoint of when the tone of just most media changed in a lot of ways and we became more realistic and more bleak and more dour. And the fact this is pre 9 11, I was like, wow, this feels post 9 11, but it's pre 9 11. So.

32:57
Case
Yeah. So as Spider moves into the city, we get a lot of exposition both from Spider himself, sort of explaining how he does his job, things like getting journalists and insurance, you know, sort of as he talks out his plan. But every billboard, every sign there's stuff in there to sort of like start setting up the world that we're going to see. We get things like an ad for like listings in Angels 8. We see things. I mean, we see things like the sex puppets, we see the stuff about the transient. Right. Movements. All these things are like.

33:32
Case
Some of it is our throwaway gags, like the, you know, there's a whole running theme about how like in the future, because cloning is cheap, there are like, you can eat cloned humans and clone body parts from other animals and so forth, and it's not a big deal. And that's mostly for gag Purposes there. But there are points where it matters that. Where, like, these signs are going to have impact on the. On the stories.

33:58
Keith
Yeah, that's actually my main note. And this is a note I like about Derek in general is the depth of the art, the layers behind the things to find. Like, you can stop and look for things behind the characters. Like, look for these little details. Maybe there's a little scribble of a word and you want to see what it says. You know what I mean? You take your time when you read a book with his art because you want to take in everything. And. Yeah, like I said, a lot of really great world building just in the background that ended up coming up later on. So.

34:31
Case
Yeah, so Spider abandons his car once he's stuck in traffic, which I find hilarious from the perspective of. Yeah, he just got out of the car and walked away and it was just sitting there in the middle. So I, like, I. I ended up doing a full reread of the series when we first started talking about this and then reread it today, and I was like, oh, yeah, you had a car at the beginning. What happened? Oh, right, he just leaves it.

34:51
Keith
Yeah, that was funny. I don't know why, but La Land popped into my head. The opening to La Land.

34:57
Case
So, yeah, so he goes looking for one of the newspapers he used to work for the Word because he's looking for Mitchell Royce, who used to work on the city desk and is now the city editor. And this is another spot where Spider just has cartoonish violence for the sake of it. He just beats up the guy at the front desk and runs in. And we're not supposed to care about this guy because he's not Spider.

35:18
Keith
Yeah, but see, like. And I do think that's why I draw the difference between the. The violence, because literally he beats the crap out of a lot of people in this. But also, he did, at least not the first volume. He doesn't shoot a rocket launcher at anyone else. And that's where I'm like, is there. There's the line where I think it's fantasy. You know what I mean? But I definitely think he beat the crap out of that guy. Yeah. Yeah.

35:41
Case
I just want to note that the gun that Spider is waving around in the scene is the Han Solo gun from Star Wars.

35:47
Keith
Nerd.

35:50
Case
Well, yeah. I mean, what else are we here?

35:52
Pat
Well, no, it's. It's. Yeah, it will. There's a bigger point I want to make when it comes to the violence that Spider perpetuates.

36:01
Keith
Yeah.

36:03
Pat
That we'll get to it. But it's something where it's like there is a bit of a double standard with it.

36:09
Keith
Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

36:12
Case
I mean, again, he's supposed to be like. Because he's the good guy and the protagonist, like, everything he does is in some way justified or at the very least overlooked. But it will come to a point in the series as things escalate that like, he will perpetrate, like, real violence against characters, mostly in self defense. But those are supposed to be like, dramatic differences from like his. His normal kind of just like, again, Bugs Bunny ish, rampages.

36:40
Keith
Right.

36:42
Case
But so he talks to Mitchell Royce and Royce sets him up with, okay, you'll do a column because you are a celebrity. And I think that part we need to emphasize that even. Even now, it's still important. Like his name recognition is so important because of the books he already wrote that he's able to get this, like, fairly cushy gig. Even the shitty circumstances they set him up with at the beginning of this book where they provide an apartment for him that is like a not great apartment with like a shitty maker. And like the phone line is cut off except for when Royce needs to call him, like, even. That is only because we're talking about a huge celebrity and Spider is able to negotiate based on like, well, I could go to a different newspaper and they would also want me.

37:29
Case
And Royce is like, yeah, that's true. So yeah, I'll pay.

37:33
Keith
Yeah, yeah. And it's. I don't think we've said this word yet. And I just realized that for those who don't know, this is cyberpunk, like to the T. Like, to be super clear, we haven't actually said that word. I think.

37:48
Pat
Yeah, that's true. We have dystopian cyberpunk.

37:50
Keith
Yeah, it's super cyberpunk. So keep that aesthetic in mind if you haven't read the book. It's very much that aesthetic.

37:56
Case
Yes. So many characters, implants.

37:58
Pat
Yeah, yeah. It's just. It's hyper. Hyper capitalism, hyper futurism. Everything is an ad. It's. There's color everywhere, screens everywhere, technology, everywhere integrated into bodies. You're constantly being sold something. You know, everything is for sale. It's just again, not too far off. We're on the path.

38:23
Keith
The one thing that jumps out to me, because were talking about his apartment such is. Cyberpunk is dirty. You know what I mean? Like, there's trash. Everything is dirty. Unless it's the rich people's Area then it's very clean, of course. But yeah, because that apartment, that was the first time I was like, oh yeah, this is cyberpunk. Like I 100% feel this. Like this is. Everything's lived in, everything's a little bit dirty and everybody just kind of deals with it. And that's. And his really depressing.

38:49
Pat
And his maker, his robot machine, his machine that can basically 3D print everything from glasses to technology to clothes to food. Is a drug addict. Is it?

38:59
Keith
Yep. Right.

39:01
Case
Well, and it's a mafia made maker. It's named, It's a Gotti maker.

39:08
Keith
Yeah.

39:09
Case
But yeah, so he gets into this apartment, he tries to use what he thinks is a conventional shower, but it's actually more of a, like a, it's more like the sonic showers from Star Trek, but in this case more I would guess more like lasers or something. They burn off every hair on his body is ultimately what happens. And that gives us the now classic Spider look, which is a completely shaved down individual covered in tattoos.

39:33
Keith
Yeah. And a good look. I'll admit that good look. I liked it.

39:40
Case
But yeah, so he has the order like he has the maker produce him some clothes which will become his standard uniform, which is black slacks and a black jacket with no shirt on so that we can see his tattoos. And then these camera glasses that he says look weird and we see what more conventional ones look like. We see a flashback with Spider at one point where he's got. It's the same basic style where it has the sort of like long main lens for the eye that isn't the camera. And then, and then for the version that is not crazy looking or supposedly not crazy looking, it has the big circle, but it has like its own separate like lens for his eye. So we see a difference there.

40:18
Case
Now I wanted to talk about the camera glasses because this is an area that has only recently become so caught up here. But like there are AI glasses now. Like there's like the meta Ray Bans that are pretty good at doing pictures and actually very good at doing uploaded videos and more. So this is another area where like our technology of today has sort of surpassed the technology that they were presenting as being like a crazy future thing.

40:46
Pat
Yeah. But so much what's funny. What's funny is as like someone who writes and sometimes you can just see the strings though too with this whole scene where it's. You thought this was really cool, but you could, you didn't want to like say as in the writer of the. You thought this is that. You thought this looked so cool, but you felt like it would be maybe cringy or uncool to, like, play it straight, so you had to have, like, an excuse. It's like, oh, it wasn't supposed to actually be that. It's kind of quirky and weird. But I feel like the image of Spider was thought of first. The tattoos, the glasses, the suit, and then worked backwards, like, oh, how does it. How does. There has to be a reason for him to have these. This aesthetic that's not just straightforward.

41:41
Pat
Like, it looks cool. I don't know, maybe that's just me, but I'm feeling like. I feel like it's one of those things where you can't. Or not you can't. That they didn't want to be, like, straightforward with, like, we think this looks cool. It's like, no, we're edgy. We have to be like, oh, I guess we'll. We'll look like this. We didn't really want to.

42:05
Case
The reason my glasses look like this is because my machine's on drugs.

42:09
Pat
Yes, yes. That Hard drugs. Just say you thought it looked cool. Just do it.

42:15
Keith
One of my favorites sold replicas of those glasses. Of course they did.

42:20
Case
I remember at both. Both in high school, I looked them up and wanted to buy a pair. And more recently, when I was doing this reread, I was like, I wonder how much they cost and if I could get them prescription.

42:30
Keith
That's why I was like, in this story that's again, about the cyberpunk hyper capitalism of everything. The fact they took something like that and made a product of it is just amazing. It's wheels within wheels. I love it.

42:42
Pat
Yes.

42:43
Case
So we get another info dump here, Spider to acclimate to the city. Has his news feed vacillate between different stories. So we get something about the revivals, which are the humans who. And we'll have more coverage about this later. But for people who died in the past and were cryogenically suspended and then had their bodies cloned and their brains implanted in new bodies. So this is often a touchstone to people from, like, our time interacting with them. We get the downloaded, which are people who upload their. I mean, they're called downloaded, but it's people who upload their consciousness into, like, a cloud of nanobots that function like the makers and are able to basically produce anything by way of moving computer things around. It's very much the gray goo concept, but in this scenario, it's a pink Cloud.

43:37
Keith
Yeah. And the whole downloading your identity, like, that's such a trope now in modern storytelling. So.

43:45
Case
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't even call that like that revolutionary for this at this point. Yeah, it was already a pretty well worn trope there. And then we get the thing with transients and that is, leads into the actual first like, story that happens in this all because we get more information about the transients here and more as the story progresses. But transients are people who in this scenario, have used genetic modification to become more alien in an effort to become fully alien in this at this point. And it turns out that the leader of this sort of group, which is now this like, dissident lower class, is a person that Spider knows, Fred. Christ.

44:34
Keith
So I as this is the first arc and I was absolutely horrified where this might go. As soon as it started, I was like, oh, no, I don't want this to be something that's really going to bother me. Luckily, it didn't go the direction I thought it'd be, where it was like a, an allegory for something, you know, that would be important to me. You know, me and people I'm close to, which would be literally the words trans.

44:59
Case
Yeah. Yeah.

45:01
Pat
Are you saying. Yeah, you're afraid it's going to be a very am fisted, sloppy allegory for trans rights?

45:07
Keith
I, I, that. But then also, like, because of the nature of the way they're painted of like, oh, they do it for, they want, just want to look different. I was really worried it was going to go that. Right.

45:22
Pat
Yeah, luckily would be very insulting and very.

45:25
Keith
Yeah, very.

45:26
Pat
Yeah, yeah, very offensive and disrespectful. Yeah.

45:30
Keith
Luckily it didn't go that way. This is very clear like, that it wasn't made to be a one to, to transsexual people or transgender people. And so I was a little worried about it, but then when they pivoted, when it was clear that wasn't, I was like, okay, good. I was able to enjoy it, but I was a little teeny bit worried, especially with trans. I was like, oh, no. Like the first story case. The first story.

45:52
Case
I know, rereading it. I was also like, huh, how is this going to hold up? And I think part of it is the name and part of it is, yes, they are kind of a pathetic group that want to change who they are for reasons that are not supposed to be well respected.

46:10
Keith
Yeah.

46:11
Case
We find out more as the story goes on. Like, about the types of people who do it. And a lot of them are just people who are looking to belong somewhere that isn't where they currently are.

46:25
Keith
Yeah. It would be more comparable to, like, a cult that, like. Well, like the Nexium cult. I've been talking about that a lot, that they got the brand. You know what I mean? Like, that it's more similar to that. And it was very careful, I noticed, specifically talking and talking about transgender people. It was very specific. Not, this is my identity and I should be this. It was very much like, I want to be this. It wasn't like, this is my identity. And so that's when I felt, like, more assured at that this wasn't going to be a problem. So. Yeah.

46:56
Case
Yeah. I mean, it's going along with that whole cyberpunk thing. It's the very, like, body modification kind of side of it, but. But not from the standpoint of, like, true identity, which I think is sort of the key thing that makes us wholly separate.

47:10
Keith
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It may be a little more assured that this would be okay to read. Yeah. So. And I'll be honest. I mean, we're going to talk about the whole story, but I'll straight up. This. I loved this arc. I really. This. This arc, really. Especially the third issue that we've kind of hinted at already with the riot, I was like, wow, this is really affecting, and I think it did a really great job. So we'll jump into it, but I wanted to get that out before we continued.

47:37
Case
Yeah. So identifying Fred Christ, who is the leader of the transient movement, Spider is like, I can get an interview with this guy. And decides to head to Angel's 8, which is this, like, slum in the city that he says is close enough that he can walk to. And so heads out into the night. And that's the end of the first issue. And then again, one of those scenarios where it's just like, oh, how time is marched on. He's bickering with a cab driver for it being 30 bucks.

48:07
Keith
Jeez.

48:09
Pat
I feel like that's something they never, ever get right.

48:12
Keith
Is.

48:12
Pat
Is inflation or like.

48:14
Case
No, inflation's. All the money in this is so small. Like, like, they quote people and it's just like, oh, man. Like in some points where it's supposed to be pathetic. Like, some, like, some characters charge, like, low prices for things and supposed to be like, man, like, have some, like, self respect.

48:32
Keith
But.

48:33
Pat
But yeah, if you're. If you're a cipher and you want to write something that takes place on earth like in 50 plus years from now. Just give yourself a lot of go nuts, go bananas in the other direction.

48:45
Keith
Yeah.

48:45
Pat
Make the like, how much is that loaf of bread? $10,000 for that loaf of bread. Oh, what a steal. It must be on sale or.

48:56
Keith
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

49:00
Case
So Spider goes to where they have the roads barricaded blocking off this area because the transients have declared that they want Angel's aid to be to secede from the planet and become part of the alien colony on old villainous. And so Spider is able to very easily bully his way through and it's not a big deal.

49:22
Pat
Not bully. He does more violence. He likes.

49:25
Case
He puts a cigarette out in someone's eye.

49:27
Pat
Yeah, yeah, that's pretty, that's. It's so weird because he, yes, he puts a cigarette out in a person's eye but then is like sympathetic, like, oh, look at the violence being perpetrated on these people by the cops. Like five minutes later. Again, it's something where I feel like, this is a cool edgy thing to do. But it's like actually, and that's my biggest, I think I actually have an issue with that, with the violence that Spider does because a lot of it is like you're not actually better, like, and then you're assaulting people left and right and that. And it's one thing like someone's giving you lip and you sock them in the mouth or something like that. But like that, like blowing up something with a rocket launcher, which I feel we just have to take that at face.

50:17
Pat
I, I, Keith, I, I acknowledge your head can.

50:19
Keith
No, I get you.

50:20
Pat
I feel like we have to just take that at face value. Is happened.

50:23
Keith
Yeah, yeah.

50:24
Pat
But then like putting out a cigarette like he, there's no way his eye isn't ruined then.

50:29
Case
Right.

50:29
Pat
Like after that.

50:31
Keith
There's only one thing I can say about it because I agree with you that he uses violence way too much for someone who's like, oh, gotta protect these people. My only justification I give him is at least he never, at least as far as the first volume goes, punches down. At least there's that. You know what I mean?

50:49
Pat
Like, yeah, because he's short and everyone's taller than.

50:53
Keith
But yeah, like he seems to have empathy for the people who, I guess it sounds horrible, but that he would pity. You know what I mean? Like, like if someone's just an asshole, all bets are off, which is not great. But at the same time he doesn't. Again, he doesn't punch down, you know, which is. Which is good, I guess. You know?

51:14
Case
So, Yeah, I mean, the people. Because it's like, this is such a Gen X book in a lot of ways.

51:22
Keith
Oh, yeah.

51:25
Case
Like we said, it's like all this edgelord tendency of, like, man, look at these jackbooted thugs. Even the guy who's the security guard for the barricade is. You know, it's because he's trying to come off from this, like, fake authority. You know, he's trying to act tough. That. That's why Spider reacts to him that way. And we're supposed to cheer him on for it because it's like, yeah, fuck the man, whoever the man is. There's so many men.

51:51
Keith
It's. It's not just Gen X, it's Vertigo as hell. And we haven't talked about that. This was actually.

51:56
Case
Yeah, this wasn't Vertigo at this point. This was Helix.

51:59
Keith
Exactly. Started with Helix, but then, like, because I was a huge Vertigo fan and. God, there's so many books like this in Vertigo that were just, like, this really edgy Gen X stuff and. Yeah, yeah, this kind of reminded me of that. Yeah.

52:13
Case
Yeah. But he travels through the community of transients and identifies a woman with a child and tries to talk to her, and she's very scared, but he is like, look, the police are definitely coming, and if I don't talk to Fred, Christ, then no word is getting out, period, about this. And she points him in the right direction and says, when you get there, remind him that this is his kid, too.

52:40
Keith
Yeah.

52:42
Case
So setting up Fred is not. Not a good person. And he thinks to himself that, jesus, Fred, I swear, you'd stick it in the mud if you thought it would wriggle.

52:54
Keith
Yeah. And that kind of does reinforce the whole culty aspect of it. Less of the social commentary of it. So I appreciated that moment, even though it's grim to really emphasize, hey, this guy's a grifter taking advantage of people, basically.

53:08
Case
Yeah. And so Fred, or rather Spider, finds Fred's bar or where he's, like, holed up as his, like, base of operations, assaults the guards out front and kicks his way in and fires a gun at a lot of things. Doesn't appear to kill anyone.

53:25
Keith
Yeah, I forgot about that moment when I talked about his violence earlier. I just remember that.

53:29
Pat
Did he not have the gun? Did he take it off one of the guards?

53:32
Keith
I think so. I think he took it off the guard at the door. I thought he.

53:37
Case
He appears just to have it. It's also possible because we find out the guns have different kinds of calibers in the future. Like, they're really powerful guns that are very small. It's also possible some of these are like, not particularly strong. Like the gun that he's using here might be like pellets or something to that because. Yeah. Because he doesn't kill anyone in the scene. And we get, we. At a certain point in the series, we do find out more about like, how many people Spider has killed. And it's not just like some comically large number of, like, oh, every place I go, I've set off a bomb and like wiped out people. If we take that, you know, seriously, like the number given. But so Fred comes out clearly having been in the middle of sex, demanding that he has uninterrupted sex.

54:29
Case
It's important for the mission because he's awful. But he recognizes Spider and he's excited to see Spider because Spider used to give him good write ups when he, When Fred was in the music industry.

54:41
Keith
Yeah. Jumping ahead a tiny bit, I like that. He's basically like, I got a interview with Fred and his editor is like, yeah, who doesn't like. And I was like, yeah, like that sets a really interesting thing that this guy is, you know, willing to talk to anybody with a camera about. Again, that grifter, that cult mentality.

55:02
Case
Yeah. We get, we get more information about the transient movement. We get how it started off as what they call temping, where it's like temporarily turning into some other creature. And that alien specifically came through. Now one thing I love is the fact that alien culture is just eaten up and devoured by capitalism and like commoditized and then just spat out and no one's interested in it anymore. Like that I think is so interesting that like, we made connection with extraterrestrial life and it doesn't matter.

55:27
Keith
Yeah. The most realistic thing about this book.

55:32
Pat
Yeah. Also Fred absolutely would be like a TikTok influencer peddling supplements.

55:42
Keith
Yes, very much so. Playing some, playing some game on Twitch. Yeah.

55:51
Case
So Spider leaves and on his way out, he sees apparently what he thinks are lawyers because they have big pockets full of drugs in their suits. And we get a sort of a thought about how like, well, the, like the revolution itself is going to fall apart because it's like made up of people and people suck.

56:16
Keith
Yeah, basically. And that's like, kind of like this would be a good time to bring up the thing that I find very interesting about Spider is that he is such a sloppy, violent, like explosive mess, but he's also really competent at what he does. And just that moment of being like, I immediately know those are lawyers. This is why, you know, like again, that's that journalist thing, you know what I mean? Like you got that nose for the information. And then compare that with again the tonal dissonance of him jumping in there and firing a gun, you know, and I'm like, it's really weird. Like. Yeah. Yep.

56:58
Case
And I would say it's particularly bad earlier in the series where it's like kind of finding its voice and so there is more of that whiplash.

57:06
Keith
Yeah.

57:07
Case
On his way home, Spider encounters a character that will be a mainstay of the series, which is the gecko eating cat. The two faced cat that spokes of one face. I don't believe ever gets a name.

57:21
Keith
I love the cat. I mean, obviously.

57:25
Case
Yeah. Talk about grotesque.

57:28
Keith
Yeah, that's hideous cat.

57:33
Case
But yeah. So this is where Spider gets a call from Royce and where we establish that like everyone has made, has gotten an interview with Fred Christ because Fred Christ is just a. Yeah. But it establishes like, oh no, there is going to be like violence is actually about to break out. And so Spider is like, I need to get back to where I was because there's going to be a story here. Oh, and here's his car.

58:09
Keith
He did get the car.

58:10
Case
Yeah, he did get the car back.

58:12
Keith
I didn't catch that.

58:13
Pat
So yeah, I think it was registered to him and they looked him up and then he was registered at that apartment or something. I don't know.

58:23
Keith
Or it's got a robot inside.

58:25
Pat
As much as we, you know, there's a lot of good art pieces by Derek when you cut back and he goes back to Angels eight, the police and their riot gear with shields that are like shaped and colored like stop signs that say like submit now. Yeah, it's like, I mean this whole book's very on the nose.

58:47
Keith
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think an intentionally so. You know what I mean? So. Yeah, yeah.

58:56
Case
So spider races into Angel's 8 and we get a lot of shots of the ride. And this is where like the violence is very much supposed to be grotesque and it focuses on these like terrible moments there as the cops are just like laying waste at these people.

59:13
Pat
So it's some kind of incident happens that is officially reported. Who knows what actually happened, but it's officially reported as violence against the police. And it's either fully fabricated or they posit that's what the lawyers were doing is they were paying someone from the transit community to do something to basically like right, pop it off to give the police an excuse. Then he, Spider strips into to a house of a gentleman's club, an exotic dancers club. And then is from the top the said strip club is viewing all this and writing it with a gang of strippers around him hanging out.

01:00:00
Keith
Yeah. And that, you know, that whole inventing a excuse for the police to enact violence is probably our first oof moment of the series where I'm like, that hits really close to home. Don't like that at all. Like, but it was interesting. And maybe that's why this was the first time I was like, holy crap. Like, this is the first time the book really hooked me. Like, oh man. Like, and his article that he's writing, being his monologue at the same time is really smart. It's a really good way to do that. And it was really well done. And that kind of like again emphasizes like shit, he's really competent. But also again that dynamic of he's also a piece of crap. Like it's really, it's, it's not whiplash because I don't know if it's necessarily bad, it's just interesting. So.

01:00:53
Keith
But yeah, that was the first time I was like, okay, I actually really like this character was this monologue. Even though I do feel it was a bit. What's the word I'm looking for? Cashing in on the suffering of others. There's a little bit of that, you know what I mean? Like, he's like, oh, you're standing there watching this kid get killed. Go help. Stop writing about it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, that was kind of weird to me. But, but I get the point. He's a journalist, he observes, he gets the word out. But that was a little weird.

01:01:26
Case
Yeah, I mean ultimately like what he does is the right thing because he successfully defangs the police response by writing it. What he does is that he talks his way into a strip club by way of pretending to be a pregnant woman. And then when they open the door, threatening to gouge out the remaining eye of the bouncer who also is one eyed. So Spider likes to go for the eyes is the long story short. There goes in and goes up to the roof leading these strippers who had all holed up in there, including one who will become important later. And they go up to the roof and he writes his article and they publish it live to like all the newsfeed sites. So it's like, because there's no cameras and there's no other reporters in there, it's, it is live streaming his thoughts.

01:02:23
Case
And like in the modern world it would have been a video, you know.

01:02:26
Keith
Yeah.

01:02:29
Case
But in this it was okay. Yeah. I'm getting every single page of text to you as fast as I can. I'm just like writing this thing and it's being beamed everywhere. And so he describes in like graphic detail along with like pictures he's sending from his glasses, the, like the actual riot. And I think the note that really gets me is where they're talking about the cops beating up someone and it says one of them is groping his own erection.

01:02:57
Keith
Yeah. Yeah, no comment.

01:03:02
Case
Yeah. Speaking at like, when I first read this, I was not familiar with the idea that the cops were the bad guys. And this was a very eye opening kind of work for me in that regard.

01:03:17
Keith
I could imagine. Yeah.

01:03:22
Case
But Spider writes this incredibly passionate report about like what's going on for the Angel State riot and like points out that it was probably not caused by the transients and that this is like a completely over the top response. And because there's an outcry from the people, the. The city center like calls off the police. And so doing his job reporting, he has succeeded in counteracting this riot.

01:03:51
Keith
Yeah. And importantly enough protects the people. Not. Not Fred's structure. They make a point of that. Like, he's not defending Fred, he's defending the people who really can't.

01:04:05
Pat
Yeah, well, because also, fuck. Because Fred turned out to be not only just like, yeah, pedophile. Yeah. He's a piece of shit. So fuck Fred. But that doesn't mean those people deserve to get stomped on. But yeah, Fred, exactly.

01:04:18
Keith
Yeah, they made that distinction, which I appreciate. Like, he's like helping the people. Fred still sucks.

01:04:24
Case
Yeah.

01:04:24
Keith
Yeah.

01:04:25
Pat
And that's what is the case. Like that like propels him back into the like, public consciousness. Yep.

01:04:31
Case
He's like, spider's back. Yeah. This is another point where inflation is just wild.

01:04:38
Pat
It's.

01:04:39
Case
Hey, get some perspective. I just made you thousands of dollars, Spider. Grandmother corpse. How many thousands?

01:04:47
Keith
Oh boy.

01:04:51
Case
But so Spider is all excited about being back and having done a good job. When the police roll up next to him, this is like a day or two later and they just beat the out of him and they say, like, don't with Us ever again. And Spider just like covered in bruises and bloodied, gets up and just like laughs his way back to his apartment.

01:05:14
Keith
Yeah, I think that was an interesting idea and I think it was a good choice because I think like, him just pissing off the police and then getting away scot free would be a good story, but also like, less affecting. And I don't want to be left with the idea that, oh, he changed everything and police violence stopped forever. That's not the case. That's not going to be the case. So I think that emphasis, it is.

01:05:39
Pat
An excuse to just show again, like, how cool he is because he gets his ass stomped. But he laughs about it.

01:05:47
Case
Well, it also is a scenario where the violence is enacted on him. So he gets as good as he gives.

01:05:56
Keith
To a degree.

01:05:58
Case
Yeah.

01:05:59
Keith
He didn't take anyone's eye. They didn't take his eye out or anything.

01:06:03
Case
Well, we don't know for sure that he actually took his. The guys.

01:06:08
Keith
Yeah, yeah. And it was, yeah, again, wrapped up. This first, like three issue arc introduced us to him pretty well. I think it was a succinct story, you know, so.

01:06:22
Case
Yeah. So jumping on to the next. So, like, that's the first arc of the book and it introduces us to the, to this world and so forth. But jumping into the next issue, Spider's been moved into a nicer apartment. And this will become a running theme of the book as he becomes more and more famous. He keeps getting nicer apartments. And Royce tells him that he has an assistant now that is coming to move in with him. And this also introduces a thing that'll become a staple of the book, which is the bowel disruptor.

01:06:50
Keith
So edgy poop. Poop jokes. Yeah, This not the bowel disruptor, I'll be honest. But this moment is when the book really took off for me because I think we needed this other character because otherwise, again, he's just Bugs Bunny walking around beating up people and yelling. Well, it's, you know.

01:07:16
Pat
Yeah, I mean, it's a good, it's a classic literary or like, writing mechanism is you have like the new person who's like almost who basically gives an excuse for a lot of expositions to happen or for the experience to explain a lot of things that the audience doesn't know. But it's good to tell that without just like spell, you know, because, like, oh, well, there's a new person, you know, it's, you know, very classic writing it.

01:07:46
Keith
Yeah, yeah.

01:07:48
Pat
And that Was it the. The assistant shows up and it's. Is it. Do you pronounce it? Channon.

01:07:53
Case
I say Channon. Yeah.

01:07:54
Pat
Shannon.

01:07:55
Case
Yeah.

01:07:56
Pat
Here's one of the strippers that he hung out with during the riot.

01:07:59
Case
Yeah. Notably the stripper who had barcodes on her titties.

01:08:02
Keith
I noticed that actually in the art. I thought that was very interesting. And I like Channon. It's funny, if I had a nickel for every podcast I did with Case, where a stripper in a comic book is probably my favorite character, I'd have two nickels because we did Superman Earth one, So I guess she was a prostitute, not a stripper. Okay, nevermind. Anyways, but I like her and I like that. Again, I've only read the first six issues, but she feels like the kind of person who, whereas she does get railroaded by him a lot, is also going to be the kind of person that will call him out if need be.

01:08:42
Case
Yeah. The first thing she does to make Spider kind of like her is that she successfully identifies that she's. That he has a battle disruptor aimed at her. And he's like, you know what this is? I built one in high school.

01:08:55
Keith
Yeah.

01:08:57
Case
Yeah. So Channa's introduced and she. She initially comes in as his assistant, but she is kind of a badass. I shouldn't even say kind of. She is a huge badass. Like, the stripper thing is almost like, well, why the were you doing that? Because, like, you, like, you're so competent in so many areas. Just that it surprises me that she wasn't making more money doing like, other jobs because she's like a former bodyguard and various other things.

01:09:23
Keith
Right.

01:09:28
Case
This also sets up the. The. One of the reasons why I think some of the violence might not be as, like, permanent is that there are traits that people can download, such as anti cancer trait that you can just take and thus you can be a smoker and it's not a big deal. And Spider insists that his assistants are smokers like him.

01:09:48
Pat
Yeah.

01:09:50
Keith
That was a choice. Just, oh, you can take a thing, just not get cancer. Made me think of the expanse. But they had to take like the cancer drugs every day to do it. So. Yeah.

01:10:04
Case
Yeah, they hand wave stuff. Like, basically, I think the. The thought is that smoking looks cool. And so they just wanted to like, not have. Not have a concern about it any further.

01:10:16
Keith
Yeah.

01:10:18
Case
Because seriously, like, Spider, like, the smoke Spider has is like the way Todd McFarlane did Spider Man's webs. Like, it's an integral part of the character Design having, like a ring of smoke around his body at any given time.

01:10:30
Pat
Yeah, yeah, a little bit of. A little bit of an art cheat though, too. You don't gotta. You don't gotta illustrate the parts that are obscured by smoke.

01:10:38
Case
Yeah. Well, not that they're getting off that easy. Spider's covered with, like, complicated tattoos.

01:10:46
Keith
Yeah, yeah. But he regretted that design after a while.

01:10:50
Case
Yeah. One thing to note is that Spider greets her naked and when she goes like, get him some food and stuff, she's like, you have to be wearing pants when I come back.

01:11:04
Keith
Yeah.

01:11:10
Case
But they talk for a bit and like, again, Shannon's a really. A really nice character. I. I think she. She's interesting, she's very smart, and she impresses Spider very quickly.

01:11:20
Keith
Yeah, he definitely. Without openly admitting it, he definitely likes her. He, like, he's definitely like, okay, I can work with you. You know what I mean? Like, if it was anyone lesser, he'd be like, I don't need an assistant. Or he treated her like crap. But he's. Yeah, she impresses him immediately. And he's just like, okay, we'll deal with this. And he also seems eager to share his journalistic expertise with her for her to learn. So.

01:11:48
Pat
Yeah, yeah, he.

01:11:49
Case
He does provide her, like, some insight in terms of, like, what, you know, what are things she should be doing if she wants to become a better journalist? And that is. It's. It's good. And it helps humanize the character further.

01:12:02
Keith
Yeah, definitely.

01:12:05
Case
But the President is in town. He's on the campaign trail. And this is probably the most one to one Hunter S. Thompson scene in the entire series.

01:12:16
Pat
It's also the most Bugs Bunny too, because. What do you mean? He can just walk into the bathroom while the President is peeing in the bathroom and put his hands on the President.

01:12:26
Keith
Right.

01:12:27
Case
Well, so they claim that the President is so hated and there have been so many assassination attempts that the Secret Service is now so Naz be on his direct payroll in order to keep functioning.

01:12:39
Keith
That's insane. And also my second oof. Moment of the series where I'm like.

01:12:47
Case
Yeah, but. Yeah. So anyone who's seen where the Buffalo Rome should recognize this scene where the Buffalo Room is a Hunter S. Thompson movie starring Bill Murray, wherein Hunter S. Thompson is in the. In the bathroom when President Nixon comes in and they have like an encounter with each other. And so this is that. But ramped up to 11 with the whole him kicking his ass and then shooting him with a battle disruptor.

01:13:13
Keith
Yeah. And establishing that they knew each Other in his prior life.

01:13:19
Case
Yes.

01:13:20
Keith
Yeah.

01:13:21
Case
Also establishing that we're never going to get this president's name. He's just called the Beast.

01:13:26
Keith
I mean. Yeah, don't humanize the guy. Fuck him.

01:13:33
Case
Yeah. So this is supposed to be our right wing president. He's obviously got shades of Nixon going on for him.

01:13:40
Pat
He.

01:13:42
Case
It is abhorrent. We will. We will find out more about how abhorrent he is. He is a terrible guy. He's not the worst guy in the series, but he's a terrible guy.

01:13:53
Keith
I mean, he is the President of the United States. So.

01:13:55
Case
Yes, But. So it ends with. With Spider heading out after and grabbing Shannon and being like, we need to go. And she's like, what now? We just got here. And then it's like, the President just shit himself.

01:14:11
Keith
Yeah. A lot of poop.

01:14:13
Pat
We gotta get extra watery. I think, like.

01:14:16
Keith
Yeah, I think, again, a lot of poop. A lot of poop jokes. I'm like, all right.

01:14:22
Pat
So is that why Case is that way? He was so. There was like, not. Those weren't even, like, really guards outside the bathroom. They were just, like, attendants.

01:14:30
Case
Yeah, they. They weren't. They note that they're not Secret Service, that they're the. The hotel security.

01:14:35
Pat
Okay. And the whole point is that he doesn't get Secret Service anymore. He has to provide for himself.

01:14:41
Case
Like, he gets Secret Service, but only by. But he has to directly pay them.

01:14:45
Keith
And the whole purpose of his speech was to beg for money to pay for things because he's out of money, basically. Yeah. And they made the point of him using his election fund to pay off personal debts, which. Oof. Like that one. Wow.

01:15:00
Pat
It's more science than fiction.

01:15:03
Case
Yep.

01:15:05
Keith
Yeah.

01:15:07
Case
Moving on to Spider. Watching a fuckton of TV for an episode.

01:15:10
Keith
I love this one so much. I wish I didn't, but I loved it. Yeah.

01:15:14
Pat
Kind of like a forerunner to Rick and Morty's inner dimensional tv.

01:15:20
Case
Yep.

01:15:21
Keith
And the fact that so much of it was reality television just disgusted me because I'm like, oh, God. Like, that is what TV is now, is a bunch of unscripted stuff so we don't have to pay writers. And it's like that made me uncomfortable. Yeah.

01:15:38
Case
Yeah. We do meet Zhang, which is Shannon's boyfriend, who is a bit cyberpunky. He's got, like, tech implants all over the body.

01:15:46
Pat
Yeah, yeah.

01:15:49
Case
Well, at this point, it gets more cyberpunk.

01:15:52
Keith
Yeah.

01:15:52
Pat
Oh, is he ever.

01:15:53
Case
Yeah.

01:15:53
Pat
Does he, like, just slowly just keep replacing more and more of his body with. We. I Don't want to spoil stuff.

01:16:03
Case
Anyway. Yeah, like, yes, eventually he becomes more machine.

01:16:08
Keith
It's fine. I didn't like him immediately. So.

01:16:11
Case
Yeah, you're not supposed to like him.

01:16:12
Keith
Yeah, yeah. Not good enough.

01:16:17
Case
Actually, I will say that if we want to talk about like writers sort of like outing themselves. Like the description of Zhang, who is like there until he's not, is very much Warren Ellis sort of doing stuff that is like, oh, yeah, that's the kind of stuff people say about you.

01:16:31
Keith
And it was also really like again, in a book with very little subtlety. That was a really good subtle description of that kind of situation. I really like the wording of it there. Until he's not. I was like, holy crap, that's poetic. Like, I really like that. Yeah.

01:16:48
Case
But anyway, so yeah, we get a whole bunch of tv. We open with an ad for Air Jesus, which are sports shoes that you can run on water with.

01:17:00
Keith
Yeah, we. This kind of. I mean, we got a little bit before, but this basically this brings a lot of religion through the rest of this volume. Like a lot of religious connotations and. Very interesting. I'll say.

01:17:17
Case
Yeah. This book does not care for organized religions. It's very clear that.

01:17:22
Pat
Shocker.

01:17:23
Keith
Yeah, I know, right?

01:17:26
Pat
Oh, again, it's. Again, it's like you're not wrong. You're just an thing I feel like with that where it's like, oh, you told them. You showed them that whole sequence which is kind of our final sequence of this. But yeah, it's like it.

01:17:40
Keith
Yeah, yeah, it's.

01:17:41
Pat
It's like. Yeah, yeah, you got them. But any other case, Nick, notable from your notes, because then you got the more prolific notes there on the tv, on the channel surfing arc there any other big. He orders himself a pair.

01:17:55
Case
Yeah, he orders a pair. Yeah, he does a. Like he watches a cop style show and then he starts doing call in shows.

01:18:03
Pat
Oh, right, right.

01:18:07
Case
And yes, this is where he gets the call from the whorehopper.

01:18:11
Keith
Yeah.

01:18:12
Pat
Oh, that's right. Because he's harassing people. He's doing call in shows just to harass people and like trigger emotional breakdowns on live tv. And basically he's trolling is what he's doing.

01:18:22
Keith
He's.

01:18:23
Pat
He's trolling. And then because that's going out there, the. The publisher who he owes manuscripts to is like, I know you're around and in town because you're. I'm watching you on tv call into these shows.

01:18:35
Keith
Like.

01:18:36
Pat
Right. He's like, where are my fucking pages?

01:18:38
Keith
Yeah, basically yeah, he's very much trolling like me with my burner account on Twitter. Like just going after people and it's a lot. He really goes after them, I'll say that. Like, it was funny. I loved this specific issue because the art I thought was so much fun and the different, like the extended, like, I think it was a nine panel shot of him slowly slumping in his seat as it gets worse and worse. I loved that. That's probably my favorite page.

01:19:09
Pat
I'm on the side of his publisher, by the way.

01:19:11
Keith
Here.

01:19:12
Pat
I'm a writer, but I don't like the trope where writers are. They're always painted as like some. The sympathetic protagonist.

01:19:22
Keith
Right.

01:19:23
Pat
But they're behind on pages or they burn through their advance. I was like, that's your problem. The publisher gave you a chunk of money up front and you don't have to do anything but like turn in pages for them.

01:19:34
Case
Yeah. When we find out what one of the books are, it's like, it is so pathetic that like, Spider is just not willing to do work.

01:19:41
Pat
Yeah.

01:19:41
Keith
And no, I agree with you. I'm with the publisher because also, it's not like he has writer's block. He just doesn't want to do it. That's. There's a big difference. He took the money fully intended not to do the job. Like, what the fuck, man? Like, yeah.

01:19:57
Case
But Spider has sort of a breakdown once he realizes that because of his antics on tv, he is now actually the center of like the news story. He's become television and that guy that causes him to, to collapse until Channa gets home who brings him some caribou eyes to eat. And then they have one of the things that I adore, which is the buy bomb, where it's. It's the same thing as Futurama where like in your dreams you have, you have.

01:20:26
Pat
Oh, right, yes, have advertising.

01:20:29
Case
Which I think is just a great goddamn idea. And it's delivered here in a fun way where it's just like. Here's a burst of light that like actually is coded with all this like subliminal messaging for you.

01:20:40
Keith
It's hypnotob. Hypnotoad. Yeah, basically.

01:20:42
Case
No, no. There's actually like a few drama bit where.

01:20:44
Keith
I know. Yeah, yeah. I just like that. And like, it's the most dystopian thing that happens in this entire series so far for me. I'm like, oh God, advertisements in my dreams. That's nightmarish to me. Like Jesus.

01:21:00
Case
Yeah. Now I should also note that this is supposedly an issue where Spider's trying to get off the drugs. And at the very end after this, all he's like, give me the drugs.

01:21:08
Pat
Yes. Yeah. Advertising self. Same with self love. I wrote a short story that got published years ago that I just tried to make. It was about three versions of the same guy from multiple, like parallel dimensions trying to escape a really shitty version of Earth.

01:21:25
Keith
Like what?

01:21:25
Pat
And when I say shitty, I don't mean like a post apocalyptic. I mean it was kind of the, like the type of thing where they were trying to navigate through a big city. And if you had wanted to open it, you either had to pay for every door, like you wanted to walk through a door, you needed to pay for the door to open, or you had to wait and watch an ad before the door would open for you.

01:21:46
Keith
That's amazing.

01:21:46
Pat
Anytime you wanted to like leave a building or something like that, it.

01:21:50
Keith
That's great.

01:21:53
Case
So speaking of religion, get into the last issue of the trade. Spider opens dressed up like Jesus, sort of. Or at least he's in. In robes with a big beard and a fake halo.

01:22:06
Keith
Yeah.

01:22:08
Case
Maybe God, I don't know, whatever. Or Moses, like as religious figure. And he wakes up Shannon and it points and points out he's on a ton of drugs. Which is why he's like so alert.

01:22:21
Pat
Right now at 5:30 in the morning.

01:22:23
Keith
Yep. This issue was insanity. It, the pace was absolutely crazy. But I guess that kind of works with the idea that he is on these drugs that are making, you know, hyper. So it did reflect that really well. It was a whirlwind. Once he got into whatever convention, you know.

01:22:46
Case
Yeah.

01:22:46
Pat
Like the religious convention.

01:22:48
Keith
It was so much with thousands of process. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff being thrown at you. But it was interesting. Some of the like different religions, I'm like, okay, that makes sense. That's funny. Like, and then there's obviously really ridiculous ones. I think there was one that was a reference to the Nanny, which I laughed out loud because I have a weird obsession with the show the Nanny. So like, I thought that was pretty funny.

01:23:11
Case
Yeah, we get all kind. Like there's so many religions on display here. Like every panel there's like some kind of new thing and they make a point that like every minute there's like a new religion that pops up in the city. Yeah. So we get tons of, of background material with all manner of weirdness. Such as like a Lobotomy based religion, the Breatharians, we get the. The priesthood of Odin, where they're all, like, pathetic. Like, it's supposed to be like the big Viking men, but, like, it's. It's these, like, wiry little guys.

01:23:46
Keith
Yeah.

01:23:48
Pat
The same way everyone who crows, all those who, like, crow about being an alpha male, look like just the biggest dorks in the world.

01:23:57
Keith
Right. And the whole, like, obviously a big thing is dudes claiming Viking heritage to basically be assholes. Which pisses me off as someone actually descended from Norwegian and Finnish people. I like. I like runic tattoos. And sometimes I'm like, are people gonna think I'm a white supremacist because I have a runic tattoo?

01:24:19
Pat
Oh, I mean, yeah. I mean, you're talking to someone who is. I have resting maga face, I call it. People just look at me and assume, but, like, no, no. So I try to wear my, like. Nope, nope.

01:24:31
Keith
I wear blue. No, no. Red for me. No, no. Yeah, gotcha.

01:24:37
Case
But yeah, so we see all these different religions, and Spider eventually, like, goes on a rampage. He, like, this guy who uses, like, an ice pick to do, like, lobotomies as part of their. Their faith. Spider, like, kicks him to the ground and like, lifts up his outfit and goes, read my scripture. As he flashes his genitalia on him. This, by the way, is where a hairpiece comes off that we alluded to before. But yeah, I mean, Spider just, like, goes on this rampage and it's very much like Jesus with the tax collector.

01:25:11
Pat
Yeah. The money lenders.

01:25:12
Case
Yeah. The money flips the table.

01:25:14
Pat
Yeah. But again, this. And then when he first meets Channing at his apartment, it's again, where there's like, the double standard, because it's Spider and he's like the protagonist. His violence is okay. And then even though, like, this religious person is a grifter and shady and taking advantage of vulnerable people, it's like him opening the door butt naked for his woman assistant, who he kind of is like her boss. Like, naked is problematic. Him exposing himself to this person is problematic. But it's like, it's funny because it's Spider. So stuff like that. I'm always gonna, like, notice and be like, yeah. That being said, I'm all for.

01:25:57
Keith
You.

01:25:57
Pat
Know, someone who has deconstruct. Been spending my adulthood deconstructing my conservative Catholic upbringing and then breaking out of the. That and, you know, kind of forming my own opinions about the world outside of that, you know, coming to.

01:26:14
Keith
Yeah.

01:26:14
Pat
Like, why? Why are you so you're so like leftist liberal these days. Because I have eyes and ears and I'm like processing actual information and forming opinions based on that. But so I did, I do like, I did like the, like putting the religious charlatans and grifters in their place.

01:26:32
Case
Yeah, it's. It is very much like, oh, look at the magical true saying bastard Spidey here. Like he is his wise, beyond words. And what he says is the truth. And that's what he's like ranting about at the very end that all he's doing is speaking the truth. It's a fun issue. What is interesting here, looking at it, knowing where the series kind of goes and how it turns into more arc focused. We get a bunch of one shots at the end of the. We get the three issue arc to open the series and then these are one shots of sort of like set the world a little bit and just give us like a breather before we get into the next big arc. So it's fun that we've got the.

01:27:16
Case
These moments here and like, it's one of those scenarios where Spider is such a prick, but he's not wrong. Like, it's like.

01:27:29
Pat
It'S the dude talking to Walters. Like, you're not wrong, you're just an asshole. Yeah, it's one of those things where it's like I, I did find myself rolling my eyes a handful of times from like, okay, I get it. Like, you're so edgy. You're so taught. You're so, you know. And it was like 28, 29 when he wrote this. So it's like, okay, like, yeah, but it's good luck to. I don't know that I'll go read through the whole thing again. I don't think I will. But good luck to you both as you continue on this journey.

01:28:04
Keith
I think it's so interesting because again, it's a. It's a snapshot in time, you know what I mean? Like, and it is interesting to look back and remember this was a time, you know what I mean? And it's interesting. I will point out one more thing about the religious rampage he goes on. And again, I think this is a very interesting, distinct thing. The religious people he harasses are the ones that seem to be taking care or taking advantage of people. And I think that was obviously very. I mean, you could argue every religious figure just taking advantage of people. We won't get into that. But like, you know, he does definitely seems to Be like people trying to harm others.

01:28:42
Keith
I think that's a half hearted effort of make, you know, of like being like, oh, look, he's doing the right thing, but again, he's an asshole, so. You're right. Yeah.

01:28:52
Case
But yeah, so I mean, Keith, this is your first experience, the first six issues. How are we feeling so far?

01:29:00
Keith
It's very Vertigo.

01:29:01
Case
Yeah.

01:29:02
Keith
Like as somebody who read, you know, a lot of stuff, like the dmz, the exterminators, you know, losers. I love the losers. For instance, like that kind of era of Vertigo, this feels very much in that some of the political stuff, as you said, was incredibly prescient and uncomfortably so at times. Yeah. But it's interesting. I don't like Spider, but I don't think I'm supposed to. So I think it's succeeding there and going forward. I think the thing I'm really loving is that Channon is there. I think she's really going to help ground the story a bit, which I really appreciate. So.

01:29:47
Pat
Yeah, I think the creators wanted you to like Spider. I think they thought he was so cool, I think at the time, like. And you're not. I agree. You shouldn't. It's put him in the pantheon of characters that if, like he put him up there with like Tyler Durden, I'm like, if you think he's so cool and awesome, like, I don't trust you. And I think you missed the point.

01:30:10
Case
Well, but that's the thing though. I don't think you missed the point if you think Spider is cool. Because I think what you just said, that the creators think he is cool.

01:30:17
Keith
Yeah, exactly.

01:30:18
Pat
Well, the creators think he's cool, so I guess it's not a one for one. Because in Fight Club you're not like, it's not supposed to be, oh, the Fight club is a great thing, good thing. And people fully are just misunderstanding the text and the 100%.

01:30:34
Keith
Yeah.

01:30:35
Pat
Yes. And I'm contradicting myself, but yes. Sorry. So it's not a one to one because yes, in this case, I think the creators of Spider absolutely earnestly think he's so cool and want you to think he's cool.

01:30:47
Keith
But we as a people look back and say no.

01:30:49
Pat
Yes, yes. I'm saying in the, in this, in 2025, if you still think Spider is like super cool and like, I'm like, I, I don't. I'm gonna walk. I'm gonna side eye you.

01:31:02
Keith
I, I have a Distinct memory of this because me and Case have talked about this in the past. One of my obsessions when I was younger was wizard magazine. Anyone who reads comics, man, we loved wizard magazine.

01:31:13
Pat
Oh, my God. You just.

01:31:15
Keith
And I remember there was like, a top 100 comic book characters of all time. And I remember when I was younger, they did something like they put him in the list. I'm like, who the fuck is Spider Jerusalem? I was like, I don't know who that is, because I'd never read the comic. And now I'm looking back, and I'm like, I want to go back and read that now. Look and see what they said.

01:31:34
Pat
What year was that?

01:31:35
Keith
I can't remember. I. It was. Might have been that it was top 100 characters or something like that. I can't remember.

01:31:42
Case
They did so many listicles. I wouldn't be surprised that it showed up multiple times because. Because this was a comic that was raved about in wizard, like, one of the reasons I picked it up.

01:31:51
Pat
So listeners. Yeah, if you're young, if you're on the younger end of the spectrum, wizard was a magazine that talked about all things comics. Now take that further. A magazine.

01:32:02
Keith
Was. Is a dead tree was a thing.

01:32:04
Pat
It was. Was like a flimsy comic book that talked about, like, more nonfiction stuff for the most part, like news or hobbies. Yeah, there were just kind of flimsy paper booklets you could buy with pictures and about gardening or cars.

01:32:22
Keith
And wizard had the unique ability or unique feature of. Of doing a fantasy casting for a comic book movie that is the worst cast you've ever seen in your life every single time. And I loved them for that. It was always such a bad choice, and I loved it. But, yeah, no, they. I remember because they loved Vertigo. That was the peak wizard era. So I heard a lot about this through that.

01:32:43
Pat
So I was gonna say, speaking of Cat. I was gonna say, speaking of casting. I'm not saying this. I. I want this to be. If you made it today, I feel like it would be what Timothy Chalamet, who they'd make the spider.

01:32:58
Keith
That they. Originally, he wanted Tim Roth to play Jerusalem in the movie adaptation. I'm like, yeah, Tim Roth. Yeah, I could see that.

01:33:06
Pat
Actually, I was saying today, I'm not saying I want it to be. I'm saying if it was made today, that's who they'd cast for sure.

01:33:12
Case
100. Well, and like, Patrick Stewart was linked to this for a long time. He writes the forward to one of the later trades, and is. Is a huge Fan of Transmet, which is interesting. Yeah. So, yeah, there were certainly interesting people who could have played the part or who could still play the part. You know, like, I think final analysis on Spider, just from relooking at this one like he is supposed to be. Again, it's very Gen X. It's very edgelord. Like, it's that Magnificent Bastard type of character that, like, Warren Ellis loves putting in comics. Like, if you compare him with, like, Jenny Sparks, for example, like. Like they're. They're both, like, insufferable assholes that, you know, I wouldn't write today. Like, I just find them insufferable and I.

01:33:55
Case
Like, I might put them as characters, but, like, I wouldn't make them my protagonist ever, because it's. Because I can't relate to them as much as I used to. But, like, man, like, think about being like a teenager or being like in your 20s and, like. And saying the man as much as one did before you'd, like, settle down a little bit. I say fuck the man for different reasons and in different ways.

01:34:19
Pat
Real quick. I know where this is run long. And I actually. But I want to, because I was curious and I wish I could guess, but I'm looking at it right now, so I can't guess unless you both have pulled it up. I pulled up The Wizards top 200 comic book characters of all time list. You want to take cracks at the top 10 or top five?

01:34:35
Case
Batman's going to be somewhere in the top two.

01:34:38
Keith
Spider Man, Wolverine.

01:34:42
Pat
So you just named the top three.

01:34:44
Case
Yeah, yeah.

01:34:45
Pat
Wolverine's at one, Wolverine's at one, Batman's at two, Spiderman's at three.

01:34:50
Keith
It's going to be a bad guy. Magneto.

01:34:53
Pat
Magneto's at nine.

01:34:54
Case
Joker.

01:34:56
Pat
Joker is at five. Immediately, we're missing four, six, seven, eight, and ten.

01:35:03
Case
Jesse Cosmo.

01:35:04
Pat
Six, seven.

01:35:04
Keith
Did we say Superman?

01:35:07
Pat
Superman's four.

01:35:08
Keith
Oh, okay.

01:35:08
Pat
You did. Because they didn't like six, seven, eight, nine. You know, you need six, seven, eight, and 10.

01:35:12
Keith
Let me ask you this. Is there a woman in the 10?

01:35:17
Pat
No. Which is kind of fucked up. Wait, let's play the game of. Well, let's get the top 10. And then we're going to play the game of how many does it take to get a female character?

01:35:27
Keith
That's depressing.

01:35:27
Case
It's not.

01:35:28
Pat
It's bad, but it's not.

01:35:29
Keith
What year was this, by the way?

01:35:30
Pat
Jesse Custer is 14.

01:35:32
Keith
Case.

01:35:32
Case
Okay. Because I was like, they were obsessed with. With Vertigo books back in the day. Like, and so, like, Jesse Custer. And then, like, Dream, I would imagine would be.

01:35:40
Keith
Dream would be up there. Do you know what year this was?

01:35:46
Pat
I assume it'd be Morpheus for dream, right? At 17.

01:35:48
Keith
Yeah.

01:35:49
Pat
Yeah. I don't know when they put this out from.

01:35:52
Keith
Why the Last Man.

01:35:55
Pat
Yorick.

01:35:55
Keith
Oh, man.

01:35:56
Pat
I come through. I read that whole series. Ne.

01:35:58
Keith
Completely. They at the top. I'm looking at comics of the wizard era. They put him at number one. Or they put that book at number one. So. Okay.

01:36:05
Pat
York's not. I don't know.

01:36:06
Keith
Yeah, don't worry about it.

01:36:09
Pat
670.

01:36:09
Keith
Is spawn on the list?

01:36:11
Pat
Spawn might be on the list. Not in the top 10.

01:36:13
Case
Not in the top 10. So we're gonna throw out some of the.

01:36:16
Pat
The classics.

01:36:16
Case
We're gonna throw out a Flash and a Daredevil.

01:36:19
Pat
Nope, neither.

01:36:20
Case
Neither. Okay.

01:36:21
Pat
Daredevil 21. I'm, like, scanning. I'm looking at a huge, like, mat. It's all, like, jammed together. Someone's, like, scanning for words. Spiders at 38. Spider Jerusalem, by the way.

01:36:33
Keith
Of course.

01:36:34
Pat
Above Punisher. Above Thor. Above Hal Jordan.

01:36:37
Keith
Mr.

01:36:37
Pat
Fantastic.

01:36:37
Keith
Captain America.

01:36:39
Pat
Captain is.

01:36:40
Keith
Cap.

01:36:40
Pat
Is seven.

01:36:41
Keith
Rorschach, of course.

01:36:42
Pat
Six.

01:36:43
Keith
They fucking love Rorschach. What are we missing one?

01:36:46
Pat
Are you missing eight and ten?

01:36:49
Keith
Publishers.

01:36:52
Pat
Publishers, yeah.

01:36:53
Case
Who published which.

01:36:56
Pat
Actually, I'm being. I'm out of myself as a fake fan. Dark Horse is the eight spot.

01:37:01
Keith
It's Hellboy.

01:37:02
Pat
Yep. Yeah, I almost said Mike Mignola, but that would be too. And then.

01:37:11
Keith
We should definitely do a break.

01:37:13
Case
If he's looking it up. It's not Marvel or dc, so.

01:37:15
Pat
No, it is. It is. It's dc. I just was looking at something else. It's a DC character.

01:37:21
Keith
Character.

01:37:22
Case
Dc.

01:37:22
Pat
It's a DC character who is extremely popular with, like, comics. Comics fans. But I would argue most mainstream people who even love, like, the DCU are completely on. They're not very aware of this person.

01:37:38
Keith
Swamp Thing.

01:37:40
Pat
No, that's a good.

01:37:41
Keith
That.

01:37:41
Pat
That. I think that hits what I was talking about. But no Animal Man. Nope. More mainstream than that.

01:37:48
Keith
Constantine.

01:37:49
Pat
Yep. Okay.

01:37:50
Keith
Yeah. Okay.

01:37:51
Pat
Also, Yorick is 23.

01:37:53
Keith
Okay. Yeah. That's fun.

01:37:56
Case
Yeah. And that gets a Vertigo in the. In the top 10.

01:37:59
Pat
It is. And we. It takes us to number 13 to get a female character. Kitty Pryde.

01:38:06
Keith
Well deserved.

01:38:06
Case
Oh, Wizard. Oh, Wizard. Back in the day.

01:38:08
Keith
I know, right? But anyways. Yeah.

01:38:11
Case
Anyway, so this was a fun revisit. I'm really glad that we're doing this. So, Pat, you're our guest on this episode. Where can People find you and follow you.

01:38:22
Pat
Hey, I am at the Pat Edwards anywhere I've got a presence. So Blue Sky Instagram. I don't really fuck with Twitter anymore because fuck that guy, right?

01:38:39
Case
Fuck that man.

01:38:40
Pat
Yes. Yeah. And my website's thepattedwards.com I am a writer and I am a game designer. I co own a company called Storytellers Forge. We create and publish third party TTRPG campaign books and novels and you should check us out. We've got a cool Discord. We also have a podcast called the Stforge Podcast that Case has been a guest co host a couple of times with me on is getting edited now. I'm really excited. For our most upcoming episode I interviewed Don Marshall, which If you're on TikTok and you're a Lord of the Rings fan, you've probably come across Don, the obscure Lord of the Rings facts guy. He published a biography of Tolkien. 100 vignettes from his life. Very interesting, very good reads coming out very soon. Check that out.

01:39:32
Keith
Nice.

01:39:33
Pat
Yeah.

01:39:34
Case
And then as for us, Keith, where can people find you and follow you?

01:39:37
Keith
Yeah, so I am the host of Certain POV comic book show. We have issues on Blue Sky. You can find it at weaveissues, Psky Social. You can find me at Keith has issues. Same thing. I don't use my personal account as much, but I plan on doing so more often hopefully. And then also we have issues has Rachel Lee went to Instagram. I finally made an Instagram account because too many comic book people are on Instagram for me not to. And I'm pulling it up because I still don't have it memorized. It's we have Issues podcast on Instagram because someone took my name. But other than that, the best place to find me is on our Discord, which I'm sure Case is going to talk about in a moment.

01:40:16
Case
Yeah, the Discord is a great place to find all of us. Pat. You have to tag if you want him to actually respond to anything he's got.

01:40:25
Pat
I'm in too many Discords. I have a whole discord. I'm like boss. One of the bosses of. And that's a whole thing too.

01:40:30
Case
Yeah, no, totally. But yeah, the Certain POV Discord is a great place to come hang out and talk about nerdy things. You can find a link in the show notes or on our website@ certainpow.com as for me, you can find the stuff I work on@ certainpow.com I host men of Steel and another pass which are two podcasts. One is a Superman and Superman Adjacent podcast. The other is a movie analysis show and then I do videos on the certain POV media YouTube channel so you can find me there working on all those kind of things.

01:41:00
Case
And if you want to find me on socials you can find me at Case Aiken on most social media platforms except for Instagram where I'm holding on 4 dear life to my aim screen name from high school which is quetzalcoatl5q u e t Z A L C o a T L5 because I was pretentious in high school as evidenced by the fact that I was obsessed with Trans Metropolitan.

01:41:21
Keith
Awesome.

01:41:21
Case
Yeah. So on that note we this was a good conversation. Pat, thank you again for joining us for this one. Keith, thank you for joining me on this adventure and yeah. But until next time, this was the word from tomorrow. See you next week. Cpov certainpov.com.