Transmetropolitan Wrap Up - An Interview with Darick Robertson
In the series finale of The Word From Tomorrow, Case and Keith close out their Transmetropolitan read-through with a very special guest: Darick Robertson, co-creator and artist of Transmetropolitan. The conversation covers the origins of the book, working with Warren Ellis, designing Spider Jerusalem, building the City, balancing satire with sincerity, and how a comic from 1997 somehow keeps feeling less like fiction every year.
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⏱️ YouTube Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:36 Introducing Darick Robertson
02:11 Keith's First Impressions of Transmetropolitan
03:22 Creating Transmetropolitan
08:52 Working with Warren Ellis
14:33 The City as a Character
16:12 Designing the City
21:51 Creating Spider Jerusalem
27:28 Transmetropolitan's Lasting Legacy
29:24 Drawing Dialogue-Heavy Comics
35:26 When Fiction Becomes Reality
38:46 Designing the Supporting Cast
44:15 Looking Back at the Artwork
48:48 Balancing Comedy and Politics
54:58 Are Readers Misinterpreting the Series?
57:39 Transmetropolitan's Modern Relevance
01:03:12 "Another Cold Morning" and the Heart of the Series
01:05:00 Comics in the Digital Age
01:08:13 Did We Predict the Future?
01:11:01 Keith's Final Thoughts
01:14:12 Case Reflects on the Series
01:20:47 Where to Find Darick Robertson
01:21:51 Plugs and Closing
Transcription
00:00
Keith
Foreign.
00:08
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Word From Tomorrow podcast.
00:12
Case
I'm case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Keiths Lehtinen.
00:15
Keith
Hello, everybody.
00:17
Case
Keiths. We have made it to the end of the whole series. We are looking back from the future at the Word From Tomorrow.
00:27
Keith
Back to the future. Yes, we are. And it's been a ride. And I'm really happy with how we're going to be wrapping this up.
00:36
Case
I can think of no better way to wrap up our conversation about Trans Metropolitans than to discuss the series with one of the creators of it. So today we are joined for a recap of the series by Darick Robertson.
00:53
Darick
Hi, everybody.
00:54
Case
Darick, it is so great having you on. We first touched base years ago on my other show, Men of Steel, talking about boys. I think that was actually when the first season was coming out. So it's been a little while.
01:06
Darick
Yeah, it's been a beat. That's why I couldn't remember that it was us that has the fumble with the audio on that one, which was funny.
01:14
Case
Yeah, no, we has this epic interview that then didn't get recorded. And you were.
01:20
Darick
I didn't know I was supposed to be recording myself.
01:23
Case
I didn't make it clear. And it. It was my bad. My bad.
01:27
Darick
I'm used to this where it's like I just get on and talk, you know.
01:29
Case
Yeah. Well, you're awesome enough to come back on then. And then you were awesome enough when I reached out about us doing a recap of Trans Metropolitans to agree to join us for a conversation about it.
01:41
Darick
I'm happy to be here. I really love that book. And so I'm always happy to talk about it.
01:46
Case
Yeah. Yeah. So this has been Keith's first experience with it. It's been my many times experience with it many times. Just in the context of this show, I ended up just rereading the whole thing because it was great. So we're just so glad to have you on because we wanted to talk to you about this really cool book. Keiths, I'm going to give you the chance to take the first swing.
02:11
Keith
Sure. Yeah. I do want to say, of course, as a new reader to it, I really enjoyed it quite a bit. One of the things that I, when we stepped into this, I has an idea of what it was going to be about. And to me, it was the thing. Journalism. I've said this a lot in our show. Journalism is a very important thing to me, especially in this day and age, more than ever.
02:41
Darick
Boy, were watching. I liked It. When Terrence Metropolitans was fiction.
02:45
Keith
Right? That's right.
02:46
Case
Yeah.
02:46
Keith
Literally, when case pitched this show to me, it was with the Word prescient was the Word he used. Like, this is a very prescient thing right now. And I was like, oh, you're silly. Then I read it. I'm like, oh, he's. No, this is. This is happening.
03:01
Case
Yeah.
03:02
Keith
So, yeah, I just wanted to start off by just kind of like, expressing that, like, as somebody who absolutely adores journalism, and you don't get to see journalism a lot in fiction, much less in comics beyond, like, the occasional, like, Marvel Frontline or Superman, Daily Planet special or something like that.
03:17
Case
Right.
03:18
Keith
Yeah. That's the first thing I just wanted to throw out is just to thank you for that, because I just.
03:22
Darick
That really, that is all respect to Warrens, because the thing we has in common was Hunter S. Thompson. I has read his books and was a fan. But Warrens was very dialed in the 90s of what was going on and was following a few different journalists. And, you know, his idea to create a journalist that lives in the future was what he pitched at me. He just didn't think I'd stick around and draw the whole series. And that changed the direction of the entire thing.
03:52
Keith
So that's. That's actually a really great question. So you weren't. And, like, you weren't necessarily intended for the whole run originally?
03:59
Darick
No, it just. Because the way he envisioned the book originally, there was another series that Vertigo has published. This was going to be for a line that died called Helix. And Helix was only around for our first six or seven issues. What changed was that they has this 2020 visions book that they has done at Vertigo. They, meaning the creators, which was really quite good, but it would change art every three. Every three issues or every arc. So Warrens originally intended this Trans Metropolitans to be a book that would change artists with each arc, and I was going to be the first. But when he told me the idea I has already, I was prescient enough about Warren's writing that when there's that Word again. When I first worked with him over at Malibu Ultraverse on kind of a dog book in their.
04:53
Darick
Not literally, but kind of a failing. The whole line was going down, and the whole company was about to get gobbled up and digested by a Marvel, so they could just have their coloring department. But we worked on a book called Ultraforce. That's when we first worked together. And we did three issues of that. But when I read those first scripts, I was like, these are not Great characters. And yet this guy is making them really interesting. And this is not like this plot is interesting. It's dynamic, it's got the mystery, there's politics. And he was doing this with a book, with a guy that has bones on his face. And you know, like, you ever watch the Ultraforce cartoon? It was short lived. It's terrible. And I.
05:44
Case
On Amazon, actually.
05:46
Darick
That's amazing. Another thing that I just like many of those characters I design and like I didn't get any credit. Nobody just, hey, we'll just take that, thank you. Hey, that's fine. Like I created, I designed Zip Zap. But anyway. And then the most embarrassing rendition of a black kid ever. But I digress. But I read Warren's scripts for those and I was like, there's a scene, it's kind of a throwaway scene that they were just discussing something in a room and one of the guy. But the way Warrens describe them is like they're having coffee and bacon sandwiches. And it wasn't the kind of thing I could draw to make it clear that it was a bacon sandwich.
06:31
Darick
But all of a sudden I could smell that room, you know, like, so when I went about creating that room or creating that scene, I was so. It was so tangible to me that I thought, what a great detail. Bacon sandwiches, you know, and yeah, you know, it might have been just what he was having for breakfast and just wrote it in there. But it was a smart detail and he did that and it was a good series. I mean, like we ended up. I ended up having a lot of fun drawing that. And so I called him and said, look, if you ever want to do a monthly book together, please let me know because I would be all over that. And he said, oh, thanks. Yeah, I really like working with you too. And that was that.
07:14
Darick
And so we did like this one shot for Valiant that became a claim before it went back to being Valiant, called Man of the Atom, which was sort of a solar book. And I didn't know it at the time, but he was kind of testing to see. Like he was Fabian Isa, who's a great friend of mine, put me on that book with him. But Warrens wanted to work with me on that because he wanted to see how I would handle like talking scenes or stuff that didn't have a lot of action or superheroes in it. And he felt like that was a good test ground for that kind of a script. And so when he saw what I did with it, he was especially impressed with this big library that I Drew, if memory serves.
07:55
Darick
And that made him really want to reach out to me about Trans Metropolitans, which was just a nugget of an idea when he first came to me with it.
08:03
Keith
Nice. Yeah. If there's two people that remember Ultraforce, it's me and case. Like, we love our obscure failed comic printings. Like, it's probably the thing we talk about the most, to be honest with you.
08:16
Darick
Yeah, don't get. Don't get me on that, because I, like, I still. I still have a soft spot in my heart for what that could have been.
08:22
Keith
Yeah, no, definitely some missed opportunities there. But, yeah, no, that's just really interesting. And I love that you mentioned Fabian. Just to be transparent, Fabian's one of my favorite people in comics.
08:33
Darick
He's just a wonderful person, and we're still very good friends.
08:35
Keith
Yeah.
08:37
Darick
One of these days, we're going to get back together, back to collaborating on something, but our schedules don't seem to allow it. Good. Problems?
08:44
Keith
Yeah.
08:45
Case
Yeah. Being busy is better than being slow.
08:47
Darick
I'm way busy, and I really am happy about it.
08:52
Case
Well, on that note, so you bring up working with Warrens. So what was it like working with Warrens? What kind of scripts did he put forth? How much freedom did you have to reinterpret things?
09:01
Darick
I always kind of hate that question. What was it like? Because it was like working with Warrens. You know, I don't know how to. I don't know how quite to answer. What is it like? If you maybe, like, how is it.
09:14
Keith
Different than other writers that you work with? Is there.
09:17
Darick
Well, I think I just described that by telling you what Ultraforce and reading those scripts was like. But the thing that was significant about working with Warrens on that, because you asked about a script, is we has kind of a. I was, surprisingly, a tough sell to Helix, which was also being overseen by the same people that oversaw Vertigo at the time. And they wanted me to audition for Trans Metropolitans because the person in question was convinced that I was only capable of doing superhero work, and they didn't see me fitting on a book like that. And it's fair. I was doing a lot of Spider man and stuff like that at the time. Like these a bunch of Spider man miniseries and villains and just come off of new warriors.
10:03
Darick
And, you know, so that was a fair assumption, but at the same time, they didn't realize, like, my heart, like, the beating heart of what I like to do is, like, weird stuff. Like, I might. I started my career doing anthropomorphic book called Space Beaver that I wrote and drew as a teenager. So, you know, and I also read a lot of underground comics when I was coming up. So like alongside my superhero stuff, I was reading like the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers and you know, stuff like that you could. And Robert Cr. So. And I loved loving Rockets with a. But it was. It's Jaime Hernandez. I love his work and Love and Rockets was just incredible. And so that's why Jaime ended up doing some Transmat covers.
10:50
Darick
As I pretty much begged him when I met him at a con once, I'm like, will you please? And he got talked into it.
10:56
Keith
So.
10:57
Darick
I mean, even Yelena is kind of roughly based on Hopi, so. Or inspired by her look. Working with Warrens was a lot of fun because they didn't want me on the book originally. Warrens fought for me, Stuart Moore fought for me. And they said they wanted me to audition and I was, I don't know, feeling my oats in those days because I did have a lot offers and I was saying, you know, which is a good place to be considering how bad the marketplace was at the time. But I said, look, I, I literally have too much work. Just, just do an audition. If you don't want me on the book, then I'll tell you what. And this was my compromise. I said, I'll do the first three issues because it's three issue story arc. I do the first three issues, design the characters.
11:41
Darick
If you're unhappy with what I'm doing, I will walk away and you just pay me for my designs and my copyright, you know, but you guys can go on your own way with the different artists at that point because it's just. I don't really have time to audition. They also wanted to give me a script from another artist. I'm sorry, another writer for a book called Vermilion that was in line. And I'm like, this is nothing like Trans Metropolitans. So if I draw this, it's not going to show you what I can do over here. And I was actually kind of geared up and excited at this point. I designed the character and bunch of stuff. So basically they agreed to that. And I turned in like the first four or five pages and I got my contract like immediately.
12:23
Darick
So I was very happy that my audition was, you know, I, I was able to walk my talk. But what was really nice about working with Warrens at the time, like I said, he has my back. And he also said, if you're going to stay on the whole series, I'll make you co creator and we'll make this thing together and that's what we did. He also began to trust me more and more. So the first few scripts were really detailed and explicit. But as the scripts went on, he would just start writing, you know, one sentence to describe a splash page. Like give me a big shot of the city, make it loud and noisy. And I was like, okay, I know what to do with that.
13:05
Darick
And then you'd see one of my crazy splash pages that has all the signage and the cars and Brian Posane cameo and you know, just all this stuff all over the place. But that was just me. Like in those days I would just go stream of consciousness. I would just start sketching and let myself go, you know, and I loved it. There was no wrong in that world for me. And I was living in San Francisco at the time. I was, you know, still a young single guy or you know, has not married, didn't have any kids. And so my. I would stay up all night and watch late night TV in the 90s. This is pre Internet. And I would just. Stuff that would come across the TV in the middle of the night would make its way onto a page somehow.
13:51
Darick
Like some weird ass ad or some stupid idea I has that I would like write it on a wall, you know. But it was fun. It's what kind of. Because I was living in a city, it was able. I was able to make that city come alive. And I understood and felt what it was like to be in a city and that was really good. And then over the course of those five years, I would actually end up going through every major life change and living in Europe and living in New York and having my first kid. My parents passed away, it's like got married. All these things happened to me while I was working on that book and I did every issue anyway.
14:33
Keith
I love that you said that you're talking about the city.
14:36
Case
Yeah.
14:37
Keith
We have a question later. So I'm going to jump ahead case and get a good spot. We especially myself pointed out that the city itself is a character in this story. So like, it's great to hear you talk about it coming alive. Did you see it as a character while you're drawing?
14:53
Darick
Absolutely. Personality? Absolutely. I wanted. What I really wanted you as a reader to feel is that you were visiting somewhere. I really wanted you to feel immersed in that world because Warrens would have some very specific ideas and then other times I would just have to make Spider walking somewhere or you know, figure out what the background would look like. But I always found something fun to do with it. Because Warrens has such a great vision of what this city was like that It infected my imagination. And again, the more I worked on it, the less he told me what to do. And I wish that the deadlines hadn't been so tight because I would have done a lot more. I would have loved to ink the book myself and really just, you know, put a lot more into it.
15:36
Darick
Although Rodney Ramos saved my ass. If I hadn't worked with Rodney and Rodney hadn't been as good as he is, that book would not be what it is. So no disrespect to Rodney. If you know my work right now, you'll see that I tend to ink myself more than not. So.
15:51
Keith
Yeah, we definitely noted when Rodney was inking and what a great compliment he was to you. That was actually a focus one of our episodes, actually.
15:58
Darick
Yeah, we were, we good friends. We still are. Just don't see each other because we're not working together. He's on the other coast. But I mean I always like seeing Rodney and were good friends and at the time were really synergetic. So it really shows in the work.
16:11
Keith
Yeah, definitely.
16:12
Case
Yeah. So let's talk about like designs that you, you brought up that you did for Spider, for the city itself and for all the characters. I mean, what. When were talking like we'll start with the city. So we, I, I was surprised to hear you reference San Francisco so much in terms of it because we talked a lot about New York, we talked a lot about Chicago as influences for it. But, but what was you, what was in your brain when you were crafting the, this like future city state.
16:43
Darick
I was inspired by things that I enjoyed like Judge Dread and things like that. So I wanted, but were really clear going in. Warrens was really clear. Like I don't want to do flying cars. Like that is so overdone that. But you know, we can have. So we thought of crazy like, oh, there's a certain kind of cab you can take, but it'll go like 800 miles an hour or some crazy speed. And they have dedicated lanes for it that aren't terribly well protected. But other things, like I just started thinking about the city as a place you live and things that I would have liked to, you know, if I was king for a day, what I would do. So like those archways you see that have full on stop signs. Yeah, it's a wall.
17:31
Darick
Like that was just something I thought of, you know, But I Like, the way they look. So I just thought of these archways. Like, what do they do? And I thought, okay, well, if you run that light, it's really obvious, and they'll take your picture. And, you know, then, not knowing, they'd end up coming up with some of these things. A lot of the technology we thought of has come to be. But I. Not in the form of an archway, though. But I like the idea that you did a whole wall, so you can't miss a light, you know?
17:57
Keith
Right.
17:58
Darick
And you know that I like stuff like that. So for me, it was like having lived in the city, and I, you know, I would observe things. Steve Chung is a lovely guy who, years ago, would write a letter to pretty much every DC comic. And I remember showing him the early pencils at a convention at WonderCon when it was in Oakland. And he was really excited about it. But we would get letters from him. But I also found out that he was. He'd see, like, all these letters and all these comics, and I'm like, somebody has locked poor Steve Chung in a basement. And they. And all. He's surviving. He's keeping his sanity by writing letters to comic books. Somebody should let Steve Chung out. Free Steve Chung.
18:44
Darick
And so I wrote that on the sidewalk because I would often walk around San Francisco or other cities I'd travel to and visit for conventions, and I'd always notice that there'd be something written on a sidewalk or, like, a justice for, you know, Manny. And I'd have no idea because there was no Internet at the time. It was just something that was going on that clearly somebody was very upset about it because they were graffiti, you know, to get the Word out.
19:12
Keith
Yeah.
19:12
Darick
And. But I never knew. There was no context for it. And I thought that was so interesting that I wanted to bring. That was, like, a city element that I brought into Trans Metropolitans, that nobody understood who free what. Who Steve Chung was or why he should be freed. Except Steve Chung, who loved it. Steve was like, oh, that's great. You've made me famous. And so he still brags on it to this day. Yeah.
19:37
Case
We'll have to check the tape. And I'm pretty sure we spent some time trying to figure out that one.
19:42
Keith
One design choice that I really liked is the several times we see benches with hostile architecture.
19:51
Darick
Yes.
19:51
Keith
To prevent homeless sleeping.
19:53
Darick
And you're in the. That was an idea of mine. That was an idea of mine, too. That, like, that they would turn red hot at night, you know? And then I started. I never got around to, like, revisiting that idea. But I actually wanted to do a Find his moment where there were a bunch of people huddled around one of those benches for warmth.
20:11
Keith
Oh, that's so cool.
20:14
Darick
You couldn't lay down on them, but you could warm yourself by it. But, you know, because they would turn red hot as a way of keeping people from sleeping on them.
20:22
Keith
Yeah.
20:22
Darick
But then I could, you know, people utilize. You know, people are efficient. They'll figure out a way.
20:26
Keith
But,.
20:29
Darick
Yeah, that was just one of those things that was a throwaway thing that I just liked because, again, you know, homelessness is a problem, you know, so. And that's why the cat. That's where the cat came from was. I was imagining that in the design piece. If you look at the original. The absolute number one, you can see the original drawing of Spider Jerusalem, who's one of the few characters that popped out of my head, almost fully realized we hadn't even, like, landed on his permanent name at the time I did the drawing, but the very first drawing of Spider. Spider is pretty much Spider, except I didn't want to do the tattoos. I was resistant to it. And he's like, no, that. And Warrens really wanted it, and that was efficient.
21:08
Darick
Oh, excuse me, viewing public, but I happen to notice something I found the other day, which you might get a kick out of since we're talking trans metropolitan. I found this guy in a box. I made this back in 1997. I used to take this with me because I would like to go to friends houses and work, and I never knew where I'd be. So this is a map of all this tattoo. So that's how I would keep it consistent. That used to be a space jam. Michael Jordan.
21:40
Keith
That is so cool. I really like it.
21:42
Darick
So I thought you'd get a kick out of that, because I haven't seen this guy in a long time. And when he popped up, I was like, hey, it's my old Spider.
21:51
Case
That's awesome. Well, so that segues pretty well into talking about Spider's design. So you said it like Athena just burst forth from your head.
22:00
Darick
Yeah, I mean, I has a very clear. The only thing Warrens gave me, his guidelines, is that he was bald and he wore a black suit with no shirt, and he was covered in tattoos. That was. That was Warren's entire description to me, and I said, okay, got it. And I like to make Spider's body change throughout the series. So sometimes he's a little chubby. Sometimes he's really thin because he does a Lot of drugs.
22:27
Keith
Yeah.
22:28
Darick
And you never know what you know. Maybe that one makes him bloat, you know. So I tried to treat him like he was a real thing, but I thought he would be. The way Warrens originally described this, what were going to do, I. I didn't imagine him having luxury apartments or being a celebrity. I imagined him being on the run. So I figured he kind of shaved himself down all the time. So the first version I drew of him, I gave him like these weird piercings that like were magnetically inspired, that they would hover like, you know, so like rather than an earring that dangled, you'd have a BB that would just kind of hang there magnetically and stay stanced. It'll probably be in your mall next week because I said it right. But anyway, malls, listen to me, old man malls.
23:17
Darick
Anyway, but that was just that was my thinking and that he would shave himself down and more is like now piercings. And he was right at the time, like 90s is like piercings are way over done right now. And tattooing has not quite caught on as much as it would. So that was. Or be as mainstream as it is now. I. So I was resistant to do the tattoos, but I, I folded because I knew that it'd be a lot of work. But I did. And the glasses were an idea that I has come up with for a character for Ultraverse that I lost my creator credit on. And so I kind of took the idea back and put them in a Spider. And I. But it was. But Warrens was like, what's with these weird glasses?
24:14
Darick
And I was like, oh, well, one of them, one of the lenses takes photographs and he's like, huh, okay, they're weird. And then so literally the first reaction, you see a Spider when the maker spits them out and they're weird looking. He's like, what the hell are these? You know, that was literally Warren's opinion of them.
24:33
Keith
Right.
24:33
Darick
So it was kind of. That was kind of a funny like, you know, elbowing me.
24:38
Case
Yeah. Life imitating art right there and then.
24:41
Darick
Yeah. And then. But then the cat was. I just threw that into the design drawing and. But I was thinking, okay, in the big city, I saw a lot of strays. It's the future. Who knows what the hell are in dumpsters? They're eating out of dumpsters. They're having mutant kittens. The kittens get stronger, they survive. You just got these weird looking mutant cats and dogs walking around. And that's just commonplace. But, you know, so I drew the three eyed two faced cat and the with. He has five legs in the original drawing I did. But then Warren's like, oh, that's cool, let's make it his pet. And I was like, great. So we would do that. Like we would throw ideas balls back and forth and you know, and we. He. Warrens was a very. Yes. And kind of guy and that was.
25:28
Darick
Made him a lot of fun to work with.
25:30
Keith
Nice. Yeah. The glasses are like the most iconic design thing I can think of.
25:34
Darick
Which. Who would have known? Like. Yeah, yeah. I mean the fact that it turned out into. It turned out to be an iconic thing. The very first script of that Warrens did, he put a little three eyed smiley icon on. But it was like they called them widgets I think at the time. And it was just this little teeny tiny thing on the COVID of the front piece that said Trans Metropolitans. But I liked it so much that I made it like a stamp or a punctuation point at the end of every issue. And I would try to tweet, I would tweak it so it fit theme of what you has just read, you know.
26:09
Keith
Yeah. And that was cool. That was a really great way to like, especially when you're reading a trade sometimes it's not super clear when the issue ends and I'm looking for that every time. And it's really great. Yeah. So. But no, that was just. It fit perfectly.
26:22
Darick
So I didn't know this at the time but I found out years later that Trans Metropolitans actually started the whole collecting a series while it's going trade paperback thing. Transmit was the first because when we moved from Helix to Vertigo, they put out this three issue, first three issues as a small trade called Back on the street. And that thing sold like crazy for years. And they. DC realized like, oh, people will buy collections of existing series just to catch up. And so they started doing it with all their titles because of the success of that.
27:00
Keith
So that's pretty cool actually. Yeah.
27:02
Darick
Little, little fun fact about Transmed, I, I has learned later on, I'm like, really? We were the first. They said yeah. Because the Back on the street sold so well.
27:11
Case
That's crazy. Yeah, I have that addition. That's why when we. You have talked about like which issues we've been reviewing, I've been like, well it's really weird because like initially it was three issues for the Back on the street trade and then like then they redid the collections so that it was all like standardized six issue collection.
27:28
Darick
It was just, it was just that the idea that we would get people onto the monthly book and. Which never really did very well. It's very like Coen Brothers film. Like, nobody paid any attention to it when it was in theaters. But then, you know, years later, everybody can quote Big Lebowski. You know, the transmets been like that.
27:47
Case
Yeah, Well, I mean, I was an example where, like, I started with the trades and then, like, caught up to probably around, like, issue, like 45 is where I, like, jumped on, like, buying the.
27:58
Darick
We just almost got cancelled so many times. It was hilarious. And I'm sure if I, you know, if I faltered on a single issue would have been justification.
28:08
Case
So talk.
28:09
Darick
We went through more editors than we. We kept the art team together, but went to, like, nine editors.
28:14
Keith
It was.
28:15
Darick
It was insane.
28:16
Case
Yeah. So talking about the glasses, I. How do you feel looking at the modern world with. With things like meta Ray Bans and all these, like, smart glasses becoming more of, like, in vogue?
28:29
Darick
Yeah. We were ahead of our time. I wish I has copyrighted them. I wish I has got it. I went out and got a patent. Had no idea that I really never thought that 90% of what I was dreaming of would never be a thing, you know, but it's just. It's been. It's been. It's. Here we are. Exactly. There was actually a guy that was out in the street. I think I took a picture of it. I can't share with your readers or your viewers right now, but I found a picture of a guy who was doing a review of the VR headsets that Apple was putting out.
29:07
Case
Yeah.
29:07
Darick
And he was out in the street with, like, a power pack to the thing walking down the street wearing this. And I swear to God, he looks like he walked right out of the early pages of When Spider Arrives in the City to the point that it put them side by side, and it was uncanny.
29:24
Case
So you brought up that they were concerned about you doing a book that was as conversation heavy, and that Solar man of the Atom was kind of like a test run run for that. Yeah. There obviously is a lot of, like, dialogue in this book. You know, it's. It's not like it's about journalism, and it's about people collecting stories and repackaging them. Yeah. What were sort of, like. Did you have, like, rules for keeping, like, these heavy dialogue scenes interesting? Like, do. Do you have, like, thoughts about how you make.
29:55
Darick
Oh, no, actually, I love dialogue scenes because I'm a movie fan, and, you know, good movies tend to have heavy dialogue. So I would study film and go, well, how are they getting. How is this interesting? How is this. You know, where do they put the camera in this shot? And how can I use the lighting or what can I do to make this conversation have the weight that it needs by tweaking, you know, just something in the background. I always think about the first. I think it was issue two or three, when he meets Fred Christ. And that conversation like that was a good one to show a lot of. I don't know, just play with the camera and make. And make the characters interesting. I also really love.
30:44
Darick
Kevin McGuire, is a good friend of mine now, but back in the day, I loved his Justice League and him and JM Madison, rest in peace, but their Justice League was very dialogue heavy. But it was. First it was Kevin McGuire and then the amazing Adam Hughes who took over for him. And that was about the time I broke in and got to draw a few issues. But they would do such a wonderful job. And Brian Ballin, my absolute favorite artist, is very underrated for his facial expressions, but. And Dave Stevens is another guy who could make a dialogue scene interesting. And it really just comes down to what the artist is willing to do to carry the same paint. And if it's good dialogue, you can do a lot with it.
31:28
Darick
And in Warren's case, he was an incredible dialogue writer, so changing people's facial expressions, giving them something funny to do. If it wasn't mentioned, I would just kind of play with it. You know, it's been a while since I've looked at my own work on that, and I did a lot of it really fast, so I'd have to kind of go back through. And I always do. And when I do, I cringe because I'm like, yeah, I want to fix that. I always want to fix everything. It's like turning my editor brain on fire.
31:58
Keith
That's funny, because you mentioned it was like a Coen brothers movie, and the Coen brothers more than anybody, made conversations interesting. That's what they're.
32:06
Darick
Yeah, absolutely. That's a perfect example.
32:08
Keith
Yeah.
32:10
Darick
How much of Big Lebowski is about just things they said in the bowling alley to each other, Right?
32:15
Keith
Yeah, yeah. Fargo is. Is a murder mystery. People talking to each other. Yeah, yeah. That's really.
32:22
Darick
They were really in pieces. Just how they got everybody to do that wonderful North Dakota accent.
32:27
Keith
Yeah, exactly. No, that makes a lot of sense. I like that.
32:33
Case
One of the things that you did do to sort of make every page be really interesting was pack it full of detail, and you've referenced sort of like your late night kind of binges of TV while working, drawing inspiration there. Like, how did you decide, like what to include versus when to be more judicious with it all? Like, there's so many spots where it's just so much information that you're just putting on.
32:59
Darick
Well, that was the world. That was me trying to convey the world that Warrens has described to me. So it needed to feel overwhelming. Otherwise I don't think it would have worked. You know, that's why when Spider is up in the mountain and there's not a lot around him, it makes a lot of sense, you know, because the city is so overbearing, it's so overwhelming that it's just a constant crush of the senses. And if I felt if I didn't reveal that to the reader as best I could and capture that element that Warrens wanted in there, then you wouldn't relate to Spider the way you do. So it was a labor of love in a lot of ways because there was no wrong in that world. And I just kind of like that.
33:45
Darick
Anyway, I was, you know, I'm very different now, but when I was in my 20s, I just has non stop brain and a lot of energy. So it's like I would go to a restaurant even after doing, you know, four pages and doodle on the placemat. I mean, it still will, but not as often, you know, but I, I just has a non stop need to draw. And so having a place to put all that energy in a world where it was like anything goes, it was a lot of fun. I really liked it. It was, for me, that was one of the happier experiences of working on that book. Also, like the way the script was given to me, I'd get four or five pages at a time, sometimes I wouldn't even know what the rest of the issue was going to be.
34:30
Darick
But I has X amount of time to work on four or five pages. I was very fast pencil in those days, so I could have knocked out four or five pages probably over a day or two. But as it was, if I was waiting on script, I would just keep putting detail into the pages I has to work on. Which is also what kept pushing me to like, hey, I want to eat these so I can just finish them off and not hand them over to Rodney so he has to do all this crazy detail in a pinch because, you know, but they wouldn't let me. Yeah, every time I convince an editor of it, they, he'd leave. They or she leave.
35:06
Case
So.
35:08
Darick
They always kept wanting to bring on a fill in artist. I'm like, the scripts aren't ready. What are they gonna try? Yeah, yeah, like, you know, if Warrens has like six scripts sitting here. Yeah, go for it. But I'm waiting on script, you know.
35:26
Case
So with all these background details that you've inserted and we've talked a little bit about the prescience of the world, what's it feel like now with so many of these throwaway details coming true and then the bigger parts about Trans Metropolitans kind of coming true.
35:47
Darick
I'm not happy about it at all. This was supposed. That world scared me. I used to kind of defend it where people would go like it's a dystopia. I go, nah, it's not really. You can go get a cheeseburger or eat in a restaurant and walk down the street, not die. You know, it's not escape from New York, you know.
36:06
Keith
Yeah.
36:06
Darick
But at the same time, like, it's just scary because it's overwhelming. But I grew up with a big fear of big cities because of those movies. I remember the first time I went to New York, I really thought I was going to be like, I thought it was gonna be like the warriors, you know, like trying to get from the subway to my hotel and have to take on the baseball Furies. And you know, then I went to Central park and it was gorgeous. I'm like, this is great.
36:31
Case
Hey, I didn't come out to play.
36:33
Keith
Yeah,.
36:36
Darick
Derek, come out to play catch. But no, but it was. But I lived in New York for four years and I fell in love with that. Absolutely loved living in the city. I finished off Trans Metropolitans living in Brooklyn and it was a very. And then I also went and lived in a, in Florence, Italy for a year while I was working on that book. But. And it was, that was great because then I was traveling around seeing European cities and learning a lot about, you know, talk about the city as a character. Something that I didn't until I went to war torn places and saw the scars, I didn't really fully understand because America didn't get bombed in World War II, but Italy did, Germany did. London or England did.
37:22
Darick
And so when I would go to these places like Coventry where they have this bombed out church that's left just the way it was, but they've turned it into a memoriam or I'd be. But the. And the more interesting thing I was being in Germany and driving down a street and noticing this beautiful old architecture turn of the not even turn the century. That's here, you know, something from the 1500s. This beautiful ornate building. And right next to it, this glass and steel piece of shit that looked like somebody, you know, put it together with an erector set and panes of glass. And the contrast of the two things side by side, I didn't really understand until I realized, oh, that was where a building got bombed.
38:07
Darick
And they didn't have a lot of money after the war to rebuild another, you know, something as beautiful and as this old building took, so they just threw up something else instead with what they could afford and as quickly as possible. So you see a lot of that in Europe. And it was very educational to me because I started to look at the city that way. When I would sit down to draw, I'd be like, well, why is this building look like that? Or what about that building? Wherever I could put something interesting in, I would, I mean, it got to the point where I just has to, you know, get it done as quickly as possible. But that's where my brain was. At least my heart was in the right place.
38:46
Case
I want to jump over to talking about the rest of the cast since we're talking about, like, kind of designs for things.
38:53
Keith
Yes.
38:53
Darick
You didn't want to talk about Space Beaver.
38:57
Case
I, I love the look. We, we talked quite a bit about Space Beaver the last time I has.
39:01
Darick
A chance to interview.
39:02
Case
So I, I, I feel like I'm going to point people to the Men of Steel episode. Check that out. We'll put a link in the doobly doo.
39:11
Darick
But no, I know this is transmit specific. I'm just kidding. But for the rest of the cast.
39:17
Case
So let's start with Shannon. We love Shannon. We are unapologetic. Stands for Channon on this podcast.
39:23
Darick
Yeah, she's an awesome.
39:26
Case
So first question I have for you about the character. We noticed that there is a passing resemblance between Shannon and Spider's ex wife.
39:36
Darick
That's funny. The irony there is that all of the cast, the main cast of Trans Metropolitans, were based on real life people, friends of mine. What has happened, unfortunately, is somewhere some people have gotten it. No matter how many times I've decried this, they think I based early Spider on Alan Moore. And then he transforms into Grant Morrison, which is silly.
40:05
Case
We talked about that.
40:06
Darick
Yeah, it's really silly because one, it was pre Internet. I really didn't know what Alan Moore looked like, you know, Two, why would Warrens and I be, you know, fanboying over colleagues of ours? And three, Grant has hair Then so. And it was a friend of ours. And so it was weird that people took it there, but people are going to do what they do. What the. The reality is that Spider was based on my friend Andre Ricciardi, who passed away a couple years from cancer. A couple years ago, from cancer. But before he died, he went to work, were making. Because Andre really was Spider in so many ways, which is why I'm like, I gotta make, you know, will you model for me? And he has crazy hair and beard like that and shaved it all off.
40:57
Darick
And I built him a little dummy pair of glasses and he put on a black thing and we drew on him and you know, he model. He is Spider Jerusalem. He made a documentary about getting cancer, thinking he was going to survive it and didn't. And the documentary just came out. It's called Andre is an Idiot. It's getting awards. It burned up sand Sundance and it's getting a ton of award buzz now. And it's fantastic you can find it now. It's. I think it's in theaters at the moment. But the reason I bring that up specifically is one, you'll see Andre looking like Spider because that's the way he used to go around looking with the. With, you know, Spider in the mountain, I should say. He didn't go around bald.
41:38
Darick
But the rest of the cast was mutual friends of ours at the time. So Shannon was his wife, Janice, who you'll see in the documentary as well, because she's by his side as he's going through the cancer. But Janice Ricciardi was my then girlfriend who became my fiance, who became my wife and is now the mother of my children while were making that book. And she's the head in the char. She's Spider's ex wife and they're best friends. So it's a coincidence. But it's also funny because I said to my wife, I want to draw you into the book. She goes, well, I want to be nothing like myself. So she really. It was a lot of fun. She modeled for me. So her giving me the finger and throwing back booze.
42:27
Darick
And I made up the turbo smoke for her because she was a smoker at the time. And. But, you know, it was. But that's. And then Royce is my friend Michael Bryan. He'll show up at conventions every once in a while I'm signing, I'll hey, this is Royce. And they go, you signed too? Yeah, but every. And then Alina was my friend Mary, who actually did my tattoo. She's now A successful tattoo artist. She wasn't when I based the character on her back then, but ironically, she would go into tattoo art, and she's a very celebrated tattoo artist, and I have some of her work on my.
43:03
Keith
Back, but that's awesome. And you mentioned the Love and Rockets connection with. With Yelena as well.
43:08
Darick
Yeah, that was her style. Like, I really loved Hope. He's, like, all black with the glasses and the spiky hair.
43:14
Keith
You know, I'm a better fan, so that's awesome to hear.
43:18
Darick
Love, love, love, love Rockets. That is a big fan.
43:22
Keith
Yeah, 100%.
43:24
Darick
I still think Jaime Hernandez is one of the most unappreciated, underrated artists that's ever worked in the medium, because the simplicity of what that guy can capture with one line. I work hours, and it's like, one line. It looks like an older woman. I don't know if you saw the piece that just came out that he did where. Or he just drew the cast side by side. I don't know if it was a recreation, but he drew the cast in the 80s, and he drew them present day, and they've all gotten old like. Like, you know, they're all in their 50s and 60s now, like he is, but the way he aged them, they're all in the exact same poses, but just the subtle things he did to age them. Amazing. But I don't know why I got off on having Hernandez.
44:04
Darick
Love and Rockets. I love.
44:05
Keith
No, that's my fault. He just.
44:07
Darick
He's one the of my. He's one of my art heroes, and I was very happy that he did covers for us, and one of the only covers I own is one of his, so.
44:15
Case
You mentioned that you were young and scrappy working on this at the time. How would you say.
44:23
Darick
I say young and stupid, but.
44:27
Case
How would you say your. Your style has evolved from here? Like, are there things that wouldn't be able to do it anymore than you just wouldn't do anymore the way that you.
44:36
Darick
Yes and no. Yes and no. I would want to ink it myself still, because there's things I would just be able to do. I have a shortcut to the way I draw now, and I'm working on a new series with Tom Taylor called Necrotious, about zombie dinosaurs and a time machine. And. And I'm putting this intense detail into it, mostly for issue one, because it's a lot of setup, and I'm drawing these teeny, tiny figures, and I'm, like, hating it because there was a point where it Took me four days to ink a page and my inking rate is not that much. And I was like, kind of like putting the math together, like Napoleon Dynamite going dollar an hour, you know.
45:17
Darick
But at the same time, I know these things will live on much longer than this initial paycheck and this first issue it that these things will be looked at. I has some, I stumbled on a YouTube video, somebody reviewing a Punisher Wolverine issue that I did with Garth Ennis back in the day. And they were like kind of nitpicking it and going through it. And I'm like, God, that was 2003. I did that artwork. But they're like present day looking at it, going, oh, that's kind of weird looking. And I'm like, yeah, I has a baby and my deadline was in two days. And you know, and so I look back at Trans Metropolitans with that same sort of eye, like, oh, what did I have to do as opposed to. To what did I want to do?
46:01
Darick
And so how I now pick projects that I am very clear going in, this is my process. I like to have as much time, lead time as possible. I don't like to rush my work if I don't have to. I'm hoping that I am feeling like I've earned that right at this stage. But in my 20s, I was just happy to be working and love having a monthly book. And so my old motto used to be, sometimes good enough has to be. And it's still advice I give to people that are breaking in or trying to show. Like, hey, you know, you can spend a year drawing one issue, but you know, if you want to show people you can handle a monthly book, you got to turn it in a month. So that answered the question. I don't know.
46:49
Case
You did very well. And in fact, you kind of like covered lot of the follow up question I has about the detail being sustainable.
46:56
Darick
Yeah, I feel bad I put Rodney through that. But what was great about working with Rodney is there are cases where he stepped up. And in the beginning I think he burnt out later on too. But because we really did have to do books really fast, we got a very short time. It's amazing that everybody stayed with the team.
47:11
Keith
Yeah.
47:12
Darick
But because we would have to put out an issue and like I would have to pencil them sometime in as little as two weeks and then give those over to Rodney as I was getting them done. But like in issue five, I think it was, Rodney's debut is Spiderwatch's television. And there's a Shot of him in a chair from behind, and he's watching a sumo fight. And I just drew little circles in pencil for the audience. Rodney went in and did this amazing detail on the audience members. Like, he really put a lot of love and effort. Effort in. And I was like, that felt really good because, like, somebody kind of has my back in a way I couldn't. You know what I also ended up learning and why I like to ink my own work is that there are different tools.
47:59
Darick
A pencil can't do what an ink pen can do and vice versa. And so I. And also, it's the same amount of time to detail in pencil as it is to detail with an ink pen, except you're finished, you know, and you can actually control. And now that I can scan my own work and clean it up and add effects to.
48:16
Keith
And it.
48:17
Darick
It like, that's a very satisfying feeling as an artist to. Okay, this is the best I can give you. This is the best I have to do. And I have the final eye on it, you know, but back in those days, you know, you would turn it in and you wouldn't always know what you were going to get. But Rodney was really reliable, so I came to trust him.
48:36
Case
That's. That's great. It's you. You hear some of the horror stories of like, anchors, like, oh, yeah. Like, yeah. So it's good that you has at a good team, even if your preference is to doing it yourself in that whole scenario. So. Shifting to conversations about the tone of the series, we've noted that the series runs the gamut between being serious political commentary and being kind of goofy satire. In particular, we use the phrase Bugs Bunny to describe the second major story arc, the lust for life, the one where the head in the jar is stolen and so forth.
49:15
Darick
Yeah. And Stompanato.
49:16
Case
Yeah.
49:20
Darick
Which Garth Ennis likes so much. That's the reason Terror was in the Boys, because he wanted me to capture that stomping Otto energy.
49:27
Keith
That's great.
49:29
Case
What was it like and what did you do to sort of control the shifting tone when going between something that's like more goofy versus something that's like a bit more serious? Like, you know, like there's the usual, like, long shot comedy, close up tragedy kind of context. Was there anything that you were like, actively doing when you were really trying to sell, like, okay, this is goofy fun versus, like. No, no, it's now. Now it's time for us to be serious.
49:57
Darick
I was just reading the Room, I think, you know, for me, you know, I go back to Shakespeare. Like, every. Every good story should have a little bit of everything in it. There should be a little romance. There should be some comedy. There should be some to balance out the tragedy. There should be a little of something in everything. So for me, it was just, you know, just telling the story. My. My main love for comics and my main passion for doing this is I. I really. I like when people like what I draw, but I really like when they enjoy the story. Story. Because then I feel like I did my job. My job is not to impress you with how well I can draw.
50:35
Darick
My job is to make you feel the story, you know, and suck you in to where when you're done reading it, you feel like you've has an experience as opposed to look to something. And in the 90s, at the time, a lot of comics has gone the way of, like, writing doesn't matter. And it was a lot of, like, splash page and splash panels and, you know, people that. That didn't have a whole lot of skill were getting work. And that wasn't what I got into it for. I has come out of, you know, I started Space Beaver the same year that Alan Moore put out Watchmen and the same time that Dark Knight Returns was published. And it changed the landscape. What was possible just with superheroes, you know. So for me, the idea that.
51:26
Darick
That you draw just to impress, it's like, I'm really more interested in. I'm more impressed with, like, what Dave Gibbons could do. And I'm still a huge Eisner fan. And I go back and look at his work, and I studied his book on storytelling, sequential Art, you know, and just the brilliant things he figured out, like how you can make time move, like this drip coming out of a fossil or a clock moving in the background, you know, to give an idea. So moving back and forth between slapstick comedy and heavy tragedy, really just as a matter of what do you want the audience to feel and where's the joke? And I love comedy, you know, like, I grew up on Bugs Bunny. It's just like you did so. And he's still like, probably my favorite cartoon character. So I love Looney Tunes stuff.
52:18
Darick
I. And, you know, one of the things that. When it came time to do the Boys as a television series, I was asked Kripke, I said, you know, that I recommended that it be funny too. And he agreed with me. He has already thought about that, but that was. He was kind enough to ask me what I wanted the series to be like. And I was like, can't believe you're asking me. But I said, it needs to be funny and because otherwise it's just going to be a long, hard slog and people are going to tune out because it gets really dark. And he was like, yeah, you're absolutely right. So we kind of has the same thing with Trans Metropolitans and that, you know, there was a lot of dark moments in that book.
52:54
Darick
And if it didn't make you laugh once in a while, then, you know, plus, we love Tanner S. Thompson and, like, I love how wacky and over the top that guy was. And Warrens would just write weird stuff too. Like. Like. But then I would take it and do something with it. And for. One of the examples that comes to mind is he. He kicks a guy out the window, and I think he asked him to look like an adult Charlie Brown. And so I went all the way with it and made him really look like a real life adult Charlie Brown. But when he kicks him out the window, he squashes a puppy or a dog and he goes, that's my dinner. Spider juice screams out like, that's my dinner. Yep, don't touch that dog.
53:35
Darick
But I made that dog look like Snoop, you know, like, just as a parody. But that was the. That was. The fun of that book is there was just always, like, Lauren's imagination was completely in a world of its own. And I would. But I could. I don't know. How do I put this? And I mean this humbly. I could meet him on his energy level and we really got the. We really got the band going. That's the way it felt.
54:06
Keith
Follow up question that we've been wondering this entire series. Who hates dogs between you two?
54:11
Darick
Because I love dogs. I have two big ones and a cat. So I think it was Warrens.
54:17
Keith
Okay. Because it just seems like there's dogs constantly. Constantly.
54:21
Darick
Warrens has a. Warrens has a ferret and cats, and he, like, that makes sense.
54:27
Keith
Okay.
54:28
Darick
But I. I don't. I wouldn't go so far as to put words in his mouth, say he hates dogs, but definitely not me. I love dogs. Absolutely. I love. I love dogs and cats. But.
54:37
Keith
Yeah.
54:37
Darick
And my dogs and cat get along great.
54:39
Case
So it's just a reading that we got out of the book.
54:42
Keith
Yeah. We thought it was funny.
54:44
Darick
Yeah.
54:45
Keith
I don't.
54:45
Darick
I don't think it's ever anything we really discussed. I, you know, I didn't. I tried. Not very. I tried very much not to step on his toes or get in his way when he was creating. I Just tried to capture the fire that he would bring to those scripts.
54:58
Case
Yeah, I mean, that's definitely something. Something that we're reading into the. The book. Now, here's a question for you. Trans Metropolitans, like we said, has been very prescient in a lot of ways. Are there things that people are reading into the book that are wrong?
55:12
Darick
Like that just that Alan Moore thing?
55:15
Case
Yeah, but. But I mean, like, in terms of, like, statements about politics, in terms about. About the world, like things that you didn't intend for it to say.
55:22
Darick
That's actually an interesting question, because what I. I didn't know then and has become more and more. It's also like the same with Homelander. There are people that I don't think understand that Spider's not speaking for them or their point of view, but they will grab hold of Spider giving the finger or saying something, and I'm like, no. And Homelander's the bad guy. If you don't get that, you're not paying attention. Attention, you know?
55:52
Keith
Yeah.
55:52
Darick
Like, there was a rally and somebody has dressed up as Homelander with a Trump face, and he was carrying around a go. Somebody dressed up as Biden in a prison outfit and with a funny mask. And I was like, you guys don't understand that the Homelander's the bad guy. Like, you know, these are the people.
56:11
Keith
That just quote, 1984, so.
56:13
Darick
Exactly. But, you know, in the last, you know, the reason I gave that. We're not talking about the boys, but the reason I gave Homelander American flag cape was based on the. The statement or the quote. Like, the last bastion of a scoundrel is patriotism, you know.
56:29
Keith
Yeah.
56:30
Darick
Because people that will wrap themselves in the flag. So I literally wrapped Homelander in a flag. But anyway. But that was kind of the thinking I brought to with. With Trans Metropolitans. But what's funny is that I wasn't always all that political or politically aware when I started on that book. And Warrens really opened my eyes to a lot of stuff that I just wasn't paying attention to. And so I always look at that book as sort of like a rebirth for my. My acuity, because as I read and learned more or as I was working on that series, I started paying attention more. And the more I started paying attention, the more fire and fury I could bring to Spider.
57:12
Darick
And, you know, to this day, it's like I'm kind of like, outspoken on social media, but that's because I'm half a Spider Jerusalem. You know, like, there's a big Part of him, that he is my spirit animal. Like, I wish I could be as cool and angry and brave as Spider is, but I'm not. But I do it through my work. But I. You know, but you can always speak up and you can always point out where the truth.
57:35
Keith
Truth is.
57:35
Darick
And that should never be in question.
57:37
Keith
Hell yeah.
57:39
Case
Do you think there's aspects of Trans Metropolitans that have taken on new meanings since you guys originally created it? Like discussing the first arc, for example, we. We has a whole question about, like, are the trans in this supposed to have any sort of relation to. Up to like, trans people today in conversation?
57:59
Darick
But no out at all. It was really about people getting cosmetic surgery to make themselves look like aliens, because people were actually starting to do that then. So Warrens extrapolated on how far that trend could go, that it becomes a cult. You know, we kind.
58:15
Keith
We kind of came to that conclusion like, that it. Because it was. It was less about, like, your identity so much as like. Like social, you know, social thing.
58:24
Darick
Yeah, it was literally people that.
58:26
Keith
But it was interesting, you know, like.
58:27
Darick
Yeah, yeah, no, that's just a coincidence. I got to be friends with Maglene Visagio, who's trans, because she read into that and interviewed me once. And it wasn't until we talked about it, she realized, like, oh, no, we're not. You know, she took it that it was anti trans. I'm like, no, I don't. I didn't remember feeling that way. I mean, were a lot more. This, you have to remember, too. This book came out in 1997. Seven and like, just like 80s movies now. There's a lot of stuff that has not aged well out of that era.
58:59
Keith
Yeah, but.
59:01
Darick
But I don't think either. Warrens and I has a hateful bone in our bodies, and were definitely champion. The underdogs.
59:07
Keith
No, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. We wasn't so much like that. We were just kind of like. Like the similar name. And then we're kind of like, this is really interesting. Not so much the. The Fred Christ of it all. You know what I mean?
59:18
Darick
For me, I think what he was trying to state. State what he was really trying to get a point is how like, you know, false leaders and cult icons. Cult leaders and how they can start these movements and they get out of control and the. And the innocent people that get hurt in the midst of it. Like that riot that happens in issue three, you know, that was very bloody, which is weird because talk about pressure. Like, it looks like ice now. It looked like the COVID riots and the BLM riots where the. You have all these cops in military gear with. You know. And I has. It was my idea to put Submit now on the shields. But I'm like, God, how prescient was that? Yeah, like again, they transmit fiction again.
59:59
Case
Right.
59:59
Keith
I. I think one of the things that I really like specifically about what we're talking about is these 9 11.
01:00:06
Darick
Oh, I'm sorry.
01:00:06
Keith
Sorry.
01:00:08
Darick
After 9 11, the militarization of the police became a thing. But I was in the middle of the city series when 911 happened. I was living in Brooklyn when 911 happened. But fun fact, fun story. Not really fun, but weird. I was working on a cover for the next issue when the plane hit the tower. I has just gone to bed about 15 minutes before the first plane hit the World Trade Center. But the COVID that I has spent the night working on was Spy Spider as like a Godzilla like character kicking over buildings that were collapsing and little people falling through the air. I has spent the whole night leading up to 911 drawing that in detail.
01:00:52
Keith
Wow.
01:00:52
Darick
So I went to bed having finished that cover. My wife woke me. I saw the plane hit, or I saw the New York one with the plane. I said, oh, well, that was an accident. Went back to bed like everybody else experienced. But I was in New York. I could. I could have photos out my window of that tower. But then I went back to bed and then we found a second plane hit. You know, obviously it was on and we didn't. There was no more sleep for a couple days, but.
01:01:18
Keith
Right.
01:01:18
Darick
But it was so weird to me to this day that of all the things I've drawn for Trans Metropolitans, of all the covers I've worked on for that book, that would be the subject matter that just still gives me the willies.
01:01:31
Keith
That's crazy because we actually were talking about the presence of 911 in the series and trying to nail down about when it happened, you know, like when the creative would have been in.
01:01:41
Darick
Yeah, it was towards around issue 50. I remember the issue I has to do really quick because of 911 opens with Royce sitting on a bench feeding pigeons, having just lost his job.
01:01:51
Keith
I remember that one. Yeah. Okay. The point I was making for is that one thing, because were talking about the trans. I love that all these alternative lifes styles are introduced and a lesser storytelling team would have just made them a joke, you know what I mean? But all these, like the trans, we get this amazing transient character late in the series that plays an integral part in the climax. You know, yeah, she doesn't make it out. We get Tico, who's one of Case's favorite characters in the entire thing that, you know, justifies these. These cloud people. And there's just like. And the fact that. That Spider doesn't look down on them, I think is just so cool. Obviously, the same thing. You know what I mean?
01:02:30
Darick
That is one of the things that I. That's what made me, really, why I still remain very fiercely proud of the series, is because I really loved Spider's humanity. And one of the. The best. My favorite issue remains Another cold morning where the woman is thawed out and thrown into the throne of the wolves, even though she signed up to. To, you know, be protected. And she kind of claws her way back to humanity, and he kind of stays in touch with her throughout the series. But Mary, the one. The revivalist, you know, like, I thought that was one of the most interesting takes on the future that we explored, and I love drawing that issue as well, but I thought that was fascinating.
01:03:12
Case
For both of us. That's our favorite issue.
01:03:14
Keith
I think I would.
01:03:15
Darick
Yeah, I get that a lot. I was surprised that we. We didn't get more of an award kind of attention on that, and. But we did for, like, number 19, monstering, but. Or that arc, but it was interesting. But I love that issue. And I just moved to Italy and drew some of those backgrounds, sitting in the Piazza di Si in Maria and. And seeing Italian architecture for the first time. I. I'd never been to Italy, yet I moved there talking about crazy. But now I love it. It's my second home. But that was really fascinating to me to experience that culture shock while drawing that issue, because in a lot of ways, I was going through what that character was going through. I was a fish out of water. I was surrounded by a language I didn't speak.
01:04:07
Darick
Everything felt like it was moving too fast. You know, I has to learn my way around, you know, the city and how things worked. And this was like all pre Internet, pre cell phone. Like, it was a very different world there. I go back now, and it's like a. It's like being at home. You know, I can use my phone there. My phone just switches over automatically, and, you know, I can. Everything is modernized. It's. They were. They were on the WI Fi kick before were right. So because the payphones worked so badly in Italy back in the 90s, people rushed to get their own private telefonino, which they called it. And so that having that cellular network as the Basis for everybody in the cities, they just naturally started spreading out. So Wi Fi tends to be very good in Italy.
01:04:59
Case
Here's a question I didn't have a note to ask about, but I realized that we talked a lot about it in the course of the series. As you pointed. This comes in 97. This, frankly, is coming off of your experience with Malibu, which we talked about how Marvel basically acquired it just to get the color team. What was it like working at this point where Photoshop and computer graphics and all these things were becoming part of the industry that they hadn't been?
01:05:26
Darick
Yeah, well, I think it just was making in. In some cases. I really liked what it did for the work. I like the more luxurious color because that flat color that we used to have was very limited. And I did all my New warriors with that old style coloring. And I would do these elaborate things that required flames and water and it's just, you know. And John Rosas did the best he could with what he did. He wasn't bad at it or anything, but there'd be strange choices, like, why is that all pink? You know? But they has to really just work with what they has. So I like that came in. And that's one of the things I liked about working in Malibu when I did, is that they were on the cutting edge of that. That technology.
01:06:08
Darick
But for myself, it really didn't affect what I was doing. I was just penciling a comic like any other comic. So I'm not really sure how that applies to Trans Metropolitans. Except Nathan Eyrington was very good at his coloring at the time, and he was one of the. He was an essential piece of that team as well.
01:06:29
Case
Yeah, I guess I was just curious because there are things like. Like the effects that were done to make, like, screens that characters were appearing on.
01:06:38
Darick
Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. I think that would been. In a lot of cases that would have been Clem Robbins department or Nathan's. I'm really not sure. But they would do cutouts in those days. They has to cut that. I got the original art and it's. It's like pasted down. You know, they shrink things down and paste them. So it wasn't really digital. Like, I didn't see the digital stuff really kick in about. I don't know, I would say around 2003 is what I really remember, like working on Wolverine is when I really started to see the extent of how things were being assembled and the digital impact on how comics were processed and created and looked oh, wow.
01:07:18
Case
Yeah. Just because, like, because there are really good effects going on throughout Trans Metropolitans. I assumed that there was more.
01:07:25
Darick
That's just. That's just talented people and then good editors and people that cared, you know, Like, I think everybody that worked on that book has a certain level of passion for it because it was not an easy project. The deadlines were tight and the industry was a mess. Like, you know, we just come out like, Marvel has declared bankruptcy. You know, it's like, how insane is that to imagine now?
01:07:49
Case
Yes. I mean, now they've got the. The Sugar daddy or Sugar Mommy in the form of Disney. So.
01:07:53
Darick
Yeah, but I'm saying, like, at the time, like, you're telling me you can't sell Spider man to kids. It's like telling me you can't start. Sell pancakes to starving people. Like, what? You know, that's. That's got to be clearly, you know, somebody. Somebody goes.
01:08:08
Case
Certainly a very different era.
01:08:10
Darick
Very different era.
01:08:13
Case
So last question I have for you is looking at the information density that is in Trans Metropolitans, from the advertisements to the way that things are depicted as, like, holograms or various types of things, and then comparing that with the way modern media has gotten today.
01:08:32
Keith
Are we.
01:08:33
Case
We cursed? Like, have. Have you created? Like, did you predict a timeline that we would just be driven insane by little rectangles everywhere?
01:08:42
Darick
I did not know. I mean, that's the irony is of all the things that we thought up for Trans Metropolitans, none of us predicted the iPhone. You know, we kind of has a feel for the Internet, but we did not have an idea for the iPhone. Like, so for me, it's like, if you look in the issue one, when he gets to the city, there's people walking around with a lot of headgear. And for me, it's like, that is machines that are doing all the things that an iPhone can do, like AirPods and an iPhone and you can watch a movie, you can listen to music and, you know, have your own private Internet experience. But with. I thought, you know, people would put on VR helmets with. That would have trackers in them and, you know. Yeah, you put on the Apple Vision.
01:09:26
Case
Pros and not the iPhones.
01:09:27
Darick
Yeah, you could be on. Like, I said, I have picture. I'll send you. But like, but the idea that, yeah, the Apple Vision Pro is what those helmets are doing, you know, But I didn't know. You know, it just. We. It was funny that, again, I thought I was drawing this outlandish future that was much further away than it ended up being. I Didn't think I'd see any of that stuff in my lifetime.
01:09:50
Keith
Right.
01:09:51
Darick
Especially the collapse of the media and integrity and things like that. That. Like that. That's just depressing.
01:09:58
Keith
Right. We talked a lot about the. The political playbook of the Smiler. And we're like, this is disturbingly familiar.
01:10:08
Darick
Like, well, what's really funny is that every. Every political election cycle, somebody thinks they've found the Smiler. Like, oh, it's this guy, it's that guy. And they get any picture of a smiling politician with a haircut, good haircut on either side of the aisle, and pin the Smiler on him. And like, most recently, they're using Gavin Newsome.
01:10:33
Case
And I was about to say, yeah,.
01:10:35
Darick
Yeah, Gavin Newsome was, you know, mayor of San Francisco when I was drawing that book, you know, so, no, it was. He was inspired by Warren's description was Tony Blair with Jimmy Carter's smile. And the idea was that he looked innocuous and he sold himself as, like a good guy. And that's certainly what some of the worst politicians do.
01:11:01
Case
So, Keiths, this is your chance to sort of voice anything that we've sort of missed in terms of talking about the series. It doesn't have to be necessarily a question for Derek. It could just be something that you're. That is coming from you decompressing at this point. Is there anything you've got?
01:11:21
Keith
Just. I. I want to express how much I really enjoy the character designs, how unique and distinct they are. One thing we talked about quite a bit is the height difference between the filthy assistants, like, was always really distinct. And it's just. It just gave them such character. Just that one little thing that was.
01:11:42
Darick
Important to me, that they would have that dichotomy. I like that. I. I like the idea of a.
01:11:48
Keith
Tall and short, you know, and just because the two of those.
01:11:52
Darick
Shan was supposed to be his bodyguard, so I kind of imagined. What was her name? Mira Sovina at the time was like sort of my physical model for her.
01:12:02
Keith
Gotcha. And then just. Yeah, because, like, I mean, I like Spider, but I was here for the film. The assistants, I absolutely adored them run through and so I just really like that. But then also you mentioned Royce. Royce was great. Just all these characters, even the one or two shot characters that I just immediately clicked with. We talked about the transient late in the series and we opened this issue with her on the run and we spend like the first, I want to say, 10 pages with just her and just that time of getting to know her and seeing her and this hopeful smile, I was like, this is. This locks you in. This is story.
01:12:40
Darick
Thank you.
01:12:41
Keith
So, yeah, that was, like, something that really impacted me. So I just wanted to mention that definitely.
01:12:45
Darick
No, I really appreciate that. That. That is exactly that. That warms my heart to know that, you know, a lot of times I'd have to do scenes that were quiet. Like, speaking of another cold morning, like, the last three pages of that, there's not a single Word on them. That was. That was my job to make that. To sell that. That ending, you know, so if you could feel what Spider's feeling and you were drawn into that moment, then I feel like that was my responsibility. So if I can. If the quiet stuff worked, if the characters made you like them and root for them or ate them, that's, you know, that's me trying to tell you what I was doing for Warrens. You know, like, I wanted Warren's story to resonate with you. Like, it resonated with me.
01:13:38
Darick
I wanted you to love these characters or hate these characters as much as I did.
01:13:43
Keith
Yeah, definitely. And just. Yeah, just. It is such. It's Spider's book and there are, you know, several main characters, but it really felt like an ensemble. It really felt like it is.
01:13:54
Darick
Just, like you said, the city is a good character. I agree with that. I don't. You know, it's not called Spider Jerusalem. It's called Trans Metropolitans.
01:14:01
Keith
Yeah. But I loved that. I just like having this variety of characters. It's just. It was great. I really liked it. So. Yeah, that's what I wanted to add. So.
01:14:08
Darick
No, I appreciate that. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Thank you for telling me.
01:14:11
Keith
Of course.
01:14:12
Case
Yeah. Here. Here's a space just for me to just praise you and. And thank you again for the work. Because, like, I was 16 when I discovered this work, and I. I read it. Wow. I. I read it through trades initially, and then I. It was, like, around, like, issue, like, 45 or so when I, like, jumped on the singles and I read it to the end of the book and. And loved it. And this was a series that definitely, this is how I got into Hunter S. Thompson and by way of meant that and. And just other, like, writing in general and so forth, like, opened me up to, like, looking at modern politics and to looking at the state of the world. So this. This was a really influential work just in terms of, like, my, like, awakening as an adult.
01:14:56
Darick
Yeah.
01:14:57
Case
Into the world.
01:14:58
Darick
Like I said, I kind of has the same experience working on the book, so I Feel you.
01:15:03
Case
So, so thank you for like, for this work and thank. Thank you for taking the time to chat with us about it. Like, it's been incredible for us to like, go on this journey and reread it and to have the light at the end of the tunnel being like. In addition to us, like, reading through this, like, awesome book. We got a chance to talk to you about it.
01:15:23
Darick
Well, thank you. I mean, that's a really gratifying thing because, I mean, I start to look at the calendar and realize how many years it's been since I was doing that book. And the mirror doesn't lie, but so it's really. I remember being on an airplane and finishing reading or in the middle of reading Maus by Art Spiegel. And at the time, all I was doing was superhero work. And I was literally tears running down my face on an airplane because the work was so profound. And I was like, I want to do something that matters. I want to contribute something that will resonate and, you know, with my career. I want to do a Watchman. I want to do something like this before I, you know, kick off and I, you know, it.
01:16:09
Darick
Transmed has stood the test of time, and that's really powerful considering, you know, how many things were you predicting? The future just look silly now where ours looks eerily on point, and yet there's still something to be, I don't know, almost hopeful about. There's something in that story that remained hopeful, which is why I tried to explain it. It was never a dystopia. It was a modern world with a lot of messed up problems, but it was never dystopia, you know, and as we go through our own problems in the modern world, it's good to remember this is a passing time. This sucks right now. But, you know, I'm sure the people that were in the midst of the Civil War back when were pretty upset watching in Atlanta burn, you know, so it's.
01:16:56
Darick
This is, this is our time in the hot seat, you know, and my father has me late in life. He was a World War II veteran, and something he always reminded me of is like the pendulum swings. So don't get too hung up on anything. It's gonna. It will go another direction because human beings have been doing this dance for far too long. And, you know, there was once a time when Rome was a mighty empire. And now it's a great place to get pizza. Yeah. Know, once was the time if you went to Berlin, you wouldn't be able to go through. You'd have to go through checkpoints. Now. It's one of the friendliest cities I've visited. It's lovely city and you know, the Germans are lovely people, but once upon a time and not that long ago, so it's happening to us now.
01:17:45
Darick
And the other problem with life and, and getting philosophical at the end here, but the problem with time and if you don't, the truest thing is like, if you don't learn from history, you're destined to repeat it. And what people take for granted at this era is that we has it really good for a long time in America and now. And I think we got lazy and I think we got easily manipulated into not really knowing what went into making the country what it was. And some people have figured out how to exploit that by actually sadly going after the people with probably really good hearts and good intentions, not knowing where their blind spots are. And it's important to not have your own. And it's also important to remember that, you know, we're all in this together, regardless of what hat you wear.
01:18:47
Darick
And that is the essence of what I think comes through in Trans Metropolitans is that through the worst of it, Spider's main beacon, his rallying cry is, this is really happening. This is the truth. And the prescient tagline of like, in the future lies the truth and the truth is obsolete. You know, we are living through that time, but it's our time. We're, we're adults, we've got kids. Our parents were just as freaked out when they were going through their time, and their parents were freaked out when it was their time. There was always some kind of crazy happening in the world that they has to contend with and worry about, like, is this going to be the last generation? It will there be a tomorrow? You know, and in that regard, that's what makes Trans Metropolitans kind of appealing.
01:19:44
Darick
It's like, oh, hey, there is a future. You know, it's weird and it's up, but it's there. We're all still around. There's still people, those still cities. You can, you know, your octopus pizza might taste a little weird, but you can get pizza.
01:19:58
Keith
Yeah.
01:19:58
Darick
You know, it might be clone cheese, but you can get pizza, you know.
01:20:02
Case
Yeah. With caribou eyes.
01:20:04
Keith
Yeah.
01:20:04
Darick
Bucket of them, you know, and maybe those things are delicious. Have you ever has caribou eye?
01:20:10
Case
You know, can't say no. Can't say I haven't.
01:20:13
Darick
I has a sheep Sigh. Once with Warrens, but that's another story.
01:20:17
Case
Well, Derek, thank you so much for. For coming on and chatting with us about.
01:20:22
Darick
Hey, it was my pleasure. Thanks. I really appreciate that you guys are, you know, your passion for the. My old work is very heartwarming, and I'm glad that you guys got something out of it, especially knowing that Keiths has just read it for the first time, that it resonated with him in some way. It's very gratifying. Thank you.
01:20:39
Keith
Yeah, definitely.
01:20:40
Case
Yeah. This has been my chance to be an evangelist for the series, so.
01:20:44
Darick
Outstanding. Pre trial brother.
01:20:45
Keith
Yeah.
01:20:47
Case
So where can people find you and follow you these days?
01:20:50
Darick
Well, if you want to hear me bitch about politics, I'm over on Blue sky doing that every morning. But I have a website, DerekRobertson.com you can go get a hold of me for commissions original art. You can contact me through there. And I'm working on a brand new series with Tom Taylor called Necrotatious for Vertigo comics. It should be out later this year. I'm very excited about it. I think it may be the best first issue I've ever drawn. So they've given me lots of rope to hang myself with, and I appreciate it. And Tom is an excellent collaborator. But I don't have to brag about Tom. He created Deceased and won the Eisner last year. So we know how talented. Thomas.
01:21:29
Case
Yeah. Awesome. Well, people should absolutely check out everything you've got going on. They should check out your website.
01:21:34
Keith
They.
01:21:34
Case
They should commission you if they. If they have the means. Because. Because you're awesome. And so thank you. Thank you again for coming on.
01:21:42
Darick
And I'm still a working man, so. Yes. Get a hold of me about commissions. Yeah, despite it's. Despite what you might think. Not rich.
01:21:51
Case
Okay, Keiths, where can people find you and follow you?
01:21:55
Keith
Yeah, so the best place to find me is going to be on Blue sky as well. You can find my account for my comic book review podcast. We have issues at. We have issues bscy Social. And you can also find my personal account at Keiths Asissues Bsky Social. And so make sure to check it out on there. I will be. I'll be certainly reviewing Derek's new book because I'm doing all the new Vertigo stuff. Stuff. So expect a review there.
01:22:22
Darick
Okay. I hope. Hope you. I think you're gonna like it.
01:22:24
Keith
Yeah, I bet you already described enough for me to already like it, so it's good stuff.
01:22:29
Darick
If you like an ensemble cast, you got a good one coming. We're working hard at making them interesting. And Tom's. Tom's been thinking about this one for a long time, so it really shows.
01:22:39
Keith
And then the only other place to find me is on Instagram, which is we have issues pod because someone took my account name. So make sure to follow us on there because we are starting to use that a little bit more. Other than that, the only other place you could find me would be on our Discord, which I think case is going to tell us about right now.
01:22:56
Case
Yeah, the Discord server for Certain POV Media is a great place to come chat with us. You can find a link in our show notes or in the description of the episodes, or if you go to certainpov.com you can find a link and come chat with us on Discord directly. It's a great place. Even Derek is technically part of our server because I forced him to join it long ago for an interview. So. So you could even theoretically ping him. But come and hang out and chat with us because it's a great place.
01:23:24
Case
If you don't feel like using the Discord thing for the social media stuff for me, you can find me on most social media platforms at case Aiken, with the exception of Instagram, where I'm holding on 4 dear life for my aim screen name from high school, which was quetzalcoatl5q u e t Z A L C o A T L 5 as you can tell, I was pretentious in high school by evidence of the fact that I was obsessed with Trans Metropolitans. So check me out there. Check out the Patreon for the network patreon.com certainpowmedia. You can join and support and make shows like this a thing. And if you support at our executive producer level, you get a shout out at the end of every episode.
01:24:09
Case
So we have a couple people to thank at the end of this episode, which is our executive producers and that is Micah McCaw, Carter Hallett, Sean Muir Lee, Gregor Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Master, Piero Casey and Nancy Aiken, Adam Sampter and Keiths Lettin.
01:24:25
Keith
That's me.
01:24:27
Case
You can be like these awesome people and join at the executive producer tier. But honestly, even if you join the Patreon at the free tier, I am doing a nerdy essay a week and then also a DND essay a week. And so that's awesome. Free content even. Even at the free tier. But like I said, if you help keep the lights on, that's great. Since the last episode that we recorded, I have has a baby. So.
01:24:52
Darick
So your wife must have been very surprised.
01:24:54
Case
Yeah, I know.
01:24:56
Keith
Out of nowhere.
01:24:57
Darick
Out of nowhere.
01:24:58
Case
Like a heater.
01:24:59
Darick
First thing from.
01:25:02
Case
No, Robbie is great, but. But it is difficult having kids and it is difficult being a podcaster with family. So. So anything you can do to make it easier for us to keep this going would be appreciated. Aside from that, check out the stuff that we've got going on@ certainpow.com we've got tons of great shows. We have Issues is a great show. The shows that I host are also awesome. There's Men of Steel. We interviewed Derek about that a long time ago. There's another Pass, which is a movie analysis show that I host. Both of those are going great. We've got Trade School, which is a love letter to comics, where each episode a guest host comes on and talks for five to 15 minutes about a comic book trade paperback that they love and why they loved it. That's.
01:25:46
Case
That's a great series that. That is just about promoting comic books as a whole. And, and yeah, so much fun. Yeah, it's just. Just a great old time. But otherwise, yeah. Appreciate you being on this ride. Appreciate everyone for checking out the Word from tomorrow. But that said, this has been that adventure. This has been the Word from tomorrow. Have a great week. Cpov. Certainpov.com.